Defend this portrayal of Reed Richards...

[Norrin Radd]

I don't know...I hear now that Reed has always been somewhat of a jerk.

I've read all of Lee/Kirby FF, most of John Byrne FF, and quite a bit of other FF runs, and in all that time I've never got the sense that Reed would stoop to such levels.

Note, I've hardly read the FF from the nineties onward. This includes much of DeFalco's run, Claremont's, Waid's, JMS's, etc.

So, I have to ask: Is there any past occurrences that would support Reed acting this way?

[Majinlex]

Reed's always been a jerk. Just ask Billy Tucci ;)




And Norm MacDonald
http://www.zshare.net/audio/01-norm_macdonald-the_fantastic_four-mp3.html

[Gregg Helmberger]

I'm not sure this portrayal of Reed is entirely defensible. Yes, he's always been liable to focus on science first and people second, but he's never been some sort of soulless mad scientist as Millar is portraying him.

However, with the note at the end of #4, where Sue is pleading for Reed to "fix it," I get the feeling we might be getting a redemption arc in the final three issues for him. Maybe Reed is the one who will make is possible for the two sides to stop fighting?

[CapFan]

Reed's always been a jerk. Just ask Billy Tucci ;)




And Norm MacDonald
http://www.zshare.net/audio/01-norm_macdonald-the_fantastic_four-mp3.html

AAHAAHAHA! Someone needs to make a flash movie using that audio!

[roundman]

Reed's always been a jerk. Just ask Billy Tucci ;)




And Norm MacDonald
http://www.zshare.net/audio/01-norm_macdonald-the_fantastic_four-mp3.html

Does anyone ever refer to Reed as "Mr. Fantastic?" I always just call him Reed Richards.

[XPac]

Does anyone ever refer to Reed as "Mr. Fantastic?" I always just call him Reed Richards.

Certain heroes are like that. Kitty Pryde is another example. No one ever calls her Shadowcat or any of her past names... they always call her Kitty. Makes you wonder why they even bother.

As for Reed Richards potrayal... it's a BIT off at times but not significantly so. As I've argued elsewhere, here is a guy that send his entire family into outer space in a stolen untested rocket. That was day one. That tells you a lot right there.

[cbjones]

Reed's always been a jerk. Just ask Billy Tucci ;)

And Norm MacDonald
http://www.zshare.net/audio/01-norm_macdonald-the_fantastic_four-mp3.html

Hilarious! Is this from Norm's latest album?

[spyridona]

As for Reed Richards potrayal... it's a BIT off at times but not significantly so. As I've argued elsewhere, here is a guy that send his entire family into outer space in a stolen untested rocket. That was day one. That tells you a lot right there.

Actually, Sue and Johnny volunteered to go on the flight. Reed didn't ask them from what I recall. The only one originally unwilling to go was Ben Grimm, and Sue talked him into it by questioning his bravery and saying the commies would beat them if he didn't go.

[XPac]

Actually, Sue and Johnny volunteered to go on the flight. Reed didn't ask them from what I recall. The only one originally unwilling to go was Ben Grimm, and Sue talked him into it by questioning his bravery and saying the commies would beat them if he didn't go.

I'm not saying he forced anyone... but the fact that he was willing to use his family and friends as guinie pigs (one of which by the way was a freaking teenager) gives you a bit of insight into his personality. Most people would not have taken the risk that he did.

[Magneto Rocks]

It's very easy to defend. I argue that there is a logical reason why this is happening, and my case occured very recently:

Authoritive Action

In AA he cared TOO MUCH about his family. He became obsessed with the notion that Doom would come back and cause them pain, and so he purposely distanced himself from them (telling Sue the kids couldn't rely on her) and whatnot. This was so he could trap Doctor Doom in a void with himself where his family could never be hurt again?

The result:

Ben died.

So I argue that this is a case of the very OPPOSITE. When Reed goes out of his way to care for his family, it always ends upwith them getting hurt or worse. He's persuaded himself that he needs to distance himself for real sometimes, that when he tries to protect them above all they are hurt.

Reed has so ingrained this in himself that when he does become really obsessed with work, as in this case, it is for several reasons- he is distancing himself from the pain of Johnny leaving and his strained marriage, and is unconsciously making things worse instead of better. This has etched itself deeply in Reed's mind.

So yes, I do think it's easy to defend Reed's current portrayal. He is at heart a hero - a FLAWED hero but a hero nonetheless.

[spyridona]

Outside of comic books, yeah, they would. But we have to remember that in the 60s mentality for comic books and writing stories isn't the same as today's comics. I've noticed in First Family they've made Johnny seem older than he was in FF# 1. Besides, I'm pretty sure most women in the 1960s would not have volunteered themselves and their brother to their boyfriend's science experiments.

Johnny being so young on this trip is a hang up of the silver age writing style and mentality. These stories were fun, but they weren't all that deep as far as the plot goes. Things had to be solved within a few issues and Lee had no idea when he was starting out that this book would last for over 40 years.

[Slade.]

Outside of comic books, yeah, they would. But we have to remember that in the 60s mentality for comic books and writing stories isn't the same as today's comics. I've noticed in First Family they've made Johnny seem older than he was in FF# 1. Besides, I'm pretty sure most women in the 1960s would not have volunteered themselves and their brother to their boyfriend's science experiments.

Johnny being so young on this trip is a hang up of the silver age writing style and mentality. These stories were fun, but they weren't all that deep as far as the plot goes. Things had to be solved within a few issues and Lee had no idea when he was starting out that this book would last for over 40 years.

hahaha yea people still want characters to act like they did in the 60's. which is just wrong. their attitudes's and personalitys somewhat reflected that time, so now they should reflect this time.

and i always thought he was a jerk

[Gregg Helmberger]

It's very easy to defend. I argue that there is a logical reason why this is happening, and my case occured very recently:

Authoritive Action

In AA he cared TOO MUCH about his family. He became obsessed with the notion that Doom would come back and cause them pain, and so he purposely distanced himself from them (telling Sue the kids couldn't rely on her) and whatnot. This was so he could trap Doctor Doom in a void with himself where his family could never be hurt again?

The result:

Ben died.

So I argue that this is a case of the very OPPOSITE. When Reed goes out of his way to care for his family, it always ends upwith them getting hurt or worse. He's persuaded himself that he needs to distance himself for real sometimes, that when he tries to protect them above all they are hurt.

Reed has so ingrained this in himself that when he does become really obsessed with work, as in this case, it is for several reasons- he is distancing himself from the pain of Johnny leaving and his strained marriage, and is unconsciously making things worse instead of better. This has etched itself deeply in Reed's mind.

So yes, I do think it's easy to defend Reed's current portrayal. He is at heart a hero - a FLAWED hero but a hero nonetheless.

You make an interesting argument. If this is the case, I wish it were explained a bit in the FF title, but I can see this to some extent at least. Nicely done, you helped explain something that was one of the major sticking points in CW for me. :)

[XPac]

hahaha yea people still want characters to act like they did in the 60's. which is just wrong. their attitudes's and personalitys somewhat reflected that time, so now they should reflect this time.

and i always thought he was a jerk

Well, Reeds wife/girlfriend was the Invisilbe Woman. It's such an obvious metaphor there, they almost HAD to write reed the way they they did I suppose.

[heretic]

I don't know...I hear now that Reed has always been somewhat of a jerk.

I've read all of Lee/Kirby FF, most of John Byrne FF, and quite a bit of other FF runs, and in all that time I've never got the sense that Reed would stoop to such levels.

Note, I've hardly read the FF from the nineties onward. This includes much of DeFalco's run, Claremont's, Waid's, JMS's, etc.

So, I have to ask: Is there any past occurrences that would support Reed acting this way?
Aside from when he was trapped in Doom's armour and the thing was buggering up his thought patterns? Nope.

HTG

[Majinlex]

Hilarious! Is this from Norm's latest album?

Yup, Norm MacDonald - Ridiculous (http://www.amazon.com/Ridiculous-Norm-MacDonald/dp/B000H7J9YE)

[Magneto Rocks]

You make an interesting argument. If this is the case, I wish it were explained a bit in the FF title, but I can see this to some extent at least. Nicely done, you helped explain something that was one of the major sticking points in CW for me. :)

Well, I'm glad I could help. I do what I can if it makes Civil War as enjoyable for others as it is for me ;)

Even if we do disagree about Millar ;)

[Gregg Helmberger]

Well, I'm glad I could help. I do what I can if it makes Civil War as enjoyable for others as it is for me ;)

Even if we do disagree about Millar ;)

We can't agree about everything. Where would the fun be in that? :D

[MakeMineMarvel]

Oh c'mon! Reed has always and will always be an a-hole! I think he secretly has a man-crush on Doom and has done everything he has done just to gain Vic's affection anyway.
Bottom line is Reed is a pompous ass.

And the Norm bit was great!

[Gregg Helmberger]

See, I've never thought of Reed as an asshole. I've thought of him as an extremely human, humane and caring guy who sometimes got too wrapped up in his own thoughts and wound up acting like a jerk toward the people he cares about most. But he's always been too willing to put everything on the line for others to be an asshole, at least in my book.

[Cosmic Book Fan]

I can hardly accept anything Reed has done so far, but up to CW 3, I could let it slide as an extreme and IMHO wrong portrayal of Reed.

CW 4 has taken things so far beyond wrong that I'll be quiting comics if they don't fix it by the end of CW.

First, 'Clor' (please don't re-open the useless 'could they possibly clone thor' disscussion) Regardless of the current real-world moral ambiguities of cloning, Reed, Tony and Hank all know what it's like to lose control of a creation with disastrous results. Arguably Hank more than anyone (ULTRON), and he's the most qualified of the three in biology. But 'Clor' and other possible clones are just such an unqualified BAD-IDEA that I can't for a second accept any ONE of them going through with it, much less all three.

And the other major problem with Reed in CW 4: showing him back at work after Sue leaves. I don't care how wrapped up in CW he is, if Sue leaves, Reed does one of two things, 1. Chases her, especially if he thinks she's getting herself into more trouble. 2. Breaks Down/Shuts Down. Sure he might get back to work eventually, but I think the most we should have seen from him in CW 4 would be trying to make breakfast for the kids.

I'll probably rant more later, but that enough for now.

[brundlefly]

Reed's always been a control freak who sees things from a scientific perspective first and is able to emotionally distance himself from other people, including his own family. His portrayal here is somewhat off and exaggerated (but then I think everone's is, including Cap and Spidey), but it's truer to his character than the way Tony Stark is being written.

[Kirk G]

I've gotta take issue with the portrayal of Reed. True, there have been some times when he's been overly concerned with technology or inventing, but that was ALWAYS tempered with concern for his teammates. Once, in FF #48, he was so consumed with the threat, that he shut himself away with the Watcher before Galactus arrives, but that was to protect his teammates form the awful truth.

It was only after the departure of Stan and Jack that we got the awful Overlord story arc, and I found Reed's portrayal of taking refuge in science to protect himself from the Overlords onslaught (pun intended) to be out of character. But then, ever since Stan departed, all the characters were out of character...both in art and in action and thought, IMHO.

I don't see Reed as being so blinded by science to ignor his teammates feelings, but I would love to hear/read/see that Psychoman or Empath or some similar mental-influence villian has been subtly shading and controlling or suggesting things for both sides to polarize. I know that Joe Q has said there is NOT a major villian hiding behind a curtain to create confusion.

We know that the mad thinker and puppet master (two winners who just can't figure out that they aren't good together yet!) have been opportunistic, but I would have thought that PM was the right villian to have controlled either Reed or Tony (or both!).

I still think the Esper or Mentallo division of SHEILD needs to come clean. Tony seemed to know that SHEILD was a hostile camp when he schooled Peter, but since then, I just get the feeling that he might be a clone as well. Why not Reed also? Has ANYONE seen him manifest his power, other than his intellect recently in CW or supporting books? I have to wonder....Clone, or no clone. How would Spidey react to this. With his experience with clones and cloning, I would think this would shove him over the edge into another camp. (There are some things I can't stand... "With great power comes great responsiblity" indeed!)

[Joe Acro]

I don't know of any example that support his current actions, but I do know of at least one that goes against it. In an issue of Spectacular Spider-Man, he says something like, "We shouldn't respond to chaos with chaos." The panel is somewhere in this forum, I think. The Registration Act is just that, though, chaos responding to chaos.

[Anthony]

It's very easy to defend. I argue that there is a logical reason why this is happening, and my case occured very recently:

Authoritive Action

In AA he cared TOO MUCH about his family. He became obsessed with the notion that Doom would come back and cause them pain, and so he purposely distanced himself from them (telling Sue the kids couldn't rely on her) and whatnot. This was so he could trap Doctor Doom in a void with himself where his family could never be hurt again?

The result:

Ben died.

So I argue that this is a case of the very OPPOSITE. When Reed goes out of his way to care for his family, it always ends upwith them getting hurt or worse. He's persuaded himself that he needs to distance himself for real sometimes, that when he tries to protect them above all they are hurt.

Reed has so ingrained this in himself that when he does become really obsessed with work, as in this case, it is for several reasons- he is distancing himself from the pain of Johnny leaving and his strained marriage, and is unconsciously making things worse instead of better. This has etched itself deeply in Reed's mind.

So yes, I do think it's easy to defend Reed's current portrayal. He is at heart a hero - a FLAWED hero but a hero nonetheless.

It's funny when two different people read the same thing and get two completely different interpretations from it.

Because when I read Authoritative Action, I see a Reed Richards' that was scarred. Reed shut himself off from his family and thought he could solve the problem completely by himself. But as always his family is what brings him through. During AA, Reed set up a sequence of events that places the FF against SHIELD (one not nearly as corrupt as the current iteration and led by Nick Fury) and basically the whole world. His obsession with Doom's inevitable return caused him to set up the rest of the FF to deal with SHIELD incoming attack against Latveria to get them out. Of course, the rest of the team didn't know exactly what Reed planned. So they get some extra time and rush back to Reed. They arrive, and save Reed from himself (something that's not a unique experience for him either)

Ben's death was not caused by his obsession with keeping his family safe, it was caused by the fact that Reed ignored his family and tried to go at it alone. A fact that he apparently didn't learn from, since he's the only one that's still doing Pro-Reg work.

This doesn't even delve into the fact that Mad Scientist Reed thinks a mind controlled clone was a good idea and not an abomination against everything he used to stand for. That's just insane.

[David O Burcham]

Point of nit-pickery, Reed Richards didn't take any of his family on the stolen rocket ride. The only family on that flight were Sue and Johnny.

