Was Avengers Disassembled just a take off of an old Avengers West Coast story?

[jmc247]

I just re-read a few old Avengers West Coast issues I haven't seen in years. In the issues the Scarlet Witch loses her kids, blames the team and all humans, Magneto shows up, Wanda goes evil/insane, she finally goes catatonic. Interestly they also talk about a super hero registration act.

There were differences though they fought Magneto with everything they had three times to get Wanda from him in Avengers West Coast, in Avengers Dissembled they gave her over no questions asked.

The Avengers simply seemed far more active and pro-active in the Avengers West Coast story. They also made it far easier for the Scarlet Witch to come back from her bout with insanity and evil in those Avengers West Coast issues.

[Babylon23]

Disassembled played off the events in this story. Bendis used the loss of Wanda's kids and her subsequent nervous breakdown as the catalyst for Wanda's insanity in Disassembled.

He just chose to ignore most of the stories that had occurred between the original story (Darker than Scarlet) and Disassembled.

[Kefky]

What about the Roy Thomas story that came right afterwards to give the story some closure? I'd say he took a few hints from it since Immortus and the time-keepers always refer to Wanda's power as "reality-altering hex powers" over and over again. And he may have gotten the idea for making her so powerful from Immortus's motivation to use her to control all timelines.

[Babylon23]

Well, I consider the Byrne/Thomas issues as one big story, since Byrne left partway through the storyline. So when I refer to the "Byrne story", I'm including Thomas resolution.

The reality altering was originally introduced by Byrne during his AWC run. He determined that Wanda's power actually alters the people/objects she directs her hexes at. Bendis extrapolating on this isn't a problem.

When I say he ignored many of the stories after Darker Than Scarlet, I'm referring more to Wanda's characterisation, her mental state, and the reason for her insanity in AD.

[Kefky]

Fair enough. :)

[XPac]

What about the Roy Thomas story that came right afterwards to give the story some closure? I'd say he took a few hints from it since Immortus and the time-keepers always refer to Wanda's power as "reality-altering hex powers" over and over again. And he may have gotten the idea for making her so powerful from Immortus's motivation to use her to control all timelines.

That's a good point. If you connect Thomas/Byrnes stuff directly to Bendis, it actually works pretty well. It's the Chaos Magic thing from Busiek that kind of throws a curveball.

[Babylon23]

That's a good point. If you connect Thomas/Byrnes stuff directly to Bendis, it actually works pretty well. It's the Chaos Magic thing from Busiek that kind of throws a curveball.

Disassembled would have made a lot more sense had it occurred within a year or two of Darker Than Scarlet. Most of it's continuity problems work if all of the stories between these events are ignored.

Also, I don't think the chaos theory messes the reality altering at all. It just gives a greater reasoning behind Wanda's abilities.

[jmc247]

Disassembled would have made a lot more sense had it occurred within a year or two of Darker Than Scarlet. Most of it's continuity problems work if all of the stories between these events are ignored.

Also, I don't think the chaos theory messes the reality altering at all. It just gives a greater reasoning behind Wanda's abilities.

Now that you think of it I think the whole Magneto taking his daughter away from the Avengers would have made sense to people if the Avengers didn't think Magneto was dead and that he just killed thousands in New York.

[Babylon23]

Now that you think of it I think the whole Magneto taking his daughter away from the Avengers would have made sense to people if the Avengers didn't think Magneto was dead and that he just killed thousands in New York.

Definitely. Magneto was still in a grey area at this point, slowly moving back towards villainy. While it would still seem a little strange, it would have made more sense at that point.

You would also have a Wanda that didn't remember her children, so the sudden revelation of this loss driving her into insanity would have made sense, unlike the scene in AD.

[Joe Acro]

This brings up an interesting question.

Is there anyway to explain how both stories are in continuity? Clearly, Disassembled contradicts Darker than Scarlet. But, short of a not-yet-given-probably-won't-be-given-soon explanation in a Marvel mag, could the two stories work together?

[Babylon23]

This brings up an interesting question.

