Super Powers, and the laws of science(s)

[Agnew420]

The other night a few friends and I were discussing the various super powers in comic books and how they might relate to evolution, mutation and the various laws of science themselves.
It started out with my question about Superman coming from Krypton and that not just because of Earth's Yellow Sun, but the fact that Krypton had a heavier gravity, being a cause for Superman's powers. Then someone pointed out that if Superman stayed on Earth for too long he would experience a loss of bone mass and density as well as a loss of muscle mass. This was explained by an astronaut being in space for six months, and having severe degeneration in her bone density. Supes has been on Earth for almost his entire life, give or take half a year.
We then went on to discuss the Flash and how even with super speed, would he have super fast reflexes, the abilty to read super fast (Impulse in Teen Titans), and a super fast metabolism (same Teen Titans story), ie healing ability. His knees, ankles and hips would wear down super fast, as would his muscles. They would most likely explode from use. And his skin would burn off due to heat and friction. This begs the question of how much does the Speed Force aid the various incarnations of the Flash with his powers, and what are those powers limited/ not limited to.
Please feel free to expound upon the two examples and add your own. Remember we were also talking about evolution and how that might play into ability, mutations, and also breeding or genetic manipulation. {think about how a horse and a donkey can have a baby (mule), but the offspring is almost always sterile to protect against such things} or {certain breeds of dogs and how they got that way (ie Teacup Poodles, mini Dobermans etc/ and also that science is making it possible in the future for a couple to determine their child's eye and hair color, gender and possible genetic diposition, as some people think there may be a gene that causes people to be violent, gay etc}

[Brian Cronin]

They have explained the Flash thing by claiming that he has an aura around him that protects him from heat and friction.

-Brian

[Agentum]

And Flash don't send out shockwaves when he is running around fast, or else people would die when he came running.

But Suerman is shown to break the soundbarrier so i guess he would send out shockwaves then?

And yes austronauts today is training hard in space to be able to stay out in space longer, and still they loose bone and muscle mass.
But before they knew this there were austronauts that colapsed when they was in the earth gravitation again.

[sgt pepper]

To say that the offspring is sterile "to protect against such things" is, I think, a misinterpretation of science. To personify nature or selection as having a desire "to protect" against anything cannot be supported.

[Mark Wallace]

The other night a few friends and I were discussing the various super powers in comic books and how they might relate to evolution, mutation and the various laws of science themselves.
Gawd, I could write books on this topic; it's way to big for a bulletin board.

I settle for "suspension of disbelief" where the super-dupers' powers are concerned, but prefer to see the world they live in behave scientifically "legally".

[sgt pepper]

There is a book, I believe it's called "The Science of Superheroes" which you might find interesting.

Personally, I only look for believability of character and believability of place (one of the artists' most important jobs) in the stories and not believability of superpowers.

[suedenim]

There's also a very nice documentary, "The Science of Superman," that I TiVoed recently, I think from the National Geographic Channel, and it might still be showing. It addresses a lot of these issues with real-world science, and Mark Waid is on it, perhaps the reason it's surprisingly comics-literate (for example, the evolution and fluctuation of Superman's powers are accurately described.)

And while it doesn't have much to do with the science stuff, I was impressed that they used illustrative footage from pretty much every Superman movie or TV show, not just Superman Returns. The Fleischer cartoons, Justice League, The Adventures of Superman, the Chris Reeve movies, Smallville, Lois and Clark. Which is kinda neat in and of itself.

[Agnew420]

To say that the offspring is sterile "to protect against such things" is, I think, a misinterpretation of science. To personify nature or selection as having a desire "to protect" against anything cannot be supported.

I also agree on your point, i just couldn't think of the proper terminology. I believe it has to do with a preservation of sorts, due to the varying side effects of two species co-mingling. Although there may be scientific proof to substantiate that a Cromagnon being and a Neaderthal were similar enough in genetic makeup to 1) be attracted enough to each other to attempt the mating ritual and 2) successfully create a hybrid of the two species. I saw this on TLC or the Discovery Channel. I would guess that by combining the two species, much like when two different breeds of dogs or cats mate they create a special offspring that can attain the best qualities of both breeds. Such as a "mutt" if you will, usually lives longer and has fewer health problems then a dog that has been specially bred for generations. And although I know you may wonder what this has to do with super powers, think about this. If a being could take the best of her mother's and father's genetics and hypothetically weed out the bad genetics (ie high cholesterol, cancers, growth annomalies, learning disabilities etc) then wouldn't that sort of make for a "mutant" human. Think of how the X-Men got their powers. Or May Parker, Peter's daughter. She inherited her father's genetic spider-like traits, plus there were some added powers she gained as well.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

It's the need to explain superpowers that sucks the fun out of comics.

