Batman 657 Spoilers [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

literally exaggerated

09-27-2006, 04:08 PM

Tim says 'what about us'. I thought 'what the hell? Didn't your Dad just die? What about your feeelings for him? And shouldn't you be happy that Bruce has a kid? Instead of worrying about your own place like some spoild brat?

Bruce just adopted Tim, so actually, Tim's reactions makes perfect sense. He's literally just been made Bruce's son, and now Bruce's actual child shows up, of course he's gonna be pissed. I thought he handled it pretty well, all things considered. He did come up and try to make peace with Damien, Damien was just a douche about it.

Damien really is a loathsome little shit, but I think it was made pretty clear that it was because Morrison envisioned his upbringing exactly the way I did: absent mother, raised as a prince by people who worshipped him, given virtually no dscipline whatsoever save as a murderer. So, surprise surprise, he comes out as an incredibly dangerous, egotistical, bratty, self-obsessed little sociopath desperate for some sort of father figure. Bruce putting the smackdown on him was AWESOME.

I'm also curious as to whether he's actually Bruce's child. I'm beginning to doubt it, as Bruce himself makes it very clear that there is a possiblity he isn't. I have a feeling that more than anything else, this is gonna end up being a validation of Tim's status as Bruce's son, regardless of whether or not Damien is actually related to him.

Mia

09-27-2006, 04:48 PM

Also, his father died well over a year ago DCU time and since then he has had time to effectively bond with Bruce as a surrogate father.

I really can't see anyone Tim's age, his maturity and the with the kind of close relationship he had with his father behaving like that. It just seems way out of character.

Sean Whitmore

09-27-2006, 04:58 PM

I really can't see anyone Tim's age, his maturity and the with the kind of close relationship he had with his father behaving like that. It just seems way out of character.

Yeah, him storming out of the cave and telling Bruce to handle the Spook case by himself was a little much.

Then again, the last time he acted this bratty was when he fought Catwoman during "Hush", and that turned out to be part of an elaborate ruse.

SEAN

the film freak

09-27-2006, 05:29 PM

Casting an actor of a nationality that is different from the character they play. Does not mean that the character has lost their nationality. Is the Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins no longer American because he's played by an Englishman? Is Wolverine no longer Canadian because he was played by an Australian?

Well for one the actors playing Ra's used a English accent not an Arabic accent. Christian Bale and Hugh Jackman used American accents when play their respective characters. Liam Neeson and David Warner made no effort to make Ra's sound Arabic.

Plenty of Arabs/Middle Eastern people live in the UK and Europe. And still keep their traditions and values. Many of the stories have touched on how Middle Eastern culture still strong in their lives.

Sure. And if they spend a significant amount of time in Europe I say it's safe to call them European. If you're parents are Pakistanian but you were raised in the UK most life I say your British.

It was a snarky comment on my behalf. No need to overanalyze it.

That's possible. But I can't believe that even if Talia were not around she would not have left instructions with her men, to be as strict with the boy as possible. The organisation would know that an spoiled child would have no benefit to them down the road. Because it just fosters weakness.

Even if she did I think those guys would be kind of worried about pissing off a kid that will eventually be their boss.

the film freak

09-27-2006, 05:35 PM

Bruce just adopted Tim, so actually, Tim's reactions makes perfect sense. He's literally just been made Bruce's son, and now Bruce's actual child shows up, of course he's gonna be pissed. I thought he handled it pretty well, all things considered. He did come up and try to make peace with Damien, Damien was just a douche about it.

Damien really is a loathsome little shit, but I think it was made pretty clear that it was because Morrison envisioned his upbringing exactly the way I did: absent mother, raised as a prince by people who worshipped him, given virtually no dscipline whatsoever save as a murderer. So, surprise surprise, he comes out as an incredibly dangerous, egotistical, bratty, self-obsessed little sociopath desperate for some sort of father figure. Bruce putting the smackdown on him was AWESOME.

I'm also curious as to whether he's actually Bruce's child. I'm beginning to doubt it, as Bruce himself makes it very clear that there is a possiblity he isn't. I have a feeling that more than anything else, this is gonna end up being a validation of Tim's status as Bruce's son, regardless of whether or not Damien is actually related to him.

I'm beginning to think otherwise. It'd be funny if it was though.

I cracked up when Damian said "F*** You." to ALfred. I figure that might upset a few people here. Can't say Morrison is going half ass in making the kid unlikable. He's a freaking nightmare. Pratically a poster child for planned parenthood.

literally exaggerated

09-27-2006, 06:06 PM

Yeah. Its a little odd to me that so many people are seeing the fact that they absolutely hate the character as a sign that the story is somehow failing, when its very clear that the intent of the story was to make us hate the kid as much as possible. This is not a case of a writer trying and failing to make a character likeable and failing, its a writer intentionally and meticulously trying to make a character loathsome and succeeding tremendously.

But it'll be interesting to see where Morrison goes from here. Designing a character to be hated is all well and good assuming its for a purpose: is he laying the groundwork for eventual development into a character we might root for? setting up the pure, anti-Tim to highlight exactly what makes Tim so awesome? merely crafting the latest Bat-villain?

Morrison is a writer who does absolutely everything for a purpose, so I'm very curious to see what his purpose for Damien is.

ultramandingo

09-27-2006, 06:20 PM

" novelty crime act ".......i wana put that on my resume

Sean Whitmore

09-27-2006, 06:25 PM

" novelty crime act ".......i wana put that on my resume

Me too. From now on, whenever I run a red light, I'm going to sing a Gilbert and Sullivan tune. I will be The Driver of Penzance. :cool:

SEAN

literally exaggerated

09-27-2006, 07:51 PM

Personally I plan to skip whenever I jaywalk. Call me...the Skipwalker.

