Heroes For Hire #2 *spoilers*

[Harold of the Rocks]

Agreed, I just did a search with no results. Looks like this is it.

I'll give a quick review of each for what they are worth...

Heroes for Hire #2
Misty & Co. confront Tony Stark about Bill Foster's death. Basically Tony maintains that he only wanted a peaceful resolution to all of this, that Bill's death was a tragedy, but he also knew what he was getting into by becoming an unregistered combatant. Misty and Tony go off to speak privately, where Misty asks about the 'Super-Villain' Bloodhounds she's hearing rumors about. Tony counters that her team is also composed of several 'former' villains. She assures them that she wants to convince them they are doing the right thing, that's why she confronted him in front of the team. All of them support the SHRA, except Black Cat and Paladin, who are only in it for the $. As their leader, she has to voice their concerns to show her support for them. Tony concedes that she is doing the right thing, only their methods differ (his being the nano-implants as a 'leash on his bloodhounds' -- my words, not in the book, mind you). Misty states she wants to try to convince Cap to turn himself in voluntarily, Tony says he'll buy her anything she wants if she can do that.
The team then consults a "Mr. Qui", a martial art mystic of sorts to locate Cap, as no other methods are currently effective. Using a Chinese demon-dragon creature, they get Cap's location revealed. As they are about to depart, Misty gets a call on her cell phone... Benny Simmons, a detective friend has found something they should see right away...
In a building where the cops thought they were going to sting a meth lab, they find an abandoned lab with crazed out medical equipment and some alien-looking organs preserved. They go to visit Reed Richards, and learn that the 'biopsy' they are looking at is a hybrid of Skrull DNA and an unknown synthetic organic material. The hypothesis is that somebody might be doing Skrull organ transplants to somebody (presumably Superhumans who don't want to register), so they can acquire shape-shifting abilities. Tarantula engages in conversation with Reed that reveals her to be quite the intellectual. So much so, that she tells him if he can provide plans for a device to track the sysnthetic-organic material, she can build it!
The team goes on to the location Cap & Co. are hiding, it's concealed by some holographic tech. Misty appeals to Cap (knowing he can observe them) to let them in, that they are only there to talk. After a few persuasive pleas, Cap let's 'em in. After Misty and Colleen greet Cage, the team (mostly Misty and Shang Chi) appeal to Cap and Luke to come in peacefully. That isn't going anywhere, and suddenly Paladin hits a button on his wrist, which transmits their location to a S.H.I.E.L.D. Hellicarrier. It is instantly detected by Cap's tech, and we learn that Paladin is acting alone, betraying his own team. He releases some gas with neurotoxins, and engages everyone there. Long story short, he is the only one left standing, and on the final panel/page, he contacts S.H.I.E.L.D. to notify them that he has secured Captain America...


I found it to be a pretty entertaining issue overall, and nice artwork. The role the Heroes for Hire fill in Civil War is well-suited for them, and it was interesting to see how the different members of the team bring a different dynamic. Humbug is almost sycophantic, especially in the presence of Cap, Tarantula is definitely an enigma still, with more 'layers' added (I'm thinking of the Shrek/Donkey discussion about layers and onions and parfait... but I digress). Considering how this ends, the development seems pretty major to the Civil War storyline for being in a 'tie-in'. My speculation is that Paladin does not succeed in bring Cap in. I'm glad I picked up this tie-in, it fits nicely into the Civil War event. Where this goes next will be rather interesting...

[sinister626]

Now we can see why they had to delay HfH #2....that woulda spoiled some things...

[Valen]

Now we can see why they had to delay HfH #2....that woulda spoiled some things...
Yeah, it's funny how many books they did have to delay for the release of CW 4. ASM, H4H, Frontline, and Cap America (I think) all flow directly from it.

[Hiromi]

HfH was fun again. The dragon made me laugh, I love this mix of Marvel kung fu and more conventional characters. Also Paladin's getting some good panel time.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I thought both books were pretty rocking, but HfH took the honours, no question. No problem with the quality of YA/R, I'm just unfamiliar with both teams, so having them both lumped together leaves me in a constant state of "Wait, who's that? Is that the one that does magic? Which one's the shapeshifter? Do those two normally work together, or are they strangers-" and so on. With HfH, I know what I'm dealing with - enough, anyway.

I think it's pretty obvious that Paladin's not going to bring Cap in. Orka saves the day, perhaps? We didn't see him around this issue - maybe Misty and Colleen decided to keep him in reserve for just such an emergency. Either way, Paladin's arse is fired, and we're one step closer to the all-female super-team I keep hoping for (oh, I can stand Orka and Humbug, and Shang-Chi's okay, in an amusing Bruce-Lee-clone kind of way).