Like with that Science of Superman documentary. What was the point of telling us that Superman couldn't exist in real life.

Was it just a way for Mark Waid to show off his physics background?

We get it Mark...you're a nerd.

[Tommy]

My big pet peeve is phasing. Writers are incapable of understanding that power.

First off change in Density has nothing to do with walking through a wall. Gas can not pass through a solid.

Secondly unphaseing and lodging two solids into each other should spark off a nuclear reaction.

[BizarroBeachHead]

Secondly unphaseing and lodging two solids into each other should spark off a nuclear reaction.
You should be happy to know that at least ONE writer understands! Mike Carey, in the recent Ultimate Fantastic Four #2, makes reffrence to this:

"It seems that if you teleport an object--even a very small one--into any sort of solid matter, you get a spontaneous explosion of huge magnitude."

Though it's not technically about phasing but rather teleportation, the principle is the same.

[Reptisaurus!]

My big pet peeve is phasing. Writers are incapable of understanding that power.

First off change in Density has nothing to do with walking through a wall. Gas can not pass through a solid.


But couldn't you find a substance *less* dense than gas that could? Theoretically, in the real world, I'd wager that "Substance X" here couldn't maintain internal cohesion, but it's close enough for comic physics.

[Mark Wallace]

But couldn't you find a substance *less* dense than gas that could? Theoretically, in the real world, I'd wager that "Substance X" here couldn't maintain internal cohesion, but it's close enough for comic physics.
It's not the density, it's the Strong force. You can't make the subatomic particles of one atom/molecule pass through the orbital space of the subatomic particles of another atom/molecule, no matter how much vacant space there seems to be there.

But suspend any disbelief; Kitty does it anyway.

[Shadow ES]

It's not the density, it's the Strong force. You can't make the subatomic particles of one atom/molecule pass through the orbital space of the subatomic particles of another atom/molecule, no matter how much vacant space there seems to be there.
The electromagnetic force would play a bigger role than the strong force. The strong force is attractive.

[Agnew420]

Let's say that part of "phasing" meant that the subject, Kitty Pride, would attain the likeness of the molecules she was passing through. If a solid body of mass could attain that, then would it be possible? And another thing to think of would be this. If that were the case, that you wouldn't necessarily be phasing so much as becoming part of the structure/ solid object that you were passing through, would you need to understand the atomic structure of whatever you phased through?

[shawnh]

Superheroes and the laws of science ...

Don't mix.

It's all fantasy. As long as they come up with a pseudo-scientific explanation, like unstable molecues or solar-powered Superman, and use it consistently according to its own internal logic, I'm happy.

If you think about it too much, it doesn't make any sense at all usually. How much energy could Superman really absorb from the sun, considering how small the surface area of his body is? The Flash has finally been explained by magic, so have, essentially, the Green Lanterns.

I like it when writers at least put the thought in their pseudo-science to where it at least sounds like it makes sense. In Unity, for example, when they talked about how anything could be done by "moving energy," I was able to buy that. I liked the idea that Nexus took his energy directly from suns.

[Mark Wallace]

Superheroes and the laws of science ...

Don't mix.

It's all fantasy. As long as they come up with a pseudo-scientific explanation, like unstable molecues or solar-powered Superman, and use it consistently according to its own internal logic, I'm happy.

If you think about it too much, it doesn't make any sense at all usually. How much energy could Superman really absorb from the sun, considering how small the surface area of his body is? The Flash has finally been explained by magic, so have, essentially, the Green Lanterns.

I like it when writers at least put the thought in their pseudo-science to where it at least sounds like it makes sense. In Unity, for example, when they talked about how anything could be done by "moving energy," I was able to buy that. I liked the idea that Nexus took his energy directly from suns.
I only like the exposition of a super-dupers' powers if there's a reason for it other than just the exposition; but, unfortunately, too many comic writers get all excited about such things, and waste space on explaining powers that nobody wants explanations for.