StrikeForce Albert

09-27-2006, 08:06 PM

Crime lost

I admit, that was funy as hell

ultramandingo

09-27-2006, 08:22 PM

Personally I plan to skip whenever I jaywalk. Call me...the Skipwalker.

im gona train monkeys too do my evil doings..and fling their poop . call me doctor doevil......bwhaaha ha

the film freak

09-27-2006, 10:46 PM

Also got to give props to Morrison for having a lot happen in one issue. Bruce brings Damian to the cave, Damian meets Robin, Damian kills a guy, Damian kicks Robin ass and becomes the new Robin. These days that'd be a six issue miniseries.

My major qualm is still the art. I think Kubert is getting better but I can't say how I like how draws Damian. He doesn't look like a little kid just a tiny teenager.

aukevin

09-28-2006, 07:55 AM

I really can't see anyone Tim's age, his maturity and the with the kind of close relationship he had with his father behaving like that. It just seems way out of character.

I agree, I thought Tim was quite out of character. Tim has seemed more secure with his relationship with Bruce than that. I don't see Tim as being threatened by him, does he really think now that Bruce might have a son that he'd be kicked out. I thought Morrison got Robin wrong in this issue.

Also got to give props to Morrison for having a lot happen in one issue. Bruce brings Damian to the cave, Damian meets Robin, Damian kills a guy, Damian kicks Robin ass and becomes the new Robin. These days that'd be a six issue miniseries.

My major qualm is still the art. I think Kubert is getting better but I can't say how I like how draws Damian. He doesn't look like a little kid just a tiny teenager.
I agree filmfreak, there was lots of action in this issue. I liked that quite a bit. I was also going to mention on the art. I thought both Damien and Tim were drawn too old, but especially Damien. He looked like a short 20 year old to me.

Bruce Wayne Jr.

09-28-2006, 09:14 AM

Slumber Hulk

09-28-2006, 09:40 AM

Jack

09-28-2006, 10:20 AM

Also got to give props to Morrison for having a lot happen in one issue. Bruce brings Damian to the cave, Damian meets Robin, Damian kills a guy, Damian kicks Robin ass and becomes the new Robin. These days that'd be a six issue miniseries. Damian didn't kick Robin's arse. He suckerpunched him. Robin was actually winning up until then, despite the grenades and swords, and had just saved Damian.

literally exaggerated

09-28-2006, 12:04 PM

I think Tim's reaction was completely understandable. He is still a kid, yes he's mature but how much can you expect. And what did he really do? He walked away. Big deal. He left Batman to take care of "The Spook" an obvious D-List loser. He walked away, he needed some time to think.

Later he tried again to bond with Damian. It seems pretty mature: He got upset, he got some space, he came back to the cave.

Exactly. Everyone gets angry and sullen from time to time, usually about things far less drastic then finding out your adoptive father actually has another kid you never knew about. Teenagers especially. Hell, sometimes I get pissy when I've just had a bad day, like missing the bus and doing bad on an exam or something. I'm sure everyone else here does too. And typically when I'm really upset, I lash out in some way, usually verbally.

Consider Tim's situation. His father, who he was very close to, dies, leaving him a 16 year old boy with no real adult in his life. I don't care how mature you are, thats not just a devastating loss, its a frightening one, one that causes you to question your place in the world. Given the loss of Superboy and Spoiler as well, and you're talking about someone who in a very short span of time lost nearly everyone they truly cared about. Except for one: Bruce.

So he's incredibly broken up about it, and then his mentor/boss, and by far the second most important father figure in his life, takes him on a year long trip in which he presumably bonds very closely to not just him, but also to his "brother" Dick.

Voila! He's got a family again. Of course not a true replacement for the loss he faced, but a salve of some sort on the lonliness and the pain. At the end of the day, when all the crimefighting and whatn ot is over, insteead of feeling pretty damn alone, he knows their are people out there who see him as being as close and important as family.

Then, soon after the year is over, Bruce offers to adopt him, to make it all official. And Tim HAPPILY accepts.

Now, bear in mind that none of the above was Morrison's doing, so if you disagree with Tim's behavior in the aftermath of his father's death thats one thing, but it wasn't Morrison's decision, and at this point he's working within the frameework of what writers before him did.

RIGHT AFTER the adoption takes place, Bruce suddenly goes away, and comes back with a new kid. A boy, actually of Bruce's blood (a connection that Tim will never have with Bruce), in the ballpark of Tim's age. OF COURSE thats gonna unsettle him. He's just had his entire life uprooted, and his new situation as part of a family with Bruce was practically the only piece of stability. Moreover, the kid is a huge asshole, a bratty, egotistical little shit who outright dismisses Tim from the get-go. And Bruce states outright that despite this, he will be essentially accepting Damien into the family without hesitation.

So what does Tim do? Does he lash out at the kid? Does he pick a fight? No. He gets a little uncertain, takes the night off to go mull things over, and then returns with every intention of accepting Damien and making peace with him.

And people call this immature? Did I miss a canonization somewhere, is Tim a saint these days? He handled it far better than any teenager I've ever known would have, and in my mind if anything his way of dealing with the situation displayed how remarkably thoughtful and well-balanced Tim really is.

Jack

09-28-2006, 01:15 PM

Oh, something I forgot to mention earlier. Damian got the code from Alfred's prints... except Alfred is wearing gloves. Either it's an art mistake or someone really did intend for him to escape.

Mia

09-28-2006, 04:06 PM

Yeah, him storming out of the cave and telling Bruce to handle the Spook case by himself was a little much.

