Are Rachel Grey Fans OBLIGATED to Like Sage (and Vice Versa)?

[Novaya Havoc]

I mean, really.

It's like SAGEANDRACHELGREY. Two characters I cannot stand, yet most people I see, if they like one, they LOOOOVE the other.

Can someone explain to me the basis of this "domestic partnership"? I don't quite understand it. If you love Sage, do you love RACHELGREY too? And vice versa? Or am I crazy?

And while you're bored, take the poll.

[Hi-Fi]

Uh, duh. They're both like, the coolest EVER!!

[Gene M.]

Like one, hate the other.

I like Rachel Grey in as much as I don't particuarly dislike her, but I'm not ruining my shorts over her either.

Sage makes me all like *BARF BARF BARF* every time I see her.

[Hi-Fi]

I hate Rachel. I find Sage amusing in not a very good way.

[Nyssane]

Why isn't there a "they both suck" option?

[Deus ex Chris]

So my answer is totally complicated. I really don't like either character, especially under Chris Claremont, but I don't mind Ed Brubaker's Rachel and I f---ing fanboygasmed over Grant Morrison's Sage, because he was obviously having some fun with her lame-ass powers, so I picked the third option, which really isn't accurate but none were. :confused:

[xmanson]

Honey, in the end of the day, no matter the results, Dazzler still is loser.

[Hi-Fi]

Why isn't there a "they both suck" option?

Uh, duh. They're both like, the coolest EVER!!

[Deus ex Chris]

Honey, in the end of the day, no matter the results, Dazzler still is loser.
I so imagine you saying this with a Russian accent.

[xakko]

I like Rachel. She was part of the team when I jumped on, she has one of the saddest backstories in comics, she was part of a really fun run in Excalibur, and she doesn't like Emma, with just cause. Not to mention being her mother's daughter, which is always a plus.

I don't like Sage particularly. Where Rachel is emotional, Sage is, by definition, not. She has been used mostly as a plot device. She was more interesting for me as Tessa.

I think your premise is completely flawed, as you lump in two characters you dislike and assume that others would equate the two somehow.

the early returns in the thread seem to indicate otherwise.

[Novaya Havoc]

Why isn't there a "they both suck" option?

That's option #1, ironically.

[xmanson]

I so imagine you saying this with a Russian accent.


Why? Did you smell vodka in my breath?

Damn, where are my mints?

[Hi-Fi]

Why? Did you smell vodka in my breath?

Damn, where are my mints?

O que aconteceu com o MBB? Não consigo mais acessar...:confused:

[Alan2099]

I like Racheal (although I liked her better as Phoenix) and Sage (to me at least) seems to have slightly less personality than Cyclops's visor.

[rilokyle]

I've come to like Rachel, ever since the End of Grey's arc, but not to the extreme or anything. I just think she's decently cool.

As for Sage? I. Don't. Give. A. ***BEEP***

[slayer2005]

Rachel's okay.

Sage, on the other hand, is one of the characters I don't give a damn about.

[xmanson]

I've come to like Rachel, ever since the End of Grey's arc, but not to the extreme or anything. I just think she's decently cool.

As for Sage? I. Don't. Give. A. ***BEEP***


Watch your language, mister/lady/no-idea!!!

This place is fucked up.

Vodka, anyone?

[Flameworthy]

I actually like Sage. She's only seemed like a plot device in UXM and NEX. She was better in X-Treme.

Then, there's Rachel, who I hate with a passion. She's an unorginal and lame, Jean Grey replacement. All she's ever done in her entire comic book history is mooch off Jean. Ugh, I can't stand her.

[fishtaco]

No, Phoenix fans aren't obligated to like Saga and vice versa. :rolleyes:

[tetragene]

I hate them both...but on a good day Rachel is vastly more tolerable than Sage.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I love Rachel Summers and I don't particularly like Sage.

[Syzygy]

Part of the problem with these characters--in my opinion, of course--is that when Claremont has a favorite, he tends to be very heavy-handed in how he presents them. We're literally hit over the head with, for example, how unbreakable Sage's will is, about how supra-competent she is.

