Is Mags Omega?

[Barnaby]

Very simple question, is Magneto Omega Level?
I haven't seen any record of him being Omega, but i think he (and Xavier, by the way) should be Omega!

Opinions...?

[fishtaco]

No one should be "omega". That's a goofy concept. He's a very powerful mutant. It should be left at that.

[Barnaby]

I agree with you all the way! But... since they invented that definition, should Mags and Xavier fit in there?

[Titan76]

Magneto nor Xavier are Omega mutants. The only mutants who have been confirm Omega are:


Elixir (New Mutants vol. 2 # 12 by Beast)
Iceman (X-Men: Forever)
Phoenix / Jean Grey (X-Men: Forever by Professor X, also known as the White Phoenix of the Crown.)
Mister M (The 198 Files)
Franklin Richards (The 198 Files)
Kid Omega (New X-Men #154 (appears as Phoenix host) and Phoenix Endsong #2 by various sources)
Rachel Summers (Uncanny X-Men #208 by Nimrod. Once also held the Phoenix)
Mr. Immortal (GLX-Mas by Marvel Comics's Editors[|IGN])
Vulcan

[Barnaby]

He's not Omega, like i suspected... how come?

He's in the top with all the others! When I have a look at everything he's done through the years and the enormous power he wields (and he self limits his own powers like the chick that cloned him once stated...), I truly feel he should be Omega... it's only logic!

[Titan76]

He's not Omega, like i suspected... how come?
Because Marvel has yet to name him Omega.


He's in the top with all the others! When I have a look at everything he's done through the years and the enormous power he wields (and he self limits his own powers like the chick that cloned him once stated...), I truly feel he should be Omega... it's only logic!
Just because he has lots of raw power doesn't mean he is Omega. Omega isn't really about how much power you have its about your potential, potential to have limitless power. Magneto is very power but is most likely just a high Alpha mutant which there is no shame in that.

[Barnaby]

Because Marvel has yet to name him Omega.

True.

I think Marvel forgot or are yet to mention (at least) 4 mutants, when they started all this Omega level thing.

Magneto- for reasons stated above, and i don't even think we've seen the full extend of his power... Magnetism is one of the basic forces in the universe!

Xavier- In terms of telepathy he is (was) still referred as Earth most powerful telepath, he can do pretty much anything in that field.

Scarlet Witch- House of M... 'nuff said.

Mad Jim Jaspers- Only heard of him recently, but for what i could see he's in no way less powerful the Franklin Richards. (don't know if he's dead)

Just my opinion...

[steve2275]

actually mags is mia:p

[jarrod]

True.

I think Marvel forgot or are yet to mention (at least) 4 mutants, when they started all this Omega level thing.

Magneto- for reasons stated above, and i don't even think we've seen the full extend of his power... Magnetism is one of the basic forces in the universe!

Xavier- In terms of telepathy he is (was) still referred as Earth most powerful telepath, he can do pretty much anything in that field.

Scarlet Witch- House of M... 'nuff said.

Mad Jim Jaspers- Only heard of him recently, but for what i could see he's in no way less powerful the Franklin Richards. (don't know if he's dead)

Just my opinion...
Other possibilities...

Storm: has the potential to become a being of pure elemental energy.

Meggan: extremely powerful meta-morph, energy weilder, empath and elemental... almost nothing she can't do actually.

Shadow King: Around for millenia, basically Xaiver's psionic equal.

Cable/Stryfe/Nate Grey: Basically same genetic powerset/potential as Rachel.

Dani Moonster: Quantum abilities amount to pure psionic creation... possible evolution into a reality warper, at least pre-M-Day.

Exodus: 12th century high level psionic vampire. Another "can do about anything" character.

Xorn: Head's a black hole, can revive the dead and other crazy stuff.

Mikhail Rasputin: Energy manipulation on an incomparable scale.

Polaris: Basically like Mangus and then some.

Selene: This one's iffier, but she seems able to manipulate matter in all it's form directly (subatomically?). May be some level of sorcery involved though.

Magma: High level elemental, bonded with core of the Earth.

Stepford Cuckoos: Hive mind, multiplies telephatic abilities 3 fold. Made by Weapon Plus as well, probably in the World.

Cassie Nova: duh!

Proteus: duh again!

Legion: duh some more!



...for many of these though, it's probably a fine line between Alpha and Omega.

[Omega Alpha]

True.

I think Marvel forgot or are yet to mention (at least) 4 mutants, when they started all this Omega level thing.

Magneto- for reasons stated above, and i don't even think we've seen the full extend of his power... Magnetism is one of the basic forces in the universe!

Xavier- In terms of telepathy he is (was) still referred as Earth most powerful telepath, he can do pretty much anything in that field.

Scarlet Witch- House of M... 'nuff said.

Mad Jim Jaspers- Only heard of him recently, but for what i could see he's in no way less powerful the Franklin Richards. (don't know if he's dead)

Just my opinion...

Xavier is the most skillful telepath on Earth, but no way he is the most powerful. I don't know if Magneto is an Omega, although he would be way up on the Alphas list. And i agree about the others.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Magneto is basically a god. He can do things that Iceman and Rachel Summers need power boosters to do on their best day. And Jean Grey has been retconned into being powerful. Originally, she was a baeline telepath and a half competent telekinetic before all of this "Phoenix" nonsense got pushed too far.

[jmc247]

Lets see Mags can create a shield that can take a blast from Galactus, he can control subatomic atoms to create something out of thin air as he did in Secret Wars. He has a certain level of telepathic powers as he can enter the Astral plane without help.

He also can jam psychic powers. He’s done so to all X-Men telepaths at once. He can take Colossus's best punch to the head weakened and without shields and yet stay on his feet. He can create a Force Pulse that can kill thousands. When he first used a Force Pulse he destoryed an entire city and in X-Men the End he was shown with the ability to wipe out all life on a planet with a Force Pulse.

He has the power to lift an entire mountain or astroid. He was able to bottle up the powers of the Phoenix to keep her from re-energizing with power from the Phoenix Force thoughout the universe in X-Men 112.

And, best of all he can warp space time to create worm holes to anywhere he wants to go in the universe.

Magneto at this point in time is at the power level of a low level cosmic being like the Heralds of Galactus. I don't like the concept of Omega, Alpha, or Beta levels for mutants. But, if Magneto isn't Omega level I don't know what is.

[Omega Alpha]

Magneto is basically a god. He can do things that Iceman and Rachel Summers need power boosters to do on their best day. And Jean Grey has been retconned into being powerful. Originally, she was a baeline telepath and a half competent telekinetic before all of this "Phoenix" nonsense got pushed too far.

The powerful retcon was not only with Jean, the Invisible Woman was originally the weakest of the Fantastic Four and now could take the rest of the team on her own pretty easily.

But, at her top, Rachel should be on Cable and X-man's level. Likewise, Iceman is nearly immortal on his icy form, and can do nearly anything.

[Titan76]

Magneto is basically a god. He can do things that Iceman and Rachel Summers need power boosters to do on their best day. And Jean Grey has been retconned into being powerful. Originally, she was a baeline telepath and a half competent telekinetic before all of this "Phoenix" nonsense got pushed too far.
Magneto also needed a power up as well. His Stan Lee days were not very impressive and he would very often just run away from the X-men rather then fight them. Hell Cyclops took out his force-field in the first issue.


Lets see Mags can create a shield that can take a blast from Galactus, he can control subatomic atoms to create something out of thin air as he did in Secret Wars. He has a certain level of telepathic powers as he can enter the Astral plane without help.

He also can jam psychic powers. He’s done so to all X-Men telepaths at once. He can take Colossus's best punch to the head weakened and without shields and yet stay on his feet. He can create a Force Pulse that can kill thousands. When he first used a Force Pulse he destoryed an entire city and in X-Men the End he was shown with the ability to wipe out all life on a planet with a Force Pulse.

He has the power to lift an entire mountain or astroid. He was able to bottle up the powers of the Phoenix to keep her from re-energizing with power from the Phoenix Force thoughout the universe in X-Men 112.

And, best of all he can warp space time to create worm holes to anywhere he wants to go in the universe.

Magneto at this point in time is at the power level of a low level cosmic being like the Heralds of Galactus. I don't like the concept of Omega, Alpha, or Beta levels for mutants. But, if Magneto isn't Omega level I don't know what is.
Magneto has never taken a blast from Galactus, if he has then please give us the issue it was in. Using feats in X-men: the End doesn't count since it doesn't take place in the 616 universe and is mainly just a "What If" story.

And he has only used the wormhole once and we don't know for sure if it can take him anywhere in the universe because its never been followed up on, to say it can is wrong since he has never done it. Hell, it was only used to explain how he got to New York so fast because of Bendis's stupid HoM, so that feat might just be a one time deal.

Having loads of raw power doesn't automatically mean you are an Omega mutant. I could go 20 pages explaining to you why HyperStorm should be an Omega but since Marvel hasn't name him one he isn't. An Omega mutant isn't just about power, its about potential. Magneto has also gone though stages where his powers were burning out and he had to re-charge himself either by machines or by Polaris. So yes there is a good chance he may not be Omega, like wise there may be a good chance he is. But as of right now he isn't, but just because he isn't doesn't screw up his character in anyway, only Bendis does that.:p

[steve2275]

He has the power to lift an entire mountain or astroid. He was able to bottle up the powers of the Phoenix to keep her from re-energizing with power from the Phoenix Force thoughout the universe in X-Men 112.

And, best of all he can warp space time to create worm holes to anywhere he wants to go in the universe.

when were these?

[Titan76]

when were these?
His has moved asteroids a bunch of times since his base used to be an asteroid. He has also lifted Avalon(which is freaken huge) from space to Earth and Earth to space with little ease as well in Uncanny X-men 304. And he did the wormhole thing in Excalibur vol. 2, though I can't remember right now what issue it was in.

[jmc247]

Magneto has never taken a blast from Galactus, if he has then please give us the issue it was in. Using feats in X-men: the End doesn't count since it doesn't take place in the 616 universe and is mainly just a "What If" story.

Actually his shields did hold against Galactus in Secret Wars.

And, we are really talking about what the writers think of Magneto's powers. Claremont certainly thinks Magneto can release a force pulse that can kill billions.

And, that isn't a big streach at all considering before he knew anything about his powers he was able to obliterate an entire city and kill thousands using a Force Pulse. Magneto today is shown as far more powerful then he even was in the 70s and 80s.

[Atom_basher]

Elixir was NEVER confirmed as an omega level mutant, hes was called an omega level HEALER big difference

[Deadpooligan]

...

Cable: Basically same genetic powerset/potential as Rachel.

...


...But, at her top, Rachel should be on Cable and X-man's level. ...

Cable is NOT a telepath/telekinetic anymore. He's a cyberpath with gravitational force-field (gravimetric?) augmentation. He is no where near as powerful as he was as Savior in the first year of Cable and Deadpool, let alone ever on par with Shaman X-Man.