[Syzygy]

I'm not sure this portrayal of Reed is entirely defensible. Yes, he's always been liable to focus on science first and people second, but he's never been some sort of soulless mad scientist as Millar is portraying him.

I think I agree with this, except I really don't find it defensible at all. He's certainly acting a lot more like Doom, the Leader, or the Mad Thinker than a superhero. Reed Richards is much wiser than to create a clone-army.

First, it's unethical, bordering on slavery.

Second, cloned heroes won't have the sense of purpose or self-awareness to resist hypnotism, brainwashing, or mind control. They'd soon become a villain-army.

(Oddly, I really loved Millar's portrayal of the Fantastic Four in Enemy Of The State.)

Anyway, there's something I like to call the Wink Factor that comes in handy when reading comics. Basically, when we see something that's wildly over-the-top and extreme (out of character, out of continuity), what is the extent to which we can just recognize how ridiculous it is, but wink at the creators and enjoy the project anyway? Maybe because we appreciate the fact that the creators are trying to hold our interest by "stretching the limits" (ha!) and doing something new?

In this instance, since I have no real investment in the Reed Richards character, I'm able to wink at this little bit of out of character idiocy, and just enjoy the series anyway.

But for a real Fantastic Four fan, yeah, I can see where that might be really difficult after this....

Peace,
Syzygy

[XPac]

Point of nit-pickery, Reed Richards didn't take any of his family on the stolen rocket ride. The only family on that flight were Sue and Johnny.

That's a good point. Reed was smart enough to at least care about the wellfare of HIS family not to inolve them in such a dangerous experimental experiment.

[CyberCoyote]

That's a good point. Reed was smart enough to at least care about the wellfare of HIS family not to inolve them in such a dangerous experimental experiment.


Boo-Hiss :)

Heck, his family at the time was just long lost Pop who'd have gone along for the ride if he were around.

Millar is writing another Authority and he's giving these characters the muddled gray morally corrupt mentality of his characters there. This is NOT Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Captain America as they've been developed over the years. It's Millar's ego turning them into mirror images of something else he's done because it worked for that project so he assumes it's the best thing to do in this one.

Creating and enslaving life, imprisoning former comrades in an alternate dimension, using technology to 'control' mass murderers to act as police (after your slave clone just went wonky and killed someone. Hmm, what's the chance of plan 'B' being bad too?). These are the actions of the villains in Marvel Comics, not the Heroes. They ARE the actions of Midnighter and company.

I'm less concerned with Millar's writing them this way than I am with Quesada and company thinking it's a good idea. Folks who enjoy this story, and there are plenty that are, the negative voices are always louder, won't mind when Marvel's heroes all become anti-heroes.

[Slade.]

When so many different poeple wirte the came title and same character over like 40 years how can you guys seriosly expect them to keep track of everything the character said and keep them exactly in the same EXACT personality as someone else did. Where's the fun in that. I mean know about consistancy but still. You're being too harsh lol Of course diferent writes will have slightly different takes on it, that's the beauty of it.

I still think UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, and given the situation they're in, it's a pretty realistic and interesting take on them so far.


If one of your friends turned around and did something dispicable you never thought they could (we've all been through this or will be eventually), would you say "wtf you're an ass i never espected this youve changed or i never knew you etc.." and would you get mad at them...or would you say "Oh WTF!!! God's such a bad writer!! that is totaly out of your character!!" lol

[Alan2099]

If one of your friends turned around and did something dispicable you never thought they could (we've all been through this or will be eventually), would you say "wtf you're an ass i never espected this youve changed or i never knew you etc.." and would you get mad at them...or would you say "Oh WTF!!! God's such a bad writer!! that is totaly out of your character!!" lol
Kurt Vonnegut had a saying for that sort of thing. “Some things only happen in real life and bad fiction."

[TheCrisisKid]

Why is Reed not acting normal? Because he's a clone.
.
..
...
SERIOUSLY!

[yeoman]

When so many different poeple wirte the came title and same character over like 40 years how can you guys seriosly expect them to keep track of everything the character said and keep them exactly in the same EXACT personality as someone else did. Where's the fun in that. I mean know about consistancy but still. You're being too harsh lol Of course diferent writes will have slightly different takes on it, that's the beauty of it.

No. I can, however, expec the writer to have a handle on what the characters have been like just prior to them using them as well as what the characters have usually been written as.

This requires five minutes on Wikipedia.

What we have here is massive characterization changes being forced in order to get the story Millar wants.

I still think UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, and given the situation they're in, it's a pretty realistic and interesting take on them so far.

Not really. Not at all. Hiring Bullseye? Making a crazed clone of a friend you know is back alive? Making clones to turn the US into a super-human police state? Trying to imprision Captain America in the Negative Zone?

I'm sorry, were we talking about Tony Stark or Baron Zemo? I can't tell anymore.

If one of your friends turned around and did something dispicable you never thought they could (we've all been through this or will be eventually), would you say "wtf you're an ass i never espected this youve changed or i never knew you etc.." and would you get mad at them...or would you say "Oh WTF!!! God's such a bad writer!! that is totaly out of your character!!" lol

I... have no idea what your point is.

The biggest difference is, we don't get to see the innermost thoughts and private actions of my friend's lives. We have seen that for the people involved in this. We have a third person limite domnicient view of their lives.

When someone you know does something you'd never expect, it's because there are aspects of them you don't know. When a fictional character does it, we call it acting out of character, because we can have a far better idea of who they are than we can ever have of anyone in the world save ourselves.

[spyridona]

Why is Reed not acting normal? Because he's a clone.
.
..
...
SERIOUSLY!


Reed!Clone is really Sinister. :cool:

[yeoman]

Reed!Clone is really Sinister. :cool:

I'm still splitting my money between Loki manipulation and Space Phantoms.

And maybe a small side bet on Alexander Luthor and the Giant Yellow Fear Demon.


OOOH! A Yellow Fear Demon possessed Space Phantom impersonating Loki impoersonating Reed Richards!

[Darth Joker]

I think that Reed has snapped. Tony too, though perhaps to a lesser degree.

You don't have a man like Bullseye working for you unless...

1) You're 100% sure that he's truly rehabilitated.

2) You're evil yourself (a la the Wilson Fisk reason).

3) You're insane.

I see little reason to think that Bullseye is truly rehabilitated.

I think that the years upon years upon years of Infinity Gauntlets, Onslaughts, Heroes Reborns, Operation: Galactic Storms, The Ends, Secret Wars, etc... , etc... have finally caused these men to snap.

Actually, I now think that Civil War is basically MU Earth finally coming totally unglued. It makes sense - if OUR Earth had gone through the INSANE torments and troubles that MU Earth had gone through, we would have all went insane a LONG time ago.

The heroes are finally snapping.

Reed Richards is now Gendo Ikari. He has a goal, and that's it. That's all he cares about. He wants all the chaos to STOP. He wants peace, and prosperity. He'll do anything he can to stop the insane roller coaster ride.

Same with Iron Man.

These men are towering intellects/control freaks. In a normal world, they'd be decent to good men who would fight crime here and there and/or invent a lot of things and live generally rich, peaceful lives. In the MU - with its Thanos', with its Doom's, with it's cosmic pantheon, with its Kang's, with it's Magneto's - they've just lost it. They've finally snapped. Lesser men would have done so a long time ago.

Captian America is desperate. I think that he knows that Iron Man, and Mr. Fantastic, have snapped. He fears that they're going to bring fascism to his country, and that's his worst nightmare. So he's not behaving the most rationally either.

Nitro's explosion isn't the real catalyst here. It's the straw that broke the camel's back. The decades of continuity that came before it is the catalyst - the catalyst that has made Reed Richards and Tony Stark so insanely desperate for control, and order.

[Syzygy]

I think that Reed has snapped. Tony too, though perhaps to a lesser degree.

You don't have a man like Bullseye working for you unless...

1) You're 100% sure that he's truly rehabilitated.

2) You're evil yourself (a la the Wilson Fisk reason).

3) You're insane.

I see little reason to think that Bullseye is truly rehabilitated.

I think that the years upon years upon years of Infinity Gauntlets, Onslaughts, Heroes Reborns, Operation: Galactic Storms, The Ends, Secret Wars, etc... , etc... have finally caused these men to snap.

Actually, I now think that Civil War is basically MU Earth finally coming totally unglued. It makes sense - if OUR Earth had gone through the INSANE torments and troubles that MU Earth had gone through, we would have all went insane a LONG time ago.

The heroes are finally snapping.

Reed Richards is now Gendo Ikari. He has a goal, and that's it. That's all he cares about. He wants all the chaos to STOP. He wants peace, and prosperity. He'll do anything he can to stop the insane roller coaster ride.

Same with Iron Man.

These men are towering intellects/control freaks. In a normal world, they'd be decent to good men who would fight crime here and there and/or invent a lot of things and live generally rich, peaceful lives. In the MU - with its Thanos', with its Doom's, with it's cosmic pantheon, with its Kang's, with it's Magneto's - they've just lost it. They've finally snapped. Lesser men would have done so a long time ago.

Captian America is desperate. I think that he knows that Iron Man, and Mr. Fantastic, have snapped. He fears that they're going to bring fascism to his country, and that's his worst nightmare. So he's not behaving the most rationally either.

Nitro's explosion isn't the real catalyst here. It's the straw that broke the camel's back. The decades of continuity that came before it is the catalyst - the catalyst that has made Reed Richards and Tony Stark so insanely desperate for control, and order.

The Board has agreed unanimously that your dissertation meets and/or exceeds the current standards of the profession. As such, we are awarding you the Ph.D. in Metahuman Psychology.

Congratulations...Doctor Darth Joker!

Peace,
Syzygy

[TotalWorldDomination]

I think that Reed has snapped. Tony too, though perhaps to a lesser degree.

You don't have a man like Bullseye working for you unless...

1) You're 100% sure that he's truly rehabilitated.

2) You're evil yourself (a la the Wilson Fisk reason).

3) You're insane.

I see little reason to think that Bullseye is truly rehabilitated.

I think that the years upon years upon years of Infinity Gauntlets, Onslaughts, Heroes Reborns, Operation: Galactic Storms, The Ends, Secret Wars, etc... , etc... have finally caused these men to snap.

Actually, I now think that Civil War is basically MU Earth finally coming totally unglued. It makes sense - if OUR Earth had gone through the INSANE torments and troubles that MU Earth had gone through, we would have all went insane a LONG time ago.

The heroes are finally snapping.

Reed Richards is now Gendo Ikari. He has a goal, and that's it. That's all he cares about. He wants all the chaos to STOP. He wants peace, and prosperity. He'll do anything he can to stop the insane roller coaster ride.

Same with Iron Man.

These men are towering intellects/control freaks. In a normal world, they'd be decent to good men who would fight crime here and there and/or invent a lot of things and live generally rich, peaceful lives. In the MU - with its Thanos', with its Doom's, with it's cosmic pantheon, with its Kang's, with it's Magneto's - they've just lost it. They've finally snapped. Lesser men would have done so a long time ago.

Captian America is desperate. I think that he knows that Iron Man, and Mr. Fantastic, have snapped. He fears that they're going to bring fascism to his country, and that's his worst nightmare. So he's not behaving the most rationally either.

Nitro's explosion isn't the real catalyst here. It's the straw that broke the camel's back. The decades of continuity that came before it is the catalyst - the catalyst that has made Reed Richards and Tony Stark so insanely desperate for control, and order.

There’s a difference between snapping and having enough. Tony and Reed have had enough. They're sick and tired of every half-baked science experiment gone wrong slapping on a mask and letting civilians get killed in the process. They've seen more then there share of horrors and they've adapted. They are finally too fed up with the carnage to just go along with business as usual, like cap wants to do.

Tony and Reed do want order, but heck that's the whole point of government, to protect the citizens who support it against those who would seek to harm them, through conscious acts or negligence. Are you really going to tell me that if YOU lived in the MU you wouldn’t be s*&t-scared of people like Thor and Ant-Man? These are people who simply beat the crap out of each other in broad daylight, destroying any nearby property in the process and then run away. Are you telling me that you'd prefer them to not be accountable to anyone just because they wear a mask?

Cap really IS an old man frightened of change. The base argument here is still whether heroes should be registered and accountable. Caps ONLY reasons against this are A) it's not how it's been done for the last 60 years and B) he'd have to take in other people that are just as frightened by change as he is. Deep down inside cap MUST know that when you have 18-year-old kids with more power then an A-Bomb, something will go wrong.

If anything it's cap who's on the verge of a mental breakdown. Tony and Reed are logically trying to figure out a way to stop this from going any further. Cap's resistance is destroying the ability of the superhero community at large to organize and protect the nation from the normal stuff- Villains, asteroids, Alien Armadas, Extra-dimensional beings, Undersea invaders, and there insane teammates.

Cap is still trapped in 1945; he thinks that the superhuman community is still the 6 people he fought the war with. He feels like he knows every player on the field and knows that they are genuinely good people. He's INSULTED that SHIELD would have him hunt these people down, since he KNOWS they’re good.

Look at the anti-reg side. Are they a rag-tag group of civil libertarians? No, they are an ARMY under Captain America’s control. He's fine with all of them because they take HIS orders. It's HIS army. He thinks that he's better then the American voter, and no politician can equal the brilliance of Captain America.

Reed and Tony like order, but the only control freak here is Cap. He's going to manage the Marvel U in a free-market way, control the superhuman community by HIS wisdom and HIS law.

EDIT- there is also a big difference between social order and fascism. Reed and Tony are both doing there best to make the public trust superheroes again, doing everything they can to help Superhuman avoid a Days of Future Past style world where ALL superhuman are hunted down.

Cap, of course, can't see the forest through the trees when it comes to the SHRA, and refuses to realize that his time is over and the superhuman community must change or be steamrolled.

[XPac]

There’s a difference between snapping and having enough. Tony and Reed have had enough. They're sick and tired of every half-baked science experiment gone wrong slapping on a mask and letting civilians get killed in the process. They've seen more then there share of horrors and they've adapted. They are finally too fed up with the carnage to just go along with business as usual, like cap wants to do.

Tony and Reed do want order, but heck that's the whole point of government, to protect the citizens who support it against those who would seek to harm them, through conscious acts or negligence. Are you really going to tell me that if YOU lived in the MU you wouldn’t be s*&t-scared of people like Thor and Ant-Man? These are people who simply beat the crap out of each other in broad daylight, destroying any nearby property in the process and then run away. Are you telling me that you'd prefer them to not be accountable to anyone just because they wear a mask?

