Has reading Civil War caused you to switch sides? *spoilers*

[Canadian]

I was initially pro-Registration, but after reading issue 4 I am switching sides like Sue and Johnny (and from the looks of it Spidey). Cloning Thor (and other heroes), killing Goliath, and hiring Super-Villains has shown me that perhaps Tony's team is pushing it a wee bit too far.

I am not certain if I really like the Civil War in general, but issues 3 and 4 have hooked me enough to continue the series and see how it ends.


(I'm still hoping the real Thor will return and Spidey will ditch that armour)



I guess I should have put SPOILER on the thread title, but by now I'm sure most people have read issue 4. Sorry if I ruined anything for you.

[Gregg Helmberger]

I was initially pro-Registration, but after reading issue 4 I am switching sides like Sue and Johnny (and from the looks of it Spidey). Cloning Thor (and other heroes), killing Goliath, and hiring Super-Villains has shown me that perhaps Tony's team is pushing it a wee bit too far.

I am not certain if I really like the Civil War in general, but issues 3 and 4 have hooked me enough to continue the series and see how it ends.


(I'm still hoping the real Thor will return and Spidey will ditch that armour)

Spidey loses the armor, but according to Millar, real Thor doesn't come back yet. Instead, "Clor" will continue on after this series ends (though I don't intend to buy any book that features a murderous clone, THANK you very much).

To answer your question, I was anti-reg when this began and I'm a hundred times more anti-reg now. The pro-reg leaders are acting like conscienceless madmen -- in the past, they'd have been attacking people who act like they're acting now. It's like they've all lost their monkey-lovin' minds.

[Cardiac]

No. When I started reading, I was anti-registration and now I'm even more anti-registration, as in destroy IM and the other pro-regs.

[Canadian]

according to Millar, real Thor doesn't come back yet. Instead, "Clor" will continue on after this series ends (though I don't intend to buy any book that features a murderous clone, THANK you very much).


That sucks! The clone has to go (by the hand of the real Thor if possible). If the clone is the star of the new Thor series coming in 07, then I guess I won't be buying it either.

[tk421atpost]

I was anti-reg at the start and if anything, I'm even more anti-reg than before.

[We R. Venom]

I was anti-reg at the start and if anything, I'm even more anti-reg than before.

Words, out of mouth, damn right!

[Magneto Rocks]

I was anti-reg at first, then I realised how ridiculously overreactive and flat-out stupid the anti-reggers are, and it's Tony who is doing the right thing, no matter how hard.

Pro-Reg all the way now!

[gorthon616]

I was anti-reg at first, then I realised how ridiculously overreactive and flat-out stupid the anti-reggers are, and it's Tony who is doing the right thing, no matter how hard.

Pro-Reg all the way now!

Curious. Can you go into more depth? Is this on the basis of what is going on in the storyline? Or just towards the generalize notion of whether or not Registration is a legitimate thing?

[Nevets F]

That sucks! The clone has to go (by the hand of the real Thor if possible). If the clone is the star of the new Thor series coming in 07, then I guess I won't be buying it either.

The real Thor is also coming back, over in the FF title. That one has nothing to do with this Thor clone. The real hammer is there already too. The clones is fake.

[Markavian]

I might quibble over small details like having the Federal Goverment not SHEILD handle the SHRA .Or Being 100% of the time Drafted but Heroes should be in a Ready Reserve and undergo training and such ...Be accountible.:cool:

[Pike]

Despite how heavy-handed Marvel have been to show the pro-reg as the bad guys, registration makes sense.

Pro-reg.

[Magneto Rocks]

Curious. Can you go into more depth? Is this on the basis of what is going on in the storyline? Or just towards the generalize notion of whether or not Registration is a legitimate thing?

Little of both. Firstly, it should be noted I'm frankly disgusted at how the fanboy community has reacted to this. Literally blowing EVERYTHING Tony says or does out of proportion and ignoring Cap's many faults.

In fact, in CW4 alone, people are concentrating on 'evil Tony and Reed' Well, let's see, in just this issue....

Tony seemed to care a lot more than Cap that GOLIATH WAS DEAD
Hank Pym- again, very affected by Goliath
Cap sees the thing as a freaking OPPURTUNITY to gain heroes
Tony REPEATEDLY pleads with Cap to just stand down.
The pro side were genuinely angered and sorrowful about what happened.
The pro-side REGRET the conseuqences of their actions. The anti-regs do things wrong and then TO HELL with the consequences.
One would think the anti-reggers would at least try to go to the funeral, even from a distance, even via camera or something!

But in general, overall, when looked at from a neutral perspective it seems to be this:

Pro-side have the RIGHT reason, the right justification and motive, but their actions are a little more questionable.
Cap has a totally WRONG reason, WRONG motives.... and his actions are flat-out radical.

Seriously, the fan community loves to skim the little details when it comes to Cap. Do I agree with using a Thor clone? Well, if it has ethics, I can understand why they did it- and they had no way of knowing it DIDN'T. DO I agree with super-villains? If they are being tagged, if there is NO CHANCE of escape.... well, it's extreme, but it has to be done. There's no other way of enforcing the law, and desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't agree with it, no. But nor do I agree with Cap's side.

[Aztec Ace]

Firstly, it should be noted I'm frankly disgusted at how the fanboy community has reacted to this. .

By fanboy community, do you mean this fan community? :confused:

[CapFan]

Nope, I'm still anti-reg. I think the idea of the government training superhumans and becoming their agents to help the world is a GREAT idea, BUT.. it should not be a law. It violates the freedom of choice and privacy of those who does not want to work for the government, including those who wish to pursue a normal life and those who got their powers by accident. :)

And thanks! There's my new sig. :)

[Gregg Helmberger]

Little of both. Firstly, it should be noted I'm frankly disgusted at how the fanboy community has reacted to this. Literally blowing EVERYTHING Tony says or does out of proportion and ignoring Cap's many faults.

In fact, in CW4 alone, people are concentrating on 'evil Tony and Reed' Well, let's see, in just this issue....

Tony seemed to care a lot more than Cap that GOLIATH WAS DEAD
Hank Pym- again, very affected by Goliath
Cap sees the thing as a freaking OPPURTUNITY to gain heroes
Tony REPEATEDLY pleads with Cap to just stand down.
The pro side were genuinely angered and sorrowful about what happened.
The pro-side REGRET the conseuqences of their actions. The anti-regs do things wrong and then TO HELL with the consequences.
One would think the anti-reggers would at least try to go to the funeral, even from a distance, even via camera or something!

But in general, overall, when looked at from a neutral perspective it seems to be this:

Pro-side have the RIGHT reason, the right justification and motive, but their actions are a little more questionable.
Cap has a totally WRONG reason, WRONG motives.... and his actions are flat-out radical.

Seriously, the fan community loves to skim the little details when it comes to Cap. Do I agree with using a Thor clone? Well, if it has ethics, I can understand why they did it- and they had no way of knowing it DIDN'T. DO I agree with super-villains? If they are being tagged, if there is NO CHANCE of escape.... well, it's extreme, but it has to be done. There's no other way of enforcing the law, and desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't agree with it, no. But nor do I agree with Cap's side.


Not to start the same argument all over again that can be found in any thread, but I would point out that the pro-reg people on this board are just as stubborn as the anti-regs, just as willing to ignore or gloss over the transgressions of their side, just as willing to unreasonably demonize the other side, and just as responsible for the polarization of the argument. Notice, please, that I'm not suggesting that my side doesn't share the same characteristics -- I'm just saying that accusing one side of it without recognizing the same in the other side is disingenuous at best.

[bulbasteve]

I might quibble over small details like having the Federal Goverment not SHEILD handle the SHRA .Or Being 100% of the time Drafted but Heroes should be in a Ready Reserve and undergo training and such ...Be accountible.:cool:

Wait, so which do you want? As it is now the Fed is in control of the heroes but many are lent out to SHIELD (or SHIELD backdoor drafts some), and only like half on the list are working for SHIELD and seem to be actively doing anything, the GLA seems to have moved back home and are doign their thing (or training?)

Anyway pro-reg since I heard about the concept, still that today. It just makes sense!

Not to start the same argument all over again that can be found in any thread, but I would point out that the pro-reg people on this board are just as stubborn as the anti-regs, just as willing to ignore or gloss over the transgressions of their side, just as willing to unreasonably demonize the other side, and just as responsible for the polarization of the argument. Notice, please, that I'm not suggesting that my side doesn't share the same characteristics -- I'm just saying that accusing one side of it without recognizing the same in the other side is disingenuous at best.

Unlike Cap the pro-sides "questionable details" can be overturned by the Supreme Court. Personally I think clones are probably a bad idea, or even the really evil Thunderbolts team. But that is no reason to just throw out the entire act. Anything that needs to be fixed can be fixed within the legislative or judicial process.

[Magneto Rocks]

Gregg- Honestly, I don't believe it's anywhere near AS true.

I'm perfectly willing to admit, as I did above, I don't agree with using super-villains. I don't agree with Reed distancing himself so much from his family. I don't agree with Tony 'cloning' Thor per se, though I can understand it.

There's a lot I don't agree with, but I understand WHY they are doing it, and I believe their greater good overshadows what they do wrong. They are far from perfect. Whereas most of the anti-reg supporters demonise even the good things Tony does and elevate Cap's worst mistakes into acts of sainthood.

[CapFan]

Gregg- Honestly, I don't believe it's anywhere near AS true.

I'm perfectly willing to admit, as I did above, I don't agree with using super-villains. I don't agree with Reed distancing himself so much from his family. I don't agree with Tony 'cloning' Thor per se, though I can understand it.

There's a lot I don't agree with, but I understand WHY they are doing it, and I believe their greater good overshadows what they do wrong. They are far from perfect. Whereas most of the anti-reg supporters demonise even the good things Tony does and elevate Cap's worst mistakes into acts of sainthood.

Intentions to make a "Civil War - I'm with Luigi" banner rising.... :D

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Switch sides, no. My view on the whole thing is pretty much the same now as it was after I'd read #1 - registration is a good idea, but it's being implemented poorly, with needlessly autocratic legislation and one-sided enforcement. So while, philosophically speaking, I guess I'm pro-reg, for the purpose of this particular conflict, and this incarnation of registration, I'm anti.

What has changed has been my view of Captain America. Initially I was much more sympathetic to his stance - I wouldn't say I wholly agreed that a military resistance was the way to go, but I didn't feel that Cap posed a danger to the wellbeing of the nation as such. Now I'm not so sure. As much as I still think that the pro-reg camp is being way too heavy-handed, when I look at Cap now I see someone who's lost the plot, and is fighting because he's angry that he was forced to fight in the first place. A man like that is capable of anything, because the more he fights, the more damage he does in the name of his cause, the more he'll hate the people opposing him. Frankly it wouldn't surprise me if this ends up with Cap squaring off against a pro-reg hero and killing him.

(If it were up to me, it'd be Tony Stark - I actually like Tony, but I can't think of anything that'd be a stronger finale than Captain America standing over Stark's dead body and realising what he's done. But as Marvel would no doubt like to keep selling Iron Man comics - without incorporating it into their Marvel Zombies line - I'm guessing that won't happen.)

Funnily enough, while I'm shifting away from agreeing with Cap, I'm finding him much more interesting. Where's the drama in a hero who never makes a mistake? If it weren't for my general disinterest in the Y chromosome, I'd be right on board with an ongoing title about Cap descending to the level of Punisher, and having to claw back his self-respect once he realises what he's done to himself.

[Jmacq1]

I was Anti-Reg to begin with, and remain Anti-Reg despite the fact that they've been pretty much completely ineffectual. Primarily because I don't believe it's very "responsible" or "accountable" to give -any- government (or agency like SHIELD...-especially- an agency like SHIELD) the amount of power that controlling the superhumans does. We're talking well beyond a nuclear arsenal here.

I have no problem with -some- superhumans working for the government, nor with training programs and the like. That far, it's a fine and dandy idea. But sometimes you also need those superheroes that can work outside the government, both to handle problems that might otherwise be too politically messy, and to serve as a check and balance for those very same governments that control a significant superhero population.

[yeoman]

Little of both. Firstly, it should be noted I'm frankly disgusted at how the fanboy community has reacted to this. Literally blowing EVERYTHING Tony says or does out of proportion and ignoring Cap's many faults.

In fact, in CW4 alone, people are concentrating on 'evil Tony and Reed' Well, let's see, in just this issue....

Tony seemed to care a lot more than Cap that GOLIATH WAS DEAD
Hank Pym- again, very affected by Goliath
Cap sees the thing as a freaking OPPURTUNITY to gain heroes
Tony REPEATEDLY pleads with Cap to just stand down.
The pro side were genuinely angered and sorrowful about what happened.
The pro-side REGRET the conseuqences of their actions. The anti-regs do things wrong and then TO HELL with the consequences.
One would think the anti-reggers would at least try to go to the funeral, even from a distance, even via camera or something!

But in general, overall, when looked at from a neutral perspective it seems to be this:

Pro-side have the RIGHT reason, the right justification and motive, but their actions are a little more questionable.
Cap has a totally WRONG reason, WRONG motives.... and his actions are flat-out radical.



Oh, no, Caps gone bonkers. He treated Bill Foster's death like advertising. That's just more OOCness on top of everything else.

But for Tony this is just one more check mark on his crimes against humanity list.

Not to mention he treats insane clone thor as just a bug to work out of the beta test.


Seriously, the fan community loves to skim the little details when it comes to Cap. Do I agree with using a Thor clone? Well, if it has ethics, I can understand why they did it- and they had no way of knowing it DIDN'T. DO I agree with super-villains? If they are being tagged, if there is NO CHANCE of escape.... well, it's extreme, but it has to be done. There's no other way of enforcing the law, and desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't agree with it, no. But nor do I agree with Cap's side.

Bullseye. Bullseye. The man kills people because he's bored. And good enough and creative enough that Stark might not even know he's doing it.

But Stark is putting him out on the street.

[CapFan]

I was Anti-Reg to begin with, and remain Anti-Reg despite the fact that they've been pretty much completely ineffectual. Primarily because I don't believe it's very "responsible" or "accountable" to give -any- government (or agency like SHIELD...-especially- an agency like SHIELD) the amount of power that controlling the superhumans does. We're talking well beyond a nuclear arsenal here.

I have no problem with -some- superhumans working for the government, nor with training programs and the like. That far, it's a fine and dandy idea. But sometimes you also need those superheroes that can work outside the government, both to handle problems that might otherwise be too politically messy, and to serve as a check and balance for those very same governments that control a significant superhero population.

...and also those who DON'T WANT TO BE SUPERHEROES AND/OR GOVERNMENT AGENT! :D Imagine having superpowers and keeping it a secret to live a normal life. You're on your way to becoming the CEO of your own company then someone rats on you! Well, say goodbye to your corporate job that requires nearly all day of your attention. You have a family? Too bad, you're with SHIELD now and there's alot to do. You wanna know why? Cause you have superpowers! We don't care if you got them by will or accident, YOU ARE OURS! :evilangry Hehehe.

[Jmacq1]

(If it were up to me, it'd be Tony Stark - I actually like Tony, but I can't think of anything that'd be a stronger finale than Captain America standing over Stark's dead body and realising what he's done. But as Marvel would no doubt like to keep selling Iron Man comics - without incorporating it into their Marvel Zombies line - I'm guessing that won't happen.)

Let's not forget they'd probably like to keep selling Captain America comics to those people that actually give a hoot about the character, his history, and his past characterization. But wouldn't want to deal with the hypocrisy of a man that can apparently be pushed to the point where he'll willingly kill another hero, but will still try to bring the Red Skull in alive?

Or maybe not, if my suspicions about where Marvel's headed with all this is true.

[Super Villains INC>]

Little of both. Firstly, it should be noted I'm frankly disgusted at how the fanboy community has reacted to this. Literally blowing EVERYTHING Tony says or does out of proportion and ignoring Cap's many faults.

In fact, in CW4 alone, people are concentrating on 'evil Tony and Reed' Well, let's see, in just this issue....

Tony seemed to care a lot more than Cap that GOLIATH WAS DEAD
Hank Pym- again, very affected by Goliath
Cap sees the thing as a freaking OPPURTUNITY to gain heroes


Tony REPEATEDLY pleads with Cap to just stand down.
The pro side were genuinely angered and sorrowful about what happened.
The pro-side REGRET the conseuqences of their actions. The anti-regs do things wrong and then TO HELL with the consequences.
One would think the anti-reggers would at least try to go to the funeral, even from a distance, even via camera or something!