Has Rachel demonstrated anything to put her above Jean Grey?

[lament]

Uh oh. This thread could get as heated as the "Is Iceman Gay?" thread.

No, Mags isn't Omega level. Omega is supposed to be an extremely rare type of mutant, and I think they should refrain from making anyone else Omega level.

[cappa donna]

Iceman is nearly immortal on his icy form, and can do nearly anything.
Anything? That's a stretch, but he can certainly freeze things. :rolleyes:

[sephirothskiller]

Elixir was NEVER confirmed as an omega level mutant, hes was called an omega level HEALER big difference


Except that Cyclops stated immediately after the "Omega level healer" (and I don't feel there's a big difference,) that he has the ability to alter structures on a molecular level, which is pretty Omega to me. He could eventually get to the level where he could just blow people apart. He already has proven that he can kill with a touch. (Though ya know, he went crazy after that.)

I'm pretty sure that its a definate that Xavier was the world's most powerful telepath, not only the most skillful, and this has been stated several times.

[fishtaco]

Just because he has lots of raw power doesn't mean he is Omega. Omega isn't really about how much power you have its about your potential, potential to have limitless power. Magneto is very power but is most likely just a high Alpha mutant which there is no shame in that.Well, there was that time when he opened a wormhole through time and space...

I'd also like to see Magneto's telepathy developed. It's hardly ever used.
But, at her top, Rachel should be on Cable and X-man's level. Likewise, Iceman is nearly immortal on his icy form, and can do nearly anything.Well, she also touched the souls of every single being in the universe and posed a serious threat to The Beyonder (whom many thought was a god). As Phoenix, Rachel had limitless potential, unlike Cable (whom I wish just had the powers he did in his New Mutants days). As Marvel Girl, Rachel can at her best whine and cry. :p

[jarrod]

Has Rachel demonstrated anything to put her above Jean Grey?
Molecular level teke sans Phoenix for one, at age seventeen at that. Ray's far more advanced than Jean was at her age, with far less formal training in her abilities. Her mental abilities are also capable of operating not just in the pshysical and psychic planes, but she can operate on temporal planes (ie: through time) as well, which is something Jean's never been capable of without being Phoenix. Being both second generation mutant and second generation Phoenix, it makes some sense that Rachel would be a bit more advanced than her parents. Same goes for Nathan, which he was when not restricted by the TO virus.

Jean, Rachel and Nate all have the genetic template to elevate to Phoenix level though... that probably means all three automatically class as Omega mutants.

[Deadpooligan]

Question: Would it be appropriate to label AoA Mags as Omega? He seemed to demonstrate considerably more versatility with his powers that 616; at least, I think so.


Molecular level teke sans Phoenix for one, at age seventeen at that. Ray's far more advanced than Jean was at her age, with far less formal training in her abilities. Her mental abilities are also capable of operating not just in the pshysical and psychic planes, but she can operate on temporal planes (ie: through time) as well, which is something Jean's never been capable of without being Phoenix. Being both second generation mutant and second generation Phoenix, it makes some sense that Rachel would be a bit more advanced than her parents. Same goes for Nathan, which he was when not restricted by the TO virus.

Jean, Rachel and Nate all have the genetic template to elevate to Phoenix level though... that probably means all three automatically class as Omega mutants.

Does this mean that Jean's genes carry the... ...Omega factor? Future kid, Sinister test tube kid, and cloned mom kid? She's three-for-three.

[jmc247]

Here is Mags creating a bottle effect around the Phoneix drawing the Phoneix Force from her. Don't tell me someone that can pull a trick like that isn't an Omega.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2629/magdrawslifeenergy8et.jpg

[CE_Rap]

I don't see how Magneto is not Omega level. I think it's ridiculous for him not to be. Or Xavier (powered).

See, what i never understood was how Omega level status was limited to Mutants who supposedly project their powers worldwide. I've seen this idea on these forums and, while i think it's part of it, i don't think it's the only thing to consider.

I believe subatomic manipulation makes you an Omega level as well. If you can F___ with molecules, what CAN'T you do?? So an Omega, a true Omega, should be able to do both. To have Omega level potential SHOULD mean that, currently, you can do one and will evolve into the other in time.

Also, if you can affect every psionic facet to a person's brain, you should count as well. So Shadow King, who can turn off every psychic's ability across the entire globe should be an Omega. Kid Omega, who can't sublimate or cellularly regenerate, can reduce you to a foaming, snot bubbling baby for the rest of your life. I imagine that he could even use your mind to devolve you, so much so that you actually physically look more ape-like. And, now that i think of it, so should Cassandra Nova. She should count too.

Iceman, Jean Grey, Elixir (eventually), Kid Omega, etc. can do this, so they should count. I don't care that Magneto wasn't confirmed because it doesn't make sense. Even scientifically, Magneto can affect subatomic particles AND project his power globally. And he's not Omega? Really??

So, where as Storm can affect the entire ecosystem if she really concentrated hard enough, she will never cause a tornado on the subatomic scale. Also, she'd probably die for even trying. So she's not quite Omega, but she's friggin' high on that list. Maybe whatever is underneath an Omega.

[Titan76]

Actually his shields did hold against Galactus in Secret Wars.
Can you point to me where this is because I'm looking though it right now and can't find it anywhere.


And, we are really talking about what the writers think of Magneto's powers. Claremont certainly thinks Magneto can release a force pulse that can kill billions.
Claremont also writes Storm as the most powerful being on the planet do we take that into consideration as well? We don't go by what writers think they should be, we go by what the characters have been made into canon as being.


And, that isn't a big streach at all considering before he knew anything about his powers he was able to obliterate an entire city and kill thousands using a Force Pulse. Magneto today is shown as far more powerful then he even was in the 70s and 80s.
Again X-men the End doesn't count because it was just a "what if" story. Otherwise do you want me to bring feats others have used in What ifs like Phoenix?


Elixir was NEVER confirmed as an omega level mutant, hes was called an omega level HEALER big difference
He was also listed in Cyclops data base as an Omega class in New X-men Academy X #1. So I think it is safe to say he is Omega.

[colossus34]

No Mags is NOT omega nor should he be. As powerful as he is he has reached his peak at his old age and his powers are not in the same league as say Phoenix or Franklin Richards who control matter and anit-matter at a molecular level which gives them limitless potential for power. Mags does not have that capablity nor should he.

[CE_Rap]

And he has only used the wormhole once and we don't know for sure if it can take him anywhere in the universe because its never been followed up on, to say it can is wrong since he has never done it. Hell, it was only used to explain how he got to New York so fast because of Bendis's stupid HoM, so that feat might just be a one time deal.

Do you realize what you're saying? Does it really matter if he can or cannot go to mars or something with his wormhole? He friggin traveled from Genosha (right?) to New York using a wormhole. A wormhole! So what if he did it once, HE DID IT! That's pretty much gateway's power and he did it. THat's impressive to me. I don't even care if he teleported into another part of the country, that's still amazing. Considering his powers, it's something you might not initially think he could do.

[Titan76]

Well, there was that time when he opened a wormhole through time and space...
I know. I have mention this myself several times and have also said this was mainly a plot-device to explain how he got to New York so fast because of Bendis first arc on Avengers. I would rather see this follow up on and confirm he can do it again rather it being a one time deal. Spider-man has beaten Fireload like three times does this mean he is also on Omega level?

[jmc247]

Magneto's base was totally destoryed by Galactus and only Mags shelds saved them. Read Secret Wars 6 page 9.

[jarrod]

In some cases, I think "what ifs" do count though... again, the Omega class is based on potential ability. Logically if a parallel iteration of Magneto dispalys Omega level (ie: nearly limitless) power levels, it strikes to reason that our version should at least have the same potential.

And as an aside, I think people undercount Storm. She's arguably the highest level elemental mutant recorded and has been shown (in similar "what ifs") to have the potential to become a being of pure elemental energy and manipulate elemental energy directly (rather than manipulating weather patterns, as she does now). That's actually somewhat similar to Iceman's displayed ultimate potential in X-Men Forever.

Another potential Omega I missed earlier would be Chamber (again, pre M-Day).

[jmc247]

I know. I have mention this myself several times and have also said this was mainly a plot-device to explain how he got to New York so fast because of Bendis first arc on Avengers.

From Marvel.com

Although Magneto’s primary power is control over magnetism, he can also project or manipulate any form of energy that is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, including visible light, radio waves, ultraviolet light, gamma rays, and x-rays. He can manipulate gravitons to create an anti-gravity field, and does so whenever he levitates a non-magnetic object. Hence, Magneto may be living proof of the long-sought Unified Field Theory that all forms of energy are related. However, Magneto almost always uses only magnetism, since it’s more difficult for him to manipulate other forms of energy.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Magneto_%28Magnus%29

[Titan76]

Magneto's base was totally destoryed by Galactus and only Mags shelds saved them. Read Secret Wars 6 page 9.
Alright I finally found it. While it was very impressive for Magneto to shield the X-men and himself from a Galactus blast it didn't look like Galactus put much effort into it since he barely notice Xavier and Magneto trying to get inside his mind. And Magneto's base wasn't totally destroyed, just a section of it was.

[Gene M.]

No one should be "omega". That's a goofy concept. He's a very powerful mutant. It should be left at that.

I think this is the first thing you've ever said that makes sense to me. :D

[Titan76]

Do you realize what you're saying? Does it really matter if he can or cannot go to mars or something with his wormhole? He friggin traveled from Genosha (right?) to New York using a wormhole. A wormhole! So what if he did it once, HE DID IT! That's pretty much gateway's power and he did it. THat's impressive to me. I don't even care if he teleported into another part of the country, that's still amazing. Considering his powers, it's something you might not initially think he could do.
You know what's also amazing Spider-man beating a herald of Galactus more then once. Do we now consider Spider-man to be on Omega level?

Yes he did create a wormhole but it was mainly used for plot-device. Magneto open the wormhole as if it wasn't he first time doing it, thing is it WAS. Why didn't he do any other time rather just that once? Which is why it may be just a one time feat that may never be follow up own and shouldn't be consider until its explain better or until he does it again.

[Daithi]

Spider-man has beaten Fireload like three times does this mean he is also on Omega level?

No. It's not like Highlander where if you beat another Omega level mutant you become Omega level.

[Titan76]

From Marvel.com

Although Magneto’s primary power is control over magnetism, he can also project or manipulate any form of energy that is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, including visible light, radio waves, ultraviolet light, gamma rays, and x-rays. He can manipulate gravitons to create an anti-gravity field, and does so whenever he levitates a non-magnetic object. Hence, Magneto may be living proof of the long-sought Unified Field Theory that all forms of energy are related. However, Magneto almost always uses only magnetism, since it’s more difficult for him to manipulate other forms of energy.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Magneto_%28Magnus%29
Yes and Magneto had to use machines to boost up his powers to control the Earth's EM field and hold it hostage in order to get Genosha, why doesn't he just use his own powers?

