Classic Shang-Chi

[Count Vertigo]

I was a flea market before I went to classes tonight and I came across a box of Shang-Chi! God, what a treasure find! I gotta say Marvel certainly knew how to hash out the martial art comics back then. Much better than some of the crap now with speedlines and other anime-style shit.

[Mark Wallace]

I was a flea market before I went to classes tonight and I came across a box of Shang-Chi! God, what a treasure find! I gotta say Marvel certainly knew how to hash out the martial art comics back then. Much better than some of the crap now with speedlines and other anime-style shit.
The Gulacy Shang-Chi issues still have pride of place in my collection.

[pmpknface]

I Sooooooooo need to get on this run. I have the early hard-to-get issues already, but that's ALL I have.

[JeffreyWKramer]

MASTER OF KUNG-FU is one of the best comics of its time and it's still one of my all-time favorites. The book was exceptional for most of the run, due to consistent, strong writing by Moench and excellent art by Gulacy and by Gene Day. Mike Zeck also did a very good, highly underrated job during his long tenure as artist on MoKF.

I'd rank MoKF among the most consistently-good Marvel books of the 70s and early 80s, along with TOMB OF DRACULA. Off hand, I can't think of any other Marvel books from that time which were as consistently good; undeniably great runs on other books, such as the Claremont/Byrne X-MEN, Miller's DAREDEVIL and Gerber's DEFENDERS and HOWARD THE DUCK didn't last nearly as long as did ToD's and MoKF's period of greatness.

[MichikoS]

MASTER OF KUNG-FU is one of the best comics of its time and it's still one of my all-time favorites. The book was exceptional for most of the run, due to consistent, strong writing by Moench and excellent art by Gulacy and by Gene Day. Mike Zeck also did a very good, highly underrated job during his long tenure as artist on MoKF.Totally agree with JWK. MOKF was one of the few long-running Marvel titles that never lost its way--it always stayed true to its pulp/spy/noir roots, regardless of how far afield the actual plots strayed. It worked best when it steered clear of mainstream MU continuity and kept to its own world of international intrigue and high-stakes power games.

Shang-Chi, a very internal character, is not suited to the spandex heroics of the superhero genre. Using him as a second-string MU backup character is a complete waste of his potential. Bendis missed the boat in his Ultimate version of Shang-Chi, in my opinion, and Shang-Chi's most recent treatment in the new HEROES FOR HIRE is another misfire. Too bad. He's a great character in the right hands. I'd love to see Brian K. Vaughan write him.

Michi

[pmpknface]

Bendis missed the boat in his Ultimate version of Shang-Chi, in my opinion, and Shang-Chi's most recent treatment in the new HEROES FOR HIRE is another misfire.
Michi

It's only had 1 issue, and Shang-Chi wasn't even in most of it. Give it a few issues at least.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It's only had 1 issue, and Shang-Chi wasn't even in most of it. Give it a few issues at least.

It'll be largely the same, I expect. MoKF wasn't great so much because of what Shang did, as much as who he was as a character. His internal dialogue was a large part of what made him interesting. Other crucial elements were the supporting cast and the whole Son of Fu Manchu concept. None of that will come through in H4H. As with the MARVEL KNIGHTS book, the new H4H makes him just another member of a team. He might as well be White Tiger, or Iron Fist, or any of about a dozen other characters.Sure, we might get a good issue narrated from his POV some time, but honestly, I'd much more enjoy read about him dealing with his family dynamics or discussing his love for Leiko than I would read his thoughts about a bunch of spandex characters and Black Cat's cleavage.

Mind you, the H4H book might be okay... but it ain't MoKF.

[Kan-Man]

Just a personal observation...

I collected thousands of comics from the early 70s to the mid 80s and I've never owned or read an issue of Master of Kung Fu (same goes for Tomb of Dracula, another fave of this board.) I never realized what a passionate following this book had/has.

I'm kind of wondering now about what I've missed.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Just a personal observation...

I collected thousands of comics from the early 70s to the mid 80s and I've never owned or read an issue of Master of Kung Fu (same goes for Tomb of Dracula, another fave of this board.) I never realized what a passionate following this book had/has.

I'm kind of wondering now about what I've missed.

You missed two of the best books Marvel has ever published, that's all.