Then again, the last time he acted this bratty was when he fought Catwoman during "Hush", and that turned out to be part of an elaborate ruse.

SEAN

I thought he behaved like that in Hush because he doesn't like Selina period and thinks she's a low class skank.

Jerry Kraut

09-28-2006, 04:32 PM

Morrison isn't the crime mystery/thriller kind of guy, so i guess he just forgot Alfred's gloves.

Best line of the issue:
" Ahh... Memorylane."
Morrison knows the number 1 rule of Batman dynamics, every scene in the cave should remind us of the fact that Alfred rules them all.

TheTen-EyedMan

09-28-2006, 05:45 PM

I thought he behaved like that in Hush because he doesn't like Selina period and thinks she's a low class skank.

Me-ow!

Phfft!!!!

Bob-el

09-28-2006, 08:15 PM

I agree, I thought Tim was quite out of character. Tim has seemed more secure with his relationship with Bruce than that. I don't see Tim as being threatened by him, does he really think now that Bruce might have a son that he'd be kicked out. I thought Morrison got Robin wrong in this issue.

That's been happening a lot lately. Tim was originally very sharp and very level-headed. Lately in the Batbooks he's been neither. The only place he seems to be himself is Teen Titans. Maybe it is an intentional evolution in the character due to all that he has gone through in his personal life but it just doesn't ring true to me.

I would have expected him to give Bruce more credit instead of immediately getting in a snit. I also would have expected him to be too well trained to fall for such a sucker punch. It looks to me like just another case of a writer using a character whatever way he feels like because it is the only way to get the story to go where he wants it.

moebius

09-28-2006, 08:30 PM

The more I think about it, the more I think that "Damien" is a red herring, and Batman and Son actually refers to Bruce and Tim.

jsg2295

09-28-2006, 08:47 PM

The more I think about it, the more I think that "Damien" is a red herring, and Batman and Son actually refers to Bruce and Tim.
Very astute of you. That would be incredible if that was the case.

the film freak

09-29-2006, 04:14 AM

Very astute of you. That would be incredible if that was the case.

Nah. I'm in favor of the little bastard being Batmans biological son while Tim is Batman's "real" son. If King Arthur can have a crazy psychotic son I think Batman can have one too.

Violently Apathetic

09-29-2006, 04:31 AM

I know, I know, we all hate Damien, but 'Don't patronize me or I'll break your face' has to be one of my favourite lines, EVER.

OverMaster

09-29-2006, 05:52 AM

I thought he behaved like that in Hush because he doesn't like Selina period and thinks she's a low class skank.

Actually, Tim doesn't like to show it, but he really has some respect for Catwoman. Not enough to actually like her being with Bruce, perhaps, but I won't go so far as telling he just thinks of her as a slut.

PastePotPete

09-29-2006, 06:10 AM

And people call this immature? Did I miss a canonization somewhere, is Tim a saint these days? He handled it far better than any teenager I've ever known would have, and in my mind if anything his way of dealing with the situation displayed how remarkably thoughtful and well-balanced Tim really is.

Mr. Literally Exaggerated is right. Nothing Tim did was out of character. He's not a saint, he's a teenager. Hung out with a teenager lately? Tim's behavior in this book proves him to be an incredibly mature teenager.

Some fans, though, I've noticed, always want their favorite characters to be incapable of moments of weakness. They want their favorite guy to be absolutely unflappable. But when the company gives them what they want, they don't like that either. I mean, that's how we ended up with Bat-Jerk.

Tim was insecure. For about two hours. This is a perfectly acceptable moment for the character to have. Morrison is going to take us out of our comfort zone a bit. Roll with it!

jaguarshark

09-29-2006, 06:14 AM

I know, I know, we all hate Damien, but 'Don't patronize me or I'll break your face' has to be one of my favourite lines, EVER.
Heh. I was a pretty big fan of "I fought crime tonight. Crime lost."

Mia

09-29-2006, 07:48 AM

Mr. Literally Exaggerated is right. Nothing Tim did was out of character. He's not a saint, he's a teenager. Hung out with a teenager lately? Tim's behavior in this book proves him to be an incredibly mature teenager.

Some fans, though, I've noticed, always want their favorite characters to be incapable of moments of weakness. They want their favorite guy to be absolutely unflappable. But when the company gives them what they want, they don't like that either. I mean, that's how we ended up with Bat-Jerk.

Tim was insecure. For about two hours. This is a perfectly acceptable moment for the character to have. Morrison is going to take us out of our comfort zone a bit. Roll with it!

If you believe this, then my guess is you are unfamiliar with the character.

Tim has always been written as '16 going on 30'. He's more stable and more mature and more tough than most people in their 30's. That hissy fit I saw in Batman #657 was completely uncharacteristic. If Tim was ever that unstable it would have manifested itself a long time ago. I doubt very much that Bruce would have taken him on as a partner.

You might want to check out some of the earlier Robin books to see a more accurate potrayal.

Jaye

09-29-2006, 08:31 AM

Holy crap, I just realized. Damian is wearing Jason's costume.

Yeah, he is wearing Jason's shirt, threw Jason's shorts onto Tim's body, and I think that is Spoilers hooded thing he was wearing over it all.

filthysize

09-29-2006, 11:12 AM

Well I speed read this at lunch today. And I am positive that this little monster won't be Bruce's. You'll all see why. It's no accident that this kid shares the same name with an infamous movie character by the same name who happens to be Satans' spawn.

I don't get it. You're right about the name not being a coincidence thing, but I thought that's because he's the heir of Ra's Al Ghul (The Demon's Head), no?