But in general, overall, when looked at from a neutral perspective it seems to be this:

Pro-side have the RIGHT reason, the right justification and motive, but their actions are a little more questionable.



Cap has a totally WRONG reason, WRONG motives.... and his actions are flat-out radical.


Seriously, the fan community loves to skim the little details when it comes to Cap. Do I agree with using a Thor clone? Well, if it has ethics, I can understand why they did it- and they had no way of knowing it DIDN'T.

DO I agree with super-villains? If they are being tagged, if there is NO CHANCE of escape.... well, it's extreme, but it has to be done. There's no other way of enforcing the law, and desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't agree with it, no. But nor do I agree with Cap's side.

yeah, but c'mon...does Reed seem remotely sympathetic to you in this series?

well, they should be sorry---they helped pull the trigger on Goliaths death!! But, not sorry enough to stop their "plans"........(cue evil laughter) They are deciding things for everyone else, and they are not going to be swayed....doesn't that seem kind of odd to you, seeing as how thats what you say about Cap too?

what about Tony doing all this crap years ago with Thors hair for future cloning....how can you trust a guy like that now, when all through the years he has been stockpiling items/dna/info whatever to use against people in his future, "just in case"? maybe good intentions, but don't you think just a little bit of a megalomania/god complex showing itself. And Reed is not a hero in this series....sorry. He is a cold, alien type of scientist who can't be "distracted" form his "work"....that gets old real quick.


so, all Heroes before Stamford were all WRONG for all the WRONG motives, and were flat out radical........so Stamford erases/trumps ALL marvel history
and all the adventures/missions that went right and saved the earth over and over are still wrong? So the Registration act is completely right? No chance of, say, maybe using a clone of a GOD----as a WEAPON, in a FIGHT, before TESTING him out completely to make sure he isn't a psycho/loose cannon....hmmm, what if the great Tony/Reed team unleashed this clone on and he didn't obey them and ended up killing Goliath and 56 citizens who were in other buildings......isn't there that possibility? Nah, lets Trust Tony and Reed completely....... don't question!


again, see above.....shouldn't you know completely what a weapon does before you turn it loose? Even for your own safety? What if Clor took his own side down before they could stop it? They seemed pretty surprised as well...again, they are irrresponsible too, and not untouchable to criticism....after seeing how Tony set up the Titanium Man to fight during Peters testimony, then when Cap and his guys were supposed to be rescuing workers from a factory, which again was a Tony ambush, now Clor, isn't there enough against Tony to make you at least think not so highly about him? He is deceptive so far, but at least he's really, really, sorrry....LOL


I just hope HUlk comes back and Destroys Tony and Reed

[gorthon616]

In fact, in CW4 alone, people are concentrating on 'evil Tony and Reed' Well, let's see, in just this issue....

Tony seemed to care a lot more than Cap that GOLIATH WAS DEAD
Hank Pym- again, very affected by Goliath
Cap sees the thing as a freaking OPPURTUNITY to gain heroes
Tony REPEATEDLY pleads with Cap to just stand down.
The pro side were genuinely angered and sorrowful about what happened.
The pro-side REGRET the conseuqences of their actions. The anti-regs do things wrong and then TO HELL with the consequences.
One would think the anti-reggers would at least try to go to the funeral, even from a distance, even via camera or something!

But in general, overall, when looked at from a neutral perspective it seems to be this:

Pro-side have the RIGHT reason, the right justification and motive, but their actions are a little more questionable.
Cap has a totally WRONG reason, WRONG motives.... and his actions are flat-out radical.

Seriously, the fan community loves to skim the little details when it comes to Cap. Do I agree with using a Thor clone? Well, if it has ethics, I can understand why they did it- and they had no way of knowing it DIDN'T. DO I agree with super-villains? If they are being tagged, if there is NO CHANCE of escape.... well, it's extreme, but it has to be done. There's no other way of enforcing the law, and desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't agree with it, no. But nor do I agree with Cap's side.

It's not that I think people are ignoring Captain America's characterization. I think most people (who find Tony's actions to be irrational) to also find Captain America's characterization to be horrendous (I know that I do). However, Cap has only been belligerent, whereas Tony has taken "flat-out radical" actions. Beyond resisting registration, Cap has not really taken any radical action.

[Magneto Rocks]

yeah, but c'mon...does Reed seem remotely sympathetic to you in this series?

Yes, yes he does. He is a man who is overwrought with work and is excited about his new plans, but getting too carried away. Certainly he hasn'e been presented as anything remotely approaching 'evil' IMO.

well, they should be sorry---they helped pull the trigger on his death!! But, not sorry enough to stop their "plans"........(cue evil laughter) They are deciding things for everyone else, and they are not going to be swayed....doesn't that seem kind of odd to you, seeing as how thats what you say about Cap too?

No, not sorry enough to stop plans for the betterment of humanity. They are deciding things for everybody else? Hah- that's EXACTLY what Cap is doing.

what about Tony doing all this crap years ago with Thors hair for future cloning....how can you trust a guy like that now, when all through the years he has been stockpiling items/dna/info whatever to use against people in his future, "just in case"? maybe good intentions, but don't you think just a little bit of a megalomania/god complex showing itself. And Reed is not a hero in this series....sorry. He is a cold, alien type of scientist who can't be "distracted" form his "work"....that gets old real quick.

Um, I don't think he planned a clone from the moment he took the hair. I think he kept it because you never know- Hell, it could save their lives some day. And Reed is a hero- he's a scientist who gets far too carried away in his own work, but never loses sight of his goal for the betterment of humanity.

so, all Heroes before Stamford were all WRONG for all the WRONG motives, and were flat out radical........so Stamford erases/trumps ALL marvel history

Oh Hell no. But the situations are totally different- this time they are flat out defying the law and resorting to violence against lawful forces.

and all the adventures/missions that went right and saved the earth over and over are still wrong? So the Registration act is completely right? No chance of, say, maybe using a clone of a GOD----as a WEAPON, in a FIGHT, before TESTING him out completely to make sure he isn't a psycho/loose cannon....hmmm, what if the great Tony/Reed team unleashed this clone on and he didn't obey them and ended up killing Goliath and 56 citizens who were in other buildings......isn't there that possibility? Nah, lets Trust Tony and Reed completely....... don't question!

Do you believe for one second Clor wasn't tested? I love how, now that Yellowjacket is being portrayed as much deeper and more sympathetic, SUDDENLY it's the 'Tony/Reed' team instead of Tony/Reed/Hank. Fifty-six citizens? Wha? Don't know what you're talking about... And still, they are buoyed up by knowledge that they're averting the death of HUNDREDS, maybe THOUSANDS of others.

again, see above.....shouldn't you know completely what a weapon does before you turn it loose? Even for your own safety? What if Clor took his own side down before they could stop it? They seemed pretty surprised as well...again, they are irrresponsible too, and not untouchable to criticism....after seeing how Tony set up the Titanium Man to fight during Peters testimony, then when Cap and his guys were supposed to be rescuing workers from a factory, which again was a Tony ambush, now Clor, isn't there enough against Tony to make you at least think not so highly about him? He is deceptive so far, but at least he's really, really, sorrry....LOL

Nope, think a lot MORE highly of Tony than ever before. He's truly acting like a hero, doing what's necessary, what's RIGHT even though it is by far the hardest thing to do. Clor was obviously tested- just as obviously, not enough. But still, he was a contingency, a back-up, not to be done unless there was NO other solution. It's not like they would have used him come what may.

The Titanium Man fight was a deception, but it was again Tony doing what he thought was right, no-one was hurt by it, mentally or physically, and it did what, at the time, seemed like the right thing to do.

Certainly the ambush can't be counted- he dneeded to talk to Cap, it was the only way.

here's a question; is Brevoort the 'law' or not. Back during the great 'Did people die in CW2 thanks to Cap?' debate, many anti-reggers cited Brevoort's saying no one did as obvious fact. (Despite the fact that whether people died wasn't the issue, it was that Cap had no way of knowing that) Now, Brevoort says that Tony had EVERY intention to talk to Cap at Geffen Meyer. Despite the many anti-reggers arguing otherwise. Huh.


I just hope HUlk comes back and Destroys Tony and Reed

[Omega Alpha]

I was anti-reg for the start, because i don't trust the government to control super-heroes (and not only super-heroes, i should say), and it's inevitable that they will be used for it's own purposes. Plus, if everybody works for the government, stories will be boring.

But the SHRA can't really be defended in the way it was done; not only SHIELD, a corrupt agency run by the corrupt Maria Hill, which now has even aliens on payroll, so is getting too big and soon will be out of control, is responsable for handling all the superheroes, and make all of them their employees, which means that sooner or later they are going to be used for not very ethical purposes, and now they're getting way out of the line:

Negative Zone Prisons: Anti-ethical to say the least, if only the exposure to it can have serious health effects. It's worse than Guantanamo.

Clor: Not only clone anyone without it's authorization is completely unethical, the point of the SHRA was to register and train super-heroes so they don't do stupid things, and what do SHIELD does? Release the most powerful being on Earth completely untrained on super-heroes!

And finally:
To hunt heroes, whom do they use? BULLSEYE! VENOM! GREEN GOBLIN! LADY DEATHSTRIKE! They're really going to use some of the worse killers on the planet to take down the same people who fought them in the past, heroes whom just disagree with the government. I'm sorry, but there is no defense for this.

[Markavian]

Wait, so which do you want? As it is now the Fed is in control of the heroes but many are lent out to SHIELD (or SHIELD backdoor drafts some), and only like half on the list are working for SHIELD and seem to be actively doing anything, the GLA seems to have moved back home and are doign their thing (or training?)

Anyway pro-reg since I heard about the concept, still that today. It just makes sense! Anyway unlike Cap the pro-sides "questionable details" can be overturned by the Supreme Court....SHEILD isnt a Federal Department.The Idea of an UN Agency enfocing US law makes little sense.Under the Consitution The Police and Perhaps Federal Law Enforcement are supposed to enforce the Law.If things get Hairy as in The Hulk or whatever the NSA or if Martial law is declared the Army or Marines etc can be utilized.The idea that SHEILD can draft US Citizens strikes me as wrong period. THey can Volunter or be under contract sure but for US Citizens to be DRAFTED to an international organization is a violation of both US soverntry and Said Citizens rights. Not to say the US couldnt or shouldnt help the UN or SHEILD or Vice versa just that the UN having a toe hold on US soil with a Para Military Force is a bit too much. SHEILD has changed from when it was first created in the 1960's. in the 1990's it became a UN outfit in Total though the US still supplies its equipment and resourses. I think American Heroes should be accountible to the US Goverment not to SHEILD. I know that the SHRA is being run out of Avengers tower and Technicly Tony Stark is in Charge but there is still massive SHEILD involvement and support.It should be 100% American period.

[the Dagman]

I think that registration in and of itself is okay, within limits. Like driving a car, if you wear a mask and fight crime you should be registered with someone. Not SHIELD, that is a UN organisation. More like some variant of Homeland Security. Like driving a car, some people will do it without registering/without a license. They will get in trouble if they are ever caught. But if they "stay in their lane" and do not attract undo attention to themselves they can probably get away with it for some time. But the general public and even local police forces should not have access to the superhero database, secret identities should be confidential and you should be able to opt out and retire should you choose to do so.

With that said, the SHRA as it currently stands I am against. It tramples too many personal liberties. It forces people who are American citizens to be enslaved for all intents and purposes to SHIELD. If you do not comply with what SHIELD tells you, they can ship you off to their Negative Zone gulag if they want to.

But people who have powers, who do not publicly use them or wear a mask and fight crime should not be compelled to register. Like the car/driving analogy I used earlier, it is legal to own a car and not register it as long as you do not operate it and keep it on your own property. You do need to file for non-op status if it had been used to drive around normally at one time, or in this case if you are a hero who has hung up the cape and mask. If you have built a car from scratch and never used it in the street though, the car does not exist as far as the DMV is concerned and you never have to register it as long as it remains non-op on your property. Or in the case of the SHRA, if you get powers and never use them for heroing and never had before then you need not register.

[Markavian]

It's not that I think people are ignoring Captain America's characterization. I think most people (who find Tony's actions to be irrational) to also find Captain America's characterization to be horrendous (I know that I do). However, Cap has only been belligerent, whereas Tony has taken "flat-out radical" actions. Beyond resisting registration, Cap has not really taken any radical action.
Throwing a Guard out of a Moving Paddy Wagon and causing a Massive Pile up and kiddnapping Minors in Government Custody and enticing them to sedition against a lawfully and freely elected government because he disagrees with a law that was passed isnt Radical then what is?:eek: :rolleyes: :(

[Super Villains INC>]

[QUOTE=Magneto Rocks]Yes, yes he does. He is a man who is overwrought with work and is excited about his new plans, but getting too carried away. Certainly he hasn'e been presented as anything remotely approaching 'evil' IMO.

No, not sorry enough to stop plans for the betterment of humanity. They are deciding things for everybody else? Hah- that's EXACTLY what Cap is doing.


Um, I don't think he planned a clone from the moment he took the hair. I think he kept it because you never know- Hell, it could save their lives some day. And Reed is a hero- he's a scientist who gets far too carried away in his own work, but never loses sight of his goal for the betterment of humanity.



Oh Hell no. But the situations are totally different- this time they are flat out defying the law and resorting to violence against lawful forces.


Do you believe for one second Clor wasn't tested? I love how, now that Yellowjacket is being portrayed as much deeper and more sympathetic, SUDDENLY it's the 'Tony/Reed' team instead of Tony/Reed/Hank. Fifty-six citizens? Wha? Don't know what you're talking about... And still, they are buoyed up by knowledge that they're averting the death of HUNDREDS, maybe THOUSANDS of others.





Nope, think a lot MORE highly of Tony than ever before. He's truly acting like a hero, doing what's necessary, what's RIGHT even though it is by far the hardest thing to do. Clor was obviously tested- just as obviously, not enough. But still, he was a contingency, a back-up, not to be done unless there was NO other solution. It's not like they would have used him come what may.




they weren't the ones who are being deceptive...they are rspnding to the call of workers who need help----end of story. You know, Being Heroes. Iron Man is the one who keeps deceiving/ambushing....


I asked "sympathetic" not evil. Can't you apply that reasoning (overworught with work, excited about plans, carried away) to Dr. Doom?

betterment of humanity? proven how so? how do you know what the future holds for this law 10 years down the road? What about Heroes used to start taking over countries for business interests? You're writing a rosy colored version before you know all the info. As far as Cap, hasn't he been doing good things all this time without being registered?

again, the "betterment for humanity" quote---and again, can't you apply that To Dr. Doom and Magneto?

they weren't the ones who are being deceptive...they are rspnding to the call of workers who need help----end of story. You know, Being Heroes. Iron Man is the one who keeps deceiving/ambushing....

obviously not tested well enough. Ask Goliath. And, I'll insert Pym back into the mix, no problem....Reed/Tony/Hank....LOL. The 56 citizens was just pulled out the air, to illustrate any number of people that could have been killed by Clor accidently.....again, they didn't test him well enough, so anything could have happened.

so all the deception/ambushing i bring up is always ok to you. Ok, on that we will not agree.

he is still pushing events to make them go artificially his way.....its wrong.

anyways, thanks for the spirited debate....no worries.

[Gregg Helmberger]

Yes, yes he does. He is a man who is overwrought with work and is excited about his new plans, but getting too carried away. Certainly he hasn'e been presented as anything remotely approaching 'evil' IMO.



No, not sorry enough to stop plans for the betterment of humanity. They are deciding things for everybody else? Hah- that's EXACTLY what Cap is doing.



Um, I don't think he planned a clone from the moment he took the hair. I think he kept it because you never know- Hell, it could save their lives some day. And Reed is a hero- he's a scientist who gets far too carried away in his own work, but never loses sight of his goal for the betterment of humanity.



Oh Hell no. But the situations are totally different- this time they are flat out defying the law and resorting to violence against lawful forces.



Do you believe for one second Clor wasn't tested? I love how, now that Yellowjacket is being portrayed as much deeper and more sympathetic, SUDDENLY it's the 'Tony/Reed' team instead of Tony/Reed/Hank. Fifty-six citizens? Wha? Don't know what you're talking about... And still, they are buoyed up by knowledge that they're averting the death of HUNDREDS, maybe THOUSANDS of others.



