In defense of Civil War (or, why I still love this title)...

[jbierly]

Here's the deal: the things we were told Civil War was going to be about haven't really panned out. But I think that what's emerged is still a relevent and interesting story. We just need to start thinking of it differently.

First of all, we have to address the idea that the marvel characters are all acting radically out of character in this storyline

I think that one of the things that distinguishes the marvel universe for me is the idea that characters evolve and change over time. 20 years ago Reed probably wouldn't do some of the things he's doing... but you're talking about a guy who recently took control of a small nation, and who stormed the gates of heaven... as time has gone on, events in Reed's life have moved him more and more toward wanting to control the world. He's sick of his kids being in danger all the time. He's sick of how messed up everything is, and he wants it all to stop. This all makes perfect sense considering the way Reed's character has developed in his own book.

Iron man I know less about, but recently he has taken high profile government jobs. He's also been through two huge super hero tragedies (dissassembled and HoM), and likewise he's looking for a way to make it all stop.

Hank has finally come to peace with himself after the destruction of the last ultron. He can move on now, and try to make the world a better place. He's looking for a new vision of how to shape a better world. Reed and Tony provide that.

Remember, these heroes have been doing things the traditional vigilante hero thing for awhile now. They've waited for villian threats to show up, then squashed them. Countless civillians have lost their lives over the years, not to mention the property damage. The US is a mess.

Many heroes in recent year have tried to get more proactive. Remember Buseik's avengers?

All reed and tony and hank are doing is going a step further. The presence of all kinds of supernatural beings, superpowered crooks and high tech in the world is causing all sorts of problems. With the number of superhero battles that must go on in a week in New York City alone, America is a mess. Think about it; forty years of comics, the stories taking place over a period of ten years. Many titles had a villain a month for years. That's a lot of superhero battles. The US in the marvel universe has got to feel like a warzone to the average civillian.

Then Kang nukes Washington, and Scarlet Witch disbands the world's foremost protectors. Genosha is toast. Magneto flips out on NYC, killing tons of people. Mutants lose their powers in huge numbers, leading to even more riots and killing. The Red Skull sets off WMDs in several cities, and over 600 people are wiped out in an instant in Stamford, to list just a few of the recent casualties.

The current way of doing superheroing simply isn't cutting it. The deaths and tragedies aren't getting less, they're getting greater. What Reed, Tony and Hank are proposing is that nothing short of a radical, huge transformation in the way the supernatural aspects of the marvel universe are dealt with can stop the killing and tragedy.

It's about more than just training heroes, it's about taking control of the country's supernatural resources, cloning more, taking out all the supervillians on the streets using whatever means necessary, it's about building new facilities and programs (49) that can get threats off the streets and even out of our reality, and turning some of their power to the use of the government whenever possible (ie the new thunderbolts). It's about the big scientific minds of the marvel community stepping up and doing what fans have wondered for years why they didn't do: trying to radically transform the world through their power and technology. And I think the things I listed are just the start of the Fifty States Initiative.

The point is that R, T and H have had ENOUGH of all the endless suffering and misery caused by the way the marvel universe has worked up to this point, and they are going to do every thing in their power to put a stop to it.

in short, their actions are BECAUSE of the massive continuity behind the marvel universe, not apart from it.

Likewise, captain america has seen what happens when governments decide to take control and end all the problems of a nation by whatever means necessary in the Nazis. Not that RTH are actually Nazis yet, but cap hates to see where this is going.

But the problem is that the status quo isn't solving the problem. Cap's way leads to anarchy, RTH way leads to fascism.

It's kind of like the moral dilemmas of V for Vendetta, only I think done in a way that invites us to really think about the concepts more. In V, both sides are as horrible as possible. But in Civil War, both sides are composed of genuine heroes who are genuinely trying to do what is right. Tony may cross some lines, but he's certainly not going to kill a bunch of kids with a plague to get his way. Cap may get desperate, but he's not going to blow up congress, or slice people to death with knives.

Hence, you have people with two competing ideologies that are both quite justifyable in the here and now. The problem is that both sides can see where the other's ideology can lead to a hideous and deadly end (fascism or anarchy). And so, they see their opponent's as grave threats to a civil, democratic society.

Actually, it does sound a lot like our current debate once you get right down to it... we're constantly looking at the political 'other' and envisioning how their agenda could lead to communism, fascism, anarchy, corruption... the problem is that our opponents rarely actually advocate these things, but we see how they could, and so we fight them with everything we have... our political discourse in this nation has long ago left the point of rational discussion. Everyone sees it as a time when everything is on the line, when you either fight for security or freedom or civil liberties or what have you or the ideals of the nation perish.

The marvel characters are embodying the way our nation feels. It's civil war, and everyone thinks everything they hold dear is at stake.

The scary thing is, they're all right.

That's why I think Civil War is evolving to be an even more compelling and relevant story, even with all the crazy sci-fi goodness of clones and airplane surfing and bad guys with chips in their heads. It's doing what good superhero comics have always done; reflecting the culture in an out-of-this world, over the top way, so that by taking things into the fanciful and the extreme, we can come to see things in the mundane world in a different light.

[bulbasteve]

:eek:

Great summary of the worth and motivations of the event and characters.

oh and uuuh...the art is great too

[DoctorDoom]

Doom couldn't have said it better himself. Hats off to you sir.

[Slade.]

the art is FANTASTIC

i love it


and yes this is still a good crossover. people are just over exagarating and getting their panties in a twist over nothing. as usual. as ALWAYS.

[Kefky]

Like I said in another thread, it's telling an entertaining, exciting, interesting story that's making people talk. That's what crossovers are supposed to do.


Also, this has the best use of tie-ins I have ever seen in a crossover. Complain about bias all you like, but they're interesting, quality stories that add depht to the main storyline, and at the same time, are perfectly enjoyable as stand-alones.

[cbjones]

Great analysis. The basic question of Civil War is one we face in this country today: How much are we will to curtail personal freedoms in the name of security? In the Marvel Universe, the Stamford incident brought this issue to the forefront. In the real world, we had 9/11.

I think the answers are very different though. I don't think we're any safer in the real world five years after 9/11. I just read about an innocent Canadian citizen who was mistakenly believed to have ties to Al Qaeda. He was kidnapped by the CIA, taken to Syria and tortured. They actually got him to sign a fake confession. I don't think forcing every super-powered individual in the Marvel Universe to register with the government is right, but maybe it should be necessary for vigilantes. If it weren't for Stamford, maybe a compromise could have been reached. But when cataclysmic disasters hit, people don't think straight. They act on emotions instead of thinking things through -- both in the Marvel Universe and the real world.

