When Good Marvel series " Fail "

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Its a fact of life more or less. Whatever is great or good in comics will ultimately fall in taste and quaility. This as Network Tv people call " Jumping the Shark " so to speak. In this thread we look at possible reasons like someone leaving a series too soon . A writer staying on too long ect ect.


Avengers ( Vol.1) 1963-1996: The Roger Stern Years

Roger Stern's name comes up a lot. His run on The Avengers was one of the best in the 1980's. His team seemed to flow with characters like Hercules , the female Captain Marvel , Captain America , Wasp , Namor and Vision.

So what could make this legend be fired ? The decision as we know came down to the late Mark Gruenwald who wanted Stern to humilate the female Captain Marvel and make Captain America the leader of the Avengers. In Stern's run 227-288 he had pretty much elevated the female Captain Marvel up the ladder of The Avengers and he found it to be a travesty to do that to the characters expense.

Those who followed Stern seemed to really have no clue what the hell made The Avengers...the Avengers. The writers read like a list " who's who " in comics. You had Ralph Macchio ( not the Karate Kid ) , Walt Siminson and John Byrne. After those arcs really produced nothing that springs to mind , the series fell to Bob Harras.

Harris to his credit....tried. He really settled the series down into a well ironed cast and tried to push the team against harder serious enemies. The best part of Harras's run was in fact the " Operation Galatic Storm " issue where the Avengers West Coast decide the Supreme Intelligence of the Kree must die for its genocide.

But thats about it. The period Harras wrote in is considered a low point coming off what Roger Stern did and the series got mocked by many calling it as an attempt to make the team X-Menish in a way.


Incredible Hulk ( Vol.2) 1999-Current: The Bruce Jones years

When Bruce Jones came on Incredible Hulk he decided the series needed a new vibe. He was following a superb run by Paul Jenkins where Bruce Banner nearly died by Lou Gehrigs disease. So he had went with an X-Files style vibe for the Hulk.

Banner was being chased by this " Agency " and Mr.Blue would contact Banner by computer. Giving him little hints and all to hide. The agents after Banner would talk to someone who all you could see had big lips on screen.

The supporting cast was even scary now. Leonard Samson was sporting an eye-patch looking for his son with this mysterious woman. Betty was brought back to life it seemed as she had a new body. Bruce got involved with a new woman as well.

But along the way Bruce Jones failed at one thing. His run really would never deliver the ending fans wanted on said storyline. So for 43 issues he did the same stories with little resolution. A lot of fans gave up on it and walked away and Jones ruined a fantastic 20 issue run by staying too long and stretching out his storylines of conspiracies .

Hell I have no clue if his run even ended . I believe its said that Peter David even retconned Jones's run from what Wipidia has said. So what does that tell you ?

[mattbib]

The best part of Harras's run was in fact the " Operation Galatic Storm " issue where the Avengers West Coast decide the Supreme Intelligence of the Kree must die for its genocide.FYI, that's not really what happened. It was an even mix of Avengers from each coast who murdered the Surpreme Intelligence.

[StoneGold]

FYI, that's not really what happened. It was an even mix of Avengers from each coast who murdered the Surpreme Intelligence.
In fact, it was Harras' pet character, Black Knight, that did the dirty deed.

[Hush Little Batman]

You're asking us to list comics we felt "Jumped the Shark (as in losing creativity) or are you asking us to post storyarcs that went nowhere after promising starts? Because the two examples you posted aren't really JTS moments. Stern was a victim of editorial and Jones, well yeah, that could be a JTS situation if you can find the exact instance when the series /story lost its way.

Anyway, the series I thought "jumped the shark" was Rising Stars by J. Michael Straczynski.

For those who haven't read it, here's a small snippet from wikipedia (in italics):

The story is narrated by the last living Special in the future, John Simon aka Poet. The story starts when the Specials are all grown up, but it constantly flashes back to when they were children. Through these flashbacks, the development of these 113 Specials is shown, starting with the government's monitoring and handling of the events, to the manifestation of their powers, to the impact of these abilities on the afflicted children and the world around them. Some of the Specials use their powers for the good of the world, others for personal benefit and fame, whilst others simply wish to forget about them and live a normal life.

While John was investigating a series of murders in Specials' community, he learned that when Specials died, their "force" would transfer to the remaining Specials, making each more powerful. Turns out that Jason Miller, aka Flagg, the most powerful of all Specials, was the one committing the murders for his own selfish gain. As the Specials were hiding out from the U.S. Government in a Colorado compound, the military attacked and killed more - thereby causing the "force" to be transferred into the survivors, who only got stronger and harder to kill.