Nope, think a lot MORE highly of Tony than ever before. He's truly acting like a hero, doing what's necessary, what's RIGHT even though it is by far the hardest thing to do. Clor was obviously tested- just as obviously, not enough. But still, he was a contingency, a back-up, not to be done unless there was NO other solution. It's not like they would have used him come what may.

The Titanium Man fight was a deception, but it was again Tony doing what he thought was right, no-one was hurt by it, mentally or physically, and it did what, at the time, seemed like the right thing to do.

Certainly the ambush can't be counted- he dneeded to talk to Cap, it was the only way.

here's a question; is Brevoort the 'law' or not. Back during the great 'Did people die in CW2 thanks to Cap?' debate, many anti-reggers cited Brevoort's saying no one did as obvious fact. (Despite the fact that whether people died wasn't the issue, it was that Cap had no way of knowing that) Now, Brevoort says that Tony had EVERY intention to talk to Cap at Geffen Meyer. Despite the many anti-reggers arguing otherwise. Huh.

I guess this is just a situation where two people look at the same color and one sees black and one sees white. There's no reasoning through a situation like that, because the baseline perceptions are just so alien from one another than there is no common ground even to begin. So, you're welcome to your opinions and I'll have mine and I'll take what you say with a grain of salt in the hopes that you provide me the same courtesy.

What it's starting to boil down to for me is that I really, really, really dislike Millar, I think he hates every character who's ever appeared in a comic book, and I think he's trying to destroy everything that's come before him to substitute his own loathsome paradigm. As I've said elsewhere, The Authority could not have been written by a person who actually likes comic book superheroes; the level of scorn and rage against every idiom was inescapable and, for me, sickening. Unfortunately, now he's poisoning Marvel the same way. It makes me very, very sad.

[Zombienorthstar]

That sucks! The clone has to go (by the hand of the real Thor if possible). If the clone is the star of the new Thor series coming in 07, then I guess I won't be buying it either.


Thats actually a pretty cool idea...Just have Thor turn up and totally rip the clone in half 'I say thee nay!'

[Magneto Rocks]

I asked "sympathetic" not evil. Can't you apply that reasoning (overworught with work, excited about plans, carried away) to Dr. Doom?

Nope, not really. Because then you'd need to add that Doom is a dictaitor, a megalomaniac who killed his old girlfriend for power and seeks nothing less than total domination. Reed is a caring and devoted father and husband, if easily distracted. Doom does not get carried away- Doom knows exactly what he's looking for.


betterment of humanity? proven how so? how do you know what the future holds for this law 10 years down the road? What about Heroes used to start taking over countries for business interests? You're writing a rosy colored version before you know all the info. As far as Cap, hasn't he been doing good things all this time without being registered?

Cap's been doing good things without being registered, undoubtedly. So why can't he keep doing them WHILE registered?

And as for the betterment of humanity- I have full faith in Tony Stark and the pro-reggers. They are still heroes, and their grand plan will result in a better world.


again, the "betterment for humanity" quote---and again, can't you apply that To Dr. Doom and Magneto?

Well.... no.
Doom wants what is best for Doom. There are two people in Doom's world; second class and higher class. Second class apoplies to everyone who is:

A) Not Latverian, and
B)Not named Victor Von Doom

and Magneto -HAH! Magneto certainly doesn't want the betterment of HUMANITY!


they weren't the ones who are being deceptive...they are rspnding to the call of workers who need help----end of story. You know, Being Heroes. Iron Man is the one who keeps deceiving/ambushing....

Oh please- where were they when the Doombot attacked New York?


obviously not tested well enough. Ask Goliath. And, I'll insert Pym back into the mix, no problem....Reed/Tony/Hank....LOL. The 56 citizens was just pulled out the air, to illustrate any number of people that could have been killed by Clor accidently.....again, they didn't test him well enough, so anything could have happened.

There was NO reason to suspect Clor would go bad, none. He was a clone of a hero- who knew he would turn out to be homicidal?


so all the deception/ambushing i bring up is always ok to you. Ok, on that we will not agree.

It can generally be justified.


he is still pushing events to make them go artificially his way.....its wrong.

Oh that's simply ridiculous! He illustrated right there one of the problems with registration. Which, IMo, is VASTLY outwighed by the good points.

anyways, thanks for the spirited debate....no worries.

Thank you for the same.

What it's starting to boil down to for me is that I really, really, really dislike Millar, I think he hates every character who's ever appeared in a comic book, and I think he's trying to destroy everything that's come before him to substitute his own loathsome paradigm. As I've said elsewhere, The Authority could not have been written by a person who actually likes comic book superheroes; the level of scorn and rage against every idiom was inescapable and, for me, sickening. Unfortunately, now he's poisoning Marvel the same way. It makes me very, very sad

Ah, see this could be the thing we disagree on the most. I really, really, really like Millar, considering him possibly the best active comics writer today. I mean, he has written (IMo of course) the best runs EVER on Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate FF and Wolverine, plus the fantastic Ultimates, my favourite Spider-Man run in a long time, and more.

Guess it all boils down to that.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Let's not forget they'd probably like to keep selling Captain America comics to those people that actually give a hoot about the character, his history, and his past characterization. But wouldn't want to deal with the hypocrisy of a man that can apparently be pushed to the point where he'll willingly kill another hero, but will still try to bring the Red Skull in alive?
I don't see a contradiction in that at all. It's not about who he's fighting, it's about why he's fighting. And no matter how much Red Skull gets under Cap's skin, he'll always be the villain - he can't hurt Cap like a friend could. We are hurt the most by those we love, and aside, perhaps, from some very regrettable fanfic that's no doubt out there somewhere, I doubt Cap loves Red Skull.

I don't think it'd be out of character for Cap. Comics are fluid of course, and under one writer a characer'll behave differently compared to another writer's tenure, but I think there's a general basis for Cap to be very, very hurt by what's going on, to the point where he would lash out in a way he never would against a straight-up villain.

This is a man who, as Spider-Man noted, wears the flag as his freakin' costume. As an unknown weakling he was willing to risk his life for the chance to defend his country - to discard everything he was, and be reborn as a soldier. Most people would be damn glad that there's someone else willing to stand on the wall and keep the barbarians out - Cap's dream is to be the guy on the wall. He's a patriot in the finest sense, an individual who believes with all his heart that his nation's wellbeing is more important than his own. That his nation is not just his home, or desirable, but great, and deserving of the ultimate sacrifice on his part.

And here he is in an age when presidents on both sides lie as a matter of course. When Big Brother the TV show gets more attention than the spectre of 'big brother' the concept. When people get more irate about seeing Janet Jackson's boob than they do about thousands of their sons and daughters being sent overseas to die for the vanity of their leaders and the share portfolios of their CEOs. And now when people he called his friends are willing to give up what he considers great about his country, to surrender everything he fought for, and not only ask him to agree to it, but outlaw him for saying no, hunt him like a criminal, and murder his colleague. He loves his country more than life itself, and his country has betrayed him. Now does anything I have described not sound like Wanda Maxi- I mean, Captain America?

[Jmacq1]

Throwing a Guard out of a Moving Paddy Wagon and causing a Massive Pile up and kiddnapping Minors in Government Custody and enticing them to sedition against a lawfully and freely elected government because he disagrees with a law that was passed isnt Radical then what is?:eek: :rolleyes: :(

Cloning one of your best friends to be your personal living WMD against a group of people you already vastly overpower?

Shipping people to a dimension that can be intrinsically harmful to your health and/or sanity?

I'm sorry, but the Nazis thought the Holocaust was for the "betterment of humanity" (their own twisted version of it) too. Now Tony and Company's actions aren't anywhere near that level, but the point is just because you're doing wrong things for the right reasons doesn't make it right. The ends do -not- always justify the means. Has Tony asked the -people- of the United States if they want the "50 States Initiative?" Has he asked them if they want psycopaths running around on a supposedly-short "leash" -protecting- them? No, he hasn't, since the "50 States Initiative" is classified. Tony is basically imposing -his- vision just as much as Cap is trying to hold on to his. In that regard, neither is any better than the other. It's just that one party (Tony) has managed to convince the people in power that his way will work in accordance with the SHRA.

Now I despise the way Cap's been portrayed in this series thus far. But I'm not Anti-Reg because of Cap (despite the fact that when he's portrayed normally he's my favorite Marvel character). I'm Anti-Reg for the reasons I listed above. As someone else said, Cap's been a thug, but he hasn't been crossing the ethical lines that Tony and Company seem to march over more of every single issue.

Registration was a good idea on paper, but the overzealousness of those enforcing it has been vastly out of proportion, even more vastly out of character, and this whole crossover is asking us to swallow that after 40 years' worth of stories where they save lives, the world, and the universe, that suddenly superheroes are the greatest threat humanity's ever faced by virtue of their very existence. Just forget about all those villains, they never did anything -that- bad or were behind any deaths, right?

And that, my friend, is BS to me.

[Jmacq1]

I don't see a contradiction in that at all. It's not about who he's fighting, it's about why he's fighting. And no matter how much Red Skull gets under Cap's skin, he'll always be the villain - he can't hurt Cap like a friend could. We are hurt the most by those we love, and aside, perhaps, from some very regrettable fanfic that's no doubt out there somewhere, I doubt Cap loves Red Skull.

I don't think it'd be out of character for Cap. Comics are fluid of course, and under one writer a characer'll behave differently compared to another writer's tenure, but I think there's a general basis for Cap to be very, very hurt by what's going on, to the point where he would lash out in a way he never would against a straight-up villain.

This is a man who, as Spider-Man noted, wears the flag as his freakin' costume. As an unknown weakling he was willing to risk his life for the chance to defend his country - to discard everything he was, and be reborn as a soldier. Most people would be damn glad that there's someone else willing to stand on the wall and keep the barbarians out - Cap's dream is to be the guy on the wall. He's a patriot in the finest sense, an individual who believes with all his heart that his nation's wellbeing is more important than his own. That his nation is not just his home, or desirable, but great, and deserving of the ultimate sacrifice on his part.

And here he is in an age when presidents on both sides lie as a matter of course. When Big Brother the TV show gets more attention than the spectre of 'big brother' the concept. When people get more irate about seeing Janet Jackson's boob than they do about thousands of their sons and daughters being sent overseas to die for the vanity of their leaders and the share portfolios of their CEOs. And now when people he called his friends are willing to give up what he considers great about his country, to surrender everything he fought for, and not only ask him to agree to it, but outlaw him for saying no, hunt him like a criminal, and murder his colleague. He loves his country more than life itself, and his country has betrayed him. Now does anything I have described not sound like Wanda Maxi- I mean, Captain America?

Yeah, and we all see how successfully Wanda's been used since her breakdown. I'm sure her fans are thrilling to all these stories they've had about her.

Oh wait....

Sorry, I don't care to see my favorite character turned into plot-fodder and basically forever tainted with being no better than most of the villains he fights. If not -worse-. There's a pretty good segment of readership that feels Wanda can -never- be redeemed now, I don't care to see the same thing happen to Captain America. Nor do I suspect would anyone want such a thing to happen to their favorite character, whoever they may be. (And contrary to what some Anti-Reg people think I still maintain Tony and Reed and Company are not "forever ruined" by this crossover...yet).

Also it'd -really- suck if my favorite character killed my second favorite. *cough* ;)

Nevermind that it's still grand hypocrisy that you'll kill a good man that was your friend, but not reserve the same fate for mass-murderers and the like.

Basically, if Cap crosses that line (against a Pro-Reg hero, that is) he'll be forever ruined. He won't be any Captain America I've ever read about, or care to read about. Just the same way Thor would have been ruined if it'd been the "real" Thor in CW #4. No one that willfully kills a good man and then makes sure the truly evil "survive to face trial" has any business calling himself any kind of "hero". And amazingly enough, I prefer to read comics with superheroes in them. Not morally ambiguous political allegories. Which is of course one of the fundamental divides in readership along Pro-Reg and Anti-Reg lines: Those who prefer morality over legality, and those who prefer things the other way around, or believe the two are indistinguishable.

But then again, your comparison would certainly be somewhat in keeping with the suspicions I mentioned above (and have elaborated in other posts on these forums).

[Super Villains INC>]

Ah, see this could be the thing we disagree on the most. I really, really, really like Millar, considering him possibly the best active comics writer today. I mean, he has written (IMo of course) the best runs EVER on Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate FF and Wolverine, plus the fantastic Ultimates, my favourite Spider-Man run in a long time, and more.

Guess it all boils down to that.


thats not my quote...sorry! But, thanks for attributing more arguments to me, LOL

[gorthon616]

Throwing a Guard out of a Moving Paddy Wagon and causing a Massive Pile up and kiddnapping Minors in Government Custody and enticing them to sedition against a lawfully and freely elected government because he disagrees with a law that was passed isnt Radical then what is?:eek: :rolleyes: :(

"Kidnapping Minors in Government Custody"? Don't act like Cap kidnapped a bunch of infants from their mother's arms. It is not really unreasonable that, if thought to be imprisoned wrongly, that a hero would go against the grain of the law and free them. These were people he believed were wrongfully imprisioned and assaulted (and lets not forget that one of them was chased across a building tops by a helicopter and the blown up along with an entire floor of a building). Unreasonable? Perhaps, but considering the situation I can't refer to that as "radical."

[Tazirai]

This is like Democrats versus Republicans..

In a marvel Game Some friends and I play, My character is Registered.. but WAAAYYY before civil war started.. She's a private detective/superhero, and as such needs a licence, she offered her services to the local authorities, and they wanted to know who she was and what she could do. She obliged, only a few officers know her real identity, but she carries ID for when police arrive at a crime scene.
This type of registration i'm all for, The way it is implemented in Civil War i'm against it. I do know that if Cap was Pro and it was implemented fairly and NOT under SHIELD. I'd probably go for it. I'm an ex-soldier and trained martial artist, BOTH required me to be trained and be registered to use a firearm or lethal weapon. You get weapon certificates when you complete a martial weapon.
I'm all for training Superheroes, like the X-men do.

BUT not the way IM is doing it.
A good way to do it ..
1:Conceive the SHRA..
2:Give heroes advanced knowledge of what it entails.
3:Create a sort of academy where heroes can be trained.
4:Have all heroes who wish to fight crimes Register.
5: LEAVE SHIELD OUT OF IT.
6: Offer certificates and licenses after they complete a training course.
7: Heroes with more than 5 years pre-registration history are exempt from training but require licensing.
8: Heroes can now make legal arrests.
9: Enforce the non-compliance with capture only to resolve said situation in court, and a public ban on said heroes ability to fight a crime.
10:If said non-registered hero is caught in violation penalties can/may include arrest.

This to me sounds like a great idea.
this is the moderate view, I'm a moderate in real life, since both sides of the extremes tend to lose sight of the bigger picture.

[bulbasteve]

SHEILD isnt a Federal Department.The Idea of an UN Agency enfocing US law makes little sense.Under the Consitution The Police and Perhaps Federal Law Enforcement are supposed to enforce the Law.If things get Hairy as in The Hulk or whatever the NSA or if Martial law is declared the Army or Marines etc can be utilized.The idea that SHEILD can draft US Citizens strikes me as wrong period. THey can Volunter or be under contract sure but for US Citizens to be DRAFTED to an international organization is a violation of both US soverntry and Said Citizens rights. Not to say the US couldnt or shouldnt help the UN or SHEILD or Vice versa just that the UN having a toe hold on US soil with a Para Military Force is a bit too much. SHEILD has changed from when it was first created in the 1960's. in the 1990's it became a UN outfit in Total though the US still supplies its equipment and resourses. I think American Heroes should be accountible to the US Goverment not to SHEILD. I know that the SHRA is being run out of Avengers tower and Technicly Tony Stark is in Charge but there is still massive SHEILD involvement and support.It should be 100% American period.

Unfortunately they HAVE to be enforcing these laws for now. O*N*E is too busy with the 198 (plus that would be bad PR), I don't even know what the Guardsman are doing...maybe at the new prison and they are weak anyway, The U.S. Military would give even more impressions this is a 'draft' and they will be fighting in Iraq soon enough, and the Thunderbolts would have been the worst PR possible. So all that is really left is having SHIELD help out with this.

SHIELD can't legally draft anyone. Like Tom has said it's not a draft, at most it can only be a backdoor draft. And seeing as how that isn't written anywhere in the law, if one of the heroes want to whistleblow than you will have Hill being visited by a few Sentinels to get her to change her plans.

But I do think to a certain extent Tony (and even the government) is simply trying to set up a balance of power. If it was just the government and the heroes there may be more of an issue of abuse of the governments power, but the government has SHIELD hanging over their head (literally and figuratively). Along the same lines now SHIELD has a check to their own corruption by a more powerful U.S. government, and heroes who would act as moles inside their own orgnization.

