ANNIHILATION vs. SHE-HULK

[Expletive Deleted]

Andy, I'm not trying to stir anything up, but . . . what'd you think of this week's SHE-HULK #12, with Thanos, Phyla, and Moondragon's appearance and Dan's little dig at ANNIHILATION?

[The Deadpool]

Andy, I'm not trying to stir anything up, but . . . what'd you think of this week's SHE-HULK #12, with Thanos, Phyla, and Moondragon's appearance and Dan's little dig at ANNIHILATION?

I only skimmed it... What dig at Annihilation?

I hate when people try to excuse villanous behavior... Everyone's evil because it's someone else's fault nowadays. Whatever happened to accountability?

Curse you Nicieza, curse you SLOTT!!!

[Expletive Deleted]

MOONDRAGON: In my travels I'd heard you'd reformed, Thanos. That you were on a path of redemption. That you wore naught but simple robes, and that you kept company with . . . a pixie.

THANOS: Heh. Really, Heather. Does that sound like me at all?Dan says he wasn't knocking Giffen's Thanos, so . . . I still don't like the exchange, but I guess it's more me than it is the text.

[Sean Whitmore]

Dan says he wasn't knocking Giffen's Thanos, so . . . I still don't like the exchange, but I guess it's more me than it is the text.


More important than a dig, it sounds like it's ignoring continuity. Unless it turns out the Thanos in She-Hulk isn't really Thanos, or something.


SEAN

[Dermie]

More important than a dig, it sounds like it's ignoring continuity.

Not really, since it specifically acknowledges the continuity by mentioning it.

I wouldn't even really call it a dig at Annihilation, since Thanos' new look and attempts at reformation are all pre-Annihilation. There is no reference to anything from Annihilation in this issue at all...in fact, there are a few things in the issue that indicate it takes place *before* Annihilation.


Unless it turns out the Thanos in She-Hulk isn't really Thanos, or something.

Which is in the realm of possibility, since we've already had Thanos clones and alternate selves, etc, running around before.
And the other option is that this IS the real Thanos, and he's just playing some of his usual mind games and trying to confuse people. That wouldn't exactly be unprecedented for him either.

[Sean Whitmore]

Not really, since it specifically acknowledges the continuity by mentioning it.


Well, I'm certainly not gonna criticize the book without having read it. But it will say it's just a mite odd to think Thanos would lose the robes and Skreet and pop back into his spandex to attend a trial, deny their existence, and then go back to the robes and Skreet once it was over. Which may not be what happened, but I can't think of another way it works offhand.


SEAN

[CyberCoyote]

Well, I'm certainly not gonna criticize the book without having read it. But it will say it's just a mite odd to think Thanos would lose the robes and Skreet and pop back into his spandex to attend a trial, deny their existence, and then go back to the robes and Skreet once it was over. Which may not be what happened, but I can't think of another way it works offhand.


SEAN

You didn't even have to read it to figure it out, Sean. That's exactly what's actually inferred. It's pre-Annihilation as Phyla has the Captain Marvel costume on (which she's abandoning when Thanos kicks her butt) and Thanos has no need to reveal his current lifestyle. When they ask him about the clothes he says, "Heh, really, Heather, does that SOUND like me at all?" (complete with bold text) The only way it could be more obvious to me he was being coy (he's got a silly smirk on his face) is to draw him with his pants on fire :)

[Sean Whitmore]

*shrug* Eh, works for me. He wouldn't be the first villain to go absurdly out of his way to remain mysterious. :)


SEAN

[Eric_Carnaby]

Annihilation wins.
Great event, great books.


She-Hulk loses.
Wildly overrated book, dull plots, uneven art.

[PatchMadripoor]

I loved all the inside jokes, and puns. It is meant for readers who are also reading Annihilation right now and enjoying it.

And Thanos smiling is NEVER a good thing.
For continuity's sake though, this seems to be just before Annihilation.

[tjarvis]

I think it might also be fair to wait and see what Thanos's game plan is in She-Hulk #13.