It was a fantastic set-up and the way things were going, I thought that by the time it was over, Rising Stars was going to be hailed alongside Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns as a true comic classic and just like them, RS wasn't an ongoing series (24 issues) so it would definitely have a beginning, middle and end. JMS would tell the story he wanted to tell and then stop rather than trying to keep it fresh and new for 300 issues; but sadly, he didn't deliver. :(

IMO, the series "jumped" with the first issue of the second series (#9) when it was revealed that shortly after the Colorado massacre, a Special named Critical Maas had taken control of the city of Chicago for the last ten years! Among other developments that were stupid:

Critical Maas was revealed as the one who was behind the murders. Via mind control, she had taken control of Flaag and used him to kill other Specials so her own power would increase.

After fighting Matthew Bright at the end of Vol. 1, Poet disappeared for ten years and none of his friends, not Ravenshadow or his great love Chandra, visited him once even though he was easily accessable, IIRC. Ravenshadow visited him finally, just as Vol. 2 began.

Matthew remained in a coma for ten years and woke up in Vol. 2, which was pretty convenient.

Sanctuary, the son of a televangelist, was revealed to be a Transvestite and dressed up in woman's clothes before sacrificing himself to stop a bomb or something (a cross-dressing Special wasn't a bad idea; it was JMS's execution of the idea that was flawed).

Ravenclaw was revealed to be Poet's step brother.

There was a whole lot of stuff that went wrong in Vol. 2, which is ashame because for eight glorious issues, Rising Stars was tremendous.

[Jmacq1]

Anyway, the series I thought "jumped the shark" was Rising Stars by J. Michael Straczynski.

Gotta disagree there. "Rising Stars" was hampered more by the scheduling getting blown all to heck, and the rotating artists as the series went on.

The story, when taken as a whole, is still excellent, IMHO.

[pmpknface]

Bruce Jones got pushed off quickly when they got Peter David to come back. Just like Dan Jurgens had to finish his run on THOR earlier than he wanted to beause Marvel wanted to do the Ragnarock story before Dissassembeled.

[Expletive Deleted]

Marvel series, fellas.

[RabidWolfe]

Hell I have no clue if his run even ended . I believe its said that Peter David even retconned Jones's run from what Wipidia has said. So what does that tell you ?

Yeah - in PAD's Hulk arc, Nightmare claims he's been messing with Banner's mind for the past few months. Then in the Hulk: Destruction mini-series, Hulk makes a reference to his fighting with the Abomination and sleeping with the abomo-wife, and the Abomination replies: "I have no idea what you are talking about" and then the Hulk says "I though so. Stupid Nightmare."

[Hush Little Batman]

Marvel series, fellas.

He didn't create a topic like this for Image/Independent comics, so I felt this was the bet place to reply. If he does, go ahead and delete both of my posts in here (I saved the one above). :)

[Joe Rice]

Yeah - in PAD's Hulk arc, Nightmare claims he's been messing with Banner's mind for the past few months. Then in the Hulk: Destruction mini-series, Hulk makes a reference to his fighting with the Abomination and sleeping with the abomo-wife, and the Abomination replies: "I have no idea what you are talking about" and then the Hulk says "I though so. Stupid Nightmare."

Boy, that Peter David sure is classy.

[Sean Walsh]

Bruce Jones got pushed off quickly when they got Peter David to come back. Just like Dan Jurgens had to finish his run on THOR earlier than he wanted to beause Marvel wanted to do the Ragnarock story before Dissassembeled.

The thing with both those series is that they went -- on -- for -- so -- long -- that really the blame should be evenly placed with the editorial decision to kick them off when they did and the writers themselves going on and on and not wrapping things up quicker.......so that when the end finally came because Marvel wanted to change direction, the endings seemed too quick and abbreviated.

[pmpknface]

I hear ya, and agree w/ most of it. But if you're a writer and your told you have all the time you need and get 3/4 of a way through an EPIC and then are told you have 3 issues left, that's just not your fault. I think Jurgens was done by issue 77 or so (?) and was planning to go on until about 100.

I was really enjoying that book too... :(

[Ivan Isaacs]

So what does that tell you ?

That Peter David is an ignorant ass.