Or are you suggesting that Ra's knocked up Talia? Because that's... well...

filthysize

09-29-2006, 11:15 AM

Oh, something I forgot to mention earlier. Damian got the code from Alfred's prints... except Alfred is wearing gloves. Either it's an art mistake or someone really did intend for him to escape.

Alfred doesn't wear gloves all the time, I'm assuming. I'm sure there were old prints on the keypad. Maybe even Bruce's.

Violently Apathetic

09-29-2006, 11:41 AM

If you believe this, then my guess is you are unfamiliar with the character.

Tim has always been written as '16 going on 30'. He's more stable and more mature and more tough than most people in their 30's. That hissy fit I saw in Batman #657 was completely uncharacteristic. If Tim was ever that unstable it would have manifested itself a long time ago. I doubt very much that Bruce would have taken him on as a partner.

You might want to check out some of the earlier Robin books to see a more accurate potrayal.

'Unstable'? You act like he put his fist through a wall rather than snarked a little, stalked off and came back a while later to mend fences. He's a sixteen year old who acts thirty, but he's still a sixteen year old and not a robot.

Well, actually isn't he 17 now?

Mia

09-29-2006, 02:21 PM

I don't get it. You're right about the name not being a coincidence thing, but I thought that's because he's the heir of Ra's Al Ghul (The Demon's Head), no?

Or are you suggesting that Ra's knocked up Talia? Because that's... well...

LOL!!! Sorry no dis-respect but you just made me laugh. In the film the 'Omen' the child/protagonists name is 'Damien'. Who is supposed to be the devils child. Or the anti-christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Omen

'Unstable'? You act like he put his fist through a wall rather than snarked a little, stalked off and came back a while later to mend fences. He's a sixteen year old who acts thirty, but he's still a sixteen year old and not a robot.

Well, actually isn't he 17 now?

Yes but a mature sixteen year old. That wasn't very mature behaviour in issue #657. Like someone has mentioned before Tim is way more secure and sure of his place alongside Batman. If Tim was ever that immature in the first place Bruce would never, ever have chosen him to be Robin. Especially after the disastrous results with Jason Todd.

Even if Tim did feel threatened by the prescence of Damien. I would have expected him to have hid it very well, or at least controlled himself. That behaviour was very inconsistant with the Tim Drake who has appeared in the Bat books for several years.

filthysize

09-29-2006, 04:34 PM

LOL!!! Sorry no dis-respect but you just made me laugh. In the film the 'Omen' the child/protagonists name is 'Damien'. Who is supposed to be the devils child. Or the anti-christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Omen

Uh... Yes, I know. I watched that movie when I was 6 years old (and many times since). There's no way of forgetting the nightmares it gave little ol' me.

I said the fact that Ra's heir is named Damien by Talia is a nod to The Omen by Morrison. That part is obvious.

What I don't get is why you said it hints to the fact that he's not Bruce's son. I figured either you think Bruce is Satan or Ra's is the daddy or Satan himself had a one night stand with Talia. So...

saintsaucey

09-29-2006, 04:59 PM

I loved the first issue of this arc but the last two have left me wanting more. The kid is awful and I really wanted to be shocked an awed by the new batmobile and it wasn't finished yet. oh well hope morrison pulls an astonishing ending outa his ass.

Mia

09-29-2006, 06:56 PM

Uh... Yes, I know. I watched that movie when I was 6 years old (and many times since). There's no way of forgetting the nightmares it gave little ol' me....

Well you're braver than me. I stay away from horror movies.

I said the fact that Ra's heir is named Damien by Talia is a nod to The Omen by Morrison. That part is obvious.

What I don't get is why you said it hints to the fact that he's not Bruce's son. I figured either you think Bruce is Satan or Ra's is the daddy or Satan himself had a one night stand with Talia. So...

I just don't think that TPTB at DC/AOL TW are going to let Bruce/Batman be the father to this little killing machine. But then again I may be wrong. After all look at what they are allowing Frank Miller to do to the character in ASB&R.

mandog

09-29-2006, 07:01 PM

this issue didnt do it for me.

DWEarhart

09-29-2006, 07:16 PM

jsg2295

09-29-2006, 07:28 PM

Nah. I'm in favor of the little bastard being Batmans biological son while Tim is Batman's "real" son. If King Arthur can have a crazy psychotic son I think Batman can have one too.
I dont believe there can be anyone more psychotic than Batman is already.

filthysize

09-29-2006, 07:33 PM

I've always figured that Tim is kinda nuts.

Wanting to dress up as a giant bat monster, sure it's silly but it's pretty cool. But wanting to be Robin? I mean, at least Dick and Jason were dubbed into the role, you know? Tim actually saw Dick in the tightie greenies and said "YES. I want to be THAT guy."

Sean Whitmore

09-29-2006, 08:08 PM

I thought he behaved like that in Hush because he doesn't like Selina period and thinks she's a low class skank.

Maybe that's true too, but it was still an act. :)

After Selina storms off, Tim turns to Bruce and asks, "Do you think she bought it?" Then the two of them followed her, to see if she was somehow affecting Bruce's mind and judgment.

SEAN

Optimus

09-30-2006, 12:56 AM

the film freak

09-30-2006, 02:04 AM

I dont believe there can be anyone more psychotic than Batman is already.

Well at least he doesn't go around decapitating people ;)

the film freak

09-30-2006, 02:07 AM

I liked this issue. What a bastard this kid is. I can see him being Bruce's son, but I don't think it will play out that way.

I keep thinking that the new, unfinished Batmobile is Morrison's unconscious guilt over the lateness over his other projects.

Other then Seven Soldiers #1 what has been late?

EDIT: Shit forgot about Wildcats... well that's hardly his fault ;)

What the hell did the little bastard do to Alfred?

