Why are so many titles late?

[stealthwise]

Don't tell me it's always because of quality. Not every book is an Alan Moore title (ie Watchmen) or an Ultimates. I dig Green Lantern, but there's no way that it should take as long as it does to come out.

I'm thinking that we're heading towards a bi-monthly model, and I'm not a fan of that. I'd rather have books come out on time, or hell, come out with fill-in stories that deal with the supporting characters and/or setting (ala Times Past on Starman), rather than wait and wait and wait.

I cancelled Civil War and am basically avoiding the majority of Marvel's output for this reason. The quality's just not there to justify it every time.

What's the solution though? Personally I'm either switching to trades, or sticking to books that will stay on track 90% of the time. What do you do though if you want to keep reading, but are getting frustrated by the delays? I'm thinking that more lead time is one solution, though getting either of the big two to enforce that seems impossible at this point.

[Cayman]

I only care that the book is good when it comes out. I hate crappy fill-ins.

[heystacy]

Some of them needed to be late. i remember when i dropped Teen Titans. The stories were bland. I head it got much better after IC, but I am not impressed. I paid good money for those books. i wanted to have a great reading experience.

Likewise I remember when New X-Men was late. I waited, and in hindsight, I should not have. Time is money, and I understand, after studying graphic design, for a couple of years that when you miss a deadline, you're fired.

Why support books I expect each month, when they are put into rotation too early, or peeps can't make the grade?

[Alex Dragon]

I only care that the book is good when it comes out. I hate crappy fill-ins.

Thank you. That needed to be said. I agree with you 100%. Of course when it comes to this subject you're going to get a lot of "Yeah, I want good books too, but..." comments.

[shrike]

According to Geoff Johns, books are late because right now QUALITY is important.

... like, uhm... the oooh so high quality of, uhm...


hm.

let me get back to that one.

[Kevinroc]

To annoy fanboys so they can whine on messageboards. :p

[TomStillwell]

Global warming.

I can tell you Honor Brigade #3 is late because my artist hurt his leg and can't sit for long periods of time. That's one book down with a decent reason.

[TCJohnson]

The reason why so many books are getting late is because editors are getting are shying away from fill in artists.

[Azrael52]

*Looks at title of thread*

Um . . . because . . . they didn't use protection?

[NickThompson]

Less fill-in artists, issues from the drawer or reprints, I guess.

[stealthwise]

Is it really unreasonable to expect them to be able to get a good fill-in artist with a solid story? It can't be that tough can it? I mean, I could understand if, like, a creator-owned book like Y or Fables shipped late and they didn't want to disrupt the flow of the story by using a fill-in but... those books actually ship on time (or pretty damned close) every time.

Is a three month lead time on most books going to kill the revenue flow? I mean, it's not a guarantee that the title will ship on time in the long run (Ultimates), but it's still going to give them some breathing room, or at least the ability to scramble enough to have a decent fill-in. And there's NO way that a mini-series like Civil War, which is tied into nearly every single Marvel universe title, should be allowed to ship as late as it did. And don't get me started on Kevin Smith's Black Ca....

Yeah, I know, I'm just repeating the complaints of the past few years, but those things BEAR repeating. Just because you've heard it before doesn't mean that it should be ignored, because it's still a problem. If you don't mind waiting then great, that's your solution, but what about everyone else, what's your take on this? Do you sit and take it and grumble, or do you change your buying habits, or complain to Marvel and DC, or both or neither or what?

[The Xenos]

Well the reason we get monthly comics is so that we have the last issue somewhat fresh in our heads. Being months to almost bi-yearly? That just kills the story.

At that rate, they might as well have released the book as a trade, pretty much an actual graphic novel. I definately see that as working out for many of these mini-series or even story arcs that get crammed into regular series. I know, many say graphic novels and such don't sell. Yet late books are terrible.

Plus people used to say manga didn't sell. Now the damn things are outselling top comics. I think the fear of leaving monthlies behind save for the books that really can ship monthly is really hurting the industry. It's trying to get blood from a stone instead of looking at the juicy animals around it. Mmm.. blood.

At the same time, if you're new talent, a publisher may not want to risk a whole graphic novel on your. Then individual issues to test out new talent makes sense. So, honestly, that is a problem with my idea.

[heystacy]

*Looks at title of thread*

Um . . . because . . . they didn't use protection?