If Chris wanted Tessa to join the X-Men, he should have ditched all the continuity-contradicting super-spy stuff and just had her defect. With a computer-brain, she could have played much the same role with the X-Men that Brainiac does with the Legion; solving problems and mysteries, devoid of all the cold-hearted super-killer black widow stuff. This could have been an interesting character.

Never liked his Rachel either. Like Sage, she always seemed too inhuman, but from the opposite extreme, all reckless passion and emotion. Later, she became the venerable Mother Askani, but this interesting character was retconned away to make her into a rather boring young woman again. In Xtreme, she couldn't even walk in high heels, even though in Excalibur vol. 1, she could run and fight in them!

Maybe part of the problem, too, is that for both, their backstories are so convoluted, it's hard to really know who they are. Tessa, supposedly, was Xavier's spy, yet the Hellfire Club always took the X-Men by surprise. What's going on with that? Rachel, supposedly, is the "true Phoenix", but if so, she's an alien creature no more human than Galactus. Why should I care?

I'm looking forward to seeing Brubaker and Teiri handle each character...although I mightily wish Sage's contradictions would be meta-retconned away.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Deus ex Chris]

although I mightily wish Sage's contradictions would be meta-retconned away.
She should delete them with her computer mind. Or she could have Bishop reboot her again.

I love Grant Morrison!

[kate-pryde]

I adore Rachel. I don't mind Sage, but she's not particularly one of my favorite characters.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

I mean, really.

It's like SAGEANDRACHELGREY. Two characters I cannot stand, yet most people I see, if they like one, they LOOOOVE the other.

Can someone explain to me the basis of this "domestic partnership"? I don't quite understand it. If you love Sage, do you love RACHELGREY too? And vice versa? Or am I crazy?

And while you're bored, take the poll.


Again youre just jealous that Dazzler looks like a dude...

[Babylon23]

What a strange poll.

Anyway, obligated? Not particularly. Infact, I don't see any connection between the two. I like both characters for different reasons. I don't know why people group these two characters together, except that they've recently served on the Uncanny team together.

I'm not quite sure where I should vote on the poll. All the positive options are a bit sarcastic.

[Deus ex Chris]

Again youre just jealous that Dazzler looks like a dude...
Have you ever seen Rachel? She just discovered "girl" cuts.

[Novaya Havoc]

Again youre just jealous that Dazzler looks like a dude...

Meh. Beats this.
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/889/micromepsy3cs.png

[Daithi]

I like Rachel but am ambivalent about Sage nowadays. Sage was great in XXM though.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Hell no!

I like Rachel a lot. I have always found her to be a fascinating character, with a great deal of potential.

But Sage?

Man I hate Sage. The sketchiest set of powers, and seemingly the solution to any problem Claremont doesn't know how to solve.

She's boring, and frankly get's right on my tits!:mad:

[creaky]

Meh. Beats this.
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/889/micromepsy3cs.png

*dies* I will never be the same again.

[creaky]

Part of the problem with these characters--in my opinion, of course--is that when Claremont has a favorite, he tends to be very heavy-handed in how he presents them. We're literally hit over the head with, for example, how unbreakable Sage's will is, about how supra-competent she is.(...)



Yes! Claremont luuvs his Sage and his Storm and his Wolverine and his Psylocke. Or at least he loves their powers, because any hints of them being actual people are being drowned in Virtues and Awesomeness. Man. I want to get paid to write Mary Sues too!

I semi-like Rachel. She at least comes off as more human than Sage, but it's strange to me that her time in Excalibur almost seems to have been retconned somehow. She should be more experienced, more mature what with everything she's been through. Or at least emotionally screwed up, traumatized, disturbed on some deep level, but what we get is your average teenager. Here's hoping Brubaker makes her interesting, but I doubt it.

[Rachel Grey]

Honey, in the end of the day, no matter the results, Dazzler still is loser.

Quoted for Truth.

Ya know, I used to like Dazzler, but NH has totally turned me off her.

As for the actual question. I love Rachel and I think Sage is kinda cool.

[Sentinel K]

I don't hate any X-Characters. They all have things I like about them.

I like both Rachel and Sage. But I don't see any reason why if you like one you HAVE to like the other. It's not like they're linked in any special way.