Alfred is alive. DC is not going to kill Alfred in a mere 4 part story. He's probably emotionally tramutized but alive.

Damo

09-30-2006, 10:52 AM

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/648372.html#cutid1

I read the book, and when I see DamiAn I think the Omen, son of Satan. It fits, The Demon is the organization founded by Ra's. "Ra's al Ghul", the Demon's head. The League of Assassins, the Demon's fang. Damian, son of the demon.

I look on the forums, and when I see DamiEn I think Damien Rice, semi-popular singer that actually looked a lot more handsome the time I saw him in person (the man must never be allowed cut his hair too short ever again).

^_^

Honestly though I want his name changed to Ibn (son of) Al (the) Xu'ffasch (bat). It just sounds cooler. Ibn al Xu'ffasch. Say it.

Regardless, my takes.

I wish Morrisson would say exactly how Damian was conceved. Not how Batman remembers it, but what happened.

Sad about Talia. Even behind the scenes she's coming off as a bitch, and that's never how I saw her. Look to the O'Neil stories or the Animated Series. Sad, conflicted, torn between the two people who mean the world to her. She may have looked like the cliche "beautiful" daughter of the evil Mastermind* (*=see below) but she had a beautiful soul too, and was honorable to a fault. Unless I've forgotten a line from last issue, it looks like she knew how Damian is being raised, and that sucks.

Going back to when both Robin and Catwoman were being overseen by Chuck Dixon, and without anything recent to strongly contradict it, I thnk Tim doesn't trust Catwoman (and he's been given good reason not to, she was going to sell the Clench cure for money... sure she was going to give it to everyone anyway, but the rich spoiled folks willing to pay didn't need to know that), but he traditionally doesn't think she's a skank or anything either.

Damian's a dick, but I don't think that says anything about who his father is. He was just raised very very very badly.

I think Tim was off his game, but I won't say quite out of character. Not enough scenes to be that firm. Damian definitely sucker punched him psychologically and physically. But I won't say that Tim would have won the fight if not for the sucker punch either, I don't think we've seen enough to be firm either way.

Poor Spook. He was a fun character, a guy whose schtick was professionally breaking other criminals out of prison. That's a useful char to have in the DCU. Oh well.

* Because I mentioned the beautiful daughter of the evil Mastermind, I must have quotes!

"Dear Daddy - freed the hero - disabled the Omega Gun - I know you'll understand - I did it for Love - Zneka" - note to a mad scientist, from Girl Genius by Phil and Kaja Foglio, best married couple in comics.

"When I am an Evil Overlord I will not have a daughter. She would be as beautiful as she was evil, but one look at the hero's rugged countenance and she'd betray her own father." - From the When I am an Evil Overlord advice list.

Tip #1 for the Evil Mastermind's daughter: "If you fall in love with the Hero, and decide to help him, do not declare your intention to save him to Daddy. He'll just lock you away. Of course the Hero will rescue you, but that's demeaning.

Tip #2 for the Evil Mastermind's daughter: "If you fall in love with the Hero, and learn that he has a True Love, carefully investigate the relationship. If she has never returned his affection, the position is still open to competition (but you have to work as the Hero's Sidekick for a while, first). If the True Love returns the Hero's affection, give it up. Especially, and this is vitally important, do not try to eliminate the True Love by killing her, framing her, or subverting her. Just trust me on this one, okay? You'll be unmasked and something horrible will happen to you. It never ends well." - From Tips for an Evil Mastermind's daughter.

Bats

09-30-2006, 01:32 PM

I gotta say I'm loving the arc so far, and in #657 Morrison and Kubert deliver again.
My only concern is the next issue. The story just seems a bit too big to be resolved (to my expectations) in one issue.
We'll just have to wait and see, but I have faith in Morrison and Kubert to deliver the goods.

Damo

09-30-2006, 02:13 PM

We've got an unlikable kid in a Robin suit, and we need the story ended quick.

Just add Joker. Easy fix!

Mia

09-30-2006, 04:53 PM

Maybe that's true too, but it was still an act. :)

After Selina storms off, Tim turns to Bruce and asks, "Do you think she bought it?" Then the two of them followed her, to see if she was somehow affecting Bruce's mind and judgment.

SEAN

Later on in another issue. After Selina saves Robin from Jason Todd. Robin says to her
"I didn't realise that you cared."
Catwoman replies "I don't . But if something happened to you. He'd be hell to live with"

Just got a feeling that the dislike between the two characters was mutual. Not that anyone should take Loeb's way too contrived story as gospel.

[Honestly though I want his name changed to Ibn (son of) Al (the) Xu'ffasch (bat). It just sounds cooler. Ibn al Xu'ffasch. Say it.

Sad about Talia. Even behind the scenes she's coming off as a bitch, and that's never how I saw her. Look to the O'Neil stories or the Animated Series. Sad, conflicted, torn between the two people who mean the world to her. She may have looked like the cliche "beautiful" daughter of the evil Mastermind* (*=see below) but she had a beautiful soul too, and was honorable to a fault. Unless I've forgotten a line from last issue, it looks like she knew how Damian is being raised, and that sucks.

I like Talia alot. I found her quite the embodiment of womanhood. Strong, classy, very intelligent, ambitious with a strong sense of self. I admired her very much. Not an easy feat to achieve.

Much like Emma Frost, her 'badness' seemed to always have an ulterior purpose. She's the kind of character who realises that the world isn't always nice, and sometimes people have to act accordingly in order to get things done. Or for the greater good. She never did things for simple spite. And yes there was always some kind of invisible line that she would not cross.