What happens there might shed further light on what's going on with that line.

[Sanity or Madness?]

Annihilation wins.
Great event, great books.


She-Hulk loses.
Wildly overrated book, dull plots, uneven art.
Agreed.

Slott's got a thing about Thanos, judging from this and his "maniacal idiot" appearance in GLXMas.

Then again, the record suggests that he doesn't like the Greunwald/cosmic characters in general, since he goes out of his way to tear them down at every opportunity (see also; GLA, SHv1)...

[No, that's not the only Bad Thing about Slott's writing for me, just one on a big list...]

[milhouse123321]

Wheres Mr Slott to defend his book?
It was just a little joke and it keeps everything in continuity.. i don't see the problem here

[CyberCoyote]

SLott spoke up in the She Hulk#12 thread on the Marvel boards..

[Cthulhudrew]

I really don't see the big deal myself- why can't Thanos decide to change clothes once in a while? He's worn different outfits before (he wore a simple tunic when he was living in self-imposed isolation on his farm years ago). Maybe his robes were dirty that day, or else he just felt like wearing the blue and gold again. From what I can tell, this takes place prior to Annihilation anyway, so...

As for Skreet, well, they're not exactly married. She annoys Thanos from time to time with her rambling, so maybe he ditched her for a bit. Heck, knowing Thanos, she was probably off doing some dirty work for him while he was taking care of the trial on Titan.

It seems more than a little curious to me that people are making such a stink out of this, but I guess that's just me.

[Elegance Liberty]

Because it's yet another person at Marvel (who isn't involved in the event) taking the piss out of it... again.

I say again, because with the almost zero publicity it's gotten, 'Annihilation' is pretty much the proverbial 'red-headed stepchild' of the summer events this year.

[Soundrave]

It’s message board drama like this that really embarrasses me to be a comic fan.

Slott goes out of his way to work with continuity and establish his latest She-Hulk issue as occurring before Annihilation. It seems obvious to me that Thanos was trying to get his brother in trouble by blaming his obsession with death on him. If Thanos presented himself as the robed, not-so-nihilistic, somewhat-likeable version of himself that Giffen began establishing in the Thanos series and no longer as the Spandex-wearing, obsessed-with-death super-villain of old, then his testimony at Starfox’s trial wouldn’t have had the same impact as it did. So Thanos refuted the notion that he changed his ways without explicitly lying about it.

I thought it was brilliant.

Really, you guys should devote your energies to criticizing Millar’s and JMS’s digs at 40+ years of characterization currently going on in Civil War . . . that’s a travesty. She-Hulk and Annihilation are just two well-written books scripted by guys who know their Marvel continuity and who take the time to make their stories fit in the context of a shared universe. How can you criticize that?

But instead of getting a thread praising Dan Slott for acknowledging the crossover you guys hold so dear, we get a collection of knee-jerk reactions (some from people who haven’t even read the She-Hulk issue in question) to a perceived “dig” that doesn’t even exist. :rolleyes:

[Michael P]

It’s message board drama like this that really embarrasses me to be a comic fan.

Slott goes out of his way to work with continuity and establish his latest She-Hulk issue as occurring before Annihilation. It seems obvious to me that Thanos was trying to get his brother in trouble by blaming his obsession with death on him. If Thanos presented himself as the robed, not-so-nihilistic, somewhat-likeable version of himself that Giffen began establishing in the Thanos series and no longer as the Spandex-wearing, obsessed-with-death super-villain of old, then his testimony at Starfox’s trial wouldn’t have had the same impact as it did. So Thanos refuted the notion that he changed his ways without explicitly lying about it.

I thought it was brilliant.

Really, you guys should devote your energies to criticizing Millar’s and JMS’s digs at 40+ years of characterization currently going on in Civil War . . . that’s a travesty. She-Hulk and Annihilation are just two well-written books scripted by guys who know their Marvel continuity and who take the time to make their stories fit in the context of a shared universe. How can you criticize that?