[sephirothskiller]

HFH: I liked this issue as much as a guy who hates the main character can. I don't know why but for some reason I always see her as sort of a "Crime fighting Queen Latifah." I have no idea why.

YA/Runaways: Personally, I thought that the characters seemed rediculously incompetant in this issue. Where is Eli's invunerability? Or Chase's knife? And since when does Nico have such a hard time with spells? (Not to mention that repeating a spell causes a backfire, not nothing.) Of course the one thing that remains consistant is that Xavin is out immediately.

"Are you an angel?" Wtf???!!

I really like the weird art though, its just different and cool, the colouring could be a bit better though, as the colorist tends to make everyone look the same in his tones and shade.

[Blackcat]

I think it's pretty obvious that Paladin's not going to bring Cap in. Orka saves the day, perhaps? We didn't see him around this issue - maybe Misty and Colleen decided to keep him in reserve for just such an emergency. Either way, Paladin's arse is fired, and we're one step closer to the all-female super-team I keep hoping for (oh, I can stand Orka and Humbug, and Shang-Chi's okay, in an amusing Bruce-Lee-clone kind of way).

I think that's the whole issue here. Misty etc. only wanted to talk, but Paladin is in it for the money and was probably approached by SHIELD to betray his teammmates.

Orka might save the day and don't forget Tarantula was not on the scene as well.

I for one won't believe it will be Paladin who brings in Cap America and Luke Cage.

I do find Tarantula a very intreging and interesting character, a shame she will be kicked of HfH soon.:( (according to the sollitations)

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I do find Tarantula a very intreging and interesting character, a shame she will be kicked of HfH soon.:( (according to the sollitations)
Indeed? That's a shame, I like her - she brings conflict and dissent into the 'core group' without having to have Misty and Colleen at odds, which wouldn't be realistic for friends like them on a regular basis.

Hopefully her departure will prove to be just a mechanism for a character arc - say she gets stab-happy and kills someone she shouldn't have, Misty and Colleen kick her out, and after a "Yeah, like I care," reaction she realises that she does care, and has to work to regain their trust and be accepted back.

So far as I know, this is the only girl-dominated team there is, versus all the super-teams where there's only one or two token females - I'd be sad to see the balance shifted.

[Blackcat]

Why is that circle out of Mysti's hair. Is she shot there or just her new look?

[Ryan K]

Eh. I wasn't particularly fond of this issue.

The main reason is I just can't get behind the idea that Misty wouldn't blame Iron Man or Reed Richards at all for Goliath's death. Sorry, in my mind they committed manslaughter.

I so wish this book had absolutely nothing to do with Civil War.

[DoctorDoom]

ahhhh that crazy Kung fu kid...I have a feeling Shang Chi has a plan... remember the last thing he said in the book was (to cap) , "Do you trust me?". I think that indictates that he has something up his sleeve, or else why would he ask cap that?

[mattx110]

he probably did ona them induced zen coma thingies... sly bastard ;-)

[The Shadow]

The main reason is I just can't get behind the idea that Misty wouldn't blame Iron Man or Reed Richards at all for Goliath's death. Sorry, in my mind they committed manslaughter.
They did commit manslaughter... but Goliath's death was a direct result of their actions... that's why she'd blame them.

If THEY hadn't cloned Thor, if THEY had better precautions, if THEY had more control, if THEY knew this might happen THEY shouldn't have done it.

[Ryan K]

They did commit manslaughter...

So . . . wait . . . are we on the same page?

[Young Avenger]

I enjoyed the issue. Jenkins should take note from the writers of these tie-in issues. This is the most positive light I've seen of the pro-side.

[Vaal]

I enjoyed the issue. Jenkins should take note from the writers of these tie-in issues. This is the most positive light I've seen of the pro-side.
Right up until the sudden, but inevitable betrayal.

[Young Avenger]

Right up until the sudden, but inevitable betrayal.

Paladin is a mercenary. He has no alliences.

[Zel]

Why is that circle out of Mysti's hair. Is she shot there or just her new look?

I think it's just her hairstyle, but, yeah it does look like someone shot a laser through her afro.

[Vaal]

Paladin is a mercenary. He has no alliences.
Exactly. He's a mercenary. Therefore someone paid him to do that.

[The Shadow]

So . . . wait . . . are we on the same page?
Sort of... I think Misty WOULD blame Reed and Tony though.

[The Shadow]

Exactly. He's a mercenary. Therefore someone paid him to do that.
SHIELD did.

He registered, works for them now and they paid him to take down Captain America. Cap would be the primary objective... and Paladin accomplished it (or did he???)

[Ryan K]

Sort of... I think Misty WOULD blame Reed and Tony though.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I had a problem with the fact that she didn't in the book.