Cap really IS an old man frightened of change. The base argument here is still whether heroes should be registered and accountable. Caps ONLY reasons against this are A) it's not how it's been done for the last 60 years and B) he'd have to take in other people that are just as frightened by change as he is. Deep down inside cap MUST know that when you have 18-year-old kids with more power then an A-Bomb, something will go wrong.

If anything it's cap who's on the verge of a mental breakdown. Tony and Reed are logically trying to figure out a way to stop this from going any further. Cap's resistance is destroying the ability of the superhero community at large to organize and protect the nation from the normal stuff- Villains, asteroids, Alien Armadas, Extra-dimensional beings, Undersea invaders, and there insane teammates.

Cap is still trapped in 1945; he thinks that the superhuman community is still the 6 people he fought the war with. He feels like he knows every player on the field and knows that they are genuinely good people. He's INSULTED that SHIELD would have him hunt these people down, since he KNOWS they’re good.

Look at the anti-reg side. Are they a rag-tag group of civil libertarians? No, they are an ARMY under Captain America’s control. He's fine with all of them because they take HIS orders. It's HIS army. He thinks that he's better then the American voter, and no politician can equal the brilliance of Captain America.

Reed and Tony like order, but the only control freak here is Cap. He's going to manage the Marvel U in a free-market way, control the superhuman community by HIS wisdom and HIS law.

How is Cap a control freak? He supports a status quo where the heroes manage themselve like they've been doing for the past few decades.

Does he fear change? Perahps... but after reading CW4 can you blame him? Homicidal clones of your friends? Super villian armies? I don't recall the american voters asking for any of this, do you? There's a reason other heroesd are abandoning Reed and Tony's position. What started out as a reasonable idea has now been used as an excuse to put forth this reckless and potentially dangerous agenda.

[Darth Joker]

The Board has agreed unanimously that your dissertation meets and/or exceeds the current standards of the profession. As such, we are awarding you the Ph.D. in Metahuman Psychology.

Congratulations...Doctor Darth Joker!

Peace,
Syzygy

LOL... thanks. :D

[bulbasteve]

How is Cap a control freak? He supports a status quo where the heroes manage themselve like they've been doing for the past few decades.

Does he fear change? Perahps... but after reading CW4 can you blame him? Homicidal clones of your friends? Super villian armies? I don't recall the american voters asking for any of this, do you? There's a reason other heroesd are abandoning Reed and Tony's position. What started out as a reasonable idea has now been used as an excuse to put forth this reckless and potentially dangerous agenda.

The problem is what Reed mentioned in I believe it was Frontline, about the expotential growth of superhumans. Think in MU time about the changes that have taken place in their 20 years. And look what could happen 20 years from then. TotalWorldDomination makes some great points about the current state of the world, but it is just going to get worse and worse as time goes on. At some point some sort of drastic action has to be taken, Earth X already showed us what happens in a world where everyone has powers, and that sort of world may not be so far off in the MU and the clock is ticking (even more so that the world is alraedy constantly in danger).

[Alan2099]

And the growth of superhumans has been extremely cut back. They just lost, what was it, several million superhumans overnight?

[Darth Joker]

There’s a difference between snapping and having enough. Tony and Reed have had enough. They're sick and tired of every half-baked science experiment gone wrong slapping on a mask and letting civilians get killed in the process. They've seen more then there share of horrors and they've adapted. They are finally too fed up with the carnage to just go along with business as usual, like cap wants to do.

Tony and Reed do want order, but heck that's the whole point of government, to protect the citizens who support it against those who would seek to harm them, through conscious acts or negligence. Are you really going to tell me that if YOU lived in the MU you wouldn’t be s*&t-scared of people like Thor and Ant-Man? These are people who simply beat the crap out of each other in broad daylight, destroying any nearby property in the process and then run away. Are you telling me that you'd prefer them to not be accountable to anyone just because they wear a mask?

No, I get the pro-registration argument. In fact, I agree with it.

If I was living in MU Earth for the past decade or more of their continuity, I'd have gone insane by now. I'll freely admit that.

That's what I think we're neglecting to see here as readers. Most of these heroes have been through so many apocalyptic situations that apocalyptic situations themsleves must almost seem typical to them. When YOU'RE one of the people actually counted upon to help save the day, that must be horribly draining to you, and wear upon your psyches. Heck, I'm half-surprised that most of the superhero community in the MU don't suffer from severe post-traumatic stress disorder.

Iron Man and Reed Richard's goals are understandable, and probably even good... it's their methods that show them to have snapped.

I acutally feel very sorry for these characters. They live in an unbelievably dangerous universe, and they're naturally fed up with it. They want order. I most definitely would if I were in their shoes too.

Cap really IS an old man frightened of change. The base argument here is still whether heroes should be registered and accountable. Caps ONLY reasons against this are A) it's not how it's been done for the last 60 years and B) he'd have to take in other people that are just as frightened by change as he is. Deep down inside cap MUST know that when you have 18-year-old kids with more power then an A-Bomb, something will go wrong.

If anything it's cap who's on the verge of a mental breakdown. Tony and Reed are logically trying to figure out a way to stop this from going any further. Cap's resistance is destroying the ability of the superhero community at large to organize and protect the nation from the normal stuff- Villains, asteroids, Alien Armadas, Extra-dimensional beings, Undersea invaders, and there insane teammates.

Cap is still trapped in 1945; he thinks that the superhuman community is still the 6 people he fought the war with. He feels like he knows every player on the field and knows that they are genuinely good people. He's INSULTED that SHIELD would have him hunt these people down, since he KNOWS they’re good.

Look at the anti-reg side. Are they a rag-tag group of civil libertarians? No, they are an ARMY under Captain America’s control. He's fine with all of them because they take HIS orders. It's HIS army. He thinks that he's better then the American voter, and no politician can equal the brilliance of Captain America.

Reed and Tony like order, but the only control freak here is Cap. He's going to manage the Marvel U in a free-market way, control the superhuman community by HIS wisdom and HIS law.

EDIT- there is also a big difference between social order and fascism. Reed and Tony are both doing there best to make the public trust superheroes again, doing everything they can to help Superhuman avoid a Days of Future Past style world where ALL superhuman are hunted down.

Cap, of course, can't see the forest through the trees when it comes to the SHRA, and refuses to realize that his time is over and the superhuman community must change or be steamrolled.

I see your points on Cap. Most of them are correct.

I do think, though, that SHIELD is now making him think of the Nazi Gestapo. He's afraid. Very, very afraid.

[bulbasteve]

And the growth of superhumans has been extremely cut back. They just lost, what was it, several million superhumans overnight?

By a witch who said "no more mutants". What is to say another reality warper won't say "everyone is a mutant". Or they will naturally or unnaturally get their powers back. There are still, 100 to 500 thousand according to ye ol wikipedia. All it did was possibly set mutants back a few years years. Remember with Marvel time there were barely any what, 10 of their years ago? At least now they got a chance to nip this problem in the bud by having the registration program before there are too many to handle.

[XPac]

And the growth of superhumans has been extremely cut back. They just lost, what was it, several million superhumans overnight?

That's the weird thing. You'd think after Decimation, the amount of superhuman incidents in general would decrease simply because there are far less superhumans.

In a lot of ways a superhuman registration should be LESS necessary that it was before.

[bulbasteve]

That's what I think we're neglecting to see here as readers. Most of these heroes have been through so many apocalyptic situations that apocalyptic situations themsleves must almost seem typical to them. When YOU'RE one of the people actually counted upon to help save the day, that must be horribly draining to you, and wear upon your psyches. Heck, I'm half-surprised that most of the superhero community in the MU don't suffer from severe post-traumatic stress disorder.

Iron Man and Reed Richard's goals are understandable, and probably even good... it's their methods that show them to have snapped.

I acutally feel very sorry for these characters. They live in an unbelievably dangerous universe, and they're naturally fed up with it. They want order. I most definitely would if I were in their shoes too.

Hmm not only that but look at the the ENIRE universe they live in. They have each met alien races in the past. Most of these have nowhere near the superhuman population that Earth has (and nowhere near the chaos by their fighting) and most has some sort of dictatorship. There really is the serious threat that the Earth may decend into an anarchy or one of the would be earth-conquerors will finally win the day.

When you live with superpeople and space bugs coming it takes a lot to preserve truth justice and the american way.

[XPac]

That's what I think we're neglecting to see here as readers. Most of these heroes have been through so many apocalyptic situations that apocalyptic situations themsleves must almost seem typical to them. When YOU'RE one of the people actually counted upon to help save the day, that must be horribly draining to you, and wear upon your psyches. Heck, I'm half-surprised that most of the superhero community in the MU don't suffer from severe post-traumatic stress disorder.

Iron Man and Reed Richard's goals are understandable, and probably even good... it's their methods that show them to have snapped.

I acutally feel very sorry for these characters. They live in an unbelievably dangerous universe, and they're naturally fed up with it. They want order. I most definitely would if I were in their shoes too.




Hmmm... I wonder if Milar was a fan of the original Squadron Supreme series. This is starting to sound a BIT familiar (though it's not exactly the same thing). It will be interesting to see how far Tony and Reed intend to take this, as they're already went farther than I'll wager most thought they would.

[TotalWorldDomination]

No, I get the pro-registration argument. In fact, I agree with it.

If I was living in MU Earth for the past decade or more of their continuity, I'd have gone insane by now. I'll freely admit that.

That's what I think we're neglecting to see here as readers. Most of these heroes have been through so many apocalyptic situations that apocalyptic situations themsleves must almost seem typical to them. When YOU'RE one of the people actually counted upon to help save the day, that must be horribly draining to you, and wear upon your psyches. Heck, I'm half-surprised that most of the superhero community in the MU don't suffer from severe post-traumatic stress disorder.

Iron Man and Reed Richard's goals are understandable, and probably even good... it's their methods that show them to have snapped.

I acutally feel very sorry for these characters. They live in an unbelievably dangerous universe, and they're naturally fed up with it. They want order. I most definitely would if I were in their shoes too.

Well, I have no idea what milliar was thinking when it came to HOW tony and Reed were going to enforce the SHRA. Them getting a little crazy may be the explination they use to retcon it.

Tony and Reed have gone a little wacky when it comes to the clones. Heck, I can even see the need to use villians at this point, but mind-controlled Clones? Come on now.



I see your points on Cap. Most of them are correct.

I do think, though, that SHIELD is now making him think of the Nazi Gestapo. He's afraid. Very, very afraid.

And thus will do somthing massively irrational. Like supporting an Atlantian invasion of the united states to overturn the SHRA. :D

[Magneto Rocks]

It's funny when two different people read the same thing and get two completely different interpretations from it.

Because when I read Authoritative Action, I see a Reed Richards' that was scarred. Reed shut himself off from his family and thought he could solve the problem completely by himself. But as always his family is what brings him through. During AA, Reed set up a sequence of events that places the FF against SHIELD (one not nearly as corrupt as the current iteration and led by Nick Fury) and basically the whole world. His obsession with Doom's inevitable return caused him to set up the rest of the FF to deal with SHIELD incoming attack against Latveria to get them out. Of course, the rest of the team didn't know exactly what Reed planned. So they get some extra time and rush back to Reed. They arrive, and save Reed from himself (something that's not a unique experience for him either)

Ben's death was not caused by his obsession with keeping his family safe, it was caused by the fact that Reed ignored his family and tried to go at it alone. A fact that he apparently didn't learn from, since he's the only one that's still doing Pro-Reg work.

This doesn't even delve into the fact that Mad Scientist Reed thinks a mind controlled clone was a good idea and not an abomination against everything he used to stand for. That's just insane.

Interesting interpretation, but I still disagree.

Yes, Reed tried to go it alone- and the result was that his plan succeeded. It was only when the other three intervened that things went wrong and Doom was able to possess Sue, setting in motion the chain of events which led to Ben's death.

Yes, he worked alone, yes he was purposely distancing himself from his family- but it became evident to me that the entire reason he was doing it, the thing fuelling his madness, was his love for his family. There are numerous instances of this, including his rant against Doom when they are in the infinite world he intended to trap them in, and his statement earlier in the story, something similar to "He'll get out again and he'll come and he'll hurt YOU AND THE CHILDREN...." etc.

It became evident to me that his love for family and his closeness to them was what was fuelling all of that. Also, clearly the Clone wasn't fully mind controlled. Hence him, y'know, blowing a hole through someone.

[heretic]

I see your points on Cap. Most of them are correct.

I do think, though, that SHIELD is now making him think of the Nazi Gestapo. He's afraid. Very, very afraid.
Given the behaviour of both SHIELD and a lot of what the SRA is doing in terms of treating unregistered Heroes as greater threats than the Villians, I say he has extremely good reason to be afraid.

HTG

[heretic]

There’s a difference between snapping and having enough. Tony and Reed have had enough. They're sick and tired of every half-baked science experiment gone wrong slapping on a mask and letting civilians get killed in the process. They've seen more then there share of horrors and they've adapted. They are finally too fed up with the carnage to just go along with business as usual, like cap wants to do.
The key problem here is that they are providing a solution few sane people would consider an improvement over the problem.

Even setting aside the Gulag thing and approval of the likes of O.N.E., when unleashing homocidal madmen is an acceptable solution to the dangers of unlicenced people trying to save lives then there are serious problems with one's priorities.

HTG

[Karthak]

[QUOTE=TotalWorldDomination]
Cap really IS an old man frightened of change. The base argument here is still whether heroes should be registered and accountable. Caps ONLY reasons against this are A) it's not how it's been done for the last 60 years and B) he'd have to take in other people that are just as frightened by change as he is. Deep down inside cap MUST know that when you have 18-year-old kids with more power then an A-Bomb, something will go wrong.

QUOTE]
You´re forgetting C) There is a huge risk that the superhero community would in time be turned into a government-controlled police force, like a superhuman version of the gestapo, and D) becoming a dog of the government is not appealing at all.

[garin]

Using the new Thunderbolts against unregistered heroes is difficult to defend. It's the last-page cliffhanger though, it's supposed to be shocking.

I'm not going to have kittens about it until we see the next issue. All the freaking out about Thor being pro-Reg turned out to be fairly pointless, after all.

[CyberCoyote]

And the growth of superhumans has been extremely cut back. They just lost, what was it, several million superhumans overnight?

