Hawkeye MAX: Would you buy it?

[sherlockbones]

spawning from the "top 50 avengers" thread i was thinking about how awesome a hawkeye:max title would be. what do you think of such a concept? stupid/awesome? what do you expect of such a title and what stories would you want them place clint into? my first idea was placing clint as a commander of a united nations peace keeping force in africa.

villans:
arms dealer, mining companies, warlords, kid soldiers, corrupt politicians, terrorists

there is alot of directions you can go with such a setup considering what a violent place africa can be. or has something like this been down allready?

so what do you think?

[drwho]

My only demand would be he would have to wear his costume. I think that is what partially killed his series because he didnt wear the costume. He was like some guy riding a motorcycle and carrying bow.:evilangry

[Pwood]

My only demand would be he would have to wear his costume. I think that is what partially killed his series because he didnt wear the costume. He was like some guy riding a motorcycle and carrying bow.:evilangry

I agree. The costume is classic...

And the answer to the original question...yes...I mean...it's Hawkeye...

[Slumber Hulk]

I love Hawkeye and would probably but I voted no. I think he needs to be part of an ensamble.

[Mo S.]

I wouldn't mind a miniseries - but I think for the character to be in a successful "solo" series the writer needs to pay close attention to what makes the character popular in the first place. Nicieza had some of it going in his series - the heart, the stubborness, the mouth, the often-overblown ego (or what looks like it, anyway), but the series was missing someone (or someones) for Hawkeye to interact with.

[sherlockbones]

My only demand would be he would have to wear his costume. I think that is what partially killed his series because he didnt wear the costume. He was like some guy riding a motorcycle and carrying bow.:evilangry

yeah that is pretty cliche and has been done a thousand times with street-level heros. next would be fighting drug lords in colombia, too much rambo2.
that is why i thought of this un scenario. fits very good today´s global politics and you would have a lot of ambiguous challenges.

i could live with his costume being modified kinda like the 90´s avengers leather jackets, featuring some un logo and some military gear in camp life. for covert ops they could use the costume

[glue]

My only demand would be he would have to wear his costume.


Agreed. As for whether or not I'd buy it, I'm not sure. There's really nobody at Marvel right now that would make me buy a series and Hawkeye isn't among my favorite characters. I'd have to see it first.

[The Mirrorball Man]

My only demand would be he would have to wear his costume. I think that is what partially killed his series because he didnt wear the costume. He was like some guy riding a motorcycle and carrying bow.:evilangry
Yeah, who needs a guy on a motorcycle when you can have a real hero who's not afraid to wear a pink costume with a butterfly mask and a deliciously ambiguous "H" on the forehead?

[Alan2099]

Why a MAX series?

I see absolutley no reason Hawkeye would benifit from lots of gore, sex, or cussing. He's a basic straight up super hero. If you're going to do anything with the guy it really needs to be basic hero stuff.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Hawkeye MAX?
That's just WRONG.
Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

[Jake V]

Why a MAX series?

I see absolutley no reason Hawkeye would benifit from lots of gore, sex, or cussing. He's a basic straight up super hero. If you're going to do anything with the guy it really needs to be basic hero stuff.
Seriously. Hawkeye isn't a guy who lends himself to adult situations or really anything risque at all. While he isn't as straight laced as Cap, he really IS the cool guy/smartass/rebel archetype, and such a chararacter is meant to appeal to ALL audiences.

A Hawkeye solo series (if handeled well) could be really good, but he's no Punisher.

[sherlockbones]

Why a MAX series?

I see absolutley no reason Hawkeye would benifit from lots of gore, sex, or cussing. He's a basic straight up super hero. If you're going to do anything with the guy it really needs to be basic hero stuff.

that is not what i intended to imply. i thought of it as a more adult, serious title still based in the original MU. some old nick fury graphic novels have this reality feeling, and the point that hawkeye definitly is not a killer (egghead, mockingbird quarrel) would set it apart from punisher. no shot to kill, but nevertheless tough decsions

[sherlockbones]

Seriously. Hawkeye isn't a guy who lends himself to adult situations or really anything risque at all. While he isn't as straight laced as Cap, he really IS the cool guy/smartass/rebel archetype, and such a chararacter is meant to appeal to ALL audiences.