And there was also a time when his powers were burning out and he needed Polaris as his battery charger to put himself back at his normal levels, why couldn't he just do this himself?

Magneto is very powerful no doubt but its potential not just raw power(which Magneto has) that is what makes a Omega mutant. Just because Magneto has lots of raw power doesn't mean he is Omega.

[Titan76]

No. It's not like Highlander where if you beat another Omega level mutant you become Omega level.
Expect for Firelord has the power cosmic and is way beyond Spider-man yet he was still able to beat him but we don't take that into consideration because this is a feat that goes beyond Spider-Man's powers.

Just like I think the wormhole thing is also a feat that's beyond Magneto's powers as well since from what I know it takes more then just magnetic energy(I'm not even quite sure magnetic energy is used to even open wormholes, isn't it negative energy that is used) to open and close a wormhole.

[Daithi]

Expect for Firelord has the power cosmic and is way beyond Spider-man yet he was still able to beat him but we don't take that into consideration because this is a feat that goes beyond Spider-Man's powers.


No that's more to do with skill and ability than omega level.

[jmc247]

Yes and Magneto had to use machines to boost up his powers to control the Earth's EM field and hold it hostage in order to get Genosha, why doesn't he just use his own powers?

And there was also a time when his powers were burning out and he needed Polaris as his battery charger to put himself back at his normal levels, why couldn't he just do this himself?

Magneto is very powerful no doubt but its potential not just raw power(which Magneto has) that is what makes a Omega mutant. Just because Magneto has lots of raw power doesn't mean he is Omega.

You don't get it do you. It is up to each writer how powerful they want a character to be. Magneto has exibited in different comics the control of the subatomic to reasonably be considered Omega. But, some writers depower him at times, some writers make him hooked on drugs, some writers make him far weaker then others.

But, it depends entirely on the writer. No one here would say that Magneto would need a drug like Kick to increase his mutant power in order to tear NY City apart. Yet, Morrison in order to fit his story had Magneto addicted to kick which supposely increased his power 17 fold in order to get his addiction point across. The power ups that Magneto was getting from Cortez was another attempt by a writer for a drugs metaphor. Magneto being depowered and relying on Lorna was a writers contrivance to explain why Magneto didn't just crush the human uprising overnight.

I look at it this way, has Magneto shown Omega level abilities? Yes. Has that been consistant with the character over time or a fan boy simply hyping up Magneto's powers? No. Has there been contrivances to limit Magneto's power, have him use a drug metaphor for extra power, or have writers simply depower him? Yes.

[Titan76]

No that's more to do with skill and ability than omega level.
And its skill and ability that is mainly Spider-man's powers. Firelord can go at lightspeed and take shots from high end bricks but can be beaten by Spider-man, more then once?

[Omega Alpha]

I'm pretty sure that its a definate that Xavier was the world's most powerful telepath, not only the most skillful, and this has been stated several times.

In the past, sure. But currently, there's no way to consider him the most powerful. Actually, in the 90's, Nate Grey was already confirmed as more powerful than he is.

And Omega is about POTENTIAL. Magneto is one of the most powerful mutants on Earth, but he pretty much always uses his power to the edge. We have seen not but a glimpse of what Iceman or Elixir could do.

[dellicious]

no mags and xavier are not

only elixir, bobby, jean, vulcan, kid omega are confirmed omegas

[Daithi]

And its skill and ability that is mainly Spider-man's powers. Firelord can go at lightspeed and take shots from high end bricks but can be beaten by Spider-man, more then once?

It doesn't make a difference. Scott Summers can beat Iceman with his powers. However Scott's powers are limited and he isn't an Omega. Beating people has nothing to do with Omega level powers.

[CE_Rap]

Expect for Firelord has the power cosmic and is way beyond Spider-man yet he was still able to beat him but we don't take that into consideration because this is a feat that goes beyond Spider-Man's powers.

Just like I think the wormhole thing is also a feat that's beyond Magneto's powers as well since from what I know it takes more then just magnetic energy(I'm not even quite sure magnetic energy is used to even open wormholes, isn't it negative energy that is used) to open and close a wormhole.

I'm assuming you read the marvel.com that jmc247 posted.

MAgnetism is his forte, but he can use all waves and many different forms of energy, it's just much more taxing. The spectrum of energy is infinfite, and there are still many forms we have yet to discover.

So....why can't he tap into that wave of energy, then use electromagnetism to give New York an opposite polarity, thus having New York "pulling" him from Genosha? It makes a lot of sense, even if it was a plot device.

It's not a wormhole in the strictist sense. I think that term is being used too loosely. That's what it looked like, probably, and that's how it works essentially, but it's not like "Farscape" or all those other Sci-Fi tv shows.

[jmc247]

no mags and xavier are not

only elixir, bobby, jean, vulcan, kid omega are confirmed omegas

Saying they are not because someone hasn't said "Magneto is an Omega mutant" doesn't hold any water.

[CE_Rap]

It doesn't make a difference. Scott Summers can beat Iceman with his powers. However Scott's powers are limited and he isn't an Omega. Beating people has nothing to do with Omega level powers.

i agree. Power Cosmic probably makes you Cosmically Cocky too. Whether you like it or not, even CAnnonball beat Galactus ONCE. And.......it never happenend again or was "followed up":p

Spider-man is a clever motherf___er! All those powers don't mean S__ if you don't have smarts. Cyclops/Iceman is a good example, because Cyke is tactically smarter. Iceman's not a dummy, but Cyke could more than take him.

[Titan76]

You don't get it do you.
No I get it just fine. I am not the one trying to hype up a character that his own company who made him and that doesn't condiser him to be Omega to try and say he is.

It is up to each writer how powerful they want a character to be. Magneto has exibited in different comics the control of the subatomic to reasonably be considered Omega. But, some writers depower him at times, some writers make him hooked on drugs, some writers make him far weaker then others.
So, we don't take account any writer that has make Magneto look weak and relies on other things to keep his powers up right?

Magneto should always be written as a guy who controls the subatomic and never be weak, even though that's not the way he was created by Stan Lee. But we don't take Stan Lee's Magneto at all either because it makes Magneto look to weak right?

But, it depends entirely on the writer. No one here would say that Magneto would need a drug like Kick to increase his mutant power in order to tear NY City apart.
Yeah, to bad he needed the drug in order to turn the continents up side down which was clearly explain in the story but you would know that right? And that this feat shouldn't be discuss because it was recton into being not Magneto.

Yet, Morrison in order to fit his story had Magneto addicted to kick which supposedly increased his power 17 fold in order to get his addiction point across.
Actually Magneto wasn't addiccted to kick, it was Sublime in his astral form controlling him, but you know that too right?

The power ups that Magneto was getting from Cortez was another attempt by a writer for a drugs metaphor.
So because it was a metaphor we shouldn't pay attention to this even though Magneto has in the past many times rely on machines and others to boost his powers.

Magneto being depowered and relying on Lorna was a writers contrivance to explain why Magneto didn't just crush the human uprising overnight.
Yes, a depower Magneto with a depower Polaris help would have crushed the human uprising. Never mind he didn't have his powers nor did Lorna because the H.E. shut all the mutants powers off with a machine. Then when they got them back he was powers still were burning out but thanks to Polaris they didn't. But before this happen Magneto's powers were burning out even during the time Apocalypse was trying to absorb them during the "Twelve Saga" but couldn't because they did burn out. And he was only able to get back to his normal levels because he used Polaris as he battery charger.

But since those writers made him weak and not strong like the writers you want means we should just over look this correct?


I look at it this way, has Magneto shown Omega level abilities? Yes. Has that been consistant with the character over time or a fan boy simply hyping up Magneto's powers? No. Has there been contrivances to limit Magneto's power, have him use a drug metaphor for extra power, or have writers simply depower him? Yes.
So you are saying that Magneto has shown Omega level abilities and should be consider Omega even though he has his powers burning out more then once and have to relay on machines to boost his powers more then once but none of this matters because it goes against your agreement that Magneto should be consider Omega. Even though his own history shows that this might not be true.

[jam37wcc]

Amidst all this bickering over Magneto I will throw out another name, Jamie Braddock.

Also I want to say that I remember reading where Apocalypse could control his own body on a subatomic level, would he be considered Omega Level?

[Titan76]

I'm assuming you read the marvel.com that jmc247 posted.
I go by what is shows and says in the comic not by a website. The can be one thing today and post something totally different the next day.

MAgnetism is his forte, but he can use all waves and many different forms of energy, it's just much more taxing. The spectrum of energy is infinfite, and there are still many forms we have yet to discover.
Expect for Magneto has never used other forms of energy like negative energy and to now say he can is incorrect. And if Mags was Omega and since he has come to his prime years him have a hard time trying the control theses other forms of energies doesn't help his case in being Omega.

So....why can't he tap into that wave of energy, then use electromagnetism to give New York an opposite polarity, thus having New York "pulling" him from Genosha? It makes a lot of sense, even if it was a plot device.
Because it takes more then just magnetic energy to make a wormhole. Do we now say Iceman can freeze energy like the he did the Stranger's even though from what I know that's not possible?

It's not a wormhole in the strictist sense. I think that term is being used too loosely. That's what it looked like, probably, and that's how it works essentially, but it's not like "Farscape" or all those other Sci-Fi tv shows.
To bad its been stated it was a wormhole he made. No one is using the term loosely, they are just going by what the comic shows and says.

[Titan76]

Saying they are not because someone hasn't said "Magneto is an Omega mutant" doesn't hold any water.
You mean we shouldn't listen to the company that owns, writes, and created Magneto and are responsible for ranking his power levels? It doesn't hold water that Marvel has never listed him as Omega in his entire history but because you think he is Omega that he is and you over ride Marvel?

[Titan76]

And Omega is about POTENTIAL. Magneto is one of the most powerful mutants on Earth, but he pretty much always uses his power to the edge. We have seen not but a glimpse of what Iceman or Elixir could do.
Beautiful.:) Someone else who gets it.

[jarrod]

Amidst all this bickering over Magneto I will throw out another name, Jamie Braddock.
Well, to open a whole new can o' worms.... Jamie's not a mutant. And neither is Betsy. ;)




Also I want to say that I remember reading where Apocalypse could control his own body on a subatomic level, would he be considered Omega Level?
Nope, because those expanded abilities weren't part of his natural mutations... the were augmented abilities given to him through Celestial technology.

[Barnaby]

Let's all consider that right now Iceman is no match to Mags. Ok, let us say he is at 25% of his capacity or potencial (power wise) and Mags is at 90% (he's older, more adapted to his powers).
My point is that when both of them reach 100% they'll be equivalents.

What i'm trying to say is that Mags maybe is an Omega, only with the great part of his potential already developed, leaving him only a small portion of his power to unveil... unlike Iceman, with not that much raw power, but lots o f potential yet to develop.

[Omega Alpha]

Let's all consider that right now Iceman is no match to Mags. Ok, let us say he is at 25% of his capacity or potencial (power wise) and Mags is at 90% (he's older, more adapted to his powers).
My point is that when both of them reach 100% they'll be equivalents.

