First looks: Excalibur #11, New X-Men # 30 and Wolverine Origins

[Blackcat]

First looks: Excalibur #11, New X-Men # 30 and Wolverine at: http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0609/07/marvelfirsts.htm

I was thinking on giving up on Excalibur until Claremont will return, but I must admit I love the lake scene of #11. They way Pete nags and nags, the way the team laughs and goes anyway and the trick Sage pulles on Mr. Wisdom. I love it and will not give up on Excalibur just yet.

Also like the dialoge between Prodigy and X-23 in New X-Men a lot: That's not flying, she is so damn funny and sarcastic. I love the scene with Anole and Col. Reyes and Valerie Cooper:

Anole: "They could have been sucked into another dimension!
Colonel Reyes: "This is a waste of time".
Anole: "Or they could be in Asgard, or Space, seriously!" "Have you ever heard about Mojo, Miss Cooper? They could have been turned into babies"
Valerie: "I'm calling Cyclops".

Hilarious!!!!

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Tieri's attempts at writing British dialogue still make me cringe, but that looks really good. The level of interaction between the cast is exactly what we've been asking for in New Excalibur. I think Frank really gets how to write them as a team. Can't wait for my issue to arrive.

[Sentinel K]

Yeah excalibur looks pretty good.

Origins doesn't. A whole page for Wolverine to fall over? Bah!

[TinMan]

New Excalibur looks kickass!! I've loved every issue of NE so far and I'm sure this will be no exception, especially since I'm addicted to fantasy/magic. Looking forward to it for sure.

Origins looks interesting, but I still can't get into Dillion's work on this book, his Omega Red isn't that bad though. I think Way needs to kick himself in the ass and pick up the pace a bit with his story telling in this title though, it moves to slow with to few reveals to keep it really interesting.

[Metallurgique]

That scene with Victor and Val is really hysterical, actually. :)

If they're not in deep crap with the adults for leaving, then certainly crashing the blackbird in downtown Dallas will qualify.

As for Forge - you know, I think he ought to move out of Eagle Plaza. It seems to get attacked quite frequently. The Dire Wraiths attacked it, the Adversary destroyed it, Fitzroy blew the top ten stories off of it, and now Nimrod's punched a few holes in it. Time to get some more secure real estate, forge!

[Beast]

Nice previews. But I prefer Claremont's Wisdom to Tieri's. Too many goofy pop culture refrences spewing from Pete's mouth. Mr. McFly, Sherman & Peabody. Ugh. Anyone else and it would be fine, but from Pete it feels wrong. That and the plot convenience playhouse of saying it's harder to send someone forward in time than it is to send them back. Uhhh, what happens when the Excalibur team has to come home? :p Heh, that said I do like the issue so far. Especially Pete pulling his 'Leader Trump Card' and everyone laughing their asses off (except Sage of course) was great though. As was Sage footsweeping Wisdom into the lake. :D

[Madrox84]

New X-Men #30 and New Excalibur #11 look cool.

Origins looks crap... I don't think i'm gonna bother buying it.

[Novaya Havoc]

I love how they try to femme Dazzler up with some INTENSE LIPSTICK!!!1

[Tilt]

Notice the jacket is gone too....hmmmm.

A slight improvement anyway.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

I love what Sage did!!! :D

[Hi-Fi]

Wow, they look great indeed!

Victor's scene is HILARIOUS!!

And that's the Sage I like!

[rwsmith]

Nice. Wolverine: Origins looks great to me. I think I'm definitely gonna love this next arc, as I've always loved those X-men issues dealing with Team X and Omega Red in Russia.

Interesting that his wound hasn't healed yet. I wonder if the Muramasa blade has messed up his healing factor or if it's just that one cut that won't heal because it came from the sword? Looking forward to finding out.

As for the other two previews, not really interested. New Excalibur just seems lame all around (lame cast, lame dialogue, etc.), and I never really got into the New X-men.

Just my opinion.

[X-Factor]

New Excalibur is almost half-way decent. I still depise the art, and the character designs still stink, but at least they have fun dialogue to match their (not so) funny appearances.

Anole's scene in New X-Men was cute. Credit given where credit is due.

[Daithi]

Anole's scene in New X-Men was cute. Credit given where credit is due.

Yeah that was fun.

[Joe Acro]

I don't like the premise in Excalibur. {weeps} More time travel. And they were doing so well!

The art in Origins is so-so and the story itself seems a little bland to me.

And I'm sure New Mutants, I mean, X-Men is a fun comic, but I just can't seem to get into it.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I don't like the premise in Excalibur. {weeps} More time travel. And they were doing so well!

Why this hatred of time travel? You even sport a Dalek as your avatar!:D

Anyhuw, it's not like this is premise of Excalibur. It's just an issue off from the regular stories while the regular writer is away.

[Joe Acro]

Why this hatred of time travel? You even sport a Dalek as your avatar!:D

True, I do sport a Dalek. But just because I happen to like Daleks doesn't mean I have to like all the stories involving them (like the one at the end of the most recent season). I'm just tired of time travel in comics. It's way overused. Even more than retcons and bringing people back from death. I make exceptions for time travel stories that make sense. This is not one of those stories.

[X-Factor]

Why this hatred of time travel? You even sport a Dalek as your avatar!:D

Anyhuw, it's not like this is premise of Excalibur. It's just an issue off from the regular stories while the regular writer is away.

Time travel are convultions waiting to happen.

Sometimes it works, but a rare occurence it certainly is.

[Flameworthy]

Notice the jacket is gone too....hmmmm.

A slight improvement anyway.

Unfortunately it's not gone. She's just holding it in her arm.

Man, I can't stand Ryans art on this book. I know he's letting Dazzler's hair grow slightly out, and she has some lipstick on now, but she still looks way too butched up. Where Sage on the other hand doesn't seem to have that problem. I really would rather have Colins or someone else on this book.

[rilokyle]

Unfortunately it's not gone. She's just holding it in her arm.

Man, I can't stand Ryans art on this book. I know he's letting Dazzler's hair grow slightly out, and she has some lipstick on now, but she still looks way too butched up. Where Sage on the other hand doesn't seem to have that problem. I really would rather have Colins or someone else on this book.
Yeah..... Dazz needs to look "prettier." Pink hair aside, I feel like her face is very feminine looking. She could definitely use some mascara and some lipstick.

By the way Flameworthy- I like your avatar? Is that Abbey Chase made out to look like Ali? I like it.

[rwsmith]

Time travel are convultions waiting to happen.

Sometimes it works, but a rare occurence it certainly is.

It also has no place in a book like this IMO. The Fantastic Four, sure. But not in the X-men books. To me the X-men have always worked best when the stories were a little more grounded in reality.

[Beast]

It also has no place in a book like this IMO. The Fantastic Four, sure. But not in the X-men books. To me the X-men have always worked best when the stories were a little more grounded in reality.
I have to disagree with you here, mostly because the books have never been really grounded in reality. Not even in the old days, with the giant killer robots. ;)

[Tilt]

Unfortunately it's not gone. She's just holding it in her arm.



Noooo!!
I didn't notice that...damn it. Without the jacket she looks less manly and being able to see more of the star on her top makes her look a bit more like old/real Ali. Of coure, I'd prefer her an entirely different look that'd be a bit more glam, like in The End.

[Hi-Fi]

Dazzler shoud cut Sage's hair while she sleeps, and glue it to her own hair.

[rwsmith]

I have to disagree with you here, mostly because the books have never been really grounded in reality. Not even in the old days, with the giant killer robots. ;)

Well, perhaps grounded in reality was the wrong way of putting it. It's just that time travel creates all sorts of paradoxes and is just so much more far-fetched (at least IMO) than giant killer robots and teleporting mutants and the like. For some reason time travel always seems to take me out of the story and makes me want to roll my eyes. The only time it ever worked for me was AoA, and that's because when they went back and averted that timeline it completely ceased to exist (well, except for the refugees that made it through the M'Kraan crystal).

That's what I think should've happened with Cable, Bishop and Rachel. Once they completed their missions, they should no longer exist. I hate the whole explanation of them "existing outside of time" or however Marvel explains it. It's just a personal preference really, but I wish the X-titles would just stay away from it.

EDIT---Another thing that bothers me about it is this: If time travel is possible, then why should anyone care about what happens in any given storyline? I mean, after all, if Cable can just go back in time and fix whatever went wrong, then who cares if someone dies or if the X-men lose a particular battle? Why can these characters go back and forth between the future and present, but can't go back and stop Magneto from killing Jean at the end of 'Planet X'? It seems awful subjective to me. If I were Logan and really missed Jean, then I'd go to Cable and say, "Hey, bub, you've got the tech to travel back in time. Let me go back and save Jean." After all, Logan doesn't know that she had to die and that Scott and Emma had to get together for the sake of the future, right?

[Joe Acro]

My personal opinion on time travel is that it time is a straight line, never able to be changed. It took a long time, but I eventually accepted that alternate realities could form from changes made in history. I secretly believe some time-keeping force sends people to world with a history not their own in order to make not only the timeline the traveler comes from not be tampered with but also to make the other timeline proceed as it should. To summarize, if someone from 616 travels to the past and does something they can only do something that history says happened. A few great examples of this is the FF/Dr. Strange story involving Rama Tut and the Adventures of Cyclops and Jean Grey (or at least the adventure involving Sinister... I honestly haven't read the rest of the series).

Clearly, this Excalibur story violates my priniciple of time travel and, thus, makes me not want to buy the story.

[Beast]

There's several types of Time Travel in the Marvel Universe though. The one where traveling into past simply shunts one off into a deviant reality that splinters off from the original. However there are a few cases where Time Travel has effected the actual timeline. Most recently was in Young Avengers when Young Kang came back to stop himself from becoming the evil Kang. If he had continued to not been Kang, then it was shown that all The Avengers were going to die in the past, because he'd never tested them. And considering this isn't technological time travel, but of magical origins... it may also fit the second type.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Notice the jacket is gone too....hmmmm.

A slight improvement anyway.