As well according to CWF the government will be running the 50 state initiative, for all we know they may leave SHIELD blowing in the wind once Cap and them go down.

[trickster]

Little of both. Firstly, it should be noted I'm frankly disgusted at how the fanboy community has reacted to this. Literally blowing EVERYTHING Tony says or does out of proportion and ignoring Cap's many faults.

In fact, in CW4 alone, people are concentrating on 'evil Tony and Reed' Well, let's see, in just this issue....

Tony seemed to care a lot more than Cap that GOLIATH WAS DEAD
Hank Pym- again, very affected by Goliath
Cap sees the thing as a freaking OPPURTUNITY to gain heroes
Tony REPEATEDLY pleads with Cap to just stand down.
The pro side were genuinely angered and sorrowful about what happened.
The pro-side REGRET the conseuqences of their actions. The anti-regs do things wrong and then TO HELL with the consequences.
One would think the anti-reggers would at least try to go to the funeral, even from a distance, even via camera or something!

But in general, overall, when looked at from a neutral perspective it seems to be this:

Pro-side have the RIGHT reason, the right justification and motive, but their actions are a little more questionable.
Cap has a totally WRONG reason, WRONG motives.... and his actions are flat-out radical.

Seriously, the fan community loves to skim the little details when it comes to Cap. Do I agree with using a Thor clone? Well, if it has ethics, I can understand why they did it- and they had no way of knowing it DIDN'T. DO I agree with super-villains? If they are being tagged, if there is NO CHANCE of escape.... well, it's extreme, but it has to be done. There's no other way of enforcing the law, and desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't agree with it, no. But nor do I agree with Cap's side.



The pro-side REGRET the conseuqences of their actions


Hey, maybe if they hadn't let out a whackjob Thor clone they didn't even know was crazy (or they probably did, cos its mental problems would most likely come out during training as they were glaringly obvious) who killed a guy whose fault was refusing to be a government stooge, things wouldn't have gone off the deep end?

Tony doesn't seem too affected by all of it. He's a rich former arms dealer. Especially now that his ego has been boosted by that Mrs. What's Her Name who after spitting on him, now licks his boots (how's that for out of character?), he's gonna feel justified in doing even worse shit. Besides, I don't know what a similar saying goes like in English, but he's being more Catholic than the Pope. He's everything I hate in a man: crooked, the kind of guy who offers bribes, finds out information in advance using his connections (he knew about the registration act months before), and will even use set ups (Titanium Man). He'll roll over if its fits him, and side with the faction in power, to keep himself on top. The reason he was so eager to come out in support of the Bill was so he wouldn't get his assets seized, like we know would happen to any anti-reg "criminal", not because of his sense of justice. The world just doesn't work like that.

No, not sorry enough to stop plans for the betterment of humanity. They are deciding things for everybody else? Hah- that's EXACTLY what Cap is doing.

How is that?

[bulbasteve]

I don't see a contradiction in that at all. It's not about who he's fighting, it's about why he's fighting. And no matter how much Red Skull gets under Cap's skin, he'll always be the villain - he can't hurt Cap like a friend could. We are hurt the most by those we love, and aside, perhaps, from some very regrettable fanfic that's no doubt out there somewhere, I doubt Cap loves Red Skull.

Oh he can when he reveals Cap is a Nazi supersoldier! Oh man WHY ISNT IT IN CONTINUITY!!?!

Tony can't do much to get under Cap's skin I don't think....

[Gregg Helmberger]

Unlike Cap the pro-sides "questionable details" can be overturned by the Supreme Court. Personally I think clones are probably a bad idea, or even the really evil Thunderbolts team. But that is no reason to just throw out the entire act. Anything that needs to be fixed can be fixed within the legislative or judicial process.

How will the government fix the people driven insane by the Negative Zone? How will the government give Peter Parker his secret identity back -- or raise Mary Jane or Aunt May from the dead if the worst happens to one of them (I suppose Dr. Frankenrichards could clone them). Some things the act requires up front simply can't ever be made right again by any means at humanity's disposal.

[Thursaiz]

I'm still against it. Seems evil to me. Too much like Nazi Germany...or Bush-era America.

[Alpow]

I was neutral with a bias towards the anti, now I am staunchly Anti and feel various levels of disgust for the supposed heroes on the Pro side.

How any of them could have gone along with the Thor clone idea is beyond me, they all should have walked out once it was revealed what was going on.


On the subject of Captain America, I can't really see much wrong with his actions and his attitude is only a little uptight which is perfectly understandable.

Of course Cap's character isn’t important to anti argument, the anti side isn't fighting to make Cap king of the world.

The pro side however has as its central selling point the idea that the authorities can be trusted especially in the form of Stark (how many times have I heard that Stark had to do it because otherwise somebody worse would have come along) so every time Stark causes the death of people, every time he dishonours the memory of his dead friend, every time he imprisons people in a grossly unethical manner, every time he makes a mockery of humanity by creating brain washed pseudo-human creatures, every time he forces people into bondage because they were born different, each and every time he does these things and more it underlines why SHRA is a bad idea - Tony Stark cannot be trusted to wield this power and he must be stopped before disaster befalls America and likely the world.

Stark has already proven he will cross any line to impose his vision on the world, do we really want such a man to have a clone army with no free will of their own and answering only to him - there has never been such a threat to human liberty.

[Gregg Helmberger]

Ah, see this could be the thing we disagree on the most. I really, really, really like Millar, considering him possibly the best active comics writer today. I mean, he has written (IMo of course) the best runs EVER on Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate FF and Wolverine, plus the fantastic Ultimates, my favourite Spider-Man run in a long time, and more.

Guess it all boils down to that.

I guess that's probably a big part of it. I just can't see any evidence of Millar actually liking superheroes. Yes, I know he claims to "love" Cap and "love" Iron Man, but in actual fact his heroes pretty much end up worse than the villains they're fighting. I don't want to have to start cheering for Dr. Doom to kill the characters I've rooted for for so long. In fact, I'd much rather stop reading comics entirely and leave the madhouse to the inmates like Millar if that were to become the case.

[Zel]

I'm pro-reg in theory. In real life vigilantes and other people that take the law into their own hands tend not be noble souls like Cap and Spidey, but creeps like the KKK.

However, Tony, Reed and the pro-reg side have been committing outright evil actions.
First off, the clone Thor. They create a clone without the permission of the original or anyone who might have legal standing to decide such a thing since Thor is gone.
Second, the clone is a slave. He has mental commands implanted that can turn him off. Did clone Thor ever have a choice to be anything but a pro-reg thug?
Same goes with the fifty states initiative and the other clones coming down the pike. A new race of slaves designed to fight for a ruling elite.
They're also doing the same to super villains. They might be prisoners, but they still have basic human rights under our system. that'd include the freedom from mind control.

Seriously, these are the kind of plans that someone like the Leader or Doctor Doom would come up with.

[bulbasteve]

How will the government fix the people driven insane by the Negative Zone? How will the government give Peter Parker his secret identity back -- or raise Mary Jane or Aunt May from the dead if the worst happens to one of them (I suppose Dr. Frankenrichards could clone them). Some things the act requires up front simply can't ever be made right again by any means at humanity's disposal.

You don't know if anyone was driven insane yet. Let's not assume till we see it. This is Reed, he could probably make crazy-proof cells.

And Parker made his decision, that is all on him, it wasn't required by law.

[Alpow]

And Parker made his decision, that is all on him, it wasn't required by law.

No but Stark manipulating him into it doesn't speak highly of how Stark treats the people he professes to be his friends, of course we don’t need anymore evidence on that front after Clor.

[Gregg Helmberger]

You don't know if anyone was driven insane yet. Let's not assume till we see it. This is Reed, he could probably make crazy-proof cells.

Untrue. I forget who it was, but in one of the last two issues of Frontline we saw someone drop to the ground and start foaming at the mouth because of being sent to the Negative Zone. I'm fairly sure you don't do that if you're A-OK.

And Parker made his decision, that is all on him, it wasn't required by law.

Actually I'd say it was largely on Tony, who pressured him into doing it. Regardless, you need to divulge your identity to SHIELD and the government and God knows who else -- and what have those entities ever done that would indicate that the information would be kept safe? A person could reasonbly conclude that his private information would definitely reach his enemies in a very short period of time, and thus his loved ones come under attack.

[kalorama]

No but Stark manipulating him into it doesn't speak highly of how Stark treats the people he professes to be his friends, of course we don’t need anymore evidence on that front after Clor.

That's my biggest gripe with the whole CW thing so far: The ease with which Stark manipulated Peter and got him to roll over like a love-starved puppy resulted in someone who's long been known for his strength of character and perserverance in the face of adversity being portrayed as a dull sap who desperately needs a father figure to validate him and make the hard choices for him.

[Morw]

I was pro. now Im " let it all be a dream"

The idea of registration is very good, the idea of proper trainning is very good, the execution of the idea is not worth wiping your xxx with.

[Magneto Rocks]

I guess that's probably a big part of it. I just can't see any evidence of Millar actually liking superheroes. Yes, I know he claims to "love" Cap and "love" Iron Man, but in actual fact his heroes pretty much end up worse than the villains they're fighting. I don't want to have to start cheering for Dr. Doom to kill the characters I've rooted for for so long. In fact, I'd much rather stop reading comics entirely and leave the madhouse to the inmates like Millar if that were to become the case.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Personally, I think it is very evident what characters Millar likes above all others. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he only DISlikes Giant people :p No, but seriously- I always root for Dr Doom. Dr Doom rocks. No hero is better than Doom, and Doom deserves his triumphal ascension. I feel like this when I read the Lee stories- does this make Lee a bad writer?

[Gregg Helmberger]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Personally, I think it is very evident what characters Millar likes above all others. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he only DISlikes Giant people :p No, but seriously- I always root for Dr Doom. Dr Doom rocks. No hero is better than Doom, and Doom deserves his triumphal ascension. I feel like this when I read the Lee stories- does this make Lee a bad writer?

No, but it makes you someone who's missed the point of Lee's stories. :)

[bulbasteve]

Untrue. I forget who it was, but in one of the last two issues of Frontline we saw someone drop to the ground and start foaming at the mouth because of being sent to the Negative Zone. I'm fairly sure you don't do that if you're A-OK.

Yeah and I'm sure some people got seasick on the raft or get claustrophobia in prison, but that comes with the turf. And remember this guy was not in his cell yet or went through any screening. For all anyone knows there are anti-insane cells.

Actually I'd say it was largely on Tony, who pressured him into doing it. Regardless, you need to divulge your identity to SHIELD and the government and God knows who else -- and what have those entities ever done that would indicate that the information would be kept safe? A person could reasonbly conclude that his private information would definitely reach his enemies in a very short period of time, and thus his loved ones come under attack.

Tony, Aunt May and MJ you mean. Anyway SHIELD already had his indentity for years and it never got out. And as She-Hulk has stated in her book only top SHIELD officials have access to the names. They aren't putting them on government laptops, even Millar isn't crazy enough to use THAT analogy to real world events.

[Gregg Helmberger]

Yeah and I'm sure some people got seasick on the raft or get claustrophobia in prison, but that comes with the turf. And remember this guy was not in his cell yet or went through any screening. For all anyone knows there are anti-insane cells.

And for all anyone knows, there aren't. You can't base an argument on what you think is a good idea. We saw a man being driven insane by his mere presence in the Negative Zone. It happened. To compare it to seasickness(!) is completely absurd and I think you know it. As well compare evil murdering thunder monster's blowing a hole through Goliath to Goliath getting mild indigestion.



Tony, Aunt May and MJ you mean. Anyway SHIELD already had his indentity for years and it never got out. And as She-Hulk has stated in her book only top SHIELD officials have access to the names. They aren't putting them on government laptops, even Millar isn't crazy enough to use THAT analogy to real world events.

Rememeber, this is the same SHIELD that is completely corrupt and insane and tried to murder the New Avengers not long ago. I just want to be sure we're talking about the same organization so we can assess their trustworthiness.

[bulbasteve]

And for all anyone knows, there aren't. You can't base an argument on what you think is a good idea. We saw a man being driven insane by his mere presence in the Negative Zone. It happened. To compare it to seasickness(!) is completely absurd and I think you know it. As well compare evil murdering thunder monster's blowing a hole through Goliath to Goliath getting mild indigestion.

You can base an argument on what is logical. You had one panel where you saw one person foaming at the mouth. Gee, why not just assume he will be left there to die because we didn't see him be carried away? For all we know his cell could be insano-proof, there are medical facuilities to help with the crazies, they would tranfser him to the big house or another non-crazy-making prison (which also helps conviently letting villains escape in true comic fashion) and any number of other things that make more sense than "they are going to have a prison full of raving lunatics foaming at the mouth".


Rememeber, this is the same SHIELD that is completely corrupt and insane and tried to murder the New Avengers not long ago. I just want to be sure we're talking about the same organization so we can assess their trustworthiness.

Hey! look your basing an argument based on things we haven't seen! Didn't you like...just say something about how you shouldn't do that? We have never seen SHIELD out a hero, and even if they did you have the U.S. government who has the ability to give someone a new identity and put them and their friends and family in a witness protection program if SHIELD started outing people.

Hey look I made an argument using common sense again!

[Wind-Breaker]

I don't want to have to start cheering for Dr. Doom to kill the characters I've rooted for for so long.

Thats funny because I do, I'm just weird like that :p

But seriously, I've support the basic idea of heroes registering, but the against how their going about it. At the same time, I'm for the anti-side fighting against zealous enforcement, but I'm don't think the way Cap is going to about is going to make any realistic changes. Like I said before, its a political war, which unfortunately can be only won by playing politics.

So after issue 4, my stance hasn't changed. Dr. Strange seemes to be the only sane mind left in on this whole issue. Really in the big picture, how silly is it for heroes to be bickering with each other when you got bigger problems like I don't know... the Annihilus wave.

[Jmacq1]

Actually, SHIELD did try to blow up the New Avengers not long ago. New Avengers #6, as a matter of fact. Though whether it was a deliberate attempt to kill them or Hill just didn't care if they were "collateral damage" isn't clear. However the fact that she vaporized several dozen (if not hundreds of) innocent Savage Land slaves along with the rogue SHIELD element doesn't speak well of her motivations or her ethics. She'd rather kill innocents than let SHIELD get egg on its' face. Not the kind of person I'd want running an organization that will potentially have more "firepower" than any on Earth (if they don't already) once the SHRA is fully implemented.

[bulbasteve]

Actually, SHIELD did try to blow up the New Avengers not long ago. New Avengers #6, as a matter of fact. Though whether it was a deliberate attempt to kill them or Hill just didn't care if they were "collateral damage" isn't clear. However the fact that she vaporized several dozen (if not hundreds of) innocent Savage Land slaves along with the rogue SHIELD element doesn't speak well of her motivations or her ethics. She'd rather kill innocents than let SHIELD get egg on its' face. Not the kind of person I'd want running an organization that will potentially have more "firepower" than any on Earth (if they don't already) once the SHRA is fully implemented.

Once it is fully implemented according to Civil War Files the C.S.A will be running the 50 state initiative and be in control of all the supers. Plus you got O*N*E with their Sentinels. Anyway if Hill goes and fights Atlantis or the Inhumans on America's behalf I'd be more than happy to let her.

[Jmacq1]

Wow...you don't think the Inhumans have a legitimate grievance against the USA? Or did I just misunderstand and you really meant that you'd like to see Hill get vaporized by Black Bolt literally telling her to piss off? ;)

I mean, it's only basically the equivalent of someone from another country/political power hopping over here and stealing one of our strategic nuclear weapons. (Not -quite- the right analogy given the cultural significance of the Terrigen Mists, but the closest I could come up with).

[bulbasteve]

Wow...you don't think the Inhumans have a legitimate grievance against the USA? Or did I just misunderstand and you really meant that you'd like to see Hill get vaporized by Black Bolt literally telling her to piss off? ;)

I mean, it's only basically the equivalent of someone from another country/political power hopping over here and stealing one of our strategic nuclear weapons. (Not -quite- the right analogy given the cultural significance of the Terrigen Mists, but the closest I could come up with).

Second one always works. I'm not to up on if they know Quicksilver stole it (he did, right?) or not, and if they are blaming us anyway or actually much of what happpened. I just know that if World War Hulk is going to be a world war it will be on land sea and air! And umm wait..are they even on the moon anymore? I gotta keep up with this stuff...