What i'm trying to say is that Mags maybe is an Omega, only with the great part of his potential already developed, leaving him only a small portion of his power to unveil... unlike Iceman, with not that much raw power, but lots o f potential yet to develop.

With 100%, Iceman will be more powerful than Magneto, not his equal, that's the point.

[shades of eternity]

so why don't they.

[dellicious]

Let's all consider that right now Iceman is no match to Mags. Ok, let us say he is at 25% of his capacity or potencial (power wise) and Mags is at 90% (he's older, more adapted to his powers).
My point is that when both of them reach 100% they'll be equivalents.

What i'm trying to say is that Mags maybe is an Omega, only with the great part of his potential already developed, leaving him only a small portion of his power to unveil... unlike Iceman, with not that much raw power, but lots o f potential yet to develop.

u dont get it do u
omegas have no limit

magneto or anyone can reach 100%

but characters like jean and bobby go beyond that
they have no upper limit

[jmc247]

You mean we shouldn't listen to the company that owns, writes, and created Magneto and are responsible for ranking his power levels? It doesn't hold water that Marvel has never listed him as Omega in his entire history but because you think he is Omega that he is and you over ride Marvel?

No I am saying the absence of anyone saying Magneto is an Omega does not in fact prove Magneto is not an Omega.

But, of course you knew that already and are just wasting my time.

[Barnaby]

u dont get it do u
omegas have no limit

magneto or anyone can reach 100%

but characters like jean and bobby go beyond that
they have no upper limit

Well, then you're telling me that Iceman has no limit to what he can do? Even if he works at a subatomic level there IS a limit for what you can do with temperature, water, even molecules of hidrogen and oxigen! Can Iceman freeze the entire Ominverse once his powers are 100%?? I don't think so! That would be plain stupid...

[jmc247]

u dont get it do u
but characters like jean and bobby go beyond that
they have no upper limit

What is Magneto's upper limit then? He seems to be stronger and find new ways of manipulating the fundamental forces of the univerise every couple years. Finding ways of tearing space time isn't a little jump. But, his true potental is not know.

If you don't believe me here is what Professor X said in Excalibur 8.

"The Phoneix apparently represents one of the primal transcendental forces of creation. By the same token, Magnetism is one of the four foundation elements of the physical universe. I doubt even Magneto himself knows his limits or his true potental. I suspect there's literally nothing he could not do."

[dellicious]

No I am saying the absence of anyone saying Magneto is an Omega does not in fact prove Magneto is not an Omega.

But, of course you knew that already and are just wasting my time.


u cant prove something by saying its negative hasnt been said

thats like saying oh no one said i wasnt rich so i must be

[jmc247]

thats like saying oh no one said i wasnt rich so i must be

Excalibur 8

"The Phoneix apparently represents one of the primal transcendental forces of creation. By the same token, Magnetism is one of the four foundation elements of the physical universe. I doubt even Magneto himself knows his limits or his true potental. I suspect there's literally nothing he could not do."


If this isn't definition of an Omega mutant I don't know what is. Just because Professor X didn't just say he is an Omega mutant doesn't mean that wasn't exactly what he was talking about. How many people can bottle the power of the Phoenix with their own power.

[dellicious]

oops double post dam interent

[dellicious]

Excalibur 8

"The Phoneix apparently represents one of the primal transcendental forces of creation. By the same token, Magnetism is one of the four foundation elements of the physical universe. I doubt even Magneto himself knows his limits or his true potental. I suspect there's literally nothing he could not do."


If this isn't definition of an Omega mutant I don't know what is. Just because Professor X didn't just say he is an Omega mutant doesn't mean that wasn't exactly what he was talking about. How many people can bottle the power of the Phoenix with their own power.


its not only the power but the potential

that is why not all telepaths are omegas
not all people who control magnetism are omegas

they all have varying limits
magneto isnt one and xavier isnt one despite being very skilled and powerful

not knowing your limit doesnt mean u have none
heck a lot of people dont know what they are capable of doesnt mean they are capable of doing everything
its rare

[jarrod]

its not only the power but the potential

that is why not all telepaths are omegas
not all people who control magnetism are omegas

they all have varying limits
magneto isnt one and xavier isnt one despite being very skilled and powerful
Er... but that passage more implies that Magnus actually has no limits. That he has the potential to do just about anything...

[captain_unimpressive]

From what I've heard, it sounds like there are only two levels: Alpha and Omega. It might make more sense if there was a bit more precision to the "level" thing; perhaps a few more should be added. Here's my ideas:

Zeta: A mutant with low-level/highly impractical powers, like, let's say, a paranormally flexible left pinky.
Alpha: A mutant with normal-to-average abilities that are typically hidden, like maybe Blob (he's just fat, mostly) or Jubilee.
Beta: A mutant with notably superhuman power, often to the point of becoming prominently visible. Cyclops, Beast and the original Jean Grey would fit in this category.
Gamma: A mutant who has shown extremely high-powered abilities like Iceman, Juggernaut, Sinister, etc.
Delta: Almost Omega-class, these mutants have nearly limitless potential. These would include those people who seem Omega-class but don't fit in on technicalities or the lack of ability to fulfill that potential; for example, Elixir.
Omega: The big ones. Basically the same definition as established (as vague as that definition is) but perhaps a bit more exclusive.

[dellicious]

From what I've heard, it sounds like there are only two levels: Alpha and Omega. It might make more sense if there was a bit more precision to the "level" thing; perhaps a few more should be added. Here's my ideas:

Zeta: A mutant with low-level/highly impractical powers, like, let's say, a paranormally flexible left pinky.
Alpha: A mutant with normal-to-average abilities that are typically hidden, like maybe Blob (he's just fat, mostly) or Jubilee.
Beta: A mutant with notably superhuman power, often to the point of becoming prominently visible. Cyclops, Beast and the original Jean Grey would fit in this category.
Gamma: A mutant who has shown extremely high-powered abilities like Iceman, Juggernaut, Sinister, etc.
Delta: Almost Omega-class, these mutants have nearly limitless potential. These would include those people who seem Omega-class but don't fit in on technicalities or the lack of ability to fulfill that potential; for example, Elixir.
Omega: The big ones. Basically the same definition as established (as vague as that definition is) but perhaps a bit more exclusive.


they do have beta class mutants and what not
and jean grey and iceman are omega mutants
this was known back when they were still teenagers in their original xmen duds
u dont become an omega mutant
u just are or u arent

[Barnaby]

its not only the power but the potential

that is why not all telepaths are omegas
not all people who control magnetism are omegas

they all have varying limits
magneto isnt one and xavier isnt one despite being very skilled and powerful

not knowing your limit doesnt mean u have none
heck a lot of people dont know what they are capable of doesnt mean they are capable of doing everything
its rare


Xavier's quote says EXACTLY that.
"I doubt even Magneto himself knows his limits or his true potental. I suspect there's literally nothing he could not do."

And the truth is that everytime Magneto reappears he's stronger than the previous time, and until now, i believe we haven't seen all the spectrum of his powers, just like Xavier said.

[dellicious]

Xavier's quote says EXACTLY that.
"I doubt even Magneto himself knows his limits or his true potental. I suspect there's literally nothing he could not do."

And the truth is that everytime Magneto reappears he's stronger than the previous time, and until now, i believe we haven't seen all the spectrum of his powers, just like Xavier said.

he says suspect not know or for sure
and magneto uses peopel like fabian cortez, drugs, or other mutants to increase his powers
not knowing your potential is different from having unlimited potential

jubilee doesnt know her full potential or limit either doesnt mean shes omega
almost all the students wouldnt know their limit or potential doesnt mean they have no limit or unlimited potential

did claremont write this issue because under he likes to write crazy power stunts everyone has indomitable wills and is super powerful
i know he made storm that was

storm 4eva

[jarrod]

did claremont write this issue because under he likes to write crazy power stunts everyone has indomitable wills and is super powerful
i know he made storm that was

storm 4eva
Actually I think Davis was the first to imply Ororo may be Omega level in his Ages of Apocalypse storyline during the Twelve. She because a being of pure elemental energy.

[dellicious]

Actually I think Davis was the first to imply Ororo may be Omega level in his Ages of Apocalypse storyline during the Twelve. She because a being of pure elemental energy.


i love storm and personally believe she is but until then we'll see
but weve also seen other realities where storms powers actually degraded with age so im not quite sure which way they go

[dellicious]

Actually I think Davis was the first to imply Ororo may be Omega level in his Ages of Apocalypse storyline during the Twelve. She because a being of pure elemental energy.


i love storm and personally believe she is but until then we'll see
but weve also seen other realities where storms powers actually degraded with age so im not quite sure which way they go
id love to see them confirm it but if they dont then its no loss

and becoming an elemental being isnt a sign of being an omega
lots of mutants become various substances or elements like rock metal fire diamond
air
theyre not omegas

[jarrod]

and becoming an elemental being isnt a sign of being an omega
lots of mutants become various substances or elements like rock metal fire diamond
air
theyre not omegas
There's a pretty clear difference though, in that Storm had actually become a being of pure elemental energy. This is a bit different from shapeshifters like Mystique or characters like Colossus, Husk or Mercury. Storm evolved past having a physical form, she became pure energy and could manipulate pure elemental energy completely in all it's forms. It's more like Iceman's ultimate Omega potential of being able to manipulate even is own form into various states of water on a molecular level. Chamber's end potential was somewhat similar (becoming a being of pure psionic energy), which is why I'd guess all are (or were in Jono's case) Omegas.

[Haunt]

i like characters to have limits.

[Loestal]

i like characters to have limits.

Question: Do you count something like...say X-man, having a limit? That is...limitless power, but death being the price?

[CE_Rap]

I think you have to be careful when you say "limit." Sure, people don't necessarily need to become power cosmic or even have that potential. But, in the extreme sense, limiting a character sometimes means keeping them restricted to the "same old two step." I don't need Cyclops or Storm to become Omega level as much as i CRAVE them to find inventive ways of using their powers.

How can they be X-Men, and yet, not be able to vary the ways they use their abilities? That's like a magician doing the same trick at every show, everytime. Like Jackie Chan doing the same type stunt and never trying something new.

I care about the characters, and part of the being an X-Man or in teh X-Universe deals with growing into ones power. It's silly for them to never find new ways to use them.

Forget Omega, bring on the creativity.

[ReaderX]

This may be an argument for another time, but where would Rogue fit into all of this? In Xtreme X-Men, she had full control of her abilities, which gave her access to every powered being she ever touched. Rogue definitely has the potential, and she even bottled up the Shadow King in the same manner that Betsy did. But is she omega?

[jarrod]

Rogue's not omega, though she could probably absorb one. :P

[Erik Lehnsherr]

The powerful retcon was not only with Jean, the Invisible Woman was originally the weakest of the Fantastic Four and now could take the rest of the team on her own pretty easily.