[yeoman]

Here's the deal: the things we were told Civil War was going to be about haven't really panned out. But I think that what's emerged is still a relevent and interesting story. We just need to start thinking of it differently.

First of all, we have to address the idea that the marvel characters are all acting radically out of character in this storyline

I think that one of the things that distinguishes the marvel universe for me is the idea that characters evolve and change over time. 20 years ago Reed probably wouldn't do some of the things he's doing... but you're talking about a guy who recently took control of a small nation, and who stormed the gates of heaven... as time has gone on, events in Reed's life have moved him more and more toward wanting to control the world. He's sick of his kids being in danger all the time. He's sick of how messed up everything is, and he wants it all to stop. This all makes perfect sense considering the way Reed's character has developed in his own book.


In other words, he's now Doom's moral inferior.

Iron man I know less about, but recently he has taken high profile government jobs. He's also been through two huge super hero tragedies (dissassembled and HoM), and likewise he's looking for a way to make it all stop.

By becoming a fascist that works with people that would gleefully take lethal shots at fleeing minors. And I'm talking about SHIELD here, not even Bullseye.


Hank has finally come to peace with himself after the destruction of the last ultron. He can move on now, and try to make the world a better place. He's looking for a new vision of how to shape a better world. Reed and Tony provide that.

And he should have learned by now that every time he tries to do this he ****s it up. Ultron being the prime example.


Remember, these heroes have been doing things the traditional vigilante hero thing for awhile now. They've waited for villian threats to show up, then squashed them. Countless civillians have lost their lives over the years, not to mention the property damage. The US is a mess.

And they're doing it by becoming super villians.

They have a clone army, a crazed clone of one of the world's mightiest heroes, and of the three, only Hank has started to think this might not be a good idea.

The average member of the Thunderbolts is morally and ethically superior to these three.

And in the case of Stark, even Zemo looks good next to him. Helmut. Friggin' Zemo. Hercules, who got his ass beat down into a coma on Zemo's order, would rather work with Zemo than Stark.

The plain and simple fact is, if this is supposed to be remoletly in character than Tony at the least, very likely Reed, and possibly Cap and Hank, have all become Super-villians. Period.

And that's just sad.

[CyberCoyote]

In other words, he's now Doom's moral inferior.

The plain and simple fact is, if this is supposed to be remoletly in character than Tony at the least, very likely Reed, and possibly Cap and Hank, have all become Super-villians. Period.

And that's just sad.

I'm on yeoman's side, but the only thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to get people to 'talk' about an issue. Forgive the image, but if Matt Murdock was brutally raped by the KingPin it'd get people talking. Getting a lot of people talking positively is the real challenge (re: Annihilation)

I think it would be awesome to have heroes in the MU be licensed law enforcement, as much as these characters have been positive role models for decades they've always (well, often) worked outside the law. NOT a good message. It's just the three ring circus of converting these long time heroes into shadows of their enemies in this story line that kills the concept for me.

[Kefky]

I'm on yeoman's side, but the only thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to get people to 'talk' about an issue. Forgive the image, but if Matt Murdock was brutally raped by the KingPin it'd get people talking. Getting a lot of people talking positively is the real challenge (re: Annihilation)

That's a real bold statement there, if you're making the assumption that more people are enjoying and talking about anihilation than civil war.... Can you back it up with facts?

[CyberCoyote]

That's a real bold statement there, if you're making the assumption that more people are enjoying and talking about anihilation than civil war.... Can you back it up with facts?

What I'm saying is the discussions ABOUT Annihilation are almost 100% positive. CW is pretty split on like its and hate its. Plus there's my personal opinion which has tinted my comparisons :) We don't have the EIC of Marvel having a sit down discussion with the fans every week about Annhi either to help promote it, so it's a pretty uneven sales playing field. That sounds a lot like a cop out, I know. We'll never know how things would have played out sales wise so it is a hopeless jab in the dark on my part :(

[roundman]

I have really been enjoying this Civil War storyline. Reed seems very out-of-character, as does Cap, but otherwise everyone else seems to be reasonably within character (when you consider everything that has happened recently in the Marvel Universe).

My biggest gripe is that the tie-ins aren't very well coordinated with one another and with the main books. Things are happening out of sequence. For instance, Cyclops and White Queen discuss her prior relationship with Tony Stark in X-Men 1, which came out in July. In the most recent issue of Wolverine, published two months after X-Men 1, Cyclops and Emma seem shocked when Wolverine mentions the relationship. Deadpool and Cable 31 mentioned that Thor killed someone prior to the release of Civil War 4, which dampened the shock of Civil War 4.

Other than that gripe, I've enjoyed this storyline. It's been an interesting/riveting tale. The main book has beautiful art, and has provided some great action scenes and cliffhangers. The tie-ins have been interesting (except Heroes for Hire, IMO). They're bringing in tons of obscure and rarely seen characters (like Bantam and the Slingers), which adds to the sense that the story truly is of sweeping scope. Besides the mentioned synchronization problems (which are annoying) and some characterization issues, I'd say that this is an excellent story.

P.S. Annihilation is outstanding. I recommend that everyone go out and give it a try. They've managed to make characters like Ronan the Accuser and Quasar interesting, which is quite a feat.

[XPac]

P.S. Annihilation is outstanding. I recommend that everyone go out and give it a try. They've managed to make characters like Ronan the Accuser and Quasar interesting, which is quite a feat.

Course, if you're one of those people that already found Quasar interesting you might have one or two complaints. But that's a discussion for a different board.

Annihilation is cool. Marvel is putting out 2 massive crossover at the same time, and the amazing thng is BOTH are very good in very different ways. I almost feel bad for Annihilation, because it probalby would have been a bigger more hyped event if it wasn't simoteneously occuring with CW. Hell, even the Watchers are too busy watching CW to pay Annihilation any attention.

[Will.S]

Hell, even the Watchers are too busy watching CW to pay Annihilation any attention.
Hah that is pretty funny now that you mention it!

[roundman]

Annihilation is cool. Marvel is putting out 2 massive crossover at the same time, and the amazing thng is BOTH are very good in very different ways. I almost feel bad for Annihilation, because it probalby would have been a bigger more hyped event if it wasn't simoteneously occuring with CW. Hell, even the Watchers are too busy watching CW to pay Annihilation any attention.

yeah, the lack of Watchers in Annihilation is puzzling. There are more Watchers than just Uatu. Maybe they're around, but just off-panel. Who knows?