And while I knew that due to the whole VU and DATM situations, I did not think that there was any hope for a reconcilliation with Batman. I at the same time did not expect this over the top bitch on wheels characterisation that Morison has done.

Damo

09-30-2006, 05:41 PM

My only worry is that this take on her will prove popular. It's child's play to fix ("When I joined the Society, Alex Luthor gave me something so that Dr. Psycho couldn't mess with my mind, but it had side effects on my personality. This also explains Cassandra Cain, don't ask how") unless people make it known that they prefer it, in which case... well ick.

Damo

09-30-2006, 06:25 PM

Remind me, why are we surprised that Damian is a dick? http://www.superdickery.com/dick/207.html

But at least Damian can hang out with Superman's kid. http://www.superdickery.com/dick/151.html

the film freak

09-30-2006, 08:16 PM

Funny. Factually innacurate, but funny. Tim wanted Dick to go back to being Robin. He didn't want to be Robin himself.

Which Dick promptly responded "Go back to being Robin? Have you seen that costume? It's fricking gaytarded. My new threads are way more awesome. Check out this big collar and my man cleavage."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/25/Nightwingwho.jpg

Constantine Drakon

10-01-2006, 04:51 PM

Don't get me started on what's been done with Talia and Emma.

I'm interested in seeing what happens to Damian... but is anyone else more interested in the ninja man bats?

Of course if Damian became a ninja manbat, that's be just prime.

Bob-el

10-01-2006, 07:39 PM

One more nit to pick.

Even if you believe Tim would let his guard down enough for Damien to land that punch, there is no way he should hit the ground. Any Batman protege worth his salt knows how to avoid hitting the ground when he/she falls off of something and knows how to roll with a landing if there isn't time to avoid an impact.

Like I said before, we've got another case of a writer making a hero less competent than usual because it is the only way he can think of to make his story work.

filthysize

10-01-2006, 07:59 PM

He could have been knocked unconscious. Damien had a brass knuckle on and he hit Tim right on the jaw.

Arkham Resident

10-02-2006, 03:04 AM

He suckerpunched him. Robin was actually winning up until then

Yeah, kinda like his Daddy Bruce. When Bat's in trouble will do anything to win.:evilsmile

Arkham Resident

10-02-2006, 03:18 AM

Funny kid this Damian.

art on him was a bit disproportionate. His face actually looks mature to have a body like that. Which is why in some panels he looked like a slim midget.

I also think Batman just was easily convinced or easily convicted to bring in Damian with him. Just because Talia said that he was his son.Or maybe he took him in to use Damian against Talia later.

Imagine Miller's Goddamn Batman of All-Star B&R and Damian together.. what a father and son act would that be? :D

Steel Spider

10-02-2006, 05:59 AM

I read the preview of this issue and I suggested that Bruce call in Nanny 911 but after watching Bruce discipline the kid, I'm sure Bruce will do just fine.

That said, I hope the Joker is on a nearby rooftop with a sniper rifle and just happens to see Damian dressed as Robin.

carabas

10-02-2006, 07:25 AM

Like I said before, we've got another case of a writer making a hero less competent than usual because it is the only way he can think of to make his story work.

Tim only seems less competent if you assume that Damian, being trained in the League of Assassins (who had Shiva as sensei for a while), is not actually very good at beating the crap out of trained martial artists.

Damo

10-02-2006, 08:41 AM

He could have been knocked unconscious. Damien had a brass knuckle on and he hit Tim right on the jaw.

Are they still called brass knuckles when they have great big spikes sticking out of them? O_o Brass knuckles break bone. Add spikes (I think there's a special name) and they break bone and tear flesh. Damian hit Tim in the jaw with a very dangerous weapon. Tim should be counting his lucky stars he's still alive.

TheTen-EyedMan

10-02-2006, 09:28 AM

The thing that irks me so much about this is that the stuff that came before, pre-Greg Rucka's anti-female rant in Death the Maidens, was that Talia's characterisation worked.

She was strong, because she defied her father, and also protected him when needed. She loved Batman and I'd say he loved her.

Denny O'Neil said the last Batman story he would write would be the last fight between Ra's A Ghul and Batman, with Ra's true death. Bruce Wayne retires as Batman, marries Talia and they raise physically perfect children together.

Now that Greg Rucka offed him, using cypher half-sister Nyssa, that's not to be.

Bruce Wayne Jr.

10-02-2006, 10:01 AM

Now that Greg Rucka offed him, using cypher half-sister Nyssa, that's not to be.

Come on, Mr. Ten-Eyed. You're smart enough to know we haven't seen the last of Ra's al Ghul. Wait for it.

carabas

10-02-2006, 11:18 AM

He'll be back rather soon I think.
In the Robin arc that character-assassinated Batgirl, Nyssa was killed.

Mia

10-02-2006, 03:53 PM

Imagine Miller's Goddamn Batman of All-Star B&R and Damian together.. what a father and son act would that be? :D

Yeah Frank Miller must be kicking himself right now.....

The thing that irks me so much about this is that the stuff that came before, pre-Greg Rucka's anti-female rant in Death the Maidens, was that Talia's characterisation worked.

She was strong, because she defied her father, and also protected him when needed. She loved Batman and I'd say he loved her.

I agree. I don't know what the hell Rucka was up with that way out of character treatment of Talia was going on in that book. Does anyone really believe that Talia being CEO of corporation as well as being one of the biggest ice queens in comic books would open up to Nissa like that? I hope to God someone cleans up that mess. At least in BoP she Talia seemed to back to being her own woman.

TheTen-EyedMan

10-02-2006, 07:51 PM

He'll be back rather soon I think.
In the Robin arc that character-assassinated Batgirl, Nyssa was killed.