But, at her top, Rachel should be on Cable and X-man's level. Likewise, Iceman is nearly immortal on his icy form, and can do nearly anything.

He's immortal and unstoppable yet he can't stop Vulcan and was nonfactor in every big storyline of the last 15 years? That's the problem with Drake. Except for that Legion foiling where he still lost, he has never been shown to be omnipotent in the least. And Rachel has never been X-Man level. She has had time traveling abilities and her powers were boosted during the Excalibur run against Beyonder but that's it. I wish she was portrayed with X-Man or Silver Surfer level power again.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Magneto also needed a power up as well. His Stan Lee days were not very impressive and he would very often just run away from the X-men rather then fight them. Hell Cyclops took out his force-field in the first issue.


Magneto has never taken a blast from Galactus, if he has then please give us the issue it was in. Using feats in X-men: the End doesn't count since it doesn't take place in the 616 universe and is mainly just a "What If" story.

And he has only used the wormhole once and we don't know for sure if it can take him anywhere in the universe because its never been followed up on, to say it can is wrong since he has never done it. Hell, it was only used to explain how he got to New York so fast because of Bendis's stupid HoM, so that feat might just be a one time deal.

Having loads of raw power doesn't automatically mean you are an Omega mutant. I could go 20 pages explaining to you why HyperStorm should be an Omega but since Marvel hasn't name him one he isn't. An Omega mutant isn't just about power, its about potential. Magneto has also gone though stages where his powers were burning out and he had to re-charge himself either by machines or by Polaris. So yes there is a good chance he may not be Omega, like wise there may be a good chance he is. But as of right now he isn't, but just because he isn't doesn't screw up his character in anyway, only Bendis does that.:p

The 60s weren't impressive for anyone. It was hero exclusive. By the 70s and 80s came around, he had slapped around Avengers, Hulk, and X-Men repeatedly.

Magneto did survive Galactus' brunt in Secret Wars. It's canon. Not speculation.

And before his powers were taken to kick start the Decimation storyline, he was wormholing. Something that apparently not even the Silver Surfer can do. Hell, from the way New Avengers #20 ended, it seems he may have wormholed out of another situation to leave the heroes of the world dumbfounded yet again.

[jarrod]

He's immortal and unstoppable yet he can't stop Vulcan and was nonfactor in every big storyline of the last 15 years? That's the problem with Drake. Except for that Legion foiling where he still lost, he has never been shown to be omnipotent in the least. And Rachel has never been X-Man level. She has had time traveling abilities and her powers were boosted during the Excalibur run against Beyonder but that's it. I wish she was portrayed with X-Man or Silver Surfer level power again.
As Phoenix, Ray was quite a bit beyond X-Man's power levels. Even now though (sans Phoenix), she's been performing stunts that most telekinetics couldn't manage (genetic cascade, molecular level teke, creating a mini-black hole, holding Providence aloft, etc)... she seems pretty much on level with Nate now, when she's not stumbling over herself anyway. Maybe Roma cast a "jinx factor" on her? ;)

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Oh no she wasn't, my friend. Nate Grey was pretty much Celestial level. In Cable #29, it's stated in BOLD print that his power outranks Dark Phoenix's(the most powerful Phoenix EVER). Nate Grey was a matter manipulator, moleculer rearranger, could bring beings back to life, etc. If Rachel was that powerful today, why is Vulcan even a threat?

[jarrod]

Oh no she wasn't, my friend. Nate Grey was pretty much Celestial level. In Cable #29, it's stated in BOLD print that his power outranks Dark Phoenix's(the most powerful Phoenix EVER). Nate Grey was a matter manipulator, moleculer rearranger, could bring beings back to life, etc. If Rachel was that powerful today, why is Vulcan even a threat?
Well, I have to admit I only read X-Man at the very beginning... but there he just seemed like an extremely high level teke/telepath. Outside reviving the dead though, Ray seems generally capable of those other stunts (indeed her teke can operate on the subatomic level)... who did Nate bring back btw? The only real difference between them these days seems to be competence.

Actually, Ray and Nate's initial appearances in 616 reminded me as quite similar, both being extremely powerful, extremely hurt/scared/confused and extremely dangerous. It's a shame Ray was gone by the time Nate showed up, she could've been something of a mentor to him maybe.

I read the Counter-X shaman stuff too though, and Nate seemed quite a bit more capable then when I'd remembered him first appearing. At the end, I always took his eventual discoperation with elevating to the WHR though possibly, then elevating to a Phoenix.

[Titan76]

The 60s weren't impressive for anyone.
True but that still doesn't change the fact that he needed a power up just like every other hero/villain in Marvel.

It was hero exclusive. By the 70s and 80s came around, he had slapped around Avengers, Hulk, and X-Men repeatedly.
Yep and in the 90's he was getting power down and power up all the time. Magneto wasn't ultimate power like he was in the 70's or 80's since day one. Nor was any other character for that matter. He require power ups just like everyone else did.


And before his powers were taken to kick start the Decimation storyline, he was wormholing. Something that apparently not even the Silver Surfer can do.
Maybe but since he can fly at up to hyper space speeds I don't think he has ever had a reason for trying.

[Titan76]

In Cable #29, it's stated in BOLD print that his power outranks Dark Phoenix's(the most powerful Phoenix EVER).
No it didn't. Moria say that he was equal to DP and that they were just guessing. She wasn't for sure if he actually was on that level. But for him to even be a guess on DP level is very powerful indeed. And White Phoenix is the most powerful one.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Well he was breaking dimensional barriers and battling other versions of himself. That's cosmic mutant stuff. There is NO mutant in history that has ever been that independently powerful without a upgrade of some sort. He was basically mutantkind's Silver Surfer but with more skill and more ruthlessness. I take that back. Hyperstorm was a mutant with no limits as well.

As for Magneto? He got a power up. Just like EVERYone else. What's the problem? Why keep complaining about it? He IS capable of wormholing. It's canon. That shield also hasn't gotten broken since that first appearance which was during a era where storytelling was about pushing superheroes without giving second thought to the credibility of their villians. Once they made Magneto the TOP focus of the X-universe, he would become the top drawing villiain in Marvel.

In Defenders, on just his base power, he was putting down Hulk and during his first run in with Thor, he stalemated the "God of Thunder". That's much MORE than what a Iceman was capable of doing at that time when his little ice shields would break when Juggernaut would hit it with a pinky.

Silver Surfer fans have outright stated that Surfer would have difficulty trying to wormhole. It's beyond his range. That's why Magneto's powers expanding are so believable. He controls the EM spectrum of the planet and has the magnetosphere to play with. Who knows what it could all lead to in future plots.

As for him being old as his detractors were glad to point out on page 2? Chronologically he is but he's only 34-37 at best physically. Marvel time goes REAL slow.


Jarrod: In X-Man #5, he was dreaming about his genetic mother in Jean Grey and he rebirthed the 616 Madelyne Pryor instead. She even matched his power feats by the time they collided in X-Man #25 as well. And yeah..I would of loved to have seen a limited series between Nate Grey and Rachel..my two favorite Summers' family members.

[dellicious]

As Phoenix, Ray was quite a bit beyond X-Man's power levels. Even now though (sans Phoenix), she's been performing stunts that most telekinetics couldn't manage (genetic cascade, molecular level teke, creating a mini-black hole, holding Providence aloft, etc)... she seems pretty much on level with Nate now, when she's not stumbling over herself anyway. Maybe Roma cast a "jinx factor" on her? ;)


to be fair though i dont think x-man, cable or jean grey would ever want to turn themselves into a reptile
id assume if they wanted to they could especially i remember jean was able to change not only herself but cable, gambit, and beast on some sort of genetic level so that scanners and machines who scan for mutants couldnt detect or recognize them

the black hole she needed sage and the rest of the teams help for

shes not on nates level
nate is more powerful than her id say and thats rthe current rachel who is accessing parts of phoenix

[jarrod]

Jarrod: In X-Man #5, he was dreaming about his genetic mother in Jean Grey and he rebirthed the 616 Madelyne Pryor instead. She even matched his power feats by the time they collided in X-Man #25 as well. And yeah..I would of loved to have seen a limited series between Nate Grey and Rachel..my two favorite Summers' family members.
I'd always understood that Maddie to be more of a psychic construct, rather than the original Maddie brought back though. Nate effectively created her, rather than resurrected her.

Rachel and Jean both resurrected themselves though after death (Jean twice actually if you count HCT). I wonder if we might ever see Nate again? Maybe as the new Phoenix? It'd be a nice counter to Ray as Marvel Girl.

[dellicious]

I'd always understood that Maddie to be more of a psychic construct, rather than the original Maddie brought back though. Nate effectively created her, rather than resurrected her.

Rachel and Jean both resurrected themselves though after death (Jean twice actually if you count HCT). I wonder if we might ever see Nate again? Maybe as the new Phoenix? It'd be a nice counter to Ray as Marvel Girl.


maddie was a psychic contstruct i remembering reading that in xman 25

[jarrod]

to be fair though i dont think x-man, cable or jean grey would ever want to turn themselves into a reptile
id assume if they wanted to they could especially i remember jean was able to change not only herself but cable, gambit, and beast on some sort of genetic level so that scanners and machines who scan for mutants couldnt detect or recognize them
It's not the first time Rachel's done something like that though... she also pulled a similar stunt on Cyclops and the Invisible Woman during DOFPresent, reversing the hound engineering done to their genomes. Though admittedly, she was Phoenix during that period.

I don't believe Nate or Nathan have ever done anything similar on the genetic level, though Nate did create a psychic replica of Maddie from thin air.



the black hole she needed sage and the rest of the teams help for
Ray's power alone was what created the black hole, Sage's guidance and the team's support was for mental focus at controlling it's force.



shes not on nates level
nate is more powerful than her id say and thats rthe current rachel who is accessing parts of phoenix
I'd say Ray now is about where Nate was when he first appeared in 616. She should be around the same age too (20-21). And honestly, it's been implied that both were subversively manifesting their genetic potential as Phoenix.

[dellicious]

well makes sense since theyre jeans children

i wonder what a child of magneto and jean could be capable of:evilsmile

now onto storm, storm almost took out magneto once so she pretty powerful on her right

[jarrod]

i wonder what a child of magneto and jean could be capable of:evilsmile
Yikes! Rachel, Wanda, Nate and Lorna are all heavy hitters already, I'd be afraid to think what a mutant with their combined genetics would be capable of.



now onto storm, storm almost took out magneto once so she pretty powerful on her right
I think's Storm's generally underrated as just "controlling weather" when her abilities really stretch beyond that. At her peak, she's likely to have complete control over any and all elemental forces... I think she's definite rival power wise to Magnus.

Really, only Claremont and Davis have hinted towards Storm being a potential Omega though. Everyone else seems content with having her just fly on winds and throw lightning now and then. :/

[Haunt]

Question: Do you count something like...say X-man, having a limit? That is...limitless power, but death being the price?

if your powers go out of control and kill you, they obviously weren't limitless. but, heck, i didn't like X-Man.

[Barnaby]

if your powers go out of control and kill you, they obviously weren't limitless. but, heck, i didn't like X-Man.

I think that can be the problem with Mags... I think he does have almost limitless potencial, but his body seems unable to cope with that, yet...

See what happen to Joseph, although he was a clone, maybe "genetically" weaker than Erik.

[static]

so then lets get down to the nitty gritty...who is Omega level???(and still powered after m-day)

my picks

Magneto
Jean Grey
professor X
Cyclops
Havok
Storm
Iceman
Scarlet Witch
Apocalypse
Jamie Braddock

any ideas???

[Syzygy]

I can't believe we're even having this debate.

Both Xavier and Magneto are Omega-level mutants. It's an easy call. They've consistently been referred to as, and displayed as, two of the most supremely powerful mutants on Earth. No question.

While Marvel hasn't given a precise definition of what an "Omega" is, the references we've gotten refers to mutants whose potential is "off the charts" or "unlimited" within their own sphere, or has some measure of global reach. Variety and number of power stunts is likely also a factor.

Magneto, Xavier, Absolom Mercator, Scarlet Witch, Franklin Richards...all easy calls.

The fact that someone is Omega level doesn't mean that they can't strain themselves, body or mind. That's always a risk. The greater the power, the greater the struggle for control, including mental instability, physical strain, and even periods where a power "shuts off" or dampens until it can regenerate.

Xavier has been referred to--repeatedly--as the most powerful mutant mind on Earth. We've seen flashes of what this means in Onslaught and Cassandra Nova, both "dark twins" of his in the archetypical sense. For example, it was stated that Cassandra Nova accessed "the full spectum of latent powers in the Xavier genome", which included not just Omega level telepathy, but telekinesis, matter manipulation, phasing, and regeneration. Why hasn't Xavier ever demonstrated these powers? Probably because he knows the dangers to mind and body when an Omega level mutant truly utilizes their full potetial...as Scarlet Witch and Magneto himself, for example, amply demonstrates.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Omega Alpha]

I can't believe we're even having this debate.

Both Xavier and Magneto are Omega-level mutants. It's an easy call. They've consistently been referred to as, and displayed as, two of the most supremely powerful mutants on Earth. No question.

While Marvel hasn't given a precise definition of what an "Omega" is, the references we've gotten refers to mutants whose potential is "off the charts" or "unlimited" within their own sphere, or has some measure of global reach.

Magneto, Xavier, Absolom Mercator, Scarlet Witch, Franklin Richards...all easy calls.

The fact that someone is Omega level doesn't mean that they can't strain themselves, body or mind. That's always a risk. The greater the power, the greater the struggle for control, including mental instability, physical strain, and even periods where a power "shuts off" or dampens until it can regenerate.

Xavier has been referred to--repeatedly--as the most powerful mutant mind on Earth. We've seen flashes of what this means in Onslaught and Cassandra Nova, both "dark twins" of his in the archetypical sense. For example, it was stated that Cassandra Nova accessed "the full spectum of latent powers in the Xavier genome", which included not just Omega level telepathy, but telekinesis, matter manipulation, phasing, and regeneration. Why hasn't Xavier ever demonstrated these powers? Probably because he knows the dangers to mind and body when an Omega level mutant truly utilizes their full potetial...as Scarlet Witch and Magneto himself, for example, amply demonstrates.

Peace,
Syzygy

Xavier and Mags can be two of the most powerful without being Omegas. And Xavier IS NOT the most powerful telepath, since the 90's it's know that Nate Grey is more powerful than him (Xavier said it himself, i think), and of course, so is Cable, and is known that Jean is more powerful even without the Phoenix. Quentin Quire has also more raw power than him, and Rachel should be on the level of power of his brothers, or close. The "most powerful mind" title made sense in the 60's, 70's and 80's, when only the Shadow King was competition, but not now.

Franklin Richards and Mr. M are confirmed Omegas, and it's pretty safe to assume that Wanda is too.

[Barnaby]

so then lets get down to the nitty gritty...who is Omega level???(and still powered after m-day)

my picks

Magneto
Jean Grey
professor X
Cyclops
Havok
Storm
Iceman
Scarlet Witch
Apocalypse
Jamie Braddock

any ideas???

Well, in my opinion...

Magneto, probably is.
Jean Grey, is.
Professor X, probably is.
Cyclops, is not Omega, no question about that.
Havok, could be, but I think that's a stretch.
Storm, same as above
Iceman, is. Period.
Scarlet Witch ,more than probable.
Apocalypse, don't think so. Most of his powers and imortality comes from Celestial technology.
Jamie Braddock, probably.

[Syzygy]

Xavier and Mags can be two of the most powerful without being Omegas. And Xavier IS NOT the most powerful telepath, since the 90's it's know that Nate Grey is more powerful than him (Xavier said it himself, i think), and of course, so is Cable, and is known that Jean is more powerful even without the Phoenix. Quentin Quire has also more raw power than him, and Rachel should be on the level of power of his brothers, or close. The "most powerful mind" title made sense in the 60's, 70's and 80's, when only the Shadow King was competition, but not now.

Xavier has never unleashed his full potential because he understands the dangers that brings to mind and body both--a lesson Scarlet Witch and Magneto should have heeded.

If he ever did, he'd be equal to Cassandra Nova and Onslaught. And he'd probably become just as mentally unstable, too....

Peace,
Syzygy

[Loestal]

Xavier and Mags can be two of the most powerful without being Omegas. And Xavier IS NOT the most powerful telepath, since the 90's it's know that Nate Grey is more powerful than him (Xavier said it himself, i think), and of course, so is Cable, and is known that Jean is more powerful even without the Phoenix. Quentin Quire has also more raw power than him, and Rachel should be on the level of power of his brothers, or close. The "most powerful mind" title made sense in the 60's, 70's and 80's, when only the Shadow King was competition, but not now.

Franklin Richards and Mr. M are confirmed Omegas, and it's pretty safe to assume that Wanda is too.


Cable isn't the most powerful telepath, he WAS the most powerful telekenetic mind. X-man was more powerful than Xavier in all aspects, but unfocused and inexperienced. Plus, he technically isn't from our earth...so Xavier really is the most powerful telepath on earth.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I'd always understood that Maddie to be more of a psychic construct, rather than the original Maddie brought back though. Nate effectively created her, rather than resurrected her.

Rachel and Jean both resurrected themselves though after death (Jean twice actually if you count HCT). I wonder if we might ever see Nate again? Maybe as the new Phoenix? It'd be a nice counter to Ray as Marvel Girl.

That's the thing though. Nate did what he did off of his own willpower and not with Phoenix entity help.

[fishtaco]

Magneto's incredible power came with a terrible cost, as the magnetic waves that his body emits have been harmful to his brain, and in all probability influenced his violent and/or destructive decisions. This is implied in Classic X-Men #19 and X-Men (2nd Series) #2.

[jmc247]

Magneto's incredible power came with a terrible cost, as the magnetic waves that his body emits have been harmful to his brain, and in all probability influenced his violent and/or destructive decisions. This is implied in Classic X-Men #19 and X-Men (2nd Series) #2.

They said the same thing about Lorna's powers and both House of M and Avengers Dissembled said that Wanda's use of her powers has driven her slowly insane. Pietro has always had bouts of insaneity and the crystals Pietro is today huffing is doing wonders for his sanity.

[Omega Alpha]

All the Lehnsherrs are crazy, then. Actually, Magneto is the most normal of the family.

[Syzygy]

X-man was more powerful than Xavier in all aspects, but unfocused and inexperienced. Plus, he technically isn't from our earth...so Xavier really is the most powerful telepath on earth.

The first time Nate Grey and Xavier met in battle, it was implied that Nate was stronger, and Xavier retreated. Later, Xavier became Onslaught, defeated him, captured him, and added Nate's power to his own.

The price of Nate's overwhelming power was physical: the destitution it wrought upon his body. The price of Xavier realizing his overwhelming potential was mental: the insanity of a split personality. That other persona eventually "broke off" and became an independently existing psionic entity--but it was born of Xavier's power (albeit infested with the worst of Magneto's hatred).



Magneto nor Xavier are Omega mutants. The only mutants who have been confirm Omega are....

In Deadly Genesis #1 we have an official ranking of Xavier as “Omega level”.

Professor X is still missing, and Emma Frost is using Cerebra to scan for him. She encounters a mutagenic signature on a falling space shuttle that is so powerful, it knocks her out and shorts out Cerebra:



EMMA FROST: This one is off the charts, at least Omega level....

Soon after, Cyclops, Marvel Girl, and Wolverine get in the Blackbird to look for the mutant Emma sensed. Cyclops believes that it’s Xavier:



MARVEL GIRL: You really think there’s a chance that it’s the Proffesor, Scott?

CYCLOPS: ....If this isn’t him, I don’t know who else could be that powerful....

So it’s now official. Xavier is classified as an Omega level.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Tobias March]

Magneto nor Xavier are Omega mutants. The only mutants who have been confirm Omega are:



Mr. Immortal (GLX-Mas by Marvel Comics's Editors[|IGN])


Is Mr I really a mutant now? I always read that 'Homo Supreme', line as a joke. I mean he didn't have a natural ability to not die - that abstract of death, whose role Doorman inherited, was refusing to let him die.

Did the editors read Slott's comic?

[Titan76]

In Deadly Genesis #1 we have an official ranking of Xavier as “Omega level”.

Professor X is still missing, and Emma Frost is using Cerebra to scan for him. She encounters a mutagenic signature on a falling space shuttle that is so powerful, it knocks her out and shorts out Cerebra:



Soon after, Cyclops, Marvel Girl, and Wolverine get in the Blackbird to look for the mutant Emma sensed. Cyclops believes that it’s Xavier:



So it’s now official. Xavier is classified as an Omega level.

Peace,
Syzygy
Ugh, No. Xavier isn't Omega. Hell he is powerless right now. The person the X-men were tracking and that knock Emma was Vulcan who is the Omega they were tracking, not Xavier. Kind of hard to track Xavier when he doesn't have any powers.

[Titan76]

Is Mr I really a mutant now? I always read that 'Homo Supreme', line as a joke. I mean he didn't have a natural ability to not die - that abstract of death, whose role Doorman inherited, was refusing to let him die.

Did the editors read Slott's comic?
Really I don't know much about him but he has been listed with the other Omega mutants. Perhaps someone with vast knowledge of him can help with this.

[Barnaby]

Ugh, No. Xavier isn't Omega. Hell he is powerless right now. The person the X-men were tracking and that knock Emma was Vulcan who is the Omega they were tracking, not Xavier. Kind of hard to track Xavier when he doesn't have any powers.

The point there is that they didn't know that Xavier was powerless and they were investigating an Omega mutant that they thought was Xavier, so they know Xavier is Omega, if not, they would know that Omega mutant couldn't be Xavier for sure.

[Syzygy]

The point there is that they didn't know that Xavier was powerless and they were investigating an Omega mutant that they thought was Xavier, so they know Xavier is Omega, if not, they would know that Omega mutant couldn't be Xavier for sure.

Damn right, brother! :cool:

Peace,
Syzygy

[Titan76]

The point there is that they didn't know that Xavier was powerless and they were investigating an Omega mutant that they thought was Xavier, so they know Xavier is Omega, if not, they would know that Omega mutant couldn't be Xavier for sure.
For the last time Xavier isn't Omega, if he was I'm sure he would have said something when he told Iceman and Jean that they were Omega mutants.

As for Deadly Genesis, when Emma was tracking the Omega with Cerebra and it knocked her out she said nothing about Xavier. In fact she doesn't even mention his name. And the X-men didn't know for sure at first if the Omega they were tracking was Xavier. Rachel just ask Scott if there is a chance it could be the Prof. Scott said there might be. They never say that they are tracking Xavier because they know that mutant is Omega. Rachel just ask Scott if he thinks there is a chance that it might be Xavier and Scott said maybe. Once they got to the crash site they know that the Omega for sure wasn't Xavier.

I mainly take what Rachel was asking as false hope. They knew that the mutant wasn't Xavier but they were still hoping that it would be.

[Daithi]

For the last time Xavier isn't Omega, if he was I'm sure he would have said something when he told Iceman and Jean that they were Omega mutants.

Xavier didn't tell anyone they were Omega. Jean found out by accident.

[Barnaby]

The truth here is that we can only speculate about Xavier and Magneto's power level until Marvel takes an official stand about this issue.

I don't believe that the list of Omega mutants presented to us at the time mentions ALL the Omegas in the world. That was never said. With time other known mutants will be confirmed as Omega and i truly believe that Magneto and Xavier will be on that list. It makes perfect sense!

Cheers!

[Erik Lehnsherr]

The first time Nate Grey and Xavier met in battle, it was implied that Nate was stronger, and Xavier retreated. Later, Xavier became Onslaught, defeated him, captured him, and added Nate's power to his own.

The price of Nate's overwhelming power was physical: the destitution it wrought upon his body. The price of Xavier realizing his overwhelming potential was mental: the insanity of a split personality. That other persona eventually "broke off" and became an independently existing psionic entity--but it was born of Xavier's power (albeit infested with the worst of Magneto's hatred).


So it’s now official. Xavier is classified as an Omega level.

Peace,
Syzygy

Onslaught was a combination of Magneto and Xavier where he build his strength to damn near cosmic level on the astral plane before capturing Nate though. Xavier, by himself, has never beat Nate Grey in any form. Nate kind of punked Xavier out during the real confrontation without trying though. Just on defensive instinct.

[Mystique's Rogue]

Magneto nor Xavier are Omega mutants. The only mutants who have been confirm Omega are:


Elixir (New Mutants vol. 2 # 12 by Beast)
Iceman (X-Men: Forever)
Phoenix / Jean Grey (X-Men: Forever by Professor X, also known as the White Phoenix of the Crown.)
Mister M (The 198 Files)
Franklin Richards (The 198 Files)
Kid Omega (New X-Men #154 (appears as Phoenix host) and Phoenix Endsong #2 by various sources)
Rachel Summers (Uncanny X-Men #208 by Nimrod. Once also held the Phoenix)
Mr. Immortal (GLX-Mas by Marvel Comics's Editors[|IGN])
Vulcan

How come Jean is Omega and Professor X isn't? Isn't Xavier the most powerful telepath and Jean is only the second most powerful?

Iceman is Omega???!!!

[Frodo-X]

Iceman is Omega???!!!

They've long been using the idea that Iceman has the potential to be extremely powerful but is unwilling to admit it to himself.

So he could be Omega, if he ever wises up (hopefully soon).

[Gene M.]

They've long been using the idea that Iceman has the potential to be extremely powerful but is unwilling to admit it to himself.

So he could be Omega, if he ever wises up (hopefully soon).

Iceman is not f---king gay!

[Syzygy]

For the last time Xavier isn't Omega, if he was I'm sure he would have said something when he told Iceman and Jean that they were Omega mutants.

So, by your reckoning, Xavier isn't Omega level because, so far as you know, Xavier hasn't told Bobby and Jean that he is? But, consider:

1) Just because Xavier's has never told them on panel doesn't mean he's never told them at all. In the imaginary Marvel Universe, the characters do talk off panel....

2) Xavier doesn't tell his students everything. Is Xavier actually a man you'd consider to be totally above board? The guy has secrets upon secrets. Any argument that takes the form, "It's not the case, or Xavier would have told us about it," is automatically invalid.


As for Deadly Genesis, when Emma was tracking the Omega with Cerebra and it knocked her out she said nothing about Xavier. In fact she doesn't even mention his name. And the X-men didn't know for sure at first if the Omega they were tracking was Xavier. Rachel just ask Scott if there is a chance it could be the Prof. Scott said there might be. They never say that they are tracking Xavier because they know that mutant is Omega. Rachel just ask Scott if he thinks there is a chance that it might be Xavier and Scott said maybe.

Rachel says, "[Do] you really think there's a chance that it's the Professor, Scott?", implying that it was Scott that first raised the possibility, and Rachel is returning to the subject for the second time. (The key word here is "really", which indicates that Rachel is responding to something Scott said off-panel. It implies that Scott has already spoken on something, and Rachel wants to know if he "really" meant it.)

Scott doesn't answer "maybe". He's much more specific than that. He says "if this isn't him, I want to know who else could be that powerful." Scott suspects its Xavier specifically because Emma classified the signature as "off the charts...at least Omega level."

Again, Scott suspects that the Omega mutant that Emma sensed is Xavier. He wouldn't have formulated this hypothesis if he didn't also know that Xavier was an Omega. So, if Xavier wasn't classified as an Omega, Scott would have answered Rachel by saying, "No, it can't be Xavier, since Xavier's not that powerful. Xavier's not an Omega, and this signature was of an Omega."

The logic to understanding this is neither subtle nor difficult. Hence, Xavier's an Omega--and it's official.

I don't find your argument that Deadly Genesis #1 doesn't give him that rank either clear or logical.



Onslaught was a combination of Magneto and Xavier where he build his strength to damn near cosmic level on the astral plane before capturing Nate though. Xavier, by himself, has never beat Nate Grey in any form. Nate kind of punked Xavier out during the real confrontation without trying though. Just on defensive instinct.

Nate did win the first round of an unfinished battle when the two met. Xavier retreated.

Ultimately, Nate's great strength--and downfall--was that he used psionic power without consideration for the effect it had upon his body. Like a crazed animal, he never held back.

(There was also once a Magneto-clone, "Joeseph", which lacked some of Magneto's self-imposed "self-survival" limitations. As I recall, it unleashed more power than Mags, but soon died.)

Similarly, after absorbing some of Magneto's darkest thought patterns, Xavier developed a second personality--Onslaught--that was willing to unleash Xavier's full power. Onslaught came from Xavier's unleashed powers, fueled by Magneto's hate. As Onslaught, Xavier had no problems defeating Nate. But, yes, the implication was that Xavier couldn't beat Nate as himself, but only as this second, insane, unrestrained personality.

Technically, "Xavier" didn't beat Nate, but "Onslaught" did. From my reading, Onslaught was a warped, subpersonality of Xavier's, sort of like how Jeanne-Maire Beaubier formed a new personality, Aurora, to deal with the stress of her mutant powers. Whether or not such "subs" are ultimately the same person as their "generator" is either a matter of opinion, or an insoluble psychological mystery.

Syzygy

[Omega Alpha]

How come Jean is Omega and Professor X isn't? Isn't Xavier the most powerful telepath and Jean is only the second most powerful?


Iceman is Omega???!!!



No, even without the Phoenix Force Jean has more potential than he does (even if he is an Omega, like it is being discussed).

And, yes, Iceman is Omega.

[Gnarl]

The problem with this discussion is that we have no clear definition of what an Omega is.

And I am not sure there is one in the MU either.

Consider temperature. We've measured it for millennia, and agree that its scaled in degrees -but there are at least 3 separate scales of degrees.

There could be different definitions of Omega in the MU, even as they all agree that its measured on a greek letters scale.

(I alway got the impression that the original scale went upwards -delta, beta, alpha. And they tacked "Omega" on later when mutants beyond Alpha started showing up)

And for the record, I think of Magneto as an extremely high end Alpha, who can spike into Omega for periods, but not sustain himself there long, due to the cost to his body and mind.

[DDM]

Magneto is one of the most powerful mutants on record. He can manipulate other forms of energy besides magentism to even include telepathy; his powerful magnetism powers make his mind virtually impossible to read by other telepaths including Professor Xavier, Phoenix I (Jean Grey), Emma Frost, & Psylocke. Magneto altered the Earth's magnetic field to inhibit long rang telepathy so any telepath would encounter "psychic static." As a result, Xavier lost his precious psionic rapport with the X-Men since Uncanny X-Men #112-113. Psylocke had a difficult time reaching Storm in Uncanny X-Men #224 (Betsy did not talk telepathically with Ororo because, again, the Earth's psychic static got in the way). Magneto even regretted he altered the Earth's magnetic field when he was trying to contact Rachel Summers, Phoenix II, when she was in San Francisco, California to kill the omnipotent Beyonder to the X-Men's Westchester, New York location; the communication did not exist & Wolverine purposely needled Magneto for it, testing him in Uncanny X-Men #202.

I think terms like "Omega" to define any powerful mutant is just redundant. Virtually all of the X-Men & their foes are omega mutants.

[Mariah]

Magneto is one of the most powerful mutants on record. He can manipulate other forms of energy besides magentism to even include telepathy; his powerful magnetism powers make his mind virtually impossible to read by other telepaths including Professor Xavier, Phoenix I (Jean Grey), Emma Frost, & Psylocke. Magneto altered the Earth's magnetic field to inhibit long rang telepathy so any telepath would encounter "psychic static." As a result, Xavier lost his precious psionic rapport with the X-Men since Uncanny X-Men #112-113. Psylocke had a difficult time reaching Storm in Uncanny X-Men #224 (Betsy did not talk telepathically with Ororo because, again, the Earth's psychic static got in the way). Magneto even regretted he altered the Earth's magnetic field when he was trying to contact Rachel Summers, Phoenix II, when she was in San Francisco, California to kill the omnipotent Beyonder to the X-Men's Westchester, New York location; the communication did not exist & Wolverine purposely needled Magneto for it, testing him in Uncanny X-Men #202.

I think terms like "Omega" to define any powerful mutant is just redundant. Virtually all of the X-Men & their foes are omega mutants.
In order for him to alter the magnetic fields though, he had to use machinery to augment his powers. And he has on several occasions used tools to augment his powers. Plus, right now, he's a mutate, and not a mutant, since his x-gene was wiped out by his daughter.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

In order for him to alter the magnetic fields though, he had to use machinery to augment his powers. And he has on several occasions used tools to augment his powers. Plus, right now, he's a mutate, and not a mutant, since his x-gene was wiped out by his daughter.