Nah, shes holding it in her arms. TJ took off her hoody too. Its hard to swim in with all those clothes. ;)

[tetragene]

Noooo!!
I didn't notice that...damn it. Without the jacket she looks less manly and being able to see more of the star on her top makes her look a bit more like old/real Ali. Of coure, I'd prefer her an entirely different look that'd be a bit more glam, like in The End.

Yeah her look in The End (and the AoA 10th anniversary) was proof that her original silver costume can be updated to look quite nice and sexy. But ah well.

Time travel...I am generally not the biggest fan. It can lead to some very interesting stories, but the problem is that there have been too many shitty time traveling stories...kinda overshadows any good ones that were ever produced (or ever hope to be produced). I like the notion of "one change leading to a divergent timeline/reality". I think that can lend itself well when you have characters visiting alternate realities and seeing just how "that" version of themselves turned out. I also like that one changed event can completely rewrite the timeline--and thus characters traveling back in time can prove to be quite dangerous--so that even if characters desperately want to change a bad/horrible/unflattering event in history or in their own lives, doing so could lead to an even bleaker future. But as I said before--a lot of real shitty time travel stories have ruined any good that could possibly come of those type of situations.

As for NEX--I DEFINITELY think they could do without a travel through time. Then again the book could also do without ridiculous character redesigns, an emphasis on guest-stars instead of the core cast, and some of the "WTF" villain moments (like the whole first arc makes zero sense after reading #8). I'm holding out on this book because I've always been a fan of Dazzler and have taken a liking to Juggernaut (and Nocturne from the few Exiles issues I read)--but this book has quite a bit of room for improvement...seriously.

[Novaya Havoc]

I ♥ Tetragene

[chickrockguitar]

Loved Anole's scene! Can't wait to read the rest.

[Joe Acro]

There's several types of Time Travel in the Marvel Universe though. The one where traveling into past simply shunts one off into a deviant reality that splinters off from the original. However there are a few cases where Time Travel has effected the actual timeline. Most recently was in Young Avengers when Young Kang came back to stop himself from becoming the evil Kang. If he had continued to not been Kang, then it was shown that all The Avengers were going to die in the past, because he'd never tested them. And considering this isn't technological time travel, but of magical origins... it may also fit the second type.
I didn't read the story, but from what I remember, Kang went back in time and gave himself armor. Theoretically, that's where a divergent future is created. Iron Lad then attempts to travel back to his past, in order to escape his future, but ends up in the 616 universe. Eventually, he has to return to his future so that the Avengers of his timeline won't meet such a terrible fate (though Kang saving the Avengers from death sounds like a terrible concept).

[X-Factor]

It also has no place in a book like this IMO. The Fantastic Four, sure. But not in the X-men books. To me the X-men have always worked best when the stories were a little more grounded in reality.

Agreed. While Beat is correct that the X-Men are rarely grounded, I find myself more attatched to the grounded aspects of the X-Men. The Rachels, Doops, and Magiks of the X-World have rarely been my cup of champagne.

[Beast]

Agreed. While Beat is correct that the X-Men are rarely grounded, I find myself more attatched to the grounded aspects of the X-Men. The Rachels, Doops, and Magiks of the X-World have rarely been my cup of champagne.
Well, Excalibur is not really an X-Men book. It fits more in with the Marvel Universe line, and is listed under that on Marvel.Com. While there are a number of mutant characters in it, just like the original Excalibur it was always more magical and fantasy based than X-Men it's self.

[Tazirai]

Nice look for Excalibur and new x-men. Im sick of wolverien at this point..

[Flameworthy]

Yeah..... Dazz needs to look "prettier." Pink hair aside, I feel like her face is very feminine looking. She could definitely use some mascara and some lipstick.

By the way Flameworthy- I like your avatar? Is that Abbey Chase made out to look like Ali? I like it.

Oh, thanks. It's by some artist who's name I can't recall. I tried searching for it again, but couldn't find anything. I had no idea who Abbey Chase was, so I googled her, and she actually does look like Dazzler in my avatar. Maybe that's who the artist was going for when he drew it.

Edit: I forgot that the pic that Novaya used in that cover of Astonishing X-Men that one time, is by the same artist who drew the one in my avatar.

Darn, I wish I could remember his name.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

It also has no place in a book like this IMO. The Fantastic Four, sure. But not in the X-men books. To me the X-men have always worked best when the stories were a little more grounded in reality.

This is a comment that can only really be made by somebody who never read the original Excalibur. It was always (And remains) more Marvel Universe than X-Book, and the original practically introduced the concept of protracted Universe hopping, spending a good couple of years focussing on alternate versions of Britain, X-Men, Iron Man, and as many variations of Marvel Characters as they could get away with.

This arc is just supposed to be a bit of fun. A story which doesn't take itself too seriously, and gives the characters a chance to interact as a team of individuals.

[rwsmith]

Regardless, I still find it lame. Probably why I never got into the original Excalibur series.

[Gene M.]

"They could've been turned into babies!"

Why am I not reading this series?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Regardless, I still find it lame. Probably why I never got into the original Excalibur series.

This arc is supposed to be ludicrous. If you read the preview pages they even acknowledge this. It's just a bit of fun.

The bottom line is that the book wont really get back on track until Claremont returns to pick up the plot threads he's set up. But in the meantime Tieri gets to have some fun and showcase the characters a bit.

The upcoming Juggernaut/Black Tom story after this arc may actually drive the book a bit further forward, but we wont see anymore of Black Air, Albion, Lionheart, or the Shadow King until Chris returns.

[Christopher O]

This is a comment that can only really be made by somebody who never read the original Excalibur. It was always (And remains) more Marvel Universe than X-Book, and the original practically introduced the concept of protracted Universe hopping, spending a good couple of years focussing on alternate versions of Britain, X-Men, Iron Man, and as many variations of Marvel Characters as they could get away with.

This arc is just supposed to be a bit of fun. A story which doesn't take itself too seriously, and gives the characters a chance to interact as a team of individuals.
I think Excalibur needs to lose the mutant angle. I'd rather see the series center around Captain Britain and the mythos of the British Isles. As it is now, the X-Men aspect overshadows everything else, and I don't see that changing in the near future--not as long as the team is comprised mostly of X-Men.

[Beast]

I think Excalibur needs to lose the mutant angle. I'd rather see the series center around Captain Britain and the mythos of the British Isles. As it is now, the X-Men aspect overshadows everything else, and I don't see that changing in the near future--not as long as the team is comprised mostly of X-Men.
They are?

Pete Wisdom - Not an X-Man
Captain Britain - Not an X-Man
Nocturne - Not an X-Man

Sage - X-Man
Dazzler - X-Man
Juggernaut - X-Man

And there's always the original Excalibur...

Captain Britain - Not an X-Man
Meggan - Not an X-Man

Shadowcat - X-Man
Nightcrawler - X-Man
Phoenix - X-Man

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I think Excalibur needs to lose the mutant angle. I'd rather see the series center around Captain Britain and the mythos of the British Isles. As it is now, the X-Men aspect overshadows everything else, and I don't see that changing in the near future--not as long as the team is comprised mostly of X-Men.

That's one of the reasons I would like to see the Black Knight join, or some of the former members returning (like Kylun or Micromax). It needs to spell itself out as being seperate. A distant x-cousin should an event arise which needs to their help. But definitely seperate.

The problem is that despite Claremont spelling it out in plain English, several times over, that this is a book about how M-Day has turned Britain into a really under protected place, where a team is badly needed to help defend it from the likes of Black Air, or the London Hellfire Club people still gloss over it.

I mean for god's sake! The surviving member of a mutant family team, whose siblings all died in mid flight when M-Day happened, blew himself up in front of a tube station because he couldn't cope anymore and wanted to make a statement to whoever was responsible. That's pretty heavy stuff. Excalibur spend a whole issue pulling people out of the rubble and trying to clear away the mess, and all that people were interested in was which X-Man one of the relief crew may have refered to having met before.

A lot of set up has been done to establish the setting of the book, but a lot of it is simply being ignored.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

They are?

Pete Wisdom - Not an X-Man
Captain Britain - Not an X-Man
Nocturne - Not an X-Man

Sage - X-Man
Dazzler - X-Man
Juggernaut - X-Man

And Juggernaut isn't even a mutant...:rolleyes:

[Christopher O]

Pete Wisdom - Not an X-Man
Captain Britain - Not an X-Man
Nocturne - Not an X-Man

Sage - X-Man
Dazzler - X-Man
Juggernaut - X-Man
I'd definitely consider Nocturne to be an X-Man. She was in her home dimension, and she was a member of the Exiles, which is yet another X-title, so she's certainly an X-Man or at least an X-Men character, and Pete Wisdom, while never really an X-Man, is a mutant and an X-Men character, so that leaves Captain Britain.

[Beast]

And Juggernaut isn't even a mutant...:rolleyes:
Aye. And Sage left the X-Men when she rejoined the Hellfire Club. And Dazzler hasn't been an active X-Man in ages. The only one who is a current X-Men before this book began was Juggernaut.

[Beast]

I'd definitely consider Nocturne to be an X-Man. She was in her home dimension, and she was a member of the Exiles, which is yet another X-title, so she's certainly an X-Man or at least an X-Men character, and Pete Wisdom, while never really an X-Man, is a mutant and an X-Men character, so that leaves Captain Britain.
So, I guess if Spider-Man appears for a few issues.. he's an X-Man character? Or the Fantastic Four. Or the Avengers. Or any of the other characters that show up as cameos. And Exiles may have an X in the title, it is another book that is more Marvel Universe based than X-Based.

We've been over this in regard to Pete Wisdom, he's not an official X-Men.

[Christopher O]

Aye. And Sage left the X-Men when she rejoined the Hellfire Club. And Dazzler hasn't been an active X-Man in ages. The only one who is a current X-Men before this book began was Juggernaut.
They're still X-Men characters, firmly planting the book right in the middle of the X-Men mythology, which brings us right back to my original point.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I don't entirely think I have a problem with the team containing mutants, I just don't want it to be the supreme focus. It wasn't for the original Excalibur, and it shouldn't be here.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

We've been over this in regard to Pete Wisdom, he's not an official X-Men.

Nor would he ever want to be...

