What would it take to "redeem" Tony Stark and Reed Richards? (Spoilers)

[Kevinroc]

Assuming Marvel is not going to go down the "Skrull/ Space Phantom/ Manipulated by a villain" path, what would it take in your eyes to redeem Tony Stark and Reed Richards?

Or are those ways the only way to redeem Stark and Richards in your eyes after everything they have done?

A list of some of the things they have done:

- Building a prison in the negative zone that makes the prisoners miserable (and one killed himself). Keeping them there without a trial and for the rest of their lives (unless they agree to register).

- Cloning their MIA friend Thor as a mindless weapon slave and sending this Thor clone out into the field without having full control over him. This action led to the death of Black Goliath.

- Very secretive about the whole process to the public and even to "allies" (Spider-Man sure as hell didn't know about the Negative Zone prison thing and then jumped ship after learning about it).

- Essentially creating a Marvel form of The Suicide Squad. Using villains such as Venom, Bullseye, and The Green Goblin to do it.

So, short of going down the "skrull/ space phantom/ manipulated by a villain" route, is there anything Marvel can do to make Tony and Reed seem "heroic" in your eyes?

[Will.S]

I dunno, at this point I'm still putting the "redeeming" stuff on hold until the entire mini is out. There's still 3 more issues to go alongside the tie ins so there could be some radical new twists within the next few issues that make them have more reasonable cause.

At this point in time though, the best they can do is either take out a bigger threat than the registration act or rebel against the worst aspects of it and make it more balanced towards the superheroes.

[gorthon616]

Assuming Marvel is not going to go down the "Skrull/ Space Phantom/ Manipulated by a villain" path, what would it take in your eyes to redeem Tony Stark and Reed Richards?

Or are those ways the only way to redeem Stark and Richards in your eyes after everything they have done?

A list of some of the things they have done:

- Building a prison in the negative zone that makes the prisoners miserable (and one killed himself). Keeping them there without a trial and for the rest of their lives (unless they agree to register).

- Cloning their MIA friend Thor as a mindless weapon slave and sending this Thor clone out into the field without having full control over him. This action led to the death of Black Goliath.

- Very secretive about the whole process to the public and even to "allies" (Spider-Man sure as hell didn't know about the Negative Zone prison thing and then jumped ship after learning about it).

- Essentially creating a Marvel form of The Suicide Squad. Using villains such as Venom, Bullseye, and The Green Goblin to do it.

So, short of going down the "skrull/ space phantom/ manipulated by a villain" route, is there anything Marvel can do to make Tony and Reed seem "heroic" in your eyes?

They could retcon some worse acts by the Anti-Reg people. If (even not affiliated with Cap) there was some lashing out towards the act that would create such a threat as to justify their actions, I would say it would be redeemable.

Honestly, they didn't even have to do that much to make them more heroic, even considering those acts. They just neglected to do virtually anything.

[MatthewC]

Three words.

Iron. Fear. Monster.

[Vaal]

Reed is still redeemable if he finally breaks down and tries to undo things like the clone army.

Tony... to be perfectly honest, I just *want* him to turn 'idealistic villain', prehaps even having a run in with Magneto along the way. He's just done too much for him to get a presto-chango repentance followed by a group hug. He needs punishment before he can seek absolution.

SHIELD, is gone. Period. The organization would need to be completely recycled to be redeemed. They're worse than ONE at this point and ONE had guys joking about mutant kids being killed in NXM.

[yeoman]

Assuming Marvel is not going to go down the "Skrull/ Space Phantom/ Manipulated by a villain" path, what would it take in your eyes to redeem Tony Stark and Reed Richards?

Or are those ways the only way to redeem Stark and Richards in your eyes after everything they have done?

A list of some of the things they have done:

- Building a prison in the negative zone that makes the prisoners miserable (and one killed himself). Keeping them there without a trial and for the rest of their lives (unless they agree to register).

- Cloning their MIA friend Thor as a mindless weapon slave and sending this Thor clone out into the field without having full control over him. This action led to the death of Black Goliath.

- Very secretive about the whole process to the public and even to "allies" (Spider-Man sure as hell didn't know about the Negative Zone prison thing and then jumped ship after learning about it).

- Essentially creating a Marvel form of The Suicide Squad. Using villains such as Venom, Bullseye, and The Green Goblin to do it.

So, short of going down the "skrull/ space phantom/ manipulated by a villain" route, is there anything Marvel can do to make Tony and Reed seem "heroic" in your eyes?


Dissassembled already has a built in out. Back then Wanda used her powers to make him drunk in front of the UN. He might still be affected by that on some level.

Reed, Reed you can alwys play the "felt he was protecting his family" angle. Johnny had just been assulted, and Reed has invaded *heaven* to save his family.

Tony doesn't have an excuse. He really doesn't. Without retconning he just went down a slippery slope and is no better than the common meglomaniacal super-villian. And half of those are still morally superior to Tony.

[PatchMadripoor]

At this point Tony has once again crossed the line to being redeemed.

The writers keep stressing that Tony is not under outside influences to retcon or blame, then Tony's soulless need to have pro registration has gone to near Magneto level zealotry. The path to hell is paved with the best of intentions.

He is going to have to loose everything, willingly give up all of it and show who he is to the public before he can start redeeming himself.

As for Reed, I think Sue can save him, but there will be people who won't be able to look at him the same again. Or when he realizes he may have to register Franklin into service, if the Pro Registration side turns into a DRAFT against World War Hulk.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Have the anti-reggers do somthing horrible. Realy Realy horrible. Go terrorist and blow up a building, help atlantis invade the US, Start Kicking puppies, somthing like that.

If the anti-reggers start acting as bad as Tony and Reed say the're acting it ligitimizes almost everything they've done.

[Shyft]

Have the anti-reggers do somthing horrible. Realy Realy horrible. Go terrorist and blow up a building, help atlantis invade the US, Start Kicking puppies, somthing like that.

If the anti-reggers start acting as bad as Tony and Reed say the're acting it ligitimizes almost everything they've done.

But unless those horrific acts are retconned to have happened in the past, you could argue that Tony's actions have caused the attrocities.

Back to the point, This is the only way i could see IM/Richards could redeem themselves;

Zemo or some other crazy villain hijacks the whole registration/cloning/detention system, and uses it to basically take control of the country. IM and Reed Richards then prove instrumental in defeating the villain, and repent their mistakes, and help dismantle it all.

However that isnt going to happen, as Marvel said there will be a definate winner in the conflict.

[Cthulhudrew]

I say they both turn out to be duplicates created by King Solomon's Frog (in Tony's case, he's the duplicate that was running around in Enemy of the State II).

Solves the problem.

[Doom Hammer]

The thing is, I absolutely agree with their goals, and I think Cap has absolutely no business contesting them, but their means are so very amoral, if not immoral, to say the least.

I wish they would display Tony heroically. I know it's not outside of his chatacter to compromise morally if he believes in a cause enough, but I think the readers really, really, REALLY need to see that he believes in this. They need to get inside his futurist head, see the figures he sees, fear the results he fears, and hear out the conclusions he's made. At this point, there's been very little of that.

As far as Reed goes, I don't know, dude, it seems like they dropped the ball on that one. I love Civil War, but I can hardly defend his representation to long-term Fantastic Four fans. He has the best of intentions, and he doesn't want anyone to die, but damn. Cloning Thor? Torturing super-heroes, holding them without trial for life? That's completely wrong, from any point of view. Particularly the latter issue, which, you know, can actually happen in real life.

[Vaal]

Reed seems almost... senile in his most recent characterization. Could it be that that giant brain is simply burning out?

[mrc1214]

It would take alot for them to be redeemed in my opinion. They're almost villians to some people. It doesnt suprise me the way there acting. But its just a comic ill get over it.

[CapFan]

They need to bust out the camera crew with Ashton Kutcher and be like "Captain America, you just got Punk'd!!!" :D

[yeoman]

Have the anti-reggers do somthing horrible. Realy Realy horrible. Go terrorist and blow up a building, help atlantis invade the US, Start Kicking puppies, somthing like that.

If the anti-reggers start acting as bad as Tony and Reed say the're acting it ligitimizes almost everything they've done.


No. It wouldn't. It would make them just as bad and mean there were virtually no super-heroes left on the plaent. The Runaways and the Thunderbolts would be left as the most morally superior meta-humans on MU Earth.

One's opponent being just as bad as you does not legitimize one's immoral and illegal actions, nor redeem them.

There are times when one can't afford to be nice when stopping evil. There are times when you need Wolverine. This is not one. The people Tony is throwing into the Negative Zone wanted to make the world a better place and save lives. Tony wants to be king high asshat of the universe.

[NickThompson]

I don't think they need redeeming.

[NickThompson]

The people Tony is throwing into the Negative Zone wanted to make the world a better place and save lives.
Punisher takes out bad people. A guy who sneaks into a hospital and starts performing operations without training is trying to save lives. Where do you draw the line?


The people in that prison are breaking the law. The US Government has decided that superheroes have to be registered, trained and accountable. The people in that prison have decided that they are against that. Thus, they are breaking the law. What, they should go "Well this is the right thing to do, but some heroes disagree! We must scrap the act"?

[Alan2099]

Superheroes have been breaking laws since day one. Why all the sudden are you saying that what they're doing is wrong?

[rerun]

Well, there is disobeying the law, and then there is "we're going to send you off this planet to punish you." In dictatorships, there are also rules which people break, and the outlandish punishments are protested by groups like Amnesty International. That's what the anti-reg squad need- Amnesty International.

To answer the original question, there better not be a cop-out solution. I can see a "we knew there was a bigger evil behind this so we had to act this way" response. If they are going this far out on the limb, they better live with the consequences afterwards.

[rerun]

Also, quick reminder:

Who killed himself in prison?

[PunchesThruWalls]

The people in that prison are breaking the law. The US Government has decided that superheroes have to be registered, trained and accountable. The people in that prison have decided that they are against that. Thus, they are breaking the law. What, they should go "Well this is the right thing to do, but some heroes disagree! We must scrap the act"?

Regardless of the moral and ethical validaity of the law, those people deserve their day in court. They are being denied a basic constitutional right: the right of habeas corpus. Tony has somehow arranged things (or complied with arrangements) such that even the Supreme Court will not get involved in any such writs. This is actually the worse thing he has done, by far.

No one knows if the prisoners in the negative zone are guilty of breaking the SHRA. Why? Because they haven't been put on trial. We can't even assume guilt at this point. All we know is that some set of people have been placed there by Tony and his people. And they will stay there for the rest of their lives - with the complicit help of the US Government and court system.

[CyberCoyote]

Have the anti-reggers do somthing horrible. Realy Realy horrible. Go terrorist and blow up a building, help atlantis invade the US, Start Kicking puppies, somthing like that.

If the anti-reggers start acting as bad as Tony and Reed say the're acting it ligitimizes almost everything they've done.