A Hawkeye solo series (if handeled well) could be really good, but he's no Punisher.

he was killed by a good friend. this may bring him down to earth, away from the reckless cool guy/smartass and advance his character

[Jake V]

that is not what i intended to imply. i thought of it as a more adult, serious title still based in the original MU. some old nick fury graphic novels have this reality feeling, and the point set hawkeye definitly is not a killer (egghead, mockingbird quarrel) would set it apart from punisher. no shot to kill, but tough nevertheless decsions
Those sorts of stories are completely possible in an all ages setting.

[The Mirrorball Man]

that is not what i intended to imply. i thought of it as a more adult, serious title still based in the original MU. some old nick fury graphic novels have this reality feeling, and the point that hawkeye definitly is not a killer (egghead, mockingbird quarrel) would set it apart from punisher. no shot to kill, but tough nevertheless decsions
I think that would be a problem, actually. The whole "I don't have any powers, I just have a bow, and I don't shoot to kill" works well in a superhero universe that is somehow disconnected from reality, but in a more realistic environment, I think it would stretch our suspension of disbelief a little too much.

[Reptisaurus!]

Max? Nah. Hawkeye should be rooted in reality, but his stories need to be a little bit goofy, too. I really liked the first Hawkeye mini.

So unless you get, like, Alan Moore and Harvey Kurtzman or another creative team awesome enough to overcome my total lack of interest, I'd pass.

Wouldn't mind another ongoing, though.

[glue]

I didn't even see that it was MAX. As a rule I don't give MAX stuff a chance. So, no, I wouldn't buy the series.

[sherlockbones]

that is why i think a peace keeping command would work so well. he may need time off from the superheroing and it still could feature his command skills as well as his sneakier combat approaches. un missions mostly deal with guerrillia warfare. they could bust arms supply routes, save people from slavery(boat people), uncover election fraud etc.

[Ryan Day]

that is not what i intended to imply. i thought of it as a more adult, serious title still based in the original MU.

You want an adult and serious title about a guy who fights crime with a bow and arrow? And wears a bright purple costume? You'd need a reeeeeally good writer to pull that off. And I think most really good writers would laugh at the very suggestion.

There are very few superheroes that stand up to any sort of real world examination. Hawkeye definitely isn't one of them.

[sherlockbones]

You want an adult and serious title about a guy who fights crime with a bow and arrow? And wears a bright purple costume? You'd need a reeeeeally good writer to pull that off. And I think most really good writers would laugh at the very suggestion.

There are very few superheroes that stand up to any sort of real world examination. Hawkeye definitely isn't one of them.

you make me quote myself



i could live with his costume being modified kinda like the 90´s avengers leather jackets, featuring some un logo and some military gear in camp life. for covert ops they could use the costume

is it bright purple? i think the tone is adaptable so it doesn´t look ridicilous in a more serious book

[Alan2099]

that is why i think a peace keeping command would work so well. he may need time off from the superheroing and it still could feature his command skills as well as his sneakier combat approaches. un missions mostly deal with guerrillia warfare. they could bust arms supply routes, save people from slavery(boat people), uncover election fraud etc.
So you want a series that highlights just about everything that people aren't looking for when they pick up a story with Hawkeye in it?

Why not just make a new character?

[sherlockbones]

because i think it would work with hawkeye. heck seems like i gotta write it myself :D

[Jake V]

So you want a series that highlights just about everything that people aren't looking for when they pick up a story with Hawkeye in it?

Why not just make a new character?
Maybe him and no one else. It were those exact reasons that the last Hawkeye series only lasted 8 issues. Stick Hawkeye in his purple costume and have him beating up supervillains and you've got 24 issues at the very least.

[sherlockbones]

yeah doing the same old concepts over and over again would be such a success. sad thing is you maybe right

[Alan2099]

See, that's the thing. There are certain aspects people expect to see when they read about any character.

You start taking those things away and the readers leave.