[Christopher O]

So, I guess if Spider-Man appears for a few issues.. he's an X-Man character? Or the Fantastic Four. Or the Avengers. Or any of the other characters that show up as cameos. And Exiles may have an X in the title, it is another book that is more Marvel Universe based than X-Based.

We've been over this in regard to Pete Wisdom, he's not an official X-Men.
Official? So what. Shadow King, Toad, Pyro, and Mr. Sinister have never been official X-Men but they're certainly X-Men characters.

Edit: I was being a little too rude, so I changed it. Love ya, Beast!

[Zombienorthstar]

So, I guess if Spider-Man appears for a few issues.. he's an X-Man character? Or the Fantastic Four. Or the Avengers. Or any of the other characters that show up as cameos. And Exiles may have an X in the title, it is another book that is more Marvel Universe based than X-Based.

We've been over this in regard to Pete Wisdom, he's not an official X-Men.


Beast, their status as X-Men debatebul or not...you cant deny this book is still totally skewed towards the mutant/X-Men end of the Marvel universe...whereas many people have expressed a desire for it to become a) A Captain Britain solo book with others as supporting cast members or b) a European/British Avengers.

[Beast]

They're still X-Men characters, firmly planting the book right in the middle of the X-Men mythology, which brings us right back to my original point.
So was most of the original Excalibur. But it like New Excalibur, is not religated to playing just in the X-Sandbox. Same with Exiles.

[Beast]

Beast, their status as X-Men debatebul or not...you cant deny this book is still totally skewed towards the mutant/X-Men end of the Marvel universe...whereas many people have expressed a desire for it to become a) A Captain Britain solo book with others as supporting cast members or b) a European/British Avengers.
Yes, I can deny that it is. Because just like the original Excalibur and Exiles, it is not chained to just X.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Official? So what. Shadow King, Toad, Pyro, and Mr. Sinister have never been official X-Men but they're certainly X-Men characters, and if you're going to be a smart-ass with me, you should at least make a valid point.

If we really want to split hairs here Wisdom wasn't even created for Marvel. He was originally intended for an indie series, in which he had electruc powers, not hot knives. But Ellis wanted a more realistic Brit in Excalibur so he took the characyter and modded him. And then created an electric based character, in the form of Jenny Sparks, for Stormwatch.

But that's niether here nor there.

Yes he's a mutant, but first and foremost he's always worked for the government. He's never had a costume and he never will have. He's not a 'superhero'. Just a mutant in a certain line of work.

That's kind ofd the point of the upcoming Wisdom miniseries - to show the character as an individual with the Marvel Universe, rather than just another x-character. He's a lot more than that.

[Zombienorthstar]

Yes, I can deny that it is. Because just like the original Excalibur and Exiles, it is not chained to just X.

Not in its entirety not...but for the majority part its got a cast of people who are from or have spun out of the X-Men franchise (Dazzler, Nocturne, Juggernaut, Sage, Wisdom)

Thats what some people would prefer to lose. Perhaps have one mutant/x-character and try and spread it around the more obscure areas of the Marvel Universe.

[Christopher O]

So was most of the original Excalibur. But it like New Excalibur, is not religated to playing just in the X-Sandbox. Same with Exiles.
I'm not saying they are retrictricted to the X-Sandbox, but the connection to the X-Men overshadows everything else. It has, for the most part, in Exiles, and it has in Excalibur, and it ultimately did in the original series, too. The easy way around that is centering the series around Capt. Britain and England. At least, that's what I'd like to see.

If we really want to split hairs here Wisdom wasn't even created for Marvel. He was originally intended for an indie series, in which he had electruc powers, not hot knives. But Ellis wanted a more realistic Brit in Excalibur so he took the characyter and modded him. And then created an electric based character, in the form of Jenny Sparks, for Stormwatch.

But that's niether here nor there.

Yes he's a mutant, but first and foremost he's always worked for the government. He's never had a costume and he never will have. He's not a 'superhero'. Just a mutant in a certain line of work.

That's kind ofd the point of the upcoming Wisdom miniseries - to show the character as an individual with the Marvel Universe, rather than just another x-character. He's a lot more than that.
That's completely valid, but Wisdom was introduced in an X-centric book. He's mostly been featured in X-centric books, and his primary relationships have been with X-Men characters. For the record, I hope his mini does separate him from the herd of peripheral X-characters, but as of now, I don't see how he can be considered to be anything else.

[Beast]

I doubt his Mini will do much for his character, considering how well minis for characters in team books usually sell. Add in the 'Max' factor, and it will probably do Jubilee numbers.

[Hi-Fi]

What's the point of this discussion? New Excalibur sucks anyway.


*is polemic*

(the cat-lady made me say it!)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'm not saying they are retrictricted to the X-Sandbox, but the connection to the X-Men overshadows everything else. It has, for the most part, in Exiles, and it has in Excalibur, and it ultimately did in the original series, too. The easy way around that is centering the series around Capt. Britain and England. At least, that's what I'd like to see.

Which is pretty much what Claremont and Davis did on the original Excalibur. Everything was centric to England and the Captain Britain/Otherworld mythos. It wasn't until Scott Lobdell took over that the book lost that identity, and then Ellis brought back a sense of it at least being British.

So far, of course, it's not easy to lead it down the Captain Britain/Otherworld route - because Brian can't get back there. This is something which will be explored after Tieri gives the book back to Chris. The Albion/Lionheart/Sword Corps concepts are going to be a major part of the book.


That's completely valid, but Wisdom was introduced in an X-centric book. He's mostly been featured in X-centric books, and his primary relationships have been with X-Men characters. For the record, I hope his mini does separate him from the herd of peripheral X-characters, but as of now, I don't see how he can be considered to be anything else.

Indeed. He's never appeared outside of X-book, only Excalibur and X-Force.

Of course in both of these examples there are strong explorations of how his life is grounded in the Marvel Universe, and not as an X-Man. But to date it's never been explored away from an X-title. Thankfully, now, Marvel are letting that happen.

[Christopher O]

What's the point of this discussion? New Excalibur sucks anyway.
The voice of reason. The point? Boredom?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I doubt his Mini will do much for his character, considering how well minis for characters in team books usually sell. Add in the 'Max' factor, and it will probably do Jubilee numbers.

From having spoken a little about the book with Paul Cornell a while back it sounds like this series WILL do that. It will also be filling in a number of blanks regarding MI 13, which Claremont introduced as a government agency, but has not had a chance to actually do anything with as of yet.

Some old British Marvel characters will be appearing, and Paul mentioned that Alistaire Stuart's absense will be mentioned.

He wouldn't tell me more, but I think that while MAX titles are sometimes harder to sell this will actually do quite a bit for exploring the character.

[Novaya Havoc]

Edit: I forgot that the pic that Novaya used in that cover of Astonishing X-Men that one time, is by the same artist who drew the one in my avatar.

Darn, I wish I could remember his name.

Garrett Blair. ;)

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=68025&GSub=12121
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=100269&GSub=18126
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=112414&GSub=18126

[tunasammiches]

I actually really like Pete Wisdom as a character and I love the idea that he's gonna have his own mini. Ever since he was introduced in Excalibur along with Black Air and the British Hellfire Club, I remember thinking "FINALLY. Excalibur's gonna have REAL bad guys instead of the silly Technet, magical Merlins and Ani-Phoenixes. All those things seemed to take them away and outside from reality. And since there were X-Men on the team, I kept thinking that they kept missing out on real action which was unfortunate because 1)they were great X-Men, and 2) they had such close ties to the other X-Men

-Rachel (I kept wanting her to get the chance to interact with Scott and Jean and fight something that dealt with mutant issues, rather than cosmic stuff or magic stuff)

-Kitty and Nightcrawler (great characters and powers, deeply rooted in X-lore)

And with Capt. Britain, I still don't get why he doesn't have a latent mutant power when BOTH his siblings are mutants AND his wife's a mutant.

I'll always see Excalibur as an X-Book becuase it's always had strong ties to the other X-Books. But aall the stories seemed to take them farther and farther from the X-World and since the book didn't seem like it was making any effort to integrate itself with what was happening with the X-Men, it just seemed like whatever happened to the team or the characters themselves didn't matter. When Ellis wrote the book, it seemed like the team transformed into their roles as political embassadors, and started integrating more with their origins.

Although I just said all that, I'm glad they're doing a time travel story. It's almost like an homage to old Excalibur. But I can't wait to get to the meaty parts. More Black Air.

[fishtaco]

Some old British Marvel characters will be appearing, and Paul mentioned that Alistaire Stuart's absense will be mentioned.I'm kind of annoyed at how he hasn't appeared in New Excalibur yet. I mean, he's only the best Excalibur supporting character ever, y'know. I also thought that interaction between him and Rachel was needed in Uncanny X-Men #'s 448-449, but since pretty much all of Rachel's history is being ignored since she became "Marvel Girl", I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

You're not the only one.

What I like about New Excalibur is that it's like sifting through the wreckage of M-Day, which wile linked to X-lore (Obviously) is also linking it more broadly with the Marvel Universe as a whole.

And no Captain Britain will never be a mutant. And debateably neother of his siblings are either. Theior father comes from another dimension, and they may all have been genetically engineered. That never got properly explored...:D

[tunasammiches]

So Psylocke's not a mutant?

[fishtaco]

You're not the only one.

What I like about New Excalibur is that it's like sifting through the wreckage of M-Day, which wile linked to X-lore (Obviously) is also linking it more broadly with the Marvel Universe as a whole.