That was just to extend his essence pass his physical form. He was the conduit for all of that magnetic energy and was controlling it. He has defeated Xavier soundly without issue. He has humilated Jean Grey and Iceman in the past, despite all of the talk of their "endless potential". He has humilated Thor and the Avengers. That's why Magneto is the most credible threat in X-history and all of this "Omega mutant" talk has never amounted to anything for those that have been listed as one.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

So, by your reckoning, Xavier isn't Omega level because, so far as you know, Xavier hasn't told Bobby and Jean that he is? But, consider:

1) Just because Xavier's has never told them on panel doesn't mean he's never told them at all. In the imaginary Marvel Universe, the characters do talk off panel....

2) Xavier doesn't tell his students everything. Is Xavier actually a man you'd consider to be totally above board? The guy has secrets upon secrets. Any argument that takes the form, "It's not the case, or Xavier would have told us about it," is automatically invalid.



Rachel says, "[Do] you really think there's a chance that it's the Professor, Scott?", implying that it was Scott that first raised the possibility, and Rachel is returning to the subject for the second time. (The key word here is "really", which indicates that Rachel is responding to something Scott said off-panel. It implies that Scott has already spoken on something, and Rachel wants to know if he "really" meant it.)

Scott doesn't answer "maybe". He's much more specific than that. He says "if this isn't him, I want to know who else could be that powerful." Scott suspects its Xavier specifically because Emma classified the signature as "off the charts...at least Omega level."

Again, Scott suspects that the Omega mutant that Emma sensed is Xavier. He wouldn't have formulated this hypothesis if he didn't also know that Xavier was an Omega. So, if Xavier wasn't classified as an Omega, Scott would have answered Rachel by saying, "No, it can't be Xavier, since Xavier's not that powerful. Xavier's not an Omega, and this signature was of an Omega."

The logic to understanding this is neither subtle nor difficult. Hence, Xavier's an Omega--and it's official.

I don't find your argument that Deadly Genesis #1 doesn't give him that rank either clear or logical.



Nate did win the first round of an unfinished battle when the two met. Xavier retreated.

Ultimately, Nate's great strength--and downfall--was that he used psionic power without consideration for the effect it had upon his body. Like a crazed animal, he never held back.

(There was also once a Magneto-clone, "Joeseph", which lacked some of Magneto's self-imposed "self-survival" limitations. As I recall, it unleashed more power than Mags, but soon died.)

Similarly, after absorbing some of Magneto's darkest thought patterns, Xavier developed a second personality--Onslaught--that was willing to unleash Xavier's full power. Onslaught came from Xavier's unleashed powers, fueled by Magneto's hate. As Onslaught, Xavier had no problems defeating Nate. But, yes, the implication was that Xavier couldn't beat Nate as himself, but only as this second, insane, unrestrained personality.

Technically, "Xavier" didn't beat Nate, but "Onslaught" did. From my reading, Onslaught was a warped, subpersonality of Xavier's, sort of like how Jeanne-Maire Beaubier formed a new personality, Aurora, to deal with the stress of her mutant powers. Whether or not such "subs" are ultimately the same person as their "generator" is either a matter of opinion, or an insoluble psychological mystery.

Syzygy

No, no, no...Onslaught had a combination of Xavier, Magneto, and Franklin Richards powers when he took Nate from Sinister's sanctem. He was afraid of fighting the boy by himself...that's why he made Nate and Cable priority #1 before the whole storyline kicked off(as mentioned in Cable #31). Xavier by himself has never hurt Nate on his own. Ever.

[Mariah]

That was just to extend his essence pass his physical form. He was the conduit for all of that magnetic energy and was controlling it. He has defeated Xavier soundly without issue. He has humilated Jean Grey and Iceman in the past, despite all of the talk of their "endless potential". He has humilated Thor and the Avengers. That's why Magneto is the most credible threat in X-history and all of this "Omega mutant" talk has never amounted to anything for those that have been listed as one.
In the issue where he tries to get Namor to join up by pimping out the Scarlet Witch, he also used Machinery. Plus, there's a difference between skill in your abilities, and potential. Just because you have the potential to be something, doesn't always mean you've reached said potential.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Exactly and that's why Iceman and all of these Omegas have not been the threat that a Scarlet Witch, Legion, Exodus, or Magneto have been in the past.

[DDM]

In order for him to alter the magnetic fields though, he had to use machinery to augment his powers. And he has on several occasions used tools to augment his powers. Plus, right now, he's a mutate, and not a mutant, since his x-gene was wiped out by his daughter.

No. Magneto altered the Earth's magnetic field all by himself with no artificial help; this happened in Uncanny X-Men #112-113 when Xavier realizes he lost his psionic rapport with the team. Magneto altered the Earth's magentic field slowly & steadily while he was fighting the X-Men in Uncanny X-Men #112 then afterwards in Uncanny X-Men #113.

When Magneto altered the Earth magnetic field, it has wide ranging ramifications which stretch beyond Uncanny X-Men #112-113: Since Xavier cannot contact his X-Men, he believes Jean's story that the X-Men are dead. As a result, he closes the school & leaves for the Shi'ar Galaxy. Phoenix goes on vacation in Greece to only run into a disguised Mastermind which sets in motion the Black Queen/Dark Phoenix storyline. Xavier & Phoenix still cannot read long range telepathy when the X-Men are reunited with each other in Uncanny X-Men #129. Xavier mentions he cannot re-establish his psionic rapport with the team in Uncanny X-Men #133. Yes, Magneto's altering the magnetic field has wide ranging, deep ramifications.

[Mariah]

^You just had to get me back because I knew the Falcon info, and you didn't. But in the Magneto War he did use machinery to alter the magnetic fields, and it seemed to burn him out, hence having a symbiotic relationship with Polaris.

[DDM]

^You just had to get me back because I knew the Falcon info, and you didn't. But in the Magneto War he did use machinery to alter the magnetic fields, and it seemed to burn him out, hence having a symbiotic relationship with Polaris.

Magneto tapped into the Earth's magnetic field directly in the Magneto War, something he killed Zaladane for. It's one of the reasons I don't like the story.

[Syzygy]

No, no, no...Onslaught had a combination of Xavier, Magneto, and Franklin Richards powers when he took Nate from Sinister's sanctem. He was afraid of fighting the boy by himself...that's why he made Nate and Cable priority #1 before the whole storyline kicked off(as mentioned in Cable #31). Xavier by himself has never hurt Nate on his own. Ever.

For me, Onslaught=Xavier. Since Onslaught beat Nate, Xavier beat Nate. Yes, he was afraid of Nate. But as I recall, Nate was afraid of Onslaught, too.

Onslaught was born of Xavier, as a facet of his personality and the ultimate embodiment of his powers turned bad.

We know that Xavier absorbed some "dark thoughts" from Magneto when he wiped Maggie's mind, and as a result, a subpersonality (split personality) formed within him. When it was said that Onslaught was a "combination" of Mags and Xavier, it was meant "Xavier's brain infested with Magneto's dark thoughts".

How these "dark thoughts" enabled Onslaught (Xavier) to duplicate some of Magneto's powers was never explained very well, but it appeared to have to do with Onslaught's ability to siphon or absorb other mutagenic signatures. Since Onslaught came from Xavier, Xavier himself may have such an ability as one of the "latent mutations" in his genome; Cassandra Nova became more powerful than Xavier by unleashing some of these powers in addition to telepathy.

Trapping Nate and Franklin in a mental dimension that renders them helpless and allows him to absorb and utilize their psionic powers counts as beating them, IMO. They were helpless, and it was Onslaught (i.e., Xavier) who had rendered them as such. It's been awhile, but if I recall correctly, they didn't break out absent outside help. What kind of mind must it take to contain psis like Nate and Franklin trapped inside your own mental dimension? If that doesn't count as "hurting" someone--if it doesn't count as beating someone--I'm not sure what does.

So it seems to me that Onslaught managed to beat Nate. I chalk it up as a win for Onslaught (Xavier) and a loss for Nate.

At the end, Onslaught metamorphosized into a nigh-omnipotent being. And it wasn't Nate and Franklin who beat Onslaught...it was the Hulk and the Avengers. All the mutants present--except for Scarlet Witch, but including Nate--dared not get too close to him or they would have their powers absorbed...which was why the non-mutant characters had to make the supreme sacrifice of diving inside of him to defeat him.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Syzygy]

And for the record, I think of Magneto as an extremely high end Alpha, who can spike into Omega for periods, but not sustain himself there long, due to the cost to his body and mind.

It appears to be the case that many Omega's are unable to sustain the strain of using that level of power. Xavier, Wanda, Magneto, Proteus, and Nate have all had problems of mind or body due their power's cost. Vulcan isn't doing to well, either, killing one hundred people just to "flush out" Xavier--a little psychotic, no?

Absolom Mercator was a mentally tormented individual who, for a time, believed it was his destiny to destroy Mutant Town in a nuclear explosion.

Meanwhile, I think it's a pretty easy call that, whatever "Omega" means, it signifies the very upper tier of mutant power, and that Magneto occupies it. Eventually, after Maggie starts using his powers again, we'll hear him "formally" referred to as an Omega. I think it's pretty much a slamdunk.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Syzygy]

No, even without the Phoenix Force Jean has more potential than he does (even if he is an Omega, like it is being discussed).

So far as I am aware, this isn't the case telepathically. Without the Phoenix she's a weaker telepath than Xavier. This has always been how she's depicted. I don't know where you're getting this reading from. The comic Jean Grey is not the movie Jean Grey.

Same with Rachel Summers. Once when Xavier's powers were on the wane, Rachel couldn't get even a thought from him. Sans Phoenix, both Jean and Rachel have always been depicted as weaker than Xavier.

A case can be made for the deceased Nate Grey and Legion (David Haller), but not the other two.

What canon can you point to that proves your point--or at least argues it?

I still can't believe we're debating this. The only reason Xavier and Magneto weren't listed as Omega's in the ONE: The 198 Handbook is because they're currently depowered. Therefore, the ONE didn't give them a listing.

Since at least the Claremont days--and probably earlier--it's been clear that both of these two men occupy the very upper tier of mutant power. However defined, that upper tier is the Omega level.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Daithi]

Same with Rachel Summers. Once when Xavier's powers were on the wane, Rachel couldn't get even a thought from him. Sans Phoenix, both Jean and Rachel have always been depicted as weaker than Xavier.

Xavier has impressive psi-shields himself. Rachel can't read Sage either but that doesn't mean anything. Also Emma is a more skilled telepath than Rachel but Rachel is more powerful. Besides Rachel was able to hide herself from Professor Xavier using telepathy and could generate psi-bolts as powerful as him also sans Phoenix.

Anyway Rachel and Jean's telepathy were always secondary to their TK. That's what puts them above Xavier in terms of power.