Really, while superheroes are what Marvel and DC is known for, much of the time the best books published by these companies were *not* superhero books. People generally recognize that that there were some real gems among the horror titles (MAN-THING, TOMB OF DRACULA, SWAMP THING and the DC anthology books, especially), but often forget other genres. Marvel's westerns and war books were sometimes quite good, though their overall quality was not up to those of DC's better war and western titles. Indeed, I think one can make a good argument that during much of the 70s, DC's most consistently-good books were the war and western titles. SGT ROCK, UNKNOWN SOLDIER, HAUNTED TANK, JONAH HEX and SCALPHUNTER were, on average, better than the average issue of books like ACTION, THE FLASH or JLA.

Try picking up a random issue of BATMAN or JLA or some other DC book circa 1976, and then pick up a random issue of SGT. ROCK or JONAH HEX published near the same time. I'm guessing the Kannigher/Kubert goodness or Fleischer's tale will read the better of the two more often than not.

[Kan-Man]

You missed two of the best books Marvel has ever published, that's all.

Really, while superheroes are what Marvel and DC is known for, much of the time the best books published by these companies were *not* superhero books. People generally recognize that that there were some real gems among the horror titles (MAN-THING, TOMB OF DRACULA, SWAMP THING and the DC anthology books, especially), but often forget other genres. Marvel's westerns and war books were sometimes quite good, though their overall quality was not up to those of DC's better war and western titles. Indeed, I think one can make a good argument that during much of the 70s, DC's most consistently-good books were the war and western titles. SGT ROCK, UNKNOWN SOLDIER, HAUNTED TANK, JONAH HEX and SCALPHUNTER were, on average, better than the average issue of books like ACTION, THE FLASH or JLA.

Try picking up a random issue of BATMAN or JLA or some other DC book circa 1976, and then pick up a random issue of SGT. ROCK or JONAH HEX published near the same time. I'm guessing the Kannigher/Kubert goodness or Fleischer's tale will read the better of the two more often than not.

That's an interesting point. I did venture outside the superhero genre more with DC than I did with Marvel. Sgt. Rock and Unknown Soldier were regular purchases for me. On the other hand, I was 9 in 1976 which was probably the perfect age to appreciate a lot of what Marvel and DC were churning out at the time. I'm sure it wouldn't hold up now, but at that age I enjoyed it.

I've never been a horror guy, so I missed a lot of that stuff. Don't know how I missed Master of Kung Fu though.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I was 9 in 1976 which was probably the perfect age to appreciate a lot of what Marvel and DC were churning out at the time.

Yup, that's the thing. At that point in time, your average DC war book, as one example, was written at a much more mature level, and the art was more subtle and more complex, than what you'd find in, say, FLASH or FREEDOM FIGHTERS or SUPERMAN.

[Agentum]

Is Tomb Of Dracula the longest run a villain has had?

[pmpknface]

Is Tomb Of Dracula the longest run a villain has had?
Good question. Maybe, depending on how you look at it. Do the Thunderbolts count?

[Agentum]

If they were villains yes, but not if they were reformed or something.
I have not read Thunderbolts yet.

I think Catwoman had 80 issues or something too.

[jam]

Man I would love to see an Essential Shang-Chi!!!

But I suppose the copyright for FuManChu has run out ... (probably why we'll never see an Essential Rom or Essential Micronauts, a couple of volumes I'd like to see ..)

It would be nice to see Marvel's B/W magazines feature in the Essential range .. I mean, after all, the original art work must've taken B/W into consideration so it should look pretty good ...

[Roquefort Raider]

It would be nice to see Marvel's B/W magazines feature in the Essential range .. I mean, after all, the original art work must've taken B/W into consideration so it should look pretty good ...

Essential Dracula #4 is all from B&W magazines, so it's not unprecedented.

So did a large part of Essential Moon Knight, too.

[pmpknface]

Man I would love to see an Essential Shang-Chi!!!

But I suppose the copyright for FuManChu has run out ... (probably why we'll never see an Essential Rom or Essential Micronauts, a couple of volumes I'd like to see ..)