[Meatwad]

does anyone elso think that shang chi switched places with cap and is in his uniform?

[Nate Palm]

does anyone elso think that shang chi switched places with cap and is in his uniform?

I don't know about switching clothes but it does seem ShangChi did something off panel.

It was kinda weak that a C-list character was able to beat Cap, Cage, and the entire HfH all at once. Guess from now on all the Marvel heroes should carry around Paladin's Special 'I Win' Gas.

[StoneGold]

does anyone elso think that shang chi switched places with cap and is in his uniform?
I hope not. "Hey, why is Cap Asian all of a sudden?"

[The Confessor]

I enjoyed this issue a lot and thought it was superior to #1. There was some really good characterisation in this issue with Misty, Collen and Paladin particularly. I also really enjoyed the whole sleuthing, detective work aspect of the story too...I'm really warming to these characters now. I was a little unconvinced of the merits of this title after issue #1 but this issue has restored my faith. I just hope the series can continue to be this strong.

I agree with the general consensus that this is definitely not where we'll be seeing Captain America captured by S.H.E.I.L.D. Shang-Chi, Orka or Tarantula are bound to have some kind of plan up their sleeves.

One other thing, is it me or are they really over-emphasizing the whole 'Humbug is really weird and creepy' thing? There were two or three really overt references to it in this issue. It seems to me that the writers are trying just a little too hard to make us think of Humbug as creepy. I mean, all of these characters dress up in spandex and have unusual powers. I don't find Humbug any more odd than Tarantula based on what we've seen so far.

Do any of you people who read this title truly find Humbug to be an ickey or creepy character? Just wondering because this was a small detail that bugged me a bit as I was reading.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I mean, all of these characters dress up in spandex and have unusual powers. I don't find Humbug any more odd than Tarantula based on what we've seen so far.
From Daughters of the Dragon #2:

8-Ball: "Threatening me? Oh please, what are you going to do, sic your filthy roaches on me?"
Humbug: "Do you know what myiasis is?"
8-Ball: "The nickname your boyfriend in the joint gave you?"
Humbug: "Traumatic myiasis is a devastating and eventually fatal condition caused by the feeding and development of fly larvae or maggots in living tissue, specifically in body orifices. You might not notice when the blowfly laid her eggs in a cut or a pore; you don't know her maggots are eating you until the damage has been done. Blowfly maggots can devour a full-grown elephant in seven days. I'd give you twelve hours, tops."

So in summary, if he doesn't say anything else like that until, say, 2008, then he can complain about people calling him creepy.

I kind of love him, but he's seriously bizarre - yes, even by the standards of costumed superheroes. I do like the weird kind of little brother/big sister relationship developing between him and Colleen.

[The Confessor]

I kind of love him, but he's seriously bizarre - yes, even by the standards of costumed superheroes.

OK, I'll give you that one...he probably is a pretty bizarre hero. I haven't read Daughters Of The Dragon, so I was basing my comments on the two issues of Heroes For Hire we've seen so far.

Still, I think the writers are really pushing that fact a little too much with the dialogue in this series. They would have done better to actually show us Humbug doing something creepy or ickey to someone with his powers, rather than just keep having other characters tell us that they think he's creepy.

I believe that's one of the basic rules of film making too...don't tell us, show us.

[jackolover]

One other thing, is it me or are they really over-emphasizing the whole 'Humbug is really weird and creepy' thing? There were two or three really overt references to it in this issue. It seems to me that the writers are trying just a little too hard to make us think of Humbug as creepy. I mean, all of these characters dress up in spandex and have unusual powers. I don't find Humbug any more odd than Tarantula based on what we've seen so far.

Do any of you people who read this title truly find Humbug to be an ickey or creepy character? Just wondering because this was a small detail that bugged me a bit as I was reading.

Yeah, it was over-emphasised, now that you mention it. It seems like an overt decision by the writers. We'll just have to wait and see why thy did it.

[jackolover]

Who is this Paladin? You say he is a C lister, yet he takes down 5 maybe 6 people, with Cap no less? Like another poster says, all the heros got to have this hero snooze gas now. Has this Paladin done anything like this before?

And what is cap saying to Kung Fu kid - I can't leave Luke behind? He sounds like a woose, not the take charge soldier of countless battles. Either this Paladin is that good, or the character portrayals are a little out.

Good explaination of the Skrull organ dilema by Reed and Tarantula.
Good confrontation between IM and Misty.

And posters are right. Misty does not go into a situation without backup. Appearances aren't always what they seem.

I'm a bit curious as to Black Cats giving advice about Cap to Bug man. Has Felicia even met cap?

[Blackcat]

I'm a bit curious as to Black Cats giving advice about Cap to Bug man. Has Felicia even met cap?
Black cat and Cap met eachother once in Infinity War, where she and Black Widow volentered to take a look at Hawkeye and Spiderman who had been attacked.