I really liked Bruce Jones' run on the Hulk mainly because the Hulk itself was rarely seen (I don't really like the Hulk and it made his appearances more special. I liked that) and it had a darker, meaner attitude.
Sure, a lot of fans were pissed because (like Jurgens did with Thor) he moved the franchise forward and told something new, intriguing, instead of same old, same old, boring stuff like Hulk smashing things (*YAWN*).
But yeah, Jones was shy on revelations/resolutions, but it left me hooked (maybe because I read his run via TPBs and thus could enjoy more of it at once).
And along came his 2 last arcs. Utter crap. Barely readable (not to mention that snoozefest "Hard Knocks"). So yeah, he should've moved on earlier and not destroy what was the best run on "Hulk" since David's initial run.
But still I really liked the atmosphere, the vibe, the setting and the support cast of the book. Truly unique and entertaining.
David's second run was a lackluster and contained everything I dislike in the Hulk and I dropped the book after Daniel Way's short arc.

[pmpknface]

David's second run was a lackluster and contained everything I dislike in the Hulk and I dropped the book after Daniel Way's short arc.

Dude, Way's writing the WHOLE PLANET HULK deal. And it's DAMN GOOD! :D

But I'm with you on the other stuff.

[Nevets F]

Isn't Greg Pak writing Planet Hulk?

[pmpknface]

OK, see... this is what happens when you try to work and post on 12 message boards at the same time. You mix up little things 3-lettered last names. :D

He did the "prequel" part that was HULK vs. the satellite. That's another reason I get confused...

Thank you Inferno!

[Frank]

I did not have a problem with Bruce Jones`Hulk run. He restored the character/concept from the gutter of repetition to one of the best suspence book i`ve ever read. He made characters that hadn`t been interesting since the 70s like The Abomination and Absorbing Man. Best of all was his restoration of the Leader...heck the whole conspiracy from day one was revealed to be the work of the Leader in the last issue by Jones, you cannot do better to a character than this! I know people were annoyed that we didn`t see enough of the Hulk and so forth by this attempt had to be done. It had to return to the basic of having great writing before going all super-hero. If Jones`run hadn`t happen we would never have been so excited to have Hulk cut lose on the present run with Grek Pack and Planet Hulk.

Personaly the series that jumped the shark was Supreme Squadron. It was so great as Supreme Power because it took the time to spend time with the individual characters-especially Hyperion. Now it`s too much time spent on the team mission and it`s too similar to the Ultimates.

[Scavenger]

Boy, that Peter David sure is classy.


PAD was given orders from above. Blame the editors/JoeyQ.

[Scavenger]

Yeah - in PAD's Hulk arc, Nightmare claims he's been messing with Banner's mind for the past few months. Then in the Hulk: Destruction mini-series, Hulk makes a reference to his fighting with the Abomination and sleeping with the abomo-wife, and the Abomination replies: "I have no idea what you are talking about" and then the Hulk says "I though so. Stupid Nightmare."

As I mentioned, PAD was given orders from above...of course, Destruction is now out of continuity, so who knows what's up anymore.

[Kevinroc]

Isn't Greg Pak writing Planet Hulk?

Yes. Greg Pak is writing the Planet Hulk arc in Incredible Hulk.

[Joe Rice]

PAD was given orders from above. Blame the editors/JoeyQ.

"I was only following orders."

[Young Avenger]

I have a trade from Bruce Jones Hulk run and I'm was plesantly surpraise on how good it was. It had drama, suspense, cool plot twists. Something I would like to read in a Hulk comic.

[Young Avenger]

As I mentioned, PAD was given orders from above...of course, Destruction is now out of continuity, so who knows what's up anymore.

Where was it ever said that Destruction is out of continuity?

[Michael P]

Bruce Jones got pushed off quickly when they got Peter David to come back. Just like Dan Jurgens had to finish his run on THOR earlier than he wanted to beause Marvel wanted to do the Ragnarock story before Dissassembeled.
Doesn't matter. Jones never had an ending to begin with.

[Kid Kyoto]

Marvel series, fellas.

you realize policies like that make it darn hard to compare series that happen to be by different publishers.

[Expletive Deleted]

Yep. I just don't care.

[Cephus]

Gotta disagree there. "Rising Stars" was hampered more by the scheduling getting blown all to heck, and the rotating artists as the series went on.

The story, when taken as a whole, is still excellent, IMHO.

Until you got to the last page with the alien kids playing baseball, of course.

[Frank]

Doesn't matter. Jones never had an ending to begin with.

Well he did one. And it made sens that The Leader was the guy behind all of it.

[Hush Little Batman]

Generation X.

It was co-created in 1994 by Scott Lobdell and Chris Bachalo and it was a pretty good book with all kinds of intriguing plotlines - What was the story behind Penance? What, if any, was her connection to Emplate? What was the deal with M? Where were they going with Jubilee's developing feelings for Synch?