No worries, superhumans are growing too much so IM and company are going to create CLONES..an ARMY of CLONES with superhuman abilities to..lower..the..uh. Wait. There's a fire in my livingroom. I'd better set the bedroom on fire to keep my house from burning down. Damn, still burning..maybe if I throw my garbage in the oven and..dang. Why isn't this working? :p

[Magneto Rocks]

No worries, superhumans are growing too much so IM and company are going to create CLONES..an ARMY of CLONES with superhuman abilities to..lower..the..uh. Wait. There's a fire in my livingroom. I'd better set the bedroom on fire to keep my house from burning down. Damn, still burning..maybe if I throw my garbage in the oven and..dang. Why isn't this working? :p

You don't know that. You DON'T know that he will create an army of clones, and you can't assume it based on some things you saw. That's like me assuming that Captain America won't be fighting fit for MONTHS after CW4!

[garin]

It also misses the point. The FSI is a drop in the bucket. The number of superhumans isn't their concern, or else they'd probably be pushing for ways to depower people.

They realize that would be fruitless, because of the general, accelerating trend upwards in the number of uncontrolled superhumans. M-Day was an anomaly, and one that may have ended up buying more time until the superhuman population hits critical mass, but it only delays the inevitable.

It can't be stopped, so it has be controlled.

[Alan2099]

That's pretty much the exact same justification they used for creating the sentinels.

[garin]

That's pretty much the exact same justification they used for creating the sentinels.
Not really. The goal of the Sentinel program was to exterminate mutants.

I've already pointed out that reducing the amount of superhumans (by any means) is clearly not what Tony and company are trying to achieve. They only want to structure the superhuman's role in society in a way that doesn't lead to absolute chaos.

[XPac]

Not really. The goal of the Sentinel program was to exterminate mutants.

I've already pointed out that reducing the amount of superhumans (by any means) is clearly not what Tony and company are trying to achieve. They only want to structure the superhuman's role in society in a way that doesn't lead to absolute chaos.

Originally the goal of the Sentinals was NOT to exterminate mutants. It just evolved into that overtime. Which I think is the fear that superhumans are having now. Hell, I'll wager that's what the early americans settlers had in mind with the native american population too.

"What extermination... we're just structing the indian role in society in a way that doesn't lead to absolute chaos." I can totally see them saying that back in the day.

Certainly the Runaways would have valid reasons to have concern over that.

[garin]

Originally the goal of the Sentinals was NOT to exterminate mutants. It just evolved into that overtime. Which I think is the fear that superhumans are having now.Okay, I'll have to take your word for it. What was Trask's initial vision for the Sentinel program?

Hell, I'll wager that's what the early americans settlers had in mind with the native american population too.

"What extermination... we're just structing the indian role in society in a way that doesn't lead to absolute chaos." I can totally see them saying that back in the day.

Certainly the Runaways would have valid reasons to have concern over that.Heh. I don't think the Native American comparison is an apt one.

We can argue about whether Tony, Reed and Hank are acting out of character, but I really don't think they're interested in committing genocide. They're superhumans themselves!

Trying to find a way to integrate the increasing superhuman population into society in a better way than 'Half of you are good, half of you are bad. Go nuts.' is in everyone's best interests.

[TotalWorldDomination]

You´re forgetting C) There is a huge risk that the superhero community would in time be turned into a government-controlled police force, like a superhuman version of the gestapo, and D) becoming a dog of the government is not appealing at all.

Well, C is highly unlikely. Why dos'nt the goverment order the army to take controll of the country? Why can't some general perform a Coup in america? Three big reasons- 1) it's not in the american Character (see American Exceptionalism), 2) The American Speration of Powers (Civilian Controll of the Millitary and in Marvel, Civilian Controll of the SHRA) and 3) the one two punch of the second amendment and the fact that there are are more police officers under controll of the state goverments then there are millitarty officers under controll of the federal goverment. I find it a wee bit silly that anyone would think that the goverment can just pop over and take total controll of an area for no apparent reason. If cap thought this was possible, he'd be trying to get involved in the SHRA to diffuse it like Tony, Reed and Hank.

D) Dog of the Goverment? Cap was a Soilder. He took orders. The ONLY reason that taking orders would offend him now is if I'm right and he's convinced that the only moral athority left on earth is himself. and last time I checked, a Superpowered force under a moralizing god-like figure attacking the federal goverment was more of a danger to the nation then someone trying to take power away from those god-like rebels and give it back to the american people.

[XPac]

D) Dog of the Goverment? Cap was a Soilder. He took orders. The ONLY reason that taking orders would offend him now is if I'm right and he's convinced that the only moral athority left on earth is himself. and last time I checked, a Superpowered force under a moralizing god-like figure attacking the federal goverment was more of a danger to the nation then someone trying to take power away from those god-like rebels and give it back to the american people.

Why does it have to be that black and white? Isn't it possible to refuse an order without thinking you're the only moral authority left on earth?

[Alan2099]

D) Dog of the Goverment? Cap was a Soilder. He took orders. The ONLY reason that taking orders would offend him now is if I'm right and he's convinced that the only moral athority left on earth is himself.
So, if you disagree with something that means you feel nobody else in the world is right except you?

For another thing, there's no real penalty for disobeying an unlawful order.

How does the fact that Tony has been shown wondering if he's doing the right thing factor into all of that? Or Spider-man? Where is the moral grounds of doing something you're not sure is right?

and last time I checked, a Superpowered force under a moralizing god-like figure attacking the federal goverment was more of a danger to the nation then someone trying to take power away from those god-like rebels and give it back to the american people.
First, Captain America has never set himself up as a "god-like figure".

Second, he's not attacking the federal government. The government is attacking him.

Third, the power ISN'T going back to the people. It's staying in the hands of either
a) those "god-like rebels," (if you belive Tony Stark is really in control)
b) an imperssonal cold government agency that's already shown to be vastly corrupt and rather bloodthirst.

[Tommy]

And Norm MacDonald
http://www.zshare.net/audio/01-norm_macdonald-the_fantastic_four-mp3.html
Curse you Richards! It is not working for me.
Certain heroes are like that. Kitty Pryde is another example. No one ever calls her Shadowcat or any of her past names... they always call her Kitty. Makes you wonder why they even bother.
Also Jean Grey (mostly due to changing her code name), Rachel Summers/Grey (do to copying her code name), Emma Frost (due to having a long ass code name).

Of course on the flip side there are people like Storm who never go by their real name.

[spyridona]

Folks who say Cap still thinks its 1945.

He's been out of the ice for 10 to 13 years. He's adjusted. He knows there are half a gabillion metas in the MU. Cap's been apart of almost every major cross over. He's acted logically until someone got the idea to inject 'real world' politics into a socio-demographic that's NEVER been like the real world. And that? Is bad writing.

[TotalWorldDomination]

So, if you disagree with something that means you feel nobody else in the world is right except you?

For another thing, there's no real penalty for disobeying an unlawful order.

How does the fact that Tony has been shown wondering if he's doing the right thing factor into all of that? Or Spider-man? Where is the moral grounds of doing something you're not sure is right?

No, What I disagree with is that A) following orders makes you a "Dog" of the goverment and B) that Cap seems to be the only character in CW who is'nt seeing both sides, moraly speaking. Tony questions himself, Spidy dose too, Cap? Nope. Because he's Right. We're left with 2 options. Either the Authors are trying to write him as a blinded moral athority OR the authors don't see any reason to make him question, because he actualy IS right.


First, Captain America has never set himself up as a "god-like figure".

Second, he's not attacking the federal government. The government is attacking him.

First, He has. He's an icon, and to some of these lesser heros he IS a god. hell, even gods treat him like a god.

I don't think it was an simple co-incident that the chair he was sitting in the heal him looked like a throne. Cap has set himself up as the final moral athority on this earth, above the american people, above the goverment, above his peers. He dismissess an idea for peace and pushes on with his war because he's convinced any compromise would be innapropreate because he himself is the only person who can grant mercy. If that's not thinking one's self god-like what is?

Third, the power ISN'T going back to the people. It's staying in the hands of either
a) those "god-like rebels," (if you belive Tony Stark is really in control)
b) an imperssonal cold government agency that's already shown to be vastly corrupt and rather bloodthirst.

a) Tony Stark is working for the people, not for himself. Every Offical in the goverment is. That's there job title. Cap has put his own needs and opinions above the opinions of the american people, who have demanded this act. tony stark and steve rodgers are not the people who passed this act. It was Miriam Sharpe, the representation of the people in CW.

b) Last time I checked that "cold government agency" worked for the people. In a democracy, giving power to the people is power to there elected representives. Cap refuses to allow elected representives of the people to have power over him. He insted revels in his own power. The people will not tell Captain America what to do. Only Cap Am has the moral athority to decide what is right. The people of america are Inferior to Cap Am.

[XPac]

First, He has. He's an icon, and to some of these lesser heros he IS a god. hell, even gods treat him like a god.

I don't think it was an simple co-incident that the chair he was sitting in the heal him looked like a throne. Cap has set himself up as the final moral athority on this earth, above the american people, above the goverment, above his peers. He dismissess an idea for peace and pushes on with his war because he's convinced any compromise would be innapropreate because he himself is the only person who can grant mercy. If that's not thinking one's self god-like what is?



Again... why does it mean Cap is setting himself up as the final authority on earth just because he chooses to not follow an unjust law? How does that make him a self-god?

[TotalWorldDomination]

Again... why does it mean Cap is setting himself up as the final authority on earth just because he chooses to not follow an unjust law? How does that make him a self-god?

I don't understand the question. Cap thinking he's god actualy has very little to do with him disobaying a very just and appropreate law. It has more to do with him thinking that he's above the average person. He thinks that he's beyond that law and the people who passed it.

when one has the power of a god, and then starts thinking that they "know what's best" for the people, they tend to start acting like a god.

Tell me, how is cap respecting democracy? How is he respecting the power of the powerless through that same democracy?

[XPac]

I don't understand the question. Cap thinking he's god actualy has very little to do with him disobaying a very just and appropreate law. It has more to do with him thinking that he's above the average person. He thinks that he's beyond that law and the people who passed it.

when one has the power of a god, and then starts thinking that they "know what's best" for the people, they tend to start acting like a god.

Tell me, how is cap respecting democracy? How is he respecting the power of the powerless through that same democracy?

In this instance he's NOT representing democracy. I just don't agree that because he disagrees with the will of the people in this instance, it makes him a self-god. That's a pretty big stretch.

He doesn't agree with the law and chooses to fight it. Whether he's right or wrong to do that another matter, but it hardly means he believes he's a self-god.

Would he have been a self-god if he oppossed Japanesse interment camps, slavery, or the treatment of the native american population, or just a guy that recognizes a crappy law even if the american public at the time don't? 99% of the time Cap does support democracy... it's just that at least in Caps view this is one instance where the ideals he represents aren't served by doing so. Whether or not he's right remains to be seen.

[Alan2099]

I don't understand the question. Cap thinking he's god actualy has very little to do with him disobaying a very just and appropreate law.

The law itself may be just. If you want to be generous, but the meothods behind it and the people running it are far from just and they've already shown they're willing to twist the law into ways that nobody could possibly define as being just.

Even in the real world, if you stop a mugging, the police aren't going to shoot at you with anything. ESPECIALLY if you've just saved another cops life.

To the majority of the people this isn't a "law" it's an excuse.

when one has the power of a god, and then starts thinking that they "know what's best" for the people, they tend to start acting like a god.
And Cap hasn't started acting like a god nor does he have the powers of one. Funny that you say HE'S the one acting like a god, when he's not creating new life for the sole purpose of using it as a weapon.

Also, you're very first statement said that him acting like a god had nothing to do with him disobeying a "very just and appropreate law". if it doesn't have anything to do with anything, then why bring it up? You just seem to be looking for some kind of buzzword to add more strenght to your arguement.

[garin]

I wouldn't phrase it as seeing himself as a god, but it's pretty clear that Cap sees himself as a moral authority in the current situation. Disobeying a law enacted in response to public outcry, and being absolutely certain that he is correct in doing so, clearly implies that he thinks he knows better than the government, the pro-reg heroes and the people.

He even mentions his contempt for the American people in his spotlight issue of New Avengers.

[XPac]

I wouldn't phrase it as seeing himself as a god, but it's pretty clear that Cap sees himself as a moral authority in the current situation. Disobeying a law enacted in response to public outcry, and being absolutely certain that he is correct in doing so, clearly implies that he thinks he knows better than the government, the pro-reg heroes and the people.

He even mentions his contempt for the American people in his spotlight issue of New Avengers.

Well, I think in this instance there is a validity in him arguing that he knows better than the american people. If the American people knew that SHIELD was corrupt and it's director is a flat out murderer of innoncent people then perhaps the public outcry for SHIELD to take over the superhuman community wouldn't quite be as loud.

It's not like he can pretend to not know what he knows just because the average american citizen doesn't know it.

[TotalWorldDomination]

The law itself may be just. If you want to be generous, but the meothods behind it and the people running it are far from just and they've already shown they're willing to twist the law into ways that nobody could possibly define as being just.

Even in the real world, if you stop a mugging, the police aren't going to shoot at you with anything. ESPECIALLY if you've just saved another cops life.

To the majority of the people this isn't a "law" it's an excuse.

And yet if you stop a robber and saved lives with an un-regstered AK-47, a small tank and a missle launcher, the cops ARE going to arrest you, no matter what.


And Cap hasn't started acting like a god nor does he have the powers of one. Funny that you say HE'S the one acting like a god, when he's not creating new life for the sole purpose of using it as a weapon.

I don't agree with tony's methods at all. it's one of the reasons I think that Civil War is designed to make the Pro-Reg side look like assholes. This series was stated to be about no-one being a bad guy. And yet they are intent upon only hinting that tony is a good-guy and only hinting that Cap could be bad.

I mean come on, Clones? Who thought that would'nt make them look evil?

Also, you're very first statement said that him acting like a god had nothing to do with him disobeying a "very just and appropreate law". if it doesn't have anything to do with anything, then why bring it up? You just seem to be looking for some kind of buzzword to add more strenght to your arguement.

Hmmm, seems to me like I was'nt the one who started using buzzwords.


why does it mean Cap is setting himself up as the final authority on earth just because he chooses to not follow an unjust law?

I responed to your comment, nothing more.

And it matters so very little. That's the whole reason for the SHRA. Superheros like cap think that they're better then the rest of us, better then the american people. I may be overreacting by calling him a god, but to me thats sure as shooting what he looks like to me. You're intitled to feel that cap is some kind of crusader for right, but to me he's just a sacared little man who's built himself up a little too high and needs to be knocked down hard.

I prefer Ultimate Cap anyway :p

[XPac]

And it matters so very little. That's the whole reason for the SHRA. Superheros like cap think that they're better then the rest of us, better then the american people. I may be overreacting by calling him a god, but to me thats sure as shooting what he looks like to me. You're intitled to feel that cap is some kind of crusader for right, but to me he's just a sacared little man who's built himself up a little too high and needs to be knocked down hard.