Double murder...even in comic land you get the needle for that.

Punch

10-04-2006, 12:45 AM

I only have one major :confused: about Tim's behavior, being a very casual reader.
Damien has already killed and beheaded someone, threatened Tim with a grenade and may have killed Alfred.

And still, Tim sits down and talks to him as if he only threw a rock through a window.

Other than that I liked Morrison addressing the bats-in-the-batcave thing. It never made sense for Batman to have all of this state-of-the-art computer equipment and weaponry getting bombardrd by bat shit.

The crime-novelty act was priceless, but I thought Morrison laid it too thick with Damien's brat-ness.

I never really liked Kunert's art, though I really like the clean, less inked shot of Tim flipping down to the ground.

Mutate

10-04-2006, 03:05 AM

can anyone tell me if the morrison and dini storylines are coming out in TPB?

90'sCartoonMan

10-04-2006, 02:46 PM

Not a bad issue. A lot of things happened, but I still wanted to see more of the Batman/Damien interaction. My favorite part was Batman yelling at him, that was creepy (and it shows Batman does understand the kind of training Damien had).

I'm still digging Kubert's art. It's rare we get to see the entire Batcave like that, levels and all. When did Batman fix up the damage the quake caused (I thought that penny was lost forever)?

carabas

10-04-2006, 03:26 PM

can anyone tell me if the morrison and dini storylines are coming out in TPB?

Don't hold your breath.

Assuming the usual 6 issues per volume and a 2-3 months waiting periode for the hardcover, then the usual 6+ months after that for the trade...
Chrismas 2007?

Or summer 2007 if there's no hardcover, which is unlikely at least for orrison's book.

SpecialAgentPunk

10-04-2006, 08:53 PM

I would have expected him to give Bruce more credit instead of immediately getting in a snit. I also would have expected him to be too well trained to fall for such a sucker punch. It looks to me like just another case of a writer using a character whatever way he feels like because it is the only way to get the story to go where he wants it.

I flipped through this at a Borders, and am glad.

It seems that both Tim's characterization and the introduction of Damien are a lesser version of the Dr. Thompson incident. The new direction of the fatherly Batman after IC was something I looked forward to, but I guess I'll have to wait for the next arc. The storyline and occurences are too obvious, which isn't a bad thing, but its writing is weak, and is seeming to lead to no where out of the ordinary.

Sure, Damien is supposed to be the embodiment of all things bratty and evil, as a result of his creation and care, but don't beat me over the head, writer. Us readers aren't stupid and we want more than your first draft.

Damo

10-04-2006, 09:37 PM

...You're comparing Tim doing something thickheaded to Leslie Thompkins killing a kid to convince Batman to stop putting kids in danger.

O_o

It may have been bad characterization, but there are degrees...

We R. Venom

10-06-2006, 08:26 AM

I would have thought Batman havign a son would be a huge deal in the DCU. I guess its not a big event liek i thought it would be. I guess maybe fans dont care. Isnt it a big deal to Batman fans?

Paul Dee

10-06-2006, 08:30 AM

I would have thought Batman havign a son would be a huge deal in the DCU. I guess its not a big event liek i thought it would be. I guess maybe fans dont care. Isnt it a big deal to Batman fans?

Yeah, it hasn't had the impact I would have expected. It's still early days of course and until we see exactly where this goes it's hard to react properly so who knows. Plus there's always the thought that it might not be his real son, regardless of what Morrisson has said.

We R. Venom

10-06-2006, 08:33 AM

Yeah thats very true. Its not liek its a Batman comics crossover event. That would be cool btw. But anyway its best to wait, see what happens. How many issues are left in this arc?

carabas

10-06-2006, 08:37 AM

Yeah thats very true. Its not liek its a Batman comics crossover event. That would be cool btw. But anyway its best to wait, see what happens. How many issues are left in this arc?

Just one, I think.

Anyway, this proves what I have thought for some time now: event stories are events only because they are marketted that way, not because of content.
I mean, Magneto destroyed New york. Kang conquered all of earth. These weren't massive continuity-wide events either.

Paul Dee

10-06-2006, 11:09 AM

Just one, I think.

There's one more story in the Batman and Son story but I always thought Morrison was then meant to be carrying on after this, starting with bringing the Joker back after being shot in the head although after this Batman is done by another team. I thought it was a 12 month run, so perhaps he continues after the next 4 parter by Ostrander and Mandrake. The idea of Batman having a son (whether it's his real son or not) is something that certainly needs to be dealt with in more than 4 issues.

We R. Venom

10-06-2006, 11:32 AM

There's one more story in the Batman and Son story but I always thought Morrison was then meant to be carrying on after this, starting with bringing the Joker back after being shot in the head although after this Batman is done by another team. I thought it was a 12 month run, so perhaps he continues after the next 4 parter by Ostrander and Mandrake. The idea of Batman having a son (whether it's his real son or not) is something that certainly needs to be dealt with in more than 4 issues.

That is what i was first thinking. I mean it just seems liek its a big deal. Or rather it should be a big deal in the superhero community. Is DC holding this story back for some reason? Who knows.

Hellcow

10-07-2006, 08:43 AM

Writing isn't nearly as hot as All Star Superman. I'm sure its a lot funnier in the writers head.... but by the time it gets to the page...