Thank God I gave up lattes for the rest of the week. I could have choked reading this. ;)

[heystacy]

Is it really unreasonable to expect them to be able to get a good fill-in artist with a solid story? It can't be that tough can it? I mean, I could understand if, like, a creator-owned book like Y or Fables shipped late and they didn't want to disrupt the flow of the story by using a fill-in but... those books actually ship on time (or pretty damned close) every time.

Is a three month lead time on most books going to kill the revenue flow? I mean, it's not a guarantee that the title will ship on time in the long run (Ultimates), but it's still going to give them some breathing room, or at least the ability to scramble enough to have a decent fill-in. And there's NO way that a mini-series like Civil War, which is tied into nearly every single Marvel universe title, should be allowed to ship as late as it did. And don't get me started on Kevin Smith's Black Ca....

Yeah, I know, I'm just repeating the complaints of the past few years, but those things BEAR repeating. Just because you've heard it before doesn't mean that it should be ignored, because it's still a problem. If you don't mind waiting then great, that's your solution, but what about everyone else, what's your take on this? Do you sit and take it and grumble, or do you change your buying habits, or complain to Marvel and DC, or both or neither or what?

I haven't been reading Civil War, but I understand the delay is causing several other titles to be delayed as well (as to not spoil the CW story). Does anybody know for sure?

That being said, I love comics, enjoy reading them, the delays have been awful in the past.

The bottom line is for the editors to maintian the flow and timing of the comics being produced. I get the feeling that launching certain books takes priority over how quickly the hired creative team can produce said summer blockbuster.

[Kevinroc]

I haven't been reading Civil War, but I understand the delay is causing several other titles to be delayed as well (as to not spoil the CW story). Does anybody know for sure?

That being said, I love comics, enjoy reading them, the delays have been awful in the past.

The bottom line is for the editors to maintian the flow and timing of the comics being produced. I get the feeling that launching certain books takes priority over how quickly the hired creative team can produce said summer blockbuster.

Yes, it's known for sure that Marvel delayed several tie-in comics so as not to spoil Civil War. Books like Frontline, Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four (as well as several other books) were delayed so as not to spoil the main mini-series.

The delays do make one question how important we should view just one story. Frankly, Stealthwise always seemed to be looking for any reason to drop the crossover and seems grateful he can use the delay as an excuse. But maybe I'm reading things the wrong way.

[NickThompson]

I haven't been reading Civil War, but I understand the delay is causing several other titles to be delayed as well (as to not spoil the CW story). Does anybody know for sure?

This is correct. Not all CW tie-ins though, just the ones that would spoil events in the main comic.

[MartinRedmond]

Greg Land does the exact same thing as Hitch and he is always on time. Hitch should be faster, cause he is still drawing the same stock Alan Davis faces he's always drawn. Alan Moore's work requires a lot of research but Watchmen shipped on time. It's just that they are lazy.

[Kevinroc]

Greg Land does the exact same thing as Hitch and he is always on time. Hitch should be faster, cause he is still drawing the same stock Alan Davis faces he's always drawn. Alan Moore's work requires a lot of research but Watchmen shipped on time. It's just that they are lazy.

Watchmen did not ship on time. It was incredibly late.

[heystacy]

Yes, it's known for sure that Marvel delayed several tie-in comics so as not to spoil Civil War. Books like Frontline, Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four (as well as several other books) were delayed so as not to spoil the main mini-series.

The delays do make one question how important we should view just one story. Frankly, Stealthwise always seemed to be looking for any reason to drop the crossover and seems grateful he can use the delay as an excuse. But maybe I'm reading things the wrong way.


I think if my time and budget permits I will pick up the CW as a trade. There other books I'd like to look at, less tied together.

Crossovers do have that "must by" feel, and in reading Infinite Crisis, I think, sadly I've fallen out of the target demographic. :evilangry

Its all good though. Like I said there are other things for me to read.

[MartinRedmond]

Watchmen did not ship on time. It was incredibly late.
I thought that was only the last issue. Anyways, yes Watchmen does get kudos from nerds who write for "legit" papers. But it's still not the end all be all of all comics. I know it's sacrilege to say this, but I'm sure a whole lot of people couldn't give a shit about that book anyway. Seriously.

Other stuff that used to be late, the creators would be too involved in other projects or it was independents with little or no funding. They didn't spend one whole week laboring over one page. Their focus was elsewhere. If it's your full time job and you're grossing 6k a month, you have no excuse.