And no Captain Britain will never be a mutant. And debateably neother of his siblings are either. Theior father comes from another dimension, and they may all have been genetically engineered. That never got properly explored...:DWell, I'm not thrilled about the "cleaning of after M-Day" part of NEX because I hate House of M and Decimation and would like nothing more than to see these stories erased. I'd rather Claremont focus on his own stories than dealing with the so-called "aftermath" or "repercussions" of a retro direction. But I would like to see Alistare show up, and the Crazy Gang, Technet, Roma and/or Saturnyne, Mad Jim-Jaspers, Justicer Bull, Kate Pryde/Widget, Nigel Frobisher (what happened to him?), dinosaurs, Cats Laughing, Cross-Time immigration police, and all the stuff that made Excalibur a top-notch book. New Excalibur is also missing the goofiness that Excalibur had. This is probably due to Alan Davis not being on the book to co-plot with Chris. If Michael Ryan leaves, Davis should replace him, or at least do some fill-in issues. I know he's busy on Fantastic Four: The End, but I don't care. This book should be on hiatus, too. I think the book is doomed.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'm kind of annoyed at how he hasn't appeared in New Excalibur yet. I mean, he's only the best Excalibur supporting character ever, y'know. I also thought that interaction between him and Rachel was needed in Uncanny X-Men #'s 448-449, but since pretty much all of Rachel's history is being ignored since she became "Marvel Girl", I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

Indeed he is. And he hasn't been seen since he and Wisdom revamped X-Force to take down Romany Wisdom.

Like I say Paul has said this will be explored.

[Beast]

Well, I'm not thrilled about the "cleaning of after M-Day" part of NEX because I hate House of M and Decimation and would like nothing more than to see these stories erased. I'd rather Claremont focus on his own stories than dealing with the so-called "aftermath" or "repercussions" of a retro direction. But I would like to see Alistare show up, and the Crazy Gang, Technet, Roma and/or Saturnyne, Mad Jim-Jaspers, Justicer Bull, Kate Pryde/Widget, Nigel Frobisher (what happened to him?), dinosaurs, Cats Laughing, Cross-Time immigration police, and all the stuff that made Excalibur a top-notch book. New Excalibur is also missing the goofiness that Excalibur had. This is probably due to Alan Davis not being on the book to co-plot with Chris. If Michael Ryan leaves, Davis should replace him, or at least do some fill-in issues. I know he's busy on Fantastic Four: The End, but I don't care. This book should be on hiatus, too. I think the book is doomed.
It has to appeal to everyone, not just people who are obsessed with the original Excalibur.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

So Psylocke's not a mutant?

She and Jamie are both classed as mutants. But Jamie wasn't a mutant wen he was created. His powers developed much later after he was left in Africa to be tortured, for his links with the slave trade. Sat-yr-9 picked him up and used him to help her cause.

It was mentioned long ago that Sir James might have literally 'made' his children. Sadly, it's hard to be sure as he's dead, and the only other being who might know was the Braddock Manor Mastermind Computer - which is also gone, after it tried to take over Otherworld in 2000's Excalibur mini.

[Daithi]

It has to appeal to everyone, not just people who are obsessed with the original Excalibur.

I love the original Excalibur but not New Excalibur. In fact I think the weakest part of this book is when Claremont starts using old Excalibur plot lines.

[Beast]

I love the original Excalibur but not New Excalibur. In fact I think the weakest part of this book is when Claremont starts using old Excalibur plot lines.
I lioved seeing the Warwolves again, but he doesn't need to do call backs to everything.

[tunasammiches]

Garrett Blair. ;)

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=68025&GSub=12121
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=100269&GSub=18126
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=112414&GSub=18126

I like that guy's stuff. That's it. I think I'm gonna do some more Dazzler art now too. I'm dying to draw her old costumes.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I love the original Excalibur but not New Excalibur. In fact I think the weakest part of this book is when Claremont starts using old Excalibur plot lines.

To date he hasn't really used ANY old Excalibur plots, bar reusing the warwolves.

Everything else is a direct continuation from the events of M-Day, the machinations of the Shadow King, anew Character and new spin on the Captain Britain Corps mythos, and Black Air's new power play in lue of M-Day.

I think there's a bit of over generalisation here.

And I know somebody will probably argue for the Shadow X-Men here, but they were after all just pawns, a conduit for the Shadow king to get back to our dimensions, and they appear to have gotten here by some as of yet undisclosed manner perpetrated by Black Air.

[fishtaco]

To date he hasn't really used ANY old Excalibur plots, bar reusing the warwolves.

Everything else is a direct continuation from the events of M-Day, the machinations of the Shadow King, anew Character and new spin on the Captain Britain Corps mythos, and Black Air's new power play in lue of M-Day.

I think there's a bit of over generalisation here.

And I know somebody will probably argue for the Shadow X-Men here, but they were after all just pawns, a conduit for the Shadow king to get back to our dimensions, and they appear to have gotten here by some as of yet undisclosed manner perpetrated by Black Air.There's also Courtney Ross. The only reason I'm reading New Excalibur is to watch these old plotlines get resolved.

[xmanson]

I don't think even Claremont knows the deal with Courtney Ross.

[Hi-Fi]

I don't think even Claremont knows the deal with Courtney Ross.

LOL!

Yet she keeps appearing in the book. I don't think even Courteney knows what her deal is.

[Novaya Havoc]

I don't think even Claremont knows the deal with Courtney Ross.

<lol>

Agreed.

[Beast]

To date he hasn't really used ANY old Excalibur plots, bar reusing the warwolves.

Everything else is a direct continuation from the events of M-Day, the machinations of the Shadow King, anew Character and new spin on the Captain Britain Corps mythos, and Black Air's new power play in lue of M-Day.

I think there's a bit of over generalisation here.

And I know somebody will probably argue for the Shadow X-Men here, but they were after all just pawns, a conduit for the Shadow king to get back to our dimensions, and they appear to have gotten here by some as of yet undisclosed manner perpetrated by Black Air.
Well, I don't think Black Air was responsible for them getting to the 616. The Shadow King said in #8 that whatever caused HoM/Decimation (we saw a shot of Scarlet Witch speaking "No More Mutants")caused cracks to spiral out from the 616 reality to damage other realities. And it was through one of those cracks that he was able to return. He most likely brought the Xavier body and the Shadow X-Men with him.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I don't think even Claremont knows the deal with Courtney Ross.

Courtney Ross was brought into New Excalibur, like Sage, because her connections to the Hellfire Club. Both were going to be highly relevent to the story which was intended to be THE story behind the first year of New Excalibur, but since that story was vetoed both characters look a bit redundant of purpose in the book.

At least Courtney hasn't been used since the Lionheart/Albion issue. I hope that during his time off Chris has come to some kind of idea what to do with her, and worked out quite how to make her fit now.

The hasty writing around the Lionheart/Albion issue had her down as seemingly being the real Courtney Ross, and not Sat-yr-9, Brian trusting her, and her somehow and for some reason having been cut off from her finances. That was never explained further. It might be related to Black Air. Certainly removing the means of any competition in Great Britain would be their style.

But again it was a thread left dangling that probably would have been covered by now if circumstances hadn't take Chris off the book.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Well, I don't think Black Air was responsible for them getting to the 616. The Shadow King said in #8 that whatever caused HoM/Decimation (we saw a shot of Scarlet Witch speaking "No More Mutants")caused cracks to spiral out from the 616 reality to damage other realities. And it was through one of those cracks that he was able to return. He most likely brought the Xavier body and the Shadow X-Men with him.

Well he certainly couldn't have done it without a host body.

The only reason I would see Black Air having a greater involvement is that they usually plan well head. I don't think they were just opportunely picking up the Shadow X-Men, I expect some greater plan on thier part.

There is also the question of why the Shadow X-Men were pursuing Courtney's employee in the first arc. The Shadow King would have no need or reason to do this. As Courtney/Sat-yr-9 was left financially in control of large parts of london, including parts of the underworld, in the original Excalibur, it would make sense for Black Air to have been employing these Shadow X-Men to remove her and her clout from the equation in any way they could.

[xmanson]

They have to explain why dark Xavier was chasing one of Courtney's emplyees too.

And in issue four it shows one man that wprked for her bank dead too, IIRC.

The most bugging i that CC seem to have no idea what the characters are supposed to feel for her - she's a monster, she's a nice lady, she's not so bad.

It's painfully ridiculous seeing a writer mess up things from one issue to another.

[Loki]

But I would like to see Alistare show up, and ... Nigel Frobisher (what happened to him?).

He's dead - Sat-Yr9 stabbed him to death back during Alan Davis' run of the book, shortly after her forces had taken over Braddock Manor.

[fishtaco]

He's dead - Sat-Yr9 stabbed him to death back during Alan Davis' run of the book, shortly after her forces had taken over Braddock Manor.Was that in #55? I've never got around to it. If so, then why would she do that, since he was working for her ever since #'s 9, 11. :confused:

[The Sword Is Drawn]

He's dead - Sat-Yr9 stabbed him to death back during Alan Davis' run of the book, shortly after her forces had taken over Braddock Manor.

Alistaire was last seen in X-Force, where he and Wisdom worked to use X-Force to take out Romany Wisdom. what happened to him, as state earlier, is apparently going to be addressed in part of the Wisdom mini series.

[Loki]

Was that in #55? I've never got around to it. If so, then why would she do that, since he was working for her ever since #'s 9, 11. :confused:
#56. And she did it because he was intending to kill Captain Britain (who she has a perverted thing for), and because at the end of the day she's a psychotic b*tch.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

#56. And she did it because he was intending to kill Captain Britain (who she has a perverted thing for), and because at the end of the day she's a psychotic b*tch.

You wont hear any disagreement there. ;)

[Loki]

Alistaire was last seen in X-Force, where he and Wisdom worked to use X-Force to take out Romany Wisdom. what happened to him, as state earlier, is apparently going to be addressed in part of the Wisdom mini series.
Yes, I know Alistaire is alive. fishtaco was asking what happened to Nigel Frobisher. And you are wrong about Alistaire - he was seen in X-Treme X-Men after appearing in X-Force, and most recently in Uncanny X-Men #449, when the X-Men were in London taking on Viper.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Yes, I know Alistaire is alive. fishtaco was asking what happened to Nigel Frobisher. And you are wrong about Alistaire - he was seen in X-Treme X-Men after appearing in X-Force, and most recently in Uncanny X-Men #449, when the X-Men were in London taking on Viper.

I remember the X-Treme Appearance. I don't believe he actually spoke, but he was one of a grooup of mutant experts gathered by Storm if I remember rightly.

Did not read the Uncanny appearance. I was out of the lopp for a period then. What did I miss?