[BigBoss]

yes I am anit reg now. thw whole idea of cloning superheros makes no sense. come on you have a registartion act to gather all these heros and arent going to use them. bogus.

[Jmacq1]

Second one always works. I'm not to up on if they know Quicksilver stole it (he did, right?) or not, and if they are blaming us anyway or actually much of what happpened. I just know that if World War Hulk is going to be a world war it will be on land sea and air! And umm wait..are they even on the moon anymore? I gotta keep up with this stuff...

They knew Quicksilver stole it. When they arrived to reclaim it (in Genosha) a group of US government agents had claimed it. When they asked for their property back, the US guys (I think it might have been O*N*E?) basically laughed in their faces.

[spyridona]

Hoo-boy, I love these threads. Kolhberg would have a freaking hoot over the pro-reggers. They’re perfectly demonstrating his stages of moral development. Notably stage 4. :D

Reed is a caring and devoted father and husband, if easily distracted.

Considering we never see his reaction to Sue leaving, or comforting his kids in CW, it looks like Millar forgot about that part, too! I dunno, I would think in the real world, the love of my life leaving me and two kids who need me would be a little higher up on my list of things to care for. I mean, yeah, Reed's a genius, but we have Tony and Pym.

[jackolover]

I was initially pro-Registration, but after reading issue 4 I am switching sides like Sue and Johnny (and from the looks of it Spidey). Cloning Thor (and other heroes), killing Goliath, and hiring Super-Villains has shown me that perhaps Tony's team is pushing it a wee bit too far.

I am not certain if I really like the Civil War in general, but issues 3 and 4 have hooked me enough to continue the series and see how it ends.


(I'm still hoping the real Thor will return and Spidey will ditch that armour)



I guess I should have put SPOILER on the thread title, but by now I'm sure most people have read issue 4. Sorry if I ruined anything for you.


Yes, reading CW has made me switch sides. I was originally Anti, but I switched to pro, because I wanted to see what would come of the Initative in the MU. I just all of a sudden switched, when I wanted the pro-side to win.

[Conn Seanery]

I was pro from the start but after CW #4, the tactics they're using are a recipe for disaster. They're going to need a miracle to turn this thing around, stomping out the resistance isn't going to do it. I agree with registration in principle but, knowing what I know now, i'd have defected the anti side, if for no other reason than to put a stop to their crazy methods.

[roundman]

Despite how heavy-handed Marvel have been to show the pro-reg as the bad guys, registration makes sense.

Pro-reg.

I agree with you, Pike.

[Johnny_H]

I was anti-reg at the start and if anything, I'm even more anti-reg than before.

Me too, it just seemed like common sense

[misterorange]

Little of both. Firstly, it should be noted I'm frankly disgusted at how the fanboy community has reacted to this. Literally blowing EVERYTHING Tony says or does out of proportion and ignoring Cap's many faults.

In fact, in CW4 alone, people are concentrating on 'evil Tony and Reed' Well, let's see, in just this issue....

Tony seemed to care a lot more than Cap that GOLIATH WAS DEAD
Hank Pym- again, very affected by Goliath
Cap sees the thing as a freaking OPPURTUNITY to gain heroes
Tony REPEATEDLY pleads with Cap to just stand down.
The pro side were genuinely angered and sorrowful about what happened.
The pro-side REGRET the conseuqences of their actions. The anti-regs do things wrong and then TO HELL with the consequences.
One would think the anti-reggers would at least try to go to the funeral, even from a distance, even via camera or something!

But in general, overall, when looked at from a neutral perspective it seems to be this:

Pro-side have the RIGHT reason, the right justification and motive, but their actions are a little more questionable.
Cap has a totally WRONG reason, WRONG motives.... and his actions are flat-out radical.
So because we dont hear Cap talk about Goliath doesnt mean he doesnt care. He is enraged that they had to make a fake Thor to try and scare people. I bet down the road we will hear more from Caps mouth regarding Goliaths death. Peter took the death very hard to espically at the funeral as did Susan and Johnny. So are these 3 (assuming peter goes Anti too) acting to rational for ditching the "right side". As for Cap and others not going to the Funeral they could have thought of it as a trap and not go. Besides Cap was screwed up pretty good and im sure the others were still shaking up with what happen. Now for the bold part this baffles me. You think the Pro side is acting a little questionable, but the Anti side is flat-out radical. Im sorry but who created a clone? Who was the main person who decided they should sent Hulk away? IM and Cap will both have whats coming to them, but i cant wait to see how Hulk and the real Thor will respond when they come back. Since now Tony just gave Thor a great name as a murderer.

[heretic]

But in general, overall, when looked at from a neutral perspective it seems to be this:

Pro-side have the RIGHT reason, the right justification and motive, but their actions are a little more questionable.
Cap has a totally WRONG reason, WRONG motives.... and his actions are flat-out radical.A. Little. More. Questionable.

One of these two side are actively recruiting murderers & madmen, creating cyborg slaves out of a late comrade's DNA, creating extradimensional gulags that are inherently hazardous to the inmates' health/sanity, and ignorining the Bill of Rights completely in thier pursuit of anyone in spandex.

The others are acting more-or-less like the X-Men were during the late '80s.

You can argue that Cap's people could bring a suit before the USSC instead of going underground as they have, but frankly in the face of this kind of behaviour _Magneto's_ goals become well reasoned and justified.

Seriously, the fan community loves to skim the little details when it comes to Cap. Do I agree with using a Thor clone? Well, if it has ethics, I can understand why they did it- and they had no way of knowing it DIDN'T.Given the odds that they created the guy's operating system/personality, or at least heavily influenced it's accelerated development, they should have. DO I agree with super-villains? If they are being tagged, if there is NO CHANCE of escape.... well, it's extreme, but it has to be done. There's no other way of enforcing the law, and desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't agree with it, no. But nor do I agree with Cap's side.
Considering that what Cap's people are doing is essentially Super-Heroing without a license, I find it hard to credit the justifications I have seen for pulling out stops they do not for the likes of the Red Skull.

The failure of these guys to sign up is not, and cannot possibly be, as dire a situation as even the possibility of Bullseye and Mr. Osbourn on the loose; but then Tony and co. have already proven thier wholesale loss of any sense of proportion.

HTG

[Gregg Helmberger]

You can base an argument on what is logical. You had one panel where you saw one person foaming at the mouth. Gee, why not just assume he will be left there to die because we didn't see him be carried away? For all we know his cell could be insano-proof, there are medical facuilities to help with the crazies, they would tranfser him to the big house or another non-crazy-making prison (which also helps conviently letting villains escape in true comic fashion) and any number of other things that make more sense than "they are going to have a prison full of raving lunatics foaming at the mouth".

Well, you're creating all kinds of amenties and features entirely from your imagination, so there's no convincing you that a Negative Zone prison is a bad idea. I will drop the argument now since it has officially become pointless.


Hey! look your basing an argument based on things we haven't seen! Didn't you like...just say something about how you shouldn't do that? We have never seen SHIELD out a hero, and even if they did you have the U.S. government who has the ability to give someone a new identity and put them and their friends and family in a witness protection program if SHIELD started outing people.

Hey look I made an argument using common sense again!

We've seen SHIELD enslave, murder, and lie without even a twinkling of conscience...but I'm sure they can be trusted with privacy data. After all, they seem like very reliable sorts. I mean, we haven't SEEN the enslaving, murdering, conscienceless liars divulge personal information, so I'm sure it's fine to give them your secret identity. You go first.

Your sense isn't all THAT common.

[Eallison]

Despite how heavy-handed Marvel have been to show the pro-reg as the bad guys, registration makes sense.

Pro-reg.

See, I think that's the problem -- it's well beyond simple Registration, now.

Basically, anyone in the MU on the Pro-Reg side (the heroes, mostly, since they are more "in the know" than Joe Average) is at least tacitly approving Negative Zone imprisonment, the virtual (and untried and untested) enslavement of supervillains, and the (currently faulty) cloning of heroes without their consent.

I think the problem started when the idea grew beyond simple Registration with the US Government and some type of training (by the Avengers, the Thunderbolts, the FF, whomever). Once S.H.I.E.L.D. was involved, once it changed from a simple enrollment with training to direct accountability and responsibility to the federal government, I think it fell apart.

I mean, in the most technical sense, isn't Captain America ALREADY registered? His issue seemed at the time to be concern that, if heroes were PART of the government, that the government would decide who their villains are.

We see that happening in CW#4, I think.

In and of itself, Registration would be fine. Unfortunately, that's not what Civil War is about anymore.

It's all the riders, from "answerable to S.H.I.E.L.D." to "Negative Zone Prisons," "backdoor drafts," and "controllable supervillains" that make it all unpalatable to me. It's just all been piled on to the point of unintentional comedy.

Take it and run.

[XPac]

See, I think that's the problem -- it's well beyond simple Registration, now.

Basically, anyone in the MU on the Pro-Reg side (the heroes, mostly, since they are more "in the know" than Joe Average) is at least tacitly approving Negative Zone imprisonment, the virtual (and untried and untested) enslavement of supervillains, and the (currently faulty) cloning of heroes without their consent.

I think the problem started when the idea grew beyond simple Registration with the US Government and some type of training (by the Avengers, the Thunderbolts, the FF, whomever). Once S.H.I.E.L.D. was involved, once it changed from a simple enrollment with training to direct accountability and responsibility to the federal government, I think it fell apart.

I mean, in the most technical sense, isn't Captain America ALREADY registered? His issue seemed at the time to be concern that, if heroes were PART of the government, that the government would decide who their villains are.

We see that happening in CW#4, I think.

In and of itself, Registration would be fine. Unfortunately, that's not what Civil War is about anymore.

It's all the riders, from "answerable to S.H.I.E.L.D." to "Negative Zone Prisons," "backdoor drafts," and "controllable supervillains" that make it all unpalatable to me. It's just all been piled on to the point of unintentional comedy.

Take it and run.


Yeah, that's the real problem with the PRO side. So much of what they are dong really has NOTHING to do with the registration itself. They're tacking on these other agendas to the registration just so they an justify it.

Just because a registration makes sense doesn't mean making homicidal clones out of your dead friends does. One has nothing to do with the other. Armies of Supervillians, negative zone prisons... they're using a simple basic good idea as an excuse to implement some of the most ridicilously reckless dangerous initiatives they can think of.

They're not even following the spirit of the law they are championing if at it's core it's about accountability and putting a stop to reckless hero behavior.

[yeoman]

Throwing a Guard out of a Moving Paddy Wagon and causing a Massive Pile up and kiddnapping Minors in Government Custody and enticing them to sedition against a lawfully and freely elected government because he disagrees with a law that was passed isnt Radical then what is?:eek: :rolleyes: :(


Being vastly dissappointed that one can't fire lethal shots from a floating sci-fi gunboat into a group of teenagers who's only crime was saving the lives of two officers? And only not being allowed cause it would be bad PR?

Cause that's where SHIELD is right now. And these are the guys Tony is totally cool with.

[Eallison]

I was pro from the start but after CW #4, the tactics they're using are a recipe for disaster. They're going to need a miracle to turn this thing around, stomping out the resistance isn't going to do it. I agree with registration in principle but, knowing what I know now, i'd have defected the anti side, if for no other reason than to put a stop to their crazy methods.

Let me ask you this -- at what point did it become unacceptable? I am genuinely curious.

I agree, simple Registration is okay. Some type of standardized training, maybe along the lines of Xavier's school, might be in order. What else, from the Pro-SRA stance to date, do you agree/disagree with?

For me, I think the first point of divergence was the idea of the hero as federal employee. Sure, it's a nice idea, but it seems to undermine the very notion of a hero. These people were (generally) altruists. Yes, even the old Avengers with their stipends ;) . Reducing them to civil servants seemed to belittle that "heroic" idea, IMHO. Worse was making them answerable to the current, Hill-operated S.H.I.E.L.D.

After that, it was just more piling on to make the Pro-SRA (to me) even more distasteful. But I think it was the idea of changing the entire idea of a hero as I saw it that started the problem for me.

Take it and run.

[Kevinroc]

Being vastly dissappointed that one can't fire lethal shots from a floating sci-fi gunboat into a group of teenagers who's only crime was saving the lives of two officers? And only not being allowed cause it would be bad PR?

Cause that's where SHIELD is right now. And these are the guys Tony is totally cool with.

Those weren't "lethal shots," those were tranqs. Said so in the dialogue. Of course, firing tranqs into a group of teenagers isn't exactly noble.

[Gregg Helmberger]

Those weren't "lethal shots," those were tranqs. Said so in the dialogue. Of course, firing tranqs into a group of teenagers isn't exactly noble.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they blow up half a building going after Patriot, and didn't they blow the bejeezus out of Victor of the Runaways just because they could?

[XPac]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they blow up half a building going after Patriot, and didn't they blow the bejeezus out of Victor of the Runaways just because they could?

Obviously they were using very very very very powerful tranqs.

For all we know those buildings weren't registered to code, so SHIELD had the green light to take them down too.

[kalorama]

Let me ask you this -- at what point did it become unacceptable? I am genuinely curious.

I agree, simple Registration is okay. Some type of standardized training, maybe along the lines of Xavier's school, might be in order. What else, from the Pro-SRA stance to date, do you agree/disagree with?

For me, I think the first point of divergence was the idea of the hero as federal employee. Sure, it's a nice idea, but it seems to undermine the very notion of a hero. These people were (generally) altruists. Yes, even the old Avengers with their stipends ;) . Reducing them to civil servants seemed to belittle that "heroic" idea, IMHO. Worse was making them answerable to the current, Hill-operated S.H.I.E.L.D.

That 's the real problem, as I see it.
It seems pretty clear that registering isn't like getting a P.I.'s license. They wouldn't be allowed to just continue their own individual missions, only with some degree of oversight. Registration would make them all defacto agents of a "peacekeeping force" whose recent activities suggest some rather shady hidden agendas. They're being asked/told to fall in line without anyone telling them what they're lining up for.

[Gregg Helmberger]

Obviously they were using very very very very powerful tranqs.

For all we know those buildings weren't registered to code, so SHIELD had the green light to take them down too.

And the building attacked first!

[yeoman]

Those weren't "lethal shots," those were tranqs. Said so in the dialogue. Of course, firing tranqs into a group of teenagers isn't exactly noble.

Yes, they fired tranqs because they weren't allowed to use lethal force against minors due to bad PR. I said they didn't but wanted to. The dialogue also noted how dissapointed they were that they weren't allowed to use lethal force.

Allowed to use it on Victor they gleefully opened fire on a retreating teenager who was only using his powers defensively.

Furthermore, Victor, despite being Ultron's son, is not all machine, has a human mother, who was a citizen of the US and was, himself, "born" in the US.

[bulbasteve]

We've seen SHIELD enslave, murder, and lie without even a twinkling of conscience...but I'm sure they can be trusted with privacy data. After all, they seem like very reliable sorts. I mean, we haven't SEEN the enslaving, murdering, conscienceless liars divulge personal information, so I'm sure it's fine to give them your secret identity. You go first.

Your sense isn't all THAT common.

But you seem to be forgetting that the Government and most heroes are in direct opposition to SHIELD. O*N*E and STARS programs were set up to combat how pervasive SHIELD was to U.S. Secruity. So what do you think, if SHIELD outs people that the government won't support the heroes and quickly give them a new identity? Anyway SHIELD has been "evil" since practically day one (you don't have an immortal man in charge and be a clean organization), and as far as I know they have never outed a hero, they just aren't that dumb to get the heroes to really go after them.

That 's the real problem, as I see it.
It seems pretty clear that registering isn't like getting a P.I.'s license. They wouldn't be allowed to just continue their own individual missions, only with some degree of oversight. Registration would make them all defacto agents of a "peacekeeping force" whose recent activities suggest some rather shady hidden agendas. They're being asked/told to fall in line without anyone telling them what they're lining up for.


Registration doesn't do that. If it did you would see the GLA hunting Cap or something, if you want to join SHIELD (or are backdoor drafted into it) that is one thing, but you can always join the C.S.A like Deadpool or O*N*E like Bishop or just head back home and wait for the 50 state initiative like the Great Lakes (insert name here)'s.

Just because a registration makes sense doesn't mean making homicidal clones out of your dead friends does. One has nothing to do with the other. Armies of Supervillians, negative zone prisons... they're using a simple basic good idea as an excuse to implement some of the most ridicilously reckless dangerous initiatives they can think of.