[MartinRedmond]

According to Geoff Johns, books are late because right now QUALITY is important.

... like, uhm... the oooh so high quality of, uhm...


hm.

let me get back to that one.

Exactly!!!

[NickThompson]

Greg Land does the exact same thing as Hitch and he is always on time.
Um....no they don't :)

[NickThompson]

Personally, I HATE fill-in artists. If you need to use more than one artist fair enough, but IMO when an arc starts, you stick with the same artist until the end.

[ChadtheH]

Here's my little pet theory on this (and I've ranted about it elsewhere).

Comic companies, being staffed with so many New York pretenders-to-the-elite, may try out unknown artists but for writers they collect names from other media -- TV, movies, books and elsewhere. This creates a problem for editors because you're very often giving comic jobs only to writers who already have a better job -- and if they have a better job elsewhere, then they won't have any time for comics.

This is why writers are so often responsible (or at least, so often blamed) for delays -- although theoretically they have the easiest job of anyone on the assembly line. It's not enough for X-Men to sell X-Men, Joss Whedon has to sell X-Men. Or Jeph Loeb has to sell Batman, or Kevin Smith Spider-Man, or Allan Heinberg for Wonder Woman, etc. etc. And some writers do well with that -- but, you take on a big name, you take all the risks that go with it.

To me, almost any "quality" delay you hear about is a code word for this problem.

[Alex Dragon]

Greg Land does the exact same thing as Hitch and he is always on time. Hitch should be faster, cause he is still drawing the same stock Alan Davis faces he's always drawn. Alan Moore's work requires a lot of research but Watchmen shipped on time. It's just that they are lazy.

WOW!!! That's incredibly debatable. I have no idea how you came to any of those conclusions.

[Alex Dragon]

After years of this I'd half way expect most people to just be used to and accept books being late by now. It's obvious that they aren't going away and they apparently don't hurt the companies as much as some people want to believe. I've never been able to understand the mentality of "I need an issue of X-men in my hands on a certain date and I don't care who does it or how bad it might be".

"Fill-in" creators/books do nothing other than muck up the creative vision of the orginal/main creative team. Even though I wasn't a big fan of CRISIS I'd rather the book been late and have the same artist from beginning to end than have what we actually ended up with. "Fill-in" artists ruined Morrison's X-Men run for me. If I'm a fan of Whedon/Cassaday's X-Men I'm just gonna skip a "fill in" by Defalco and Ron Garney. So in the end I end up having to wait for what I want anyway.

People say "Editors need to put their foot down on these slow guys!" But really, what editor want to be the one that chased away a hot superstar artist or writer to the competition because they gave them grief about deadlines?

People say "They need to give artists more lead time so they can get ahead and get some issues done before they put out the first issue..." That generally doesn't work because we've seen it fail time and time again. Think about all this lead time J. Scott Campbell has to get his Spider-man book done, think about all the lead time Joe Mad has on THE ULTIMATES, think about Adam Hughes on ALL STAR WONDER WOMAN. These announcements have been made months ago and it'll be months before any of those books are scheduled and I'll bet the farm that all of them will be late before they get to their 3rd issue.

It's just the nature of the business these days. All books don't come out late but the high profile stuff with high profile creators can be expected to have delays. Everyone involved with those projects have the pressure of doing their best work on those books and they take more time to get them as good as they can.

[MartinRedmond]

Please, did WE3 outsell X-Men? It was by the same STELLAR TEAM!!! and it didn't even come close.

Bryan Hitch is human like everyone else. What do people wow at when they look at it? It's the awesome realistic perspectives and backgrounds. But how do you do that???

His secret is that he uses photographic reference just like Greg Land uses photgraphic reference, just like 98% of all artists have been working for hundreds of years.

Now with the information age and most news stands being well stocked with TONS of specialty magazines there's no excuse for not having the proper reference. Drawing from photographs doesn't take much time either. You have nothing left to figure out. The difference with those guys and the artists before is that you have a whole lot more refs easily available.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but he's been shown to use already made comics to start his interior shots from. He's also been shown to retrace shots from movies like the Matrix in his own style. It's no big deal and everyone does it. But the point is that that stuff is done to save time.

So if anything comics should look better and come out faster.