[yeoman]

I have really been enjoying this Civil War storyline. Reed seems very out-of-character, as does Cap, but otherwise everyone else seems to be reasonably within character (when you consider everything that has happened recently in the Marvel Universe).

Tony's in character only once you realize he's got his booze supply directly hooked up to his helmet.

Tony: YEAH! *hic* shend in Bulsheye! That'll keep 'em in line!

Hank: Uh, he's killed fifteen people.

Tony: Ya, but I *hic* hatesh Capsh guysh! And loshers that hang out with Daredevil!

Hank: No, those were SHIELD agents. And that was in the last five minutes.

[CyberCoyote]

yeah, the lack of Watchers in Annihilation is puzzling. There are more Watchers than just Uatu. Maybe they're around, but just off-panel. Who knows?


Hmm..Skrull and Kree Empire..Bill Foster. Empires..Foster. :D

[yeoman]

I'm on yeoman's side, but the only thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to get people to 'talk' about an issue. Forgive the image, but if Matt Murdock was brutally raped by the KingPin it'd get people talking. Getting a lot of people talking positively is the real challenge (re: Annihilation)

I think it would be awesome to have heroes in the MU be licensed law enforcement, as much as these characters have been positive role models for decades they've always (well, often) worked outside the law. NOT a good message. It's just the three ring circus of converting these long time heroes into shadows of their enemies in this story line that kills the concept for me.

The problem is, Tony and his boys took a Zero Tolerance approach. Sign up with SHIELD, do as we tell you, or we drag you, your wife and your infant kid out of your home in the middle of the night. And then put you in the Negative Zone.

Will someone please explain to me how that does not sound like a Dr. Doom plan?

And, please, someone try to defend SHIELD's actions in Runaways/Young Avengers, much less elsewhere.

[XPac]

Will someone please explain to me how that does not sound like a Dr. Doom plan?



That's not really fair to say though ... I'm sure Dr. Doom could come up with a much better plan than this.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Here's the deal: the things we were told Civil War was going to be about haven't really panned out. But I think that what's emerged is still a relevent and interesting story. We just need to start thinking of it differently.

First of all, we have to address the idea that the marvel characters are all acting radically out of character in this storyline

I think that one of the things that distinguishes the marvel universe for me is the idea that characters evolve and change over time. 20 years ago Reed probably wouldn't do some of the things he's doing... but you're talking about a guy who recently took control of a small nation, and who stormed the gates of heaven... as time has gone on, events in Reed's life have moved him more and more toward wanting to control the world. He's sick of his kids being in danger all the time. He's sick of how messed up everything is, and he wants it all to stop. This all makes perfect sense considering the way Reed's character has developed in his own book.

Iron man I know less about, but recently he has taken high profile government jobs. He's also been through two huge super hero tragedies (dissassembled and HoM), and likewise he's looking for a way to make it all stop.

Hank has finally come to peace with himself after the destruction of the last ultron. He can move on now, and try to make the world a better place. He's looking for a new vision of how to shape a better world. Reed and Tony provide that.

Remember, these heroes have been doing things the traditional vigilante hero thing for awhile now. They've waited for villian threats to show up, then squashed them. Countless civillians have lost their lives over the years, not to mention the property damage. The US is a mess.

Many heroes in recent year have tried to get more proactive. Remember Buseik's avengers?

All reed and tony and hank are doing is going a step further. The presence of all kinds of supernatural beings, superpowered crooks and high tech in the world is causing all sorts of problems. With the number of superhero battles that must go on in a week in New York City alone, America is a mess. Think about it; forty years of comics, the stories taking place over a period of ten years. Many titles had a villain a month for years. That's a lot of superhero battles. The US in the marvel universe has got to feel like a warzone to the average civillian.

Then Kang nukes Washington, and Scarlet Witch disbands the world's foremost protectors. Genosha is toast. Magneto flips out on NYC, killing tons of people. Mutants lose their powers in huge numbers, leading to even more riots and killing. The Red Skull sets off WMDs in several cities, and over 600 people are wiped out in an instant in Stamford, to list just a few of the recent casualties.

The current way of doing superheroing simply isn't cutting it. The deaths and tragedies aren't getting less, they're getting greater. What Reed, Tony and Hank are proposing is that nothing short of a radical, huge transformation in the way the supernatural aspects of the marvel universe are dealt with can stop the killing and tragedy.

It's about more than just training heroes, it's about taking control of the country's supernatural resources, cloning more, taking out all the supervillians on the streets using whatever means necessary, it's about building new facilities and programs (49) that can get threats off the streets and even out of our reality, and turning some of their power to the use of the government whenever possible (ie the new thunderbolts). It's about the big scientific minds of the marvel community stepping up and doing what fans have wondered for years why they didn't do: trying to radically transform the world through their power and technology. And I think the things I listed are just the start of the Fifty States Initiative.

The point is that R, T and H have had ENOUGH of all the endless suffering and misery caused by the way the marvel universe has worked up to this point, and they are going to do every thing in their power to put a stop to it.

in short, their actions are BECAUSE of the massive continuity behind the marvel universe, not apart from it.

Likewise, captain america has seen what happens when governments decide to take control and end all the problems of a nation by whatever means necessary in the Nazis. Not that RTH are actually Nazis yet, but cap hates to see where this is going.

But the problem is that the status quo isn't solving the problem. Cap's way leads to anarchy, RTH way leads to fascism.

It's kind of like the moral dilemmas of V for Vendetta, only I think done in a way that invites us to really think about the concepts more. In V, both sides are as horrible as possible. But in Civil War, both sides are composed of genuine heroes who are genuinely trying to do what is right. Tony may cross some lines, but he's certainly not going to kill a bunch of kids with a plague to get his way. Cap may get desperate, but he's not going to blow up congress, or slice people to death with knives.

Hence, you have people with two competing ideologies that are both quite justifyable in the here and now. The problem is that both sides can see where the other's ideology can lead to a hideous and deadly end (fascism or anarchy). And so, they see their opponent's as grave threats to a civil, democratic society.

Actually, it does sound a lot like our current debate once you get right down to it... we're constantly looking at the political 'other' and envisioning how their agenda could lead to communism, fascism, anarchy, corruption... the problem is that our opponents rarely actually advocate these things, but we see how they could, and so we fight them with everything we have... our political discourse in this nation has long ago left the point of rational discussion. Everyone sees it as a time when everything is on the line, when you either fight for security or freedom or civil liberties or what have you or the ideals of the nation perish.

The marvel characters are embodying the way our nation feels. It's civil war, and everyone thinks everything they hold dear is at stake.

The scary thing is, they're all right.