1. There has been the Thunderbolts for maybe what a year or so of Marvel time and neither Cap or anyone has never seriously has taken any measures to take them down, so don't blame that on registration or the pro-reg side.

2. The Negative Zone prison also existed pre-Civil War, all they have done is upgrade it. Noone said Kirkman protrayed Reed as a heartless bastard for making it back in FF:Foes.

3. Most of the New Thunderbolts are going back to jail right after Cap is captured, if Cap were to have turned himself in or stood down in the last battle then Venom would be back in jail right now. So that is all on Cap as well.

4. Same for the clones, they weren't going to be ready "for a month", but they had to use one in the field because Cap had to go and try and fight Iron Man. And of course the clone wouldn't have killed anyone if Cap had stayed down after getting his freakin brains scrambled.

So it isn't the registration that is an excuse. It is Cap's lawlessness that has let most of these programs take place.

[kalorama]

Registration doesn't do that. If it did you would see the GLA hunting Cap or something, if you want to join SHIELD (or are backdoor drafted into it) that is one thing, but you can always join the C.S.A like Deadpool or O*N*E like Bishop or just head back home and wait for the 50 state initiative like the Great Lakes (insert name here)'s.

Yes it does do that. It was pointed out early on that all registered superheroes are de facto agents of the Federal Government. They may be assigned to SHIELD or some other task force, but the end result is the same. They're drafted as soldiers subject to command by faceless bureaucrats whose agendas they are under no obligation to be told. They can be directed who to use their powers on, with no say in the matter. To paraphrase a line from Cap to Hank Pym: "People keep asking me to play ball, but no one will say who I'm playing with or what I'm playing for."

That's the central crux of Cap's argument, and it makes perfect sense.

[Alpow]

3. Most of the New Thunderbolts are going back to jail right after Cap is captured, if Cap were to have turned himself in or stood down in the last battle then Venom would be back in jail right now. So that is all on Cap as well.

4. Same for the clones, they weren't going to be ready "for a month", but they had to use one in the field because Cap had to go and try and fight Iron Man. And of course the clone wouldn't have killed anyone if Cap had stayed down after getting his freakin brains scrambled.

So it isn't the registration that is an excuse. It is Cap's lawlessness that has let most of these programs take place.

That is like blaming Poland for the Second World War and any actions the Germans took therein, Stark is capable of free will and he made those choices and he bears the responsibility.

[Taskmaster]

No, not sorry enough to stop plans for the betterment of humanity. They are deciding things for everybody else? Hah- that's EXACTLY what Cap is doing.


I've mostly stayed out of the arguments, but how is this what Cap is doing? He is letting everyone make up their own mind, they don't have to follow him if they don't want to, he's doing what he thinks is right and if people follow him so be it. On the other hand what Reed and Tony are doing is equivalent to what Superman did in Red Son and when Luthor told him, it was the only thing that defeated him, and that is treating the world as a pet, they can't make things better, they have to let everyone come to the conculsion and work together to do so, just the few who have the power can't take over or the rest of us are nothing more than the family dog

[bulbasteve]

Yes it does do that. It was pointed out early on that all registered superheroes are de facto agents of the Federal Government. They may be assigned to SHIELD or some other task force, but the end result is the same.

Let me quote Tom in the Q&A thread: "The Registration Act can't force anybody to operate as a super hero, any more than you can force somebody to be a police officer or a federal marshall. However, the Registration Act does allow those in a certain position access to information about the whereabouts and abilities of all the registered superhumans--and in certain situations, pressure could be put upon different individuals to lend their particular abilities to a given cause or a given need."

There is no assigning to SHIELD or any other agency, the individuals decide which ones to join as we could see with say Deadpool when being ASKED to join a C.S.A team.

They're drafted as soldiers subject to command by faceless bureaucrats whose agendas they are under no obligation to be told. They can be directed who to use their powers on, with no say in the matter. To paraphrase a line from Cap to Hank Pym: "People keep asking me to play ball, but no one will say who I'm playing with or what I'm playing for."

That's the central crux of Cap's argument, and it makes perfect sense.

They would be under the command of whoever they decide to be under. Whether it be Hill in SHIELD or the Commision members in the C.S.A, these people certainly aren't Faceless since we do see the profiles of exactly who is in charge of what in the Civil War Files.

But the real beauty of the system, and what stops any organization from abusing their power, is that these organizations are all rivals, it creates a balance of power. The U.S. Government doesn't trust SHIELD, if SHIELD went and told you to assassinate a world leader you go off to the C.S.A or the President and tell them what SHIELD is up to. Heck there is even the "Presidential Super Hero Task Force", which is run by Tony Stark, there is certainly a name and a face if you want one.

[kalorama]

Well, Tom Breevort can say what he wants in interviews. But what's been portrayed in the actual books telling the story paints a different picture. An armed SHIELD Battalion showing up at Luke Cage's door 5 minutes after the deadline does not do much to advance the idea of "freedom of choice." And Deadpool may have benn "asked" to joina particular squad, but did we see the consequences of what would happen if he refused the "offer"? (I don't read, or really give a rat's ass about, Deadpool so I really don't know.)

They would be under the command of whoever they decide to be under. Whether it be Hill in SHIELD or the Commision members in the C.S.A, these people certainly aren't Faceless since we do see the profiles of exactly who is in charge of what in the Civil War Files.

Except we aren't federally conscripted agents in the Marvel universe. I seriously doubt they're going to give Silverclaw access to highly classified Federal personnel files and let her pick who she wants to work for. And most of these "faces" you cite are essentially just public figureheads. Stark may be the face of the Super hero Task Force, but he's not really in charge. he's dancing on the president's strings. Besides, you're taking the word faceless too literally. it doesn't just mean not knowing what they look like. It means not knowing their goals and agendas, most of which are not accessible, either to the public or their spandex lackeys.

But the real beauty of the system, and what stops any organization from abusing their power, is that these organizations are all rivals, it creates a balance of power. The U.S. Government doesn't trust SHIELD, if SHIELD went and told you to assassinate a world leader you go off to the C.S.A or the President and tell them what SHIELD is up to. Heck there is even the "Presidential Super Hero Task Force", which is run by Tony Stark, there is certainly a name and a face if you want one.

That's a rather naive view of how the government works. Power is routinely abused in the highest (and even the middle and lowest) ranks of the government, despite all of the "checks and balances" built into the system. The idea that SHIELD is going to think twice about pursuing their agenda because it might piss off Tony Stark (or vice versa) is wishful thinking.

[Alpow]

Let me quote Tom in the Q&A thread: "The Registration Act can't force anybody to operate as a super hero, any more than you can force somebody to be a police officer or a federal marshall. However, the Registration Act does allow those in a certain position access to information about the whereabouts and abilities of all the registered superhumans--and in certain situations, pressure could be put upon different individuals to lend their particular abilities to a given cause or a given need."


He does however make the distinction that super hero != agent of shield.

When asked

"If Jessica Jones registers, isn't she signing a backdoor draft that allows SHIELD to suit up if SHIELD requires her to?"

He responded

"Potentially, yes. But being called upon to work with SHIELD isn't the same thing as operating as a super hero."

So in other words they can't force you to be a super hero but they can force you to work for Shield (where you use your super powers).

Or to put it another way, they can't force you to save kittens in trees but they can force you to go about murdering foreigners.

Beyond that he also says

"There's no actual Super Hero draft, but the Registration Act could potentially be used as a "back door draft", as it requires all those possessing superhuman abilities to register with SHIELD and the government, and to be licensed in theri activities. In the same way that Army Reservists have found themselves serving interminable, undefined stints of active duty in Iraq due to the specific way the Reserve is set up, so too may certain heroes find themselves in similar situations in CIVIL WAR."

People can be forced to fight in foreign wars for an indeterminate length of time (this quote is from directly above the one you posted).

So even if we put the out of universe quotes from the creators above the cannon we still see indications that people can be forced to be shield agents, just not heroes.

[bulbasteve]

Well, Tom Breevort can say what he wants in interviews. But what's been portrayed in the actual books telling the story paints a different picture. An armed SHIELD Battalion showing up at Luke Cage's door 5 minutes after the deadline does not do much to advance the idea of "freedom of choice.")

You don't have the choice to register or not. Cage's issue is pretty cut and dry, he didn't register so they are taking him in. There is no "Freedom of chocie" in if you have to follow the law or not.

That's a rather naive view of how the government works. Power is routinely abused in the highest (and even the middle and lowest) ranks of the government, despite all of the "checks and balances" built into the system. The idea that SHIELD is going to think twice about pursuing their agenda because it might piss off Tony Stark (or vice versa) is wishful thinking.

The "naive" view is more correct in the real world than thinking politicians are just the "public face" of something greater, that seems to be getting into conspiracy theory territory. Although I'm probably just misinterpreting what you meant...

Anyway remember Secret War? They made Nick Fury an international fugitive. I think based on continuity and the governemnts distrust of SHIELD also as seen in CWF that it is pretty clearly SHIELD will be thinking twice about stepping over the line.

So even if we put the out of universe quotes from the creators above the cannon we still see indications that people can be forced to be shield agents, just not heroes.

Wait normal people too? Or do you mean retired or civilian heroes?

anyway as I have said I don't argue with that, but like I said if SHIELD tries to draft someone for something they don't want to go they can go to Stark or the C.S.A. Not to mention of course going right to the press.

[kalorama]

There is no "Freedom of chocie" in if you have to follow the law or not.

Then, by admitting that, you concede that everything you've previoulsy written about how the registrees do have choice is null and void. Because, as has been made quite clear, the consequences of obeying this law is that you become a conscripted, super-powered soldier under the direction of the Federal government and subect to do their bidding without choice or question, like any other soldier. That part is really not an issue for interpretation it's been made explicitly clear. By law they will be made superpowered agents of the government and will by law have to follow the orders they are given.

The "naive" view is more correct in the real world than thinking politicians are just the "public face" of something greater, that seems to be getting into conspiracy theory territory. Although I'm probably just misinterpreting what you meant...

You understood what I meant perfectly. What you don't seem to understand is that Civil War isn't taking place in the real world. In the world where it does take place (to say nothing of the "real" world), conspiracies among the power broker elites are quite real. Captain America knows this because he's been on the business end of more than one of them. Thus his fully justified fears about giving the men who perpetuate such schemes the unfettered right to tell the likes of Iron man, human Torch, or Quasar what to do and to whom to do it.

Anyway remember Secret War? They made Nick Fury an international fugitive. I think based on continuity and the governemnts distrust of SHIELD also as seen in CWF that it is pretty clearly SHIELD will be thinking twice about stepping over the line.

Why? Fury didn't think twice about stepping over the line, despite knowing full well the consequences of doing so. He pursued his agenda and thumbed his nose at the so called "checks and balances" meant to keep him in place. He did what he thought needed to be done and didn't give a rat's ass if his bosses didn't like it. He was arrogant, short-sighted, and dismissive, a common attitude among those who wield great power, including the very people who will wield the power gathererd under the Registration Act. That very example you brought up just underscores my point.

[Alpow]

Wait normal people too? Or do you mean retired or civilian heroes?

What is the difference between a retired hero and a super-civilian?

I haven't seen anything to suggest there is a line between those how have been heroes and those who haven't (those who are and aren't currently of course does have a line of some sort).

anyway as I have said I don't argue with that, but like I said if SHIELD tries to draft someone for something they don't want to go they can go to Stark or the C.S.A. Not to mention of course going right to the press.

This assumes the CSA and/or Stark can be trusted, Stark has already shown he is willing to do some rather repugnant things to get warm bodies for his crusade and any body with Gyrich on it’s board should be viewed with suspicion.

The draft angle might be less of a worry in the long term however, once Stark has a super human robot on every street corner that answers only to him I doubt he will have much use for actual heroes who won’t give him unquestioning obedience.

The problem of course is that he probably won’t have much use for small minded politicians giving him orders either.

[Pheonix-NoRelation]

I've gone from Pro-Reg to Anti-Reg to Undecided. So yeah.

[bulbasteve]

Then, by admitting that, you concede that everything you've previoulsy written about how the registries do have choice is null and void. Because, as has been made quite clear, the consequences of obeying this law is that you become a conscripted, super-powered soldier under the direction of the Federal government and subect to do their bidding without choce or question, like any other soldier. That part is really not an issue for interpretation it's been made explicitly clear. By law they will be made superpowered agents of the government and will [by law[/b] orders they are given.

How is that? They have a choice of what if any government organization they want to join. Give me an example of where it is made explicetly states that all work under the direction of the federal government (which doesnt' even make sense because SHIELD is an international organization...so it's wrong right on the face of it).

You understood what I meant perfectly. What you don't seem to understand is that Civil War isn't taking place in the real world. In the world where it does take place (to say nothing of the "real" world), conspiracies among the power broker elites are quite real. Captain America knows this because he's been on the business end of more than one of them. Thus his fully justified fears about giving the men who perpetuate such schemes the unfettered right to tell the likes of Iron man, human Torch, or Quasar what to do and to whom to do it.

Someone watched Nixon a few too many times, eh? I'm not sure how I can take things you say seriously when you want us to believe there are government conspiracies....

Why? Fury didn't think twice about stepping over the line, despite knowing full well the consequences of doing so. He pursued his agenda and thumbed his nose at the so called "checks and balances" meant to keep him in place. He did what he thought needed to be done and idn't give a rat's ass if his bosses didn't like it. He was arrogant, short-sighted, and simissive, a common attitude among those who wield great power, including the very people who will wield the power gathererd under the Registration Act. That very example you brought up just underscores my point.

Uuuh but he is a INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL now. The checks and balances worked...I don't quite see where your argument is.

[bulbasteve]

What is the difference between a retired hero and a super-civilian?

I haven't seen anything to suggest there is a line between those how have been heroes and those who haven't (those who are and aren't currently of course does have a line of some sort).

I suppose there may be a difference in terms of who they recruit. I mean we haven't seen any super-civilians fighting yet so who knows, but they don't seem to be doing anything.

This assumes the CSA and/or Stark can be trusted, Stark has already shown he is willing to do some rather repugnant things to get warm bodies for his crusade and any body with Gyrich on it?s board should be viewed with suspicion.

The draft angle might be less of a worry in the long term however, once Stark has a super human robot on every street corner that answers only to him I doubt he will have much use for actual heroes who won?t give him unquestioning obedience.

The problem of course is that he probably won?t have much use for small minded politicians giving him orders either.

Stark does seem to trust them if you read Civil War Files. Heck he even let's Gyrich off the hook and says he only ever had the best intentions for the country. He also says he wants to see them running the 50 state initiative. And from his own musings about his own life in the files, frankly I think he is giving second thoughts to his own holier than thou attitudes (and seeing Cap fall in the same trap sure has to get him thinking).

[Alpow]

I suppose there may be a difference in terms of who they recruit. I mean we haven't seen any super-civilians fighting yet so who knows, but they don't seem to be doing anything.

Yet, that we have seen but Stark clearly thinks it is a possibility and he admitted as much Jessica.

Starks a business man, his business is to get people to want what he was offering and if it wasn’t a possibility he would have said as much, hell he didn’t even say it was unlikely he just gave vague statement which amounted to telling her, don’t worry about it at the moment.

Stark does seem to trust them if you read Civil War Files. Heck he even let's Gyrich off the hook and says he only ever had the best intentions for the country.

So did that Austrian chap who ended up in charge of Germany.

Hell I bet he wishes he had giant purple robots to hunt down the minority he wanted to destroy.

He also says he wants to see them running the 50 state initiative. And from his own musings about his own life in the files, frankly I think he is giving second thoughts to his own holier than thou attitudes (and seeing Cap fall in the same trap sure has to get him thinking).

And yet he is willing to cross all moral and ethical boundaries by cloning his dead friend with no permission, creating a brainwashed pseudo-human (who they apparently operate on with minimal anaesthetic), releasing and enslaving criminals onto the streets, imprisoning his former associates and friends in an area which clearly violates the constitutional protections against cruel and unusual punishments and so on.

Tony has shown that he has a vision for the future, he can't conceive that he is wrong and that he will do anything to achieve his aims.

What happens when Tony decides that the lives of the human race would be much better off if he was running the planet?

[kalorama]

What happens when Tony decides that the lives of the human race would be much better off if he was running the planet?

Iron Maniac?

[Affinity]

One would think the anti-reggers would at least try to go to the funeral, even from a distance, even via camera or something!

I think it would have been a very powerful scene if everyone showed up, both sides, to pay thier respects.

[Alpow]

Iron Maniac?

Maybe he could convert and become Grand Irontollah Stark.