Is there anyway to explain how both stories are in continuity? Clearly, Disassembled contradicts Darker than Scarlet. But, short of a not-yet-given-probably-won't-be-given-soon explanation in a Marvel mag, could the two stories work together?

Actually, I don't think Disassembled contradicts Darker Than Scarlet. It's the stories after Darker Than Scarlet that it contradicts/ignores.

[The Shadow]

Actually, I don't think Disassembled contradicts Darker Than Scarlet. It's the stories after Darker Than Scarlet that it contradicts/ignores.
I don't think it contradicts anything IF (and it's a BIG if ;) ) you assume that Darker and DA took place with a "year of Marvel time" of each other as oppsed to 10 years later.

You also have to make some allowances that someone that has a nervous breakdown and mental issues is never 100% cured... they just keep things together through medication, therapy etc.

So it's concievable that Wanda had a regression if she was off her medication, stopped therapy or thought she could control it without any help.

Now before you say "we never saw her in thearapy or taking drug" we've also never seen most characters go to the bathroom either... but I'm sure it happens.
Waaaaaaay off panel.

[XPac]

I don't think it contradicts anything IF (and it's a BIG if ;) ) you assume that Darker and DA took place with a "year of Marvel time" of each other as oppsed to 10 years later.

You also have to make some allowances that someone that has a nervous breakdown and mental issues is never 100% cured... they just keep things together through medication, therapy etc.

So it's concievable that Wanda had a regression if she was off her medication, stopped therapy or thought she could control it without any help.

Now before you say "we never saw her in thearapy or taking drug" we've also never seen most characters go to the bathroom either... but I'm sure it happens.
Waaaaaaay off panel.

I believe the newer Marvel Handbooks cited that Vision and Scarlet Witch got back together off panel. Assuming that's true (and I don't believe there was every any actual evidence that they did other than the handbook entry), I wonder if we're supposed to assume that she proverbially fell off the wagon because she got back with Vision again. Maybe that just brought back some rough memories.

Either way, there's suppossed to be a What If coming up about Disassembled. Maybe we'll get more pieces of the puzzle in that.

[Babylon23]

I don't think it contradicts anything IF (and it's a BIG if ;) ) you assume that Darker and DA took place with a "year of Marvel time" of each other as oppsed to 10 years later.

You also have to make some allowances that someone that has a nervous breakdown and mental issues is never 100% cured... they just keep things together through medication, therapy etc.

So it's concievable that Wanda had a regression if she was off her medication, stopped therapy or thought she could control it without any help.

Now before you say "we never saw her in thearapy or taking drug" we've also never seen most characters go to the bathroom either... but I'm sure it happens.
Waaaaaaay off panel.

It's more a case of the catalyst Bendis used for Wanda's insanity contradicting all of Wanda's characterisation between Darker Than Scarlet and Disassembled. Basically, Bendis was under the misconception that Wanda didn't remember her children, something that was obviously erroneous. The issue of Wanda and her children has been covered quite extensively in the interim between the two stories.

Now, if Wanda didn't remember her children, and if she hadn't come to terms with the loss, AD would make more sense. If Bendis (or any other writer in the 15 years since Darker Than Scarlet) had been shown some regression on Wanda's part, or shown her struggling with her sanity in any capacity, then AD would make more sense.

I think it's more then just assuming that Darker and DA took place within a "year of Marvel time" of each other. You have to actively ignore any depiction of Wanda remembering her children, dealing with her loss, or being presented as a strong, stable character.

[Mo S.]

It's more a case of the catalyst Bendis used for Wanda's insanity contradicting all of Wanda's characterisation between Darker Than Scarlet and Disassembled. Basically, Bendis was under the misconception that Wanda didn't remember her children, something that was obviously erroneous. The issue of Wanda and her children has been covered quite extensively in the interim between the two stories.

Now, if Wanda didn't remember her children, and if she hadn't come to terms with the loss, AD would make more sense. If Bendis (or any other writer in the 15 years since Darker Than Scarlet) had been shown some regression on Wanda's part, or shown her struggling with her sanity in any capacity, then AD would make more sense.