OK, so Kitty can walk through walls. I know that's impossible, and that it will always be impossible, but I don't care! Tell me a story about the character that I will enjoy!

Occasionally, a good one comes up, though. Look at the world of new stories that were made possible by Alan Moore's exposition of Swampy in "Anatomy Lesson" (the science behind which is total bunkum, of course, but who cares?)

[hmnut73]

Yes! My feeling on superpowers is I do not need to know how they are possible just how they work. Kitty can walk through walls, period. Peter Paker can stick to stuff, period. Bruce Banner can turn into a huge hulking monster, period. As soon as writers and fans start talking about molecular density and increasing gravity and accessing mass from secret dimensions I'm rolling my eyes:rolleyes: .

All (or nearly all) Superpowers are completely impossible. If they were possible they would not be super. All superpowers come down to “their powers allow them to do that.” Like with the Flash and running at a speed that would kill a normal man, it’s impossible but people bring up he has this aura, but that’s impossible too, or they talk about the speed force, but that’s impossible too. All of it comes down to his powers allow him to do the impossible, that’s what makes it a superpower in the first place and I really don’t need some impossible explanation to explain an impossible ability. Save the ink and write a better story about the character. Don’t waste time telling me how the Flash can run so fast, tell a better story on why he needs to run so fast.

[Radical]

There is a book, I believe it's called "The Science of Superheroes" which you might find interesting.

There's also a book called "The Physics of Superheroes".

It's the need to explain superpowers that sucks the fun out of comics.

That's your opinion. :D I think it makes them more believable.

[sgt pepper]

There's also a book called "The Physics of Superheroes".

Ah yes, that's the one I meant. Has anyone read it? Any good? I might enjoy it if it's the kind of book that uses superheroes as a fun device to teach us some interesting things about our world that we might not know, but not if it's the kind of book that says that all super powers are impossible and therefore ridiculous (duh).

[Radical]

Ah yes, that's the one I meant. Has anyone read it? Any good? I might enjoy it if it's the kind of book that uses superheroes as a fun device to teach us some interesting things about our world that we might not know,

That it is, my friend.

[Tommy]

There is anouther book entitled the Science of the X-men that is also a great read.

[Radical]

I have all three of those books! What are the odds?

[Mark Wallace]

I have all three of those books! What are the odds?
Gawd, now he's asking for statistics, so we've gone right off the believability scale.

[Agnew420]

Gawd, now he's asking for statistics, so we've gone right off the believability scale.

no kidding! how lame would it be for someone to have a math based superpower.
woooops! sorry calculator. dork.

[Radical]

Gawd, now he's asking for statistics, so we've gone right off the believability scale.

ROTFLMAO! :D Just a rhetorical question, guys. :)

[Tommy]

The grand daddy of them all is a little tale I like to call “Crisis on the Infinite Earths.” This one not only didn’t make sense scientifically, but in the end contradicted itself.

To start with a miscalculation in the big bang caused an antimatter universe to form. Now this is fairly reasonable science. However things quickly start to get squirrelly. At this point I would like to state that according to Albert Einstein’s E=MC2 mass is just a really concentrated form of energy.

From the antimatter universe a destructive white wall sweeps through countless universes. This white wall is called alternately “Antimatter Force,” “Antimatter Energy,” and just plain old “Antimatter.” Already you can see a problem. Add to this there is no such thing as “Antimatter Energy.” Energy is just energy. When energy is converted into mass it creates matter and antimatter. When matter and antimatter meet there is a violent reaction called “annihilation” where both particles are converted back into energy. Theoretically the white wall could just be the energy released from bombarding the positive matter universe with antimatter. However that gets messed up later.

According to the laws of conservation energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only change form. The total quantity of matter and energy available in the universe is a fixed amount and never any more or less. If the Anti-Monitor were bombarding a series of positive matter universes with his own antimatter then he would quickly run out of universe.