[Jake V]

yeah doing the same old concepts over and over again would be such a success. sad thing is you maybe right
There's no maybe to it. The X-Men have been doing basically the same thing for the last 30 years and have been quite successful at it.

Hawkeye IS a fun loving semi-rebel superhero dressed almost entirely in purple who beats up equally colorful bad guys. He isn't a gritty SHIELD or government agent that kills terrorists and other real world bad guys.

You don't put Hawkeye in that setting for the same reasons you don't cast Daredevil as a firefighter. It's just not who the character is.

[Mo S.]

There's no maybe to it. The X-Men have been doing basically the same thing for the last 30 years and have been quite successful at it.

Hawkeye IS a fun loving semi-rebel superhero dressed almost entirely in purple who beats up equally colorful bad guys. He isn't a gritty SHIELD or government agent that kills terrorists and other real world bad guys.

You don't put Hawkeye in that setting for the same reasons you don't cast Daredevil as a firefighter. It's just not who the character is.

Works pretty well for the Ultimates version. I do miss the smartass part of the character in Ultimates, though

[Subotai]

I'd buy a Max run if they could show him grow the **** up a little. He wouldn't have to lose that rebellious character, just develop as a person a bit. But it would need good writers.

[Jake V]

Works pretty well for the Ultimates version. I do miss the smartass part of the character in Ultimates, though
The Ultimates isn't a MAX title.

[sherlockbones]

There's no maybe to it. The X-Men have been doing basically the same thing for the last 30 years and have been quite successful at it.

Hawkeye IS a fun loving semi-rebel superhero dressed almost entirely in purple who beats up equally colorful bad guys. He isn't a gritty SHIELD or government agent that kills terrorists and other real world bad guys.

You don't put Hawkeye in that setting for the same reasons you don't cast Daredevil as a firefighter. It's just not who the character is.

funny thing mentioning the x-men. you are aware of ultimate x-men? the ultimate series works on the demand for different stories based on a more real life approach? so there IS a market

if you don´t like character development, stick to your colorful superheros/villains.

in on of my former post i stated that it out of characters for hawkeye to kill. that´s why it would be interesting placing him against kid soldiers or into a genocide scenario. it would not be plain and simple bash the bad guy and go celebrate.

and if this is ooc for you again, i also posted that "finding-yourself" period is not so far stretched after being raised from the dead

[drwho]

funny thing mentioning the x-men. you are aware of ultimate x-men? the ultimate series works on the demand for different stories based on a more real life approach? so there IS a market

if you don´t like character development, stick to your colorful superheros/villains.

in on of my former post i stated that it out of characters for hawkeye to kill. that´s why it would be interesting placing him against kid soldiers or into a genocide scenario. it would not be plain and simple bash the bad guy and go celebrate.

and if this is ooc for you again, i also posted that "finding-yourself" period is not so far stretched after being raised from the dead

Did you happen to read the last Hawkeye series because no way in my opinion was it a traditional take on him? If you didn't read it you may like it.

[sherlockbones]

thx for the info, i think my last hawkeye mini is from 93 or something. what is it name and publishing date?

[Mo S.]

The Ultimates isn't a MAX title.

Thank you, I was aware of that. The definition of "MAX" has been moving around a bit over time, to be anything from involving higher levels of violence, to more risque situations to out-of-continuity or all of the above.

The Ultimates title has often struck me as "MAX" worthy, which is why it carries the "Parental Advisory" label, and doesn't seem much different from "Explicit Content" titles.

I'm not particularly concerned about the potential for or against a MAX rating for a proposed series in this thread, I was simply going on series description.

[Mo S.]

thx for the info, i think my last hawkeye mini is from 93 or something. what is it name and publishing date?

It's eight issues, by Fabian Nicieza, and came out in 2003/2004, I believe. Here is a link to the covers on Milehigh Comics:
http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=list&title=39057699777&snumber=1

[drwho]

I liked the series but they made it stray too far think from what made hawkeye who he was and turned him into this guy that deals with mobsters and doesnt even put on his costume. He basically road around on a motorcycle with a bow.