Yay! Then everyone is unredeemable. Honestly, though, I wouldn't be surprised by something like that. Millar's better at making heroes bad rather than making the bad heroes.

I'm totally happy with Tony going to the Dark Side and being an idealistic villain..the kind of villain who'll go toe to toe with the likes of Doom because in his own mind he's still the good guy. He just doesn't get why everyone is so overwhelmingly short sighted that they don't do what he says :)

Reed on the other hand.. it's getting ugly. What if Tony is somehow manipulating him, controling him on some level? Let's face facts, if you want to take over the world for it's own good you want Reed Richards helping you. The only other guy out there on Tony and Reed's level is Doom and Reed's been a thorn in his side forever. So rather than face off with Richards he starts using some sort of psycho-device on him. Making him beleive all of these false memories that manipulate his beliefs. The Uncle thing is just crazed, a made up memory (which is fine..but it contradicts his perspectives on similar situations from the early days until CW)

Eventually Reed could break free of the influence. Of course I'd think Spidey could have seen through something like that by now. I dunno.

There's gotta be something. Either that or they agreed at the beginning to let Millar change the regular comics into the Ultimateverse and never told the readers.

[lonewolf23k]

I've got a simple way of redeeming Tony to an extent..

...Reveal that he's being manipulated by Kang.


Again.

[Nate Grey]

I don't know about Reed, but with Tony its real simple: he just shrugs and sings the lyrics to "Iron Man" by Black Sabbath.

[NickThompson]

Also, quick reminder:

Who killed himself in prison?
Digitek or something like that.

[yeoman]

Punisher takes out bad people. A guy who sneaks into a hospital and starts performing operations without training is trying to save lives. Where do you draw the line?


The Punisher is a gun-toting maniac known to open fire on the street and, from time to time, totally flip out and start killing Jay Walkers.

The Prowler was an ex-cat burgler who got his life straightened up and wanted to use the stuff he invented to help save lives in a non-lethal manner.

Moreover, the average Super-hero *is* vaguely competent. At the very least the average meta-human is more than capable of taking out street thugs and stopping purse snatchers with casual ease. As such, they *are* qualified to do the job they've chosen to do.

It's not the way the real world works, no. But it's a conceit necessary to have a classic super-hero universe. By saying the average hero can *not* cut it, Marvel tears down the support structure needed for suspension of disbelief.


The people in that prison are breaking the law. The US Government has decided that superheroes have to be registered, trained and accountable. The people in that prison have decided that they are against that.

They didn't make a law just making running around in funny costumes acting as a vigilate illegal. That already was. They just decided to start enforcing it. They made being a meta-human illegal.

Jessica Jones, a woman that wanted to raie her child and spend her life with her husband, she needs to be shipped off to the negative zone just cause she has powers?

Luke Cage, a guy sitting in his apartment needs an armed SHIELD battalion to throw him in prison when he hasn't done anything but exist for five minutes after the law went into effect?

The ****ing GLC got to wait until morning to sign up, and if there's anyone that shouldn't be an active super-hero, it's the guy who saves the universe by killing himself and hoping the villian follows up.

A law that punishes a person for existing is uncontitutional as all get out.

Thus, they are breaking the law.

And dressing up in a pair of tights and stopping a purse snatcher, this is a crime that requires being shipped off to another dimension for all eternity, without trial?

What, they should go "Well this is the right thing to do, but some heroes disagree! We must scrap the act"?

"Well, let's see, Captain America, paragon of virtue, one of like, two living people worthy to lift the ultimate test of being greatest guy in the universe, says it's crackheaded. Maybe we need to rethink this."

The act's Metahuman Registration is unconstutional. It's enforcers actions against the non-meta superhero population breaks a couple of the bill of rights amendments.

[NickThompson]

No one knows if the prisoners in the negative zone are guilty of breaking the SHRA. Why? Because they haven't been put on trial. We can't even assume guilt at this point. All we know is that some set of people have been placed there by Tony and his people. And they will stay there for the rest of their lives - with the complicit help of the US Government and court system.
...unless they sign a piece of paper.

[Narfolin]

If they're breaking the law and being held for breaking said law, NickThomphson, they are guaranteed a trial and the right to face their accusers, among other things, by the Constitution and it's Amendments. Tony & Co. are denying them those rights. Thus, Tony & Co. are breaking the law of the land themselves. Thus, I propose we toss Tony & Co. into the Negative Zone Prison for the rest of their lives.

I mean, they're breaking the law, right?

[NickThompson]

The Punisher is a gun-toting maniac known to open fire on the street and, from time to time, totally flip out and start killing Jay Walkers.

The Prowler was an ex-cat burgler who got his life straightened up and wanted to use the stuff he invented to help save lives in a non-lethal manner.

So would you put my operation guy into the Punisher or Prowler group?


Moreover, the average Super-hero *is* vaguely competent. At the very least the average meta-human is more than capable of taking out street thugs and stopping purse snatchers with casual ease. As such, they *are* qualified to do the job they've chosen to do.
They have the powers, but can they control them? Could you imagine Cyclops as a vigilante if he hadn't met Xavier? Similarly, do they know how to handle themselves in problematic situations such as hostage situations? The Police have trained people for those moments, why would a guy who decides to beat people up know as much? I'm sure someone like Spider-Man would be able to deal with it, but could Gravity?

It's not the way the real world works, no. But it's a conceit necessary to have a classic super-hero universe. By saying the average hero can *not* cut it, Marvel tears down the support structure needed for suspension of disbelief.
I'm not going to argue this point, as while I don't neccesarily agree I fully understand the angle. What's right in the real world isn't neccesarily right in a fictional world, as it is fiction. Tis a fair point.

[spyridona]

...unless they sign a piece of paper.

Which is illegal. :evilangry

[PunchesThruWalls]

...unless they sign a piece of paper.


Burden of proof is always with the government. The government must prove:

a) that the law is constitutional
b) that it applies to person
c) that they did comply with it

Again: the burden of proof lies with the government and it's representatives (Tony). It's up to them to lay out this proof in a court, or let them go.

Those prisoners are literally living in a nightmare. If Tony catches Peter in the next ASM and throws him in the prison, how long will Peter stay there? Tony implied that Peter would spend the rest of his life there. Peter has already registered. Peter would have broken the law of (thinking about) aiding and abetting SHRA breakers. He can't sign a piece of paper and leave.

So when does he get to leave? When is is trial? According to Tony: never.

[NickThompson]

If they're breaking the law and being held for breaking said law, NickThomphson, they are guaranteed a trial and the right to face their accusers, among other things, by the Constitution and it's Amendments. Tony & Co. are denying them those rights. Thus, Tony & Co. are breaking the law of the land themselves. Thus, I propose we toss Tony & Co. into the Negative Zone Prison for the rest of their lives.

I mean, they're breaking the law, right?
The President has made it legal according to ASM. Stark isn't doing anything illegal.




Here's one thing I don't get though. According to the books, anyone in the prison who registers gets out. Considering the fact that at that point a lot of the people int he prison have nothing to lose by registering, shouldn't we have seen someone do it by now?

[SKJAM!]

Here's one thing I don't get though. According to the books, anyone in the prison who registers gets out. Considering the fact that at that point a lot of the people int he prison have nothing to lose by registering, shouldn't we have seen someone do it by now?

Indeed. Apparently, no one's got around to trying to sign up any of these people except Speedball, and he's kind of a special case.

[yeoman]

They have the powers, but can they control them? Could you imagine Cyclops as a vigilante if he hadn't met Xavier? Similarly, do they know how to handle themselves in problematic situations such as hostage situations? The Police have trained people for those moments, why would a guy who decides to beat people up know as much? I'm sure someone like Spider-Man would be able to deal with it, but could Gravity?


The average SUper-hero really tends to look for situations where they can just hit someone and have things done with. Unless they have powers perfectly suited for a situation or can completely come in by surprise and wrap things up quick.

IOW, the average Cape doesn't in that bad over his head. The ones that do, and screw up usually had to deal with repurcussions. The Por-reg people keep asking like super-heroes got people killed every day and weren't acountable for it. Which wasn't the case.

[El Santo]

The President has made it legal according to ASM. Stark isn't doing anything illegal.




Here's one thing I don't get though. According to the books, anyone in the prison who registers gets out. Considering the fact that at that point a lot of the people int he prison have nothing to lose by registering, shouldn't we have seen someone do it by now?
The thing is, the President *can't* make it legal to indefinitely imprison American citizens without trial. Hell, according to the Supreme Court, he can't even do that to enemy combatants captured in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[lonewolf23k]

The President has made it legal according to ASM. Stark isn't doing anything illegal.

Just because something's legal doesn't make it right.

Here's one thing I don't get though. According to the books, anyone in the prison who registers gets out. Considering the fact that at that point a lot of the people int he prison have nothing to lose by registering, shouldn't we have seen someone do it by now?

They still have one thing to lose by registering. Their pride. Never underestimate how hard some people are willing to fight to hold on to that last bit of their pride and self-respect by continuing to deny their oppressors in spite of everything that's been done to them.

[Kirk G]

I've got a simple way of redeeming Tony to an extent..

...Reveal that he's being manipulated by Kang.


Again.
I'm wondering about this one more and more...
But Joe Q has said there is no single supervillian behind it all.

But I do like the idea of Zemo being the ultimate threat with all the Masters of Evil and so, everyone setting asside the fight to ban together and save the world from Evil... (or, next month, The return of The Hulk!):rolleyes:

[Kirk G]

The thing is, the President *can't* make it legal to indefinitely imprison American citizens without trial. Hell, according to the Supreme Court, he can't even do that to enemy combatants captured in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yeah, I see this CW thing as a riff on the whole Guantanemo thing, The MaCarthy hearings, and the whole Nazi/Jew (first they came for the bankers, then the bakers, then the mutants, then the jews... finally, when they came for me, there was no one left to object) thing...

I think if we are going to argue that Tony hasn't done anything illegal, then we should also examine Peter's role so far in ASM 375. So far, HE hasn't done anything illegal either. First, he unmasked, he registered, he has cooperated, and he's advised his family to leave his host's house. Unless he's sabotaged the prizon or broken someone out or visited Cap's lair to aid him off panel...HE'S DONE NOTHING WRONG, NOTHING ILLEGAL, AND SHOULDN'T BE ARRESTED.... but then, when has that ever stopped two Marvel heroes from fighting first and talking it out second?:rolleyes:

[Vaal]

...unless they sign a piece of paper.
A piece of paper that effectively makes them the property of SHIELD to do with as they see fit.

The same SHIELD the Avengers were investigating for corruption before Millar grabbed the wheel and threw the whole bloody world into a sea of shoddy politcal commentary based on an old X-men plot that was done to death a decade ago.

I'm just wondering when a big, pink version of Tony comes from the future to kill Cap.