[Haunt]

From Daughters of the Dragon #2:

8-Ball: "Threatening me? Oh please, what are you going to do, sic your filthy roaches on me?"
Humbug: "Do you know what myiasis is?"
8-Ball: "The nickname your boyfriend in the joint gave you?"
Humbug: "Traumatic myiasis is a devastating and eventually fatal condition caused by the feeding and development of fly larvae or maggots in living tissue, specifically in body orifices. You might not notice when the blowfly laid her eggs in a cut or a pore; you don't know her maggots are eating you until the damage has been done. Blowfly maggots can devour a full-grown elephant in seven days. I'd give you twelve hours, tops."

So in summary, if he doesn't say anything else like that until, say, 2008, then he can complain about people calling him creepy.

I kind of love him, but he's seriously bizarre - yes, even by the standards of costumed superheroes. I do like the weird kind of little brother/big sister relationship developing between him and Colleen.

wouldn't that be the other way around? Humbug was a college professor for awhile before turning to crime. Colleen's of similar age to the original X-Men. anyways, i don't like the character. i would gladly pay the Foolkiller or Deadpool to put a bullet in his head. and just what the hell is behind them making him a good guy anyways? were there not enough insect-controlling superheroes?

[Markavian]

Eh. I wasn't particularly fond of this issue.

The main reason is I just can't get behind the idea that Misty wouldn't blame Iron Man or Reed Richards at all for Goliath's death. Sorry, in my mind they committed manslaughter.

I so wish this book had absolutely nothing to do with Civil War.
Goliath as The Marvel Bullpen has said was a Criminal Breaking the law and resisting Arrest. He attacked Law enforcement officers with a multi ton Semi then threatened the Thor Clone. If A Police officer or a SHEILD Agent had shot to kill at this point it would have been ruled self defense. Though to be honest if the Clone was properaly programed it would have been able to use its strength alone to subdue Goliath.But make no mistake the Anti Regs are criminals breaking the law and by resisting those that enforce the law they are endangering people including themselves ,The Police,SHEILD agents and The Pro Heroes and sometimes innocent bystanders (Who knows where that SHEILD Aircraft Nighthawk attacked came down) While the Negative Zone Prison is a bit extreme in the fact they wont be released unless they comply with SHRA ,anyone there CAN opt out IF they Register As I understand.

[The Shadow]

Goliath as The Marvel Bullpen has said was a Criminal Breaking the law and resisting Arrest. He attacked Law enforcement officers with a multi ton Semi then threatened the Thor Clone. If A Police officer or a SHEILD Agent had shot to kill at this point it would have been ruled self defense. Though to be honest if the Clone was properaly programed it would have been able to use its strength alone to subdue Goliath.But make no mistake the Anti Regs are criminals breaking the law and by resisting those that enforce the law they are endangering people including themselves ,The Police,SHEILD agents and The Pro Heroes and sometimes innocent bystanders (Who knows where that SHEILD Aircraft Nighthawk attacked came down) While the Negative Zone Prison is a bit extreme in the fact they wont be released unless they comply with SHRA ,anyone there CAN opt out IF they Register As I understand.
Shhh... solid logic and posts like this will get you ostracized!

[kalorama]

Goliath as The Marvel Bullpen has said was a Criminal Breaking the law and resisting Arrest. He attacked Law enforcement officers with a multi ton Semi then threatened the Thor Clone. If A Police officer or a SHEILD Agent had shot to kill at this point it would have been ruled self defense.

That's because a police officer or SHIELD agent might have actually been in significant physical danger from an attack by Goliath. Someone with the raw physical strength of Thor and an electrical disgarge weapon capable of generating localized storms would not be.

[Markavian]

That's because a police officer or SHIELD agent might have actually been in significant physical danger from an attack by Goliath. Someone with the raw physical strength of Thor and an electrical disgarge weapon capable of generating localized storms would not be.
Its STILL An Attack . And one is NOT Within ones rights to attack any officer or instrument of the law. I suppose the closest thing the Thor Clone would count as is a K 9 Dog in the eyes of the Law. There was a case several years back where a suspect trying to flee a bust by police kicked at a K 9 dog while trying to run out the side door of a Crack House. The Dog reacted and tore his thigh open. He bleed to death before EMTS could arrive. The Court ruled the Dog was defending itself and shouldnt be put down as his family demanded , And it stayed in service.If Goliath hadnt been breaking the law or if he just gave up hands in the air the Thor Clone would not have attacked.Personally I feel Goliath was a great hero who was chosen to die because he is a bit obscure which sucks big time.But in the context of the Story while the Cloning itself Saddens and dismays me.It does so more than the Death itself.Goliath made a choice to fight several times and he paid the price ,you might aurgue the story itself is whacky or crazy and i will agree.