I prefer Ultimate Cap anyway :p

Maybe he is scared. But considering the fact that he knows a corrupt organization headed by a murderer is taking control of the entire superhuman community, you don't think he has reason to be scared? Consider that SHIELD agents outright admitted to wanting to kill teenage metahumans in Runaways. Even the people he did have faith in... Tony, Reed, and Hank... are creating homicidal clones and armies of super villians.

At what point exactly is Cap allowed to have fears about the present situation? If anything, I'd argue his fears were not only justified... they seemingly didn't even scratch the surface.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Maybe he is scared. But considering the fact that he knows a corrupt organization headed by a murderer is taking control of the entire superhuman community, you don't think he has reason to be scared? Consider that SHIELD agents outright admitted to wanting to kill teenage metahumans in Runaways. Even the people he did have faith in... Tony, Reed, and Hank... are creating homicidal clones and armies of super villians.

At what point exactly is Cap allowed to have fears about the present situation? If anything, I'd argue his fears were not only justified... they seemingly didn't even scratch the surface.

Ah, but that was also besides the point. At the pure ideological level we're not talking about SHEILD, or how some writers have chosen to attack the SHRA. It's about the registration act and wether people should be required to follow the law. Cap has shown consistantly that he's convinced that he can do what he wants, laws or no laws.

I'm not going to try and defend SHEILD in YA/Runaways. I just hang my head and silently curse Joe Q for lying to us about making it even.

[XPac]

Ah, but that was also besides the point. At the pure ideological level we're not talking about SHEILD, or how some writers have chosen to attack the SHRA. It's about the registration act and wether people should be required to follow the law. Cap has shown consistantly that he's convinced that he can do what he wants, laws or no laws.

I'm not going to try and defend SHEILD in YA/Runaways. I just hang my head and silently curse Joe Q for lying to us about making it even.

When you're talking about practical application of a law here, it's not just about idealogy... it's about practicality. Even if you in THEORY agree that a registration has merits, why support it if you think SHIELD running it is a potential danger?

Do you seriously expect Cap to look at the current situation and find it acceptable just because the law says it is? That's not being patriotic, that's just being stupid.

[TotalWorldDomination]

When you're talking about practical application of a law here, it's not just about idealogy... it's about practicality. Even if you in THEORY agree that a registration has merits, why support it if you think SHIELD running it is a potential danger?

Do you seriously expect Cap to look at the current situation and find it acceptable just because the law says it is? That's not being patriotic, that's just being stupid.

No, but he's supposed to try and work in the system to make it better. He was in a position to change things, and he chose to go underground. at the very least Tony is trying to make things better rather then make things stay the same.

[XPac]

No, but he's supposed to try and work in the system to make it better. He was in a position to change things, and he chose to go underground. at the very least Tony is trying to make things better rather then make things stay the same.

He wasn't exactly in a postion to change anything after Maria Hill tried gunning him down and turn him into a fugitive of the law for disagreeing with it before it even became a law yet. He didn't choose to go underground... he was forced to go underground.

[CyberCoyote]

You don't know that. You DON'T know that he will create an army of clones, and you can't assume it based on some things you saw. That's like me assuming that Captain America won't be fighting fit for MONTHS after CW4!

Actually Cap'll be back in action really quick, the FF issue where Ben interveins on the breakout at Yancy Street is very soon after #4 as they are busting free the anti's who were captured after this battle.

And yup, I'm assuming based on the Clor and the other clone we see Reed looking at when he explains the 50 state initiative folks are still a 'month away from being finished'. At first I thought he was talking about the super-training facilities, but that would be a strange choice of words if that was what he was indicating. they've been pretty good at telegraphing the punches so far in the series, but it could be a feint as you say :)

[garin]

He wasn't exactly in a postion to change anything after Maria Hill tried gunning him down and turn him into a fugitive of the law for disagreeing with it before it even became a law yet. He didn't choose to go underground... he was forced to go underground.Hill didn't just ambush him. Steve played a part in the escalation of events.

He could have simply said 'Sure, I'll lead your Avengers', then gone straight to the President and told him the registration idea may work, but we can't have Maria Hill running it. She's totally corrupt and possibly a bit insane.

Which approach do you think would have had a larger impact on the nature of the registration movement?

[XPac]

Hill didn't just ambush him. Steve played a part in the escalation of events.

He could have simply said 'Sure, I'll lead your Avengers', then gone straight to the President and told him the registration idea may work, but we can't have Maria Hill running it. She's totally corrupt and possibly a bit insane.

Which approach do you think would have had a larger impact on the nature of the registration movement?

Lying to her face was Tony's approach to dealing with SHIELD, not Caps. And that's part of the reason the relationship between government and the hero community was as bad as it was at that point to begin with.

I won't disagree that there aren't some potential advantages to lying to Hills face, but I won't look down on Cap for choosing not to lower himself to doing that either.

[garin]

I won't disagree that there aren't some potential advantages to lying to Hills face, but I won't look down on Cap for choosing not to lower himself to doing that either.Okay, but Cap wasn't forced underground by anything except his own stubbornness. He had an opportunity to work within the system, but he rejected it. I can see why some people might consider him foolish for that, even if he feels he took the more noble course.

[BadAssMofo]

We'll soon see that either Reed Richard is a Skrull or Victors swapped bodies with him again.

[bulbasteve]

When you're talking about practical application of a law here, it's not just about idealogy... it's about practicality. Even if you in THEORY agree that a registration has merits, why support it if you think SHIELD running it is a potential danger?

Do you seriously expect Cap to look at the current situation and find it acceptable just because the law says it is? That's not being patriotic, that's just being stupid.

Because SHIELD won't be running it. Stark says in Civil War Files that the C.S.A. will be running the 50 state initiative and to quote "If all goes as planned the C.S.A will assume the position they should have always held, to manage all of our countries super-humans in the Fifty State Initiative."

Right now they are only in control of oh I would say half of the heroes, in the future, it may be none.

And if Cap was so concerned about SHIELD, why was he still a SHIELD agent by the time of Civil War? Maybe if he publically would have quit (or told the world about the corruption) they wouldn't be in charge.

[CyberCoyote]

Hill didn't just ambush him. Steve played a part in the escalation of events.

He could have simply said 'Sure, I'll lead your Avengers', then gone straight to the President and told him the registration idea may work, but we can't have Maria Hill running it. She's totally corrupt and possibly a bit insane.

Which approach do you think would have had a larger impact on the nature of the registration movement?

I didn't read that part (all I've seen 1st hand is #4), but someone made a statement to me when I suggested that Reed and Tony could have easily made an army of high powered robots to do their dirty work instead of clones and nanite controlled villains (and Pym could shrink them down for quick and economical transportation..just like he could shrink down the captured anti's for discreet transport instead of the big armored tanks Alicia Masters could see coming six miles away)

"That's been done, it's an overused concept. It wouldn't be as interesting as a Thor Clone" He was right (sorry, can't remember who it was to give credit). But the thing is these characters do things that we expect of them because it seems a fairly logical process given their personalities, abilities, and histories. Maybe it works for a lot of folks, but forcing them to do something 'new and different' that goes totally against the grain of their established character just to be different doesn't sit well with me. IMO it's forced and contrived just for a raised eyebrow.

Cap and IM's actions and interactions are well explained also by that line of thought though.

[Donald Stone]

We'll soon see that either Reed Richard is a Skrull or Victors swapped bodies with him again.Naw, this is below Victor.

[garin]

I didn't read that part (all I've seen 1st hand is #4), but someone made a statement to me when I suggested that Reed and Tony could have easily made an army of high powered robots to do their dirty work instead of clones and nanite controlled villains (and Pym could shrink them down for quick and economical transportation..just like he could shrink down the captured anti's for discreet transport instead of the big armored tanks Alicia Masters could see coming six miles away)

"That's been done, it's an overused concept. It wouldn't be as interesting as a Thor Clone" He was right (sorry, can't remember who it was to give credit). But the thing is these characters do things that we expect of them because it seems a fairly logical process given their personalities, abilities, and histories. Maybe it works for a lot of folks, but forcing them to do something 'new and different' that goes totally against the grain of their established character just to be different doesn't sit well with me. IMO it's forced and contrived just for a raised eyebrow.

Cap and IM's actions and interactions are well explained also by that line of thought though.

I'm not a hundred percent sure I understand your point, but if you're saying that Cap doing what I describe would make for a less interesting story, I agree wholeheartedly.

I wasn't arguing about the quality of the characterization or the direction of the plot, just trying to defend the claim that Steve could be considered foolish for what he did, given the options available to him. He doesn't know that he's a comic book character destined to only take actions to enhance the plot, so we can argue about motivations or options even if we realize they were never really in the cards.

As far as the robot army, I don't think they'd want to go near autonomous robots of that nature after all the problems with the original Sentinels. Stark was involved with the design of the new O*N*E piloted Sentinels, so the high-powered robot thing has some merit. Unfortunately Marvel decided that Sentinels should only interact with mutants.

[XPac]

Okay, but Cap wasn't forced underground by anything except his own stubbornness. He had an opportunity to work within the system, but he rejected it. I can see why some people might consider him foolish for that, even if he feels he took the more noble course.

Truthfully in that position I would have done what Stark has done in the past... I would have lied to her face without giving it a second thought.

But there's a reason Tony (and me if I existed in the marvel unvierse) aren't Captain America. You can label it as stubborness if you want, but right or wrong it's that element of his character which doesn't allow him to sink to that level which makes him Captain America to begin with.

I don't think any descent Captain America writer would have had him lie to Hill to her face then run off and rag on her behind her back. Whether or not you agree with that logic, it just woudln't be Captain America if he were written that way.

[bulbasteve]

I don't think any descent Captain America writer would have had him lie to Hill to her face then run off and rag on her behind her back. Whether or not you agree with that logic, it just woudln't be Captain America if he were written that way.

So his own sense of himself is more important than innocent people? Let's say in WWII he knew a general who was going to commit war crimes, he wouldn't lie then go to his superiors and report it? This seems to only show more proof he has some sort of god-complex if he thinks his own sense of self is more important than the saftey of other people.

[garin]

I don't think any descent Captain America writer would have had him lie to Hill to her face then run off and rag on her behind her back. Whether or not you agree with that logic, it just woudln't be Captain America if he were written that way.I agree, actually. Captain America is what he is, and that is often stubborn and idealistic.

Having an understanding of someone's character or motivations doesn't preclude us from criticising their actions, though, even if they were only acting in accordance with their nature.

[CyberCoyote]

As far as the robot army, I don't think they'd want to go near autonomous robots of that nature after all the problems with the original Sentinels. Stark was involved with the design of the new O*N*E piloted Sentinels, so the high-powered robot thing has some merit. Unfortunately Marvel decided that Sentinels should only interact with mutants.

Excellent explanation of why they'd avoid that angle, I hadn't thought of it and it makes a LOT of sense (aren't Sentinels monitoring the mutants for the government now?)

And yes, you got the point entirely. They(well, he) write them doing these things to try and make the story more exciting without regard of how inconsistent it is with the characters involved. The trick to writing comics(well, that I like) is to create situations that test the characters' resolve and skill, seeing how they respond to new challenges. Not changing the characters to make the situations interesting.

[garin]

(aren't Sentinels monitoring the mutants for the government now?)Yup, those are the human-piloted Sentinels I mentioned. They've had a couple of very brief appearances in Civil War where the mutants were involved.

I think it's a shame they're not being more widely used, there's really no reason to make them so mutant-centric apart from the significance Sentinels have to the mutant population. Which is exactly the reason you wouldn't assign them to mutant duty, from a public-relations standpoint. Oh well.

[XPac]

Yup, those are the human-piloted Sentinels I mentioned. They've had a couple of very brief appearances in Civil War where the mutants were involved.

I think it's a shame they're not being more widely used, there's really no reason to make them so mutant-centric apart from the significance Sentinels have to the mutant population. Which is exactly the reason you wouldn't assign them to mutant duty, from a public-relations standpoint. Oh well.

I think they're not widely used in Civil War because Tony Stark is calling for "dibs" as far as the superhumans go. He wants to deal with them himself rather than having another agency of the government go after them. Probably because in his mind he feels other agencys of the government might not be as lenient as he might be (though I can't imagine the Sentinels being any worse than Bullseye or Venom).

[garin]

I think they're not widely used in Civil War because Tony Stark is calling for "dibs" as far as the superhumans go. He wants to deal with them himself rather than having another agency of the government go after them. Probably because in his mind he feels other agencys of the government might not be as lenient as he might be (though I can't imagine the Sentinels being any worse than Bullseye or Venom).Well, maybe. He did contribute technology to the Sentinels, and Rhodey is charge of training them. General Lazer turned out to be a nutcase, but if they'd realized he was an anti-mutant bigot you'd want to steer him in a direction away from dealing with mutants.

I guess the feeling was that O*N*E have all the personnel experienced in dealing with mutants, and O*N*E has the Sentinels.

[Darth Joker]

Naw, this is below Victor.

I kind of agree. For the life of me, I can't see Victor relying on the likes of Bullseye, and Venom, for help (the venom symbiote, perhaps, but not Eddie Brock).

The clone army also reminds me very forcefully of Emporer Palpatine.

I think that there can be little doubt now who the brass at Marvel want us to cheer for - and that's the anti-reg side.

The pro-reg side are pulling out all sorts of crazy stuff - cloning a god, and a former best friend, who is now dead, presumably with out any deathbed approval to do so on Thor's part? VERY bad taste. Bringing in Wilson Fisk-esque super-powered mercs? Not the actions of a man that is both good, and sane.

I kind of agree with Conn Seanery. In principle, the SHRA makes loads of sense to me. In actual application - wow, it's too poorly, and unethically, done to simply brush off.

NOT TO SAY that Cap is completely innocent here. He isn't. He may be going off the deep end himself. But - man - SHIELD just looks too "ends ALWAYS justify the means" to me right now.

I used to defend Hill (and SHIELD by extension) to try to provide some balance on the board, but it's just too blatant now.

[XPac]

NOT TO SAY that Cap is completely innocent here. He isn't. He may be going off the deep end himself. But - man - SHIELD just looks too "ends ALWAYS justify the means" to me right now.

I used to defend Hill (and SHIELD by extension) to try to provide some balance on the board, but it's just too blatant now.

Well, the funny thing is that I'm actually not worried about Hill anymore. It's not her that's the problem... it's Tony, Reed and Hank. They're the ones whiping out the clones and they're the ones creating the Supervillian armies.

Hill hasn't actually done a whole lately. It's all been the scientists.