That's why I think Civil War is evolving to be an even more compelling and relevant story, even with all the crazy sci-fi goodness of clones and airplane surfing and bad guys with chips in their heads. It's doing what good superhero comics have always done; reflecting the culture in an out-of-this world, over the top way, so that by taking things into the fanciful and the extreme, we can come to see things in the mundane world in a different light.


Could you please write a tie-in for marvel. Any tie-in. Just one. One gosh-darn fair tie in that will explain it like you just explained it.

Bravo.

[roundman]

Tony's in character only once you realize he's got his booze supply directly hooked up to his helmet.

Tony: YEAH! *hic* shend in Bulsheye! That'll keep 'em in line!

Hank: Uh, he's killed fifteen people.

Tony: Ya, but I *hic* hatesh Capsh guysh! And loshers that hang out with Daredevil!

Hank: No, those were SHIELD agents. And that was in the last five minutes.

Iron Man hasn't always been a pure hero. He can be a bastard. Remember Armor Wars? Alternatively, maybe this Stark is the same Stark who was revealed to have been working with Kang back prior to the Onslaught saga. That storyline was lost in the whole Onslaught/ Heroes Reborn madness and never really wrapped up. Anyway, I can see this Civil War characterization as being within the realm of possibility for Tony Stark. It's a stretch, but it's not as bad to me as it is to some people here.

Cap's acting like a raving lunatic seems much less in character to me. He grew up in the 1930s, and he was drafted into the military himself. He's being written as if he had never considered the idea of super-hero consription before. I think that he'd have a more nuanced position on the registration act than what has been shown.

The characterization of Reed Richards is completely out of the blue to me. Doesn't seem to fit him at all.

[yeoman]

Iron Man hasn't always been a pure hero. He can be a bastard. Remember Armor Wars? Alternatively, maybe this Stark is the same Stark who was revealed to have been working with Kang back prior to the Onslaught saga. That storyline was lost in the whole Onslaught/ Heroes Reborn madness and never really wrapped up. Anyway, I can see this Civil War characterization as being within the realm of possibility for Tony Stark. It's a stretch, but it's not as bad to me as it is to some people here.



A) That's the plot line that gave us Teen Tony. Which might just have been a worse Idea then Clor.

B) I think Buseik wrapped it up in Avengers Forver by hitting it with a hefty dose of space Phantoms.

[gorthon616]

Course, if you're one of those people that already found Quasar interesting you might have one or two complaints. But that's a discussion for a different board.

Hey, he had a pretty sweet cover sho on an issue of Nova at least.

[gorthon616]

Iron Man hasn't always been a pure hero. He can be a bastard. Remember Armor Wars? Alternatively, maybe this Stark is the same Stark who was revealed to have been working with Kang back prior to the Onslaught saga. That storyline was lost in the whole Onslaught/ Heroes Reborn madness and never really wrapped up. Anyway, I can see this Civil War characterization as being within the realm of possibility for Tony Stark. It's a stretch, but it's not as bad to me as it is to some people here.

Cap's acting like a raving lunatic seems much less in character to me. He grew up in the 1930s, and he was drafted into the military himself. He's being written as if he had never considered the idea of super-hero consription before. I think that he'd have a more nuanced position on the registration act than what has been shown.

The characterization of Reed Richards is completely out of the blue to me. Doesn't seem to fit him at all.

It's a stretch. Yes. And it is **possible**. And I will say (I said this before somewhere else) that his personality is very much in line with his character (in my opinion). However, his actions (i.e. the plot) is very out of place. Being a "bastard" is nothing compared to the extreme's he is taking within the story. I could see it happening, but not with the set-up they gave him nor the situations surrounding him. They just fiat that he's "at the extreme," and that is why people have issues with him. This is like Hal Jordan (except less extreme but with less pressure on him).

And as far as Cap is, yes he is acting out of character too. I find his actions to be somewhat in line, but his personality is waaay out of whack.

Let's stop talking about Civil War and start talking about Anhilation.

[bulbasteve]

What I'm saying is the discussions ABOUT Annihilation are almost 100% positive. CW is pretty split on like its and hate its. Plus there's my personal opinion which has tinted my comparisons :) We don't have the EIC of Marvel having a sit down discussion with the fans every week about Annhi either to help promote it, so it's a pretty uneven sales playing field. That sounds a lot like a cop out, I know. We'll never know how things would have played out sales wise so it is a hopeless jab in the dark on my part :(

Probably cause there isn't much cosmic stories told so everythign looks good :D

Or cause noone really knows the characters, so they can't claim "oh god they are raping my childhood!!"

And I guess the negativity about Civil War comes with the territory. In any even remotely political discussion there will always be those who just dismiss the whole idea of it. If this was just a story about the heroes defending the earth from Galactus or something I'm sure you wouldn't see as many complaints...

[gorthon616]

Probably cause there isn't much cosmic stories told so everythign looks good :D

Or cause noone really knows the characters, so they can't claim "oh god they are raping my childhood!!"

And I guess the negativity about Civil War comes with the territory. In any even remotely political discussion there will always be those who just dismiss the whole idea of it. If this was just a story about the heroes defending the earth from Galactus or something I'm sure you wouldn't see as many complaints...

I don't think it has to do anything with the "nature" of the story. I just think it has to do with the "hype," the implicit "relevance" of the story, and the fact that there is an entire forum that is dedicated to it.

The fact that people dismiss it IMO goes against it as being relevant and poignant. I don't think people discuss very much on "if" Watchmen has relevant things to say, they discuss what it has to say. But since the only thing that Civil War has to say is that "people go crazy and act out of character sometimes" (which genuinely is the argument people who enjoy the book make) the only real discussion is whether that is good writing or bad writing.

[roundman]

Annihilation is cool. Marvel is putting out 2 massive crossover at the same time, and the amazing thng is BOTH are very good in very different ways. I almost feel bad for Annihilation, because it probalby would have been a bigger more hyped event if it wasn't simoteneously occuring with CW. Hell, even the Watchers are too busy watching CW to pay Annihilation any attention.

Maybe Annihilation and Civil War will ultimately tie in to each other. Imagine this scenario:

Possible spoilers for those who haven't been reading Annihilation..

The Civil War has reached its highest point. Pitched battle has been joined between the Pro-regs, complete with their villains and clones, vs. the Anti-regs, whose numbers have grown significantly thanks to the death of Goliath and who have recently added the authentic Thor to their ranks. Just as the battle royale is about to begin, just as the Sentry and the real Thor are about to slam into each other, the Silver Surfer swoops in between them. Haggard, he warns them that the Annihilation wave, an alien invasion which has destroyed the Kree and Skrull empires is about to slam into the Earth. The two sides briefly call a truce to discuss the matter with the Surfer, who further informs them of the involvement of Annihilus and his Centurions, Thanos, Tenebrous, and Aegis.