[kalorama]

Its STILL An Attack . And one is NOT Within ones rights to attack any officer or instrument of the law.

Not the point. The point being that an "officer of the law" (and it's still an unresolved question whether the Thor Clone qualified, given his murky legal status) does not have free reign to automatically use lethal force against a suspect who's "resisting arrest." There are guidelines to when and under what circumstances lethal force can be used, even by a cop. And given that it was well withing the Thor Clone's physical power to subdue Goliath without lethal force (and given that he didn't even bither to try) Goliath's death cannot be simply written off as a unfortunate consequence of an "officer of the law" doing his job.

As for the rest: A dog is a dumb animal that acts on instinct. By all indication, the clone was a sentient, self-aware being that acted with intent. Apples and oranges.

[bulbasteve]

That's because a police officer or SHIELD agent might have actually been in significant physical danger from an attack by Goliath. Someone with the raw physical strength of Thor and an electrical disgarge weapon capable of generating localized storms would not be.


He had probably killed innocent people judging by throwing that truck at the SHIELD agents. Yet none of the Agents would have a chance at subduing Goliath (he even said "you're kidding, right?" when the Agents told him to stand down). Now just because Thor wasn't at risk doesn't mean normal humans were not, and if normal humans COULD NOT subdue him then only Thor had the ability to stop Goliaths killing. And if they had already tried the most servere way of subduing which did not work (sonic scrambler doo dad), then really that was the only other option.

They tried to subdue them, that didn't work, he probably KILLED innocent people. All that is left is lethal force or let them escape.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

wouldn't that be the other way around? Humbug was a college professor for awhile before turning to crime. Colleen's of similar age to the original X-Men.
True, but she's got the whole zen superheroine thing going on, while Humbug's clearly still fumbling around trying to find his footing as a superhero (or villain, really). Thus, big sister, little brother - she's the one with the experience, he's the newbie.

[Markavian]

He had probably killed innocent people judging by throwing that truck at the SHIELD agents. Yet none of the Agents would have a chance at subduing Goliath (he even said "you're kidding, right?" when the Agents told him to stand down). Now just because Thor wasn't at risk doesn't mean normal humans were not, and if normal humans COULD NOT subdue him then only Thor had the ability to stop Goliaths killing. And if they had already tried the most servere way of subduing which did not work (sonic scrambler doo dad), then really that was the only other option.

They tried to subdue them, that didn't work, he probably KILLED innocent people. All that is left is lethal force or let them escape.
When he attacked the Agents I am sure they were not Killed other wise it would have been trumpeted by SHEILD and the Proi Reg Media as another reason the SHRA is justified and needed. ;)

[kalorama]

He had probably killed innocent people judging by throwing that truck at the SHIELD agents. Yet none of the Agents would have a chance at subduing Goliath (he even said "you're kidding, right?" when the Agents told him to stand down). Now just because Thor wasn't at risk doesn't mean normal humans were not, and if normal humans COULD NOT subdue him then only Thor had the ability to stop Goliaths killing. And if they had already tried the most servere way of subduing which did not work (sonic scrambler doo dad), then really that was the only other option.

They tried to subdue them, that didn't work, he probably KILLED innocent people. All that is left is lethal force or let them escape.

Aaaaaaand again ... it's not a question of whether Thor had the right to subdue him. It's a question of whether lethal force was (A) necessary and (B) the only way to subdue him. It wasn't. So killing him was not automatically legally justifiable.

[bulbasteve]

Aaaaaaand again ... it's not a question of whether Thor had the right to subdue him. It's a question of whther lethal force was the only way to subdue him. It wasn't. So killing him was not legally justifiable.

They tried conventional fighting, they tried FRYING THEIR BRAINS. What was left? Anyway you don't even know how strong clone-thor is, so assuming he wasn't in danger isn't right.

[Jmacq1]

They tried conventional fighting, they tried FRYING THEIR BRAINS. What was left? Anyway you don't even know how strong clone-thor is, so assuming he wasn't in danger isn't right.

And yet FrankenThor had already hit the Anti-Reg group with non-lethal lightning bolts. He couldn't employ the same tactic again?

Nevermind that his -next- action was to try to kill all the -rest- of the Anti-Registration heroes.

And correct, if you actually bother to look at the panel where Goliath tosses the truck at the SHIELD agents, there's only one of them that looks like he -might- have possibly been injured. The other two are clearly shown running away.

Nevermind that calling fully trained covert-operative paramilitary forces "innocents" is quite a stretch. Particularly when they call -themselves- "cape-killers".