But instead of getting a thread praising Dan Slott for acknowledging the crossover you guys hold so dear, we get a collection of knee-jerk reactions (some from people who haven’t even read the She-Hulk issue in question) to a perceived “dig” that doesn’t even exist. :rolleyes:
Don't forget the insinuations that Slott's a pussy for defending his work in public.

[Cthulhudrew]

Because it's yet another person at Marvel (who isn't involved in the event) taking the piss out of it... again.

????

Who else has been "taking the piss out of it"? I haven't seen anything but praise for Annihilation by Marvel folk- Joe Quesada has spoken highly of it at various conventions, it's been given the green light for additional series, etc.

I'd be interested to read about some of these detractors of Annihilation that you allude to.


I say again, because with the almost zero publicity it's gotten, 'Annihilation' is pretty much the proverbial 'red-headed stepchild' of the summer events this year.

Sure, it hasn't been on television or in the newspapers like Civil War has (due, largely, to the unmasking of Spider-Man), but I've seen tons of publicity for Annihilation myself- there are the "Annihilation Reports" that came out by various characters, there have been a bunch of interviews with the creators and editor. It is doing well financially (from what I've seen), and again, it has been given the green light for additional cosmic series and limited series, so I'd hardly call it a "red-headed stepchild" of summer events.

Considering the sheer number of events right now- Civil War (which has generated almost as much negativity as positive reviews that I've seen, while Annihilation seems to get a much more positive spin), 52, Planet Hulk, Annihilation, One Year Later- I'd say Annihilation holds up pretty well.

[Joe Acro]

The problem as I see it is that Uncanny X-Men has to be taking place at the same time as Civil War, given that those X-Men aren't in Civil War: X-Men. She-Hulk's Civil War tie-in happened after Civil War began. Uncanny X-Men made reference to Annihilation. Thus, I believe that Annihilation and Civil War are pretty much going on at the same time, except that Annihilation probably started months or weeks earlier. The recent She-Hulk issue seems to contradict this. The presence of those Annihilation cast members doesn't make sense.

[Sanity or Madness?]

Slott goes out of his way to work with continuity and establish his latest She-Hulk issue as occurring before Annihilation.
No, it's the illusion of continuity. Take a look at Cthuldrew's rationalisation, and tell me what is continuous about it (after all, "continuity" comes from "continuous"). It (and GLXmas) are taking a straight, continous road from Thanos to Annihilation Prologue and stretching it and tying knots in it.

[And Joe Acro's right about the more general timeline as well, since the Skrulls in the last UXM issue reference the Annihilation Wave that wiped out the Skrull-worlds, if not by name...]

[Cthulhudrew]

The presence of those Annihilation cast members doesn't make sense.


No, it's the illusion of continuity. Take a look at Cthuldrew's rationalisation, and tell me what is continuous about it (after all, "continuity" comes from "continuous"). It (and GLXmas) are taking a straight, continous road from Thanos to Annihilation Prologue and stretching it and tying knots in it.

Hey, if Wolverine can appear in 4 or 5 different books in the same month, is it really a problem to have a couple of people with teleportational and/or faster-than-light transportational ability appear in 2 different books at or around the same time? :)

[Sanity or Madness?]

Hey, if Wolverine can appear in 4 or 5 different books in the same month, is it really a problem to have a couple of people with teleportational and/or faster-than-light transportational ability appear in 2 different books at or around the same time? :)
If they're appearing in event B before they appear in event A as a result, then yes, yes it is.

[Cthulhudrew]

If they're appearing in event B before they appear in event A as a result, then yes, yes it is.

There is a whole lot of time covered from Annihilation: Prologue to the most current issue (#2). At any point in there prior to their appearance in #2 and post Prologue, these three characters could have appeared in She-Hulk. There really hasn't been any definitive timeline on things- at least on the Marvel Earth side (ie, the mess that is Civil War)- so I'm not sure it's possible to pinpoint just how difficult it might possibly be for them to be on Titan.

Heck, if I'm not mistaken, Captain Mar-Vell is buried on a moon right near to Titan, so this issue of She-Hulk could be taking place right before Annihilation #2. Phyla changes her costume due to Thanos' comments, and Thanos changes back to his robes and reclaims Skreet before assaulting Moondragon and Phyla, just to sort of put the lie to his earlier claim of "does that really sound like me?" Perfectly in character for something he'd do, too.

[Sanity or Madness?]

There is a whole lot of time covered from Annihilation: Prologue to the most current issue (#2). At any point in there prior to their appearance in #2 and post Prologue, these three characters could have appeared in She-Hulk. There really hasn't been any definitive timeline on things- at least on the Marvel Earth side (ie, the mess that is Civil War)- so I'm not sure it's possible to pinpoint just how difficult it might possibly be for them to be on Titan.

Heck, if I'm not mistaken, Captain Mar-Vell is buried on a moon right near to Titan, so this issue of She-Hulk could be taking place right before Annihilation #2. Phyla changes her costume due to Thanos' comments, and Thanos changes back to his robes and reclaims Skreet before assaulting Moondragon and Phyla, just to sort of put the lie to his earlier claim of "does that really sound like me?" Perfectly in character for something he'd do, too.
Except that it ignores how Thanos has been working for Annihilus since Ann:Surfer #2

[CyberCoyote]

If they're appearing in event B before they appear in event A as a result, then yes, yes it is.

Then Annihilation is guilty too, Annihilus had the bands on BEFORE we saw him kill Quasar in the series. Annihilation(the story) is taking months.. the events in one day of CW takes weeks and months just to tell. I've no problem at all with this occuring before the events we see transpire in Annihilation.

[Cthulhudrew]

Except that it ignores how Thanos has been working for Annihilus since Ann:Surfer #2

How exactly does it ignore that? Thanos isn't exactly chained to a desk in Annihilus' ship. He is free to come and go as he pleases, as evidenced by Annihilation #2.

Oh, and the fact that he's Thanos, and isn't ever constrained by anyone.

[Joe Acro]

Then Annihilation is guilty too, Annihilus had the bands on BEFORE we saw him kill Quasar in the series.
What? The bands ended up on the floor. I don't remember Annihilus wearing the bands.

[Cthulhudrew]

What? The bands ended up on the floor. I don't remember Annihilus wearing the bands.

He was wearing them in Annihilation: Silver Surfer #1, which came out prior to Ann: Nova #4, but chronologically took place later.

Nobody noticed it until after the fact, though.

[Joe Acro]

Good. I just wanted to make there wasn't a continuity error within the story.

The best I can figure is that this is a fake Thanos and that Phyla and Moondragon will be/were attacked shortly after She-Hulk leaves by the real Thanos.

[Eric_Carnaby]

Really, you guys should devote your energies to criticizing Millar’s and JMS’s digs at 40+ years of characterization currently going on in Civil War . . . that’s a travesty. She-Hulk and Annihilation are just two well-written books scripted by guys who know their Marvel continuity and who take the time to make their stories fit in the context of a shared universe. How can you criticize that?

:

So whatever the reason, it would be ok for us to "bash" Millar or JMS...but it's a terrible thing to criticize Slott...let me guess...is that reasoning solely based on the fact that you like Slott's stuff but don't like Millar's or JMS'?

I bet it does.

Whatever the reasons, if Bendis, Millar and JMS' work can be put under scrutiny and criticized, so can Slott's.
He isn't a brilliant writer anyway, and besides it's all opinion.

But let's not put him (or any other writer) in some special anti-critique bubble, as if he were some untouchable writing deity whose work was above and beyond fanboy criticism...

[Will.S]

He was wearing them in Annihilation: Silver Surfer #1, which came out prior to Ann: Nova #4, but chronologically took place later.

Nobody noticed it until after the fact, though.
While nobody really saw that clue until Andy pointed it out, Quasar getting killed in Nova and Annihilus donning the bands in Silver Surfer is still chronologically correct. It was pretty clever given their shipping and their timeline, check out Expletive Deleted's timeline thread.

[Soundrave]

So whatever the reason, it would be ok for us to "bash" Millar or JMS...but it's a terrible thing to criticize Slott...let me guess...is that reasoning solely based on the fact that you like Slott's stuff but don't like Millar's or JMS'?

I bet it does.

Whatever the reasons, if Bendis, Millar and JMS' work can be put under scrutiny and criticized, so can Slott's.
He isn't a brilliant writer anyway, and besides it's all opinion.

But let's not put him (or any other writer) in some special anti-critique bubble, as if he were some untouchable writing deity whose work was above and beyond fanboy criticism...

You must lose a ton of cash at the casinos, because your bets aren’t very good.

Slott isn’t infallible and fans shouldn’t pull their punches when he genuinely messes something up. That said, this allegation that he was out to disrespect Annihilation in his latest issue of She-Hulk is quite possibly the most retarded, over-reactionary accusation I’ve ever heard. I can’t believe that it’s been mentioned in three separate threads already. “Annihilation vs. She-Hulk”? Really? Because She-Hulk alluded to Annihilation’s existence? Talk about making a mountain out of a non-existent molehill.

So feel free to put every writer’s work under scrutiny, but I’m of the opinion that writers who take the time to research the characters they’re writing and the universe in which their stories are set should be criticized less than the writers that don’t bother to. Call me crazy.

But let me guess . . . the reason you felt the need to respond to my post is solely based on the fact that you don’t particularly like Slott's work?

I bet it is.

[Eric_Carnaby]

That said, this allegation that he was out to disrespect Annihilation in his latest issue of She-Hulk is quite possibly the most retarded, over-reactionary accusation I’ve ever heard. I can’t believe that it’s been mentioned in three separate threads already. “Annihilation vs. She-Hulk”? Really? Because She-Hulk alluded to Annihilation’s existence? Talk about making a mountain out of a non-existent molehill.
.


That's your opinion.
To you it's retarded, to me it's a genuine and valid criticism.
And why should it not be valid?
Cuz you don't agree with it?




So feel free to put every writer’s work under scrutiny, but I’m of the opinion that writers who take the time to research the characters they’re writing and the universe in which their stories are set should be criticized less than the writers that don’t bother to. Call me crazy.

.

I see.

You expect other people not to criticize certain writers based on what YOU feel they shouldn't criticize them for.
Too bad for you there's such a thing as personal opinion.

And nope, I don't like Slott's writing, just like you don't like Millar's or JMS'.

All opinion, and all of them are fair game as far as fanboys critiquing their work goes.

If people can say "Civil War Sucks", then they sure as hell can say "She-Hulk Sucks" too...the difference is that CW actually sells comics.

[Soundrave]

You expect other people not to criticize certain writers based on what YOU feel they shouldn't criticize them for.
Too bad for you there's such a thing as personal opinion.

Oh, I recognize the existence of personal opinion. It's just that some opinions are objectively wrong.

[Eric_Carnaby]

Oh, I recognize the existence of personal opinion. It's just that some opinions are objectively wrong.

So, opinions can be right and wrong?
Ok...:)

I agree...
Dan Slott's books are brilliant
That's a personal opinion that's objectively wrong...


She-Hulk and The Thing are terribly dull and uninspired books that are also amazingly overrated.

Personal opinion, objectively right.

[The Deadpool]

This can't be pre Annihilation, because this is post Civil War and Annihilation started a good month before Civil War (Super Skrull met Reed Richards in Annihilation Day +46, sometime after the Stamford incident but before the registration act too place).

So Thanos joined Annihilus BEFORE the Stamford incident...

[Joe Acro]

So Thanos joined Annihilus BEFORE the Stamford incident...
Adding more credence to the idea of it being a fake Thanos. For all we know, he has/had a construct/clone on Titan at the moment so that no one would think he was involved with the Annihilation Wave. I mean, does the United Front even know yet?

[Expletive Deleted]

Man, I'm sorry I even brought it up.