[Alpow]

I think it would have been a very powerful scene if everyone showed up, both sides, to pay thier respects.

And then Stark turned around and started firing on them?

[spaz]

Still Anti-Reg. But I'd like to see some of the marvel civilians direct some hate and anger towards the super-villians. They are the ones causing the death and financial losses. Public knowledge of all villian's identities should be available too. If people can know Spiderman's identity and all his relatives, than Electro should not be immune. In fact I'd like to see a story where a relative of a supervillian gets killed for revenge because that villian killed a the wrong person's relative.

[kalorama]

How is that? They have a choice of what if any government organization they want to join. Give me an example of where it is made explicetly states that all work under the direction of the federal government (which doesnt' even make sense because SHIELD is an international organization...so it's wrong right on the face of it).

They MAY get to chose which organization orders them around. but in clear contrast to the implication of your posts, they have no say in what orders they get to follow once they join up. You can CHOOSE to join the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, or Coast Guard. but once you join you're their property to do with as they please. Same rules apply here. If SHIELD or the CSA or whomever orders Johnny Storm to nova blast Afghanistan do you really think he'll have the freedom to debate the morality of the issue with his bosses, let alone say "no"? Of course he won't. Thus, there is no freedom under the Act other than the illusory freedom to choose your poison.

Someone watched Nixon a few too many times, eh? I'm not sure how I can take things you say seriously when you want us to believe there are government conspiracies....

I'm guessing from the tone of your answers that you weren't around when Nixon was around. Or when ABSCAM happened. Or when Iran-Contra was going on. Or ...

Uuuh but he is a INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL now. The checks and balances worked...I don't quite see where your argument is.

Not surprising, given your previous answers. I'll help you out: he's an international criminal... after the fact. The "checks and balances" you wave around like a shield didn't stop Fury from conning a dozen superhumans into invading a foreign nation in an undeclared act of war that killed scores of innocent civlilians abroad and resulted in retaliatory action that killed innocent civilians on U.S. soil. All it did was make him look bad for doing it. The "checks and balances" did nothing to actually stop the disaster from occurring (nor did it stop him from continuing to pursue his agenda once he went underground), which makes them pretty impotent as a safeguard against a corrupt official using indentured superhumans for his/her own purposes, which is what you seem to think they'd be.

Bottom line: There have always been checks and balances built into the american system of government, from the day the founders signed the Constitution. And, within the MU, there were checks and balances in place when Captain AMerica discovered the Secret Empire conspiracy controlling the government (which led to him abandoning the shield for the first time); when the Red-freakin'-Skull got himself appointed secretary of defense and tried to start WWIII by murdering millions of Americans with a cloud of pison gas and blaming it on Wakanda. But they've never been a failsafe shield against corruption and abuse of power, and they never will.

[bulbasteve]

So did that Austrian chap who ended up in charge of Germany.

Hell I bet he wishes he had giant purple robots to hunt down the minority he wanted to destroy.


Dude we have like 5 months left, it isn't time for Godwin's law to start popping up yet.

To get back on topic: This has only made me more pro-reg :p

They MAY get to chose which organization orders them around. but in clear contrast to the implication of your posts, they have no say in what orders they get to follow once they join up.

I asked for an example, didn't I? You either have one or you don't.

I'm guessing from the tone of your answers that you weren't born when Nixon was around. Or when ABSCAM happened. Or when Iran-Contra was going on. Or ...

But, just to keep it within the MU realm: Do any of these ring a bell: Secret Empire, Secretary of Defense Dell Rusk? Look them up and get back to me.

And I'm guessing you think we didn't land on the moon either by the tone of yours. :D

As for the MU realm. Millar himself, Joe, Tom and everyone else has said there is NO conspiracy. I'm not sure how much more clear it can be than that.

Not surprising, given your previous answers. I'll help you out: he's an international criminal... after the fact. The precious "checks and balances" you wave around like a shield didn't stop Fury from conning a dozen superhumans into invading a foreign nation in an undeclared act of war that killed scores of innocent civlilians abroad and resulted in retaliatory action that killed innocent civilians on U.S. soil. All it did was make him look bad for doing it. The "checks and blances" did nothing to actually stop the disaster from occurring, which makes them pretty impotent as a safeguard against a corrupt official using indentured superhumans for his/her own purposes, which is what you seem to think they'd be.

That is like saying that the U.S's checks and balances don't work just because the Congress can pass a unconstitutional law or the President can take an unconstitutional action. It's a CHECK afterall, there are consequences when it happens. Or it is like saying that because there is a law or rule in place it magically should make noone ever break it. It's a deterrent and there are consequences when you step over the line.

uuugh, and what you wanted him to be an international criminal BEFORE he commited a crime?! How can you be a criminal BEFORE you commit a crime!? My god man...I mean...what the hell?

[Alpow]

Dude we have like 5 months left, it isn't time for Godwin's law to start popping up yet.

Perhaps you know the Russian epic of Cinderella?

(If the shoe fits, wear it).

:)

[Alpow]

Oh the Shield accountability front, keep in mind that after Fury went underground Shield were using an LMD to make it still look like Fury was running the show, how accountable can an organisation be when the public isn't even aware who is running the thing.

It also speaks badly for Shields willingness to bring Fury to justice, it appears they are more concerned about keeping what happened hushed up (since obviously the arrest warrants aren’t public).

[kalorama]

I asked for an example, didn't I? You either have one or you don't.

Go back and reread what Stark says to Peter when he's trying to convice him to unmask, or what he says to Luke Cage when he's trying to convince him to register/ It's plainly clear in simple black and white text.

As for the MU realm. Millar himself, Joe, Tom and everyone else has said there is NO conspiracy. I'm not sure how much more clear it can be than that.

Are you actually reading the books or just following the interviews and convention panels? It doesn't matter what they say in an interview. Do you actually think they'll give away the entire plot before the book gets published? I'm basing my interpretaions on what's actually in the stories. That said, I never claimed there was a conspiracy behind what's happening now. The point is, there's documented evidence of dirty dealings and abuse of power in the past, despite all the "checks and balances". So any claims that "it can't happen" (which is just what you've said, numerous times in numerous ways) are ludicrous on their face.

That is like saying that the U.S's checks and balances don't work just because the Congress can pass a unconstitutional law or the President can take an unconstitutional action. It's a CHECK afterall, there are consequences when it happens. Or it is like saying that because there is a law or rule in place it magically should make noone ever break it. It's a deterrent and there are consequences when you step over the line.

Fat lotta good that'll do all those scorched and burned Afghani's after the Torch is done with 'em. And, again, you said that things couldn't get out of hand because there were "checks and balances." That's like saying we don't need gun control because murder's already illegal. If there's no mechanism for stopping people from crossing the line (only for punishing them for crossing it) of course things can get out of hand. The only thing the "checks and balances" will do in that instances is allow them to clean up the mess. By then, it's already too late.

uuugh, and what you wanted him to be an international criminal BEFORE he commited a crime?! How can you be a criminal BEFORE you commit a crime!? My god man...I mean...what the hell?


That's so off the mark and irrelevant as to not even merit actual response. (Other than to expand on what Alpow said above: Fury's still free, he's still advancing his agenda, and SHIELD is still doing bupkus to stop him becuase they're more concerned with covering their asses rather than enforcing the law. So much for "checks and balances.")

[bulbasteve]

Go back and reread what Stark says to Peter when he's trying to convice him to unmask, or what he says to Luke Cage when he's trying to convince him to register/ It's plainly clear in simple black and white text.

As I recall neither of those have anything to do with any legal requirement to work for the govenrment/SHIELD or anyone else.

Are you actually reading the books or just following the interviews and convention panels? It doesn't matter what they say in an interview. Do you actually think they'll give away the entire plot before the book gets published? I'm basing my interpretaions on what's actually in the stories. That said, I never claimed there was a conspiracy behind what's happening now. The point is, there's documented evidence of dirty dealings and abuse of power in the past, despite all the "checks and balances". So any claims that "it can't happen" (which is just what you've said, numerous times in numerous ways) are ludicrous on their face.

First, they gave away Goliath dying so yes they will give away the plot before things are published. As well I have never said it won't ever happen, in fact all my posts have been ways to hold people like SHIELD accountable when and if it does happen. As well you did say that the people in the government are "only the public face", that does sound like you are saying it is a conspiracy to me.

Fat lotta good that'll do all those scorched and burned Afghani's after the Torch is done with 'em. And, again, you said that things couldn't get out of hand because there were "checks and balances." That's like saying we don't need gun control because murder's already illegal. If there's no mechanism for stopping people from crossing the line (only for punishing them for crossing it) of course things can get out of hand. The only thing the "checks and balances" will do in that instances is allow them to clean up the mess. By then, it's already too late.

I already went through how any individual would stop it from happening before it right in this topic: "But the real beauty of the system, and what stops any organization from abusing their power, is that these organizations are all rivals, it creates a balance of power. The U.S. Government doesn't trust SHIELD, if SHIELD went and told you to assassinate a world leader you go off to the C.S.A or the President and tell them what SHIELD is up to. Heck there is even the "Presidential Super Hero Task Force", which is run by Tony Stark, there is certainly a name and a face if you want one." And heck I didn't even MENTION the press. There are more than enough places for any hero to whistle blow to.

That's so off the mark and irrelevant as to not even merit actual response. (Other than to expand on what Alpow said above: Fury's still free, he's still advancing his agenda, and SHIELD is still doing bupkus to stop him becuase they're more concerned with covering their asses rather than enforcing the law. So much for "checks and balances.")

How is that off the mark. You said: "I'll help you out: he's an international criminal... after the fact." Now if you care to explain how someone can be made a criminal before they have actually committed the crime save an MU crossover with Minority Report. :D

[Conn Seanery]

Let me ask you this -- at what point did it become unacceptable? I am genuinely curious.

I agree, simple Registration is okay. Some type of standardized training, maybe along the lines of Xavier's school, might be in order. What else, from the Pro-SRA stance to date, do you agree/disagree with?
What I meant was that with issue #4, the pro-reg side just went too far for me to follow. It's not one thing as much as a culmination of all the moves they're making, reaching the boiling point by the end of issue #4. Cloning Thor, using villains to hunt down the antis, killing Goliath...this is where I quit. It's too much.

For me, I think the first point of divergence was the idea of the hero as federal employee. Sure, it's a nice idea, but it seems to undermine the very notion of a hero. These people were (generally) altruists. Yes, even the old Avengers with their stipends ;) . Reducing them to civil servants seemed to belittle that "heroic" idea, IMHO. Worse was making them answerable to the current, Hill-operated S.H.I.E.L.D.

After that, it was just more piling on to make the Pro-SRA (to me) even more distasteful. But I think it was the idea of changing the entire idea of a hero as I saw it that started the problem for me.
Well, the appeal to me was that this sort of thing would streamline the super hero with the common hero. There's training, assessment, and it's all legit. People with powers have a solid goal that earns them clear benefits: a job, pay, security, and backed by others like you and an already functioning international task force. And you get to help people. I said this at the very beginning, it's the idealistic version of the SHRA.

Who knows, maybe that scenario is still attainable. I'm just not gonna like how we chose to get there.

[yeoman]

What I meant was that with issue #4, the pro-reg side just went too far for me to follow. It's not one thing as much as a culmination of all the moves they're making, reaching the boiling point by the end of issue #4. Cloning Thor, using villains to hunt down the antis, killing Goliath...this is where I quit. It's too much.


So, SHIELD goons being the kind of guys that want to fire lethal force into teenagers, Iron-man manipulating his one time friends and people who trusted him, telling mothers with infant children they might just force her to be a weapon for SHIELD cause they feel like it, bringing an armed batallion to arret a man befor ehe's done anything wrong, all these arn't enough to be a breaking point?

Maybe you were jsut reading the main book and didn't see the above, but I was unfortunate to be already deading the books the above took place in, and Stark's latest gamble with insanity does not surprise me.

[Conn Seanery]

So, SHIELD goons being the kind of guys that want to fire lethal force into teenagers, Iron-man manipulating his one time friends and people who trusted him, telling mothers with infant children they might just force her to be a weapon for SHIELD cause they feel like it, bringing an armed batallion to arret a man befor ehe's done anything wrong, all these arn't enough to be a breaking point?

Maybe you were jsut reading the main book and didn't see the above, but I was unfortunate to be already deading the books the above took place in, and Stark's latest gamble with insanity does not surprise me.
I'm not sure what "lethal force against teens" you're talking about (the only incident I can think of is SHIELD attacking Patriot in CW #2, but it wasn't lethal), but I do get New Avengers.

Like I said, I was holding on to the idealistic version of the SHRA, as I described it. I never expected it to be implemented and accepted that easily, but that's how I saw it. You could even say I was waiting for the ends to justify the means. I wanted to see it work, even turned a blind eye to some of the questionable methods and tactics, but CW #4 was my breaking point.

[yeoman]

I'm not sure what "lethal force against teens" you're talking about (the only incident I can think of is SHIELD attacking Patriot in CW #2, but it wasn't lethal), but I do get New Avengers.


Runaways/Young Avengers #1/ The Runaways save two SHIELD agents from Flag smasher. Their comrades in the sci-fi gunboat talk about how dissapointed they are that they can't use lethal force against the Runaways cause killing teenagers would be bad PR.

That is the only reason. It would play bad on TV. Not cause, ya know, it would be wrong.

They moment they find out one of them is part machine and no one will care if they kill him they open up with the nastiest stuff they have. At which point the Runaways where in full retreat.

Like I said, I was holding on to the idealistic version of the SHRA, as I described it. I never expected it to be implemented and accepted that easily, but that's how I saw it. You could even say I was waiting for the ends to justify the means. I wanted to see it work, even turned a blind eye to some of the questionable methods and tactics, but CW #4 was my breaking point.

Frankly, with Cap on the other side, there is no way the SHRA could anything reasonable in execution. Otherwise Cap wouldn't have opposed it.

I was, and still am that the moment Cap's on the side you're not on, you've backed the wrong side. Well, maybe not now that Cap's gone as insane as Tony's side.

Wee! It's just like Beast Machines! No one's worth rooting for!

[Conn Seanery]

Runaways/Young Avengers #1/ The Runaways save two SHIELD agents from Flag smasher. Their comrades in the sci-fi gunboat talk about how dissapointed they are that they can't use lethal force against the Runaways cause killing teenagers would be bad PR.

That is the only reason. It would play bad on TV. Not cause, ya know, it would be wrong.

They moment they find out one of them is part machine and no one will care if they kill him they open up with the nastiest stuff they have. At which point the Runaways where in full retreat.
I don't get CW:R/YA. But yeah, that sounds pretty bad.

Frankly, with Cap on the other side, there is no way the SHRA could anything reasonable in execution. Otherwise Cap wouldn't have opposed it.

I was, and still am that the moment Cap's on the side you're not on, you've backed the wrong side. Well, maybe not now that Cap's gone as insane as Tony's side.
Normally i'd agree with that failsafe "am I on the right team" assessment, but being anti reg is too easy. I want the SHRA to work, so I really wanted the pro regs to be right.

[Alan2099]

Normally i'd agree with that failsafe "am I on the right team" assessment, but being anti reg is too easy. I want the SHRA to work, so I really wanted the pro regs to be right.
You want a version of it that never existed and nobody ever seemed to actually try to create. That's the problem. You're in favor of something nobody is trying to make reasonable, or for that matter, even trying to make actually work.

There's no sense supporting a side of an issue that doesn't exactly exist. You might as well try to say, you'd love to see Carnage get a series if he stopped being so crazy and killing people.

[Will.S]

I actually went from pro to neutral so that's where it stands to me so far.

[Conn Seanery]

You want a version of it that never existed and nobody ever seemed to actually try to create. That's the problem. You're in favor of something nobody is trying to make reasonable, or for that matter, even trying to make actually work.

There's no sense supporting a side of an issue that doesn't exactly exist. You might as well try to say, you'd love to see Carnage get a series if he stopped being so crazy and killing people.
Say something positive. Just once. I dare you.

I picked my side before the whole thing started, based on what I wanted to see. I stuck with it as long as I felt I could.

[Alan2099]

Say something positive. Just once. I dare you.
Annihilation is really interesting. I've really enjoyed Marvel-Team up. I look forward to the new Spider-girl and A-next stories.

Or did you mean about this storyline? :p
Well, Baron Zemo has had some really nice moments and the Wolverine issues have really worked well.