Sobered by the impending onslaught, the two sides agree to temporarily put aside their differences and jointly defend Earth. The Surfer aides them by bringing with him the remaining Heralds, Nova and his forces, the Hulk (who the Surfer brings from exile out of necessity), and maybe the Shiar Imperial Guards who decide that it's in the best interests of the Shiar to make a stand and pool their resources with Earth rather than to wait and face the Annihilation wave alone.

A battle unlike which has ever been seen before rages as soon as the Annihilation wave reaches the Solar System. Many heroes, villains, and those in between die. Iron Man and Reed Richards both perish in the struggle. Ultimately, the universe is saved by the Sentry, who sacrifices himself to slay Aegis, Tenebrous, and a super-powered Annihilus.

In the aftermath of this battle, both the pro and anti sides realize that they have been in the wrong. With their two dedicated (obsessed?) leaders dead, those in the pro-side with misgivings about their methods (Hank Pym, Spiderman) take a conciliatory stance towards the antis.

The recent events will make the antis open to reconciliation. First of all, the two members of the pro-side who could not be forgiven for their actions had been killed in action. Secondly, the antis, faced with the stark reality that humanity faces very real threats to its survival from hostile alien and cosmic beings, concedes that there needs to be some mechanism to ensure that there are trained superheroes available when needed. A moderate form of the SRA and 50 states initiative goes into effect, with the caveat that registered heroes can't be conscripted. Though some hard feelings remain on both sides (especially on the part of the Hulk), and though some relationships will have been destroyed beyond repair, the remaining heroes bury their dead and focus on rebuilding the Earth.

This ties the three major summer storylines together, fundamentally changes the Marvel Universe (after all, Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic are both dead, and the SRA is still in effect), it explains why theWatcher is hanging around (the climactic battle of an amazingly destructive alien invasion seems to be more Watcher-worthy than the death of Bill Foster), and it offers a plausible way to reconcile the pros and antis (something that would appear to be impossible).

I'm almost certain that they're not going to tie Annihilation and Civil War together, but I think that it would be very exciting if they did.

[XPac]

Maybe Annihilation and Civil War will ultimately tie in to each other. Imagine this scenario:

Possible spoilers for those who haven't been reading Annihilation..

The Civil War has reached its highest point. Pitched battle has been joined between the Pro-regs, complete with their villains and clones, vs. the Anti-regs, whose numbers have grown significantly thanks to the death of Goliath and who have recently added the authentic Thor to their ranks. Just as the battle royale is about to begin, just as the Sentry and the real Thor are about to slam into each other, the Silver Surfer swoops in between them. Haggard, he warns them that the Annihilation wave, an alien invasion which has destroyed the Kree and Skrull empires is about to slam into the Earth. The two sides briefly call a truce to discuss the matter with the Surfer, who further informs them of the involvement of Annihilus and his Centurions, Thanos, Tenebrous, and Aegis.

Sobered by the impending onslaught, the two sides agree to temporarily put aside their differences and jointly defend Earth. The Surfer aides them by bringing with him the remaining Heralds, Nova and his forces, the Hulk (who the Surfer brings from exile out of necessity), and maybe the Shiar Imperial Guards who decide that it's in the best interests of the Shiar to make a stand and pool their resources with Earth rather than to wait and face the Annihilation wave alone.

A battle unlike which has ever been seen before rages as soon as the Annihilation wave reaches the Solar System. Many heroes, villains, and those in between die. Iron Man and Reed Richards both perish in the struggle. Ultimately, the universe is saved by the Sentry, who sacrifices himself to slay Aegis, Tenebrous, and a super-powered Annihilus.

In the aftermath of this battle, both the pro and anti sides realize that they have been in the wrong. With their two dedicated (obsessed?) leaders dead, those in the pro-side with misgivings about their methods (Hank Pym, Spiderman) take a conciliatory stance towards the antis.

The recent events will make the antis open to reconciliation. First of all, the two members of the pro-side who could not be forgiven for their actions had been killed in action. Secondly, the antis, faced with the stark reality that humanity faces very real threats to its survival from hostile alien and cosmic beings, concedes that there needs to be some mechanism to ensure that there are trained superheroes available when needed. A moderate form of the SRA and 50 states initiative goes into effect, with the caveat that registered heroes can't be conscripted. Though some hard feelings remain on both sides (especially on the part of the Hulk), and though some relationships will have been destroyed beyond repair, the remaining heroes bury their dead and focus on rebuilding the Earth.

This ties the three major summer storylines together, fundamentally changes the Marvel Universe (after all, Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic are both dead, and the SRA is still in effect), it explains why theWatcher is hanging around (the climactic battle of an amazingly destructive alien invasion seems to be more Watcher-worthy than the death of Bill Foster), and it offers a plausible way to reconcile the pros and antis (something that would appear to be impossible).

I'm almost certain that they're not going to tie Annihilation and Civil War together, but I think that it would be very exciting if they did.


Yeah, if they wanted a way to unite the heroes again, the Annihilation Wave would word.

In fact had Annihilation Wave come after Civil War, I think in some ways that would work very well. Regardless of who wins Civil War both sides would undoubtedly be pretty angry and battling the Annihilation wave would help to remind them why they are heroes.

That said... I think a Nova story could actually do a nice job of tying in the Annihilation aftermath with the Civil War aftermath. Civil War started because his old team was killed... and he's arguably the big hero in Annihilation (or one of them at least). He's that connection between that cosmic corner and the earth bound MU.

[CyberCoyote]

Probably cause there isn't much cosmic stories told so everythign looks good :D

Or cause noone really knows the characters, so they can't claim "oh god they are raping my childhood!!"

And I guess the negativity about Civil War comes with the territory. In any even remotely political discussion there will always be those who just dismiss the whole idea of it. If this was just a story about the heroes defending the earth from Galactus or something I'm sure you wouldn't see as many complaints...

I'm an old time fan of both cosmic and earthbound, so I can't really relay any perspective on that, but it's a good point.

The way characters are being..prodded..into other directions in CW (which new readers wouldn't recognise, as you said) came up elsewhere concerning a post about comics 'catching up to the times'. I think a lot of my dislike stems from that. It would make for some fabulous stories if the characters as we've always known them had to adapt to the 'times' and the new perceived enviroment (somehow I think there've always been political undertones). But what I see in CW is the characters being altered to reflect these changes moreso than the enviroment they exist in.