[sherlockbones]

thx!
ohh fabian, i hate his x-books/new warriors+plus he was one of the vultures on the vailant universe corpse...not sure if i ll give it a try

[trickster]

Just curious. What's so fascinating about Hawkeye? Being an archer he's about as lame as you can get. I mean, you take away his arrows, you take away his usefulness. Not to mention he's no match for someone with a gun.

[sherlockbones]

i think i am robin hood conditioned. my favourite characters in shooter´s vailant universe were called archer&armstrong > there you go.

read the first 50 issues of wca. clint is the man


Just curious. What's so fascinating about Hawkeye? Being an archer he's about as lame as you can get. I mean, you take away his arrows, you take away his usefulness. Not to mention he's no match for someone with a gun.

your point of view. you could argue that way about every character in comic book history

[FanboyStranger]

Just curious. What's so fascinating about Hawkeye? Being an archer he's about as lame as you can get. I mean, you take away his arrows, you take away his usefulness. Not to mention he's no match for someone with a gun.

See, that's not what makes Hawkeye interesting. It's his character-- his stubborn determination, his resourcefulness, his unwillingness to back down despite any odds, and his sense of humor through it all. If Peter Parker is the "everyman" of Marvel Comics, Clint Barton is the guy you want as your best friend. Yeah, he can be a pain-in-the-ass every now and then, but he'll still behind you to the very end and make you laugh while doing it. And he has the biggest pair of any Marvel hero-- he conned the Grandmaster with an old carny trick with the end of the universe at stake. ("Cap, I cheated.") Even in jLA/Avengers, it's Hawkeye with one of his dumb trick arrows who takes down Krona while Barry Allen stands there with a big grin on his face.

[Shellhead]

The best Marvel could hope for with this MAX Hawkeye idea would be inevitable comparisons with DC's Green Arrow. It's not just that they're both archers, but that DC has already been doing mature content and "realistic" stories with Green Arrow for twenty years now.

Hawkeye is Clint Barton, not Oliver Queen, and he works best in superhero team action books like Avengers and Thunderbolts. Fabian definitely understands Hawkeye, but it was a mistake to force him into a "realistic" solo title, and repeating that mistake just a few years later still won't lead to success.

[Mo S.]

thx!
ohh fabian, i hate his x-books/new warriors+plus he was one of the vultures on the vailant universe corpse...not sure if i ll give it a try

There was also a strange little "second story" crossover in War Machine, Force Works and something else (Marvel Presents, maybe?) that's somewhat along the lines of your proposal.

After Mockingbird's death, Hawkeye pretty much vanishes. He's upset over her death, and you sort of infer he also feels very guilty about it - he's the one who wanted to be an Avenger and a West Coast Avengers leader at that, Mockingbird would have been happy NOT being an Avenger. (Right before her death she'd gone from active to reserve status.)

Of all the people you wouldn't think it of, US Agent decides Hawkeye's been gone too long brooding, and goes to track him down, intending to drag him back, either to the Avengers or to Force Works. Hawkeye has sort of the last laugh and escapes from USAgent, after admitting that he does need to stop brooding and get back to life in general. (This story was in Marvel Presents or some similar title - multiple story format.)

The next time we see him is in, I think, War Machine. He's gotten involved with a rebel group in South America, and he's trying to help them fight your basic Evil Overlord. Rhodey, on the other hand, has been recruited to stop the rebel group. Eventually both Hawkeye and Rhodey realize they've been duped and neither side is clean.

Right after this, Hawkeye gets one of those hideous 90s costume redesigns (not that his - thankfully brief - 70s aerobics-instructor one was better), and The Crossing storyline starts, with Tony Stark setting Hawkeye up as a murderer. From there we go into Heroes Reborn and need our brains cleaned with a cloth.

[TimmyTony]

Hawkeye can't carry a series.

Sure, his alleged "tons" of fans are very vocal online, but it has been proven time and time again that online buzz, no matter how deafening, more often than not, does not equate an actual sales hit. (Serenity, Snakes On A Plane, The Thing by Slott, She-hulk, the last Hawkeye solo comic, etc)


In any case, no, I wouldn't buy a book starring Hawkeye.