[Darth Joker]

Well, the funny thing is that I'm actually not worried about Hill anymore. It's not her that's the problem... it's Tony, Reed and Hank. They're the ones whiping out the clones and they're the ones creating the Supervillian armies.

Hill hasn't actually done a whole lately. It's all been the scientists.

True. On the Rumbles forum a few months back, I defended Hill to try to provide some balance in the overall Civil War talk THERE.

Now, the pro-reg side in general (specifically the scientists, yes) ... has just gone too far, in my mind.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

About Reed - If you've gone to the point in which a large amount of the superhero community is questioning your actions, including your team (and your wife), who left you, and you continue to perform actions that make you look like the biggest hypocrite in the Multiverse to your insanely evil arch-rival, then you have a serious problem.

Anywho....

I've been thinking about this whole situation. If the Pro side wins, does that mean Tony, in this current age of comics, would be Marvel's "icon"?

Would he become the #1 hero that everybody looks up to? It's seems like Millar and a few others have been saying that Cap does not fit into today's standards for heroes, or in what America stands for, so will Tony become "the leader of the Marvel Universe"?

Now that's a really disturbing thought, especially if they do another JLA/Avengers-like DC vs Marvel crossover. Just think, Iron Man teaming up with Superman?

Supes is so above this guy, it's not even funny! I can almost say the same for Batman (when he's not doing any OMAC/Tower of Babel stuff).


Maybe this is why I've been leaning towards DC lately. They have heroes that suffer great hardships, and still come out on top in iconic fashion, even after IC, which was anything but that.

When I was younger, one of the only Marvel characters I really liked was Cap because I felt that his stories were the only sense of escapism Marvel had. He was by far the greatest Marvel character not because of power, but because of his undying morality and magnificent leadership.

But now he's being considered an old gezzer who's not fit for today's "safety over freedom" times. F**k that, if Marvel doesn't believe in Cap anymore, then I don't believe in Marvel anymore. This doesn't mean I'll stop reading Marvel, but I'll be reading a hellva lot more DC.

To me, Reed and Tony these days aren't true heroes. They're a bunch of hypocrites that have forgotten what the word and the ideals of that word stood for. Maybe Hulk, when he comes back, can make them remember.

[dmhaight]

I don't know...I hear now that Reed has always been somewhat of a jerk.

I've read all of Lee/Kirby FF, most of John Byrne FF, and quite a bit of other FF runs, and in all that time I've never got the sense that Reed would stoop to such levels.

Note, I've hardly read the FF from the nineties onward. This includes much of DeFalco's run, Claremont's, Waid's, JMS's, etc.

So, I have to ask: Is there any past occurrences that would support Reed acting this way?

There is no way the character of Reed Richards as presented by the likes of Lee, Kirby, Byrne, Thomas, Wolfman, Wein, Conway, or Simonson would act in such a blatantly un-heroic manner. Yes, in recent years I've seen portrayals of the character that were moving farther in this direction, but this has gone WAY too far, and in my opinion in indefensible.

[Eallison]

I didn't read that part (all I've seen 1st hand is #4), but someone made a statement to me when I suggested that Reed and Tony could have easily made an army of high powered robots to do their dirty work instead of clones and nanite controlled villains (and Pym could shrink them down for quick and economical transportation..just like he could shrink down the captured anti's for discreet transport instead of the big armored tanks Alicia Masters could see coming six miles away)

"That's been done, it's an overused concept. It wouldn't be as interesting as a Thor Clone" He was right (sorry, can't remember who it was to give credit). But the thing is these characters do things that we expect of them because it seems a fairly logical process given their personalities, abilities, and histories. Maybe it works for a lot of folks, but forcing them to do something 'new and different' that goes totally against the grain of their established character just to be different doesn't sit well with me. IMO it's forced and contrived just for a raised eyebrow.

Cap and IM's actions and interactions are well explained also by that line of thought though.

This is a perfect example of what, IMHO, is wrong with "big event" comics.

Sure, character X wouldn't react that way, they would do Y instead.

Yeah, but if they do Y, it'll be a boring story.

You (you being Marvel and DC) know what? Then maybe you shouldn't HAVE the "big event" in question.

If you cannot make the story work while remaining true to the characters, maybe it's either;

A. Not worth telling. I mean, is Civil War really worth the damage it is potentially doing to the characters?

B. Maybe it should be an Elseworlds/What If/Ultimates story instead. If you INSIST on having a character eat a baby (as an example), how about doing it in an alternate timeline instead of potentially making a HUGE mess for future writers to clean up?

The above is perfect. IMHO, a LOT of this is done for the shock value. Millar talks in his interview about how he wanted the real Thor, but found out he couldn't use him -- so enter "Clor" instead.

He had a story he wanted to use, so he warped everything around it to get his big reveal. Now, instead of potentially "only" ruining Thor, he's possibly tainted Tony, Hank and Reed.

Yeah, that's MUCH better :rolleyes:

The story should accomodate the characters. Characters should not be warped for the sake of plot -- and, IMHO, that is what I have been seeing from Day One with Civil War.

Take it and run.

[gideon]

I've got it! I know what happened to Reed. During a stretching exercise, he shrunk his heart three sizes to small, so he doesn't care anymore. But at x-mas, he'll watch the Grinch, and he'll grow it again, and fix the world! You'll see!

[trickster]

Boo-Hiss :)

Heck, his family at the time was just long lost Pop who'd have gone along for the ride if he were around.

Millar is writing another Authority and he's giving these characters the muddled gray morally corrupt mentality of his characters there. This is NOT Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Captain America as they've been developed over the years. It's Millar's ego turning them into mirror images of something else he's done because it worked for that project so he assumes it's the best thing to do in this one.

Creating and enslaving life, imprisoning former comrades in an alternate dimension, using technology to 'control' mass murderers to act as police (after your slave clone just went wonky and killed someone. Hmm, what's the chance of plan 'B' being bad too?). These are the actions of the villains in Marvel Comics, not the Heroes. They ARE the actions of Midnighter and company.



What?? But if you don't support registration, the terrorists win!

[Siddon]

Well I don't think Reed is to far off the deep end, he is doing what Tony is telling him to and he hasn't been given a good enough reason to quit his side yet.

I think the rationalization of Tony Peitro and Reed is that these steps where going to happen anyways so now they have to do these horrible things to keep order in the world they live in. I don't think its coincidental that most of these "heros" are just quiting and becoming bad guys. I mean Namor, Cap, Thing, Sue etc. these people basically are trying to live in a world that has changed.

I really think that something really bad is going to happen with the anti side and if I where to bet I would say Cap makes Dr. Strange torture Reed and Reed dies.

[Loestal]

One thing I find funny is the complaint that Reed and Tony are acting out of character, or not the same as Stan Lee had writen them. It is officially 10 years in Marvel time, and I don't know about you...but I'm not the exact same guy I was 10 years ago. I thought differently, it was a different time. There has been certain events in my life that has changed me and my way of thinking...as I'm sure is the case with alot of you. So...if that's the case with me, I can damn sure buy it's the case with Reed and Tony too. They aren't acting like villains. They are doing what they think is right.

They aren't the same people they were 10 years ago, per Marvel time. People change, sometimes drastically. There is NOTHING unrealistic or unreasonable about Reed and Tonys actions in CW. Plus, it's not like this has all come out of the blue. It has been leading up to this. Granted, the cloning thing is questionable actions. But I think the debate needs to be over the actions themselves and not the validity of whether or not they are acting they did 40 years ago when they were created.

If you wanna say that you don't like they way the writer's have taken the characters because they stray too far from their original aspects...ok fine, but don't flame the writers and storys for it. It's not bad because just YOU don't like it. I have yet to see a valid arguement that convinces me that CW is a poorly written and totally unentertaining story.

[CyberCoyote]

One thing I find funny is the complaint that Reed and Tony are acting out of character, or not the same as Stan Lee had writen them. It is officially 10 years in Marvel time, and I don't know about you...but I'm not the exact same guy I was 10 years ago. I thought differently, it was a different time. There has been certain events in my life that has changed me and my way of thinking...as I'm sure is the case with alot of you. So...if that's the case with me, I can damn sure buy it's the case with Reed and Tony too. They aren't acting like villains. They are doing what they think is right.

Nor is Reed the same as he was 12 issues ago :) Hey, I'm coming to accept it's what Marvel wants. The event is here to herald in the dark and dour Authority Marvel. I'll just have to find new fictional heroes to bring my kid up around :)

[Alan2099]

One thing I find funny is the complaint that Reed and Tony are acting out of character, or not the same as Stan Lee had writen them. It is officially 10 years in Marvel time, and I don't know about you...but I'm not the exact same guy I was 10 years ago.
Maybe not, but I'm more or less the same guy I was about a week ago. Unlike Tony and Reed.

They aren't acting like villains. They are doing what they think is right.
Dr. Doom does what he thinks is right. So does Magneto, The Lang family (Sentinel creators), Galactus, and even ffriggin CARNAGE. Just because you think you're doing the right thing doesn't mean you're not playing the part of the bad guy.

It's not bad because just YOU don't like it. I have yet to see a valid arguement that convinces me that CW is a poorly written and totally unentertaining story.
It's not a good one because YOU like it either. Forget the arguement, I've yet to see a decent COMIC showing me that the storyline is worth wasting time over.

[Norrin Radd]

One thing I find funny is the complaint that Reed and Tony are acting out of character, or not the same as Stan Lee had writen them. It is officially 10 years in Marvel time, and I don't know about you...but I'm not the exact same guy I was 10 years ago. I thought differently, it was a different time. There has been certain events in my life that has changed me and my way of thinking...as I'm sure is the case with alot of you. So...if that's the case with me, I can damn sure buy it's the case with Reed and Tony too.

They aren't the same people they were 10 years ago, per Marvel time. People change, sometimes drastically. There is NOTHING unrealistic or unreasonable about Reed and Tonys actions in CW. Plus, it's not like this has all come out of the blue. It has been leading up to this. Granted, the cloning thing is questionable actions. But I think the debate needs to be over the actions themselves and not the validity of whether or not they are acting they did 40 years ago when they were created.

If you wanna say that you don't like they way the writer's have taken the characters because they stray too far from their original aspects...ok fine, but don't flame the writers and storys for it. It's not bad because just YOU don't like it. I have yet to see a valid arguement that convinces me that CW is a poorly written and totally unentertaining story.

Indeed, people change through time. However, when you have about 40-50 years of continuity with these characters essentially being on the straight and narrow (with maybe a few lapses) and all of a sudden they're creating disposable people (i.e. clones) that are killing former heroic allies, I think that's quite a sudden, drastic change. If Mark Millar and co. want Reed to go in a radically different direction, that's perfectly valid. However, they didn't give us a sufficient reason to believe that all of a sudden he'd resort to this. If Reed had personally been affected by an occurrence related to Stamford (like Sue and Franklin dying or something) then maybe I could see him going nuts. But nothing as sufficient as this happened to make his change of character credible enough for me or for many other readers.

If Millar and co. want to change these characters, fine. But don't insult our intelligence by claiming that they've always been like this. Yes, you can make the argument that guys like Iron Man have gone over the top before, with events like Armor Wars, but ya know, Armor Wars is a fine example of an event where I could believe Tony would act differently. In the context of that story, his actions were believable for his character. In the context of Civil War, his actions are simply not believable. In Armor Wars, I got the sense that it was him against the world who didn't understand that going after villains, who had stolen his technology, was a problem that only he could fix or was willing to deal with. In Civil War, he just comes across as a cold-hearted, manipulative bastard acting with an unethical government to hunt down his fellow heroes. Why would he do this? It might be reasonable to me that he'd take the position of pro-registration, but not reasonable that he'd use these drastic means to go about enforcing it. I've never gotten the sense that the events in Stamford would give him sufficient justification for this because they didn't affect him personally enough (unlike Armor Wars which did affect him personally-it was his technology being used for evil purposes, not anyone else's).

It's basically a failure to set up motivational factors for the entire Civil War storyline that is causing all this controversy. It's like they're saying "Reed and Tony would act this way because that's just the way they are". Excuse me, but that's just not good enough.


They aren't acting like villains. They are doing what they think is right.

I bet you...so is Doc Doom, Magneto, etc.

[CyberCoyote]

Ooh, I read Illuminati! It's fully explained there, they've been jerks like this since after the Kree-Skrull war but were hiding it! Oh, those geniouses! What a load of poop (IMO of course). Retconning heroes into scumbags to fit the story. That's a new one.

[StoneGold]

Actually, if anything, this Reed is more like the one Stan and Jack were first writing way back when. You know, the one who stole a spaceship from the government and flew it into space despite knowing it had a lack of cosmic ray shielding, putting his best friend, his barely legal girlfriend and her kid brother at risk. The guy who hypnotized Skrulls into cows. And don't even let me get started on stuff like This Man, This Monster! Let's face it, Reed used to be a huge mega-jerk.



Oh yeah, then there's letting his hideously deformed best friend call himself the Thing, while he goes by Mr. Fantastic, then names the team after himself. Mr. Fantastic.... JERK!!!

[Alpow]

Maybe not, but I'm more or less the same guy I was about a week ago. Unlike Tony and Reed.

In Ironmans own series he just got finished acting like a jerk (including grabbing Cap by the throat and getting with a few seconds of a throw down with Logan), telling everybody that they were wrong and he was right (going so far as to say he hadn't changed but they had) and finally building an army of soulless automatons in order to bring about world peace (and they promptly went berserk and started killing people).


Seems to me he has hasn't changed that much from what he was up to pre civil war.

[XPac]

In Ironmans own series he just got finished acting like a jerk (including grabbing Cap by the throat and getting with a few seconds of a throw down with Logan), telling everybody that they were wrong and he was right (going so far as to say he hadn't changed but they had) and finally building an army of soulless automatons in order to bring about world peace (and they promptly went berserk and started killing people).


Seems to me he has hasn't changed that much from what he was up to pre civil war.

Kinda makes ya wonder why the government would put Tony in charge of the superhuman community after all that, don't it?

[bulbasteve]

Actually, if anything, this Reed is more like the one Stan and Jack were first writing way back when. You know, the one who stole a spaceship from the government and flew it into space despite knowing it had a lack of cosmic ray shielding, putting his best friend, his barely legal girlfriend and her kid brother at risk. The guy who hypnotized Skrulls into cows. And don't even let me get started on stuff like This Man, This Monster! Let's face it, Reed used to be a huge mega-jerk.


That cow thing actually happened?! Man I throught when I read about that in Earth X they were just making it up...but really....Skrull Cows...so crazy it has to be true.