[jackolover]

jbierly, I have always wondered about the connection between MU and real world politics and you have summed up the link nicely. You've been lucky not to have very much criticism about your summary of CW, as other threads have been savagely debated, point for point. However, your post has had a quiet, reasonable, response so far.

I am adding my agreement to others who have said your comments about CW are fair and well thought out. It almost sounds like a class lecture on the subject. Or a political argument. But every piece of information and reference you've made, is reasonable and in context. Most of the facts I am aware of, and you have described the characters and the issues in a setting that makes them come together.

The connection between political debate and the CW, was interesting and eye-opening. I liked the dichotomy of Cap and Tony, and how their respective positions take on meaning, yet are a fallacy. To me you insinuate that the CW will be resolved at some middle ground between their two positions. Sort of like a moderating compromise.

I echo another poster who wishes you write an explanitory tie-in using just the words in this summary.

One last question. Where, or which book, did Hank Pym see the last of his Ultrons destroyed?

[jackolover]

Here's the deal: the things we were told Civil War was going to be about haven't really panned out. But I think that what's emerged is still a relevent and interesting story. We just need to start thinking of it differently.

I'm not sure as to what we were to expect from CW that we didn't recieve.

What I found about CW that held me, was the variation of comics which carried it. Obscure books I would never contemplate getting, carried snippets of the story. If the worth of a crossover is measured in how many books is taken up, I think I have a 100% hit rate. I think what attracted me to the concept of CW was the utter rejection of the SHRA I felt when I first read the Amazing Spiderman Road to CW. Here were 2 really respected heroes calmly discussing something I thought was totatally unnecesary. Yet, there were threads of argument that pinched at my conscience, and so I had to hear out the opposing side.

I was wondering what Ms Marvel and X-Factor could possibly bring to open up the arguments for CW, and I was surprised to see not only CW dynamic, but interesting sub-plots, unrelated. So, I got a mixture of CW intrigue, and surprising stories of people I had never seen before.

My overall revelation about CW would have to be, that a comic has entranced a whole world of posters, and sent them in waves of outpouring within this thread. Waves, because we get these books in 7 day lots, and the main books, in 2 monthly lots. This cyclic resurgence of information exchange, has been the most enjoyment, I think, I have experienced from such a big event. I don't know if Forum discussions were a part of crossover events of the 1990's, but this has been extraordinary.

[CyberCoyote]

Ok, I've been pretty vehement about the whole thing having only read the reviews of the others and purchasing #4 because, like peeking under a bandage, I just had to see the wound :) So yesterday I bummed the Illuminati and 1-3 from a friend.

I was very surprised to read in the Illuminati book by Bendis Namor, Strange, and T'Challa were painted in such a good light. They were the ones not giving in to the madness that is CW. The 'Futurist' thing.. I don't know what to make of that. Pretty much saying he's like the Mad Thinker? That he pretty much 'foresaw' all of the events that will transpire and in the end only becomes a pawn in those premonitions was just rather bland to me.

I think what Marvel had for a premise here was pretty good, I just cannot stand what they've turned Reed Richards into. There's a whole thread on that so I won't get into it. He, like Tony, is totally unredeemable now. He has lied to his friends and family, supposedly manipulated them for years playing this little game (and in his bouts of air madness and while making plays for Sue Namor's amazingly managed to keep his mouth shut. Nope). Millar said Reed was Marvel's biggest @#$ and has effectively created a retcon to prove it. It's not that he was in the first place, he just changed history a bit to force him into the mold he wants him in.

If it weren't for the unheroic, backstabbing, over the top actions of Reed and Tony this thing really could have flown for me. That such a positive portrayal of Strange, Namor, and the Wakandan King were set was very good. But then to make the advocates of the SHRA so overwhelmingly crude just destroys the story. We could still be against them without the mind control/imprisonment/cloning/Hulk banishing actions. And now to counter it all Cap is starting to look like a sad old man. Instead of building on the characters to promote the story it seems they are being hamstrung.

Take out those few elements and I'd like it too.

[jackolover]

You know what I love about CW? It's written in a free form, uncluttered by any web of intrigue, such as Spiderman Other, Avengers vs Kang, or the FF vs Doom (on the whole, with a few minor exceptions). Nothing seems to be going on over this syndicate-wide epic, so that, on reflection, you can appreciate the little cooperative of Pym/Stark/Richards as a landmark incident.

And it's going to last a long time without intrusive drama's affecting it, because CW will run like this till January 2007, at least.

CW is an open plot, with almost a landscape over which the reader surveys. You don't have jumping stories in other books, clouding the overall epic. Every book contains at least some aspect of the event.

I think I will look back at CW as a story that cleaned the surface of MU, because it totally distracted every character by it's machinations.

[Editor]

My biggest gripe is that the tie-ins aren't very well coordinated with one another and with the main books. Things are happening out of sequence. For instance, Cyclops and White Queen discuss her prior relationship with Tony Stark in X-Men 1, which came out in July. In the most recent issue of Wolverine, published two months after X-Men 1, Cyclops and Emma seem shocked when Wolverine mentions the relationship. Deadpool and Cable 31 mentioned that Thor killed someone prior to the release of Civil War 4, which dampened the shock of Civil War 4.


Nowhere in my X-Men:CW #1 does Emma discuss with Cyclops her relatonship with Tony.

She talks to Tony about it in CW #3.

Then in Wolverine (which takes place later) she's surprised when Wolverine brings it up. Either because she didn't know he knew or because he did it so blatantly in front of Scott.

I don't see the problem there.

With C&D I can see where you're coming from but on the other hand it got people tralking and speculating as to who it was going to be. I was cool with that.

[Slumber Hulk]

Good overview but... Don't you think most of these problem could have been solved more realisticly?

The easist thing to do is either ACTUALLY EFFECTIVELY lock up supervillians! Think of the number of them who are repeat offenders after being caught, then escaping. The Stamford Incident is a great case in point, the NW tackled a battle that spun out of the Raft incident. You said the US feels like a warzone but we only fought the Nazi's once, we didn't imprission them and let them escape 12 times.

If Tony, Reed and Hank started careing sooner all the raft guys could have been in the Negative Zone then what chance would Electro have had of freeing them?

And, is there no death penalty in the marvel universe? How much mayhem and death do you have to cause before you get put down.

[Wonder Dude]

Cap's acting like a raving lunatic seems much less in character to me. He grew up in the 1930s, and he was drafted into the military himself. He's being written as if he had never considered the idea of super-hero consription before. I think that he'd have a more nuanced position on the registration act than what has been shown.