I actually think (and i KNOW I'm in a minority here) taht Sage is a pretty cool character. I know she's become a bit of a deus ex machina with her ill-defined powers but I dig her personality. Or lack of one. Her Bogan tatoos make her visually cool too. I'm glad Ryan started drawing them.

I would have voted in the poll but there wasn't an option for my viewpoint so.....I didn't.

[DungeonmasterJim]

Rachel's my favorite character in comics.

Sage just seems to be yet another Claremont 'I can do everything' woman excpet she's an emotionless hag.

DM Jim

[Tilt]

Quoted for Truth.

Ya know, I used to like Dazzler, but NH has totally turned me off her.
.

N.H'.s not making me hate Dazzler-I still love Dazz, just like I still love Jean even if plenty of her fans hate on Rachel. I just dislike the fan(s).

I love them both and voted as such implied sarcasm on his part or not.

I really can't understand the desire to focus so much hate on comic book characters. I don't hate any characters that much that I'd devote even one post to doing so. Not one. I like them or I don't care enough to be interested so this type of behavior has always confused me. Let alone spending so much time being so negative about something so trivial. It would be one thing if it was funny, but it doesn't seem to be to the non-fans that would enjoy it.

That being said I've spent enough of my time typing this, there are better more positive things to focus on. I'm enjoying Rachel, she's in the books for the time being despite all the hate- and that's fine with me. Hell, she's even getting an action figure.
:D

[jarrod]

I like Rachel but am ambivalent about Sage nowadays. Sage was great in XXM though.
Ditto. I really loved them all at their best though (Ray in early Uncanny/Excalibur, Xtreme Sage, Aussie Dazz).

[X-Factor]

I do not believe there is an obligatory link, but I too noticed a lot of people who really dislike one also dislikes the other. On the positive spectrum, however, I have not noticed any paralell favoritism between the two.

But yes. Yes I do dislike both. As much as one could (healthily) dislike a comic book character.

Sage at best is okay in small doses.

[Novaya Havoc]

Quoted for Truth.

Ya know, I used to like Dazzler, but NH has totally turned me off her.

As for the actual question. I love Rachel and I think Sage is kinda cool.

Hmm. If your likes and dislikes of 3rd party things are wholly contingent on your relationship with another person, that's well...

... I'll keep it to myself.

But by all means, if you're swayed that easily to liking or disliking something based on my opinions of something else entirely, then that's your perogative.

[Arrjay]

Like one, hate the other.

I like Rachel Grey in as much as I don't particuarly dislike her, but I'm not ruining my shorts over her either.

Sage makes me all like *BARF BARF BARF* every time I see her.

I'm similar except that I love Rachel Grey and I do ruin my shorts over her.

[Mikl C]

I despise Sage so very much.

[melodyrider]

I really don't know much about Sage at all, but I don't think my opinion will have anything to do with my feelings for Rachel.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Meh. Beats this.
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/889/micromepsy3cs.png

OMG how dare you post that!!! I made that as a joke!!! I would never dress up as Psylocke.:rolleyes:

[phoenixV]

Why would Rachel's fans obligated to like Sage? They have nothing in common.

[silverbolt]

ugh......I hate Rachel.
Sage on the other hand.... She freakin rocks my socks off :p

[Nevets F]

ugh......I hate Rachel.
Sage on the other hand.... She freakin rocks my socks off :p

..............you are in trouble young man!

;)

They are both great characters, but I don't see why someone has to like the other because they like one. Odd.

[AceOfSpades]

Rachel has been a strong character since she left UXM back in ish 200-something. I hated her at first

Sage was awesome in X-treme, Superb in Murder at the Mansion, but not so great in NEX.

Everyone has their ups and downs

[lament]

I don't really care for either character. :o

[Novaya Havoc]

Stop hating CC for teh win!!1

[MrSuslov]

Hmm, I have no viable option either.

Rachel Grey ought to lead the second rank of my favorite X-characters. Her mother is, has been, and always will be my favorite Marvel character, without question. To fudge a line from a Christian ritual, "As it was in the beginning, it is now and ever shall be, Jean without end, amen."