[Loki]

I remember the X-Treme Appearance. I don't believe he actually spoke, but he was one of a grooup of mutant experts gathered by Storm if I remember rightly.

Did not read the Uncanny appearance. I was out of the lopp for a period then. What did I miss?
Not a lot - Viper had planted a bomb on the London Eye, and Alistaire was there when the X-Men turned up to disable it.

[tetragene]

There is also the question of why the Shadow X-Men were pursuing Courtney's employee in the first arc. The Shadow King would have no need or reason to do this. As Courtney/Sat-yr-9 was left financially in control of large parts of london, including parts of the underworld, in the original Excalibur, it would make sense for Black Air to have been employing these Shadow X-Men to remove her and her clout from the equation in any way they could.

But then there's also the question of why the Shadow King was jonesing after Nocturne in the first three issues (and never explains why). Then by #8 he is creaming his pants over only Psylocke and shows no interest in Nocturne--even though in the first arc Psylocke was KOed and could have easily been apprehended by him. I don't see the SK working for anybody else...and certainly don't see anybody being able to pull anything over on him so that "they" are "using" him. #8 makes the whole first arc make zero sense. And the characters not being able to make up their damn minds on whether Courtney is a good person or a "monster" also makes zero sense. They jump from one conclusion/opinion to the other very quickly and with no explaination.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

But then there's also the question of why the Shadow King was jonesing after Nocturne in the first three issues (and never explains why). Then by #8 he is creaming his pants over only Psylocke and shows no interest in Nocturne--even though in the first arc Psylocke was KOed and could have easily been apprehended by him. I don't see the SK working for anybody else...and certainly don't see anybody being able to pull anything over on him so that "they" are "using" him. #8 makes the whole first arc make zero sense. And the characters not being able to make up their damn minds on whether Courtney is a good person or a "monster" also makes zero sense. They jump from one conclusion/opinion to the other very quickly and with no explaination.

Nocturne could have been tactical though. Yes he was trying to get her in the first couple of issues, but think about it. What if she'd tried to possess Shadow Xavier? She wouldn't've been able to. Because he already had the Shadow King in his body.

The Shadow King did not want to reveal himself until the time was right. If the Shadow X-Men had decided to/been coerced into working for Black Air the chances of them even knowing the Shadow King was in Xavier's body is practically zero. He wouldn't have revealed himself to them. It wasn't part of his agenda. He just wanted a one on one with Psylocke to get his revenge.

He couldn't have that in the first arc. because there were others there who could have fought him if they'd known who they were up against. It is not surprising that he picked his targets carefully in those opening issues. Starting with Rachel as the strongest psi.

[Daithi]

Nocturne could have been tactical though. Yes he was trying to get her in the first couple of issues, but think about it. What if she'd tried to possess Shadow Xavier? She wouldn't've been able to. Because he already had the Shadow King in his body.


But didn't Shadow Jean try to kill Psylocke?


He couldn't have that in the first arc. because there were others there who could have fought him if they'd known who they were up against. It is not surprising that he picked his targets carefully in those opening issues. Starting with Rachel as the strongest psi.

Rachel does acknowledge that there was something different but familar about the Shadow Xavier. However according to Shadow Xavier he didn't actually know who Rachel was.

I still maintain that once Claremont knew he was off Uncanny and on Exiles he made Shadow Xavier the Shadow King.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

But didn't Shadow Jean try to kill Psylocke?

Yeah, but she didn't succeed did she...:rolleyes:

Rachel does acknowledge that there was something different but familar about the Shadow Xavier. However according to Shadow Xavier he didn't actually know who Rachel was.

Hmmm. There's a question. Did The Shadow King ever actually meet Rachel? I'm pretty sure that by the time that The Shadow King appeared in full in Uncanny Rachel was already in Excalibur. And Shadow Xavier wouldn't have any knowledge of her either. As the cross-time caper in Excalibur taught us there has only ever been one Rachel, she does not exist in any other universe.

[fishtaco]

Hmmm. There's a question. Did The Shadow King ever actually meet Rachel? I'm pretty sure that by the time that The Shadow King appeared in full in Uncanny Rachel was already in Excalibur. And Shadow Xavier wouldn't have any knowledge of her either. As the cross-time caper in Excalibur taught us there has only ever been one Rachel, she does not exist in any other universe.Yes, he has. Excalibur (1st Series) #'s 21-22, for sure. Also, it has been hinted at heavily that the Shadow King is the true architect behind the Hound program. The Shadow King thinking that Rachel was Jean was a mistake made by Claremont, but I think the intention he had behind putting that bit of dialogue in the issue was to establish that there was no Rachel in the timeline he corrupted those X-Men from, which goes further down the road to say that there is only one Rachel Summers.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Yes, he has. Excalibur (1st Series) #'s 21-22, for sure. Also, it has been hinted at heavily that the Shadow King is the true architect behind the Hound program. The Shadow King thinking that Rachel was Jean was a mistake made by Claremont, but I think the intention he had behind putting that bit of dialogue in the issue was to establish that there was no Rachel in the timeline he corrupted those X-Men from, which goes further down the road to say that there is only one Rachel Summers.

You're probably right.

As I've said before, if Claremont had continued beyond plotting up to #8 this would probably all have been cleared up by now.

[d newton]

Yes, he has. Excalibur (1st Series) #'s 21-22, for sure.
And the True Friends mini as well! :D

[Joe Acro]

As the cross-time caper in Excalibur taught us there has only ever been one Rachel, she does not exist in any other universe.
I can't honestly believe this to be true. How can it be true? It makes little sense.

[Beast]

I can't honestly believe this to be true. How can it be true? It makes little sense.
It was restated in Uncanny X-Men during House of M. Rachel and Psycloke are together in the White Hot Room, and Psylocke is dancing down her various alternate reality selves. But Rachel is shown not to have any in all the multiverse. Yes there are alternate reality Rachel's out there (as Rachel explains), but they're not alternate reality versions of this Rachel. She's unique throught the multiverse. Most believe that ties into CC's original plans of Rachel being the daughter of Jean and the Phoenix Force.

[tetragene]

Nocturne could have been tactical though. Yes he was trying to get her in the first couple of issues, but think about it. What if she'd tried to possess Shadow Xavier? She wouldn't've been able to. Because he already had the Shadow King in his body.

The Shadow King did not want to reveal himself until the time was right. If the Shadow X-Men had decided to/been coerced into working for Black Air the chances of them even knowing the Shadow King was in Xavier's body is practically zero. He wouldn't have revealed himself to them. It wasn't part of his agenda. He just wanted a one on one with Psylocke to get his revenge.

He couldn't have that in the first arc. because there were others there who could have fought him if they'd known who they were up against. It is not surprising that he picked his targets carefully in those opening issues. Starting with Rachel as the strongest psi.

As soon as Rachel, Kitty, and Kurt were removed from the fight (which happend in the beginning) why wouldn't he have been able to possess the remaining characters as easily as he did in #8 (he possessed Nocturne, Wisdom, and Dazzler very easily and Juggs was no problem once he lost his helmet...which he wasn't wearing the whole first arc). And if Courtney was such a threat to Black Air (assuming the Dark X-Men were even in cahoots with them at the time)--why not just kill Courtney while she was at the hospital...instead of picking off her employees? Sorry, but I still maintain the first arc makes no sense after #8. #8 seemed thrown together just to have the SK and Psylocke in there to transfer over to Exiles.

[jarrod]

She and Jamie are both classed as mutants. But Jamie wasn't a mutant wen he was created. His powers developed much later after he was left in Africa to be tortured, for his links with the slave trade. Sat-yr-9 picked him up and used him to help her cause.

It was mentioned long ago that Sir James might have literally 'made' his children. Sadly, it's hard to be sure as he's dead, and the only other being who might know was the Braddock Manor Mastermind Computer - which is also gone, after it tried to take over Otherworld in 2000's Excalibur mini.
It's also notable that all three siblings didn't manifest their abilities until well into adulthood (mid 20s for Brian/Betsy, late 30s for Jamie), and even then we know for sure magic was involved with at least Brian/Jamie. I think the best explination might be that Roma "engineered" that Betsy would "register" as a mutant, ensuring her place at Xaivers and the the eventual forming of Excalibur.

Brian's been called a mutant before by Marvel too. Hopefully the whole mess will be resovled some day, clarifying that all three Braddock children were bio-engineered human/otherworld hybrids.

[Joe Acro]

It was restated in Uncanny X-Men during House of M. Rachel and Psycloke are together in the White Hot Room, and Psylocke is dancing down her various alternate reality selves. But Rachel is shown not to have any in all the multiverse. Yes there are alternate reality Rachel's out there (as Rachel explains), but they're not alternate reality versions of this Rachel. She's unique throught the multiverse. Most believe that ties into CC's original plans of Rachel being the daughter of Jean and the Phoenix Force.
This whole concept is defying one of my systems for how alternate realities exist. It's because of that that this is so hard to grasp. With my concept, there's just no way to explain someone being unique, when compared to other realities. Oh, this hurts my head.

[Daithi]

This whole concept is defying one of my systems for how alternate realities exist. It's because of that that this is so hard to grasp. With my concept, there's just no way to explain someone being unique, when compared to other realities. Oh, this hurts my head.


Oh according to the Shadow King he's unique across the multiverse himself. Despite Excalibur having fought a "Shadow King" on an alternate world!

[Beast]

This whole concept is defying one of my systems for how alternate realities exist. It's because of that that this is so hard to grasp. With my concept, there's just no way to explain someone being unique, when compared to other realities. Oh, this hurts my head.
No it doesn't defy the system. Alternate reality Rachels exist, they're just not alternatives to this Rachel. Children were born in some realities, and were named Rachel. Doesn't mean that they're the same person as Rachel in another timeline. It isn't really that hard to grasp.