[bulbasteve]

And yet FrankenThor had already hit the Anti-Reg group with non-lethal lightning bolts. He couldn't employ the same tactic again?

Nevermind that his -next- action was to try to kill all the -rest- of the Anti-Registration heroes.

And correct, if you actually bother to look at the panel where Goliath tosses the truck at the SHIELD agents, there's only one of them that looks like he -might- have possibly been injured. The other two are clearly shown running away.

Nevermind that calling fully trained covert-operative paramilitary forces "innocents" is quite a stretch. Particularly when they call -themselves- "cape-killers".

It didn't work the first time he tried, and they sure didn't take the hint the pro-side meant business.

And Sue stopped him, so what's your point? Could have easily been a plan if he went out of control.

Dude it's a few TON truck. I don't think we need the mythbusters to show that when you have a few ton semi slamming into a building, causing it to explode, you ain't gunna survive that, regardless of if you have 2 seconds to flail your arms and run in the other direction.

They don't have any power, Goliath LITERALLY made fun of them for trying to take him down, they were of no threat to him and he killed them. That is EXACTLY what you are saying Clor did, doesn't that seem even a bit hypocritical?

[XPac]

When he attacked the Agents I am sure they were not Killed other wise it would have been trumpeted by SHEILD and the Proi Reg Media as another reason the SHRA is justified and needed. ;)

It's easy enough to just ask Tom in question thread.

I asked about it when people were accusing Cap of murdering SHIELD agents before, and not suprisingly it didn't happen. I'll wager we'd get the same response here. But who knows.

[kalorama]

II don't think we need the mythbusters to show that when you have a few ton semi slamming into a building, causing it to explode...

Nope. All you have to do is look at the picture:
http://www.spacklecube.com/civilwar4/page008.jpg

to see that the truck clearly does not, in fact, explode and that all three of the men on the roof the truck hits are intact (two of them clearly shown running away under their own power).

[Markavian]

Aaaaaaand again ... it's not a question of whether Thor had the right to subdue him. It's a question of whether lethal force was (A) necessary and (B) the only way to subdue him. It wasn't. So killing him was not automatically legally justifiable.
Its Justified Under the Law in the Real world. In the MU I assume its the same .Because RIGHT=Equals Justified .

[XPac]

Its Justified Under the Law in the Real world. In the MU I assume its the same .Because RIGHT=Equals Justified .

Legally it might be justifable. And it's a mute point either way because SHIELD will likely make it all go away.

But I think people on BOTH sides would agree that it was neither necessary nor desirable.

[kalorama]

Its Justified Under the Law in the Real world. In the MU I assume its the same .Because RIGHT=Equals Justified .

It's justified Under The Law in the Real World under certain clearly drawn circumstances. Bizarro Thor blowing a hole in Goliath's chest as Option A for Apprehension does not fall under those circumstances.

[Markavian]

Legally it might be justifable. And it's a mute point either way because SHIELD will likely make it all go away.

But I think people on BOTH sides would agree that it was neither necessary nor desirable.
It was a worst case scenario carried to its extreme.

[Markavian]

It's justified Under The Law in the Real World under certain clearly drawn circumstances. Bizarro Thor blowing a hole in Goliath's chest as Option A for Apprehension does not fall under those circumstances.
When Bill Foster is resisting arrest and threatening Law Officers he has craused not one but two thesolds ..the Second is the one that Justifies Lethal force . Too bad he attacked the SHEILD Agents as they were armed with non lethal weapons and night have taken him down wirthout hurting him.

[kalorama]

When Bill Foster is resisting arrest and threatening Law Officers he has craused not one but two thesolds ..the Second is the one that Justifies Lethal force . Too bad he attacked the SHEILD Agents as they were armed with non lethal weapons and night have taken him down wirthout hurting him.

Wrong. Lethal force is only justified when (A) lives are threatened and (B) there's no other reasonable option (and even then it's not automatically justifiable. There'd still be a required investigation and hearing into the events to determine their justification).

(A)Foster was not a threat to Fake Thor's life (and it's clear that (1) he didn't klill those SHIELD agents and (2) he'd turned his attention away from them, so he was no threat to their lives).

(B) It was well within Fake Thor's power to subdue Goliath without killing him. He CHOSE noit to do so.

[jackolover]

Black cat and Cap met eachother once in Infinity War, where she and Black Widow volentered to take a look at Hawkeye and Spiderman who had been attacked.

Thanks for the info.

[Markavian]

Wrong. Lethal force is only justified when (A) lives are threatened and (B) there's no other reasonable option (and even then it's not automatically justifiable. There'd still be a required investigation and hearing into the events to determine their justification).

(A)Foster was not a threat to Fake Thor's life (and it's clear that (1) he didn't klill those SHIELD agents and (2) he'd turned his attention away from them, so he was no threat to their lives).