A friend of mine remarked, "You ought to love Rachel Grey: She's Jean's daughter, she's got a thing for Star Wars, and she's neither casually expendable like her mother nor married to Scott Summers." Yet, I don't care for the character. In the most recent book, I was more interested in what Lorna Dane was up to---tee hee, brain surgery---than any of the panels featuring Rachel.

Maybe it's the visual look or something; I can't really lay a finger on why I don't like her. I think it has something to do with the fact that she's gotten tagged in my mind as a pretender to the position of Phoenix. Y'know, sort of like being the coach after Woody Hayes, Bear Bryant, or whoever replaces Joe Paterno. No matter how good they are in their own right, they're measured against the one who went before them, and there's no way Rachel Grey can win that contest. It isn't necessarily fair to her, but that's the way it is.

Sage, on the other hand, simply doesn't register on my consciousness of the X-universe. I'm more likely to think of the 1950s USAF computer system than the character when I see the mention.

[Omega Alpha]

Why would Rachel's fans obligated to like Sage? They have nothing in common.

Except being Claremont's pet characters. But if you love Rachel, you're obligated to like Sage, so you have to be a big fan of Storm, Psylocke and Wolverine too.

[fishtaco]

Except being Claremont's pet characters. But if you love Rachel, you're obligated to like Sage, so you have to be a big fan of Storm, Psylocke and Wolverine too.I think that's pretty silly.

[X-Factor]

Hmm, I have no viable option either.

Rachel Grey ought to lead the second rank of my favorite X-characters. Her mother is, has been, and always will be my favorite Marvel character, without question. To fudge a line from a Christian ritual, "As it was in the beginning, it is now and ever shall be, Jean without end, amen."

A friend of mine remarked, "You ought to love Rachel Grey: She's Jean's daughter, she's got a thing for Star Wars, and she's neither casually expendable like her mother nor married to Scott Summers." Yet, I don't care for the character. In the most recent book, I was more interested in what Lorna Dane was up to---tee hee, brain surgery---than any of the panels featuring Rachel.

Maybe it's the visual look or something; I can't really lay a finger on why I don't like her. I think it has something to do with the fact that she's gotten tagged in my mind as a pretender to the position of Phoenix. Y'know, sort of like being the coach after Woody Hayes, Bear Bryant, or whoever replaces Joe Paterno. No matter how good they are in their own right, they're measured against the one who went before them, and there's no way Rachel Grey can win that contest. It isn't necessarily fair to her, but that's the way it is.

Sage, on the other hand, simply doesn't register on my consciousness of the X-universe. I'm more likely to think of the 1950s USAF computer system than the character when I see the mention.

Uh, duh. They're both like, the coolest EVER!!

[Rachel Grey]

I'm enjoying Rachel, she's in the books for the time being despite all the hate- and that's fine with me. Hell, she's even getting an action figure.
:D

Really? Cool!

[Omega Alpha]

I think that's pretty silly.

I meant by the logic of the person who made the thread. If Sage and Rachel have anything in common, is what i've said, and if you love one, you're MUST love the other, than you have to love the other pet characters of Claremont.

[kate-pryde]

This is crazy. No one likes a character just because a writer likes them. Rachel and Sage aren't Claremont's only favorite characters, nor are Claremont fans obligated to love absolutely everything he's done.

If Chris Claremont prefers Pepsi to Coke, does that mean his fans are obligated to only drink Pepsi?

[fishtaco]

I meant by the logic of the person who made the thread. If Sage and Rachel have anything in common, is what i've said, and if you love one, you're MUST love the other, than you have to love the other pet characters of Claremont.Yeah, and like I said before, that's silly.

[Frank]

I prefer Rachel Summers and Tessa.

[Omega Alpha]

Yeah, and like I said before, that's silly.

I agree with you. This topic is silly.

[Arrjay]

But if you love Rachel, you're obligated to like Sage, so you have to be a big fan of Storm, Psylocke and Wolverine too.

I am a living example proving the idiocy of this statement.

I love Rachel.

I hate Sage.

I hate Psylocke.

I am sick to freakin' death of Wolverine.

And I like Storm.

[fishtaco]

Come to think of it, there are so many characters who can be called "Claremont's pet characters" over the years...