[Cayman]

I don't know what artists are doing in their studios all day, all I see is the final result. If I have to wait to get something beautiful like Cassaday's Astonishing or Planetary, or Reis's Green Lantern, then that is fine. I'd much rather be happy with the actual product I end up buying than suffer through a bad fill-in or have the book turned over to a faster but less appealing artist.

[NickThompson]

His secret is that he uses photographic reference just like Greg Land uses photgraphic reference, just like 98% of all artists have been working for hundreds of years.
The common complaint with Land is that he does a bit more than photo reference.

[jerrymcl89]

I don't mind sporadic delays if (like with Green Lantern) I can look at the finished product and see why it might have taken more than four weeks to draw. Although if a book is actually scheduled bi-monthly (like "Justice"), I'm more likely to skip it until the trade comes out. It's no fun having to go back and re-read the previous issues to remember what was happening.

[Bob Violence]

I don't mind sporadic delays if (like with Green Lantern) I can look at the finished product and see why it might have taken more than four weeks to draw. Although if a book is actually scheduled bi-monthly (like "Justice"), I'm more likely to skip it until the trade comes out. It's no fun having to go back and re-read the previous issues to remember what was happening.
I find this killing more and more late books. When a book is late, I do go back and read the issues before, and lately I've been deciding not to bother. The more I re-read Kevin Smith's Spider-Man Black Cat thing the crappier it looked. If it had come out on time I might have just bought it out of habit. Stuff that's great, like Justice or Planetary is worth the wait. Junk is not.

[MartinRedmond]

You know that Cassaday just Photoshops whole heads and figures from comics he drew into new panels right? Another person that uses shortcuts and is always late. The methods haven't changed since the 60s artists are just lazy.

[Charles RB]

After years of this I'd half way expect most people to just be used to and accept books being late by now.

Why should I accept comics by work-for-hire companies coming out late? They can hire other artists or writers, there's no reason to be late. Meanwhile, I can pick up 2000AD over here, and that's a weekly - never late-shipped when I've been buying it. If editors can handle a mass-market weekly anthology title and bring that on time, how can they not schedule Civil War properly?


It's obvious that they aren't going away

Which means the people involved are shoddy workers. I can accept late-shipping if we're talking creator-owned, self-published or production snafus, but delays because they couldn't get a writer to write the script he'd been paid to write in the time he was paid to write it? They can piss off with that one.


People say "They need to give artists more lead time so they can get ahead and get some issues done before they put out the first issue..." That generally doesn't work because we've seen it fail time and time again.

Don't hire those artists then. If you know they're going to blow the deadline, hire someone else from the jump - there's a lot of good artists out there who can meet deadlines.

[NickThompson]

You know that Cassaday just Photoshops whole heads and figures from comics he drew into new panels right? Another person that uses shortcuts and is always late. The methods haven't changed since the 60s artists are just lazy.
Any evidence?

[CanaryNoir]

Any evidence?

He knows it's true 'cause he feels it... in his gut.

All I know is that Greg Land "draws" that one girl all the time while Cassady's women (and men) look like they are different people rather than Barbies all wearing different outfits and hairstyles. So Cassady wins!

Also, whoever used Alan Moore as a paragon of on-timeness clearly wasn't reading League of Extraordinary Gentlemen as it was coming out.

[MartinRedmond]

I don't have any of his comics, but I've seen it covered. Pages from Astonishing had some of the characters head copy pasted into more panels with no background whatsoever. I'm not saying it isn't legit or the art is bad, Wally Wood's been known to do that. I'm sure a whole lot of artists do it and it's an old practice. But let's be honest, there's no reason why it should take so long unless it's a hobby for him. All in all, delays don't mean the artist worked that actual long on the product. The artist might've spent even less time total on it than someone cranking out a monthly.

Oh and disclaimer, I'm not discussing weither the art is bad or not talent wise. I'm just talking about production delays, I'm not questioning anyone's talent. Though, personally, most artists that take forever don't impress me enough for me to follow their career. And I don't see what work related reasons could possibly cause the delays.

[MartinRedmond]

Cassady's women (and men) look like they are different people


It's the same stock Adam Hugues face...

[CanaryNoir]

It's the same stock Adam Hugues face...

I don't see that. All comic artists have their own particular style if they're any good, but Greg Land is a BIG offender of the that one girl/that one guy sameness. Perhaps Cassady (and Hughes et. al.) don't draw truly individual faces, but they do manage to get varying personalities across well.