It was good stuff and it didn't require 30+ years of X-knowledge; and then there was the added bonus of the team being based out of Massachusetts so it stood on its own and separate from all the other X-books. Sales were good and it was one of the most popular X-titles, but the moment Lobdell left (issue #28), it went downhill immediately. Subsequent writers had no idea what to do with the characters and came up with inane plot resolutions to Lobdell's plots. The quality and popularity of the title fell before it reached it's 50th issue and it was then included in the Warren Ellis "Counter-X" line, but by that point, no one really cared about it anymore. It was eventually canceled with issue #75.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Uncanny X-Men #444-#474 : The 2nd Claremont run

When Chris Claremont returned to Uncanny the 2nd time many were excited. He was gonna play up the X.S.E plot he started in X-Treme and had the team face The Fury. Of course in no time he ended up falling off the rails and fast.

Fans of his like to claim that Editoral f-cked him up. But again , the story-arc with Jamie Braddock dragged and limped along for 2 years. He'd show up and do really nothing til the end. When it was revealed the First Foursaken was some big cosmic entity that rivaled the Pheionix you wondered how this poor jackass managed to gain these powers.

Claremont should have pushed up the " End of Gray's " arc and ended his run at #460 or #465 to save people time on that. His run went south after the Savage Land arc so that should have been a warning on his 2nd run on the series.

[X-Factor]

New X-Men #20-present Childhood (and Quality's) End

A point where many fans jumped ship or jumped aboard, I maintain the feeling that Chris Yost and Craig Kyle's run on New X-Men[/b] have turned the book into your average slasher flick comic book.

While the initial writers did drop the ball somewhat with the New Mutants change to New X-Men, this latest creative team have put several nails into the coffin. Rather than continuing development for these children, a majority of them are now dead, in circumstances that are pretty farfetched. The X-Men have been shown to be incompetent and the mansion completely unsafe (interestingly enough, Willaim Stryker's goons thought only the mutant boy with a porcupine ability was more threatening than any of the countless adults at the Institute). While the students of the previous team have dropped like flies, series writer's creation X-23 seems to have found safety and a spot on the team despite questionable circumstances.

I equal the change to Liefield's run on [i]New Mutants--it may sell more now (approx. 5,000 copies last I heard), but it is not something I see being held in high regard in the future.

Now the students are facing Nimrod who was a threat the grown X-Men could hardly defeat. Do not worry though, another death is in the solicits.

[Omega Alpha]

New X-Men #20-present Childhood (and Quality's) End

A point where many fans jumped ship or jumped aboard, I maintain the feeling that Chris Yost and Craig Kyle's run on New X-Men[/b] have turned the book into your average slasher flick comic book.

While the initial writers did drop the ball somewhat with the New Mutants change to New X-Men, this latest creative team have put several nails into the coffin. Rather than continuing development for these children, a majority of them are now dead, in circumstances that are pretty farfetched. The X-Men have been shown to be incompetent and the mansion completely unsafe (interestingly enough, Willaim Stryker's goons thought only the mutant boy with a porcupine ability was more threatening than any of the countless adults at the Institute). While the students of the previous team have dropped like flies, series writer's creation X-23 seems to have found safety and a spot on the team despite questionable circumstances.

I equal the change to Liefield's run on [i]New Mutants--it may sell more now (approx. 5,000 copies last I heard), but it is not something I see being held in high regard in the future.

Now the students are facing Nimrod who was a threat the grown X-Men could hardly defeat. Do not worry though, another death is in the solicits.

I agree, it was not enough that most of the students were depowered, C&C had to begin to kill them all, including those who were depowered, and make every single X-men look incompetent. And finally, he puts Nimrod, the closest the X-men would have of Ultron, to face half a dozen of unexperienced children, and will make them win... not before kill another one.

[Leebenhouse]

Deadpool Vol. 1 Joe Kelly run

When T-Ray was revealed to be Wade Wilson and Deadpool was revealed to be... some guy.

I thought that sucked. It makes me glad that nobody has really touched on that since, unless Fab Nic has in the current DP/Cable series.

[fishtaco]

Uncanny X-Men, when Whilce Portacio and Jim Lee took over on writing. Art was pretty, though.

Excalibur, when Lobdell took over.

[overcomebyfumes]

What to you say about a run that is a critical failure - say, Bendis' Disassembled/New Avengers fiasco (which has so many things wrong with it from a "literary criticism" standpoint that I can't even begin to count) - yet it's financial success has revitalized interest in the title?

It sucks, everyone complains about it, but people buy it. I buy it. I buy it and then complain about it. Sometimes I think the only reason I buy it is so that I can complain about it.

