Sometimes violence IS the answer

[Shellhead]

Okay, the civilized viewpoint is that we should be able to solve problems without resorting to hitting things. But c'mon, we're comic book fans, so we have all seen dramatic situations resolved with a well-placed punch or kick. Tell us about an occasion where you solved a problem by hitting something or someone.

Me? After working a long day and then stopping to buy office supplies on the way home, I found myself locked out of my '98 Taurus because the damn remote clicker wouldn't work anymore, and the stupid Ford Motor Company didn't think that I would ever need actual keys for those keyholes on my doors or my trunks.

So I went back to the office supply store to replace the battery in my remote key thingie. I bloodied my fingers before managing to pry open the casing, but easily found a new matching battery. I go back to my car and find that the clicker still won't work, apparently the little circuit board is the problem, not the battery. It wasn't just the button, because none of the buttons were working. So I got mad, and started hammering on the driver's side door with my fist while swearing and clicking. Suddenly the lock popped open on the door, apparently from the combination of clicking and hitting.

Btw, it was the clicker that was worn out. When I got home, I tried my spare clicker, and that worked great.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

He who loses control...loses.

Or as H.G.Wells said:

The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas.

[Noah Johnson]

I really have found that the best thing about being able to use violence is that it helps ensure you don't have to. If a guy is looking for a fight, and he sees that you're not afraid to fight him, chances are he won't fight you. If you say "I have a gun", chances are you won't have to shoot anyone.

If, on the other hand, one prefers to use violence when one DOESN'T absolutely have to... well, one is an idiot thug, and that's a pity.

[Erebus]

Back in second grade, these little kids would always make fun of my brother and me. They were older and bigger, so we tolerated it and didn't tell our parents. But then one of them made me eat a jolly rancher they found on the ground. We finally had enough of it, and beat the shit out of them. They never bothered us again. When my parent found out, my mother started screaming about how she was raising a pair of thugs, but the only thing my dad said was, "Good job."

[Jack Zodiac]

Or as H.G.Wells said:

The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas.

While I appreciate his efforts as a writer, as a philosopher, he's lacking.

I find most of life's problems can be solved with violence. Jammed doors. Locked windows. Taxes. Rocky marriage. Rising gas prices. Religious debate. Y'know?

[Gilda Dent]

Hmmm. I can't say that I've even been in a situation in which my being violent would have made things better. To piggyback on what Noah was saying, the opposite is also true.

Being unwilling to ever use violence also puts you in a place where you don't have to, and provides you with great incentive to deescalate, disengage, and walk away from potentially violent confrontations.

I don't object to violence in self defense, by the way, so I hope that interpretation is not read into my statement.

Gilda

[MacQuarrie]

Shellhead, that wasn't violence. That was percussive maintenance.
It doesn't work, hit it. If it breaks it needed to be replaced anyway. When all else fails, resort to ignorance and brute strength.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

While I appreciate his efforts as a writer, as a philosopher, he's lacking.

I find most of life's problems can be solved with violence. Jammed doors. Locked windows. Taxes. Rocky marriage. Rising gas prices. Religious debate. Y'know?

Jack...I'll call social services on you. You're abusing sarcasm.

[Paul McEnery]

I really have found that the best thing about being able to use violence is that it helps ensure you don't have to. If a guy is looking for a fight, and he sees that you're not afraid to fight him, chances are he won't fight you. If you say "I have a gun", chances are you won't have to shoot anyone.

If, on the other hand, one prefers to use violence when one DOESN'T absolutely have to... well, one is an idiot thug, and that's a pity.
Standard boy scout.

Being prepared usually means you don't have to go there. Which is a good thing.

Oh, and Gilda --

Appreciate your pov, but I always figure it's best to negotiate from strength. It's better to de-escalate once people have decided both sides could go there if they wanted, but they'd both lose out. Everyone saves face, and it's easier from there on in.

Mind, that's such a guy thing.

(Yes, two posts in a row: why I'm butch enough to seem hard, and why I love Baz Luhrmann; ladies, why am I still single? :D)

[pennywisdom]

Okay, the civilized viewpoint is that we should be able to solve problems without resorting to hitting things. But c'mon, we're comic book fans, so we have all seen dramatic situations resolved with a well-placed punch or kick. Tell us about an occasion where you solved a problem by hitting something or someone.

Me? After working a long day and then stopping to buy office supplies on the way home, I found myself locked out of my '98 Taurus because the damn remote clicker wouldn't work anymore, and the stupid Ford Motor Company didn't think that I would ever need actual keys for those keyholes on my doors or my trunks.