[Alex Dragon]

Please, did WE3 outsell X-Men? It was by the same STELLAR TEAM!!! and it didn't even come close.

Bryan Hitch is human like everyone else. What do people wow at when they look at it? It's the awesome realistic perspectives and backgrounds. But how do you do that???

His secret is that he uses photographic reference just like Greg Land uses photgraphic reference, just like 98% of all artists have been working for hundreds of years.


No arguement from me about Hitch using reference but the way Hitch uses reference verses the way Land does is fairly different in my mind or at least from what I can tell. Both Land and Hitch use reference but Land's art these days is far more dependent on it. From what I see Land very rarely if ever makes anything up himself and traces everything. Land even traces the art of other comicbook artists.

As far as I can tell Hitch mostly traces to get Buildings, locals and backgrounds accuate. If he's using reference for people he's mostly doing it for a specific likeness. Hitch is actually drawing his people from his head and if he isn't he's not doing a dead on trace like Land. That's why his characters don't look nearly as posed and stiff as Land's stuff. Land is so dependent on reference to trace sometimes his characters don't even have the correct expressions for the scene because he must not have been able to find a pic of that expression. Hitch nails the expression every time because he's not bound by photos.

In the end you might feel they're doing the same thing but I don't see it that way. I can see the work Hitch puts into a page. I like Land's art too but I have to figure most of his time is spent looking for reference than actually drawing. So I agree with you that Land should be better at making deadlines but I see Hitch as doing a lot more actual work.

[MartinRedmond]

Let's do the reverse. Someone explain to me how you can spend 3 days on a page that is just talking heads, figures not interacting or a pin up with no background pleez.

[Young Avenger]

Greg Land does the exact same thing as Hitch and he is always on time.

They don't do the same thing. Hitch is not a tracer.

[Alex Dragon]

Why should I accept comics by work-for-hire companies coming out late? They can hire other artists or writers, there's no reason to be late. Meanwhile, I can pick up 2000AD over here, and that's a weekly - never late-shipped when I've been buying it. If editors can handle a mass-market weekly anthology title and bring that on time, how can they not schedule Civil War properly?

You're right, you don't have to accept late books, you can not buy them. Other than that you're stuck.

I don't know how you can compare 2000AD to a typical Marvel or DC title. From what I understand that's an anthology book where the artist/writers only do a few pages a week and when they need time to catch up they go away while another team handles installments. I'd imagine the stories are much shorter than the arcs done on a typical DC or Marvel creator run their books.


Which means the people involved are shoddy workers. I can accept late-shipping if we're talking creator-owned, self-published or production snafus, but delays because they couldn't get a writer to write the script he'd been paid to write in the time he was paid to write it? They can piss off with that one.

For the most part when a creative team takes on a Marvel or DC title it's pretty much the same as them taking on creator owned work because they both want to see their vision started and completed by them only. You or other fans may be perfectly pleased with another artist and or writer stepping in to get an issue of that title on the stands for the sake of making that deadline but not everyone feels the same way.

In the case making the artist get all (or 3 or 4) of the issues done before the first comes out, it might sound like a great idea but what tends to happen is that with many artists if they don't have some sort of real deadline they'll never get the work done. With a lot of artists and writers if you tell them to work on the book until "x" amount gets done with no real deadline they spend all their time re-drawing and over thinking stuff. They'll try to slip in other assignments. Or they'll take just take their time and slow down even more.

Sometimes the company wants a book to come out a certain time for maximum exposure and want to strike while the iron is hot. DC really wanted HHinberg to do Wonder Woman. If they waited until he had all the issues written there would've been too long a wait. The Hype surrounding CRISIS would've died down and the launch may not have been as successful. They could've gotten anther writer for the book but that person may not have been able to move as much product and perhaps Heinberg wouldn't want to follow another writer in that senerio.



Don't hire those artists then. If you know they're going to blow the deadline, hire someone else from the jump - there's a lot of good artists out there who can meet deadlines.

There are plenty of artists out there but not all are fan favs that can move product the way the high profile artists can. John Byrne can do 3 books a month but if he had drawn CRISIS I'll bet you it wouldn't have had the same kind of numbers. Steve Dillon can handle a monthly or two with no problem but if he was drawing THE ULTIMATES would it be the same hit it is now? Would it have been the same book or blown people away the way Hitch does on a regular basis? I'd say no. Even for the people who claim it wouldn't make any difference to them it just wouldn't be the same book whether they realize it or not. Hitch's art is a big reason that book is the monster hit it is for many reasons.