I think it's more then just assuming that Darker and DA took place within a "year of Marvel time" of each other. You have to actively ignore any depiction of Wanda remembering her children, dealing with her loss, or being presented as a strong, stable character.

Or if there had been some huge traumatic event that caused her grasp on reality to slip so that she had regressed to a point where she didn't remember her children or didn't always remember them, which would have just confused her further. That would have had to have been a longer-term setup, though.

[TransformersFan]

Im not all up to date in Scarlet Witchs character, but I do remember in some panels in Dissassembled she was talking to someone, and someone responded as events unfolded. I think it was some thing like "Is it time?" "Yes, the time is now" and the vision crashes the Quinjet into the mansion. will we ever get confirmation that indeed that was herself she was talking to or some other malevolent dark force who manipulated her (as some have suggested).

[mattbib]

Or if there had been some huge traumatic event that caused her grasp on reality to slip so that she had regressed to a point where she didn't remember her children or didn't always remember them, which would have just confused her further. That would have had to have been a longer-term setup, though.I thought Agatha Harkness (or maybe Immmortus?) HAD caused Wanda to forget that she had children?

[jmc247]

I thought Agatha Harkness (or maybe Immmortus?) HAD caused Wanda to forget that she had children?

Read Avengers West Coast Annual 7.

[Kirk G]

Im not all up to date in Scarlet Witchs character, but I do remember in some panels in Dissassembled she was talking to someone, and someone responded as events unfolded. I think it was some thing like "Is it time?" "Yes, the time is now" and the vision crashes the Quinjet into the mansion. will we ever get confirmation that indeed that was herself she was talking to or some other malevolent dark force who manipulated her (as some have suggested).
I thought the conversations were occuring in her head between her kids. Or, the conversation between the two at the end of the first issue were her kids.

I agree the Thomas story was an attempt to tie up the Immortus/Darker than Scarlett storyline, and as it goes, I guess it did that... but I still yearn for Byrne to finish his own story the right way.

That's interesting that the WCA were struggling to resist Mags getting Wanda in Darker Than Scarlet, yet, at the end of Dissembled, those members continuing with the Avengers DO allow Mags to walk off with her. But then, we weren't sure if she was killed at that point, were we? Also, there's a bit of a difference between a glowering Byrne-drawn Magneto in his helmet threatening the team and a calm helmet-less Eric Lensur/Magnus floating down asking for the body of his child.

I say, why not ignor all the continuity that occurred between these two stories. It was all crap, wasn't it??:D

[Babylon23]

Or if there had been some huge traumatic event that caused her grasp on reality to slip so that she had regressed to a point where she didn't remember her children or didn't always remember them, which would have just confused her further. That would have had to have been a longer-term setup, though.

Exactly. In Darker Than Scarlet, Wanda's breakdown occurred after a series of traumatic events - the dismantling of the Vision, his reconstruction as an emotionless being, Wonder Man's refusal to help him regain those emotions, Wanda's possession by an ancient entity, the revelation that her children were aspects of Mephisto's soul, the loss of said chilldren, and the return of Magneto to her life. A year's worth of issues that culminate in her breakdown.

[Mo S.]

Exactly. In Darker Than Scarlet, Wanda's breakdown occurred after a series of traumatic events - the dismantling of the Vision, his reconstruction as an emotionless being, Wonder Man's refusal to help him regain those emotions, Wanda's possession by an ancient entity, the revelation that her children were aspects of Mephisto's soul, the loss of said chilldren, and the return of Magneto to her life. A year's worth of issues that culminate in her breakdown.

It could have been set up in the Captain Britain/Lionheart storyline. It had to be painful for Wanda to see Kelsey's interaction with her children, as Wanda knew Kelsey's secret and how much Kelsey longed to be able to tell her children she was still alive. A few choice comments on Kelsey's part (as Kelsey may not have known that Wanda had ever had children or what had happened to them) could have really pushed it.

Of course, that was Austen writing with no knowledge of what was coming after.