It would be nice to see Marvel's B/W magazines feature in the Essential range .. I mean, after all, the original art work must've taken B/W into consideration so it should look pretty good ...
Joe Q mentioned the other day that every so often they inquire about the ROM reprint rights, but they just can't iron out the details. Too bad... :(

Some of those B&W mags have been reprinted in Tomb of Dracula and the Frankenstein Ess's. I'd be down for more tho! :D

[Lone Ranger]

Man I would love to see an Essential Shang-Chi!!!

But I suppose the copyright for FuManChu has run out ... (probably why we'll never see an Essential Rom or Essential Micronauts, a couple of volumes I'd like to see ..)

Here's a question.

What if Marvel just got rid of the name 'Fu Manchu' and called him 'Dave Manchu' or whatever? Marvel has has plenty of yellow peril villains before (see Yellow Claw, Mandarin etc...), so I was never really clear as to why they actually went with a licensed supporting character in this title. I am not sure how far Marvel would have to go so as to avoid legal hassles (any ideas, Slam?).

Could the retcon the storyline for the Essentials line? I personally would live without Fu Manchu just to get to see these books all lined up in a row.

As I am a few years younger than some of my fellow posters, I caught on to MOKF a little later on (circa 1980 or 1981), so it was perhaps after the golden age of the title, but I still thought it was excellent.

One issue that really stands out for me is #98, where Shang-Chi is challened to a fight by Shadow Slasher. Shang-Chi does not want to fight, but SS is relentless and eventually there is a great fight, with SS eventually submitting as he collapses. What I recall is not the actual fight or the action, but the whole tone estaslished prior to, during, after the fight. The reader is really given the sense of Shang-Chi's reluctance and Shadow Slasher's desperate search for honour. At the end of the book, I felt pity for both the victor and the defeated. That's a pretty deft trick to pull off.

Great stuff.

[Mr. Palmer]

What if Marvel just got rid of the name 'Fu Manchu' and called him 'Dave Manchu' or whatever?

I don't see why they couldn't. A few issues back in BLACK PANTHER, the character showed up. It was the same Manchu, and there was a joke bit about not saying his name (or somesuch, can't remember the details).

[pmpknface]

I don't see why they couldn't. A few issues back in BLACK PANTHER, the character showed up. It was the same Manchu, and there was a joke bit about not saying his name (or somesuch, can't remember the details).
They make reference to the fact that since he's existed for hundreds of years that he's changed his name over and over again, so they just gave him a new name.

Send Joe Q an email and ask him if that's possible: Joeydaq@aol.com

[dan bailey]

the fu manchu question came up awhile back on another thread about mokf, iirc, & part of the potential problem in attempting to evade licensing concerns by simply renaming the character is that quite a few of shang-chi's supporting cast were also creations of sax rohmer's.

i guess they could change all such characters' names, but should the rohmer estate pursue the matter i can imagine a court not being persuaded by marvel's position.

[jam]

Essential Dracula #4 is all from B&W magazines, so it's not unprecedented.

So did a large part of Essential Moon Knight, too.

Coo. I did not know that.

Tell you what my secret pleasure would really be : to see an Essential Unknown (?) Worlds of Science Fiction (I'm not sure if "Unknown" is the right word), Roy Thomas' labour of love which ran to five issues (I think).

Is George Perez's first Marvel artwork in there? (The "War Toy" story?)

Anyhoo, that would be great! (An Essential Marvel Presents (was it Presents? or Preview? It ended up being "Bizarre Adventures") would also be great.)

Would people buy these "anthology" titles? I would!

[jam]

Joe Q mentioned the other day that every so often they inquire about the ROM reprint rights, but they just can't iron out the details. Too bad... :(

Some of those B&W mags have been reprinted in Tomb of Dracula and the Frankenstein Ess's. I'd be down for more tho! :D

Hmm. One wonders who the copyright holders are (some Toy company? was it Kenners? or somesuch? Do they still exist? Is there a single copyright holder?), and just how much money are they making from this product? I can't imagine they are raking it in right now! Surely some income would be better than none?

Still, this is all in my own uniformed opinion, so it's completely worthless!

[pmpknface]

Marvel Preview! That's an excellent one! I have a reprint of the early Punisher story in #2.

Unknown Worlds of Science Fiction ran 6 issues, and 1 100-pg special from 1/75 to 11/76. No mention of Perez, although Brunner, Neal Adams, Frazetta, and others contributed.

I checked, and was correct. Perez's 1st work (ever) was 2 pages in Astonishing Tales #25, 1st Deathlok. 8/74.

(Glad I brought my Overstreet to work today!) :D

[pmpknface]

Hmm. One wonders who the copyright holders are (some Toy company? was it Kenners? or somesuch? Do they still exist? Is there a single copyright holder?), and just how much money are they making from this product?

It's Parker Brothers, which I believe is owned by Mattel. So yeah, they are still around. I'm sure it's a "what's in it for them" scenario, where if Marvel make the books the profits would have to go there and therefore make it not too profitable for Marvel to bother with. That's my guess...

[Slam_Bradley]

Here's a question.

What if Marvel just got rid of the name 'Fu Manchu' and called him 'Dave Manchu' or whatever? Marvel has has plenty of yellow peril villains before (see Yellow Claw, Mandarin etc...), so I was never really clear as to why they actually went with a licensed supporting character in this title. I am not sure how far Marvel would have to go so as to avoid legal hassles (any ideas, Slam?).



The copyright of Master of Kung Fu is an issue that I've given a lot of thought (how sad is that?) and that perplexes me. The first three Fu Manchu novels are public domain. That means that Fu, Denis Nayland Smith, and Petrie should be available. Obviously the Rohmer estate would hold a trademark on the Fu Manchu name, but that wouldn't effect the interiors of the book (think Captain Marvel).

I'm aware that Alan Moore didn't explicitely call Fu Manchu by name in LoEG. I can't for the life of me figure out why. My best guess would be to avoid the possibility of litigation with the Rohmer estate (though they aren't as litigious as the Burroughs estate, John Carter and Tarzan both being public domain).

I wonder if the Rohmer estate doesn't have an interest in the copyright of the actual issues of Master of Kung Fu. If so, then there would be no way that they could be reprinted without their permission.

[pmpknface]

LINK: http://www.njedge.net/~knapp/FuFrames.htm

In the early 1970s Marvel Comics acquired the comic book rights to Fu Manchu. They also held the comic book rights to the "Kung Fu" television program, and rather than produce a straight adaptation of either source, the decision was made to combine them. The result was Shang-Chi ("rising of the spirit"), a master of Kung Fu and the (previously unheard of) son of Dr. Fu Manchu.

ALSO:http://www.njedge.net/~knapp/FuFrames.htm

Many people have inquired about the rights to Sax Rohmer's work and the Fu Manchu character in particular. While many of the earlier books have passed into the public domain, the character of Fu Manchu has not. The Society of Authors in Britain specifically list Rohmer's estate on their web site. The Authors League of America does not have a web site, but they are the literary representatives of the Rohmer estate in AMerica. All inquiries regarding the rights to Fu Manchu or any of Sax Rohmer's work should be directed to these organizations.

The Society of Authors
84 Drayton Gardens
London SW10 9SB
Tel: 44 (0) 20 7373 6642
Fax: 44 (0) 20 7373 5768
Email: info@societyofauthors.org

Authors League of America
234 West 44th Street
New York, NY 10036

[Slam_Bradley]

ALSO:http://www.njedge.net/~knapp/FuFrames.htm

Many people have inquired about the rights to Sax Rohmer's work and the Fu Manchu character in particular. While many of the earlier books have passed into the public domain, the character of Fu Manchu has not. The Society of Authors in Britain specifically list Rohmer's estate on their web site. The Authors League of America does not have a web site, but they are the literary representatives of the Rohmer estate in AMerica. All inquiries regarding the rights to Fu Manchu or any of Sax Rohmer's work should be directed to these organizations.

The Society of Authors
84 Drayton Gardens
London SW10 9SB
Tel: 44 (0) 20 7373 6642
Fax: 44 (0) 20 7373 5768
Email: info@societyofauthors.org

Authors League of America
234 West 44th Street
New York, NY 10036


This simply doesn't make sense by any permutation of copyright law of which I'm aware.

[pmpknface]

Ya got me! All I do is find the info. Any help in underdtanding it is greatly appreciated! :D

[JKCarrier]

It's all hideously complicated, but my understanding is this: Copyrights (which apply to specific works -- stories, artwork, songs, etc.) eventually expire, and the the work falls into the public domain. However, Trademarks (which apply to logos, names, likenesses) remain in force indefinitely, as long as the trademark holder maintains them. So while the text of the Fu Manchu or Tarzan novels might now be in public domain, the names "Fu Manchu" and "Tarzan" (and their likenesses) are still protected.

There was a case back in the '80s where a publisher tried to print a collection of early Mickey Mouse comic strips. The strips themselves were in the public domain, but Mickey's name and likeness were still trademarked. They tried to get around it by not putting Mickey's name or picture on the cover or in any of the ads (The book was just called "The Uncensored Mouse"), but Disney's lawyers still stomped all over them.

[pmpknface]

Interesting stuff JK!

As a word of advise... don't "F" with the mouse!

Have you guys ever read Osama Tesuka's METROPOLIS? The one they adapted into a movie a few years ago? He makes fun of Disney and there is a mouse character in it. :D

[Shellhead]

As a word of advise... don't "F" with the mouse!

Did you ever read Harlan Ellison's short story collection, "Stalking the Nightmare"? It includes several interesting real-life experiences of Harlan's, including the time when he got fired by Disney right after lunch during his first day on the job. I think he closed out the story with a comment similar to yours.

[pmpknface]

HA! No, I haven't but I'll have to check it out. That may be where I got that from. I've seen Harlan speak before, and lemme tell ya - if you EVER get the chance to meet him do it. You won't regret it.

Thanks Shellhead!

[Roquefort Raider]

Tell you what my secret pleasure would really be : to see an Essential Unknown (?) Worlds of Science Fiction (I'm not sure if "Unknown" is the right word), Roy Thomas' labour of love which ran to five issues (I think).

Is George Perez's first Marvel artwork in there? (The "War Toy" story?)

Anyhoo, that would be great! (An Essential Marvel Presents (was it Presents? or Preview? It ended up being "Bizarre Adventures") would also be great.)


I would buy all of that in a minute!!!

[jam]

Marvel Preview! That's an excellent one! I have a reprint of the early Punisher story in #2.

Unknown Worlds of Science Fiction ran 6 issues, and 1 100-pg special from 1/75 to 11/76. No mention of Perez, although Brunner, Neal Adams, Frazetta, and others contributed.

I checked, and was correct. Perez's 1st work (ever) was 2 pages in Astonishing Tales #25, 1st Deathlok. 8/74.

(Glad I brought my Overstreet to work today!) :D

Hmm. I'm pretty sure Perez worked on a story called "War Toy". My memory is crap but it involved a robot soldier who, I believe, rebelled. The robot he designed turned up in a background in the fairly recent "Ultron unleashed" storyline by Busiek and Perez. I thought I was in on an in-joke but maybe I'm wrong.

[pmpknface]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure Perez worked on a story called "War Toy". My memory is crap but it involved a robot soldier who, I believe, rebelled. The robot he designed turned up in a background in the fairly recent "Ultron unleashed" storyline by Busiek and Perez. I thought I was in on an in-joke but maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe he did, but the Overstreet doesn't mention it. It would have been predated by Ast Tales #25 anyhow. Thanks for letting me know about that series tho - I'd never heard of it so now I've got something ELSE to look for! :P

[Shellhead]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure Perez worked on a story called "War Toy". My memory is crap but it involved a robot soldier who, I believe, rebelled. The robot he designed turned up in a background in the fairly recent "Ultron unleashed" storyline by Busiek and Perez. I thought I was in on an in-joke but maybe I'm wrong.

I think that I've read that War Toy story in one of Marvel's black and white magazines from the late 70's or early 80's. Bizarre Adventures? Maybe that was a reprint? My vague recollection was that the robot of that story was actually loyal buy scorned by traditional military officers who had an irrational hatred of robots. He got mothballed after the last war on Earth, until there was an alien invasion and they brought him back into service. Something like that.