[Kirk G]

Which is illegal. :evilangry
Only illegal after a court states that it is unconstitutional, which, if I follow the appearances of the Watcher, and the living tribunal in She-Hulk, and Jen Walters, any of those three judges could enter and effect the change in CW #7.
I think it's not accidental that all three of Marvel's big gun lawyers who might press or present a case or brief to the supreme court are tied up right now.
But one could STILL get an injunction to suspend the measure pending review... and I think you could argue that it would hold up UNTIL heard by the Supreme Court.

Still, I like to think that there will be some mind-influencing villian revealed who has been influencing heroes and the Pro-team and surpressing their conscience. I think Spidey in ASM 375 has just stirred up Reed's enough for him to flip, sabotage, or aid the anti team when the chips are down. I think that's part of the point.

Plus, there ARE spies on both sides right now... that has been stated by Marvel...and we're going to see some of them outed and revealed. One could be Nighthawk and company, Hawkeye, Nick Fury, Sue Carter, Goliath, and we all know that Spidey and Sue are flipping. I wonder if the FF will line up against one another in their own book. Will Sue go to Namor for help or refuge? Will he let her? Will she get Nitro back to spill the beans and reveal who in the govt or Washington has supplied Nitro with MGH to cause a dissaster and trigger the registration act.... or will it go back even further and be revealed that the prizon outbreak from the Raft was an attempt to provoke enough damage that the registration act will/would occur. What if it was Kang who knew that a disaster had to happen to trigger the registration act... and so, engineered or influenced things enough to not only tear down the old Avengers, but also provide the excuse for the registration act and his puppet Tony Stark to blaze the way?

Yeah, I'm up for Kang to have a hand in causing this whole thing, but who has the mental influence? Empath? Mentallo? Moondragon? Sheild Espers? Puppet Master? Mad Thinker? The Controller? (Yeah, he hates Tony enough!) Mandarin? Hank Pym?

Come-on, give me some help her, guys.

[Vaal]

Yeah, I'm up for Kang to have a hand in causing this whole thing, but who has the mental influence? Empath? Mentallo? Moondragon? Sheild Espers? Puppet Master? Mad Thinker? The Controller? (Yeah, he hates Tony enough!) Mandarin? Hank Pym?

Come-on, give me some help her, guys.
Hill. Who is actually... Wanda! :eek:

Dun Dun DUUUUUN.

[PatrickG]

The President has made it legal according to ASM. Stark isn't doing anything illegal.




Here's one thing I don't get though. According to the books, anyone in the prison who registers gets out. Considering the fact that at that point a lot of the people int he prison have nothing to lose by registering, shouldn't we have seen someone do it by now?

The president can't make something unconstitutional legal.

[bulbasteve]

Burden of proof is always with the government. The government must prove:

a) that the law is constitutional
b) that it applies to person
c) that they did comply with it

Well technically they wouldn't have to prove it is constitutional unless it was in the Supreme Court or the appeal was based on the constitutionality of the law. Any law that is made is by default consitutional until the Supreme Court overturns it, and in any criminal case it would be like that as well. And in reality typically it is the side saying a law is unconstitutional that really does have to prove it, because rarely is there is a law that is so on the face of it unconstitutional (not to mention how much interpretation there always is with it).

Anyway most of these guys seem to be getting caught in costume so even if there was a trial it doesn't sound like it would be hard to prove it.

Not that marvel would ever do any real court case on this since they probably know less about what the law entails than we do. Plus have you seen when She-Hulk is actually in court? I'd be way more offended at them mischaracterizing the courts again than Stark or Reed's portrayl :p

[TotalWorldDomination]

No. It wouldn't. It would make them just as bad and mean there were virtually no super-heroes left on the plaent. The Runaways and the Thunderbolts would be left as the most morally superior meta-humans on MU Earth.

One's opponent being just as bad as you does not legitimize one's immoral and illegal actions, nor redeem them.

There are times when one can't afford to be nice when stopping evil. There are times when you need Wolverine. This is not one. The people Tony is throwing into the Negative Zone wanted to make the world a better place and save lives. Tony wants to be king high asshat of the universe.

First rule of debating and poltical public relations, you don't have to prove yourself right, you just have to make the other person more wrong. Right now Tony and them are more wrong. Cap gets lowered down, and suddenly Tony and Reed's methods look appropreate to deal with the threat level posed.

Nothing they've done is out and out evil, it's only evil when compared to how little the anti-reggers have done. Have them do more, and it all evens out.

[yeoman]

First rule of debating and poltical public relations, you don't have to prove yourself right, you just have to make the other person more wrong. Right now Tony and them are more wrong. Cap gets lowered down, and suddenly Tony and Reed's methods look appropreate to deal with the threat level posed.


That doesn't redeem what Reed and Tony did though. It just makes the other side more wrong. What you're arguing is that two wrongs actually make a right.

By this logic the guys who shot the Punisher's family are totally redeemed because the Punisher is a total psycho that has been known to shoot jaywalkers. So anything they did to him is fine.

[TotalWorldDomination]

No, it dosn't redeem what they've done. It redeems them. It makes them look good by comparison. as I took it, the question was more how could you redeem them in the eyes of the public. If tony and reed totaly called cap going crazy, the methods they use would not look insane at all.

[Vaal]

No, it dosn't redeem what they've done. It redeems them. It makes them look good by comparison. as I took it, the question was more how could you redeem them in the eyes of the public. If tony and reed totaly called cap going crazy, the methods they use would not look insane at all.
I think the thread is more about redeeming them in the eyes of the fanbase, not the human torch beating trogs that serves as citizens of the MU.

Tony could just beat up one of his villain buddies on TV and get them back after all.

[TotalWorldDomination]

I think the thread is more about redeeming them in the eyes of the fanbase, not the human torch beating trogs that serves as citizens of the MU.

Tony could just beat up one of his villain buddies on TV and get them back after all.

I am refering to the fan base. Tony and Reed look bad, only by comparison. It gets very hard to critizise tony for locking people up without trial if those same people start blowing up civilians.

it's impossible right now for us to view CW as balenced because Tony and Reed have done so many ethicaly sketchy things. You can't make those things un-sketchy. The Only way to balence these things is to bring cap down. Show the Anti-reg dark side. That restores balence and goes a long way to "reedeeming" the characters in the eyes of the fanbase.

[yeoman]

No, it dosn't redeem what they've done. It redeems them. It makes them look good by comparison. as I took it, the question was more how could you redeem them in the eyes of the public.

The MU public already thinks their squeeky clean.


If tony and reed totaly called cap going crazy, the methods they use would not look insane at all.

Even if Cap tore Iron Man's head off with his bare hands on national TV it wouldn't excuse half the crap Tony's done if it was made public.

And if we're to believe this was all Tony's natural reaction, there is nothing that can morally and ethically excuse what he's done.

[yeoman]

I think the thread is more about redeeming them in the eyes of the fanbase, not the human torch beating trogs that serves as citizens of the MU.


I took it as morally and ethically excusing what Tony and Reed have done.

[Vaal]

I took it as morally and ethically excusing what Tony and Reed have done.
I'm just going off the 'in your eyes' comment in the original post. If its evolved beyond that, I'm incorrect.

[XPac]

The Only way to balence these things is to bring cap down. Show the Anti-reg dark side. That restores balence and goes a long way to "reedeeming" the characters in the eyes of the fanbase.

What darkside would you really expect from Captain America? The most you can imagine Cap doing is attacking SHIELD agents, and he's already done that many many times.

It's simply not realistic for Captain America to act much worse than how he's acting now.

[yeoman]

I'm just going off the 'in your eyes' comment in the original post. If its evolved beyond that, I'm incorrect.


In my eyes it the same thing. Redeeming him to me requires that, or just an editoral handwave that this never happened. Like the Clone Saga.

[Vaal]

He could take out more SHIELD facilities. Not just places stocked with agents, but places with civilian employees and such there. Or, as someone mentioned eleswhere, he hits a hellicarrier and ends up crashing it into somewhere. That's about all I can think of, unless they're going to take him completely out of character too and have him take hostages or something.

Cap really is in the position the X-men had been in for decades and really they're *still* screwed, so it makes you wonder how his side could 'win' or even give the impression of having a chance of winning this anyway without doing something entirely out of character and unheroic.

[kalorama]

He could take out more SHIELD facilities. Not just places stocked with agents, but places with civilian employees and such there. Or, as someone mentioned eleswhere, he hits a hellicarrier and ends up crashing it into somewhere. That's about all I can think of, unless they're going to take him completely out of character too and have him take hostages or something.

Cap really is in the position the X-men had been in for decades and really they're *still* screwed, so it makes you wonder how his side could 'win' or even give the impression of having a chance of winning this anyway without doing something entirely out of character and unheroic.

What point would there be in attacking the SHIELD Helicarrier? It really wouldn't serve any real purpose in regards to Cap's mission and would just as out of character as taking hostages. The way Cap wins is to stick to his principles and let Stark continue to dig his own grave as he sinks deeper into the mess he's helped create.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

If you ask me - granted, I'm in a cynical mood at the moment - Reed and Tony could be redeemed simply by hog-tying Jenkins until this is over, stationing editorial assistants with electric cattle-prods and an explanation of 'rational pro-reg' in JMS's and Bendis's offices, and leaving Millar the hell alone to tell his story without half the tie-ins demonising one side of it.

In-story... Reed, probably by revealing some gloriously good plan that he's working towards, that'll actually save lives and make the world a better place. He's a scientist, it's not at all out of character for him to get fixated on the laudable goal and ignore the questionable methods used to get there.

Tony... I just don't know. Up until he went from zero to threatening Peter Parker with life in prison in the latest ASM for speaking against him once, I could buy his point of view. Now I just don't know how he could be redeemed. I'm basically mentally disconnecting 'that' Tony from the 'real' one in the miniseries, and any book that is in accord with it. Miniseries Tony has never really crossed the line, in my view, so I don't think he's any less redeemable than the harsh, zealous Cap we're seeing at the moment.

[PunchesThruWalls]

Well technically they wouldn't have to prove it is constitutional unless it was in the Supreme Court or the appeal was based on the constitutionality of the law. Any law that is made is by default consitutional until the Supreme Court overturns it, and in any criminal case it would be like that as well. And in reality typically it is the side saying a law is unconstitutional that really does have to prove it, because rarely is there is a law that is so on the face of it unconstitutional (not to mention how much interpretation there always is with it).


Not to get totally anal here, but you can plead not guilty and your reason be that the law is unconstitutional in your original court appearances, not just appeals. Lawrence v. Texas is a recent example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas). It is true that the case was appealed up through the court system to the Supreme Court, but that reason was given in a regular criminal court.

I may be incorrect about where the burden of proof lies in such a claim, though. It may lie with the defendant.

[bulbasteve]

Not to get totally anal here, but you can plead not guilty and your reason be that the law is unconstitutional in your original court appearances, not just appeals. Lawrence v. Texas is a recent example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas). It is true that the case was appealed up through the court system to the Supreme Court, but that reason was given in a regular criminal court.

I may be incorrect about where the burden of proof lies in such a claim, though. It may lie with the defendant.

Your right, I wasn't thinking. This is also probably why I stuck with Poli Sci and never went into Law :D

I seriously thought the criminal guilt or innocence had to be done before you could do any of that....umm...oops! Yeah you could ask to dismiss the charges.

I guess the burden may technically still be on the state but they wouldn't really need to say much of anything, since most judges at the lowest levels would deem most laws constitutional anyway at first...I guess. But in the registration example you could get almost any judge to deem it unconstiutional (activist judges!). And they did say She-Hulk was doing a public trial in Civil War Files, why noone else tried a constitutional argument before that I wouldn't know...but then again they are anti-reg so they are kinda dumb ;p

Thanks for crushing my dreams of ever going to get that law degree though :p

[Jmacq1]

I hope future writers just ignore this idiotic story. IT never made sense and was designed to reshape everythng without a plan or much of a thought.

My god....Civil War is really one giant allegory for the Iraq Invasion! :p

But more to the topic: Tony is at this point much less "redeemable" than Reed. Reed could just "change his mind" at a critical moment and it would mostly be "all is well" with him. Particularly if he did it in such a fashion as to sabotage Tony's plans. Let him get his "smartest man in the Marvel Universe" cred back, please? It seems like Marvel handed that off to Tony and made Reed his b****.

But actually, I'm still convinced that Tony's side will "win", so that Marvel comics for the next few years -can- be one giant allegory for "occupied Iraq" in the form of the "50 States Initiative". Won't that be fun?

Tony's going to need a Wanda-fying or a mind-controlling or an evil alternate reality clone to ever be looked at as a real "hero" again...and the same can largely be said of anyone that sticks with him to the end if they're fully aware of what's been going on on his side.

An assassination of Tony does nothing to redeem the character in the readers' eyes. He'd have to fly off into space and single-handedly stop the Annihilation Wave at the cost of his own life before he'd start to regain some "hero cred".

[bulbasteve]

But actually, I'm still convinced that Tony's side will "win", so that Marvel comics for the next few years -can- be one giant allegory for "occupied Iraq" in the form of the "50 States Initiative". Won't that be fun?


Oh god, I never even considered that writers would still suck after the main title was over. I figured they would all get a flash of inspiration and realize they were sucking and decide to fair stories. But it will probably just be more of the same.

Thanks for bursting my bubble there. At least Millar is writing a post-Civil War book, right? Probably the new Thunderbolts team or something?

[TotalWorldDomination]

What darkside would you really expect from Captain America? The most you can imagine Cap doing is attacking SHIELD agents, and he's already done that many many times.

It's simply not realistic for Captain America to act much worse than how he's acting now.

And it was realistic for Tony Stark to threaten the well-being of Aunt May and Mary Jane? Reed Richards doing somthing just because it's "The Rules" is realistic? Is there anything the Pro-Reg side has done that makes a lick of sense when compared to how there characters have been writen for decades?

Let's face it, they are throwing character history to the wind in this series.

Plus, who's to say that any moment now Steve's mind might start going due to the ravages of the Super Soilder Formula? At least that's what they'll retcon it to being after he starts doing somthing horrible.

Not that I think they'd actualy have him do something horrible. It's quite clear balence is not the goal- making tony stark the villian is.

[jaxcs]

He could take out more SHIELD facilities. Not just places stocked with agents, but places with civilian employees and such there. Or, as someone mentioned eleswhere, he hits a hellicarrier and ends up crashing it into somewhere. That's about all I can think of, unless they're going to take him completely out of character too and have him take hostages or something.

Cap really is in the position the X-men had been in for decades and really they're *still* screwed, so it makes you wonder how his side could 'win' or even give the impression of having a chance of winning this anyway without doing something entirely out of character and unheroic.

That is just nuts. You would have Cap AMERICA kill civilians in a fashion reminicent of 9/11 just to salavage the rep of TS and RR? The SHRA isn't that interesting. Dude, Cap wears a flag on his costume. He has the flag on his sheild. You really want to link him to muslim terrorists like this?

[Sijo]

Tony's going to need a Wanda-fying or a mind-controlling or an evil alternate reality clone to ever be looked at as a real "hero" again...and the same can largely be said of anyone that sticks with him to the end if they're fully aware of what's been going on on his side.

Actually, that's already happened.

We're not dealing with the ORIGINAL Tony Stark. He's DEAD. Died way back in "The Crossing" story arc in Avengers, in the 90's, where we found out that Kang (actually, Immortus) was manipulating him into betraying the Avengers.

The Iron Man we have today is a Tony taken from "the past" (an alternate reality, more likely) as a TEENAGER to help beat the Kang-controlled one (anyone remember the much-hated "Teen Tony" arc in Iron Man?) THAT Tony "died" during the battle with Onslaught, and was recreated (as an adult Tony) by Franklin Richards in the Heroes Reborn crossover, also in the 90's. That one came back to Earth and just took over the original's life, but somewhere there's a grave with the original Stark in it.

Don't look at me, I don't write this stuff. This IS canon, as far as I know. The question is: does that explain why Tony is worse today than he was before? And how come nobody says, "Yeah, well, you betrayed us once, you know"? or "How do we know you're not under somebody's influence again?" Poor writer/editor research, most likely...

[Jmacq1]

Actually, that's already happened.

We're not dealing with the ORIGINAL Tony Stark. He's DEAD. Died way back in "The Crossing" story arc in Avengers, in the 90's, where we found out that Kang (actually, Immortus) was manipulating him into betraying the Avengers.

The Iron Man we have today is a Tony taken from "the past" (an alternate reality, more likely) as a TEENAGER to help beat the Kang-controlled one (anyone remember the much-hated "Teen Tony" arc in Iron Man?) THAT Tony "died" during the battle with Onslaught, and was recreated (as an adult Tony) by Franklin Richards in the Heroes Reborn crossover, also in the 90's. That one came back to Earth and just took over the original's life, but somewhere there's a grave with the original Stark in it.

Don't look at me, I don't write this stuff. This IS canon, as far as I know. The question is: does that explain why Tony is worse today than he was before? And how come nobody says, "Yeah, well, you betrayed us once, you know"? or "How do we know you're not under somebody's influence again?" Poor writer/editor research, most likely...

Yeah, I knew all that....just that he'll need -another- one to be "fixed". And probably not poor research...just ignoring the past in favor of the latest whiz-bang story. Though really the events of "Armor Wars", and "The Crossing" both provide a pretty solid basis for Tony doing some of the things he's doing in "Civil War".

[DoctorDoom]

Reed Richard's portrayals in this week's amazing spider-man and frontline show a better (imo more reeding side) of Reed.

[yeoman]

If you ask me - granted, I'm in a cynical mood at the moment - Reed and Tony could be redeemed simply by hog-tying Jenkins until this is over, stationing editorial assistants with electric cattle-prods and an explanation of 'rational pro-reg' in JMS's and Bendis's offices, and leaving Millar the hell alone to tell his story without half the tie-ins demonising one side of it.


YEAH! Millar's doing a great job portraying both sides as incompetent jerks!

[Vaal]

That is just nuts. You would have Cap AMERICA kill civilians in a fashion reminicent of 9/11 just to salavage the rep of TS and RR?
No, I wouldn't. I'm just hypothesizing what they *could* have done that's only a bit out of character (meaning any civilian deaths would be accidents). I don't actually want to salvage Tony at all. I want him to fall, actually.

The SHRA isn't that interesting.
Frankly, it was a force of evil ever since it was aimed at mutants.

Dude, Cap wears a flag on his costume. He has the flag on his sheild. You really want to link him to muslim terrorists like this?
1) Why do I care what flag he wears?
2) Every other character is being melted down into a pile of suck and reforged into Millar's own image, why not Cap too?

[TotalWorldDomination]

Modern Jihadist Terrorists Wrap themselves in the teachings of Islam and then go out and violate those principals by killing innocent civilans.

why can't cap wrap himself in the flag and then commit acts of terrorism?

They've turned Tony into a bastard, Reed into a robot, why not cap into a full-blown terrorist?

[TotalWorldDomination]

If you ask me - granted, I'm in a cynical mood at the moment - Reed and Tony could be redeemed simply by hog-tying Jenkins until this is over, stationing editorial assistants with electric cattle-prods and an explanation of 'rational pro-reg' in JMS's and Bendis's offices, and leaving Millar the hell alone to tell his story without half the tie-ins demonising one side of it.

In-story... Reed, probably by revealing some gloriously good plan that he's working towards, that'll actually save lives and make the world a better place. He's a scientist, it's not at all out of character for him to get fixated on the laudable goal and ignore the questionable methods used to get there.

Tony... I just don't know. Up until he went from zero to threatening Peter Parker with life in prison in the latest ASM for speaking against him once, I could buy his point of view. Now I just don't know how he could be redeemed. I'm basically mentally disconnecting 'that' Tony from the 'real' one in the miniseries, and any book that is in accord with it. Miniseries Tony has never really crossed the line, in my view, so I don't think he's any less redeemable than the harsh, zealous Cap we're seeing at the moment.

Could we tie up Brevhort as well? perhaps replace him with Wacker? he's coming over to Marvel, sounds like the perfect time for an editorial switch.

[XPac]

And it was realistic for Tony Stark to threaten the well-being of Aunt May and Mary Jane? Reed Richards doing somthing just because it's "The Rules" is realistic? Is there anything the Pro-Reg side has done that makes a lick of sense when compared to how there characters have been writen for decades?

Let's face it, they are throwing character history to the wind in this series.

Plus, who's to say that any moment now Steve's mind might start going due to the ravages of the Super Soilder Formula? At least that's what they'll retcon it to being after he starts doing somthing horrible.

Not that I think they'd actualy have him do something horrible. It's quite clear balence is not the goal- making tony stark the villian is.

I actually do find it believable that Tony would use the potential danger of MJ and his Aunt as a way to try and manipulate Peter. I don't think he'd personally do anything to actualy harm them... but I do think using the possibiity of harm coming to them as a way of pulling Peter's strings isn't beneath him.

That's the difference between Cap and Tony... Tony is a dick. So it's far more believable when he acts like one.

And I don't think Reed is doing anything just because it's the RULE. I think like Stark, he's a futurist that saw the potential problems and wanted to head them off at the pass. The methods are unethical, but the end result in his mind I'm sure is logically sound otherwise he and Tony wouldn't be supporting it in the first place.

As for the issue of balance... if writing Cap in an uncharacteristic manner is what is necessary to achieve this balance, then screw balance and just tell the story. I don't see how Cap acting like a villian would make the story in any way more logical or enjoyable. If anything I suspect it would make it less so on both fronts.

[Wind-Breaker]

I know a way Stark can redeem himself. It can be revealed that he was doing all this to impress Hill. Behind every man’s ambitious plan, is a motivation to get laid. He can just say he did it all for the "nookie" :p

All lame jokes aside, Reed can be redeemed (like mentioned earlier) by changing his mind, and sabotaging Stark's plans. Stark would be a bit more complicated. Hmm.... I know! They could say the spit from the distraught mother was mind-control serum....naw too lame. They can say that its really Tony Stark Prime from another dimension....naw too DC. Ah crap I got nothing :confused:

[PunchesThruWalls]

I know a way Stark can redeem himself. It can be revealed that he was doing all this to impress Hill. Behind every man’s ambitious plan, is a motivation to get laid. He can just say he did it all for the "nookie" :p

All lame jokes aside, Reed can be redeemed (like mentioned earlier) by changing his mind, and sabotaging Stark's plans. Stark would be a bit more complicated. Hmm.... I know! They could say the spit from the distraught mother was mind-control serum....naw too lame. They can say that its really Tony Stark Prime from another dimension....naw too DC. Ah crap I got nothing :confused:

Quesada was recently quoted as saying there weren't any really great Marvel villains anymore. And he's right. All the really iconic villians seem to have been forgotten or neutered.

This is a perfect time for Tony to not be redeemed. He should move on to become the Luthor of 616. I would be much more interested in him in that role, especially if he continued to believe in his moral and ethical righteousness. I've never liked him as a hero.

[XPac]

Quesada was recently quoted as saying there weren't any really great Marvel villains anymore. And he's right. All the really iconic villians seem to have been forgotten or neutered.

This is a perfect time for Tony to not be redeemed. He should move on to become the Luthor of 616. I would be much more interested in him in that role, especially if he continued to believe in his moral and ethical righteousness. I've never liked him as a hero.

That's a fair point. Tony would make for a very good antagonist. Almost Hal Jordon in a way as Parallax (minus the stupid yellow demon retcon), in that he works because he's not one dimensional. He's a villian that to a degree you can sort of sympathize.

It will be interesting to see what route they go with him. Wanda at least was nuts... Stark seems to know what he's doing.

[Wind-Breaker]

Quesada was recently quoted as saying there weren't any really great Marvel villains anymore. And he's right. All the really iconic villians seem to have been forgotten or neutered.

This is a perfect time for Tony to not be redeemed. He should move on to become the Luthor of 616. I would be much more interested in him in that role, especially if he continued to believe in his moral and ethical righteousness. I've never liked him as a hero.

Even though I really like Tony as villain, there would be several issues if he did go full-out turncoat. One would be the solo title, would it just be showing Stark in his evil ways? The gimmick of villains with on-going series gets old really quick. What about the long time Iron-man fans? They would be mega pissed to see their favorite character portrayed in this way, after years of characterization. The whole concept is somewhat redundant too. Evil genius, wearing an metal suit, who's does what he feels is right no matter who gets hurts.... sounds like Doctor Doom. Do we need another Doctor Doom?

I really like Stark as a villain for now, but in the long-term I don't see how it can be executed right.

[XPac]

Even though I really like Tony as villain, there would be several issues if he did go full-out turncoat. One would be the solo title, would it just be showing Stark in his evil ways? The gimmick of villains with on-going series gets old really quick. What about the long time Iron-man fans? They would be mega pissed to see their favorite character portrayed in this way, after years of characterization. The whole concept is somewhat redundant too. Evil genius, wearing an metal suit, who's does what he feels is right no matter who gets hurts.... sounds like Doctor Doom. Do we need another Doctor Doom?

I really like Stark as a villain for now, but in the long-term I don't see how it can be executed right.

IF they were to do this, I think the obvious sollution would be to just replace Iron Man the same way they did Hal with Kyle.

Some people have argued that the Iron Man we've seen in the previews of Mighty Avengers doesn't seem like Tony Stark. Of course, the long time Iron Man fans will likely be POed... nothing anyone can do about that.

[jim1175]

They themselves can be revealed to be clones & the real Richards & Stark can return to defeat them! Then they would be heroes again.



Assuming Marvel is not going to go down the "Skrull/ Space Phantom/ Manipulated by a villain" path, what would it take in your eyes to redeem Tony Stark and Reed Richards?

Or are those ways the only way to redeem Stark and Richards in your eyes after everything they have done?

A list of some of the things they have done:

- Building a prison in the negative zone that makes the prisoners miserable (and one killed himself). Keeping them there without a trial and for the rest of their lives (unless they agree to register).

- Cloning their MIA friend Thor as a mindless weapon slave and sending this Thor clone out into the field without having full control over him. This action led to the death of Black Goliath.

- Very secretive about the whole process to the public and even to "allies" (Spider-Man sure as hell didn't know about the Negative Zone prison thing and then jumped ship after learning about it).

- Essentially creating a Marvel form of The Suicide Squad. Using villains such as Venom, Bullseye, and The Green Goblin to do it.

So, short of going down the "skrull/ space phantom/ manipulated by a villain" route, is there anything Marvel can do to make Tony and Reed seem "heroic" in your eyes?

[Kefky]

IF they were to do this, I think the obvious sollution would be to just replace Iron Man the same way they did Hal with Kyle.

Some people have argued that the Iron Man we've seen in the previews of Mighty Avengers doesn't seem like Tony Stark. Of course, the long time Iron Man fans will likely be POed... nothing anyone can do about that.

One thing to keep in mind, though, Bendis mentioned in one of the interviews that the mighty avengers were handpicked by Tony Stark.

So I think the solution's that he'll be somehow in hiding running the team in the background.

[TimmyTony]

Hatemonger.

[jaxcs]

1) Why do I care what flag he wears?
2) Every other character is being melted down into a pile of suck and reforged into Millar's own image, why not Cap too?

why can't cap wrap himself in the flag and then commit acts of terrorism?

You fellas need to go register for the SHRA for I have discovered your costumed identities. You are the Bitter-Men and together you are the Bitter-Twins.

[Phrozen]

IF they were to do this, I think the obvious sollution would be to just replace Iron Man the same way they did Hal with Kyle.

Some people have argued that the Iron Man we've seen in the previews of Mighty Avengers doesn't seem like Tony Stark. Of course, the long time Iron Man fans will likely be POed... nothing anyone can do about that.

Well, Iron Man fans are already POed by this Civil War nonsense.

[Kefky]

Well, Iron Man fans are already POed by this Civil War nonsense.

Fan gets POed about everything, honestly. It'll never stop the big two from trying new things, though. Some you're gonna love, some you're gonna hate. Life goes on. ;)

[phantom1592]

IF they were to do this, I think the obvious sollution would be to just replace Iron Man the same way they did Hal with Kyle.

Some people have argued that the Iron Man we've seen in the previews of Mighty Avengers doesn't seem like Tony Stark. Of course, the long time Iron Man fans will likely be POed... nothing anyone can do about that.


They did that with Teen Tony.... it ended.... poorly

[Zero Hunter]

They did that with Teen Tony.... it ended.... poorly

They did it with Jim Rhodes too, and that went pretty well for a quite a while. I can maybe see Tony getting hurt so bad that he can't continue on as Iron Man. Maybe he picks a new person to wear the suit and has sort of a Bruce Wayne/Terry Maguines relationship like they had in the Batman Beyond cartoon. That way Stark would still be involved, but the other heroes would nto have to see or know about him.

[Jerry Kraut]

They did that with Teen Tony.... it ended.... poorly

It's a question of execution, compare the reactions to these,
Barry>>>Wally and Hal>>>Kyle

If they do it in a way that doesn't agitate the fans too much it could easily last a couple of years.
And at this point most people would be quite happy to get less Tony Stark face time. Even Iron Man fans, me for example.

[phantom1592]

They did it with Jim Rhodes too, and that went pretty well for a quite a while. I can maybe see Tony getting hurt so bad that he can't continue on as Iron Man. Maybe he picks a new person to wear the suit and has sort of a Bruce Wayne/Terry Maguines relationship like they had in the Batman Beyond cartoon. That way Stark would still be involved, but the other heroes would nto have to see or know about him.


I don't know. They seem to have tried so hard to distance him from the injured/broken Tony that we had for decades and pump him up with this weird virus thing to back track now.

Speaking of which Tony has had a pierced heart, and artificial heart, Paralyzed outside his armor, Paralyzed completly where he needed to remote control his armor from his bed.....

There would have to be some REALLY major crap happen to him where he COULDN'T be Iron Man anymore.

[XPac]

They did that with Teen Tony.... it ended.... poorly

True. Replacing a character is a very diffucult thing to do.

I personally liked Kyle and thought that worked fine, but longtime Hal fans I'm sure would disagree with me.

I don't think the fact that the Teen Tony arc was poor means that it's necessarily an unworkable idea though if that's the direction they want to go in.

They don't have to make Tony a villian... but the foundation is there if that's the direction they want to go down. Redeeming the character is obviously the other way to do, and that's fine as well.

[Zero Hunter]

I don't know. They seem to have tried so hard to distance him from the injured/broken Tony that we had for decades and pump him up with this weird virus thing to back track now.

Speaking of which Tony has had a pierced heart, and artificial heart, Paralyzed outside his armor, Paralyzed completly where he needed to remote control his armor from his bed.....

There would have to be some REALLY major crap happen to him where he COULDN'T be Iron Man anymore.

Tony has so much mechanical stuff in his body it would not take to much to truly screw him by just frying all that. I think he still have nanotech that makes him not paralyed, and the artifical heart thing going, or even whateve that weird virus thing is to jsut tunr on him and mess him up. A big old blast of super lighting from on of the Thor clones should be enough to if not destroy at least weaken the hell out of all that stuff in him that keeps him going.

It would be the best way to take him out of the spotlight for a while without killing him at least until the damage to his rep in the fans eyes and the other super heroes eyes fades a bit.

[shades of eternity]

kinda crazy idea based on spidey 2

if he has that many nanite in his body, could they be influencing his behavior, especially an overwhelming need to maintain order?

[TotalWorldDomination]

You fellas need to go register for the SHRA for I have discovered your costumed identities. You are the Bitter-Men and together you are the Bitter-Twins.

Too late, I already registered. It was a pretty easy process. They were confused that my only power was to point out when Comic fanboys have been lied to. I still get a pension though. And a neat-o costume.

Bitter-Man Away!!!

On a more serious note, I'm not quite bitter. More pissed that the whole "Fair and Balanced thing" seems to have been an utter lie.

I don't know. They seem to have tried so hard to distance him from the injured/broken Tony that we had for decades and pump him up with this weird virus thing to back track now.

Speaking of which Tony has had a pierced heart, and artificial heart, Paralyzed outside his armor, Paralyzed completly where he needed to remote control his armor from his bed.....

There would have to be some REALLY major crap happen to him where he COULDN'T be Iron Man anymore.

