Awkward heterosexual assertions (BOP 97)

[ChadtheH]

Hey gang. Felt like throwing a lighter into the powder keg…

Just finished BOP #97, the conclusion of a really decent two-parter by Gail in which the heroines are in Dayton, Ohio tracking down Lori, a young meta with a widowed father who is being sought by a bevy of DCU nasties including Felix Faust, Cheetah and Talia al Ghul. As a former Ohioan myself, I dug the locale AND even the effective use of nearby Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and the Air Force museum (although, having Zinda there and all, it felt a little like those old episodes of Superfriends where the badguys would rob Fort Knox then make a getaway by boat, just so that Aquaman could play a role).

Anyway, a sticking point for me. At one point Dinah lets into Talia and reflects at one point that Batman may feel conflicted about fighting her but "since I'm hetero to the bone…" she won't be so distracted.

Is this necessary? Seems to me, the average heterosexual woman doesn't spend much time thinking about the fact she's not a lesbian – any more than you and I think about how we're not Inuit seal-fishers. Since she's comparing herself to Batman here, the difference is that she's a woman – not that she's straight. Add to that the fact that Talia doesn't swing that way either, and it's like saying "let me assure you I won't be tempted by something that could never happen and is pointless to mention anyway."

Discuss…

[Merey]

The purpose of that line isn't really a reflection of Dinah, instead it's pointing out Talia's history of dominating men (namely Batman and others attracted to women) through seductive means. I took it as a somewhat sly attempt of slipping in some character exposition.

[OzBat!]

Or maybe it's Canary in full-blown denial mode, setting up the REAL reason she leaves the team, to shack up with Talia and Scandal Savage and star in their own late-nite passion drama with all the requisite tension and seduction that entails...

[ninjapeps]

I'm sure the line was thrown in for the slashers.

[Gilda Dent]

See, I think y'all are misreading the intent there. She's showing off how much more hetero she is than Talia.

It's like "I'm hetero to the bone" with the implication being that Talia is only hetero to midway throught the muscle tissue, and Cheetah, well she's only hetero down to the adipose tissue.

Sometimes you have to read between the lines. It's all there, I assure you. Huntress, by the way, is hetero to the ligaments, and Zinda is hetero to the marrow, but interestingly, not all the way to the outer layer of skin, which just a tiny bit lesbo.

It's pretty obvious that this is exactly how Gail has been writing them.

Gilda

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Or maybe it's Canary in full-blown denial mode, setting up the REAL reason she leaves the team, to shack up with Talia and Scandal Savage and star in their own late-nite passion drama with all the requisite tension and seduction that entails...

Please...be hired by Cinemax.

[Karen El]

It's like "I'm hetero to the bone" with the implication being that Talia is only hetero to midway throught the muscle tissue, and Cheetah, well she's only hetero down to the adipose tissue.


I dunno, speaking as a part-time Inuit seal fisher I have to say I think you are failing to take account of the Cheetah/Giganta subtext that's going on in Wonder Woman.

[Gilda Dent]

I dunno, speaking as a part-time Inuit seal fisher I have to say I think you are failing to take account of the Cheetah/Giganta subtext that's going on in Wonder Woman.

You could be right, but speaking as a Japapino Unitarian, I think that at most that's indicative of Cheetah being hetero through the fur, but homo to the to the cartilage.

Gilda

[YoGo]

I think that if i had been a lesbian then i would have enjoyed getting shot by gail simone.

[Gail Simone]

Hey gang. Felt like throwing a lighter into the powder keg…

Just finished BOP #97, the conclusion of a really decent two-parter by Gail in which the heroines are in Dayton, Ohio tracking down Lori, a young meta with a widowed father who is being sought by a bevy of DCU nasties including Felix Faust, Cheetah and Talia al Ghul. As a former Ohioan myself, I dug the locale AND even the effective use of nearby Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and the Air Force museum (although, having Zinda there and all, it felt a little like those old episodes of Superfriends where the badguys would rob Fort Knox then make a getaway by boat, just so that Aquaman could play a role).

Anyway, a sticking point for me. At one point Dinah lets into Talia and reflects at one point that Batman may feel conflicted about fighting her but "since I'm hetero to the bone…" she won't be so distracted.