So I went back to the office supply store to replace the battery in my remote key thingie. I bloodied my fingers before managing to pry open the casing, but easily found a new matching battery. I go back to my car and find that the clicker still won't work, apparently the little circuit board is the problem, not the battery. It wasn't just the button, because none of the buttons were working. So I got mad, and started hammering on the driver's side door with my fist while swearing and clicking. Suddenly the lock popped open on the door, apparently from the combination of clicking and hitting.

Btw, it was the clicker that was worn out. When I got home, I tried my spare clicker, and that worked great.
But that's not violence against a person, that's violence against a car.

Cars aren't people. Unless it's KITT.

[Noah Johnson]

Oh, and Gilda --

Appreciate your pov, but I always figure it's best to negotiate from strength. It's better to de-escalate once people have decided both sides could go there if they wanted, but they'd both lose out. Everyone saves face, and it's easier from there on in.
I like to deescalate from a position of strength. My standard thing to do when someone's acting tough is to give them a nice big smile. The smile communicates two things simultaneously: 1. "I mean you no harm; I'm not a threat and I have no problem with you." 2. "I'm not at all afraid of you. Maybe that's 'cause I'm crazy, maybe it's 'cause I could fold you up like origami. I ain't saying which."

[Paul McEnery]

I like to deescalate from a position of strength. My standard thing to do when someone's acting tough is to give them a nice big smile. The smile communicates two things simultaneously: 1. "I mean you no harm; I'm not a threat and I have no problem with you." 2. "I'm not at all afraid of you. Maybe that's 'cause I'm crazy, maybe it's 'cause I could fold you up like origami. I ain't saying which."
Zackly.

Although I think the message I'm sending is:

"You may be able to fuck me up; I don't care. You know and I know that violence is unpredictable. Neither of us know who's most willing to take the other guy's eye out. But neither of us want to lose an eye finding out. So now we've got that sorted, the only question is: who's buying the next round?"

[pennywisdom]

Zackly.

Although I think the message I'm sending is:

"You may be able to fuck me up; I don't care. You know and I know that violence is unpredictable. Neither of us know who's most willing to take the other guy's eye out. But neither of us want to lose an eye finding out. So now we've got that sorted, the only question is: who's buying the next round?"
And he's thinking the message you're sending is "Hey, sailor. How long are you on shore leave?"

[Paul McEnery]

And he's thinking the message you're sending is "Hey, sailor. How long are you on shore leave?"
Fair enough. That means we're both getting the answer we're looking for. He's buying the beer.

[Pól Rua]

If, on the other hand, one prefers to use violence when one DOESN'T absolutely have to... well, one is an idiot thug, and that's a pity.

I used to paraphrase Al Capone a lot:
"You get a lot further with a kind word and a gun than you do with just a gun."

[pennywisdom]

Fair enough. That means we're both getting the answer we're looking for. He's buying the beer.
I was just joking. It's all good.



I used to paraphrase Al Capone a lot:
"You get a lot further with a kind word and a gun than you do with just a gun."
Al Capone was friendly. What a swell guy.

[Gilda Dent]

Standard boy scout.

Being prepared usually means you don't have to go there. Which is a good thing.

Oh, and Gilda --

Appreciate your pov, but I always figure it's best to negotiate from strength. It's better to de-escalate once people have decided both sides could go there if they wanted, but they'd both lose out. Everyone saves face, and it's easier from there on in.

Mind, that's such a guy thing.

(Yes, two posts in a row: why I'm butch enough to seem hard, and why I love Baz Luhrmann; ladies, why am I still single? :D)

This assumes that one must be willing to engage in violence to be in a position of strength. I don't see being unwilling to use violence as indicative of weakness. I can also see altercations coming from two people/groups both trying to negotiate from a position of strength. If either party were unwilling to enter such a confrontation, it would not occur. I've seen numerous fights occur because one side was not willing to just walk away.

Why not, rather than engaging from a position of strength, just not engage at all? Same effect, no violent confrontation occurs.

Gilda

[Winslow]

And he's thinking the message you're sending is "Hey, sailor. How long are you on shore leave?"

Heh (I know you were joking but it reminded me of something)

When I was in high school, during tryouts for the basketball team, another player tried to pick a fight with me after practice. It was pretty obvious to me that he was trying to intimidate me so I'd quit.

So I smiled and blew him a kiss when he challenged me. (Basically, I said he was a schmuck, not worth my time, and I wasn't taking the bait and being intimidated).

He backed down with some homophobic remarks, and I got a good laugh.

Oh yeah, end of story - he got cut, and I made the team.

[TinMan]

He who loses control...loses.

Or as H.G.Wells said:

The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas.

Or a man thats so pissed off he's seeing red.

Violence solves plenty, unfortunately sometimes it is necessary cause there are people in the world that don't understand anything but violence and can't solve problems maturely.

I'm a passive person, I would rather settle things verbally and grab a drink than to throw a fist, but I also know that sometimes you may have to raise it whether you want to or not. So if you ever find yourself in a situation where you must use violence: swing hard, swing fast and don't stop swinging until their body is on the ground and not moving (or twitching from the physical trauma).

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Or a man thats so pissed off he's seeing red.

Violence solves plenty, unfortunately sometimes it is necessary cause there are people in the world that don't understand anything but violence and can't solve problems maturely.

I'm a passive person, I would rather settle things verbally and grab a drink than to throw a fist, but I also know that sometimes you may have to raise it whether you want to or not. So if you ever find yourself in a situation where you must use violence: swing hard, swing fast and don't stop swinging until their body is on the ground and not moving (or twitching from the physical trauma).

Make no mistake about it TinMan...every fight I've ever been in, I've won. I'm like the Australian armed forces (ask Ian about this) who have never lost a conflict in their history.

I just try to reason with my mind rather than my fists. And 9 times out of 10, I either stay out of situations that will get me into fights.

[TinMan]

Make no mistake about it TinMan...every fight I've ever been in, I've won. I'm like the Australian armed forces (ask Ian about this) who have never lost a conflict in their history.

I just try to reason with my mind rather than my fists. And 9 times out of 10, I either stay out of situations that will get me into fights.

Word, I wasn't responding directly to you, just the "seeing red" part, other than that it was more of a response to the thread poster than you, just to let ya know.

I typically do the same though, keep myself out of those situations that could cause a conflict, it's just the smart way to go.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Word, I wasn't responding directly to you, just the "seeing red" part, other than that it was more of a response to the thread poster than you, just to let ya know.

I typically do the same though, keep myself out of those situations that could cause a conflict, it's just the smart way to go.

We both could be like George W. I'm half listening to him at the R.O.A. and swear he's going to say "Afghanistan, Pakistan...all your base are belong to us".

[TinMan]

We both could be like George W. I'm half listening to him at the R.O.A. and swear he's going to say "Afghanistan, Pakistan...all your base are belong to us".

Dude, that would be so fucking awesome, especially if he actually verbalized "PWN3D!" at the end. :p

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Dude, that would be so fucking awesome, especially if he actually verbalized "PWN3D!" at the end. :p

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m66/bloody_morfeo/Bush.gif

[SOGG]

<snipped for space>every fight I've ever been in, I've won.

Damn. I envy you. I've lost every fight I've been in -- even the ones where I wasn't the guy who went to the hospital.

[Dan Apodaca]

Shellhead, that wasn't violence. That was percussive maintenance.
It doesn't work, hit it. If it breaks it needed to be replaced anyway. When all else fails, resort to ignorance and brute strength.

Agreed. I have no moral qualms about hitting inanimate objects.

[Dan Apodaca]

RRARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

That toaster totally felt up my girlfriend!

[Paul McEnery]

RRARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

That toaster totally felt up my girlfriend!
Perhaps you should buy her a proper vibrator.

[Dan Apodaca]

Perhaps you should buy her a proper vibrator.

HOW ABOUT I RIP YOUR ARMS OFF!!!!!!!!



She doesn't go for english muffins.

[Stellar]

Here's a little example of my own.

i work at an internet cafe in a tough neighborhood. needless to say, the testosterone levels are through the roof. every now and then some dud tries to step up and trouble in the place, so at first i tried talking to them. they just kept pulling that shit. as of now, i've worked there for a year and have gotten into 4 fights already. the guys i beat, the backed off. i felt good, finally disciplining those bastards, but in the back of my mind something kept telling that this was all wrong: i was becoming exactly like them. so i was at a dilemma. i could either beat the respect out of them and become somewhat of a brute, or do nothing and get harrassed all day.

so yeah, sometimes violence is the answer. but to what extent?

[MacQuarrie]

so yeah, sometimes violence is the answer. but to what extent?
The first thing you find in the Parent's Handbook: You don't have to actually smack them; you just have to make them think you might.

[Stellar]

yeah, but i've seen kids who practicly dared their parents to walk the walk instead of talking the talk.

then what?

[MacQuarrie]

yeah, but i've seen kids who practicly dared their parents to walk the walk instead of talking the talk.

then what?
Then you smack 'em.

I had a ping pong paddle with my kid's names written on it. I think I used it twice on one of them and once each on the other two.