Like being assasinated ala Abe Lincoln? ;)

[CMBMOOL]

For Reed to be a hero once more is to once again seeing his wife in danger of being killed and he snaps out of his science trance to sheilds off the attack thus saving her life. :)

For Tony to be a hero again is for him to capture Captain America and feeling bad for it and is getting bad PR from the public and Cap fans, until he frees him and then let him escape again. :o

That how I see them redeeming themselves.

[Taniwha]

For Tony to be redeemed, he needs to admit he's wrong, then bring the Hulk back to earth, apologize to him, and then allow the Hulk to beat him until he's nothing but paste. 24 pages or so of Hulk punching Tony Stark to powder. That'd be nice.


Let's say that again, on a larger scale. For the Marvel 616 Universe to not suck after this Civil War fiasco, for it to be able to return to the comic books we once loved, Marvel should kill off Tony Stark, forever, not bring him back, and sacrifice him, leaving only a Benedict Arnold-like stain on the canon.

If Tony is redeemed and becomes Super Best Pals with Cap and Spidey again, then Marvel's pulled some sort of deus ex machina crap.

Remember when Grant Morrison crapped on decades of X-Men canon and storyline with Xorneto?

Millar did him one better. Not simplu screwing over a single character set, Millar - intentionally or not - has permanently and fatally damaged the entire mainstream Marvel universe's viability, by making its heroes no longer respectable, worth reading, worth buying, credible, trustworthy, however you want to say it.

Between Millar's 616-icide and Bendis' major revamps of the last few years, Ultimate universe writers have space to say "wow, the Ultimate Universe sure sells better and isn't as divisive or failed, forget reading 616 books, come read Ultimate!"

[Taniwha]

And it was realistic for Tony Stark to threaten the well-being of Aunt May and Mary Jane? Reed Richards doing somthing just because it's "The Rules" is realistic? Is there anything the Pro-Reg side has done that makes a lick of sense when compared to how there characters have been writen for decades?

Not a damn thing, no. They've dicked over the characters entirely.

Let's face it, they are throwing character history to the wind in this series.

Or just ruining characters for good.


Plus, who's to say that any moment now Steve's mind might start going due to the ravages of the Super Soilder Formula? At least that's what they'll retcon it to being after he starts doing somthing horrible.

Not that I think they'd actualy have him do something horrible. It's quite clear balence is not the goal- making tony stark the villian is.

Yep. True. While I have become the #1 Iron Man hater on the planet at this point, and would relish in seeing the character's popularity shrivel, as I think nothing can make the character 'redeemed'... I have to agree with you, the whole thing where Marvel said the two sides would be portrayed evenhandedly?

Bullsh!t. If Iron Man's so hip to the law, why would he threaten Aunt May for chrissakes? Marvel's gone too far to the extreme in this storyline. They've basically ruined the entire slate of characters at this point.

[Pro]

Remember when Grant Morrison crapped on decades of X-Men canon and storyline with Xorneto?

Morrison's storyline was good (albeit a little hasted at the end). It was a sarcastic comment on Magneto coming back all the time and that should have been the end of Mags. Where Marvel really messed up is when they retconned almost the entire storyline right after Morrisson left. Pop, there was Magneto again and he wasn't responsible, he was just .. misunderstood.
I really couldn't be bothered to read excalibur after that little stunt and i don't much care for Magneto these days.

[Taniwha]

Morrison's storyline was good (albeit a little hasted at the end). It was a sarcastic comment on Magneto coming back all the time and that should have been the end of Mags. Where Marvel really messed up is when they retconned almost the entire storyline right after Morrisson left. Pop, there was Magneto again and he wasn't responsible, he was just .. misunderstood.
I really couldn't be bothered to read excalibur after that little stunt and i don't much care for Magneto these days.

Morrison's storyline was garbage in which he threw Marvel a curve ball and decided to roll back basically 40 years of character development, as well as finding it necessary to throw in some sort of "concentration camps / Magneto was a camp survivor/oh the irony" detritus only he could fathom through the haze of whatever he brews his tea with.

The retcon was necessary because Morrison basically ran out there and made comics that shouldn't have been made but were stupidly released rather than miss a ship date.

[Morw]

Assuming Marvel is not going to go down the "Skrull/ Space Phantom/ Manipulated by a villain" path, what would it take in your eyes to redeem Tony Stark and Reed Richards?

Or are those ways the only way to redeem Stark and Richards in your eyes after everything they have done?

A list of some of the things they have done:

- Building a prison in the negative zone that makes the prisoners miserable (and one killed himself). Keeping them there without a trial and for the rest of their lives (unless they agree to register).

- Cloning their MIA friend Thor as a mindless weapon slave and sending this Thor clone out into the field without having full control over him. This action led to the death of Black Goliath.

- Very secretive about the whole process to the public and even to "allies" (Spider-Man sure as hell didn't know about the Negative Zone prison thing and then jumped ship after learning about it).

- Essentially creating a Marvel form of The Suicide Squad. Using villains such as Venom, Bullseye, and The Green Goblin to do it.

So, short of going down the "skrull/ space phantom/ manipulated by a villain" route, is there anything Marvel can do to make Tony and Reed seem "heroic" in your eyes?

Well knowing Marvel you can bet there is some grand mastermind behind it after all we where promised a fair portatet of booth side not have one side compeared to any dictatorship they can think of while the others are only beeing heros and underdog rebel's a'la the rebellion in Starwars. all we need now is that Tony turns out to be Cap real father after a timetravel he did a few weeks ago.

But if they for once is not going to lie to us and at all want to redeem them then they need to show us why all these things was neccerey and that they will work. If they can show us that their "trainned" superhero's never will cause any accidents, and the villans they turned loose will behave ( atleast for the next 10 years, perferly forever). and prove beoynd doubt that the prison would save not only the life of every singel person in the world but the whole univers. They can bring in a new "futerman" who barly escapes the destuction of the unvers becouse people didnt want to do what had to be done.

[Vaal]

It seems to me that Marvel doesn't intend to redeem IM and in fact doesn't think he needs it. If the remarks that the results of 50-SI will remain after CW are true, then IM wins and there's really no point for him to repent.

It looks pretty grim for 616 right now if everyone's going to be either a fugitive or a sl... er agent of SHIELD.

Hopefully Hulk will come back with all his new drinking buddies and punch the world back into fun comic regardless of what Millar wants.

[phantom1592]

They have a big Iron Man movie coming out soon, so they had better do SOMETHING to make at LEAST the fans like him again.

[XPac]

Morrison's storyline was garbage in which he threw Marvel a curve ball and decided to roll back basically 40 years of character development, as well as finding it necessary to throw in some sort of "concentration camps / Magneto was a camp survivor/oh the irony" detritus only he could fathom through the haze of whatever he brews his tea with.

The retcon was necessary because Morrison basically ran out there and made comics that shouldn't have been made but were stupidly released rather than miss a ship date.

But the thing is, if you read the Eve of Destruction story (which unlike Morssison's story wasn't retconned) then you could see that the character Magneto was moving in that direction.

It's not like he just pulled this version of Magneto out of the limbo... since the X-Men comic he started moving in a more and more villianous direction until Eve of Destruction outright showed him to be a monster, with Morrisons version taking that only one step further. So I think it's at least fair to say that Morrisons was consistant with the direction the character was moving in.

[Vaal]

They have a big Iron Man movie coming out soon, so they had better do SOMETHING to make at LEAST the fans like him again.
They could bill it as one last chance to see the character in a good light, I guess.

As for Morrison ruining/trying to ruin Magneto; while Magneto was swinging back to the villain side of things, it still wasn't in character to act as he did. Its like Doom nuking the US. Yes its villanous, but no, its not in character for Doom.

[Magneto Rocks]

I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times- Tony and Reed don't NEED redeemed.

It's Captain America who needs to justify his staggering overreaction IMO.

There are PLENTY of fans who still like Iron Man, and people like me who didn't before but are now fans thanks to him having the courage to do the right thing in CW.

As for Morrison ruining/trying to ruin Magneto; while Magneto was swinging back to the villain side of things, it still wasn't in character to act as he did. Its like Doom nuking the US. Yes its villanous, but no, its not in character for Doom.

Doom nuking the US is more in character for Doom than Morrison's Magneto.

It would be like Doom finding all gypsies and having them put to death. Hell, I can't FIND a comparison for the radical out-of-characterness of that Magneto in the worst Magneto story of all time. I mean... I don't know, I guess it's like Wolverine impaling Jubilee because she annoys him and then decapitating Charles Xavier because he asked him to sit down. In fact, it's MORE out of character than that...


I can't find words to describe it....

[XPac]

I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times- Tony and Reed don't NEED redeemed.

It's Captain America who needs to justify his staggering overreaction IMO.




Between some of the stuff we've seen in Frontline and Runaways, I'm not sure Cap was overraction can really be labelled staggering.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times- Tony and Reed don't NEED redeemed.

It's Captain America who needs to justify his staggering overreaction IMO.

There are PLENTY of fans who still like Iron Man, and people like me who didn't before but are now fans thanks to him having the courage to do the right thing in CW.


You've got to be kidding me...........

It's alright if you believe in the ideals of the registration, but to say that Tony and Reed have done nothing wrong, or don't need to be redeemed.....

That's just ridiculous.

[Magneto Rocks]

Between some of the stuff we've seen in Frontline and Runaways, I'm not sure Cap was overraction can really be labelled staggering.

Honestly, I'm not sure we can really take everything that happens in Frontline as anything but a VERY loose adaption of the truth.

I mean, besides getting BASIC facts wrong (Thor hit a totally intact Cap? Goliath was electrocuted in the face? Nighthawk was at Geffen Meyer and had a MASSIVE aerial duel, including BLOWING UP helicoptors? The super-villain Tbolts were being used PRE Civil War 3?) and being obscenely biased, it has things which are clear contradictions. Such as the prison in Frontline being a Hell hole when not only does ASm portray it as about as nice as a maximum security prison can be, but also MARK MILLAR HIMSELF, who is pretty much the authority (Heh) on all things Civil War, says it is absoloutely essential that the prison is clean etc, and the ASm one is the right one.

When Frontline contradicts another title, it seems the practice to go with the other title. So to be honest, I'll take ANYTHING Frontline says with a pinch of salt.

It's alright if you believe in the ideals of the registration, but to say that Tony and Reed have done nothing wrong, or don't need to be redeemed.....

What should Reed be redeemed for? He acted coldly towards his life? For Heaven's sake, Sue goes off and threatens to get together with Namor every damned 2 or 3 years it's a MIRACLE Reed has stuck with her so long! It wasn't just Tony and Reed who made Clor, it was Hank too and it is VERY clear from CW4 that the other pro-reg heroes KNEW they were doing it so by extent the CLor blame lies with ALL of the pro-reg heroes, if you are so inclined.