Psylocke (recently)

Phoenix (mark two, recently)

Forge (he was the star of Uncanny X-Men for several months of 1990)

Wolverine (starred in Uncanny X-Men throughout his entire original run)

Storm (duh)

Nightcrawler (featured more than any other X-Man in the 70's)

Shadowcat (featured more than any other X-Man in 1981-1983)

Mirage (featured more than any other character in the earliest issues of NM)

Sage (duh)

Karma, Magma (Claremont exited them from New Mutants before Louise Simonson came on because he didn't want anyone else to touch them. He had stories planned for them that never saw print, although we saw the beginnings of Karma's story in Wolverine).

There's probably more...

[Mikl C]

I like Karma alot.

[Home made ectoplasm]

I wonder if peoples opinions have changed, because it seems from reading this thread that 12 people voted that they like Rachel Gray.

[darknessatnoon]

I love Sage.

Rachel is a moron.

[Pach!]

I wonder if peoples opinions have changed, because it seems from reading this thread that 12 people voted that they like Rachel Gray.

6 posters, 6 puppet accounts I'd imagine.

[Seres]

This is not in the spirit of Storm Week. I require a Storm-related context for this thread.

[darknessatnoon]

This is not in the spirit of Storm Week. I require a Storm-related context for this thread.

No. Go babble on about Storm in a relevant thread.

[AcesX1X]

what do sage and rachel have to do with each other anyway?

sage hates rachel, because she is the spawn of jean grey, and jean grey used to treat sage very badly.

observe:

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/53/l_8b283c9171494e358859f9fbcae4a137.jpg

[ExodusCloak]

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/839/57405780rp7.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=57405780rp7.jpg)

[Home made ectoplasm]

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/839/57405780rp7.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=57405780rp7.jpg)

If I'm interpreting this correctly, it's genius.

[jarrod]

I'm a proud member of the Claremazon Defense Force, even if Rachel was kicked outta the club for Reload. :frown:

Solidarity!

[jarrod]

Rogue loves Rachel like a sister. Rogue loves Sage like a leman.

[Kid Icarus]

Rachel Grey makes me happy
Sage I could truly care less for

[Eye in the Sky]

This is crazy. No one likes a character just because a writer likes them. Rachel and Sage aren't Claremont's only favorite characters, nor are Claremont fans obligated to love absolutely everything he's done.

If Chris Claremont prefers Pepsi to Coke, does that mean his fans are obligated to only drink Pepsi?

I just want to see Rachel Grey get raped more. That's all I ask.

[Home made ectoplasm]

If anyone does have any inside information as to CC's soft drink preferences please post here. Thanks in advance.

[Joe Acro]

I want a "meh" option.

[bebopeva88]

I loathe both Rachel Grey and Sage.

[jarrod]

I just want to see Rachel Grey get raped more. That's all I ask.
Well, she is Scott's daughter. Maybe they can alternate monthly rape scenes?

[Psycwave]

I <3 Sage ferociously.
But I loathe R'chel. She needs to become space debris.

But I think its supposed to be like if you love Psylocke then you also love Sage. R'chel has no place in this.

[The Black Guardian]

I don't think there's any obligation, but I do love both.

Mind you, I haven't liked Rachel since she came back from the distant future with Gaunt. I absolutely adored Rachel back in the day when she was Phoenix. I think she made a much better Phoenix than Jean Grey ever has. However, I'd rather Rachel be dead than see her with that Shi'ar geek with the popsicle sword again.

Honey, in the end of the day, no matter the results, Dazzler still is loser.
ROFL!

[Bingo!]

I <3 Sage ferociously.
But I loathe R'chel. She needs to become space debris.

But I think its supposed to be like if you love Psylocke then you also love Sage. R'chel has no place in this.

Nope, not necessarily.

I love Miss Braddock, but I hate the mess her character endured throughout the Uncanny 300s. I'm choosing not to read what Claremont is putting her and Sage through. It almost as big a disaster as dino Rachel.

That said, I tend to like all the psi women. Jean, Emma, Betsy, Rachel, Sage and the Cuckoos. They all have wildly different personalities and writers love to victimize them. What's not to like?