[BoosterBronze]

i work at an internet cafe in a tough neighborhood. needless to say, the testosterone levels are through the roof. every now and then some dud tries to step up and trouble in the place, so at first i tried talking to them. they just kept pulling that shit. as of now, i've worked there for a year and have gotten into 4 fights already.


I'd never realized that an internet cafe was so dangerous.

THUG: ARG! My MySpace blog is lacking kudos! I'm gonna cause a disturbance!!!
STELLAR: It's "Roadhouse" time!

[BoosterBronze]

yeah, but i've seen kids who practicly dared their parents to walk the walk instead of talking the talk.

then what?

When I was about 8, I saw my dad take my adult older brother to the ground with one punch. I NEVER screwed with pop.

[BoosterBronze]

He who loses control...loses.

Or as H.G.Wells said:

The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas.

Leave it to me to take things to ridiculous examples, but I can imagine prisoners in Auschwitz sitting there saying, "Gee, I sure hope the Allies run out of ideas pretty fucking quick."

[Stellar]

see it's because of things like this i always say parenting is harder than most people think. you need to know when to apply discipline, but more importantly, how.

in my house? moms had a thcik yellow belt that was ONLY for whoopin'. she never wore, it was ONLY for whoopin.'
in my house, you only pulled shit once, got the belt, and you never did it again.
THAT'S discipline.
not that 'don't hit the children' bullshit nowadays.

[Erebus]

My dad preferred using a bamboo stick. And I agree with you that the line between "child abuse" and "punishment" should be pretty clear, but apparently isn't nowadays. I was walking through the mall today, and this little kid and his mom was their. The kid was screaming about wanting a toy, and the mom told him that they didn't have enough money, and just tried to soothe him. He then proceeded to kick her shin and break 5 expensive vases. Everyone was just staring, even the manager. Then, she had enough of it, and she spanked the shit out of him. The manager asked her to leave the store, and I heard some people mutter about how she was such an abusive mother. Biggest bullshit I ever heard.

[Noah Johnson]

Leave it to me to take things to ridiculous examples, but I can imagine prisoners in Auschwitz sitting there saying, "Gee, I sure hope the Allies run out of ideas pretty fucking quick."
Interestingly enough, Auschwitz was only built because, at the Wansee Conference, the Third Reich was debating what to do with the Jews, and realized they'd run out of ideas. Their solution, therefore, was violence.

So your example actually kinda works better for the other viewpoint.

[Jack Zodiac]

Ha! Booster set it up and Noah totally fucking spiked Godwin's Law!

[MacQuarrie]

My dad preferred using a bamboo stick. And I agree with you that the line between "child abuse" and "punishment" should be pretty clear, but apparently isn't nowadays. I was walking through the mall today, and this little kid and his mom was their. The kid was screaming about wanting a toy, and the mom told him that they didn't have enough money, and just tried to soothe him. He then proceeded to kick her shin and break 5 expensive vases. Everyone was just staring, even the manager. Then, she had enough of it, and she spanked the shit out of him. The manager asked her to leave the store, and I heard some people mutter about how she was such an abusive mother. Biggest bullshit I ever heard.
Her mistake was in letting it escalate to that point.

The first time he screamed or acted out in any way over the toy, she should have got right down in his face, a hand on each cheek, nose to nose, and said, quietly but VERY firmly, "I will get you everything you need, but not everything you want, and if that's not good enough, we will leave and you won't even get what you need. But know this: Tantrums Don't Work. Tantrums cause pain. If you can't control yourself, I will control you and I will do it in a way you will not like. Got it?"

Do not negotiate with terrorists.

[Gilda Dent]

THAT'S discipline.
not that 'don't hit the children' bullshit nowadays.

This is precisely what's wrong with America today, parents don't hit their children enough. It's a problem in the schools, too. And public venues are the worst. Heaven forbid you smack someone else's snot nosed little brat in a department store or show some tweens talking loudly what the true price of rudeness is.

If only more people understood that hitting kids is a good thing.

Gilda

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Interestingly enough, Auschwitz was only built because, at the Wansee Conference, the Third Reich was debating what to do with the Jews, and realized they'd run out of ideas. Their solution, therefore, was violence.

So your example actually kinda works better for the other viewpoint.

http://krant.telegraaf.nl/krant/naslag/filmrecensies/film.000120kevinspacey.jpg

I RULE!!!!!

or as Homer would do it.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m66/bloody_morfeo/YAHOOO.gif

Woop Woop woop woop woop woop!!