[Alex Dragon]

Let's do the reverse. Someone explain to me how you can spend 3 days on a page that is just talking heads, figures not interacting or a pin up with no background pleez.

None of the good high profile artists who miss deadlines and are put on important projects do.

[Charles RB]

You're right, you don't have to accept late books, you can not buy them.

And the last thing I heard from retailers, that's exactly what happens most of the time with late books - they sell less.


I don't know how you can compare 2000AD to a typical Marvel or DC title.

You're right - 2000AD is a lot harder and more labour-intensive for the editor. Yet it hardly ever late-ships, and when it does it's for reasons like printing snafus.


For the most part when a creative team takes on a Marvel or DC title it's pretty much the same as them taking on creator owned work

No it's not. On Marvel & DC, they're being hired to work on something that the company owns and the company can (and frequently does) tell them to alter or dump their original plans.


In the case making the artist get all (or 3 or 4) of the issues done before the first comes out, it might sound like a great idea but what tends to happen is that with many artists if they don't have some sort of real deadline they'll never get the work done.

...what? Artists have been told to do the artwork in advance of print date for decades now (because not doing it that way can lead to cock-ups) and they are given deadlines by the employers in which to do that. If they can't meet the deadline they're ordered to meet because they don't think it's a "real deadline", then they shouldn't be hired in the first place as they're clearly shoddy workers.


Sometimes the company wants a book to come out a certain time for maximum exposure and want to strike while the iron is hot.

That's an argument against allowing late ships. If the title doesn't come out on time, you lose that exposure and the heat, which means you get less sales than you could have.


DC really wanted HHinberg to do Wonder Woman. If they waited until he had all the issues written there would've been too long a wait.

Heinberg is leaving after issue six or something, they can't have wanted him that badly.


There are plenty of artists out there but not all are fan favs that can move product the way the high profile artists can.

Since when did all the high-profile artists become late-shippers?


John Byrne can do 3 books a month but if he had drawn CRISIS I'll bet you it wouldn't have had the same kind of numbers. Steve Dillon can handle a monthly or two with no problem but if he was drawing THE ULTIMATES would it be the same hit it is now?

The selling-point for the Ultimates was the creative team and what they were going to do to the Avengers. The selling-point for Crisis was that it was a big uber-hyped crossover with lots of superheroes in it.

Speaking of Ultimates - Vol.1 had sales affected by its massive delays. Hitch's art being in every issue didn't prevent that.

[stealthwise]

Yes, it's known for sure that Marvel delayed several tie-in comics so as not to spoil Civil War. Books like Frontline, Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four (as well as several other books) were delayed so as not to spoil the main mini-series.

The delays do make one question how important we should view just one story. Frankly, Stealthwise always seemed to be looking for any reason to drop the crossover and seems grateful he can use the delay as an excuse. But maybe I'm reading things the wrong way.

Actually, I was hesitant about Civil War after the last few hyped events I had read or heard about (Infinite Crisis, House of M), but found myself rather enjoying the first three issues of CW. Then the delays hit and I just figured, "enough." If a company can't respect its readers enough to ensure that the product is out on the stands, then I can't support their product.

I'm finishing up the last issues of Ultimates, which I would argue is a much better comic than CW is turning out to be, simply because I decided to get into it for the long run, but after this, no more. Late "quality" books should be the exception, not the rule they're turning into.

[heystacy]

I spoke with some students who switched out of the sequential art program to the illustration program. The pacing is what gets most students. They can draw, however, they could not give their art the details they thought they needed too without sacrificing the quality. Hence, they went into illustration, which allowed the the slower pacing. Several pro comics artists don't do monthlies for that same reason, I would guess. The pace is to great for them.

[StrikeForce Albert]

Greg Land does the exact same thing as Hitch

because a talking fish said it better

Da Fug?


They don't do the same thing. Hitch is not a tracer.

Correct, though there maybe some small instance he traces I've never noticed. For those that don't know the difference. Land will straight up trace a pic of a celebrity. Hitch will use a celebrity face to go by when he draws. Big differnce. to say they are the same is crazy