Is this necessary? Seems to me, the average heterosexual woman doesn't spend much time thinking about the fact she's not a lesbian – any more than you and I think about how we're not Inuit seal-fishers. Since she's comparing herself to Batman here, the difference is that she's a woman – not that she's straight. Add to that the fact that Talia doesn't swing that way either, and it's like saying "let me assure you I won't be tempted by something that could never happen and is pointless to mention anyway."

Discuss…


It was an error, placeholder dialogue. For reasons too complicated to get into, my fixes didn't actually make it to the issue, as they usually would have. So a couple bits of dialogue stayed in that were meant to be changed. The correct line was "and me being at least 70% hetero..."

Gail

[ChadtheH]

The correct line was "and me being at least 70% hetero..."

Gail

Ah, then I stand corrected – or, I guess, partly corrected since now it's 30% relevant. What's a 70% hetero, anyway – is that like Anne Heche or something?

As for Karen El's post, how fortuitously unlikely…an Inuit seal fisher who has a computer and access to the Internet, AND happens to read comics and saw my post? Silly me and my former Ohio resident assumptions.

[MartinRedmond]

She's hetero for a big boner.

[Azrael52]

She's hetero for a big boner.

Oh, no, now Super Sonic has another identity like Lester!

[Dr Ray Palmer]

It was an error, placeholder dialogue. For reasons too complicated to get into, my fixes didn't actually make it to the issue, as they usually would have. So a couple bits of dialogue stayed in that were meant to be changed. The correct line was "and me being at least 70% hetero..."

Oh, now I love that line! I mean, I didn't have any particular problem with the line as it made it in, but it does kind of feel like it just lies there. But THIS line makes me laugh!

[AndrewCrossett]

I think Cheetah is obviously gay for Dinah. She made the tactical choice to lie there rubbing her naked cheetah body against Dinah's, huffing and puffing and purring about tearing her throat out instead of... you know, actually tearing her throat out before Canary could unleash a scream at a 6-inch range that would strip all the flesh from her head and leave her with a blinking, bare skull like in an Itchy & Scratchy cartoon.

So yeah, gay.

[shrike]

Does that mean Zinda, Babs and Helena each get 10% of her homo-ness?

[Noah Johnson]

Does that mean Zinda, Babs and Helena each get 10% of her homo-ness?
Strikes me as a scheduling and logistical problem more than anything...

[SteelChrysanthemum]

Does that mean Zinda, Babs and Helena each get 10% of her homo-ness?
I'm pretty sure Shiva gets at least 20%. Dinah changed her life for Sandra, after all.;)

[Gail Simone]

Everyone's doing everybody.

Gail

[Grazzt]

Everyone's doing everybody.

Gail

You better be careful, Gail. If you feed the slashers, they're going to follow you home.

[DEWLine]

Gail's not worried. She's got all manner of...distractions...pre-arranged that will dispose of the unwary and unwanted. With no need to bother herself personally at all in the disposal process. :evilsmile

[Magneto_X]

She's hetero for Green Arrow's big boner.

Fixed it for you, Martin.

[WhiteRose]

The correct line was "and me being at least 70% hetero..."

Gail

...are you fucking with us? Because I can never be sure if you're serious or not...

[ChthonicSpirit]

...are you fucking with us? Because I can never be sure if you're serious or not...

That's the problem with Gail. You never know if it's a joke.

[Drakonnen]

Everyone's doing everybody.

Gail

Let me just say, thats a Birds of Prey I'd love to see, lol.

I don't suppose Ed Benes could be brought back to draw that issue :) :
http://imgserv1.imagehigh.com/imgss/3944417_Huntress%20Signature%20Final.jpg
(One of my favorite Ed Benes Huntress drawings I used in a signature on another forum)

I can settle for just brining back Huntress' shorts though :)

[Corrina]

I look at that shot and all I can think is "ouch, ouch, serious wedgie."

[Don Blanco]

Isn't that what Oprah said, "Me and Gayle are hetero to the bone."

I'm pretty sure that Oprah meant her friend Gayle and not Gail Simone, even though I sure she would have included Gail if she'd thought about it and knew her. Anyway, you can be sure Rosie O' Donnell is pissed off about it. Like Rosie's son, I'm just glad she got rid of that scary haircut. I have a friend who is both a firefighter and a lesbian who has a mullet and may be the one woman who should get that scary haircut.

[shrike]

I look at that shot and all I can think is "ouch, ouch, serious wedgie."


hahaha I thought the same thing!

I was like 'god how would I remove that thing outta there?'

[Drakonnen]

hahaha I thought the same thing!

I was like 'god how would I remove that thing outta there?'

I'm not sure it counts as a wedgie when the chick is walking around in daisy dukes that sit that way normally, anymore than a thong would be considered a wedgie, heh.

I'd be willing to help Helena out though. ;)

[titanfan]

If only I was there when Dinah was asserting her hetero'ness. I would have whipped out a picture of this costume and demand that she explain it:

http://www.newkadia.com/Covers/L/B/Black%20Canary%201993%20series/blackcanary1993series10.jpg

[MrSuslov]

If only I was there when Dinah was asserting her hetero'ness. I would have whipped out a picture of this costume and demand that she explain it:
That was unnecessary; I'll be sending you a bill for the damage done when I had to bleach my eyes out. This my friends is the definition of published obscenity. ;)

[CanaryNoir]

I'm not sure it counts as a wedgie when the chick is walking around in daisy dukes that sit that way normally, anymore than a thong would be considered a wedgie, heh.

I'd be willing to help Helena out though. ;)

First of all, ew.

Second of all, no one's shorts sit that way normally. Look at your own butt; look at its crack. Do your shorts go in there naturally? No? Neither do women's.

I have a lot of problems with the whole butt drawing, actually. What is up with her gluteal muscles? That is not normal. She probably has some sort of... problem she needs to see a doctor about. Probably caused by going around with a massive wedgie all the time.

Poor thing.

[Drakonnen]

Second of all, no one's shorts sit that way normally. Look at your own butt; look at its crack. Do your shorts go in there naturally? No? Neither do women's.

Actually, it depends on the shorts, doesn't it? We're not talking khakis here, CanaryNoir, we're talking spandex daisy duke style cutoffs.

I've seen girls wear shorts that were not that far off from that in fact, heh, and they fit quite similarly, yes.

There is a reason why -multiple- times just in the last week alone I've seen these superheroines, in the comics themselves, referred to either as looking like hookers or "sluts" (and that last word was used in Birds of Prey itself).

If you still find it unrealistic, well, *gasp*, thats why its a comic!

[CanaryNoir]

If you still find it unrealistic, well, *gasp*, thats why its a comic!

Oops, was that a nerve?

I can't accept that as an axiom. Comics don't have to be unrealistic nor is really crappy anatomy "okay" if it's in a comic. Huntress's butt is masterpiece of Picasso-esque proportions as far as dislocated bits go. After all, there's unrealistic, and then there's anatomically incorrect which a hinged butt crack most certainly is.

Now, quit making yanking your chain so much fun, or I'll never stop.

[Noah Johnson]

Canary has a point; I'm a minor expert on the female ass, and it doesn't generally do that...

[shrike]

If you still find it unrealistic, well, *gasp*, thats why its a comic!

Fine, then we should also see dongage lines in all that spandex the boys are packin'.

[Drakonnen]

Oops, was that a nerve?

A nerve? lol, what are you talking about you figgin' nut? We're discussing comic book art anatomy and costumes. Who would have a nerve over that, unless you were the artist or something. Maybe you're just a little sensitive about the response for some reason? :P


I can't accept that as an axiom. Comics don't have to be unrealistic

What comics are you reading? Of course comics are unrealistic as are 99% of the outfits, especially the -female- outfits. You think Black Canary's fishnets serve some realism purpose? What about Supergirl's midrift and micro-skirt? Starfire's psuedo-bikini? Powergirl's cleavage display? All great crime fighting outfits if we're going for realism, right? And don't even get me started on the realism and practicality of capes if we really want to get into it, lol...

Realistic would be if they all went to battle in plain black jump suits rather than colorful, eye-popping costumes.

But you know, that sorta realism would suck too, and comics would be extremely boring to look at, hence the reason realism doesn't even enter into the fray in Superhero costume arena.

[CanaryNoir]

A nerve? lol, what are you talking about you figgin' nut? We're discussing comic book art anatomy and costumes. Who would have a nerve over that, unless you were the artist or something. Maybe you're just a little sensitive about the response for some reason? :P

...whatever...
("figgin' nut?" Is possibly misinterpreting someone's tone now a sign of insanity? Who knew?)

But you didn't respond to what I actually said. I didn't say the costume was realistic nor that comics weren't unrealistic. I said the anatomy was unrealistic and that comics didn't have to be unrealistic.

A listing of unrealistic costumes doesn't address the hinged butt crack issue, and I'm not going to have the Canary-wears-fishnets, so-there conversation. I doubt you've worn fishnets before, though I won't presume you haven't. I have. There's nothing unrealistic about fishnets though they are a bit impractical for anything let alone crimefighting. I, however, have no problem with that. Hinged butt cracks, meanwhile, do tend to trigger my suspension-of-disbelief-o-meter.

And we all already know that "no capes" is a very sensible mantra. They can lead to much tragedy...

[Drakonnen]

Certainly some anatomy isn't always drawn with 100% accuracy or realism, no question there, but I think for the most part the artists do a great job of it.

But, on the issue of tiny, skin tight daisy-duke shorts riding up like that on a woman, having seen it on girls in real life (hell my wife wears tiny shorts like that to bed every night that do practically the same thing), I can say thats a fairly accurate representation. Is it a little exagerated in the picture I posted? Probably, but thats comic art for you.

I could post pictures as evidence, I suppose, but I only joined today and I'm not ready to be banned yet. :)

And I didn't mean the friggin' nut thing, for the record. I was just kidding back at you because you said you struck a nerve, though you didn't. :)

Regardless, there is nothing stopping Huntress from having her costume with the shorts again (whether they ride up her crack or not is a seperate issue). I just find the look more interesting and appealing, personally.

[Corrina]

A nerve? lol, what are you talking about you figgin' nut? We're discussing comic book art anatomy and costumes.

A subject that canarynoir has significant knowledge and experience in. If you'd stop calling her a nut and look at the gorgeous Canary Noir site, you'd know.

And the "hey, comic girls are all for guy fan service anyway" attitude isn't really that helpful to the discussion either.

[Drakonnen]

A subject that canarynoir has significant knowledge and experience in. If you'd stop calling her a nut and look at the gorgeous Canary Noir site, you'd know.

I was kidding about that, and apologized for the comment, but perhaps you didn't read that post. And I only did it once, so there is no ongoing trend for me to stop...

And thanks, but I already saw the Canary Noir site weeks ago. I very much enjoyed it :)


And the "hey, comic girls are all for guy fan service anyway" attitude isn't really that helpful to the discussion either.

Where did I say that? All I said initially was I really liked Ed Benes's BOP art, and I preferred Huntress' old costume to her currently lack luster one. I guess I can't express an opinion around here without having unstated and unimplied meanings attached to it, heh.

However, since you brought it up, although I don't agree with that being the only thing comic superheroines are good for nor did I say that or imply that (there are several female characters I enjoy seeing/following simply because they are -interesting-), it would be foolish to assume that the powers that be in the comics industry don't take into account the sex appeal of their female characters.


Fine, then we should also see dongage lines in all that spandex the boys are packin'.

While the sexual appeal of male characters isn't all -that- pronounced in comparison to the females, its clear that it is taken into account to a certain extent, hence the broad shoulders, chisled jaw lines and perfectly muscled bodies. You can bet though that if the comic industry thought it had more to gain from adding a bit of "dongage" definition, as you put it, such as a larger female fanbase, they'd probably go ahead and do it.

[MrSuslov]

You can bet though that if the comic industry thought it had more to gain from adding a bit of "dongage" definition, as you put it, such as a larger female fanbase, they'd probably go ahead and do it.
Ew, if there could be anything more calculated to drive me away from comics, I can't think of what it could be.

[Drakonnen]

Ew, if there could be anything more calculated to drive me away from comics, I can't think of what it could be.

Exactly! Hence the reason you'll never see it: the comic book industry has nothing to gain from doing that, and instead would probably scare people off. :)

The same rule, whether fortunately or unfortunately, obviously doesn't apply to drawing sexualized versions of female characters though.

[Corrina]

Well, the majority of prose fiction readers are women. That includes the SF/F genre, where the margin is about 51/49.

So I'm thinking that the reason more women aren't reading superheroes isn't that they hate them in concept. More likely the execution.

Ah, sorry, Drakonnen. I posted last night just before you posted your reply to Canarynoir about the nut comment.

[Noah Johnson]

Ew, if there could be anything more calculated to drive me away from comics, I can't think of what it could be.
This is another of those statements the logic of which I can't process.

[MartinRedmond]

Birds of Prey: Now with 30% potential lesbian scenes.

[Gilda Dent]

While the sexual appeal of male characters isn't all -that- pronounced in comparison to the females, its clear that it is taken into account to a certain extent, hence the broad shoulders, chisled jaw lines and perfectly muscled bodies. You can bet though that if the comic industry thought it had more to gain from adding a bit of "dongage" definition, as you put it, such as a larger female fanbase, they'd probably go ahead and do it.

This gets brought up every time this discussion comes along. It isn't a good parallel because both are based on stereotypical male fantasies. Females are depicted according to the stereotypical male fantasy, and males are depicted as a stereotypical male fantasy also. The women are often drawn according to how males see their idealized partner, and the men as the male idealized self. They're both playing into stereotypical male fantasies.

Look at the guys. It's about huge muscles, and exaggerated V, muscular definition, being, or at least looking bigger and stronger than the next guy. Female characters, even the scrappers and supertypes, those with powers based on some sort of HTH combat, are typically depicted as thin (this is changing, but still the norm). Superman and Captain Marvel don't have strength based on muscular size, so they could reasonably be depicted as normal sized, but they get the bodybuilder/pro wrestler (depending on the artist) physique, which is not a typical fantasy sex object for most women.

The guys are sexualized, sure, but not as sex objects for woman, but as idealized forms of what many males think women would want. Bodybuilding competitions are staged primarily for the entertainment of other men.

Gilda

[Drakonnen]

I agree with you Gilda. I also think its more to play to how guys want to see themselves rather than to attract female readers, which is probably why you don't see too many half naked male characters running around on a regular basis, unlike our favorite superheroines.

[Noah Johnson]

I notice that when women do have the hots for superheroes, it tends to be the less-bodybuilder ones, and it tends to be ones with interesting characterizations.

Of course, it's often ones who fall into various archetypes women fall for too often, like the Bad Boy, the Strong Silent Type, the Wounded Guy, and so on...

[CanaryNoir]

Of course, it's often ones who fall into various archetypes women fall for too often, like the Bad Boy, the Strong Silent Type, the Wounded Guy, and so on...

And that's why women read manga!

Some women, of course, would buy comics just for the half-naked dudes (not so much me -- I will stubbornly insist on plot), but the real swoon factor is a Man Who Listens or Man Who Only Has Eyes For You or Man Who Sees How Special You Are When No One Else Does.

And THEN there's Batman... ;)

[Grazzt]

And that's why women read manga!

Some women, of course, would buy comics just for the half-naked dudes (not so much me -- I will stubbornly insist on plot), but the real swoon factor is a Man Who Listens or Man Who Only Has Eyes For You or Man Who Sees How Special You Are When No One Else Does.

You forgot the best manga archetype: Man Who Has Sex With Other Men.

[CanaryNoir]

You forgot the best manga archetype: Man Who Has Sex With Other Men.

I didn't forget; I omitted on purpose 'cause that's not one of my swoon factors. And it's ALL about me! ;)

...or was that an awkward heterosexual assertion...

[Noah Johnson]

You forgot the best manga archetype: Man Who Has Sex With Other Men.
Ah, yaoi. The porn about lesbian relationships (usually butch-femme, if we have a VERY generous definition of butch) except that both ladies are equipped with no boobs and the cutest little non-threatening male genitalia ever...

[Grazzt]

Ah, yaoi. The porn about lesbian relationships (usually butch-femme, if we have a VERY generous definition of butch) except that both ladies are equipped with no boobs and the cutest little non-threatening male genitalia ever...

I don't know, I've seen manga style artwork with fairly large penises. But then again, maybe it stops being actual yaoi when the penises get past a certain size.

[CanaryNoir]

If you're seeing the genitalia, you are most likely discussing hentai. pervs. :cool:

[ChadtheH]

...or was that an awkward heterosexual assertion...

Correct! I'm calling a penalty on the play here, five yards for heterosexual assertions. Another five for this one -- sexuality sells books because everyone, male and female, wants to see a 17-year-old Swedish-looking ingenue put it out there. Reasons may not all be for lust, but it happens.

As for the rest of you, no penalty. It is my considered judgment that you are all quite gay.