[Babylon23]

Definitely. With the proper planning, this could even have begun as early as Wanda's possession in World Trust.

If handled properly, the transition to New Avengers could have made for entertaining reading. Instead, we got a rush job, with Wanda used as a tool to quickly clear a path for the New Avengers.

[mattbib]

Read Avengers West Coast Annual 7.Well, I did, like fourteen years ago. How about just reminding us of what happened?

[Mo S.]

Well, I did, like fourteen years ago. How about just reminding us of what happened?

Okay, remember that I was not the one who made the snarky comment telling you to read these...

Two pages from WCA #7:
page 29:
http://www.rhyo.net/wcaannual07p29.jpg
page 35:


http://www.rhyo.net/wcaannual07p35.jpg

Gah, the blue eyeshadow, it pains me. Anyway, in this story, Wanda gets to see a What-If version of herself, where Agatha Harkness kept the children from being destroyed. Wanda contrasts that to the "real" present, where her children are gone, and thinks that she is glad that Agatha relented and gave her back her memory of her children.

[mattbib]

Okay, remember that I was not the one who made the snarky comment telling you to read these...

Two pages from WCA #7:
page 29:
http://www.rhyo.net/wcaannual07p29.jpg
page 35:


http://www.rhyo.net/wcaannual07p35.jpg

Gah, the blue eyeshadow, it pains me. Anyway, in this story, Wanda gets to see a What-If version of herself, where Agatha Harkness kept the children from being destroyed. Wanda contrasts that to the "real" present, where her children are gone, and thinks that she is glad that Agatha relented and gave her back her memory of her children.Heh. That's it? I'm much more willing to ignore a back-up in an Annual than I am all of Disassembled.

Thanks. :)

[Mo S.]

Heh. That's it? I'm much more willing to ignore a back-up in an Annual than I am all of Disassembled.

Thanks. :)

No, there were other, later, mentions in the main series, but I'll have to dig them up.

[Babylon23]

It's clearly established both in WCA and Busiek's Avengers run that Wanda not only knows about the loss of her children, but that she's come to terms with that loss. She even uses it to strengthen her resolve when she was imprisoned by Morgaine Lefay in issue 3 of Busiek's run.

[Mo S.]

It's clearly established both in WCA and Busiek's Avengers run that Wanda not only knows about the loss of her children, but that she's come to terms with that loss. She even uses it to strengthen her resolve when she was imprisoned by Morgaine Lefay in issue 3 of Busiek's run.

Right, right - I just reread the Conquest run and there are 3 references in there to her children, and how that didn't kill her and she's not going to let this kill her either. That's V3, Busiek's runs.

[mattbib]

Okay, thanks, that's a MUCH better example. Agatha DID block the memory, but restored it, and Wanda even USED that memory as recently as Busiek's run. Can't really ignore that.

So the question is, how do we reconcile Wanda's lack of memory come Disassembled? WITHOUT actuall yignoring anything else? Maybe Immortus made her forget...that'd certainly be in line with his previous methods of trying to prevent Wanda from having children.

[Babylon23]

Okay, thanks, that's a MUCH better example. Agatha DID block the memory, but restored it, and Wanda even USED that memory as recently as Busiek's run. Can't really ignore that.

So the question is, how do we reconcile Wanda's lack of memory come Disassembled? WITHOUT actuall yignoring anything else? Maybe Immortus made her forget...that'd certainly be in line with his previous methods of trying to prevent Wanda from having children.

The Chthon possession theory works best for me. It would explain Wanda's insanity, Doc Strange's bizarre "no chaos magic" comments, Cap's inability to do anything but argue with Hawkeye during the crisis, Agatha Harkness supposedly being dead, and the Avengers willingness to hand an ultra-powerful mutant over to a supposedly dead mutant terrorist. Plus, Wanda's powers are intrinsically tied to Chthon and Wundagore Mountain, and he's taken possession of her in the past. All of this could be used to reconcile AD.

[Alan2099]

Dissassembled actually featured Tony Stark's failed Wanda clone. The real Scarlet Witch is ... umm... somewhere else.