[StoneGold]

That cow thing actually happened?! Man I throught when I read about that in Earth X they were just making it up...but really....Skrull Cows...so crazy it has to be true.
FF#2, available in various trade and DVD formats.

[Alpow]

Kinda makes ya wonder why the government would put Tony in charge of the superhuman community after all that, don't it?

They needed a turncoat, I mean pillar of the super human community to point the way.

Any port in a storm I guess.

[CyberCoyote]

The best was a story where the town drinking Skrull Cow milk turned them into shape shifters! Gotta love the Byrne FF.

Stealng a spaceship (that you designed), hypnotizing alien invaders, and the Thing stuff (he LET him call himself the Thing. How dare he :) He should have forced his will on Ben to stop that?) doesn't compare, to me, in the least with imprisoning old friends and possibly condemning them to madness, enslaving murderers, and creating soulless biological clones to fight your battles.

And This Man This Monster had a scientist who hated Reed Richards, took advantage of a depressed Ben Grimm and stole his power, intent on killing reed. When the opportunity arises the guy sacrifices himself to save Richards when he realizes what a noble and good man he is. I'm not sure what the harp on Reed is in that story. He's a bit short with Ben about his self pity, but he's still supportive of him.

http://cybercoyote.net/images/ff51p16.jpg

[StoneGold]

The best was a story where the town drinking Skrull Cow milk turned them into shape shifters! Gotta love the Byrne FF.

Stealng a spaceship (that you designed), hypnotizing alien invaders, and the Thing stuff (he LET him call himself the Thing. How dare he :) He should have forced his will on Ben to stop that?) doesn't compare, to me, in the least with imprisoning old friends and possibly condemning them to madness, enslaving murderers, and creating soulless biological clones to fight your battles.

Hey, I designed a tank! That means I can just go take one, right? Wrong. Oh, by the way, I apparently designed the tank to explode on impact. Seriously, Reed builds a crappy product, gets pissed when the government doesn't use his crappy product, then commits Grand Theft Spaceship.

I'm starting to wonder who was more messed up, Reed, or the other guy on the pro side, whose first instinct when the barely legal piece of trim whose father just kacked it asks him for help is to perform biological experiments on her.


And you left out the page where they go woops, my dangerous experiment just killed a guy! Oh well!

[Omega Alpha]

Actually, if anything, this Reed is more like the one Stan and Jack were first writing way back when. You know, the one who stole a spaceship from the government and flew it into space despite knowing it had a lack of cosmic ray shielding, putting his best friend, his barely legal girlfriend and her kid brother at risk. The guy who hypnotized Skrulls into cows. And don't even let me get started on stuff like This Man, This Monster! Let's face it, Reed used to be a huge mega-jerk.


Yeah. And Lee and Kirby's Prof X. mind-wipped people with no problem, fell in love with kids, manipulated everybody, etc. They only begun to be nice after the two of them left.

[StoneGold]

Yeah. And Lee and Kirby's Prof X. mind-wipped people with no problem, fell in love with kids, manipulated everybody, etc. They only begun to be nice after the two of them left.
Wait, wasn't it Roy's Prof. X that had the hots for Jean?

[SensorBoy]

That cow thing actually happened?! Man I throught when I read about that in Earth X they were just making it up...but really....Skrull Cows...so crazy it has to be true.


There was some incident involving milk from the skrows, in one of the FF Annuals. I think they got turned into BigMacs sometime later.

Reed Richards: Freak. The Power Pack kids are probably locked up in the Baxter Buildings sub-basement, providing "raw material" for the SuperClones.

[yeoman]

True. On the Rumbles forum a few months back, I defended Hill to try to provide some balance in the overall Civil War talk THERE.


And as crazy loco as Hill is, her front line troops and Allies are even more so.

[yeoman]

And yet if you stop a robber and saved lives with an un-regstered AK-47, a small tank and a missle launcher, the cops ARE going to arrest you, no matter what.


Becaue one is unlikely to have a liscence to own those vehicles in teh first place, much less operate them in an urban area.

Also, call me when Tankman has a history of stopping ancient cosmic beings from snacking on the planet.

The simple fact of the matter is that stuff on MU Earth *routinely* shows up that can annhilate all life on teh planet. And most every time it's stopped by some guy in a costume. Heck, Mr. Immortal saved the planet (Well, all creation, but the planet's in there somewhere).

The Stark regime is endangering the fabric of reality form any one of a dozen sources by keeping super-heroes from doing what they do best. At best.

[CyberCoyote]

Hey, I designed a tank! That means I can just go take one, right? Wrong. Oh, by the way, I apparently designed the tank to explode on impact. Seriously, Reed builds a crappy product, gets pissed when the government doesn't use his crappy product, then commits Grand Theft Spaceship.

And you left out the page where they go woops, my dangerous experiment just killed a guy! Oh well!

Actually in first Family they retconned the launch as being government supported to make up for that. Forgot about that one. That was never the greatest concept :) Maybe in the 60's with the desire to beat 'the commies' into space it worked but not by today's standards.

As for 'Oh well, guy died due to my experiment', he had the Fake Ben hold a tether, fake Ben, in that scene was going to let him Die, then changed his mind but it was too late and the tether snapped because he delayed. Fake Ben went in and, against Reed's wishes, tossed him back to the portal and trapped himself in there. Reed was totally distraught, the real Grimm came back looking for payback, and Reed proclaims that although he didn't know who the guy was or what his original hostile intentions were he made up for them like a true hero and faced the outcome of his folly. Doesn't seem like a 'Woops, my experiment killed someone."

http://cybercoyote.net/images/ff51p50.jpg

[CyberCoyote]

The Stark regime is endangering the fabric of reality form any one of a dozen sources by keeping super-heroes from doing what they do best. At best.

Fortunately the only criminals looking to take advantage of the lack of heroes on the street were Puppet Master and Thinker and they blew it (plus went after the one place heroes already were..duh?!?) Of course they get away with it because Ben Grimm had a complete brain cramp and didn't mention that the PM was behind it all. Ah, me loves my comics that make sense..

[StoneGold]

Actually in first Family they retconned the launch as being government supported to make up for that. Forgot about that one. That was never the greatest concept :) Maybe in the 60's with the desire to beat 'the commies' into space it worked but not by today's standards.

As for 'Oh well, guy died due to my experiment', he had the Fake Ben hold a tether, fake Ben, in that scene was going to let him Die, then changed his mind but it was too late and the tether snapped because he delayed. Fake Ben went in and, against Reed's wishes, tossed him back to the portal and trapped himself in there. Reed was totally distraught, the real Grimm came back looking for payback, and Reed proclaims that although he didn't know who the guy was or what his original hostile intentions were he made up for them like a true hero and faced the outcome of his folly. Doesn't seem like a 'Woops, my experiment killed someone."

Part a: Retcon from this year that may or may not end up being continuity. COTA wasn't, and I'm not sure the status of the Avengers book.

Part b : "Oh no! I killed Ben! Wait, no I didn't! Good thing the guy I killed went out like a man! In the meantime, I'll keep my door to the death dimension open."

[CyberCoyote]

Part a: Retcon from this year that may or may not end up being continuity. COTA wasn't, and I'm not sure the status of the Avengers book.

Part b : "Oh no! I killed Ben! Wait, no I didn't! Good thing the guy I killed went out like a man! In the meantime, I'll keep my door to the death dimension open."


Part A True: and it's dated. I'll give ya that

Part B: I give up. I ask my friend to hold a jack in place while I scoot under the car. My friends an..uh..evil twin (:) ) and is gonna drop the car on me. He pulls the jack out then has reservations and supports the car with his skull (hehe) I slide out.

Oh God, my friend is dead!
No I'm Not, that was..Billy!

I'm so glad you're okay! Turns out Billy was in the process of murdering me then had a change of heart and did the only thing he could. In the end he redeemed himself of the murder attempt he was planning.

But you're definitely not open to that interpretation so I'll give up. I'm pretty satisfied that if anyone else cared (and they don't I'm sure) the more positive perspective is the more accepted.

[Kirk G]

That cow thing actually happened?! Man I throught when I read about that in Earth X they were just making it up...but really....Skrull Cows...so crazy it has to be true.
After the jumping off point at the end of FF#2 (volume 1) circa 1961....
John Byrne came back and legitimized it in the immortal Fantastic Four Annual # 17 (the one with the portrait of the FF on the cover, framed in black, like all the annuals that summer appeared.)

IMHO that is one of the best FF stories in which the FF barely appear. Set in current continuity, it answers the question of what ever happened to those cows... even though we got the answer to that question back in Avengers #93 (volume 1)

I can't speak highly enough about the Annual #17. Go check it out. It is definitely worth the cost of hunting it up, even now, some fifteen to 20 years beyond.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Becaue one is unlikely to have a liscence to own those vehicles in teh first place, much less operate them in an urban area.

Congradulations, you just stumbled across the logic for Registration. When many superhumans have MORE power then the average tank, how do they get a free ride on being licenced?


Also, call me when Tankman has a history of stopping ancient cosmic beings from snacking on the planet.

The simple fact of the matter is that stuff on MU Earth *routinely* shows up that can annhilate all life on teh planet. And most every time it's stopped by some guy in a costume. Heck, Mr. Immortal saved the planet (Well, all creation, but the planet's in there somewhere).

Let's say Some Nerdy Scientist defeated Galactus with a Nuke. The man was a private citizen with a Nuke. The Goverment's going to want to take him in for questioning, even if he did save the world. Heck EVERY NATION ON EARTH is going to want to know where he got/built that nuke. and if they're going to let him keep nukes they're sure as hell going to want to know who he is and have them on there side.

And if you lived on earth and these things kept distroying things and then running away, would'nt you want them to be accountable?


The Stark regime is endangering the fabric of reality form any one of a dozen sources by keeping super-heroes from doing what they do best. At best.

Stark wants to orginze them. If we had all the superhumans on earth on the same page, most of these crossovers could have been taken care of quickly (yes I know it will not be that clean) tony was right in Illuminati when he said that they could have taken the Kree-Skrull war out early if they had all been working together.

And superheros get to do what the do best, they just have to register and get legitimate. Heck even the GLA registered.

[kalorama]

And superheros get to do what the do best, they just have to register and get legitimate. Heck even the GLA registered.

When you have to cite the GLA as ideological allies, you know you're in trouble.

[yeoman]

Fortunately the only criminals looking to take advantage of the lack of heroes on the street were Puppet Master and Thinker and they blew it (plus went after the one place heroes already were..duh?!?) Of course they get away with it because Ben Grimm had a complete brain cramp and didn't mention that the PM was behind it all. Ah, me loves my comics that make sense..

It's a good thing there isn't some cosmic space war endangering all the universe from forces beyond the edge of our universe in which Galactus has already fallen and the protector's of this world could desperately use the help Earth's heroes could provide.

Oh, wait.

Man, Richard Ryder is gonna be super pissed when he gets home.

[yeoman]

Congradulations, you just stumbled across the logic for Registration. When many superhumans have MORE power then the average tank, how do they get a free ride on being licenced?

Because it's not something that's just sitting around? It is them. These people arn't even being given a choice as to whether or not they want to leave the country or stop putting on masks. They're being rounded up and thrown into the negative zone.



Let's say Some Nerdy Scientist defeated Galactus with a Nuke. The man was a private citizen with a Nuke. The Goverment's going to want to take him in for questioning, even if he did save the world. Heck EVERY NATION ON EARTH is going to want to know where he got/built that nuke. and if they're going to let him keep nukes they're sure as hell going to want to know who he is and have them on there side.

And if you lived on earth and these things kept distroying things and then running away, would'nt you want them to be accountable?


When someone can beat down Galactus, and tells me here's here to help allmankind, I'm going to thank him politely and pray no one pisses him off. Which, ya know, is what the Meta-human registration act is designed to do.

These people have been saving the planet on a regular basis for over a decade. I'm not gonna get in their way.



Stark wants to orginze them.

No, he wants to be king high asshat and lock up anyone that disagrees.

If we had all the superhumans on earth on the same page, most of these crossovers could have been taken care of quickly (yes I know it will not be that clean)

Bull. The vast majority of the time once the crap hits the fan all these guys get on the same page, and it never helps.

Add to this that SHIELD is easier to infiltrate than a 7-11.

tony was right in Illuminati when he said that they could have taken the Kree-Skrull war out early if they had all been working together.

Yes, I'm sure the two races would have put aside their centuries old hatred of each other cause Tony "Douchebag" Stark told them too.

[jaxcs]

Wait, wasn't it Roy's Prof. X that had the hots for Jean?

who doesn't have the hots for jean?

[Jerry Kraut]

Isn't Reed Richard's saving Galactus in continuity?
Because Civil War looks like nothing in comparison.

who doesn't have the hots for jean?
Emma Forst?

Wait a second, that would explain quite a lot.

[Jerry Kraut]

She better blow him off, he's always been a jerk anyway, just like Namor actually, doesn't she now any nice men?

[Haunt]

She better blow him off, he's always been a jerk anyway, just like Namor actually, doesn't she now any nice men?


she did but Sue ignored them all. Scott Lang had the hots for her (well just look at the costume she was wearing) back when he was with the FF. his powers would have worked just as well as Reed's. and he probably wouldn't have spent all that time in a private lab ignoring her. oh and Ben Grimm also had a major crush on her but Reed kept transforming him back into the Thing.

http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=page3&issue=30929984076%20405

[SKJAM!]

I think we're already beginning to see Reed trying to pull himself out of the hole in this week's tie-ins. Of course, I do have to jigger the timeline a bit, but here goes....

Frontline #6, first story: Reed, behind the scenes, offers Sally Floyd a mysterious deal. If she's out of "undisclosed location" next issue, it obviously can't be one that offended her principles.

Civil War #4 happens. Reed is not at all happy about Clor getting out of control, but tries to stay calm and rational about it in public, so as not to let the side down. Sue bails out, shaking Reed some more, but he's still hanging on. Reed's determined to make this work, and Tony keeps claiming that he's got the less-scientific details covered.

FF whichever occurs, and Ben's out too. Reed's beginning to get really stressed, but tries to cover it with more work.

Then Amazing Spider-Man. Reed tells Peter about his uncle, and Spidey makes a rather cutting remark. Here, I get into speculation. While Reed still believes that the law is the law, and should be obeyed, he finally realizes that the people enforcing the law have to do so justly. And he's been neglecting that end of things. So he starts looking into ways to fix that.

So we go to the second story in Front Line, where Reed offers to let Robbie tell his side of the story to Congress. I speculate that while at the Negative Zone prison, Reed also gets Battlestar medical attention, and arranges for more humane treatment of those prisoners that can be humanely treated. Because, well, I like to believe that Mr. Fantastic is a decent person underneath.