Now he could theoretically harness the energy released from the annihilation and use it to create more antimatter. The only problem with that is he would simultaneously be creating more positive matter. Matter and Antimatter are created in pairs. No one has ever been able to observe the production of just one out of two. (The how’s and whys of our own universe are quite a mystery however the presence of an antimatter universe would explain a lot.) So in using that energy he in effect be undoing everything he had just done.

Now the other explanation would be that the Antimatter universe is much larger than the positive universes combined, with much more energy. Which is possible, however he would still be reducing his own universe by a considerable margin.

Also it is explained to us that as each positive universe is destroyed the antimatter universe expands to fill its void. This is both impossible and impractical. As there is a finite amount of matter and energy in a universe, what would expand into the positive universe’s void? It would still be the same amount of stuff, just spread father apart. Which is rather impractical, since it would be effectively a sudden massive surge in entropy. Like his universe going the span of a billion years in a second. Which is not exactly a smart way of doing things. Not to mention there should have been an ever decreasing supply of stuff in his universe.

So basically Crisis makes no sense. Moving on we come to the point where it starts getting even more squirrelly.

The heroes start traveling into the antimatter universe and interacting with it like they do their own universe. Which is flat out impossible since they should have been annihilated. And on top of the bad science it makes little sense in the light of the fact that the antimatter universe had already been shown to destroy universe after universe. Why could it destroy external positive matter universes, but not internal influences? In fact the entire Earth is moved into the antimatter universe at one point. It gets even more silly when you stop to think that they were surounded by "antimatter energy" the entire time. From sound, to light, to back ground radiation, by the series own rules they should have died.

Fortunately they acknowledge the impossibility of Alex Luther in the comic. Although theoretically he could have something similar to Sue Storm’s force field separating the matter and antimatter.

I shall go home now and reread the bits about the antimatter cannon and see if it makes sense. I remember thinking that it didn’t at the time…

[Mark Wallace]

My favourite bit of sci-fi crap physics is the "every time a decision is taken, a new universe is created" idea.

Made out of what, pray tell?

... And I knew I'd find this, if I looked long enough:
http://mwallace.net/loony_eclipse.jpg
It's from the late, unlamented "Werewolf by Night" series, in a story by Thomasina's pal, Len Wein.

What, exactly, was the moon eclipsed by?

[BizarroBeachHead]

What, exactly, was the moon eclipsed by?
The Death Star?

[Radical]

Lunar eclipses do happen, actually. Earth gets in the way of the sunlight directed at the moon, and Earth's shadow causes the eclipse.

[Mark Wallace]

Lunar eclipses do happen, actually. Earth gets in the way of the sunlight directed at the moon, and Earth's shadow causes the eclipse.
Sure, but that only blocks sunlight. Nothing gets in the way between the Earth and the Moon.

[Tommy]

Speaking of Werewolves... how exactly is it that sunlight reflected off the moon is different from Sunlight just coming from the sun?

[Mark Wallace]

Speaking of Werewolves... how exactly is it that sunlight reflected off the moon is different from Sunlight just coming from the sun?
It's grey.

[captain_unimpressive]

It's grey.

In my Science class last year, a video entited "What If the Moon Fell to Earth" (not bad, but they've done better, especially with the Pheonix Force) provoked me to create a theory involving extraterrestrial radioactive elements that charge moonlight with cosmic energy benign to all humans except, of course, werewolves.
I also proposed that if the moon were to fall from Earth, the biggest threat to us would not be the tsunamis or the lack of a shield against asteroids, but the massive pandemic of lycanthropism that would sweep the globe.

[Mark Wallace]

In my Science class last year, a video entited "What If the Moon Fell to Earth" (not bad, but they've done better, especially with the Pheonix Force) provoked me to create a theory involving extraterrestrial radioactive elements that charge moonlight with cosmic energy benign to all humans except, of course, werewolves.
I also proposed that if the moon were to fall from Earth, the biggest threat to us would not be the tsunamis or the lack of a shield against asteroids, but the massive pandemic of lycanthropism that would sweep the globe.
And cheese allergies.

[Radical]

And cheese allergies.

ROTFLMAO! :D

[Frostbite883]

So if some all superpowers(e.g. super strength, super speed, etc)
can't exist in our world, what other super powers can?

Of course, I know that enhanced hearing, sight and(possibly) smelling
can be possible in this world.

But, are there any other super powers that can exist
in the real world or not?