[Winslow]

This is precisely what's wrong with America today, parents don't hit their children enough. It's a problem in the schools, too. And public venues are the worst. Heaven forbid you smack someone else's snot nosed little brat in a department store or show some tweens talking loudly what the true price of rudeness is.

If only more people understood that hitting kids is a good thing.

Gilda

Sarcasm duly noted.

I think the problem isn't so much the choice of discipline, but the failure to exercise discipline.

It seems egalitarian values (while usually a good thing) have "gone too far" muddied the waters of a parent's responsibility to exercise authority over their child.

Exercising authority and discipling your child does not mean you believe they are a lesser being (I know you didn't say this Gilda, I'm just making conversation here). Simply that they aren't developed enough, or smart enough, or experienced enough to negoitate their own wants and desires, feelings, or relationships.

[Wesley Dodds]

Actually, I read some James Dobson a while back and was impressed with how much he qualified the use of force against your child.

It was so qualified I was left wondering, "OK, what's the substantive disagreement here?"

[Gilda Dent]

Sarcasm duly noted.

I think the problem isn't so much the choice of discipline, but the failure to exercise discipline.

It seems egalitarian values (while usually a good thing) have "gone too far" muddied the waters of a parent's responsibility to exercise authority over their child.

Exercising authority and discipling your child does not mean you believe they are a lesser being (I know you didn't say this Gilda, I'm just making conversation here). Simply that they aren't developed enough, or smart enough, or experienced enough to negoitate their own wants and desires, feelings, or relationships.

I have no disagreement with any of this.

[Stellar]

I think the problem isn't so much the choice of discipline, but the failure to exercise discipline.

It seems egalitarian values (while usually a good thing) have "gone too far" muddied the waters of a parent's responsibility to exercise authority over their child.

Exercising authority and discipling your child does not mean you believe they are a lesser being (I know you didn't say this Gilda, I'm just making conversation here). Simply that they aren't developed enough, or smart enough, or experienced enough to negoitate their own wants and desires, feelings, or relationships.

Of course the problem is, explaining this to the child in question. i remember when i was around 6, 7, whenever my mom gave me a whoopin', i'd think she didn't love me. it was only when i turned 13 and started learning how the world works that i understood it.
i guess you could say you don't need to explain certain thing's to a child, but my mom has always made it a point to explain to me and my brother why she gave us a whoopin' when we did something bad, thus the reason we tried not to do it again.

[BoosterBronze]

Interestingly enough, Auschwitz was only built because, at the Wansee Conference, the Third Reich was debating what to do with the Jews, and realized they'd run out of ideas. Their solution, therefore, was violence.

So your example actually kinda works better for the other viewpoint.

Are you saying the Reich was all about big ideas before Wannsee, and that was the first time they decided on violence? I'm not sure I agree with you there Noah. Notwithstanding that, Reinhard Heydrich went into Wannsee with the clear goal of gaining beuracratic rubberstamping for the already devised Final Solution.

Small nuances of Nazi beuracracy aside, I think all the Nazis idea's and all the violence they did were bad things. (except the Volkswagen, which was a good car).

But if we can agree the Allies were the good guys, what else could they have done? Was there an idea that could have saved Europes remaining Jews and occupied peoples?

[Noah Johnson]

But if we can agree the Allies were the good guys, what else could they have done? Was there an idea that could have saved Europes remaining Jews and occupied peoples?
...by 1942-43, the period under discussion, after things had already degenerated into violence? No. Between 1933 and 1939? Almost certainly yes. Read the original quote again.

[Tages]

Actually, I read some James Dobson a while back and was impressed with how much he qualified the use of force against your child.

It was so qualified I was left wondering, "OK, what's the substantive disagreement here?"
My father hit me exactly once, after I'd hit my sister. And it wasn't anything that caused any noticeable injury, it was more to get the point across than anything else. "Let's see how YOU like it."

I deserved it.

[Gilda Dent]

Of course the problem is, explaining this to the child in question. i remember when i was around 6, 7, whenever my mom gave me a whoopin', i'd think she didn't love me. it was only when i turned 13 and started learning how the world works that i understood it.
i guess you could say you don't need to explain certain thing's to a child, but my mom has always made it a point to explain to me and my brother why she gave us a whoopin' when we did something bad, thus the reason we tried not to do it again.

When my dad started hitting me, around the age of maybe four or five, I thought it was because he loved me. I thought this because it was what he told me every time he hit me. It wasn't until I'd been out of there, away from him for a few years that I figured out the truth, which was that he did it because he hated me. My mom was, and probablystill is deluded enough to think that he and my stepfather were trying to do what was best for me, that they "loved" me.

I will never, under any cicumstances, strike a child.

Gilda

[Gingold]

I'm with Gilda on this.