As for being obligated to like Sage? No, I'm not. Though, I only appreciate her due to darknessatnoon being a huge fan and sharing his love with the rest of us. Once she free of Claremont I'll reassess my feelings

[frog]

What's with all the dredging up of threads that died of natural causes long ago?


Oh. It's Halloween, so it's a homage to Re-Animator, isn't it? :tongue:

[Beni]

I kind of like Rachel.

I don't like Sage... so no I don't feel obligated :rolleyes:

[passer-by]

I like Rachel, especially in CC/Davis Excalibur.
I used to feel moderately interested in early Sage (Hellfire Club period), but she's starting to get on my nerves in New Exiles.

So option #2 for me.


Why the parallel, by the way?

[Home made ectoplasm]

Why the parallel, by the way?

The parallel is the false premise that both these characters are henious and that anybody that says they like them doesn't really, but is just doing so as a misguided show of support for CC.

[Seres]

Nobody should be obligated to like Sage.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Nobody should be obligated to like Sage.

Nobody should be obligated to like anyone.

[Seres]

Nobody should be obligated to like anyone.

Yes. Apart from Darkstar.

[MuhollandDriver]

*laughs* i can't even vote on this!

i have always wondered why there is a strong dislike for both of these characters. i read Rachel's original introduction in Uncanny way back in the day...all the way to her going off to Mojo world. i also read her in the first run of Excalibur. At the time, i found her backstory interesting....and i loved that initial Excalibur run.

i left Marvel comics when New Mutants became X-Force and the blue/gold teams happened. i returned during House of M/Quest for Magik. i missed out on Askani Rachel, Sage's retcon...etc etc. Did these characters become completely annoying during my absence?

What little i've read of Sage doesn't bother me. That is why i am perplexed! While neither character is in my top ten list, neither seem completely unlikable from what i've read.

What am i missing?

[Home made ectoplasm]

*laughs* i can't even vote on this!

i have always wondered why there is a strong dislike for both of these characters. i read Rachel's original introduction in Uncanny way back in the day...all the way to her going off to Mojo world. i also read her in the first run of Excalibur. At the time, i found her backstory interesting....and i loved that initial Excalibur run.

i left Marvel comics when New Mutants became X-Force and the blue/gold teams happened. i returned during House of M/Quest for Magik. i missed out on Askani Rachel, Sage's retcon...etc etc. Did these characters become completely annoying during my absence?

What little i've read of Sage doesn't bother me. That is why i am perplexed! While neither character is in my top ten list, neither seem completely unlikable from what i've read.

What am i missing?

Good post, you are not missing anything.

[Daithi]

What am i missing?

Facial tattoos I think :wink:

[Psycwave]

*laughs* i can't even vote on this!

i have always wondered why there is a strong dislike for both of these characters. i read Rachel's original introduction in Uncanny way back in the day...all the way to her going off to Mojo world. i also read her in the first run of Excalibur. At the time, i found her backstory interesting....and i loved that initial Excalibur run.

i left Marvel comics when New Mutants became X-Force and the blue/gold teams happened. i returned during House of M/Quest for Magik. i missed out on Askani Rachel, Sage's retcon...etc etc. Did these characters become completely annoying during my absence?

What little i've read of Sage doesn't bother me. That is why i am perplexed! While neither character is in my top ten list, neither seem completely unlikable from what i've read.

What am i missing?

A glass of wine?

[Eye in the Sky]

Sage is an abomination. Although my dislike of her would decrease were the retcon of her being the first X-Man be retconned.

[MartinRedmond]

While neither character is in my top ten list, neither seem completely unlikable from what i've read.

What am i missing?

People that have issues with women. People still ranting on about a minor character 2 years later. Incredible...

[Swashbuckler]

I loathe Rachel Grey with every fiber of my being. I wish I could get a giant stack of Rachel Grey trading cards so I could put them next to my toilet and wipe my ass with them. She's horrid and better die in this War Of Kings mess.

Sage is amazing.

[psychic_therapy]

I'm okay with both... but I don't feel "obligated" to like one because of the other.

[Anna]

Why isn't there a "they both suck" option?

Because neither sucks.