[Beast]

Oh according to the Shadow King he's unique across the multiverse himself. Despite Excalibur having fought a "Shadow King" on an alternate world!
As for the Shadow King, who knows... that could be his ego talking. We can't take his statement as fact. He may want to believe that he's unique across the multiverse, simply because he chooses to believe that. He went to a reality where there wasn't a Shadow King, and saw into a limited number of others when the cracks in the multiverse sprung up. :)

[Joe Acro]

No it doesn't defy the system. Alternate reality Rachels exist, they're just not alternatives to this Rachel. Children were born in some realities, and were named Rachel. Doesn't mean that they're the same person as Rachel in another timeline. It isn't really that hard to grasp.
It may not defy the system, but it defies my system of thought. How can there be no other Rachels that are the children of their respective Jean and Scott, experienced the same tragedies, had the same relationships, and somehow acquired Phoenix powers? I'm baffled.

[Beast]

It may not defy the system, but it defies my system of thought. How can there be no other Rachels that are the children of their respective Jean and Scott, experienced the same tragedies, had the same relationships, and somehow acquired Phoenix powers? I'm baffled.
There are Rachels who are the children of alternate reality Jean/Scott. But they are not alternate reality versions of this Rachel. Again, it ties back to the original plans of making Rachel the daughter of Jean/Phoenix.

[tetragene]

In other words its a bunch of confusing, convaluted crap to make Rachel seem really, really special :p

[Novaya Havoc]

In other words its a bunch of confusing, convaluted crap to make Rachel seem really, really special :p

Which she so isn't.

<hates Rachel>

[rwsmith]

Same here. Death to all alternate reality/future X-men offspring!

[jarrod]

Which she so isn't.

<hates Rachel>
At least she's no longer the "butch top" of Excalibur. That role seems to have been taken over by a far more deserving 2nd stinger. :P

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Which she so isn't.

<hates Rachel>

Someones jealous....:rolleyes:

[Joe Acro]

In other words its a bunch of confusing, convaluted crap to make Rachel seem really, really special :p
That's what I'm getting out of this. Sounds like a job for Superboy-Prime.

[fishtaco]

It may not defy the system, but it defies my system of thought. How can there be no other Rachels that are the children of their respective Jean and Scott, experienced the same tragedies, had the same relationships, and somehow acquired Phoenix powers? I'm baffled.Why is it so hard to believe? There is only one Rachel, just like there is only one Phoenix Force. Claremont never established that there were other Rachel Summers's in alternate realities but none that were actually a Rachel Summers. He clearly established in Excalibur (1st Series) #'s 9, 12-19, 21-24 that there is only one Rachel Summers in all of Cross-Time. Period.

[Atom_basher]

Anole dialogue is hilarious on that page *Prays anole isnt killed*

[The Sword Is Drawn]

In other words its a bunch of confusing, convaluted crap to make Rachel seem really, really special :p

Started well over a decade ago.

[Arilou]

Why is it so hard to believe? There is only one Rachel, just like there is only one Phoenix Force. Claremont never established that there were other Rachel Summers's in alternate realities but none that were actually a Rachel Summers. He clearly established in Excalibur (1st Series) #'s 9, 12-19, 21-24 that there is only one Rachel Summers in all of Cross-Time. Period.

Except that there ARE other Rachel Summers. Some of which even manifest the Phoenix Effect (not to mention that the Phoenix itself (What is it this week, an independent entity or the manifestation of Jean's power? If the latter there CERTAINLY are more than one Phoenix as the Exiles killed one).

[Christopher O]

Someones jealous....:rolleyes:
Of what? Being Jean's placeholder?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Except that there ARE other Rachel Summers. Some of which even manifest the Phoenix Effect (not to mention that the Phoenix itself (What is it this week, an independent entity or the manifestation of Jean's power? If the latter there CERTAINLY are more than one Phoenix as the Exiles killed one).

No. There aren't. There have never been any shown, and Claremont has signposted this at every step of th way, with Rachel.

He's keeping it this way in the hope, that someday, Marvel will let him do Rachel's true origin story. Which would make her even more exclusive.

[Arilou]

No. There aren't. There have never been any shown, and Claremont has signposted this at every step of th way, with Rachel.

He's keeping it this way in the hope, that someday, Marvel will let him do Rachel's true origin story. Which would make her even more exclusive.

Claremont, for better or for worse, doesen't decide that though. It's simply not his call to make. All the characters are *composites* because several authors have added their distinctive twists to their stories. While Claremont's contribution is (probably) the most significant one it is *not* the only one.

There are alternate Phoenixes. The Exiles killed one. End of story.

[Beast]

Claremont, for better or for worse, doesen't decide that though. It's simply not his call to make. All the characters are *composites* because several authors have added their distinctive twists to their stories. While Claremont's contribution is (probably) the most significant one it is *not* the only one.

There are alternate Phoenixes. The Exiles killed one. End of story.
Yes there are alternate Phoenixes. Most likely one for every Multiverse... probably.

It wasn't Rachel though, it was Jean. And Marvel has approved her being unique in the multiverse.

It was just restated and approved in the House of M issues of Uncanny X-Men.

[Arilou]

Yes there are alternate Phoenixes. Most likely one for every Multiverse... probably.

It wasn't Rachel though, it was Jean. And Marvel has approved her being unique in the multiverse.

It was just restated and approved in the House of M issues of Uncanny X-Men.

There was an alternate Rachel too. (Vi-lock universe) although you might get that one by cop-out.

Nonetheless he stated that the Phoenix was multiversally unique. It is not. (indeed, the entire "Phoenix Corps" seems to contradict that as well)

[Beast]

No, he said that Rachel was multiversally unique. That's what is canon.

[fishtaco]

Claremont, for better or for worse, doesen't decide that though. It's simply not his call to make. All the characters are *composites* because several authors have added their distinctive twists to their stories. While Claremont's contribution is (probably) the most significant one it is *not* the only one.

There are alternate Phoenixes. The Exiles killed one. End of story.No, any alternate "Rachel Summers" you might see is a continuity mistake/glitch. There is only one Rachel.

[Arilou]

No, he said that Rachel was multiversally unique. That's what is canon.

There is only one Rachel, just like there is only one Phoenix Force

...

o, any alternate "Rachel Summers" you might see is a continuity mistake/glitch. There is only one Rachel.

Is there any reason to prefer the rather crappy HoM/New Excalibur/Whatever stories in favour of the excellent Exiles ones? Especially when the latter *specifically* deal with alternate realities? (I take the word of such a title over one only tangentially related any day)

Heck, there is not only one Rachel Summers in Exiles: There is at least two (the one who is the mother of Hyperstorm, which has also, IIRC; existed in other realities) the one in the Vi-lock world, and I suspect if we really look into it we'll find others.

It doesen't make *any sense* for beings to be "multiversally unique" not with the way the entire multiverse-theory operates. (I *could* make an exception for the Living Tribunal I suppose, but that's the only one)

[fishtaco]

Is there any reason to prefer the rather crappy HoM/New Excalibur/Whatever stories in favour of the excellent Exiles ones? Especially when the latter *specifically* deal with alternate realities? (I take the word of such a title over one only tangentially related any day)Excuse me? I prefer the rather pimptastic Cross-Time Caper story, which is where it was established that there is only one Rachel Summers.

[Novaya Havoc]

Excuse me? I prefer the rather pimptastic Cross-Time Caper story, which is where it was established that there is only one Rachel Summers.

Things get changed and retconned, sweety. You know, like Madelyne Pryor. Or Dazzler being a woman.

[Arilou]

Excuse me? I prefer the rather pimptastic Cross-Time Caper story, which is where it was established that there is only one Rachel Summers.

Yes you do, I don't.

The sources obviously contradict each other, simple as that.
Personally I think that if the X-men can't stick to basic cosmology they should stay out of cosmic stories. Unfortunately the X-men has been living in their own little world for way too long for that to work *sigh*.

[Beast]

Again, those alternate Rachel's were not alternates of DoFP Rachel. It's already been restated after they appeared that any alternate reality Rachel's were not alternate versions of Rachel inhabiting 616.

[Arilou]

Again, those alternate Rachel's were not alternates of DoFP Rachel. It's already been restated after they appeared that any alternate reality Rachel's were not alternate versions of Rachel inhabiting 616.

Again, I already said you could insert the cop-out explanation if you want to. Still doesen't make any sense given how alternate realities work. For every possible situation there is an alternate universe (that's why they're infinite....) so there's an unlimited number of possible DOFP universes, including one where the only difference is that Rachel dyed her hair green. Or an atom bounced slightly to the left.

The entire point about multiverses is that *everything has a counterpart* yeah, it won't be *exactly* the same of course, because that's what makes it *alternate*, but then, the same can be said for the alternate wolvies.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

...



Is there any reason to prefer the rather crappy HoM/New Excalibur/Whatever stories in favour of the excellent Exiles ones? Especially when the latter *specifically* deal with alternate realities? (I take the word of such a title over one only tangentially related any day)

And in this one statement you lost all credibility.

Phoenix was spelled out as exclusive throughout her 75 issue run on Excalibur, and restated in Uncanny, in particular in the White Hot room in House of M. These are cannon, and we're talking about an established concepts and character points which have been present in the X-Men for 15 years.

Versus a book wth a comparably short life span, never to have dealt with the Phoenix empowered character in question...? Sorry, where was your arguament again?:confused:

If you had botheredto read the original Excalibur, and Rachel Summers (Phoenix) during that time, you would know that for most of the first few years of the title Excalibur spent leaping from universe to universe - and very pointedly during that time they never met another Rachel Summers. The grand high powers that be of the Omniverse Saturnyne and Roma acknowledged the same point that was hammered into our heads that there was only one Rachel Summers who was the Phoenix. She was unique to the Ominverse. And no other version of her could exist.

If Excalibur's cros-time storyline had never happened eXiles would probably have never happened. Claremont proved you could run a title on alternative universes a full decade before eXiles.

This has since been retconned to fit in with Grant Morrison's version of the Phoenix Mythos - mutation rather than entity - and a Rachel could appear in eXiles. But not bonded to the Phoenix. as only one of those combined entites has ever existed.

[tetragene]

I'll simplify this for everyone confused about the Rachel b/s (like me)--if CC says Storm can conjure up a lightning storm by rubbing her nipples in a circular motion then it means Storm can conjure a freakin' lightning storm by rubbin' her freakin' nipples in a circular motion! It doesn't matter what any other writer has added/changed/established prior or afterwards--once CC has written something it stays in stone and it is golden. He can retcon stuff and it makes sense and is cannon, but 85% of the other writers can't. It is forbidden to think otherwise. It doesn't matter if 50 writers showcase an alternate reality Rachel Grey/Summers--CC says there is only one, so that means there is only one.