I see too many kids come into school with bruises,usually right after report cards come out.

[Nikita]

Okay, the civilized viewpoint is that we should be able to solve problems without resorting to hitting things. But c'mon, we're comic book fans, so we have all seen dramatic situations resolved with a well-placed punch or kick. Tell us about an occasion where you solved a problem by hitting something or someone.

Me? After working a long day and then stopping to buy office supplies on the way home, I found myself locked out of my '98 Taurus because the damn remote clicker wouldn't work anymore, and the stupid Ford Motor Company didn't think that I would ever need actual keys for those keyholes on my doors or my trunks.

So I went back to the office supply store to replace the battery in my remote key thingie. I bloodied my fingers before managing to pry open the casing, but easily found a new matching battery. I go back to my car and find that the clicker still won't work, apparently the little circuit board is the problem, not the battery. It wasn't just the button, because none of the buttons were working. So I got mad, and started hammering on the driver's side door with my fist while swearing and clicking. Suddenly the lock popped open on the door, apparently from the combination of clicking and hitting.

Btw, it was the clicker that was worn out. When I got home, I tried my spare clicker, and that worked great.



The candy machine at work when stuff gets stuck. Shaking it actually works.

[Paul McEnery]

When my dad started hitting me, around the age of maybe four or five, I thought it was because he loved me. I thought this because it was what he told me every time he hit me. It wasn't until I'd been out of there, away from him for a few years that I figured out the truth, which was that he did it because he hated me. My mom was, and probablystill is deluded enough to think that he and my stepfather were trying to do what was best for me, that they "loved" me.

I will never, under any cicumstances, strike a child.

Gilda
I feel you.

But I still enjoy the story from the mother of the child I was nannying. Kid bit another kid. She reached over and bit her own kid. That was it for biting.

[Dan Apodaca]

Here's a little example of my own.

i work at an internet cafe in a tough neighborhood. needless to say, the testosterone levels are through the roof. every now and then some dud tries to step up and trouble in the place, so at first i tried talking to them. they just kept pulling that shit. as of now, i've worked there for a year and have gotten into 4 fights already. the guys i beat, the backed off. i felt good, finally disciplining those bastards, but in the back of my mind something kept telling that this was all wrong: i was becoming exactly like them. so i was at a dilemma. i could either beat the respect out of them and become somewhat of a brute, or do nothing and get harrassed all day.

so yeah, sometimes violence is the answer. but to what extent?

I didn't see anything in there about you calling the police. Try it sometime. That's what they're there for.

[Xero Kaiser]

Good ol' violence. No matter what Seasame Street tells me, I know that you're often the best solution.

[Dan Apodaca]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/danapodaca/xavier01.jpg

Now, that's a fight!

[MacQuarrie]

I feel you.

But I still enjoy the story from the mother of the child I was nannying. Kid bit another kid. She reached over and bit her own kid. That was it for biting.
Oh, biting. I know how to deal with biting.

My daughter bit a kid at preschool.

We got home, I said "Oh my, you bit somebody. You need Bite Medicine. Every time you bite somebody, you have to take Bite Medicine."

Then I gave her a tablespoon of vinegar.

That was it for biting.

[Jabuka]

Sometimes violence is the only option go to the suburbs and have somebodey try to pick a fight with you 80% of the peope will not back of when you say words and if you walk away youre ass is still gonna get in a fight sometimes just stand up for youre self and hit em or else you might be the one getting hurt badly (not saying you should badly hurt the person but like hit em at least:cool: )

[MacQuarrie]

When my dad started hitting me, around the age of maybe four or five, I thought it was because he loved me. I thought this because it was what he told me every time he hit me. It wasn't until I'd been out of there, away from him for a few years that I figured out the truth, which was that he did it because he hated me. My mom was, and probablystill is deluded enough to think that he and my stepfather were trying to do what was best for me, that they "loved" me.

I will never, under any cicumstances, strike a child.

Gilda
You're smart enough to make that work. Too many people who say that they will never strike a child don't have any other plan for discipline. They end up with frazzled nerves and horrible children.

Studies have found that children are more likely to suffer violent abuse at the hands of parents who "don't believe in spanking." Because they don't have any other plan for discipline or punishment of misbehavior, they more likely to reach the end of their rope, flip out and pound the kid.

The paddle is just one instrument in the parents' arsenal. If you, as a parent, choose to reject it as an option, make sure you have an effective method of getting the point across. Or hope that you have only docile, compliant children. Some kids are, some aren't. For some kids, a spanking is the only thing that works. For others, it's the only thing that won't work. For still others, it's the worst thing you can do. It's all a matter of letting the kid tell you what works and tailoring the discipline accordingly.

[MacQuarrie]

Sometimes violence is the only option go to the suburbs and have somebodey try to pick a fight with you 80% of the peope will not back of when you say words and if you walk away youre ass is still gonna get in a fight sometimes just stand up for youre self and hit em or else you might be the one getting hurt badly (not saying you should badly hurt the person but like hit em at least:cool: )
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[Dan Apodaca]

Sometimes violence is the only option go to the suburbs and have somebodey try to pick a fight with you 80% of the peope will not back of when you say words and if you walk away youre ass is still gonna get in a fight sometimes just stand up for youre self and hit em or else you might be the one getting hurt badly (not saying you should badly hurt the person but like hit em at least:cool: )

I can't stop laughing.

[Gingold]

I can't stop laughing.

Don't be so quick to judge. Just the other night I was in an Appleby's parking lot when a couple of soccer moms jumped out of a minivan and started threatening me. I had no choice but to kick some ass.

[Gilda Dent]

You're smart enough to make that work. Too many people who say that they will never strike a child don't have any other plan for discipline. They end up with frazzled nerves and horrible children.

Studies have found that children are more likely to suffer violent abuse at the hands of parents who "don't believe in spanking." Because they don't have any other plan for discipline or punishment of misbehavior, they more likely to reach the end of their rope, flip out and pound the kid.

The paddle is just one instrument in the parents' arsenal. If you, as a parent, choose to reject it as an option, make sure you have an effective method of getting the point across. Or hope that you have only docile, compliant children. Some kids are, some aren't. For some kids, a spanking is the only thing that works. For others, it's the only thing that won't work. For still others, it's the worst thing you can do. It's all a matter of letting the kid tell you what works and tailoring the discipline accordingly.

I guess my main objection is to the idea (not expressed in this thread, but one I've read frequently elsewhere) that discipline = corporal punishment, that if you won't hit or hurt your kids physically, you aren't disciplining them. It ignores that there are a dozen other types of punishment less severe than hitting. You can take the most severe form off of the table without taking all punishments out.

Also, in regards to the people who say they won't spank, but end up abusing because they have nothing else, well it seems obvious to me that spanking or not isn't the problem, it's having nothing else. If their first and only means of punishment is spanking, they're going to be hitting their children a lot.

Discipline isn't primarily about what the method of punishment is, it's about having a clear set of expectations for what is and is not allowed, reasonable incentives for meeting those expectations and disincentives for not doing so, and being firm and consistent in how the rules are enforced.

Gilda

[Jabuka]

Don't be so quick to judge. Just the other night I was in an Appleby's parking lot when a couple of soccer moms jumped out of a minivan and started threatening me. I had no choice but to kick some ass.

now im almost positive thats sarcasm :).

[Gingold]

now im almost positive thats sarcasm :).

That's what the soccer moms thought. Big mistake.

[Noah Johnson]

I'm with Gilda here. I'm completely, utterly, fervently pro-spanking, as long as it's between consenting adults.

[Jabuka]

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

kick ass if you know you have too...............either that or do my excuse of im "black and im mad" which 99% of the time works.

[Jack Zodiac]

Will it work for me 99% of the time? "I'm Black-Irish and I'm mad!"

[JerrBear81]

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12242001.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04192002.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp06162002.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp07172002.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp07212002.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp08032002.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp11152002.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp06032006.shtml

:D

[Gary_B]

Don't be so quick to judge. Just the other night I was in an Appleby's parking lot when a couple of soccer moms jumped out of a minivan and started threatening me. I had no choice but to kick some ass.

You're just lucky they weren't hockey moms!

[Tages]

To further elaborate on my personal opinions, as a general rule I am in favor of violence only...

1. When nonviolent resolution is no longer possible.
2. Violent action is expected to produce a result preferable to inaction.

So I can't think of any everyday justifications for physical punishment. It would have to be really, really bad before I would consider doing that to a child of mine, and if I did, it would, as in my example above, be to get a point across and not to cause any injury.

Let me qualify this that while I can't think of any probably situation in which I'd strike a child I would be all in favor of letting them learn lessons from physical pain when it comes to their own dumb actions. Like Gilda said in the thread with the girl who was bit by the little meerkat, if my kid did that, fuck yes he or she is getting a rabies shot. They need to learn that when you act in a dangerous, irresponsible manner, consequences follow, and as long as it's not debilitating or life-threatening, knock yourself out.

[Fenris]

He who loses control...loses.

Or as H.G.Wells said:

The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas.