(B) It was well within Fake Thor's power to subdue Goliath without killing him. He CHOSE noit to do so.
When Lives are Threatened Lethal Force IS Justified Period. BUT I think the Way in which Goliath died in the Story..I mean like Yellow Jacket said in CW 3 "I thought You were Supposed to be Smart Bill?"...I mean this Guy is Supposed to be a Hero with YEARS Of Experience!! What Goliath did was not only illegal... IT WAS DUMB ! Sheesh!! He should have used his 100 foot Strides to RUN!!Descretion oftimes IS the better part of Valor indeed.

[kalorama]

When Lives are Threatened Lethal Force IS Justified Period.

Sorry, but (A) as a matter of legal/law enforcement fact, it's simply not that cut-and-dried and (B) Goliath did not pose a threat to anyone's life.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on. Really no point in continuing.

(Except to say that the only thing that running would have accomplished is that it would have allowed Faux Thor to shoot him in the back instead of the chest.)

[Haunt]

Sorry, but (A) as a matter of legal/law enforcement fact, it's simply not that cut-and-dried and (B) Goliath did not pose a threat to anyone's life.

"This'll be the shortest comeback ever, Thor." this after Hercules dropped a building on Iron Man. sounds like a threat to me. a police officer definately would have shot him.

[bulbasteve]

Nope. All you have to do is look at the picture:
http://www.spacklecube.com/civilwar4/page008.jpg

to see that the truck clearly does not, in fact, explode and that all three of the men on the roof the truck hits are intact (two of them clearly shown running away under their own power).

So what is that fireball like object in front? Looks to me the engine is EXPLODING. And just look at the physics of it, the back of that truck look like it's gunna crush them if they aren't killed by the blast. Even if that didn't happen you have to consider the structural integrity of the building and them falling through and the rest collapsing on them.

Of course Nightwing should have died first with him ramming through that plane in Frontline.

[kalorama]

So what is that fireball like object in front? Looks to me the engine is EXPLODING. And just look at the physics of it, the back of that truck look like it's gunna crush them if they aren't killed by the blast. Even if that didn't happen you have to consider the structural integrity of the building and them falling through and the rest collapsing on them.

I'm no demolitions expert, but I'm pretty sure that when trucks explode there are flames. I'm also pretty sure that an exploding engine would result in the hood being blown off. Or at least the grill flying off. None of which happens. The halo effect is a colorists trick to indicate the point of impact where the (non-exploding) truck hits the bricks (so to speak). There's nothing even resembling an explosion in that panel.

And you must have some kind of three-dimensional hyperspace vision to tell what the back end of the truck is gonna do to them, given that the back end of the truck is nowhere near visible in the picture.

[kalorama]

"This'll be the shortest comeback ever, Thor." this after Hercules dropped a building on Iron Man. sounds like a threat to me. a police officer definately would have shot him.

Aaaaand, again. (A) Police do not have free legal rein to shot anyone who verbally threatens them. Sorry. Simply not how it works. (B) Thorone isn't a cop.

[Vaal]

When did the insane, barely sapient clone become a law enforcement officer?

[Haunt]

When did the insane, barely sapient clone become a law enforcement officer?

you're right. he isn't a law enforcement officer. he's a soldier sanctioned by SHIELD and used by SHIELD as a weapon. that means he is even more within his rights to take Goliath down.

Aaaaand, again. (A) Police do not have free legal rein to shot anyone who verbally threatens them.

he was running towards him at giant size. i guarantee that you would be shot if you tried this against a street cop.


Sorry. Simply not how it works. (B) Thorone isn't a cop.

he's a SHIELD agent and a registered hero.

[kalorama]

you're right. he isn't a law enforcement officer. he's a soldier sanctioned by SHIELD and used by SHIELD as a weapon. that means he is even more within his rights to take Goliath down.

He's a mind-(barely)controlled clone whom even his own creators said was off the hook when he killed Goliath. He has no identity or legal status of his own. He was essentially a walking bio-weapon.

he was running towards him at giant size. i guarantee that you would be shot if you tried this against a street cop.

Last I checked, most street cops didn't have the strength of a Norse God (making them 3 or 4 times as strong as Goliath, easily) or a weapon capable of generating localized storms, either one of which could have been used to subdue Goliath without killing him. And if there exists reasonable expectation that a suspect can be subdued without lethal force, then use of lethal force is not justified. Period.

he's a SHIELD agent and a registered hero.

Thor's a hero. He's not Thor. And in order to register, you have to have a name to sign to the papers. What's his name? It's not Thor because he's not Thor. if he doesn't have a name or legal identity, he can't even register for a hotel room, let alone government or military service.