(think of Locke's definition of "enthusiasm" in this regard and it'll all make perfect sense ;) )

[Beast]

I'll simplify this for everyone confused about the Rachel b/s (like me)--if CC says Storm can conjure up a lightning storm by rubbing her nipples in a circular motion then it means Storm can conjure a freakin' lightning storm by rubbin' her freakin' nipples in a circular motion! It doesn't matter what any other writer has added/changed/established prior or afterwards--once CC has written something it stays in stone and it is golden. He can retcon stuff and it makes sense and is cannon, but 85% of the other writers can't. It is forbidden to think otherwise. It doesn't matter if 50 writers showcase an alternate reality Rachel Grey/Summers--CC says there is only one, so that means there is only one.

(think of Locke's definition of "enthusiasm" in this regard and it'll all make perfect sense ;) )
And you also destroy your credibility by trying to be cutesy. Because it's already been stated, restated, and those one or two deviations have been explained. There haven't been 50 writers who said otherwise. It's what Marvel says is canon. And Marvel states that there is no alternate reality versions of Rachel Grey. Any who have appeared are not alternates, they simply share the same name.

[Brian M.]

Excuse me? I prefer the rather pimptastic Cross-Time Caper story, which is where it was established that there is only one Rachel Summers.

It couldn't be that the people in that story were wrong? Maybe they didn't know everything. Maybe there really are multiple Rachels, just not that many.

[Novaya Havoc]

I, for one, get a killer in-joke nerdy kick about a poster named "Arilou" discussing alternate realities in different *times* ;)

<tips hat to Arilou and winks>

[Arilou]

Phoenix was spelled out as exclusive throughout her 75 issue run on Excalibur .... Versus a book wth a comparably short life span

Exiles actually has more issues than that.

But no, it's just not Exiles. It's the entire freakin' concept of then Multiverse as consistently portrayed in the Marvel U.

If you had botheredto read the original Excalibur, and Rachel Summers (Phoenix) during that time, you would know that for most of the first few years of the title Excalibur spent leaping from universe to universe - and very pointedly during that time they never met another Rachel Summers.

Doesen't really say anything as there would be an infinite number of universes *without* a Rachel Summers. (and an infinite number with one, in one form or another)

This has since been retconned to fit in with Grant Morrison's version of the Phoenix Mythos - mutation rather than entity - and a Rachel could appear in eXiles. But not bonded to the Phoenix. as only one of those combined entites has ever existed.

Is the Phoenix a separate entity or just a the final stage of Grey's mutation? That is a rather important question, no?

This has since been retconned to fit in with Grant Morrison's version of the Phoenix Mythos - mutation rather than entity - and a Rachel could appear in eXiles. But not bonded to the Phoenix. as only one of those combined entites has ever existed.

None of which, very pointedly, appears outside the X-men. You'd think when the Magus was re-making realities at his whim or when the Goddess tried to incinerate the multiverse they'd take notice, but nooo.... They leave that to Thanos and his friends to solve.

A lot of the X-men stories fits *very badly* in the Marvel Universe.

I, for one, get a killer in-joke nerdy kick about a poster named "Arilou" discussing alternate realities in different *times*

<tips hat to Arilou and winks>

Though clever, children cannot always understand the subtler implications of different *spaces* and *times*.

It's like trying to make them trap *Nnngh*.

[Beast]

It couldn't be that the people in that story were wrong? Maybe they didn't know everything. Maybe there really are multiple Rachels, just not that many.
Well, the WHR scene in Uncanny X-Men during HoM confirmed that there are none.

[Arilou]

And you also destroy your credibility by trying to be cutesy. Because it's already been stated, restated, and those one or two deviations have been explained. There haven't been 50 writers who said otherwise. It's what Marvel says is canon. And Marvel states that there is no alternate reality versions of Rachel Grey. Any who have appeared are not alternates, they simply share the same name.

I haven't heard Marvel state any such thing: I have heard Chris Claremont say so inside the context of a story (which, for all we know, may be wrong. Remember, Rachel hasn't met the alternate-Rachels).

[Brian M.]

Well, the WHR scene in Uncanny X-Men during HoM confirmed that there are none.

Eh, nothing is final in the MU. Except Cat-Beast.

[Novaya Havoc]

Though clever, children cannot always understand the subtler implications of different *spaces* and *times*.

It's like trying to make them trap *Nnngh*.

HEEE!!!! :D

When they made their heads all crazy-jigglay in SC3 to denote a "telepathic" effect, I was shattered. :(

[Flameworthy]

Of what? Being Jean's placeholder?

Oh Snap!

It's funny because it's true.:D

[Beast]

I haven't heard Marvel state any such thing: I have heard Chris Claremont say so inside the context of a story (which, for all we know, may be wrong. Remember, Rachel hasn't met the alternate-Rachels).
Editorial didn't put the kibosh on it. And it's in the handbooks. So tis canon.

And it doesn't matter if she met them or not, Psylocke never met hers either. They showed up.

[Novaya Havoc]

Personally, if this Rachel Summers is the only one, that's pretty depressing. Think of all the lost opportunities to meet an interesting one.

[Brian M.]

Personally, if this Rachel Summers is the only one, that's pretty depressing. Think of all the lost opportunities to meet an interesting one.

Plus if that's the only one...think of what a waste it is...no hope of replacing her w/ something more interesting.

[Arilou]

To further clarify, what exactly do we mean by a different "Version"? of a character?

As far as I understand the theory *there is no link* each universe has a fully separate and equal "character". The only similarities are really circumstantial (IE: Literally derived from circumstance) They are only "counterparts" from their own POV (and that of the reader) because they share some uncanny similarities. (In some ways they can be considered siblings or cousins or identical twins, they aren't the same person, not really)

Thus if a woman named Rachel Summers with telepathic powers who is daughter of Jean Grey and Scott Summers... Well, that is "close enough" to be a "counterpart". It's really the wrong word, but you get my meaning, neh?

[Novaya Havoc]

Editorial didn't put the kibosh on it. And it's in the handbooks. So tis canon.

Oh, pshaw. The Handbooks are ripe with errors everywhere.

[Arilou]

Oh, pshaw. The Handbooks are ripe with errors everywhere.

Yep, the Handbooks say Marvel: The End, is canon, editors say it ain't. The handbooks (according to Andy himself) gives wildly innaccurate estimates for the population of the Kree, Skrull and Shi'ar, etc. etc.

[Flameworthy]

Garrett Blair. ;)

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=68025&GSub=12121
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=100269&GSub=18126
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=112414&GSub=18126

That's him!

Thanks Novaya

[Beast]

Well it doesn't matter anyway. The books themselves state it as fact.

[Novaya Havoc]

Well it doesn't matter anyway. The books themselves state it as fact.

The books also state that Dazzler is one of the most powerful mutants in the universe.

Don't see her Marvel.com trading cards/handbooks/encyclopedias and varied fan battles stating as much. They'll put Cyclops at a higher power.

Chris Claremont can't just "lock down" continuity on a whim to save his pet characters.

[Arilou]

Well it doesn't matter anyway. The books themselves state it as fact.

And also blatantly contradict themselves.

And if there at any point is something unclear, feel free to use your own judgement. I think the attempts to make Rachel OMGSPESHUL is just detracting from a character that, *conceptually* is rather interesting.

The thing is, X-men really don't do good cosmic stories (at least nothing compared to the Lee/Kirby or Starlin stuff) when they try it usually just becomes embarassing and too often contradicts established Marvel canon. (or at least the implications thereof does. The fact that the two "sides" tend to more or less ignore each other is a good pointer that something is very wrong)

[tetragene]

Well it doesn't matter anyway. The books themselves state it as fact.

So then if another book by another writer stated otherwise it would be fact too, correct?

[Beast]

So then if another book by another writer stated otherwise it would be fact too, correct?
That depends, it would have to confirmed to be an actual alternate reality version of Rachel, and not just an alternate reality person by the same name. The canon from Excalibur and restated in Uncanny and approved by the editors as declared canon by marvel says that she's unique. We've seen that she has no alternate reality counterparts when she was in the white hot room. If a writer wants to go to that much trouble to show that there is, so be it. Would be a pointless retcon however.

[Arilou]

That depends, it would have to confirmed to be an actual alternate reality version of Rachel, and not just an alternate reality person by the same name.

Did you read my diatribe on this? There is no difference.

The canon from Excalibur and restated and declared canon by marvel says that she's unique. We've seen that she has no alternate reality counterparts when she was in the white hot room. If a writer wants to go to that much trouble to show that there is, so be it. Would be a pointless retcon however.

Just like the pointless retconning of the Asgardian-summoning Rachel in Exiles or the one(s) that mothered Hyperstorm in various alternate realities?

[Novaya Havoc]

That depends, it would have to confirmed to be an actual alternate reality version of Rachel, and not just an alternate reality person by the same name. The canon from Excalibur and restated in Uncanny and approved by the editors as declared canon by marvel says that she's unique. We've seen that she has no alternate reality counterparts when she was in the white hot room. If a writer wants to go to that much trouble to show that there is, so be it. Would be a pointless retcon however.

I'd rather wager that it's a pointless plot point to begin with.

What reason is there to make just ONE Rachel and have no others? One word: ego. I think the loss of his playthings has driven Chris Claremont batty since the return of Jean Grey, and now he's trying to stamp down "UNIQUE AND SPECIAL" on every one of his creations so they can never fade away into obscurity.

See: Sage, her myriad of powers, and her being retconned as the first X-Man.
See: Psylocke, Jamie Braddock, and her reinvention as the Ultimate Warrior.
See: Destiny's Diaries.
See: The Shadow King.
See: Rachel Grey.