CaptainAwesome

10-07-2006, 03:42 PM

This is the first Batman story I have read in years. Ive never been a major fan of the character, but I had picked up the first couple issues for a friend who likes Batman and I read them. I liked those first issues and the idea that Batman has a son, but this issue just seemed rushed. I hope that Damian isnt just a one-story character and that he is actually Batman's son, simply because I think that would be an excellent way to progress the Batman story. I will get the next issue, but unless Morrison can pull it together I dont think I will bother with the next storyarc.

saintsaucey

10-07-2006, 06:29 PM

can anyone tell me if the morrison and dini storylines are coming out in TPB?

well back in action and the three issues of superman by buesic are already coming out in tpb in december so january maybe not sure though so don't quote me

Rocket13

10-08-2006, 08:21 PM

I'm not buying into the fact that DAmian is Batman's son at all. Any chance he could actually be Talia's Dad actually cloned or reincarnated somehow?

Max

10-11-2006, 06:48 PM

Damien has already killed and beheaded someone, threatened Tim with a grenade and may have killed Alfred.

And still, Tim sits down and talks to him as if he only threw a rock through a window.

Yeah, I agree.

Another thing that bugs me is why wouldnt Batman do a DNA check ASAP on Damian to verify the claim? Makes no sense that he hasnt yet.

IamtheRock3

10-11-2006, 07:27 PM

well the fact it only for 4 issues

may be think it not really his son

so hard to get pumped

good story though.

carabas

10-12-2006, 01:08 AM

DNA checks take longer to complete than the couple of hours that the kid's been in the cave.

Max

10-12-2006, 08:20 AM

DNA checks take longer to complete than the couple of hours that the kid's been in the cave.

Sure, thats all fine and good. But if Damian had enough time to behead someone, trash Tim and tell Alfred to f@$#off. You would think that a DNA check would be easily fitted in.

Even the dialog between Bruce, Tim and Alfred there was not a mention of scientifically verifying the claim. How about a little skepticism ? I dont know...it seems that Bruce is accepting this to easily.

Cripes, if an unknown child of mine was dropped off at my doorstep, after I freaked out, I would be grabing a piece of hair ASAP.

In any event, I dont believe that it is his.

Damo

10-12-2006, 08:52 AM

zebop

10-12-2006, 09:07 AM

So, you're the World's Greatest Detective and you're too friggin' stupid to figure out if you fathered some brat after getting your freak on with a blood enemy's daughter? :confused:

I got two words for you Bats: Blood. Test.

Batman, The DarkKnight Baby Daddy.:rolleyes:

shaunyc56

10-12-2006, 09:08 AM

Well, Talia is acting very much out of character at the moment...

But, historically speaking, Bruce would trust her word as much as Robin's, because there would be no way she would lie to him about something like this.

But, again, she's acting awfully out of character here.

I hate to sound like Johnny Mysogonist here, but, no matter how much you know, love, or trust someone, you need to get that paternity test. Just a huge responsibility, especially if the kid is a borderline phsyco.

Sean Whitmore

10-12-2006, 11:40 AM

Jumping to conclusions is one thing, but people seem to be getting angry at the conclusions they've jumped to.

Maybe he ran a quickie DC-science paternity test off-panel.

Maybe he's currently awaiting the results of a real-world science test.

Maybe he just believes Talia.

Maybe he could see in Talia's eyes that she was lying.

Maybe he knows for a fact that the kid couldn't be his for some reason.

Maybe he doesn't care whether the kid is his or not. Because really, it's completely irrelevant in every respect but his own personal emotions, and this is Batman. He doesn't worry about emotions until after the case is solved.

SEAN

Damo

10-12-2006, 12:53 PM

shaunyc56

10-12-2006, 01:38 PM

But, again, this is TALIA. She hasn't been depicted well for the last few years, but if you read the old stories (including Son of tthe Demon) if this woman came up to Batman and said "he's your son" it makes perfect sense for Batman to just believe her. She wouldn't lie about something like that, and there would be no way it could be anyone BUT him. Just not possible. People are looking at it like it's any old couple, but this is FAR from any old couple.

Your right this isn't any old couple, this the evil today, good tomorrow daughter of a mudering terrorist and the Worlds greatest and arguably most paranoid detective. I know, I know, everybody loves this newer freindlier Batman, but somethings you just have to know for sure. I know it's not romantic, but it's smart.

filthysize

10-12-2006, 03:55 PM

Why run the test himself when he can get paid to do it by going on Maury Povich?

Bruce is a businessman. He thinks money, unlike you lot.

Pyro

10-24-2006, 11:06 PM

I don't think Damian is really Bruce's son, if only because from a marketing point of view it would make Bruce look too old and DC has been trying to keep him relatively young. However, it wouldn't get my knickers in a twist if Damian really is his son, as long as he isn't a recurring character. I really can't stand him, even though I know that he's intentionally written that way. I suppose we shall see the truth soon enough... Unless Morrison decides to leave it ambiguous. That would be lame.

elias_A

10-25-2006, 01:48 AM

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/648372.html#cutid1

"When I am an Evil Overlord I will not have a daughter. She would be as beautiful as she was evil, but one look at the hero's rugged countenance and she'd betray her own father." - From the When I am an Evil Overlord advice list.

Tip #1 for the Evil Mastermind's daughter: "If you fall in love with the Hero, and decide to help him, do not declare your intention to save him to Daddy. He'll just lock you away. Of course the Hero will rescue you, but that's demeaning.

Tip #2 for the Evil Mastermind's daughter: "If you fall in love with the Hero, and learn that he has a True Love, carefully investigate the relationship. If she has never returned his affection, the position is still open to competition (but you have to work as the Hero's Sidekick for a while, first). If the True Love returns the Hero's affection, give it up. Especially, and this is vitally important, do not try to eliminate the True Love by killing her, framing her, or subverting her. Just trust me on this one, okay? You'll be unmasked and something horrible will happen to you. It never ends well." - From Tips for an Evil Mastermind's daughter.

Hey Damo, you read Knights of the Dinner table, too? :)