So I ask again, what the Hell has Reed done to deserve this storm of attacks? Hell, Stark has done nothing either, but defending him is far too long because of the sheer number of unfair charges pressed.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Honestly, I'm not sure we can really take everything that happens in Frontline as anything but a VERY loose adaption of the truth.

I mean, besides getting BASIC facts wrong (Thor hit a totally intact Cap? Goliath was electrocuted in the face? Nighthawk was at Geffen Meyer and had a MASSIVE aerial duel, including BLOWING UP helicoptors? The super-villain Tbolts were being used PRE Civil War 3?) and being obscenely biased, it has things which are clear contradictions. Such as the prison in Frontline being a Hell hole when not only does ASm portray it as about as nice as a maximum security prison can be, but also MARK MILLAR HIMSELF, who is pretty much the authority (Heh) on all things Civil War, says it is absoloutely essential that the prison is clean etc, and the ASm one is the right one.

When Frontline contradicts another title, it seems the practice to go with the other title. So to be honest, I'll take ANYTHING Frontline says with a pinch of salt.



What should Reed be redeemed for? He acted coldly towards his life? For Heaven's sake, Sue goes off and threatens to get together with Namor every damned 2 or 3 years it's a MIRACLE Reed has stuck with her so long! It wasn't just Tony and Reed who made Clor, it was Hank too and it is VERY clear from CW4 that the other pro-reg heroes KNEW they were doing it so by extent the CLor blame lies with ALL of the pro-reg heroes, if you are so inclined.

So I ask again, what the Hell has Reed done to deserve this storm of attacks? Hell, Stark has done nothing either, but defending him is far too long because of the sheer number of unfair charges pressed.

Reed - Negative Zone, 42, 50-state-initiative, Cloning, Hulk. Not to mention completely disregarding the moral/emotional end of this entire war.

Tony - Where to begin....... "New Thunderbolts", 50-State-initiative, Peter Parker (period), Hulk, Cape-killers, working with SHIELD even after all the stuff that happened in New Avengers (and such), Negative Zone, Cloning, and having the tenacity to even DARE asking the Mutant population for sympathy for his situation, and being mostly responsible for everything that is going on in the MU (including Planet Hulk).


Seriously, the "war" has been like this:

Pro-Reg - Sign up, or you are under arrest. No trial.

Anti-Reg - No, we will not sign up, and we will continue to help people.

Pro-Reg - Okay, well now we will use all registered heroes against you, with extreme prejudice, collateral damage be damned. On top of that, we will use SHIELD soldiers as Stormtroopers, clone our greatest heroes, God or not, and use as many villains as possible to stop you all. Once again, collateral damage be damned.

Anti-Reg - Holy s**t. Well..... Um...... We will try to save as many people as possible?

Pro-Reg - And if you do that, we will take you all down. Oh, when you register, hero, mutant, or both, you will be monitored for the rest of your life. And if you are a hero, you are working for SHIELD.

Anti-Reg - What if SHIELD is corru.......

Pro-Reg - Doesn't matter. Oh, and when you become Pro-Reg, if you even think about switching sides, we all have permission to beat the living s**t outta you.

And Red Skull, Kang, and Doom are sitting in the corner taking notes.

It's like Uncle Sam vs Batdick/God, with twenty years of prep-time.

[Magneto Rocks]

Reed - Negative Zone, 42, 50-state-initiative, Cloning, Hulk. Not to mention completely disregarding the moral/emotional end of this entire war.

Well, let's see....

Negative Zone- Um.... what exactly? I'll counter this when you explain it.

42 and The 50 States Initiative- that's ridiculous! You DON'T know what EITHER of them are, so you can't possibly render judgement!

Cloning- Let's not forget LOTS of others knew about it. I COULD see this as a valid point, though.

Hulk- naa, here he was in the right. They did what they thought they had to, even Doctor Strange said it was the only way.


-Tony - Where to begin....... "New Thunderbolts", 50-State-initiative, Peter Parker (period), Hulk, Cape-killers, working with SHIELD even after all the stuff that happened in New Avengers (and such), Negative Zone, Cloning, and having the tenacity to even DARE asking the Mutant population for sympathy for his situation, and being mostly responsible for everything that is going on in the MU (including Planet Hulk).

Whoo! Let's try to run down that...

New Thunderbolts- Hmm, no comment. I want to see what HAPPENS with them first, I won't pass judgement on two pages.

Peter Parker- Um... befriending Parker? Convincing him to unmask? That doesn't say much....

Cape-killers- Again- wha?

SHIELD stuff- Working with SHIELD is better than opposing your own government with armed rebellion.

Hulk, Cloning and Negative Zone- See Reed

X-Men- WHAT? The audacity to... I don't follow? Does Tony Stark have some sort of bad history with the x-men that I am completely unaware of? He asked for their support because he could use it. Nothing more, it hardly makes him evil.

He's hardly responsible for everything going on in the Marvel U. Last time I checked, Cap is responsible for Civil War, Annihilus for Annihilation, Aunt May for the Unmasking, DOCTOR STRANGE AND TONY AND REED for Planet hulk...

Seriously, the "war" has been like this:

Pro-Reg - Sign up, or you are under arrest. No trial.

Anti-Reg - No, we will not sign up, and we will continue to help people.

Pro-Reg - Okay, well now we will use all registered heroes against you, with extreme prejudice, collateral damage be damned. On top of that, we will use SHIELD soldiers as Stormtroopers, clone our greatest heroes, God or not, and use as many villains as possible to stop you all. Once again, collateral damage be damned.

And WHOOPS we're already disagreeing. Let me say how I see it

Pro-Reg- Sign up, or else retire or you are under arrest until you realise you can't possibly run around with devastating powers unchecked!

Anti-Reg: NO WAY! That's my rights! I will continue to recklessly run around and super-hero any way I damn well please, and I WILL fight if you try to stop me!

Pro-Reg:Fine, we will take you into custody. We'll try to keep damage to a minimum but it would be much easier if you just regist-

Anti-Reg: LIKE HELL!


Anti-Reg - Holy s**t. Well..... Um...... We will try to save as many people as possible?

Pro-Reg - And if you do that, we will take you all down. Oh, when you register, hero, mutant, or both, you will be monitored for the rest of your life. And if you are a hero, you are working for SHIELD.

Pro-Reg: Just register, or at LEAST hear us out to stop collatoral damage!

Anti-Reg: We will keep saving people OUR way, consequences be damned! You're stealing our rights!

Pro-Reg: Actually, you can retire if you don't like it. When you register, you will be kept under some surveillance just in case you go rogue, and you'll help augment SHIELD forces so we can weed out corruption and make things more efficient.

Anti-Reg: LIKE HELL!

Anti-Reg - What if SHIELD is corru.......

Pro-Reg - Doesn't matter.

And Red Skull, Kang, and Doom are sitting in the corner taking notes.

It's like Uncle Sam vs Batdick/God, with twenty years of prep-time.

Anti-Reg: SHIELD are corrupt!

Pro-Reg: Yes, they may be. But if we work WITH the system, we can change that and no-one needs to be....

Anti-Reg: NO WAY! They're CORRUPT! And besides, the villains benefit from this!

Pro-Reg: Y'know, if you actually stopped ATTACKING us and HELPED us, we could stop the....

Anti-Reg: LIKE HELL!

[mandog]

Here is how Reed and Tony could be redeemed in my eyes.

Let Caps side win At this point I dont see how that could even happen, but for story sake let Cap win. Then a little bit down the road have something happen (Wolrd War Hulk for example) that proves Reed and Tonys calculations 100% right. Dont let Cap get to dirty during Civil War so he stays heroic. Then when we find out that Reed and Tony were right and the world would have been a safer place if they had won, THEN they would be redeemed, and everything would be hunkie dory again.


I dont think any of that could happen at this point. Reed and Tony will win. But for my money they ARE villains now. Reed to a lesser extent. But damn, locking up the good guys in their negative zone prison (to name one of many $#!++y things). Thats crossing the line.

[spyridona]

[QUOTE=Magneto Rocks]

What should Reed be redeemed for? He acted coldly towards his life? For Heaven's sake, Sue goes off and threatens to get together with Namor every damned 2 or 3 years it's a MIRACLE Reed has stuck with her so long!QUOTE]

... Have you actually read the mainstream Fantastic Four book in the past seven years or so? Really, have you?

I'm getting so sick of people who HAVEN'T read these books dicating what these characters are like.

[Magneto Rocks]

... Have you actually read the mainstream Fantastic Four book in the past seven years or so? Really, have you?

I'm getting so sick of people who HAVEN'T read these books dicating what these characters are like.

Picked the wrong guy to mess with- FF is my favourite major marvel title, irvalled only by the real Avengers back when it was around.

Damn right I've read it for more than the past seven years. The Waid run is POSSIBLY my favourite run on any title in a loong time.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Well, let's see....
Negative Zone- Um.... what exactly? I'll counter this when you explain it.


Prison without trial, life sentence for doing something as simple as stopping a mugging, etc.


42 and The 50 States Initiative- that's ridiculous! You DON'T know what EITHER of them are, so you can't possibly render judgement!


Check out the later Solicits, and Cable/Deadpool. Cable has repeating talked about how bad the 50 States Initiative is. And this is a person who actually agrees with Registration. Not to mention, he's from the future.


Cloning- Let's not forget LOTS of others knew about it. I COULD see this as a valid point, though.


Tony is a very convincing guy. Manipulative, too.


Hulk- naa, here he was in the right. They did what they thought they had to, even Doctor Strange said it was the only way.


Great, and soon, they will all get their a$$es kicked by Hulk, and whoever he brings along.


New Thunderbolts- Hmm, no comment. I want to see what HAPPENS with them first, I won't pass judgement on two pages.
[/quote

Bullseye. One of them is Bullseye. WHO THE F**K TRUSTS BULLSEYE? I don't care how many chips Tony has in them, you don't use people like Green Goblin and Bullseye for any means. If the public finds out about this Squadron Supreme-wannabe tactic, the s**t's gonna hit the fan.

[quote]
Peter Parker- Um... befriending Parker? Convincing him to unmask? That doesn't say much....


No, I mean attempting to kick his a$$ when he even thought about switching sides. He's already registered, and didn't even commit a crime.

Also, Venom and Green Goblin are two of the villains being used by Starks. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?! You're just asking for Peter to curbstomp you when you do stuff like that.


Cape-killers- Again- wha?


Somebody has already pointed out (maybe in another thread, don't care) that these guys, for the most part, have been salivating at the chance to take down anti-reg heroes, like they're mutant hunting or something.


SHIELD stuff- Working with SHIELD is better than opposing your own government with armed rebellion.


Really? Cause the way I see it, SHIELD forced some people into an armed rebellion, namely the Anti-Reg leader.


X-Men- WHAT? The audacity to... I don't follow? Does Tony Stark have some sort of bad history with the x-men that I am completely unaware of? He asked for their support because he could use it. Nothing more, it hardly makes him evil.


He acted as if Stamford was worse than anything the Mutants have suffered (as if M-day and the Death of Genosha weren't enough), sent ONE and Bishop to really turn Mutants into the Marvel Universe's "Native Americans", and pretty much forced their hand on what side they will be on.

Speaking of forcing hands........


He's hardly responsible for everything going on in the Marvel U. Last time I checked, Cap is responsible for Civil War, Annihilus for Annihilation, Aunt May for the Unmasking, DOCTOR STRANGE AND TONY AND REED for Planet hulk...

Maria Hill is responsible for Civil War, and the Captain America tie-in proved it, Tony just escalated it to amoral levels. My mistake.

And most of the Illuminati is responsible for PH, but mostly Tony and Reed (they spearheaded it).

[Magneto Rocks]

Prison without trial, life sentence for doing something as simple as stopping a mugging, etc.

Well, answer Tony's question- how do you let someone with the powers of an A-BOMB walk around? How do you place them under house arrest, how do you have a 'fair trial' when they can blow up the jury? It's cruel, but it's also necessary and practical.


Check out the later Solicits, and Cable/Deadpool. Cable has repeating talked about how bad the 50 States Initiative is. And this is a person who actually agrees with Registration. Not to mention, he's from the future.

And we CAN'T make our judgement on the FSI until we know what it is, REGARDLESS of what Cable said. let's not forget Cable walked out on Cap- does that make Cap's side wrong?


Tony is a very convincing guy. Manipulative, too.

You have no proof he manipulated ANYTHING.

Great, and soon, they will all get their a$$es kicked by Hulk, and whoever he brings along.

Hah, we'll see.




Bullseye. One of them is Bullseye. WHO THE F**K TRUSTS BULLSEYE? I don't care how many chips Tony has in them, you don't use people like Green Goblin and Bullseye for any means. If the public finds out about this Squadron Supreme-wannabe tactic, the s**t's gonna hit the fan.

I refuse to pass judgement yet.


No, I mean attempting to kick his a$$ when he even thought about switching sides. He's already registered, and didn't even commit a crime.

Oh PLEASE! Maybe if SPider-Man wasn't SNEAKING AROUND, ALTERING SECURITY CAMERAS, SNEAKING HIS FAMILY OUT and then racing in a costume, he might be able to maintain a charade of innocence. Tony's not an idiot, he saw the defection as clearly as we fans did.

Also, Venom and Green Goblin are two of the villains being used by Starks. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?! You're just asking for Peter to curbstomp you when you do stuff like that.

Peter doesn't have too bad a history with Venom II. And I doubt the Goblin is allowed out to play much.


Somebody has already pointed out (maybe in another thread, don't care) that these guys, for the most part, have been salivating at the chance to take down anti-reg heroes, like they're mutant hunting or something.

Ah yes, like good old Dum Dum Dugan in CA, the cape-killer LEADER. Who, y'know, regretted what he had to do. I'm sorry, salivating? No evidence at all.


Really? Cause the way I see it, SHIELD forced some people into an armed rebellion, namely the Anti-Reg leader.

And that's the way YOU see it. We disagree.


He acted as if Stamford was worse than anything the Mutants have suffered (as if M-day and the Death of Genosha weren't enough), sent ONE and Bishop to really turn Mutants into the Marvel Universe's "Native Americans", and pretty much forced their hand on what side they will be on.

Oh now you ARE ridiculous. He did NO SUCH TIHNG with M-Day and the death of Genosha- and Stamford is a thousand times worse than M-Day. And he sent O*N*E to round up mutants and NOT exterminate them, in fact to PREVENT them from being hurt. Don't try to twist fact.




Maria Hill is responsible for Civil War, and the Captain America tie-in proved it, Tony just escalated it to amoral levels. My mistake.

And most of the Illuminati is responsible for PH, but mostly Tony and Reed (they spearheaded it).

Whoops! We disagree again! Mostly Tony and Reed? That's why doC strange FULLY agreed with it, right?

Oh, and no. Do you honestly believe Cap wouldn't have done the same, Maria Hill meeting or not? Maria Hill did what she thought she had to, and I can see why. The only problem I have with what she did is how she did it- she should have given Cap more of a chance and had at least one super-human ready to intervene when things went sour.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Well, answer Tony's question- how do you let someone with the powers of an A-BOMB walk around? How do you place them under house arrest, how do you have a 'fair trial' when they can blow up the jury? It's cruel, but it's also necessary and practical.


Who about Reed invent something to regress their powers? If he can clone a god, I bet he could do that.



And we CAN'T make our judgement on the FSI until we know what it is, REGARDLESS of what Cable said. let's not forget Cable walked out on Cap- does that make Cap's side wrong?


You didn't read my post, did you? I said that even though Cable agreed with Registration, he was still adamantly AGAINST the FSI. And he was saying some pretty crazy stuff, like it would forsake the very ideals this nation stands for (in other words, he felt it was borderline Communism in the worst way).



You have no proof he manipulated ANYTHING.


Sure I do: Spider-Man! They've also hinted that Reed may be on a leash too.




Oh PLEASE! Maybe if SPider-Man wasn't SNEAKING AROUND, ALTERING SECURITY CAMERAS, SNEAKING HIS FAMILY OUT and then racing in a costume, he might be able to maintain a charade of innocence. Tony's not an idiot, he saw the defection as clearly as we fans did.


He didn't commit a crime, so he shouldn't have been jumped, period.


Ah yes, like good old Dum Dum Dugan in CA, the cape-killer LEADER. Who, y'know, regretted what he had to do. I'm sorry, salivating? No evidence at all.


1) I said most, aka: the majority.

2) Maria Hill is on that list. Guess who she is? Leader of SHIELD!!!

3) That was the only example of a cape-killer actually regretting what he's doing. There have been plenty of examples of the opposite, even on the main title (CW #2)



Oh now you ARE ridiculous. He did NO SUCH TIHNG with M-Day and the death of Genosha- and Stamford is a thousand times worse than M-Day. And he sent O*N*E to round up mutants and NOT exterminate them, in fact to PREVENT them from being hurt. Don't try to twist fact.


M-Day was when the majority of the mutant population lost their powers. Many mutants were dependent, physically and/or mentally, to those powers. Thus many mutants died.

Stamford gave the human a taste of what mutants have gone through for a LONG time. Oh, and that last statement, Andrew Jackson would have used that excuse for the Native-Americans.


Whoops! We disagree again! Mostly Tony and Reed? That's why doC strange FULLY agreed with it, right?


I didn't know we were focusing on Dr. Strange? Oh wait.......


The only problem I have with what she did is how she did it- she should have given Cap more of a chance

The first step is admittance. :p

[Alan2099]

Well, answer Tony's question- how do you let someone with the powers of an A-BOMB walk around?
Apparently you give them a little card, write their name down, and tell them "please don't blow up the world".

Oh PLEASE! Maybe if SPider-Man wasn't SNEAKING AROUND, ALTERING SECURITY CAMERAS, SNEAKING HIS FAMILY OUT and then racing in a costume, he might be able to maintain a charade of innocence. Tony's not an idiot, he saw the defection as clearly as we fans did.
Except he didn't defect. Nowhere in that comic did he say he was defecting. he said he'd made some bad chocies and was no trying to make the right ones, and he didn't trust Tony. Consideirng Tony had already blatantly threatened him, is it no wonder he didn't want his family living there?

For al Tony knew, he was just going to go to congress or retire from the super hero biz. As for wearing the costume, it's perfectly legal for Spidey to do so. He's registered after all.

Peter doesn't have too bad a history with Venom II. And I doubt the Goblin is allowed out to play much.
Venom II is an alien symbite that's tried to kill him bonded with a crazed super villian that's tried to kill him.

Yeah, he's actually got MORE history with this one that the old one. Scorpion was one of the older foes he's fought.

And he sent O*N*E to round up mutants and NOT exterminate them, in fact to PREVENT them from being hurt.
SENTINELS are keeping mutants in a detainment camp.

There's no twisting of facts there. Might as well send the KKK to round up blacks for their own protection.

[bulbasteve]

SENTINELS are keeping mutants in a detainment camp.

There's no twisting of facts there. Might as well send the KKK to round up blacks for their own protection.

The President is dismantling the program as of the new CW X-Men. Guy has a big heart to still let them out after they blasted their way out in the first issue. I'm sure Cap could learn a few things, it seems the President decided to stop the program because of pressure from the media and some mutant rights activists. But the violence as we saw in the last issue ALMOST made it so they would have kept the program.

[spyridona]

Picked the wrong guy to mess with- FF is my favourite major marvel title, irvalled only by the real Avengers back when it was around.

Damn right I've read it for more than the past seven years. The Waid run is POSSIBLY my favourite run on any title in a loong time.

Then you would know the Sue/Namor thing died in the 60s, was brought to life again in the mid 90s. When it returned, it was very one sided and while it was touched upon during Claremont's run, it hasn't been touched for about six years.

[XPac]

Well, answer Tony's question- how do you let someone with the powers of an A-BOMB walk around? How do you place them under house arrest, how do you have a 'fair trial' when they can blow up the jury? It's cruel, but it's also necessary and practical.



But it's funny how that logic apparently only applies to unregistered heroes. Villians go to jail and receive due process. Yet unregistered combatants strangly don't receive the same treatment. Go figure.

The system does have some practicality to it... whether or nto it's necessary is pretty debatable. I'd argue the former status quo has a lot of practical advantages over the current system.

[lightning]

I think the best way to "redeem" both characters would be to run with their post-Civil War situations for a while, and just let more stories so people get a fuller of sense of what's going on with both characters. Right now, we're only seeing them through the lens of Civil War. I don't think that Tony and Reed's positions are entirely without merit - it's just that Civil War is showing a rather extreme interpretation of it, which is partly out of necessity given the rather short length of the series. That being said, what they should have done was to have the Iron Man series line up with Civil War chronologically (i.e. the events in Iron Man should be "behind the scenes" of Civil War, much like how "The War at Home" arc is in Spider-Man), and they should have had the first two issues of New Avengers: Disassembled be 1)Captain America and 2)Iron Man. By waiting so long to spotlight Tony Stark, we only see him through the lens of other stories, which for the most part, follow anti-registration characters. He's not going to be particularly sympathetic there.

While I don't disagree that the pro-registration side in Civil War has been shown in a pretty horrible light, there's still several issues to go, so who knows where things go. It's been implied that the death of Goliath will "radicalize" some elements of the anti-registration side, so I imagine will be seeing some anti-reg characters doing some shady things as well - my guess would be some bombings with the intent to sabotage the implementation of the SHRA, complete with the loss of civilian life. So after Civil War is done, we might be having this same thread over some anti-registration characters...

[Omega Alpha]

Then you would know the Sue/Namor thing died in the 60s, was brought to life again in the mid 90s. When it returned, it was very one sided and while it was touched upon during