[scratchie]

I picked my side before the whole thing started, based on what I wanted to see.Unfortunately, Marvel didn't actually write the story they said they were writing. There hasn't been any point in this story when the pro-reg characters haven't been unambiguously (and unapologetically) ready to use deadly force.

[Conn Seanery]

Annihilation is really interesting. I've really enjoyed Marvel-Team up. I look forward to the new Spider-girl and A-next stories.

Or did you mean about this storyline? :p
Well, Baron Zemo has had some really nice moments and the Wolverine issues have really worked well.
Heh, just wanted to make sure you were capable of it. Carry on!

[XPac]

Unfortunately, Marvel didn't actually write the story they said they were writing. There hasn't been any point in this story when the pro-reg characters haven't been unambiguously (and unapologetically) ready to use deadly force.

Well, the pro Reg heroes in GENERAL don't use deadly force. The Thor clone was a mistake. A stupid reckless one... but a mistake nonetheless.

SHIELD is a different matter entirely. But in all fairness they were built up as being corrupt for the last year and a half. So they're being written in character, at least in regards to what SHIELD has become post Nick Fury.

[Alan2099]

While I'd still be against Registration, there were some interesting ideas in Civil War, unfortunatley, the mainbook is the worst written one of all of them. Most of the tie-ins are actually better than the mainstoryline.

[Will.S]

What I meant was that with issue #4, the pro-reg side just went too far for me to follow. It's not one thing as much as a culmination of all the moves they're making, reaching the boiling point by the end of issue #4. Cloning Thor, using villains to hunt down the antis, killing Goliath...this is where I quit. It's too much.
Just curious but are you going keep up with the title at least?

[scratchie]

Well, the pro Reg heroes in GENERAL don't use deadly force.I wouldn't make that generalization. In an issue of Spider-Man, Tony said "... before the dying begins tomorrow" and nobody batted an eye. Considering that the act hadn't even passed at that point, it certainly sounds like the Pro Reg side was expecting to use deadly force from the start.

[yeoman]

Annihilation is really interesting. I've really enjoyed Marvel-Team up. I look forward to the new Spider-girl and A-next stories.

Or did you mean about this storyline? :p
Well, Baron Zemo has had some really nice moments and the Wolverine issues have really worked well.


The FF scene where Blake comes back for the hammer was awsome personified.

And the aftermath is putting Beta Ray Bill on a team book. Horse Thor from space FTW.

[yeoman]

Normally i'd agree with that failsafe "am I on the right team" assessment, but being anti reg is too easy. I want the SHRA to work, so I really wanted the pro regs to be right.


That's jsut it though, they had to make Cap a total asshat that makes Ultimate Cap look warm and personable just to make the other side look like they might not be complete slimeballs.

With Cap given his normal characterization, there is *no* way he could be on the side against the government and have it be the right side.

Now, had Cap been on the pro-reg side you can argue he's just supporting his country, even if he's not entirely sure it's right, cause Cap does that some times. But for him to work against it, the idea or execution of the idea has to be crackheaded in the extreme.

Frankly, if they wanted a Civil war with both sides treated actually equally, it should be Cap leading the pro-reg and Spidey leading the Anti-reg. Both are the moral centers of the MU, and those are sides the two can be on and not necessarily be right.

But, hey, that would make sense and not give us Clor.

ON a related note: I am shocked and appalled that halfway through Bill Foster's funeral TOny didn't suddenly find Beta Ray Bill performing a body cavity search on Mr. Stark using his magic uru space hammer.

[XPac]

Frankly, if they wanted a Civil war with both sides treated actually equally, it should be Cap leading the pro-reg and Spidey leading the Anti-reg. Both are the moral centers of the MU, and those are sides the two can be on and not necessarily be right.



Yeah, but what kind of war would Cap and Spidey really have? The Civil War would be a bit too tame if those 2 were in charge.

[Rachel Grey]

I was rabidly Anti-Reg to begin with and nothing has changed.

I still feel that 616 is mutating into 811.


Oh, and I haven't changed my sig yet either. ;)

[Conn Seanery]

Just curious but are you going keep up with the title at least?
See, this is where I thought people were reading my comments wrong. I am still very much enjoying Civil War, I just can't say i'm a pro-regger anymore.

[Conn Seanery]

That's jsut it though, they had to make Cap a total asshat that makes Ultimate Cap look warm and personable just to make the other side look like they might not be complete slimeballs.

With Cap given his normal characterization, there is *no* way he could be on the side against the government and have it be the right side.

Now, had Cap been on the pro-reg side you can argue he's just supporting his country, even if he's not entirely sure it's right, cause Cap does that some times. But for him to work against it, the idea or execution of the idea has to be crackheaded in the extreme.
Yeah, but isn't that a bit obvious? Granted, there are numerous ways they could've written the story in an interesting way to see Cap lose faith in what he was fighting for (if he was pro-reg), but it's somewhere we've been before (Cap losing faith in the government).

Cap is definitely more interesting as an anti-regger, and I don't consider it bad characterization at all. It's just a man pushed to his absolute limits, feeling ultimately betrayed by people he once thought of as friends, and his odd reactions to it all are a result of that.

Frankly, if they wanted a Civil war with both sides treated actually equally, it should be Cap leading the pro-reg and Spidey leading the Anti-reg. Both are the moral centers of the MU, and those are sides the two can be on and not necessarily be right.
I agree with that, but again, wouldn't the chips falling in that direction be sort of obvious? It's good to see these moral centers making mistakes, people are complex beings. I think this series wouldn't have been anywhere near as interesting if the key characters had taken their predictable sides in this conflict. It's much more intriguing as is, to me at least.

[yeoman]

Yeah, but isn't that a bit obvious?


Sometimes something is obvious because it's the way things should be.

I mean, calling grass green is obvious, because if I called it blue I'd have to be on some pretty heavy drugs.

It takes an extremely talented writer to write something that runs contrary to a character like this. And Millar just forced a square peg into a round hole without bothering to find a square hole.

[AceOfSpades]

Well, I was anti-reg... and now I loathe all the pro reg people. As in I am further polarized away from pro-reg.. Damn you Thor!!!! (clone)

[Conn Seanery]

Sometimes something is obvious because it's the way things should be.

I mean, calling grass green is obvious, because if I called it blue I'd have to be on some pretty heavy drugs.

It takes an extremely talented writer to write something that runs contrary to a character like this. And Millar just forced a square peg into a round hole without bothering to find a square hole.
Well, that's your opinion. Your analogy isn't allowing for the fact that the events happening, no matter how unlikely you think they are, are possible. You can't measure Cap being anti-reg against something that just isn't true (unless you account for the chance of someone spraypainting the grass blue). This PoV is just the same stubborn complaining about a failure in proper characterization that this forum's seen more than enough of. I've already said that's not my take on it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[loraxxx j zynishter]

Unlike Cap the pro-sides "questionable details" can be overturned by the Supreme Court. Personally I think clones are probably a bad idea, or even the really evil Thunderbolts team. But that is no reason to just throw out the entire act. Anything that needs to be fixed can be fixed within the legislative or judicial process.

has anyone pointed out that in order for laws to be overturned in the judicial process they must be challenged in court--and that there has been no opportunity for any such challenges since people apprehended under the new law are being sent directly to jail--in some cases being jailed in a whole other reality...

has anyone seen people being given arraignments or hearings?--has anyone other than speedball been seen talking to a lawyer?

the BILL OF RIGHTS of the us constitution prohibits the apprehension and incarceration of us citizens without due process and trial--period...

the MIRANDA LAWS, which were resently upheld by the supreme court, state that all people arrested on criminal charges by the federal gov. have right to legal representation...

the legal doctrine of HABEAS CORPUS demands that persons held by the gov. under criminal charges be easily accessible by the courts and their legal representation...

basically, the anti-reg folks are being treated like enemy combatants in time of war, but there has been no war declared by congress or anyone else--that means they are criminals, and have rights...

i'm pro-reg, because it can work--look at THE INCREDIBLES--but only if the government plays fair--what MARVEL essentially has going is a witch-hunt--one in which killing is now officially sanctioned...

i definitely do not blame CAP and his faction for resisting, just because it's legal, doesn't make the actions of the gov. moral, right or just in this case--they're acting tyrannically, and this country was founded in opposition to tyranny, both on the part of the few, and the many...

[bulbasteve]

has anyone pointed out that in order for laws to be overturned in the judicial process they must be challenged in court--and that there has been no opportunity for any such challenges since people apprehended under the new law are being sent directly to jail--in some cases being jailed in a whole other reality...*snip*

Actually in Civil War Files Stark says in She-Hulks profile "she has even signed on as defense attorney for the highly-publicized registration trial of Speedball"

So, as nice as your legal lesson was, it is going to be challanged in court :p

Edit: oh and it seems in the next issue of Frontline they are gearing up for it too...

[yeoman]

[font=Palatino Linotype][color=navy][size=3]Well, that's your opinion. Your analogy isn't allowing for the fact that the events happening, no matter how unlikely you think they are, are possible.


Well, no, not really. Cause they arn't real.

In fiction, anything can happen, yes. But when something doesn't make sense when compared to what came before it, that called bad writing.

You can't measure Cap being anti-reg against something that just isn't true (unless you account for the chance of someone spraypainting the grass blue).

I can measure it against how I know a decent story is crafted and take into account the basic structure of the world Cap runs around inside of.

This PoV is just the same stubborn complaining about a failure in proper characterization that this forum's seen more than enough of. I've already said that's not my take on it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And I find the "What's actually happening must be pure gold!" point of view as ignorant of the realities of story crafting. I'm no writing genius, but I know enough about it and have enough respect to spot something that both completely ignores what came before it and just forces the words into characters mouth regardless of what they're actual personalities are.

And since we've reached the "Your just a whiny complaining fanboy" stage of the argument, I think we're done.

[Conn Seanery]

Well, no, not really. Cause they arn't real.
Duh.

In fiction, anything can happen, yes. But when something doesn't make sense when compared to what came before it, that called bad writing.
If that's your opinion of the storyline, that's fine. But your analogy isn't designed for someone with an opinion, it's only purpose is to make you look like you're spouting facts, which you aren't.

I can measure it against how I know a decent story is crafted and take into account the basic structure of the world Cap runs around inside of.
...to form an opinion. I know you think you're right, but you're wasting your time trying to convince me (if that is what you're trying to do).

And I find the "What's actually happening must be pure gold!" point of view as ignorant of the realities of story crafting. I'm no writing genius, but I know enough about it and have enough respect to spot something that both completely ignores what came before it and just forces the words into characters mouth regardless of what they're actual personalities are.
Hey man, I was just answering the question posed by the thread-starter. You're the one that chose to try and pick it apart. If you don't like what i'm saying, you don't have to get all huffy about it. I'm fine with the characterizations, you're not. Big deal.

And since we've reached the "Your just a whiny complaining fanboy" stage of the argument, I think we're done.
That wasn't what I was saying, but you've made it clear that yours is the only opinion that matters, so I won't bother trying to convince you otherwise. Adios.

[trickster]

Yeah, but isn't that a bit obvious? Granted, there are numerous ways they could've written the story in an interesting way to see Cap lose faith in what he was fighting for (if he was pro-reg), but it's somewhere we've been before (Cap losing faith in the government).

Cap is definitely more interesting as an anti-regger, and I don't consider it bad characterization at all. It's just a man pushed to his absolute limits, feeling ultimately betrayed by people he once thought of as friends, and his odd reactions to it all are a result of that.


I agree with that, but again, wouldn't the chips falling in that direction be sort of obvious? It's good to see these moral centers making mistakes, people are complex beings. I think this series wouldn't have been anywhere near as interesting if the key characters had taken their predictable sides in this conflict. It's much more intriguing as is, to me at least.


Not only is he more interesting, but he's more appropriate as well. I'm surprised no one thought about this before (not that I've seen anyway).
But this isn't just about civil rights, it's also about The People (Captain America) vs. Big Business (Iron Man), and the Government (SHIELD) who works with it.
Captain America is the spirit of America (ie the people) vs Iron Man (who's a robber baron) and the corrupt government (I mean come on, CIA=SHIELD, Area 42 = Guantanamo). There's no way in hell you'd have him being pro registration, especially since he's lived in a different era, where the government wasn't spying on its own citizens, under pretenses like "we're fighting terrorism and paedophilia" (like there's hundreds of millions of paedophiles out there). Sorry, no matter how much I try (or anybody) tries to separate comics from reality in the case of Civil War it just can't be done completely. Besides, Iron Man is an arms dealer, he's most likely doing lucrative business with the Government now (Halliburton, was it?). Besides, even if his heart were in the right place, with the alternative to working for the government being having all his fortune confiscated by said government, he doesn't really have much choice.
And as for Spiderman being a leader, seriously. He's not that kind of guy. Sure he'll fight if he has to and quite fiercely, but he's not exactly a strong, alpha male leader type like Nick Fury, Captain America, Namor, Magneto, Emma Frost, or insert other leaders here (can't think of any others). And I don't see him taking the first step. Hell, Maria Hill has bigger "balls" than him, and she's a woman.

[Jeff-E]

I've been saying this alot lately, I'm pro-reg, I've been pro-reg since the begining. However though I am Pro, I no longer support the portrayal of the people on this side of the fence. Goliath's death was just as much his own fault as it was CloneThor's. But with everything else mixed in I can't defend the pro side as I once did, however I won't be switching to the anti side either. The question is no longer "Are you Pro, or Anti, registration?" its officially become "Are you Evil, or mentally challenged?"

[Spidaman]

Ok, I've been on the anti registration side the whole time.

I just got one question was that Hobgoblin that I seen at the end of issue #4?

[bulbasteve]

Ok, I've been on the anti registration side the whole time.

I just got one question was that Hobgoblin that I seen at the end of issue #4?

That guy is Taskmaster

[Alan2099]

The question is no longer "Are you Pro, or Anti, registration?" its officially become "Are you Evil, or mentally challenged?"
or just anti-registration :p

[mattspideyrocks!]

I haven't switched sides yet but as soon as Spidey switches, I'm there. Really, I see both sides of this war. I just lean a little towards the side that has Spidey on it. :D

[Spidaman]

That guy is Taskmaster Damn, I was hoping it would be hobgoblin making a come back.

[Peeps]

i was anti reg to start and anti reg still. mind you i am only buying the main title and no tie ins, but i have a few keen untainted observations here


Cap - people who are saying he isnt showing an emotional side to goliaths death. cap is first and formost, a soldier, the minute he shows emotion or remorse, then the other side has a major foothold. i relate this to joss whedon on angel, when they left cordy in the hotel and they went underground. everyone asked how angel could be so cold and just leave her, but he knew to win the battle he had to make a hard choice. thats what cap is doing, his putting his personal beliefs before his personal feelings. he doesnt have time for people who are second guessing their own and his moves.

ironman - if you dont think he has been manipulating spiderman, then you are insane. the fact that he admitted to using data collected from the armor to note the spidersense should alone tell you that. he definately manipulated pete into revealing his identity. peter looks up to stark as a scientist and stark used that to get what stark wanted.

hank - i think he is feeling he is definately on the wrong side now. the death of his friend will haunt him alot longer than it will reed or stark. hank has been alot of the things, hero, villian and wife beater, but murderer i think is something that he wont be able to deal with too well.

reed - his brother in law is fighting for his life and he cant be bothered cause hes working on the life plans for stark. yea, like someone said, great father and husband right there huh? all reed is worried about is the next patent for the next scientific breakthrough he has. just read sues note, please find the time for the children that you never seem to have (paraphrasing here, cant remember the exact lines). reed is a scientist first, an inventor second, a hero third, an adventurer fourth, and a husband/father fifth and sixth

sue - defection is key here. she does believe the registration is a good thing, but the way they have gone about it is completely wrong. she knows that when she signed up that she had to support her husband, but then you can look at it as the wife who was a-ok with her husbands 40 extramarital affairs, but the 41st one is the one that made her see the light. i am sure she will add a bit of flavor and reasoning to caps side.


overall, i would say this series is every bit as good as the original secret war, albeit harder to follow most of the plot points without buying all the tie ins

[bulbasteve]

ironman - if you dont think he has been manipulating spiderman, then you are insane. the fact that he admitted to using data collected from the armor to note the spidersense should alone tell you that. he definately manipulated pete into revealing his identity. peter looks up to stark as a scientist and stark used that to get what stark wanted.

He had mentioned the spidey sense to Stark as recently as The Other, even going so far as explaining what it is for the millionth time. That was just a dumb retcon....at least Iron Man acting like he does has some sort of reason other than amnesia...