[pmpknface]

The only cretit Overstreet gives Perez is in issue 20. According to this guy on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/Marvel-Preview-Bizarre-Adventures-s-20-31-6-Iss-Lot_W0QQitemZ250028047142QQihZ015QQcategoryZ35765Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
it's only a pin-up. This is the cover:

http://ronjohn.globalservers.com/ebay/cbj/ugs/biz20.jpg

However.... I just found this on ebay too:

UNKNOWN WORLDS OF SCIENCE FICTION # 3. MARVEL MAGAZINE RELEASED IN 1975, AND IN VF/NM SHAPE!!!! FEATURES ART BY ALEX NINO, GEORGE PEREZ.

http://i8.ebayimg.com/04/i/05/8e/aa/df_1.JPG

[Shellhead]

I do own that issue of Bizzarre Adventures, along with five other issues, but the cover blurb on that issue #20 makes me think that's the one with the War Toy story. I suspect that it's a reprint, and that the original version is in that Unknown Worlds of Science Fiction magazine that you mentioned.

[jam]

I do own that issue of Bizzarre Adventures, along with five other issues, but the cover blurb on that issue #20 makes me think that's the one with the War Toy story. I suspect that it's a reprint, and that the original version is in that Unknown Worlds of Science Fiction magazine that you mentioned.

On the cover of Bizarre Adventures, in the background, you can see the War Toy robot planting the American flag ...

Crumbs. Could I have been mistaken and associated the War Toy story with UWOSF instead of Bizarre Adventures? I've definately read that copy of B.A.

I am getting old ...

[Simon Garth]

War Toy was definitely in an early issue of UWOSF - at a rough guess, I'd say it was probably this one:

http://www.philsp.com/data/images/u/unknown_worlds_of_science_fiction_197503.jpg

Credits are (allegedly - I don't still have the issue) for Tony Isabella (adapting a Bob Shaw story), with art by George Perez and Rico Rival

[Slam_Bradley]

It's all hideously complicated, but my understanding is this: Copyrights (which apply to specific works -- stories, artwork, songs, etc.) eventually expire, and the the work falls into the public domain. However, Trademarks (which apply to logos, names, likenesses) remain in force indefinitely, as long as the trademark holder maintains them. So while the text of the Fu Manchu or Tarzan novels might now be in public domain, the names "Fu Manchu" and "Tarzan" (and their likenesses) are still protected.

There was a case back in the '80s where a publisher tried to print a collection of early Mickey Mouse comic strips. The strips themselves were in the public domain, but Mickey's name and likeness were still trademarked. They tried to get around it by not putting Mickey's name or picture on the cover or in any of the ads (The book was just called "The Uncensored Mouse"), but Disney's lawyers still stomped all over them.


I recognize the trademark issue, but that is alleviated by the fact that it isn't "Son of Fu Manchu." Again, the perfect example is Captain Marvel. Marvel holds the trademark to Captain Marvel. Thus DC's C.M. books can't have that title, usually being a Shazam of some sort. But they call Cap Captain Marvel inside and it doesn't implicate the trademark.

[pmpknface]

1) If anyone has the time, energy, and/or brainpower here's the US copyright law: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

2) I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it, but it might be because the character is derivitative. The DC Cap Marvel and Marvel Cap Marvel are very different, whereas the Marvel Fu Manchu is totally the same one from Rohmer, so the estate owns HIM.

Like I said, I don't know if that's it, but just a new guess. I bet there are a dozen different issues with this.

[Shellhead]

Regarding the Sax Rohmer issue, maybe the original contract that Marvel signed with the Rohmer Estate is more restrictive than the relevant intellectual property laws. If that's the case, maybe that contract has an expiration date, and the only thing holding Marvel back now is that date. Marvel published that Essential Killraven collection a year and a half ago, timed to coincide with the (then) new War of the Worlds movie, and Killraven's Amazing Adventures issues were being published during the Master of Kung-Fu run. Of course, maybe the people of the H.G. Wells estate cut a different deal, or maybe that older War of the Worlds story passed into public domain long before the Fu Manchu books.

[Kan-Man]

Essential Dracula #4 is all from B&W magazines, so it's not unprecedented.

So did a large part of Essential Moon Knight, too.

If you check out the latest Lying in the Gutters on the CBR homepage, you'll see some examples of how they doctored some of the more risque artwork for the Essentials volume. It's reminiscent of Eyes Wide Shut with convenienently placed smoke, hair and other objects that didn't exist in the originals.

[pmpknface]

That editing was so wrong... I want my nekkedness dammit! :mad: