Recommend DC-Era Kirby

[pennywisdom]

My main exposure to Jack Kirby is his work at Stan Lee-era Marvel (Fantastic Four, Avengers, etc.).

I never really got into the "Fourth World" titles he did at DC, such as Mister Miracle and New Gods.

How would you rate his early 70's work at DC when compared to his work at Marvel? Are these titles collected in convenient editions? Because there's no way I'm going to be able to dig up comics that old.

I imagine these books would be even better than the stuff he did at Marvel, because at DC he was given free-range to write and create as well as do artwork, so the extra creative room could only help the quality of the books, right?

[Kan-Man]

My main exposure to Jack Kirby is his work at Stan Lee-era Marvel (Fantastic Four, Avengers, etc.).

I never really got into the "Fourth World" titles he did at DC, such as Mister Miracle and New Gods.

How would you rate his early 70's work at DC when compared to his work at Marvel? Are these titles collected in convenient editions? Because there's no way I'm going to be able to dig up comics that old.

I imagine these books would be even better than the stuff he did at Marvel, because at DC he was given free-range to write and create as well as do artwork, so the extra creative room could only help the quality of the books, right?

DC just announced they're releasing a New Gods Omnibus in 2007. It's a four volume, hardcover set supposedly of everything Kirby did related to the New Gods (including appearances in other titles like Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen).

I think previous to this, the TPB's have been in black and white and I don't know how complete they were.

I'm going to leave the quality debate to others who know their stuff better than I do. My brother used to collect them when we were kids, but he grew up to be a lawyer so you've got to be careful with this stuff. :D

[Sir Tim Drake]

I love Kirby's DC work. It's a little crude and confusing, but it positively radiates passion, vitality and raw power. Kirby's creativity was a force of nature.

The Fourth World series is the pinnacle of his DC work, of course, but I really like Kamandi as well. I haven't read very much of Omac and The Demon.

[JKCarrier]

My favorite DC-era Kirby is OMAC, which unfortunately has never been reprinted. Ditto for THE DEMON. But the NEW GODS and KAMANDI stuff is wonderful too, and certainly recommended.

KOBRA, KUNG-FU FIGHTER, JUSTICE INC., and DINGBATS OF DANGER STREET, you can probably live without. :D

[scratchie]

OMAC is really good. The Fourth World stuff is great, athough not to everybody's tastes. DC let Kirby's imagination run wild, and while the result was a spectacular panorama of ideas (beautifully drawn, of course), it sometimes left a little to be desired in terms of coherency. The main storyline went on for 11 issues before two of the titles got cancelled, and even up to that point, Kirby had implied far more than he had actually revealed, so things were kind of murky in terms of the overall storyline.

That said, it's still some of his best work, and the artwork (especially in New Gods) is fantastic. I was a little less impressed by the artwork in OMAC, but the storyline is a lot more coherent in that one.

To the original poster: Kirby's Jimmy Olsen stories have been reprinted in color, but the other Fourth World stories have only (until now) been printed in sub-par black & white. There are hardcover omnibus versions coming out but those will be expensive.

The actual comics themselves, though, are not so rare as you might suppose. The hobby of "comic collecting" was already in full swing by the time these things were published, so there were lots of copies bought and stored away, and if you're not looking for "Very Fine" or "Near Mint" copies, you can sometimes find them fairly cheap. Getting three or four issues of any of the Fourth World titles would be a good way to get your feet wet before diving in and purchasing an entire omnibus edition.

[matt levin]

Kamandi fan here. I find it the most comprehensive, and comprehendable-- heh, that is, the story line wanders a lot, but then, that's suitable to the story in which the lead character wanders a lot--and the characters are clearly defined, the artwork just lovely, the ideas, if not wholly new'n'original are suitable and workable. Y'gotta like talking tigers, though; it's an animal-run world now, humans the lowly creatures of Planet of the Apes.

I suggest Kamandi.

Matt

[berk]

The New Gods
Mister Miracle
The Forever People
The Demon
Omac
Kamandi

all the above are pretty much essential reading, IMO, with the possible exception of Kamandi, only because it's the one I'm least familiar with.

[Jonathan Bogart]

I'd actually recommend The Demon first, but tastes certainly vary.

The Fourth World stuff is magnificent, but incomplete. Still, it's wonderful, bigger and bolder and more expansive than anything Kirby did with Marvel. It doesn't have Lee's humanizing show-biz touches, and it doesn't have the hefty pop-culture charge that forty years of the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, Iron Man, and the rest have bestowed onto 60s Marvel. But it's pure undistilled Kirby, and that's a better thing in my book than the mere great entertainment that the Marvel material represents.

Mr. Miracle is my favorite of the Fourth World titles, perhaps because it's more self-contained than the others, and perhaps simply because of Barda. (People say Kirby couldn't draw women, but they're wrong.)

Kamandi and Omac are also good; you can't really go wrong with anything Kirby did between, oh, 1945 and 1985.

[MWGallaher]

Don't overlook Kirby's work on The Losers. He did some excellent stuff there, and I fully expect a collection of it to come in the next year or two. I skipped it at the time, not being interested enough in war comics, but I came to regret that. Kirby war comics were not like typical DC war comics, by any stretch of the imagination.

[ata5d]

I find the plotting and dialogue in all of them to be a bit silly. The artwork on the other hand is often mind-melting, and is often enough to make you forget about the awkward stories. NEW GODS is my favorite of the bunch. MISTER MIRACLE has some cool concepts but every issue ends the same way...talk about Deus Ex Machina.

Also, these are not difficult to find in back issues. I have near-complete runs of DC Kirby I put together from $2 back issue bins.

You mentioned that you're familiar with the Lee/Kirby FF and AVENGERS...if you've never read the Lee/Kirby THOR I would recommend that over Kirby's DC work. It contains the sprawling stories and cosmic concepts you may be looking for.

[pennywisdom]

DC just announced they're releasing a New Gods Omnibus in 2007. It's a four volume, hardcover set supposedly of everything Kirby did related to the New Gods (including appearances in other titles like Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen).

I think previous to this, the TPB's have been in black and white and I don't know how complete they were.
Thanks for the info. I'll keep that in mind.

I love Kirby's DC work. It's a little crude and confusing, but it positively radiates passion, vitality and raw power. Kirby's creativity was a force of nature.
That's pretty much what I'm looking for. Reading his work at Marvel, we see what he's capable of within the confines of a very story-oriented and character-oriented setting. That's definitely great but I'm more interested in seeing how far he went in a purely concept-oriented setting. Just Kirby letting his purest creative energies out on the page.

OMAC is really good. The Fourth World stuff is great, athough not to everybody's tastes. DC let Kirby's imagination run wild, and while the result was a spectacular panorama of ideas (beautifully drawn, of course), it sometimes left a little to be desired in terms of coherency. The main storyline went on for 11 issues before two of the titles got cancelled, and even up to that point, Kirby had implied far more than he had actually revealed, so things were kind of murky in terms of the overall storyline.

That said, it's still some of his best work, and the artwork (especially in New Gods) is fantastic.
Duly noted. I bet it's a wild freaking ride, even if the scripting is a bit loose.

To the original poster: Kirby's Jimmy Olsen stories have been reprinted in color, but the other Fourth World stories have only (until now) been printed in sub-par black & white. There are hardcover omnibus versions coming out but those will be expensive.

The actual comics themselves, though, are not so rare as you might suppose. The hobby of "comic collecting" was already in full swing by the time these things were published, so there were lots of copies bought and stored away, and if you're not looking for "Very Fine" or "Near Mint" copies, you can sometimes find them fairly cheap. Getting three or four issues of any of the Fourth World titles would be a good way to get your feet wet before diving in and purchasing an entire omnibus edition.
I'll look into the possibility of buying some back issues. When I first started this thread, I mentioned not being able to pick up back issues because I thought anything that old would either be rapidly disintegrating due to aging or on sale for $1,000 and encased in protective plastic for the rest of time. If they're still cheap and in readable condition, I'll check it out.

Kamandi fan here. I find it the most comprehensive, and comprehendable-- heh, that is, the story line wanders a lot, but then, that's suitable to the story in which the lead character wanders a lot--and the characters are clearly defined, the artwork just lovely, the ideas, if not wholly new'n'original are suitable and workable. Y'gotta like talking tigers, though; it's an animal-run world now, humans the lowly creatures of Planet of the Apes.

I suggest Kamandi.
I might check that out. Thanks.

Mr. Miracle is my favorite of the Fourth World titles, perhaps because it's more self-contained than the others, and perhaps simply because of Barda. (People say Kirby couldn't draw women, but they're wrong.)
I think that character's interesting, so I might get that first.

Don't overlook Kirby's work on The Losers. He did some excellent stuff there, and I fully expect a collection of it to come in the next year or two. I skipped it at the time, not being interested enough in war comics, but I came to regret that. Kirby war comics were not like typical DC war comics, by any stretch of the imagination.
How were they different? War comics always seemed a lot alike to me.

You mentioned that you're familiar with the Lee/Kirby FF and AVENGERS...if you've never read the Lee/Kirby THOR I would recommend that over Kirby's DC work. It contains the sprawling stories and cosmic concepts you may be looking for.
Yes, I'm familiar with FF and Avengers. I never really got into Thor that much, but your recommendation makes it sound like something I'd love.

Thanks for the recommendations and opinions, everyone. Any other thoughts?

[Babylon23]

The Fourth World stuff ranks as some of my absolute favourite comics. The sheer energy and creativity in these titles is amazing, as is the epic scope of the tale. The idea of an ongoing story carried through multiple titles was almost unheard of at the time, and Kirby really unleashes in these books. I'd say the creativty here is the equal of the Lee/Kirby renaissance (FF & Thor).

OMAC is a fun read, full of interesting sci-fi ideas. It's also interesting seeing Kirby's predictions of the future. The book also contains some fascinating social commentary.

Kamandi reads a lot like Planet of the Apes, but quickly branches off into it's own world. Once again, Kirby takes a pre-existing idea and really runs with it. This is also probably his most accessible work for DC.

Overall, if you love exciting, creative, energetic and wildly bizarre comics, then you can't go wrong with any of these titles.

[Aaron King]

How were they different? War comics always seemed a lot alike to me.


I just read over in the Kanigher/Kirby thread that Kirby based a lot of his work in The Losers on things he'd experienced in the war. Kanigher, on the other hand, was 4F.

Edit: Oh, and another "yea" for the Fourth World titles and the OMAC/Kamandi post-apocalyptic titles.

[Simon Garth]

I imagine these books would be even better than the stuff he did at Marvel, because at DC he was given free-range to write

Some of us would not consider that a plus point!

[shaxper]

I've become a huge fan of Kirby's work in the '70s over the past year. I'm a little more than halfway through the original New Gods run at this point, and "wow". I wasn't sure I loved it at first, but "The Pact" really won me over.

I haven't read the rest of the fourth world stuff yet, though I did try Forever People #1 and really didn't enjoy it. I understand Kirby was going for another Newsboy Legion type of team, but it just wasn't working for me. I've yet to try Mister Miracle, though, and that seems like it might be an excellent series.

I'm also a HUGE Kamandi fan. Those issues are packed with sheer fantastic imagination. What impresses me most about that series is how Jack will create an amazing sci-fi premise or super-compelling character in one issue, and then have Kamandi move on in the next issue, never turning back. Anyone of those premises could have been expanded to fill an entire comic book series by themselves, yet Jack just discards them and moves on to his next brilliant idea. In his 30+ issue run, he never seems to run out of these fantastic premises. Kamandi's world is always full of an exhilerating sense of wonder. You're never able to predict where Kamandi's travels will take you next. For sheer creative output, Kamandi is Jack's best work in my opinion. It never ceases to dazzle me with its myriad of amazing concepts and stunning visuals.

In order, I suppose my favorite '70s Kirby works (thus far) are:

New Gods
Kamandi
Eternals
The Demon


In general, I think it's safe to say that Jack is more succesful at building worlds and universes than he is at building characters. Though Orion and Darkseid definitely stand out at times, characters like Kamandi, Ben Boxer, Ikkarus, Jason Blood, Etrigon, etc. are all generally pretty flat. Their thoughts and actions rarely surprise you or affect you as a reader in a meaningful way. They're blank characters going through the motions in taking you to an exotic new world of pseudo-gods, space gods, post-atomic horrors, ancient magic and demons, or whatever else. Kirby's strengths seem to lie in premise and art. The actual plotting, writing, and characterization often a feel a bit more strewn together.

[rick]

I can't recommend Kamandi enough.

It is certainly one of my favorite Kirby works ever.

Both the Demon and OMAC are great fun too.

[drinkblatzbeer]

yeah, i don't know what there is reprinted, though if they do a New Gods omnibus i am for sure going to pick it up...

the problem with alot of the originals, over time the colors have bled between pages...so that makes some rough...
also, i don't feel the inking and coloring in alot of these books did him justice...

that being said, the first issue of kamandi is great...i think some of the most breathtaking kirby stuff yet, and it made it so much sweeter to see the opening splash in the masters of american comics exhibit...

[shaxper]

I think the art for Kamandi, in particular, was always incredible. The inking and coloring always seemed to compliment it perfectly, and I think that was largely thanks to the fact that Jack's drawings for Kamandi were a lot simpler - open spaces and lots of light resulting in fewer lines on the paper.

[Reptisaurus!]

In general, I think it's safe to say that Jack is more succesful at building worlds and universes than he is at building characters. Though Orion and Darkseid definitely stand out at times, characters like Kamandi, Ben Boxer, Ikkarus, Jason Blood, Etrigon, etc. are all generally pretty flat. Their thoughts and actions rarely surprise you or affect you as a reader in a meaningful way. They're blank characters going through the motions in taking you to an exotic new world of pseudo-gods, space gods, post-atomic horrors, ancient magic and demons, or whatever else. Kirby's strengths seem to lie in premise and art. The actual plotting, writing, and characterization often a feel a bit more strewn together.


I don't look at Kirby characters as... well, characters, so much. They're somewhere between pure Symbols and mythological representations of cultural values.

Kirby never really clicked with me until I took a few semesters of Mythology in college.

[benday-dot]

I don't look at Kirby characters as... well, characters, so much. They're somewhere between pure Symbols and mythological representations of cultural values.

Kirby never really clicked with me until I took a few semesters of Mythology in college.

I agree Repti, and yet somehow his work I find is always brimming with such humanity... mythollogically awe-inspiring for sure, but not just as cyphers. Real vitality is present.

My order is

1. Fourth World

sub-order...
New Gods
Mister Miracle
Forever People

2. Kamandi
3. Jimmy Olsen

I just got the whole Demon series through e-bay, and I'm loving the look of it, but I can't rank it until I've read it. Omac I'm planning on nailing soon.

MW... have you heard somewhere that Losers is going to be reprinted... I truly hope so!

[shaxper]

I just got the whole Demon series through e-bay, and I'm loving the look of it, but I can't rank it until I've read it.




I adored the first two issues, but felt the premise ran thin shortly after that. It's been a while since I've read, so it's hard for me to put my finger on what changed. Mostly, I found the character of Jason Blood / Etrigon - a displaced character from the past with little memory and on a desperate search for purpose, more intriguing in those first two issues, while the duo became more generically polarized and purposeless after. Also, while Jason/Etrigon was on a clear mission to stop Morgan LeFaye in the first two issues, the premise seems to wander starting in issue #3, with Jason/Etrigon randomly running into all sorts of demonic enemies that have nothing to do with his primary mission nor sense of purpose. Klarion's first appearance was quite memorable in issue #7, but that was all due to Klarion, with little help from Jason or Etrigon.

[jam]

Well, heck, yes, I am a big Jack Kirby fan!!!

(But oh how I wish he'd had Stan as an editor on his New Gods epic).

I've got the b/w Fourth World paperbacks, of course. I'd like to buy the omnibus but it'll just be too expensive. (Which is why I haven't bought Marvel's "Eternals" reprint). (By the way, I hope they can do some "digital remastering" to make sure we get the best possible reproduction of the King's work.)

It's hard to underestimate the impact Kirby's Fourth World had at DC, though perhaps not at the time he was producing it. I certainly don't think he was supported as fully as he should've been. Try to imagine DC without the Fourth World .. they just never had anything like it before or since. It gives a great weight of mythos to the DC Universe.

I'd like to see some affordable collections of Kamandi and OMAC as well, please?

[berk]

I don't look at Kirby characters as... well, characters, so much. They're somewhere between pure Symbols and mythological representations of cultural values.

Kirby never really clicked with me until I took a few semesters of Mythology in college.Exactly. I always point to Carl Jung's article "Psychology and Literature" as one of the most interesting descriptions of the difference between what Kirby was doing in much of his work and what most people expect from a story in terms of characterisation, dialogue etc. Briefly, Jung talklks about two kinds of literature: one he terms 'psychological' and the other 'visionary'. Psychological literature is concerned with presenting a convincingly realistic picture of a fictional character's psychology. Great care is taken to make the character's motivations, actions, dialogue, etc true to life, even if, as in most superhero comix for example, the external action is based in fantasy and wish-fulfillment. More common examples can be found in mainstream literature; most literary novels, for example, are concerned with human nature and showing us examples of it in their characters, hopefully in a very skillful and entertaining manner, and in such a way as to present us with new insights about the human psyche and how it interacts with itself, with other psyches, with its environment, with ideas, emotions, circumstances, etc, etc.

Visionary literature, on the other hand, is as Reptisaurius described it: the characters are symbols (not allegories, another useful distinction Jung points out); figures whose characteristics and actions tell us something about the nature of reality by operating on a symbolic level; they aren't intended to serve as true to life portraits of individual human psychologies, although they my well make, symbolically, a statement about human psychology or human nature, among many other aspects of reality. The most obvious examples are found in mythological material.

Kirby, expecially in The Eternals and The New Gods, was creating visionary, not psychological art. Until you grasp that distinction you'll never understand or be capable of appreciating what Kirby was doing with those concepts.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Kirby, expecially in The Eternals and The New Gods, was creating visionary, not psychological art. Until you grasp that distinction you'll never understand or be capable of appreciating what Kirby was doing with those concepts.
I just wanted to point out that he was doing this intentionally, too. He'd read his Campbell and his Jung; he was trying to create a fully-developed twentieth-century American mythology. Read as a mythic commentary on Cold War America (it's possible, though not advisable, to see New Genesis as the USA and Apokolips as the USSR), the Fourth World series is brilliant. I think Kirby came nearer to providing a coherent modern mythology than anyone besides maybe Tolkien. Or would have. Sigh.

[T GUy]

jam:Well, heck, yes, I am a big Jack Kirby fan!!!

(But oh how I wish he'd had Stan as an editor on his New Gods epic).
Obviously not a big enough Kirby fan to want to see his work as he intended it.


Reptisaurus:
I don't look at Kirby characters as... well, characters, so much. They're somewhere between pure Symbols and mythological representations of cultural values.

Kirby never really clicked with me until I took a few semesters of Mythology in college.

Yeah, you have to have the right background. A school which gives you Eng. Lit. but not even Latin or R. S. is useless for this.

This may explain the lack of understanding of Kirby's work out there in the world.

On the other hand, there's his version of 'The Losers,' which always struck me as realistic in a sense. And given that I was about to add a qualification to that sentence, perhaps we should just forget it.

[shaxper]

Just curious -

Aside from the Fourth World stuff, has Jack ever indicated which of his creations were his favorites? I sometimes wonder, while reading these series, which ones Jack was truly invested in and which ones just weren't working out the way he'd hoped, or felt like pale immitations of the cancelled series that he'd really wanted to work on.

[scratchie]

I don't think I've seen mention of this on the Classics board, and it certainly seems appropriate to this conversation, so I thought I'd mention that the current storyline in Ultimate Fantastic Four is an obvious homage to Kirby's Fourth World work. It starts with a group of aliens, all with different powers, who appear on a funky space-cycle in the middle of Saks Fifth Avenue in Manhattan. The Fantastic Four get involved in a cosmic war between them and a much nastier group of aliens from their own galaxy/dimension/neighborhood.

So far (issue 3 of 6 came out last week, the story is called "God War"), it's been an entertaining little space opera, obviously inspired by a LOT of classic Kirby, without being just a slavish imitation. Worth a look if you want to check out something new, and the art by Pasqual Ferry won't hurt your eyes either.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I just wanted to point out that he was doing this intentionally, too. He'd read his Campbell and his Jung; he was trying to create a fully-developed twentieth-century American mythology. Read as a mythic commentary on Cold War America (it's possible, though not advisable, to see New Genesis as the USA and Apokolips as the USSR), the Fourth World series is brilliant. I think Kirby came nearer to providing a coherent modern mythology than anyone besides maybe Tolkien. Or would have. Sigh.

That's surprising. Did Kirby actually go on record as saying that he was inspired by Campbell and Jung?

[Jukka Laine of Finland]

When did Jack Kirby decide to leave DC? He didn't leave when they had Murphy Anderson to draw the heads of Superman. He didn't leave when they cancelled The New Gods and The Forever People.

I guess he had a contract of five years. Or something like that.

[benday-dot]

Exactly. I always point to Carl Jung's article "Psychology and Literature" as one of the most interesting descriptions of the difference between what Kirby was doing in much of his work and what most people expect from a story in terms of characterisation, dialogue etc. Briefly, Jung talklks about two kinds of literature: one he terms 'psychological' and the other 'visionary'. Psychological literature is concerned with presenting a convincingly realistic picture of a fictional character's psychology. Great care is taken to make the character's motivations, actions, dialogue, etc true to life, even if, as in most superhero comix for example, the external action is based in fantasy and wish-fulfillment. More common examples can be found in mainstream literature; most literary novels, for example, are concerned with human nature and showing us examples of it in their characters, hopefully in a very skillful and entertaining manner, and in such a way as to present us with new insights about the human psyche and how it interacts with itself, with other psyches, with its environment, with ideas, emotions, circumstances, etc, etc.

Visionary literature, on the other hand, is as Reptisaurius described it: the characters are symbols (not allegories, another useful distinction Jung points out); figures whose characteristics and actions tell us something about the nature of reality by operating on a symbolic level; they aren't intended to serve as true to life portraits of individual human psychologies, although they my well make, symbolically, a statement about human psychology or human nature, among many other aspects of reality. The most obvious examples are found in mythological material.

Kirby, expecially in The Eternals and The New Gods, was creating visionary, not psychological art. Until you grasp that distinction you'll never understand or be capable of appreciating what Kirby was doing with those concepts.

I am thinking principally about the Glory Boat issue (#6) in which the humans featured are wracked with issues of psychological turmoil regarding a pacifism versus violence debate. Action vs. diplomacy. Admittedly it, to an extent, also comes across as pseudo-symbolic struggle enmeshed in and mirrored by the greater struggle between Lightray's and Orion's own difference's of approach. But there is also present elsewhere the very visceral human vs the other, flesh and blood vs alien, a bloodless weight of symbol and mythology pitted Kirby's most tangible of New God's chararacters. The struggle comes across well in the Death Wish of Terrible Turpin issue (#8). Here despite the incomprehensible shadow of the gods, spread over the world in a manner representative of Kirby at his most visionary, we do get a chance to look into one of Kirby's most human and realized characters, one who goes beyond the merely symbolic. Based on Jack Kirby himself, it has been said, Dan Turpin is a man clearly out of his league, but determined to keep it real, as it were, and humanize a conflict clearly beyond his ken. I admit he ranges dangeroulsly close to that symbolic world insofar as he remains a bit of an isolated case, almost an exception to the larger representations. but I suggest it is very much there.

I'll also mention that I believe Kirby (especially when paired with Lee) was also always trying to interject more of the human and psychological motivations of character into his tales to balance and, in a sense, reinforce his most cosmic and alien scenarios, which by nature have a dehumanizing tendency. This created a wonderful tension, which generated much of the power and force of the King's best and most memorable dramas. This comes across especially well in the Fantastic Four, and also some of the Mighty Thor issues, where Thor has a nice interplay with Jane Foster, for awhile emphasizing his earthly bonds. Even in Eternals and Forever People Kirby has a nascent, but underdeveloped, cast of human hangers-on.

Thanks Berk for the nice insight into Kirby!

[Jonathan Bogart]

That's surprising. Did Kirby actually go on record as saying that he was inspired by Campbell and Jung?
Oop, time to backpedal. I can't find the reference I was thinking of now, but apparently he'd done quite a bit of reading on mythology by the late 60s. I extrapolated the two most popular names in the field. I don't think "inspired by" would be the right phrase, though; everything Kirby did was sui generis, although his genius was also fed by everything else he took in, whether high art or popular culture (as though there's a divide).

[Allan Harvey]

When did Jack Kirby decide to leave DC? He didn't leave when they had Murphy Anderson to draw the heads of Superman. He didn't leave when they cancelled The New Gods and The Forever People.

I guess he had a contract of five years. Or something like that.

Correct: he left DC when his contract expired.

Apparently, he did consider leaving after the cancellation of the New Gods and Forever People, as was reported in the fan press at the time. Ultimately, however, he decided to honour his contract. Much of his late DC work was done purely to fulfill the terms of that contract, rather than being material he particularly wanted to work on (Losers, Kung Fu Fighter, Sandman, etc.). It can't have been a happy time for Kirby -- and I think the work reflects that. His art got a lot more solid once he returned to Marvel.

[jam]

jam:
Obviously not a big enough Kirby fan to want to see his work as he intended it.


Yeah, I derserved that.

Look -- without opening old wounds or old arguments -- I completely respect and admire the King as a creator and as an artist, a very unique artist without whom we may never had had the Marvel Universe.

His writing -- it seems to me -- is very enthusiastic, and I just feel if it could've been "tempered" somewhat by a good editor .. it would've been better. And you might be right -- if it had been "tampered" with, it might not have been the full Kirby. And nobody wants that. (Heck I'm still fuming over the paste-overs DC did!)

I'm sorry if you disagree with me, if I've made you angry in any way, in saying that. It's just my personal opinion. It's not even an informed opinion.

[scratchie]

His writing -- it seems to me -- is very enthusiastic, and I just feel if it could've been "tempered" somewhat by a good editor .. it would've been better. I agree with this 100%. I don't think it makes me any less of a Kirby fan to say that his writing might have had a little room for improvement.

[Rob Allen]

I was in the room at the Marvel Comics Convention in 1975 when Jack's return was announced. The joyous crowd's ovation nearly blew the roof off the building. It was a very special moment.

[benday-dot]

I agree with this 100%. I don't think it makes me any less of a Kirby fan to say that his writing might have had a little room for improvement.

I on the other hand largely do like Kirby's writing. I think it suits his storytelling well. Some criticisms thrown at his dialogue are that it is stilted and unrealistic. That he needed a strong editor to reign in some his excesses or "enthusiasm." These are fair comments, however to me his writing, in all its rather larger than life expressiveness, gave it its very comic book feel, its panache if you well. I guess I just think it suits the grandeur of his art, and the myths he was making. He's definitely not a Bendis, with all those post-modern irony laden, movie sounding speech balloons. Kirby, I don't think ever really went for the Relevance thing, even while always trying to write relevant stories, if I'm making any sense.

[MWGallaher]

I think Kirby's writing suffers some because comics readers come back to that work more often than we do his contemporaries. There were comics writers doing work in 1972 whose dialogue and narration I find far more painful to read now, but I don't open those books nearly as often as I do my Fourth World collections.
"Others were worse" isn't as solid a defense as I want to offer, though...I think Kirby's scripting weaknesses were more than mitigated by his strengths. When you read the best of his work--for me, the scene in New Gods #5 where Orion slaughters Slig of the Deep Six--the awkward attempts at casual and hip conversation seem quite forgivable.
Kirby was not the master of breezy conversation that we think of Stan Lee as being (and Stan doesn't fare all that well when I look back on him in that regard). But Kirby brought such a weight and power to so much of his scripting, a sense of reverence, of authority, that I might imagine would come from a really good rabbi relating the tales of Moses.

[scratchie]

I on the other hand largely do like Kirby's writing. I think it suits his storytelling well. Some criticisms thrown at his dialogue are that it is stilted and unrealistic. That he needed a strong editor to reign in some his excesses or "enthusiasm." I've come to like Jack's dialogue. Obviously it suits the mythic stories he was trying to create even if it sounds "funny" to our modern ears.

I think an editor would have been useful more in terms of keeping him focused. I mean, after 33 issues of the Fourth World series, the reader was just barely getting a sense of the overall picture he was trying to present. If this were a modern, six-issue miniseries, the first 33 issues of the Fourth World might constitute the first two, maybe three issues.

It's great to sit here in 2006 and speculate about what Kirby might have done if he had another 33 issues and two years to work on the story, but it's all speculation. He may not have had a clue in the world where he was headed.

The best service an editor could have performed, IMO, would be to keep him focused, and to make sure that important plot points were introduced a bit earlier and not abandoned two issues later.

This might have been an impossibility in 1971. The editors of the time might have only known how to force Kirby's work into the "standard comic book" mold, which would have been a shame. But a really good editor could have helped him focus on the story a little more, which would have given us (the comic book historians of the future) more of a chance to read the "meat" of Kirby's story, while, at the same time, giving the comic book readers of the past more of a "hook" to get them to keep buying the comics, which would have helped keep the titles from getting cancelled after 11 issues.

[benday-dot]

The best service an editor could have performed, IMO, would be to keep him focused, and to make sure that important plot points were introduced a bit earlier and not abandoned two issues later.

Yeah, I suspect you're right here Scratchie. Sometimes it seems to me, while reading those 11 issues of New Gods and Forever People and even Mister Miracle too before it rather spun off on its own, that Kirby was inundated with such a breadth of vision and idea that he was just jumping to get it all down. I remember reading some interviews with Evanier, and recall how every now and then he and Steve Sherman would drop a suggestion or two to Kirby in terms of developing and solidifying an already laid out plot thread. Jack would jump on it, thinking its great, but when the book came in for print all evidence of such a suggestion was absent. Its not that he would have suddenly thought it was no good, but ideas seemed to come feverishly to the King, and maybe something else just took the place-- because it just seemed too fantastic to delay-- of anything in terms of editorial pacing that Evanier and Sherman might have offered.

I know Kirby had planned to lay down his vision and really get his epic saga rolling before eventually handing it off to a new creative team. He would them assume the role of Fourth World Godfather in a sense. Maybe he wanted to get as much of his conception down before such a turnover took place. Or maybe the King had some sort of precognitive abilities, and saw the spectre of cancellation looming over his creation, and just decided to flame out with a flurry of breathless vision and concept.

Yeah, who knows what might have been... (other than Hunger Dogs, which I have always been too afraid to buy:eek: )