[TimmyTony]

See, that's not what makes Hawkeye interesting. It's his character-- his stubborn determination, his resourcefulness, his unwillingness to back down despite any odds, and his sense of humor through it all. If Peter Parker is the "everyman" of Marvel Comics, Clint Barton is the guy you want as your best friend. Yeah, he can be a pain-in-the-ass every now and then, but he'll still behind you to the very end and make you laugh while doing it. And he has the biggest pair of any Marvel hero-- he conned the Grandmaster with an old carny trick with the end of the universe at stake. ("Cap, I cheated.") Even in jLA/Avengers, it's Hawkeye with one of his dumb trick arrows who takes down Krona while Barry Allen stands there with a big grin on his face.


Take away the arrows and bow, the costume,the name, add a rocky hide, an extended family of blue-clad adventuresrs and you have The Thing.
I don't see anything special about the description you just gave...Ben Grimm also fits that profile...

[Shellhead]

Take away the arrows and bow, the costume,the name, add a rocky hide, an extended family of blue-clad adventuresrs and you have The Thing.
I don't see anything special about the description you just gave...Ben Grimm also fits that profile...

Hawkeye and the Thing are more special when placed in their historical context. Unlike most of their fellow silver age superheroes, Ben and Clint had actual personalities. Your typical silver age superhero was more of a cliched inventory of heroic qualities than an actual character.

[Kirk G]

Hawkeye can't carry a series.

Sure, his alleged "tons" of fans are very vocal online, but it has been proven time and time again that online buzz, no matter how deafening, more often than not, does not equate an actual sales hit. (Serenity, Snakes On A Plane, The Thing by Slott, She-hulk, the last Hawkeye solo comic, etc)


In any case, no, I wouldn't buy a book starring Hawkeye.
What about that first Hawkeye mini series... you know, the one where he lost his hearing (at least until Franklin got ahold of him) and wound up in the hottub with Mockingbird in the end? That sold, and well!:eek:

[sherlockbones]

Take away the arrows and bow, the costume,the name, add a rocky hide, an extended family of blue-clad adventuresrs and you have The Thing.
I don't see anything special about the description you just gave...Ben Grimm also fits that profile...

lol, that is why i posted that i´d like the both together in a team book again over in the avengers dream team roster thread.

now your point was something completly different :confused:

you mean: ben is not special? :eek:

[StoneGold]

What about that first Hawkeye mini series... you know, the one where he lost his hearing (at least until Franklin got ahold of him) and wound up in the hottub with Mockingbird in the end? That sold, and well!:eek:
A: Do you have any evidence that it actually sold well? In comparison to other comics? B: And what worked 20 years ago of course will work today!

[CyberCoyote]

I voted no. I think the book would be good, but I wouldn't get it because of the Max title. Too many opportunities for really cheap and debase situations from the line that brought us 'Luke Cage likes to do it Greek' (I heard this, if it's not so I stand pre-corrected)

In 12 issues there'd be 50 or more villains who have proctologists on Speed Dial because of well placed arrows..

[Mo S.]

Just curious. What's so fascinating about Hawkeye? Being an archer he's about as lame as you can get. I mean, you take away his arrows, you take away his usefulness. Not to mention he's no match for someone with a gun.

Take away any Marvel character's power, and what have you got? What's the difference between a mutant with "inner" powers and Hawkeye's "exterior" training and skill? Not much, really. We've seen plenty of plotlines where a mutant's powers have been surpressed and made useless, and that's pretty much the same thing. Once you start trying to argue which one is more "realistic" you're on really shaky ground.

[FanboyStranger]

Take away the arrows and bow, the costume,the name, add a rocky hide, an extended family of blue-clad adventuresrs and you have The Thing.
I don't see anything special about the description you just gave...Ben Grimm also fits that profile...

Exactly, except the Thing has the incredible strength and the rocky skin. He knows he can walk away from going toe-to-toe with the Hulk. Hawkeye knows that he can't, yet he does it anyway. He does it because his friends or innocent civilians are in trouble, he doesn't shy away from it because all he has is a bow and some arrows against a force of nature, and he uses the resources at his disposal-- generally his mental resources and courage-- to find a way to pull victory from a certain defeat.