-B

[Beast]

Did you read my diatribe on this? There is no difference.
There is, because it ties into the original origins for Rachel which never saw print. She was planned to be the child of Jean and the Phoenix. That's why Moira notes some odd readings regarding her genetics when she first shows up. That's also why Scott as a Hound was unable to locate her. There have been clues since she first appeared that there was more to her origins, this was the development of the storyline that would reveal it. So yes, that's what makes her unique across the multiverse.

[DHX]

Since ryan is going to runaways who's going to be the new penciler on excaliber?

[Novaya Havoc]

Since ryan is going to runaways who's going to be the new penciler on excaliber?

If it's Coipel, and if it includes a fabulous Dazzler, I will buy this through Issue #50.

But it won't. :(

[fishtaco]

Since ryan is going to runaways who's going to be the new penciler on excaliber?He is? YES!!! I know it'll never happen, but I hope Alan Davis.

[Hi-Fi]

He is? YES!!! I know it'll never happen, but I hope Alan Davis.

Davis just signed a exclusivity contract with Marvel. He's bringing ClanDestine back.

[Joe Acro]

There is, because it ties into the original origins for Rachel which never saw print. She was planned to be the child of Jean and the Phoenix. That's why Moira notes some odd readings regarding her genetics when she first shows up. That's also why Scott as a Hound was unable to locate her. There have been clues since she first appeared that there was more to her origins, this was the development of the storyline that would reveal it. So yes, that's what makes her unique across the multiverse.
I just want to say, maybe to conclude my thoughts on the topic, that no character in comics can be unique without it being an act of God, or His comic book depiction.

[Novaya Havoc]

No me gusta de Alan Davis

[fishtaco]

I just want to say, maybe to conclude my thoughts on the topic, that no character in comics can be unique without it being an act of God, or His comic book depiction.Okay, so if God shows up in a comic book and says to the reader that there is only one Rachel Summers, then you'd be okay with it? But how would they draw him? Would he look like a burning bush? Would it be Jesus? Would it be Bruce Almighty, or would his word balloons just appear while he's off-panel? There's no reason not to believe that a comic character is unique throughout all of Cross-Time. There is, because it ties into the original origins for Rachel which never saw print. She was planned to be the child of Jean and the Phoenix. That's why Moira notes some odd readings regarding her genetics when she first shows up. That's also why Scott as a Hound was unable to locate her. There have been clues since she first appeared that there was more to her origins, this was the development of the storyline that would reveal it. So yes, that's what makes her unique across the multiverse.Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you.

[Novaya Havoc]

Okay, so if God shows up in a comic book and says to the reader that there is only one Rachel Summers, then you'd be okay with it? But how would they draw him? Would he look like a burning bush? Would it be Jesus? Would it be Bruce Almighty, or would his word balloons just appear while he's off-panel? There's no reason not to believe that a comic character is unique throughout all of Cross-Time.

And again -- what's the point of this? To establish HIS character as the ONESUPERPHOENIXAWESOME over what happened to his original Phoenix/Jean Grey.

It's egotism. It's lame. And I'm glad it wasn't permitted. Let Rachel stand on her own merits, and not warp her into some crazy egotistic wish-fulfillment.

[Christopher O]

Jesus-Rachel would have been cool. I would've bought the issue featuring her torture, crucifixion, and inevitable death.

[Arilou]

There is, because it ties into the original origins for Rachel which never saw print. She was planned to be the child of Jean and the Phoenix. That's why Moira notes some odd readings regarding her genetics when she first shows up. That's also why Scott as a Hound was unable to locate her. There have been clues since she first appeared that there was more to her origins, this was the development of the storyline that would reveal it. So yes, that's what makes her unique across the multiverse.

Why? Due to the nature of multi-reality there would be an infinite number of Rachel's sharing this oriign. And in any case, that origin was never actually gone through with. (although it still may of course)

As stated Rachel is *Scott's* daughter as much as Jean's.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Davis just signed a exclusivity contract with Marvel. He's bringing ClanDestine back.

Whoa! Hi-Fi, where did you hear this? :eek: That would be brilliant.

Where have people heard that Michael Ryan is leaving New Excalibur?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Wow. Just found it on newsarama.

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/JoeMonday_2.html

Ryan to follow Joss Whedon onto Runaways, and Alan Davis to revive Clan Destine.

Great news.

[Daithi]

Jesus-Rachel would have been cool. I would've bought the issue featuring her torture, crucifixion, and inevitable death.

and resurrection! However I think Cable is the new mutant Jesus.

Also apparently Ryan needs more wider recognition. Hmm, it doesn't bode well for NEX.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Also apparently Ryan needs more wider recognition. Hmm, it doesn't bode well for NEX.

Ryan has not been a great artist on NEX.

I've lost count of the number of people on here and on at least another four boards I visit who have stated Ryan's art as a key factor to why they haven't touched the book. Sometimes I think that Marvel's loyalty to their artists goes to far, and they overlook how unpopular they are.

If he goes, as I woyuld expect him to, it is no loss.

I've posted the people I would like to see replace him on another thread. In fact I dids it months ago, as well.

The book will be given another year by Marvel for claremont to get it going again once he returns, but the new artist is going to play a big part in that. The right man could make the book. The wrong man could well push it towards the brink.

Excalibur has been a fairly big book at Marvel in the past. It deserves a better hand on the pencils.

[Daithi]

I've lost count of the number of people on here and on at least another four boards I visit who have stated Ryan's art as a key factor to why they haven't touched the book. Sometimes I think that Marvel's loyalty to their artists goes to far, and they overlook how unpopular they are.

But comic book boards are the most negative of all boards. How many people wouldn't pick up NEX because Claremont was writing it? Or that it's a bunch of B-listeres. I don't think it's all Ryan's fault or it's a "key factor".

[The Sword Is Drawn]

But comic book boards are the most negative of all boards. How many people wouldn't pick up NEX because Claremont was writing it? Or that it's a bunch of B-listeres. I don't think it's all Ryan's fault or it's a "key factor".

I don't think he's chiefly to blame, no. And yes, a lot of people blow these things out of all proportions.

But when every review or summary for a book contains at least two responses saying 'I wont buy this book. The art sucks' or similar, you can't deny that this is an issue.

As I have said on the Michael Ryan thread I don't think it's that hes a bad artist - he's just not the right artist to draw this book.

[Daithi]

I don't think he's chiefly to blame, no. And yes, a lot of people blow these things out of all proportions.


Including your following line that every review or summary complains about the art or has response about how bad the art is.


But when every review or summary for a book contains at least two responses saying 'I wont buy this book. The art sucks' or similar, you can't deny that this is an issue.

The exact same "the art sucks" is labelled at Tan, Bachalo and Cassidy also. Art is always an issue for a comic. It's not an issue for me in this and I'ld put most of the blame on Claremont.

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

Including your following line that every review or summary complains about the art or has response about how bad the art is.

The exact same "the art sucks" is labelled at Tan, Bachalo and Cassidy also. Art is always an issue for a comic. It's not an issue for me in this and I'ld put most of the blame on Claremont.

It is, yes, but I think that Ryan's received a lot more than most. Even for issues which he didn't work on :D

No seriously, he didn't pencil the Warwolves story. He had a 'break' after the first arc. But that didn't stop people accusing him of of being garbage.

Yes, people tend to blow things out of all proportions on messageboards Daithi, but I'm a regular on a number of different comic book boards, and every single one has levelled a lot of accusation at Ryan's art being a huge turn off for the book.

I don't see anything wrong with Sword raising that. I was going to raise it m'self.

Ryan never fitted this title. He doesn't do action scenes well. And a lot of Excalibur has been action scenes.

[jarrod]

Of what? Being Jean's placeholder?
Is that a dig at Rachel or Emma?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Is that a dig at Rachel or Emma?

Touche. :D

[tetragene]

Ryan isn't my favorite artist, but I by no means think he is bad at all--I think he's rather good. And I haven't noticed his fight/action scenes being bad. And in all fairness the biggest problem this title has is that the writers who are tackling the project don't seem to know what they should really be doing with it--we haven't had very good character moments from the core cast (and I don't consider Brian making a few remniscent lines toward Black Knight to be good "character moments"), we don't know what the hell the core cast feels about each other, villain involvment and motivation has been shakey and confusing (especially arc 1 after issue #8 was released), questionable character redesigns (and according to Ryan a few of them, such as Dazzler, were not his ideas but CC's), and focusing/emphasizing more on the guest characters (Rachel, Kitty, Psylocke, Chamber, Black Knight). Yeah, this book is loaded with TONS more problems than the art.

[Oliverhannah]

Make me think Omega Red's son of the Wolverine? :confused: WEIRD!! LOL

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Ryan isn't my favorite artist, but I by no means think he is bad at all--I think he's rather good. And I haven't noticed his fight/action scenes being bad. And in all fairness the biggest problem this title has is that the writers who are tackling the project don't seem to know what they should really be doing with it--we haven't had very good character moments from the core cast (and I don't consider Brian making a few remniscent lines toward Black Knight to be good "character moments"), we don't know what the hell the core cast feels about each other, villain involvment and motivation has been shakey and confusing (especially arc 1 after issue #8 was released), questionable character redesigns (and according to Ryan a few of them, such as Dazzler, were not his ideas but CC's), and focusing/emphasizing more on the guest characters (Rachel, Kitty, Psylocke, Chamber, Black Knight). Yeah, this book is loaded with TONS more problems than the art.

I think that if a new reader were to come into this book at issue 6 or 7 and read through up to the next issue, I don't really see that they'd have much of a complaint against the book. Yes, possibly that they have missed something, and that they want to see the team interacting more, but that would really be it.

Pretty much all the problems you refer to are due to the shaky first few issues of the title, during what even I acknowledge as a pretty bad rewriting of a plot that that was vetoed. The stretching of plots over two issue with Albion and Lionheart is particularly bad. Introducing both Sage and Courtney Ross only to have neither actually do anything.

The bottom line is that these issues have been hammered and bent badly into the shape they currently are, to accomodate changing the central plot of the entire first year of the book. Heck I can't say for certain that having The London Hellfire Club and adressing those plots from X-Treme would have been better written, but they cetainly would have made more sense withe the cast.

[steve2275]

did anyone like when mike he drew cable?

[Oliverhannah]

OH NO!! i think Dani might involved i