Add to this the fact that he volunteered for his enhancement and the Secret Empire storyline and you understand why he has strong feelings on this subject.

[Kefky]

Add to this the fact that he volunteered for his enhancement and the Secret Empire storyline and you understand why he has strong feelings on this subject.

I understand why he'd be against, but I don't get why he decided to "illegal underground superhero" instead of actually trying to do something about the act.

What he's doing doesn't help anyone in the long run, and only puts his life and everyone else's in danger everyday. Meanwhile, his country's turning into his worst nightmare.

It's like he isn't thinking things trough at all. Does he even have some kind of long-term plan?

[jackolover]

What I like about CW is the new rules

The old rules were:-

You're a hero
You see a villian, or he's doing a heist
The hero takes down the villian
The authorities love you.

The new rules are different rules :-

You don't know you're a hero anymore
The Punisher could be the new hero
There are no more villians and there are no more heists
You don't know where the authorities are going to come from to get you.
You either become a good guy, or, you are a hired bad guy becoming a good guy.

These new rules make reading the CW and Tie-ins completely different to what we've been used too in the past. In fact, the whole feel to the stories opens up the landscape to new visions, and clears away the stale air which was endless repetition. Sure, I miss the old rules, where the heros feel good about themselves. But really. This is Marvel. None of the heros should be allowed to feel good about themslves. That was Stan Lees premise when he started the MU - Nobody has a happy life. Everybody has a psychosis. Mark Millar and company are just bringing the show back to it's roots.

Keep them off balance. And that's what CW is doing.

[superfriend]

This is most definitely one of those everything-you-thought-you-knew-is-wrong type of stories. The same thing might not be said, interestingly enough, if this had occurred in the Ultimate Universe but that's a different discussion.

A couple key points:

- The people vs. superheroes
We've been indoctrinated by The Marvel Way™ to think that the superheroes are Joe Average, relatable, could be any of us. Not like DC's notion of heroes as Icons.

Civil War is creating a cognitive dissonance with how we've always thought of the protagonists and asking to much of us, I think, when it wants us to believe that a generally bigotted and fearful populace (again, supposedly more real compared to the optimistic, borderline hero-worshipping populace of the DCU) have it right and the heroes should be punished for the salivific and useful work we've been reading about for 40 years our time...an everyday task for them.

It puts distance between that relatability and tempts people to begin to think of the superheroes as WMDs, or worse the enemy, when we have only ever been asked, up to this point, to sympathize with them.

And to bolster the case and not make it so one-sided, they have pitted heroes vs. heroes. That wasn't so convincing so they've done damage control during the skip month to make Iron Man more sympathetic and flesh out a proper motivation.

- To vigilante or not to vigilante?
So if vigilantism has been illegal in the MU all along, then why so many superheroes? and why, upon gaining superpowers, does a person develop a theme, a suit and a crime fighting methodology?...knowing all along that it's illegal?

Because with great power comes great responsibility? Certainly explains the masks doesn't it. But what does that leave us with? Outlaws who disregard the higher authorities. Common criminals who decide to take matters into their own hands.

All of these characters, with some exceptions, are lawbreakers and knowingly so. That's not the definition of a hero. It gets dangerously close to overturning a standard trope of the genre; akin to kicking one of the legs out from under the table that holds the whole thing up.

So if it's been illegal all along, then how does one do a reality TV show about it? permits? if they had permits and were sanctioned in some way, then how are they as villified as they have been? and what's the SHRA but a stronger assertion of an existing law that people should be following anyway? What is it's use?

Answers and explanations could be conjured but it begins to grind so much into reality that it removes something. To much deconstruction and you're left with nothing, no?

- What is a hero in the Marvel Universe?
Civil War asks people (or at least those for the Pro-side) to at least consider that what the heroes of the MU have been doing all this time is a sham. That they have been deemed heroes incorrectly and there is, at least, the possibility that they have been negligent and self-serving...at most, completely corrupt.

This is what the SHRA asks us to entertain about our superheroes. I choose to think of it as a perspective put on them because of a bigotted and fearful populace...which is very well in keeping with what we know about the denizens of the MU. They don't know what's going on half the time and more often than not, they choose to punish or destroy what they don't understand. For all they know, Magneto is the same as the X-Men and all mutants should be controlled or eliminated.

This is why Civil War doesn't work for me as a plight for the SHRA or the people that live in the MU. It asks too much. It asks me to invalidate and think differently about everything that's come before it. After rooting for these characters and not the citizens of the MU, I'm finding it difficult to side with the faceless, unknowable population of the MU. The superheroes are people to me, not weapons, and they are not all the same. I am privy to enough of the goings on of the MU that I know there are heroes and there are villains and having the heroes treated like villains because of the SHRA is difficult.

- The everything-you-know-is-wrong story
There have been situations where these types of concepts have been used (Batman's on-again, off-again relationship with the authorities in Gotham or even Spider-Man's turn as unlawful misfit) but so long as it wasn't used as a point to revolve an event of this magnitude around, the willing suspension of disbelief allowed me to completely glaze over putting my head around this...but with Civil War...it's really falling apart for me.

There are seeming inconsistencies where there never really needed to be and explanations are required now that, perhaps, can't possibly explain it all.

One of those what-you-knew-is-wrong type of things again.

These types of stories always beg the question though...is Civil War good enough? It is worthy enough of a story to overturn or redefine all those years of really great stories and how we've come to know the characters thus far?

They say the victors write history and those currently running Marvel appear to be "winning" convincingly.

Fortunately, it's not over and there may be hope yet.

[jackolover]

This is most definitely one of those everything-you-thought-you-knew-is-wrong type of stories. The same thing might not be said, interestingly enough, if this had occurred in the Ultimate Universe but that's a different discussion.

A couple key points:

- The people vs. superheroes
We've been indoctrinated by The Marvel Way™ to think that the superheroes are Joe Average, relatable, could be any of us. Not like DC's notion of heroes as Icons.

Civil War is creating a cognitive dissonance with how we've always thought of the protagonists and asking to much of us, I think, when it wants us to believe that a generally bigotted and fearful populace (again, supposedly more real compared to the optimistic, borderline hero-worshipping populace of the DCU) have it right and the heroes should be punished for the salivific and useful work we've been reading about for 40 years our time...an everyday task for them.

It puts distance between that relatability and tempts people to begin to think of the superheroes as WMDs, or worse the enemy, when we have only ever been asked, up to this point, to sympathize with them.