[Haunt]

Last I checked, most street cops didn't have the strength of a Norse God (making them 3 or 4 times as strong as Goliath, easily) or a weapon capable of generating localized storms, either one of which could have been used to subdue Goliath without killing him. And if there exists reasonable expectation that a suspect can be subdued without lethal force, then use of lethal force is not justified. Period.

fine. then you consider him to just be a mindless weapon. that means he had no discretion-making abilities. he was just there to attack the anti-side and that's what he did. Goliath provided him a very good target; walking up to him and all. anyways, we don't know Clor's full capabilities. maybe all he had was a lighting projecting hammer. can you say otherwise? if you can't, then it can't be said that he was capable of taking Goliath down without lethal force.

[kalorama]

fine. then you consider him to just be a mindless weapon. that means he had no discretion-making abilities. he was just there to attack the anti-side and that's what he did. Goliath provided him a very good target; walking up to him and all. anyways, we don't know Clor's full capabilities. maybe all he had was a lighting projecting hammer. can you say otherwise? if you can't, then it can't be said that he was capable of taking Goliath down without lethal force.

Nonsense. Of course it can. If he had the power to kill him then he also had the power to stun him, given the fairly obvious fact that it takes more power to kill than to stun someone with electricity. All he had to do was dial down the wattage. Or is it the ohms? I can never keep that straight.

On the flip side, if you're conceding that he was a walking weapon with no legal status, then you must also concede that he had no legal right to use lethal force against anyone.

[Haunt]

Nonsense. Of course it can. If he had the power to kill him then he also had the power to stun him, given the fairly obvious fact that it takes more power to kill than to stun someone with electricity. All he had to do was dial down the wattage. Or is it the ohms? I can never keep that straight.

On the flip side, if you're conceding that he was a walking weapon with no legal status, then you must also concede that he had no legal right to use lethal force against anyone.

how would a brainless weapon dial down its own power?

[The Shadow]

On the flip side, if you're conceding that he was a walking weapon with no legal status, then you must also concede that he had no legal right to use lethal force against anyone.
God I hate to agree with Haunt... it's almost painful... but the Thor clone was clearly there under the auspices of SHIELD and thus allowed the same privileges and codes of conduct (including lethal force) as the rest of the SHIELD agents.

[jackolover]

I have to say HFH 2 was miles better than the first issue. I didn't like issue 1 but issue 2 was great. I don't know. Women have another way of handling things than males, don't they? Being able to get into a safe house with Cap and Luke was a real coup. The writer has some insights into the female psyche.

And, despite the confrontation with cap ending so easily, the Paladin clean sweep was jaw dropping.

However, there was a statement that the safe house was so air tight, that bugs couldn't get in, yet in NA 23, Spiderwoman just walzed in without an alarm going off. Maybe some safe houses are more secure than others.

The writer has me intrigued, now, because he operates on many levels.

1. He makes Paladan appear to be this super mercinary who defeats everyone, and gets Shield to collect Cap, so Paladan thinks he is a winner.

2. Shang Chi whispers to Cap something before the gas takes over, so there's the possibility there has been a switch

3. Misty never leaves home without thinking 2, 3 steps ahead. So she either has backup that thwarts Paladans plans, or, she was planning to double cross Cap, if Cap didn't come in.

All in all, I was surprised by the intensity of this issue as a CW tie-in. Many layers, upon many layers. It took what I thought was a pretty blase concept I wouldn't look at twice, to presenting something engrossing, because it has the intrigue of stalking unnatural prey, and having to deal with uncomfortable situations. That's why these tie-ins are so engaging, because they deal with the uncomfortable. She-hulk's CW stories were like that, and so are Spidermans Unmasked series. It's not like Spiderman is on the run from the cops or bounty hunters after money. It gets much more complicated, in that the whole world is against you, and you can't redeem yourself by the next issue. CW makes it so this situation hangs over your head, and you can't do anything you're used too.

[kalorama]

how would a brainless weapon dial down its own power?


The same way he dialed it up on the next page, when he very clearly increased his power output in his attempt to murder the rest of Cap's crew as they tried to flee.

(And, just for the record, I never said he was "brainless" or "mindless." You did. I said he was "mind-(barely) controlled." Big difference. He clearly did have a consciousness and was able to form intent as he quite obviously intentionally killed Goliath and was attempting to do the same to the others.)

[Aztec Ace]

Heck Tony should have hit the site and all the anti-regs with a small nuclear device. They are criminals right! Fry them all! That way no Shield Agents would have to be exposed to flying trucks thrown by a giant guy! :p

[The Confessor]

When did the insane, barely sapient clone become a law enforcement officer?

Well, I thought being insane and barley sapient were pre-requisite requirements for all law enforcement officers. ;)