I can see the truth of that; it reminds me of Asimov's axiom, that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Certainly, if people were smarter and nobler, we could find better solutions to problems.

But this isn't really an answer: just saying it doesn't make us smarter. The problems are still there, and sometimes violence is the best answer we can find.

If this means that even the best people run out of ideas sometimes... Well, of course they do. And when they do, their problems still need to be dealt with.

[K'Nort]

I didn't see anything in there about you calling the police. Try it sometime. That's what they're there for.

I think he's in South America. May not be much of an option.


And yeah, if the physical discipline you received as a kid was out of line and for the wrong reasons, avoid that method like the proverbial plague because it will make both of you feel worse. On the other hand, every time I got smacked, I totally had it coming. Not to mention it was far less unpleasant than the alternative punishments my folks came up with. Context is huge.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

I got into a chain fight outside an Arby's once. The manager didn't like my critique of their Chicken Naturals menu.

[Jack Zodiac]

I wanna' get into a leather strap match with the next old biddy who sneers at me for cursing in the grocery store.

[Gilda Dent]

I wanna' get into a leather strap match with the next old biddy who sneers at me for cursing in the grocery store.

Have you considered not cursing in public places?

[Dan Apodaca]

My friends and I go to a local pool hall fairly often, and are close with the owner.

Last night, for the first time, we saw a fight in the place. One guy got a plastic sugar cube tray right in the forehead. Bleeding and everything. Then the guy calls the cops and there's a whole scene inside the place, while we're hiding out in the corner.

Now, if the guy had just knocked down the other dude before he had thrown the tray, there wouldn't have even been any blood.

Of course, if he had just shut up and left, it all would have been done, right then and there.

[Dan Apodaca]

Have you considered not cursing in public places?

Unless it's a child, I say deal with it. It's just a word.

[Jack Zodiac]

Have you considered not cursing in public places?

Pfft! Of course not. Mind you, I don't curse at them, or even very loudly, and definitely not around children when I know that they're around earshot. Nevertheless, if I say something to the effect of, "Canned ham tastes like shit" to my girlfriend, and someone's passing by, I never fail to get a disgusted look out of them.

Fuck 'em. I'm gonna' start carrying around a leather strap.

[Gilda Dent]

Pfft! Of course not. Mind you, I don't curse at them, or even very loudly, and definitely not around children when I know that they're around earshot. Nevertheless, if I say something to the effect of, "Canned ham tastes like shit" to my girlfriend, and someone's passing by, I never fail to get a disgusted look out of them.

You use dirty language, they give you a dirty look. Pot, meet kettle.

[Stellar]

I'd like to hear how Gilda Dent and Noah feel a child should be disciplined, seeing as how they're pro-no spanking.

[Jack Zodiac]

You use dirty language, they give you a dirty look. Pot, meet kettle.

Got me there, I'll be quite honest. I still disagree with their idea that any word can be "dirty," especially in an indirect context, like saying something tastes like shit, or using "fuck" as an exclamatory and not an insult, but in their minds, all of those taboo words make me an awful, horrible human being, and using them in public makes me a sociopath.

And in my mind, they can go fuck themselves.

[Jack Zodiac]

I'd like to hear how Gilda Dent and Noah feel a child should be disciplined, seeing as how they're pro-no spanking.

A stern lecture. Deprivation of entertainment. And lots of cursing.

[Dan Apodaca]

You use dirty language, they give you a dirty look. Pot, meet kettle.

Only if you buy into the nonsense of "dirty language". Arbitrary sillyness at its worst.

[Gilda Dent]

I'd like to hear how Gilda Dent and Noah feel a child should be disciplined, seeing as how they're pro-no spanking.

I answered this already.

[Gilda Dent]

Got me there, I'll be quite honest. I still disagree with their idea that any word can be "dirty," especially in an indirect context, like saying something tastes like shit, or using "fuck" as an exclamatory and not an insult, but in their minds, all of those taboo words make me an awful, horrible human being, and using them in public makes me a sociopath.

And in my mind, they can go fuck themselves.

You can read minds? How do you know what a dirty look means? I've had my share of rude old women at the grocery store, but a dirty look is pretty mild compared to bumping me or my cart with theirs.

I'd say that cursing in public makes you a little impolite, but I wouldn't make a fuss out of it with you.

[Jack Zodiac]

You can read minds?

Yes?

I was going for the most extreme, of course, because that's always the most effectual. They could be thinking that I'm just impolite, but I'd rather they not even notify me of their disapproval with a constipated glare. They could ignore me, just like I ignore them.

Still, keeping a leather strap around... maybe I won't have to ignore 'em anymore. :D