Does this work for anyone else?

[Qwathings]

She better blow him off, he's always been a jerk anyway, just like Namor actually, doesn't she now any nice men?
Clor seemed nice. And he has an "off switch".

[TotalWorldDomination]

Because it's not something that's just sitting around? It is them. These people arn't even being given a choice as to whether or not they want to leave the country or stop putting on masks. They're being rounded up and thrown into the negative zone.

No, they are. You have to register, but after that it's up to you what you do. If you go around super-heroing after the regisration deadline (and if you did'nt know the deadline passed, they seem to make exceptions- see Ms. Marvel and She Hulk) you get thrown in prison untill you decide to register. From what Stark said in ASM, if they decide to register, they're let go (after training of course).

If you register and choose to retire, no one is going to stop you. Look at Ben Grimm. He's leaving for france. Do you see tony calling SHEILD? No, because the Thing decided to register first. If Falcon or any of those other Anti-Reg people registered and then quit there would be nothing the goverement could do (unless they also happened to be a slimy git like Wonder Man).

When someone can beat down Galactus, and tells me here's here to help allmankind, I'm going to thank him politely and pray no one pisses him off. Which, ya know, is what the Meta-human registration act is designed to do.

These people have been saving the planet on a regular basis for over a decade. I'm not gonna get in their way.

So If I had a stockpile of Nukes, used it to help mankind on one occasion and my only response to the goverment over how I got nukes was "Well, I'm here to help all mankind, you should'nt worry about it." would anyone be comfortable with that? And would the best strategy be to pray that I don't get pissed off? If that was true, I could do almost anything. Steal whatever I wanted, Kill indiscriminatly, distroy mass amounts of property, all because I have more personal power then you, and you need me if Galactus, the Kree or the Skrulls show up. Still sound like the way to go?

No, he wants to be king high asshat and lock up anyone that disagrees.

Not that disagrees, that refuses to follow the law. Look at X-Factor. They're even saying that they'd help unregistered superhumans excape. But they've committed no actual crime, and they're registered. I don't see SHEILD rading there homes.

Bull. The vast majority of the time once the crap hits the fan all these guys get on the same page, and it never helps.

Add to this that SHIELD is easier to infiltrate than a 7-11.

Yes, I'm sure the two races would have put aside their centuries old hatred of each other cause Tony "Douchebag" Stark told them too.

I'm talking about before the shit hits the fan. an Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. A truely orginized Superhuman community could have noticed that the Kree and the Skrulls were starting to infiltrate society and put a stop to it before there little battle came to earth by opposing kree and skrull activities.

I know that it would not have happened, because in order to have an actual comic you need to have conflict, but to the characters, and especialy to Tony Stark, this is more then possible.

And SHEILD sucks. I'm not going to try and defend them. They just suck.

[Sijo]

So If I had a stockpile of Nukes, used it to help mankind on one occasion and my only response to the goverment over how I got nukes was "Well, I'm here to help all mankind, you should'nt worry about it." would anyone be comfortable with that? And would the best strategy be to pray that I don't get pissed off? If that was true, I could do almost anything. Steal whatever I wanted, Kill indiscriminatly, distroy mass amounts of property, all because I have more personal power then you, and you need me if Galactus, the Kree or the Skrulls show up. Still sound like the way to go?

You DO realize that this IS how the real World works, don't you? The nations with the Nukes are the "superpowers", and they often get away with doing what they want because of it (or because of their superior economic power, etc.) We do not live in a World were the concensus of nations decides our well-being.
Which was one of the reasons I read superhero comics: to ESCAPE that grim fact. "Thank" you so much for bringing politics into your comics, Marvel. :evilangry

[AllisterH]

you register and choose to retire, no one is going to stop you. Look at Ben Grimm. He's leaving for france. Do you see tony calling SHEILD? No, because the Thing decided to register first.

Can I say again that marvel writers truly have no clue about the rest of the world. In our world, France had NATIONAL SERVICE up to 2001 (and that's a world where Earth isn't invaded on a daily basis and rogue nations like Doom's aren't basically a hop, skip and a jump away).

You think the Europeans even questioned this? Every mutant in continental Europe should be registered given

a) Europe's more stringent gun laws.
b) Many European countries have national ID cards
c) Many of them have a long history of national service.

Yet we in N. America complain about Selective services and the DRAFT? And Grimm thinks he can escape to France?

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

[XPac]

If you register and choose to retire, no one is going to stop you. Look at Ben Grimm. He's leaving for france. Do you see tony calling SHEILD? No, because the Thing decided to register first. If Falcon or any of those other Anti-Reg people registered and then quit there would be nothing the goverement could do (unless they also happened to be a slimy git like Wonder Man).





The thing is we don't know that there's nothing the government can do. We know that SHIELD can force Jessica Jones into service even if she has no interest in working for SHIELD.

The fact that Thing and Firestar have just been able to walk away so far could simply mean that SHIELD has no need for Thing or Firestar YET. It doesn't mean that they can't call them into service the same way the can Jessica Jones.

Maybe SHIELD will be nice about it... I don't know. Given their treatment of Wonderman (and everything else I've seen about the PRO side), I'm simply not at the point where I think assuming the best out of them is the right way to go. In practically every other aspect of the registration, they've frankly proven themselve to be WORSE than I gave them credit, so I'm certainly not going to think the best of them here.

[XPac]

Can I say again that marvel writers truly have no clue about the rest of the world. In our world, France had NATIONAL SERVICE up to 2001 (and that's a world where Earth isn't invaded on a daily basis and rogue nations like Doom's aren't basically a hop, skip and a jump away).

You think the Europeans even questioned this? Every mutant in continental Europe should be registered given

a) Europe's more stringent gun laws.
b) Many European countries have national ID cards
c) Many of them have a long history of national service.

Yet we in N. America complain about Selective services and the DRAFT? And Grimm thinks he can escape to France?

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!


No one has mentioned there's a superhero registration in Eurpone, and it doesn't seem much of a issue for excalibur. So I'm assuming at this point that there isn't one otherwise Stark and every other pro person would be pointing to Europe as a sucessful model.

[TotalWorldDomination]

The thing is we don't know that there's nothing the government can do. We know that SHIELD can force Jessica Jones into service even if she has no interest in working for SHIELD.

The fact that Thing and Firestar have just been able to walk away so far could simply mean that SHIELD has no need for Thing or Firestar YET. It doesn't mean that they can't call them into service the same way the can Jessica Jones.

Maybe SHIELD will be nice about it... I don't know. Given their treatment of Wonderman (and everything else I've seen about the PRO side), I'm simply not at the point where I think assuming the best out of them is the right way to go. In practically every other aspect of the registration, they've frankly proven themselve to be WORSE than I gave them credit, so I'm certainly not going to think the best of them here.

Where did it say that SHEILD could just call up Jessica Jones? That was never said in NA, or any other place. It was said that she would'nt be allowed to not register even if she promised not to go superheroing anymore. Registering is not equiviliant to a Draft. SHEILD had to pull out Wonder Man's IRS records to get him to spy on a damn fish. Unless Jessica Jones has Stolen massive amounts of money in an Enron like scam, she's not going to be doing anything.

[TotalWorldDomination]

You DO realize that this IS how the real World works, don't you? The nations with the Nukes are the "superpowers", and they often get away with doing what they want because of it (or because of their superior economic power, etc.) We do not live in a World were the concensus of nations decides our well-being.
Which was one of the reasons I read superhero comics: to ESCAPE that grim fact. "Thank" you so much for bringing politics into your comics, Marvel. :evilangry

I do get that, but nations cannot be considered individuals. It's more like if Corporations, Terrorist Groups, or private citizens or Public Interest groups had nukes. Non-Govermental agencies.

At least with a goverment you know they are responsible to there citizens (in the case of democracies anyway). A Priviate group or person is only responsible to themselves. So in essence it's like having a superpower that anwsers to no-one. No-one elected them. No nation can challenge them. They are just people. With Nukes.

[XPac]

Where did it say that SHEILD could just call up Jessica Jones? That was never said in NA, or any other place.

It was implied in New Avengers, and Tom Brevoort confirmed that they could call her into service in ask Tom thread. It's on pg 59.

I asked:
"I'm kind of confused. In one response you say the registration could be used as a "Backdoor draft" yet you're saying it can't force someone to operate as a super hero."

If Jessica Jones registers, isn't she signing a backdoor draft that allows SHIELD to suit up if SHIELD requires her to?

And Tom answered:
"Potentially, yes. But being called upon to work with SHIELD isn't the same thing as operating as a super hero."

[AllisterH]

No one has mentioned there's a superhero registration in Eurpone, and it doesn't seem much of a issue for excalibur. So I'm assuming at this point that there isn't one otherwise Stark and every other pro person would be pointing to Europe as a sucessful model.

That's my point though. The marvel writers don't seem to consider the Europeans as being distinct and more importantly, that what they think as "infringement of civil liberties" would not be seen in the same light as Europe does.

I'll use Germany for example. Why would Germany NOT register its superhumans. You would think that Germans would be the most sensitive about this and compared to the rest of continental Europe they are.

Still doesn't change the fact that Germany

a) Still has national service
b) Has a national ID card
c) Such stringent gun control laws that even the gun control lobby here would freak.
d) Less civil liberties than america. The German police are fully within their rights to simply arrest you if you don't have your ID on you (true, doesn't happen, but it is legal for them). Not your driving livense mind you, but your ID card if they happen to walk into you on the street....

Yet Germany doesn't have its supers registered? RIGHT!!!!.....

You can pretty much play the same scenario among the rest of Europe (either have ID cards, national service OR draconian gun control laws) so again, Grimm's running off to WHERE?

[XPac]

That's my point though. The marvel writers don't seem to consider the Europeans as being distinct and more importantly, that what they think as "infringement of civil liberties" would not be seen in the same light as Europe does.

I'll use Germany for example. Why would Germany NOT register its superhumans. You would think that Germans would be the most sensitive about this and compared to the rest of continental Europe they are.

Still doesn't change the fact that Germany

a) Still has national service
b) Has a national ID card
c) Such stringent gun control laws that even the gun control lobby here would freak.
d) Less civil liberties than america. The German police are fully within their rights to simply arrest you if you don't have your ID on you (true, doesn't happen, but it is legal for them). Not your driving livense mind you, but your ID card if they happen to walk into you on the street....

Yet Germany doesn't have its supers registered? RIGHT!!!!.....

You can pretty much play the same scenario among the rest of Europe (either have ID cards, national service OR draconian gun control laws) so again, Grimm's running off to WHERE?

Well, it's possible that other countries don't bother registring superhumans simply because there aren't enough superhumans to bother registering. Especially after Decimation.

New York City alone probably has at least time times as many metahumans as all of Europe and Asia combined.

[Jerry Kraut]

That's my point though. The marvel writers don't seem to consider the Europeans as being distinct and more importantly, that what they think as "infringement of civil liberties" would not be seen in the same light as Europe does.

I'll use Germany for example. Why would Germany NOT register its superhumans. You would think that Germans would be the most sensitive about this and compared to the rest of continental Europe they are.

Still doesn't change the fact that Germany

a) Still has national service
b) Has a national ID card
c) Such stringent gun control laws that even the gun control lobby here would freak.
d) Less civil liberties than america. The German police are fully within their rights to simply arrest you if you don't have your ID on you (true, doesn't happen, but it is legal for them). Not your driving livense mind you, but your ID card if they happen to walk into you on the street....

Yet Germany doesn't have its supers registered? RIGHT!!!!.....

You can pretty much play the same scenario among the rest of Europe (either have ID cards, national service OR draconian gun control laws) so again, Grimm's running off to WHERE?



Actually, your mistake is that your talking about "real world" germany, 616 germay might be very different.
For example, i think 616 germany would steer away from anything that looks like goverment employed metahumans since the 616 third reich had exactly that (and people with purple socks as mask but lets not go there), and used it for military purpose.

[SKJAM!]

So...anyone want to talk about Reed Richards' portrayal in Frontline #6?

[Magneto Rocks]

Why should we. I've resigned myself to the apparant reality that Frontline is in an alternate timeline where nothing makes sense and half the heroes we know are evil.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Why should we. I've resigned myself to the apparant reality that Frontline is in an alternate timeline where nothing makes sense and half the heroes we know are evil.

Motion Seconded

[bulbasteve]

Maybe SHIELD will be nice about it... I don't know. Given their treatment of Wonderman (and everything else I've seen about the PRO side), I'm simply not at the point where I think assuming the best out of them is the right way to go. In practically every other aspect of the registration, they've frankly proven themselve to be WORSE than I gave them credit, so I'm certainly not going to think the best of them here.

Didn't that case actually work out though? They said he was the only one with the ability to uncover the plot...and lo and behold he actually did. Seems some city was going to have (or will if he fails) about 6 bombs go off (and that was just what was listed on a map). So he is saving possibly hundreds if not thousands of people, and is getting his IRS records cleaned and that is a BAD thing? SHIELD and the U.S. Govenment seems to practically be acting like Saints compared to Weapon X and all that crazy **** Canada pulled.

[AllisterH]

Didn't that case actually work out though? They said he was the only one with the ability to uncover the plot...and lo and behold he actually did. Seems some city was going to have (or will if he fails) about 6 bombs go off (and that was just what was listed on a map). So he is saving possibly hundreds if not thousands of people, and is getting his IRS records cleaned and that is a BAD thing? SHIELD and the U.S. Govenment seems to practically be acting like Saints compared to Weapon X and all that crazy **** Canada pulled.

*LOL*

I'm Canadian and I'm not sure whether I should be horrified or proud whenever I read about the utterly bastardly things the Canadian government does via the Weapon X project.

Seriously, if Weapon X was better known, it makes the Sentinels look downright cozy and cuddly.

[XPac]

*LOL*

I'm Canadian and I'm not sure whether I should be horrified or proud whenever I read about the utterly bastardly things the Canadian government does via the Weapon X project.

Seriously, if Weapon X was better known, it makes the Sentinels look downright cozy and cuddly.

That's what makes it sort of funny that so many people are fleeing to Canada right now.

[kalorama]

Didn't that case actually work out though? They said he was the only one with the ability to uncover the plot...and lo and behold he actually did. Seems some city was going to have (or will if he fails) about 6 bombs go off (and that was just what was listed on a map). So he is saving possibly hundreds if not thousands of people, and is getting his IRS records cleaned and that is a BAD thing?

Nah. Blackmail and extortion are perfectly acceptable levers to get someone to do what you want.