That's what makes him great.

[SabrinaMorrell]

Too bad he wears comic books' least manly color scheme...hardly something to make criminals feel awe and fear...

[Haunt]

Too bad he wears comic books' least manly color scheme...hardly something to make criminals feel awe and fear...

purple is the color of royalty. Hulk's pants are purple. and plenty of supervillains wear purple. they obviously aren't worried about not striking fear and awe into everyone they encounter.

[TimmyTony]

purple is the color of royalty. Hulk's pants are purple. and plenty of supervillains wear purple. they obviously aren't worried about not striking fear and awe into everyone they encounter.


Hulk's appearance and demeanor alone would make anyone cream their pants...even if he wore pink pants with yellow polka dots on them, on the other hand, an Errol Flynn lookalike in a lavender/electric blue/purple getup would ellicit laughs...and a few catcallls, I bet.

[phantom1592]

I would vote no on any max title. I think realistic/down to earth stories would actually HURT Hawkeye. The flashy costume, the bigger than life stories. Hawkeye is just a man with a bow, but he fights alongside Captain America and Thor against Aliens. Its his .... unworthiness (?!?!) that makes him so cool. He NEEDS the silly weapons, and the costume. He even needs that sky cycle he rides around on. He's the kind of guy that would walk up to Mephisto and LIE to his face! Drug dealers and crime lords aren't for him.

I would hate to see him get dark and broody and become a punisher-lite.

Now something along the lines of that one shot vs the Taskmaster with Justic and Firestar. I'd buy that! But no MAX. They're just an excuse to throw in pointless cussin and nudity.

[mattbib]

I would hate to see him get dark and broody and become a punisher-lite.Too late...

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/76171894092.36.GIF

[Mo S.]

Lol, the best thing I can say about the various costumes Hawkeye has had over the years is that eventually they give up on the revamps and go back to the original one or just slight variations of the original one.

The 70s aerobics instructor thing was probably the worst but the just-slightly pre-Crossing one wasn't any better. The Heroes Reborn "study in brown" was pretty funky, too. I like the tunic-thing, even though it's not particularly modern. Didn't care for the House of M redesign with all the ski-boot buckles and the semi-puffy fabric. The H on his head has always seemed a bit unnecessary to me.

Cronin was wandering around here the other day, taking a break from being snark-free, and he had an entire post on the topic:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/06/18/top-five-worst-hawkeye-costumes/

[Eric_Carnaby]

lol!

"Top five worst Hawkeye costumes"

Redundantly redundant anyone?

[Frank]

I think a MAX Hawkeye could work but not if he fights arm dealers and all the things that other characters should do. That's why Greg Rucka's Wolverine missed the point in my opinion because it went too down to Earth and it basically became "The Punisher with Claws". Also having a gritty Hawkeye book would tend to make him overly serious as character so no places for his one-liners and his snarky attitude that people like so much.

I say a MAX title with Hawkeye could work but keep the costumed villains and make them ultra nasty and creepy and original. Using old school imagination in a sick manner. Like "what if Silver Age Flash was written by Garth Ennis". Captain Boomerang obligaterate Japan! lol

[Haunt]

I think a MAX Hawkeye could work but not if he fights arm dealers and all the things that other characters should do. That's why Greg Rucka's Wolverine missed the point in my opinion because it went too down to Earth and it basically became "The Punisher with Claws". Also having a gritty Hawkeye book would tend to make him overly serious as character so no places for his one-liners and his snarky attitude that people like so much.

I say a MAX title with Hawkeye could work but keep the costumed villains and make them ultra nasty and creepy and original. Using old school imagination in a sick manner. Like "what if Silver Age Flash was written by Garth Ennis". Captain Boomerang obligaterate Japan! lol


the Marvel Knights line seems more appropriate. they could have gone the same route as with the upcoming Iron Fist title.

[phantom1592]

the Marvel Knights line seems more appropriate. they could have gone the same route as with the upcoming Iron Fist title.


I would accept a MK line a lot easier than I would a MAX.