I really didn't read the Avengers before Bendis' run, but starting about the time the second or third issue of "Disassembled" appeared, I realized how much I love the Avengers, and I've picked up all the Busiek issues, I've bought the Avengers Masterworks so I can read the early Avengers, I've bought every available Avengers TPB (even tracking down some rare ones on eBay) and I've recently purchaced the Avengers DVD-ROM.

I love the Avengers now thanks to Bendis. The only problem is, I completely and utterly hate the way Bendis writes the Avengers.

I won't go into the specific resons why, because I'll be typing for hours. But I'm sure if you've read one anti-Bendis-on-New-Avengers rant you've read them all. (and it's not like I have a hate-on for Bendis; I think his run on Daredevil was absolutely brillant).

Am I insane? I am starting to think that I am. Why can't I drop this book?

Pax.

[overcomebyfumes]

Perfect example of how a series off to a good start can fail utterly:

Ghost Rider Vol. 2 (1990)

Ghost Rider never was able to catch a break. The design of the Ghost Rider character is probably one of the best visual character designs of any comic book hero ever, cool "rooted-in-seventies-Satanism" origin... lame, lame, LAME execution. Ghost Rider and lame kinda go together like too much Froot Loops and the sugar shakes, and that's coming from a Ghost Rider FAN.

The first series limped through eighty-one issues before cancellation in 1983. In 1990, Marvel dusted off the character and decided to have another go. The series started with great promise - new alter-ego, new bike, gritty urban feel, chains, the penance stare. The early issues, while good, wern't fantastic, but things were gradually improving issue after issue. Sales were up.

Then sales were TOO far up. Ghost Rider was suddenly everywhere. Stories crossed over into Amazing Spider-Man (vs. Venom) and the X-Men (vs. the Brood (WTF??)). A whole line of Ghost Rider clone books (the Midnight Sons) was created, and huge crossovers spanning the whole line became the norm. The quality of writing gradually began sliding downhill. The series suffered from a complete lack of any believable or memorable villians, as well as Ghost Rider's very own Venom rip-off, Vengence. Add foil glow-in-the-dark cover variants, and you've a recipie for disaster.

I guess at some point, sales started dropping, because the Midnight Sons line folded, titles cancelled one after the other until, at last, only Ghost Rider was left. The natural response of any editor to this situation is "how can we get sales to go up again?" The unfortunate answer in this case - "Let's randomly change stuff!!"

You do not get sales to go up by screwing with the look of a visually dynamic character. Ghost Rider traded in his black spiked leather jacket for a red jumpsuit. The art style went from gritty-realistic to anime-esque. The writers changed ever other issue. Many of these issues were completely unreadable, they were so bad. I think I may actually have been physically hurt by one or two of them.

Sales plummeted further, naturally. Ok, time to put GR back in black, and let's try re-vamping the origin. It was too little, too late. By the time the series finally bit it again in 1998, Ghostie, in a fit of desperately bad writing, had managed to become the King of Hell.

Will there ever be a non-lame Ghost Rider run? We can only hope. Someday... Someday...

Pax.

[Hush Little Batman]

You do not get sales to go up by screwing with the look of a visually dynamic character. Ghost Rider traded in his black spiked leather jacket for a red jumpsuit.

I remember that. It was designed by Adam "my crappy artwork looks rushed even when it's not" Pollina.

[Alan2099]

All my freinds always referred to that costume as being Ghostrider's clown suit.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

All my freinds always referred to that costume as being Ghostrider's clown suit.


In my Marvel in the 1990's threads I pretty much called it the Clown suit Ghost Rider as well. Hell the series was cancelled and they advertised a #94 . I'm pretty sure they wanted #100 issues but the sales were that damn bad. ;)

[Darkjoe1990]

Tell me about it. I enjoyed Ghost Rider's 90's series up to the end of the missing link arc, the Crossovers that helped build it killed it though. They made every supernatural character in marvel look like a fool after that arc. Thats because about 6 isues after it they had another huge MS (midnight sons) crossover based on the premise that the MS did not proberly clean up after themselves and rehashed for 18 isshues. GR has one of the worst rouges gallerys since She-hulk to just replace Titana with Mephesto. I didnt even stay on long enough for the red suit you guys are talking about?

[Hush Little Batman]

I didnt even stay on long enough for the red suit you guys are talking about?

Gaze upon this and puke.

http://img136.imagevenue.com/loc413/th_40866_Ghost_rider_vol_2_80_122_413lo.jpg (http://img136.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=40866_Ghost_rider_vol_2_80_122_413lo .jpg)