And to bolster the case and not make it so one-sided, they have pitted heroes vs. heroes. That wasn't so convincing so they've done damage control during the skip month to make Iron Man more sympathetic and flesh out a proper motivation.

- To vigilante or not to vigilante?
So if vigilantism has been illegal in the MU all along, then why so many superheroes? and why, upon gaining superpowers, does a person develop a theme, a suit and a crime fighting methodology?...knowing all along that it's illegal?

Because with great power comes great responsibility? Certainly explains the masks doesn't it. But what does that leave us with? Outlaws who disregard the higher authorities. Common criminals who decide to take matters into their own hands.

All of these characters, with some exceptions, are lawbreakers and knowingly so. That's not the definition of a hero. It gets dangerously close to overturning a standard trope of the genre; akin to kicking one of the legs out from under the table that holds the whole thing up.

So if it's been illegal all along, then how does one do a reality TV show about it? permits? if they had permits and were sanctioned in some way, then how are they as villified as they have been? and what's the SHRA but a stronger assertion of an existing law that people should be following anyway? What is it's use?

Answers and explanations could be conjured but it begins to grind so much into reality that it removes something. To much deconstruction and you're left with nothing, no?

- What is a hero in the Marvel Universe?
Civil War asks people (or at least those for the Pro-side) to at least consider that what the heroes of the MU have been doing all this time is a sham. That they have been deemed heroes incorrectly and there is, at least, the possibility that they have been negligent and self-serving...at most, completely corrupt.

This is what the SHRA asks us to entertain about our superheroes. I choose to think of it as a perspective put on them because of a bigotted and fearful populace...which is very well in keeping with what we know about the denizens of the MU. They don't know what's going on half the time and more often than not, they choose to punish or destroy what they don't understand. For all they know, Magneto is the same as the X-Men and all mutants should be controlled or eliminated.

This is why Civil War doesn't work for me as a plight for the SHRA or the people that live in the MU. It asks too much. It asks me to invalidate and think differently about everything that's come before it. After rooting for these characters and not the citizens of the MU, I'm finding it difficult to side with the faceless, unknowable population of the MU. The superheroes are people to me, not weapons, and they are not all the same. I am privy to enough of the goings on of the MU that I know there are heroes and there are villains and having the heroes treated like villains because of the SHRA is difficult.

- The everything-you-know-is-wrong story
There have been situations where these types of concepts have been used (Batman's on-again, off-again relationship with the authorities in Gotham or even Spider-Man's turn as unlawful misfit) but so long as it wasn't used as a point to revolve an event of this magnitude around, the willing suspension of disbelief allowed me to completely glaze over putting my head around this...but with Civil War...it's really falling apart for me.

There are seeming inconsistencies where there never really needed to be and explanations are required now that, perhaps, can't possibly explain it all.

One of those what-you-knew-is-wrong type of things again.

These types of stories always beg the question though...is Civil War good enough? It is worthy enough of a story to overturn or redefine all those years of really great stories and how we've come to know the characters thus far?

They say the victors write history and those currently running Marvel appear to be "winning" convincingly.

Fortunately, it's not over and there may be hope yet.

I take the view that CW (whether it is a 'what-you-knew-is-wrong type of thing), to be a step away from what I considered was stale 2 dimensional storytelling. I think CW is stripping heros naked, where their costumes don't mean jack shit anymore to the public. They have to start again.

I take it, superfriend, that you see the CW as being a false premise, because 40 years of continuity can't be wrong if it worked for so long. A fair point.

Many people are invoking inconsistancies and the need for explainations to tie the CW together, or, that these things are missing and that's why CW doesn't tie together.

You know what CW looks like to me? It looks like borders in civil, county, state and country have been wiped away. And by that I mean all the laws that these statutes used to hold. We saw the heros operate in a compact, cotton-wooled, environment. Low motalities occurred, with many seeming deaths resurrected later, making the believability suspension a strong ingrediant of the genre.

I think we have always lived with a ton of suspension of belief all this time, so altering it from the MU, to the CW, is not that much of an effort. So I don't see that all that much inconsistency and explaination is more required for CW than it has for the past.

The way we see heros, now in the CW, as compared to the previous 40 years of continuity, is a valid point, because it puts to question as to what the F**** the MU population were thinking, up to this point. This is what really riled me when I first stated reading CW, because I couldn't get it out of my head, that heros were heros. By definition, that was enough. Why chase after them to register? However, the further I went into the story, the question of heroism became less important, because the stories opened up unusual possibilities, and I forgot about heroism. The only one who didn't forget about heroism was Cap.

I don't think heroism is important anymore. I don't know where Millar and co are going with this line of thinking, but let me surmise. I think Millar and co. are looking at a society that will be a total homologous mixture of humans, mutants and supers. No sub-groups anymore. No pointing to that group and saying - Oh, there're mutants and they're not part of us. I see the supers operating without the invisible badgers they've been proudly carrying, to set them apart from everyone else. I think it's a natural progression of society to try to bring everyone down to the same level.

This summary may be breaking the unsaid law of Super-Hero Comic Books -that there are heros, and there are villians, and the heros save the population from the clutches of the bad. But I have a willingnes to wait, to see how this new society pans out.

[AllisterH]

My response to the last two posts is

"Why the assumption that being a hero means you don't work for the government/arent accountable"?

Are firefighters not heroes in the true sense of the word or are they just in it for a buck? What about those police officers that ran INTO the Twin Towers? I mean, they must've known those buildings were in danger of collapsing yet they still went in? Are they not heroes?

[jackolover]

My response to the last two posts is

"Why the assumption that being a hero means you don't work for the government/arent accountable"?

Are firefighters not heroes in the true sense of the word or are they just in it for a buck? What about those police officers that ran INTO the Twin Towers? I mean, they must've known those buildings were in danger of collapsing yet they still went in? Are they not heroes?

Not sure I see this definition of being a hero you give, as being peppered throughout the posts. Maybe I should have said supers instead of heros. Is that any better?

[AllisterH]

Not sure I see this definition of being a hero you give, as being peppered throughout the posts. Maybe I should have said supers instead of heros. Is that any better?

There is an argument that working for the government means that the various superheroes won't be heroes anymore. In other words, they'll be in it for a buck and not altruistic reasons as it is now according to anti-reg posters.

My point is that this is hogwash as we obviously have heroes like police officers and firefighters who work/accountable to the government.

[jackolover]

My point is that this is hogwash as we obviously have heroes like police officers and firefighters who work/accountable to the government.

What's hogwash? The concept of superheros depicted as heros, or, that police, fire, ambulance should be the only depictions of heroism, not superheros?