[Babylon23]

Dissassembled actually featured Tony Stark's failed Wanda clone. The real Scarlet Witch is ... umm... somewhere else.

Simple but effective. I like it.

[Mo S.]

Okay, thanks, that's a MUCH better example. Agatha DID block the memory, but restored it, and Wanda even USED that memory as recently as Busiek's run. Can't really ignore that.

So the question is, how do we reconcile Wanda's lack of memory come Disassembled? WITHOUT actuall yignoring anything else? Maybe Immortus made her forget...that'd certainly be in line with his previous methods of trying to prevent Wanda from having children.

That's why we were tossing around the idea of some other crisis in her life, something that spun out of Austen's run and happened before Disassembled. Since she remembered her children prior to that, something happened to make her grasp of that memory less solid. An "untold tale" is pretty much what it takes.

[tk421atpost]

Dissassembled actually featured Tony Stark's failed Wanda clone. The real Scarlet Witch is ... umm... somewhere else.


That's one retcon I'd be very happy with.

[jmc247]

Dissassembled actually featured Tony Stark's failed Wanda clone. The real Scarlet Witch is ... umm... somewhere else.

If Bendis just stopped it at Dissassembled that would be do able, but continuing it into House of M is the real problem.

And, then he portayed her in House of M less as insane and more as childish and angry.

[Babylon23]

If Bendis just stopped it at Dissassembled that would be do able, but continuing it into House of M is the real problem.

And, then he portayed her in House of M less as insane and more as childish and angry.

Actually, I think the clone works better for House of M. Wanda's ridiculously childish rant about her father is completely out of character, but makes perfect sense if a young Wanda clone is doing the ranting.

[The Shadow]

Actually, I think the clone works better for House of M. Wanda's ridiculously childish rant about her father is completely out of character, but makes perfect sense if a young Wanda clone is doing the ranting.
Well, by House of M Wanda was bat **** crazy... so pretty much anything she said could arguably be "off"

[Shellhead]

If Bendis just stopped it at Dissassembled that would be do able, but continuing it into House of M is the real problem.

And, then he portayed her in House of M less as insane and more as childish and angry.

Given that so many writers love to use insane characters, it would be nice if more of them would go to the trouble of learning about abnormal psychology.

[jmc247]

Given that so many writers love to use insane characters, it would be nice if more of them would go to the trouble of learning about abnormal psychology.

I agree with you on that completely.

She came off in House of M somewhat like how many bipolars I know act. But, I know that wasn't what they were going for.

[Kirk G]

Dissassembled actually featured Tony Stark's failed Wanda clone. The real Scarlet Witch is ... umm... somewhere else.
Yes...I'd say she's in Eastern Europe or in the Ukraine somewhere, ignorant of what Tony's done to her.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that it's TONY who is the ancestor of Kang...if not really Kang under that armor!

[Babylon23]

I agree with you on that completely.

She came off in House of M somewhat like how many bipolars I know act. But, I know that wasn't what they were going for.

I'm not sure what it is they were going for in HoM. Whatever it was, it really didn't work for me.

[DDM]

Dissassembled actually featured Tony Stark's failed Wanda clone. The real Scarlet Witch is ... umm... somewhere else.

...more than likely dating Chthon, the Elder God, so he can come back to Earth's dimension to rule...

[jmc247]

Dissassembled actually featured Tony Stark's failed Wanda clone. The real Scarlet Witch is ... umm... somewhere else.

Works for me.

[roundman]

Dissassembled actually featured Tony Stark's failed Wanda clone. The real Scarlet Witch is ... umm... somewhere else.

She's buried in a cacoon under a bay in New York. After Civil War, the Fantastic Four will find her.

[Drunkenthumbs]

She's buried in a cacoon under a bay in New York. After Civil War, the Fantastic Four will find her.

Yeah all we need now is the current version to sacrifice herself on the moon.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Is there any word on if Wanda will be sticking around after her return next month?

[CMBMOOL]

Wow, clever of Marvel to re-due old stories just to make a couple of buck off the modern day reader, have they no shame ? :mad: