Which X-Men are the best at hand-to-hand combat?

[Norrin Radd]

If you took away the powers of each X-Man, who would hold up best in a fight?

Here are my choices (top five):

1. Wolverine: Some would say he relies on his healing factor too much and if you took that away, he'd be in over his head. But I say he has too much experience in fighting (with his long life) not to be tops in this area.

2. Cyclops: Well, Slim is just hardcore and he is the field leader of the team, so that's gotta count for somethin'.

3. Psylocke: I don't know much about this character, but I always see her jumping around in these crazy ninja-like action poses, so she's gotta be half-decent.

4. Storm: For a while during the 80s she didn't have any powers yet she still led the X-Men and fought with them. Nuff said.

5. Shadowcat: Wasn't she taught by Wolverine, who is "the best there is at what he does"? There you go.

Discuss...

[Mikl C]

Shadowcat was possessed by Ogun for a while and had all his abilities. I think that faded though I'm not entirely sure if she retained any of that.

[Mikl C]

Plus I don;t think h2h is really Cyclops' strongest area.

[Norrin Radd]

Plus I don;t think h2h is really Cyclops' strongest area.

Hmmm...I always figured it would be. If not him, then maybe Bishop?

[CE_Rap]

You 4got Gambit. He's gotta be on the list. Even without his powers, he's too fast.

Don't really think Jubes can count just cause she hasn't done enough hand to hand. But she's supposedly an A-class gymnist and held her own against some HAND ninjas. So she's as good as...say...Dick Grayson when he first became Robin. (which, i think, is closer to the truth then initially realized;) )

Cable, Cyclops and Bishop are Military grunts, so they're like Guile/Charlie from Street fighter. Actually, more like Guile cuz they aren't really nimble.

Storm is from the streets. She dominant and godly with her powers. Without, she gets straight up ghetto on yo' ass! Bishop has a piece in this category to. (can u say "theme";) )

Wolverine and Psylocke have asian martial arts, as well as some government self defense tactics. Shadowcat is a straight up ninja, so she in this category too.

[CE_Rap]

Plus I don;t think h2h is really Cyclops' strongest area.

he's a very tactical fighter. He probably wouldn't last against the others, but he's got skills.

[Mikl C]

He JUDO CHOPS alot I think. I didn't say he was terrible, just that he's not the best.

[Norrin Radd]

Forgot Gambit. He's so good, his kinetic powers are almost secondary.

[Tazirai]

problem with alot of these x-men is that they use their powers these days almost exclusively, so it's hard to gauge, exactly who's great at H2H now.
I think Nightcrawler is up there, dude likes to get close with it, he's not superhumanly strong, but his agility and speed make it hard to hit him. unless he gets snuckered.

[Canemacar]

problem with alot of these x-men is that they use their powers these days almost exclusively, so it's hard to gauge, exactly who's great at H2H now.

True. You don't see much of what the X-men are capable of in a fight other than what they do with their powers. I think it lessens the characters, Gambit especially, since they supposedly have all these skills but we never see it.

One thing that would be cool is to see the characters integrate their powers with h2h combat and develop a personalized fighting style.

[Joe Acro]

The best hand-to-hand combatants in the Marvel Universe are Captain America and Wolverine, both receiving sevens on their power gauges in the Marvel Encyclopedia. Presumably, the same thing can be said for the Handbooks, though I don't have their more recent entries to be sure. So, were right to put Wolverine first, Norrin Radd.

Some others to consider:

I think both Bishop and Cable could fall into this category. Bishop was a security enforcement officer. In one issue of Claremont's recent run on Uncanny, the X-Men were sparring and, I believe, Wolverine said that Bishop is a better combatant than any other X-Men that were in that group. Cable was trained to be a mighty warrior. He has served as bodyguard and has held off whole armies of Apocalypse on his own.

[fishtaco]

Archangel, Wolverine, Polaris (in "She-Hulk" form), Storm, Colossus, Rogue, Psylocke, and Gambit.

[DDM]

Shadowcat was possessed by Ogun for a while and had all his abilities. I think that faded though I'm not entirely sure if she retained any of that.

Ogun's possession of Kitty is what changed her so much afterwards. She took up her Shadowcat identity & still retained her ninja abilities. Shadowcat escaped from being food in Excalibur #17 then helped Phoenix get out of the situation (the world they were on dampened their mutant powers for some reason).

[DDM]

Psylocke, as a ninja, combined with her telepathy makes her a formidable & dangerous opponent.

Storm--even without her powers--is dangerous since she was trained by Wolverine in hand-to-hand combat & how to fire a gun. Ororo has Olympic level physical skills.

Wolverine is trained in several combat techniques.

Nightcrawler's agility, ability to stick to walls, & ability to merge with the shadows makes him dangerous.

Lady Deathstrike is a ninja, but its her adamantium cyborg enhancements which are deadly.

Spiral is a master of several fighting techniques, but her magickal powers to warp the fabric of reality also makes her just as dangerous. Spiral's only weakness is she must dance to perform her spells.

[Nstar83]

WOLVERINE
Well he has military an asian martial arts training

GAMBIT
I would say has to be on the list,also can't he use his powers to upp his attributes with kinetic energy to power up shortly.not to mention acrobatic prowess

PHYLOCKE
All the Martial Arts aided by her telekinetics

CABLE
Has to be the guy was an ultimate soldier from the future or what not his skills have to be up thier

DEADPOOL
WEAPON X etc he knows how to fight pretty well

BISHOP

trained Cop XSE etc I am sure he can handle him self in a fight

[moebius]

Top 5, no powers:

1. Wolverine: Wolverine has over a century of experience, with at least 50 years of ninja and intel training. Assuming adamantium poisoning isn't hampering him (no powers) he wins.

2. Psylocke: Psylocke is a Hand-trained ninja.

3. Nightcrawler: Kurt is a world-class fencer; losing his superhuman agility would probably just make him Olympic-level. Nightcrawler lacks Psylocke or Wolverine's "killer instinct".

4. Gambit: Gambit lacks Nightcrawler's training (focused more on being a rogue than staff practice) and only has Olympic-level agility naturally.

5. Shadowcat: Kitty might not have as much natural ability or experience, but again: trained ninja.

Other good candidates are Bishop, Sage, Ororo and Beast.

[CE_Rap]

Top 5, no powers:

1. Wolverine: Wolverine has over a century of experience, with at least 50 years of ninja and intel training. Assuming adamantium poisoning isn't hampering him (no powers) he wins.

2. Psylocke: Psylocke is a Hand-trained ninja.

3. Nightcrawler: Kurt is a world-class fencer; losing his superhuman agility would probably just make him Olympic-level. Nightcrawler lacks Psylocke or Wolverine's "killer instinct".

4. Gambit: Gambit lacks Nightcrawler's training (focused more on being a rogue than staff practice) and only has Olympic-level agility naturally.

5. Shadowcat: Kitty might not have as much natural ability or experience, but again: trained ninja.

Other good candidates are Bishop, Sage, Ororo and Beast.

I hear ya a bit on the GAmbit/staff thing, but i disagree. If he's olympic level, then he and Kurt, stripped to their minumem physical selves, are pretty close to equal. On a good day, either one can defeat either one.

[RoguefanAM]

*Shakes head in a disapproving manner*

For shame, people...y'all are not giving Rogue enough credit. ;)

3/4ths of you didn't even mention her. :p

Rogue's got great H2H skills. Take X-treme X-men for example. During the period in X-treme where she lost her power's it was displayed, like most of the other great H2H combatants of the X-men, that she could hold her own against super-powered foes without her powers. It certainly helped that her previous Ms. Marvel powers required her to get up close and personal, so it's a real no-brainer that she'd have to had at least decent H2H in order to even contend with bricks of higher classes (ex: Juggernaut, She-Hulk, etc...).

Anyway...as many others have said, the best H2H contenders in the X-men include Wolverine, Psylocke, and Shadowcat. All three are trained in at least one form of martial arts.

Gambit, Storm, and Bishop as well, seem like great H2H combatants.

Nightcrawler, with his fencing skills and acrobatic experience, is an exceptional H2H fighter.

As for Cable...he seems to rely a lot on guns and I haven't really seen him perform any feats dealing with H2H...so I can't really say he's a good fighter, although the Marvel Encyclopedia does state him as a master of several forms of martial arts.

[North]

why isnt beast here are you not counting his feet as hands.

And Spiral deserves an honourable mention she had six hands afterall

[RoguefanAM]

why isnt beast here are you not counting his feet as hands.

And Spiral deserves an honourable mention she had six hands afterall

Beast is a great fighter...with his powers. Without them, however…not so much. I think his time in the X-men might of given him some knowledge in H2H, but I don't think he spends any actual time learning hand-to-hand combat (like most the other X-men do) and relies mostly on his power of superhuman agility/stamina/strength in a fight.

As for Spiral...are her arms the result of a mutation? If so, then I don't think she would be as great of a fighter if she was stripped of her powers. If not, then I think she's an expectional fighter who, even without her powers, is kicka**. :D

[DDM]

As for Spiral...are her arms the result of a mutation? If so, then I don't think she would be as great of a fighter if she was stripped of her powers. If not, then I think she's an expectional fighter who, even without her powers, is kicka**. :D

Mojo created Spiral from Richochet Rita. He gave Spiral 4 extra arms as a symbol to shame her because she looks so different from the other spineful slaves.

[Dizzy D]

Counting only actual X-Men and not members of spin-off teams and sometime allies (otherwise Mr. Sensitive, Jamie Madrox, Deadpool and so on would come into play).

Most X-Men have at least had basic hand-to-hand combat training. In fact, New Mutants and the Cyclops mini all showed that the first Danger Room lesson for all students is basically: "don't rely on your powers." Most of the X-Men will fall in this category, but there are those who didn't have any combat-training before they joined the X-Men and only were members for a short while so they didn't have the time to pick up much skill.
Others had some fighting skills before they joined the X-Men: Banshee and Bishop were police officers, while Forge, Juggernaut, Thunderbird, Paulie and Xavier all had military training.
Then there is the odd category: guys whose skills are hard to gauge because of their powers (Longshot, Mimic or Sage.)

So trying to narrow it down (in no particular order, as those usually depend on the writer at the time):

* Wolverine: he has had extensive training, from basic streetfighting to military training to special ops to his training in Japan. And even without his powers he is physically very strong and tough. His only downside is that he loses his cool a lot.

* Shadowcat: She had the training from Ogun and in Excalibur it was revealed that she was also trained by Wolverine in the martial arts developed by the Mossad. I think her only weakness is that she is relatively small, which would be a problem in a fight without her powers. Still her speed and intelligence make up for that.

* Cable: the guy has been fighting for most of his life and didn't have any impressive powers for most of it. During Casey and Weinberg runs it was shown that Cable had extensive training in the Askani martial arts and he received special training from Shin, a quasi-mystical martial artist. He also is a *very* big and strong guy, even without his powers. His biggest weakness would probably be his age by now.

* Nightcrawler: his agility and speed are his biggest assets and according to the old handbook and his appearances in Excalibur, they are all training and not part of his powers. He had a very impressive showing in Excalibur against the Warpies and therefore he makes my list. Also his experience as a fencer is a plus during hand-to-hand combat. He also keeps a cool head during fighting and knows how to taunt opponents into making mistakes. His downsides are that his fighting style is very adapted to his body (as was seen during that High Evolutionary story).

* Psylocke: Had Hand-Ninja training and was a capable fighter before that. trained by Captain UK (as seen during a training session in the Outback days)
Sadly for her, the Hand was shown as pretty incompetent during that same story in their attempts to capture Jubilee and since becoming a ninja, she has never really proven herself in an actual fight against a worthy opponent.
(And I guess this means that Revanche would make it to the Top 5 as well, as they basically had the exact same skills during the time she was around).

Honorable mentions:

* Storm: during the time she lost her powers, she quickly adapted to unarmed fighting.

* Gambit: could easily make it on the above list for his early showings, but later writers have had him using his powers more and I had to narrow it down to five (not counting Revanche, cause I count her and Psylocke as one).

*Marrow: I don't like her, but she is a very skilled fighter. She didn't have any real training, but she had to fight for survival every day during her teenage years.

*Mystique: She has shown to be a capable hand-to-hand fighter, but usually prefers stealth and manipulation. I don't think she has had the actual feats to put her in the top 5 though.

*Sabretooth: like Wolverine, he had extensive training. Most notable among his teachers, the Spider-Man villain the Foreigner, but he doesn't make the list because he is even worse than Wolverine at keeping a cool head in fights and he gets outsmarted... a lot.

[RoguefanAM]

Mojo created Spiral from Richochet Rita. He gave Spiral 4 extra arms as a symbol to shame her because she looks so different from the other spineful slaves.

Hmmm...interesting...thanks for the info DDM. :)

[North]

And what about Shatterstar? His mutant ability had nothing to do with his powers. He could *almost* win against wolverine.

[Dizzy D]

And what about Shatterstar? His mutant ability had nothing to do with his powers. He could *almost* win against wolverine.

Not an X-Man. And he has a bad track record: lost to Wolverine, lost to Cable, lost to Deadpool, nearly lost to Night Trasher if he hadn't used his energy beam.

[DDM]

* Psylocke: Had Hand-Ninja training and was a capable fighter before that. trained by Captain UK (as seen during a training session in the Outback days)
Sadly for her, the Hand was shown as pretty incompetent during that same story in their attempts to capture Jubilee and since becoming a ninja, she has never really proven herself in an actual fight against a worthy opponent.
(And I guess this means that Revanche would make it to the Top 5 as well, as they basically had the exact same skills during the time she was around).



Psylocke defeats Wolverine as Lady Mandarin in Uncanny X-Men #257; the Hand & Psylocke are successful in taking Wolverine captive, but the Hand has trouble when Psylocke cannot deal with Logan's insanity which shocks Betsy right in her mind.

[xakko]

He JUDO CHOPS alot I think. I didn't say he was terrible, just that he's not the best.
Cyke was shown to beat Wolverine a couple times hand-to-hand, early on.

granted, it was an enraged Wolverine, but still... he's got some serious chops. he doesn't show them much, but they're there.

[Omega Alpha]

Plus I don;t think h2h is really Cyclops' strongest area.

It's not the strongest, but he's really good. He though Colossus judo, has a couple of black belts, and even fought Wolverine once, in Proteus, and did well (Wolverine was not in his best mental condition, but still...)

Wolverine is by far the best hand-to-hand fighter. Shadowcat, Bishop, Storm, Psylocke, and Cyke are pretty good too; Betsy, because he has the Ninja training of Kwannon; Storm, because she lost her powers and needed to be great to survive; and the others because depending of the situation, they can't rely much on their powers; in Cyke's case, he has to train to fight with his eyes closed.

[Dizzy D]

Psylocke defeats Wolverine as Lady Mandarin in Uncanny X-Men #257; the Hand & Psylocke are successful in taking Wolverine captive, but the Hand has trouble when Psylocke cannot deal with Logan's insanity which shocks Betsy right in her mind.

And Wolverine was still half dead at the time after the Reavers had tortured him, so I'm still not impressed.

[Mikl C]

It's stupid that they make Wolverine be NOT amazing. He's trained with Ogun, fought World War 2 and has more combat experience than most of the X-Men combined. Even when going berserker it's been shown he keeps some form of fighting style. Beating him is just to show how badass the person is. It's weak.

[CE_Rap]

Unfortunately, that was Gambit's claim to fame back in the day. HE beat Wolverine in the danger room in their first one on one battle.

He's still my favorite character and it pisses me off to no end that writer's have forgotten how freaking agile this guy is. Just look at Gambit #1 (vol.1) Good Lord! The man was all over that book with flips, jumps, leaps, kicks, twirling staffs.............ah.......so depressing how whack writers have let him become

[Mikl C]

Lol Gambit spent most of his solo series in midair I think.

[North]

Not an X-Man. And he has a bad track record: lost to Wolverine, lost to Cable, lost to Deadpool, nearly lost to Night Trasher if he hadn't used his energy beam.

X Force doesnt count?

Also if were not including powers Nightcrawler should probaly get taken off the list. HIs agility is from his mutation.

[fishtaco]

And Wolverine was still half dead at the time after the Reavers had tortured him, so I'm still not impressed.She also killed maybe 50 strong men all against her, without any weapons, aside from her psi-knife, which she only used on her last victim.

[Dizzy D]

She also killed maybe 50 strong men all against her, without any weapons, aside from her psi-knife, which she only used on her last victim.

Are you talking about Uncanny X-Men #257?

[Joe Acro]

And Wolverine was still half dead at the time after the Reavers had tortured him, so I'm still not impressed.
Well, she pummeled Iron Man in the second Contest of Champions. That's got to count for something.

[streator]

gambit fares pretty well.

[Dizzy D]

Well, she pummeled Iron Man in the second Contest of Champions. That's got to count for something.

Iron Man won though... (and apparantly forgot that his armour is proof against telepaths. Then again he wasn't the only suffering from a case of the mindnumbing stupids in that series)

[Deadpooligan]

Deadpool's the best in the entire X-Men mythos. That's not just bias, he's punked Wolverine more than twice, Bullseye, Taskmaster, and more thugs than you'd ever think of.

Of course, Wolverine's got the most overall knowledge and superiorly high skill as the actual X-Men go.

Then Psylocke.

Then Gambit.

Then Shadowcat.

Everyone else is pretty much on par with each other, at least the street levelers anyway.

[Omega Alpha]

Deadpool had his ass whooped by the GLA :D

[Canemacar]

There is no shame in loosing to Squirrel Girl.

[Syzygy]

I understand Shadowcat is a really popular character, but it seems to me her abilities are being grossly overestimated. Gambit, Nightcrawler, Cable, Psylocke, Beast, and Bishop all have training and experience that are more extensive than Shadowcat's...plus they're larger and stronger.

Much has been made of the fact that Shadowcat has had "Ninja" training. Really, guys! Most superheroes have Ninjas for breakfast. If you want training in Ninjutsu, there are how-to books in the sports sections of most well-stocked bookstores. Ninjutsu is just one more fighting form among thousands, not a weapon of mass destruction.

Like most competent superheroes, Shadowcat can function without her powers. But physical combat is not her primary means of engaging the opposition. I just think it's silly to even think of putting her in the same class as fighters like Gambit, Nightcrawler, Beast, and some of the others. After all, while Psylocke, Gambit, Nightcrawler, and others were "living the life" and keeping fit with training sessions and field ops, Shadowcat was attending college and tending bar. Not exactly the way to keep your edge, is it?

Yes, she was trained by Wolverine, but so were a lot of the students at Xavier's.

Way, way, back when Xavier wanted to kick Shadowcat off the X-Men, Claremont showcased her martial arts skills to demonstrate that she was more advanced than her peers in the New Mutants. But she's no Psylocke, Elektra, or Black Widow. If she's retained the "Ogun skill" from that miniseries years and years ago, she's never really demonstrated or used these abilities, so I have to assume they've faded.

I like her too, but most superheroes can mop the floor with Ninjas, and all competent heroes can function without their powers. I'm looking at how they live and act on panel, not just what's been said about them.

Peace,
Syzygy

[The Lucky One]

Cyke was shown to beat Wolverine a couple times hand-to-hand, early on.

granted, it was an enraged Wolverine, but still... he's got some serious chops. he doesn't show them much, but they're there.

Yeah. Cyclops can win hand-to-hand against Wolverine when Logan goes berserker. If he keeps his wits about him, he'd probably take Scott down.

Can't believe no one's mentioned Longshot yet... yeah, he's not the most popular, but from a purely objective standpoint, he's absolutely one of the top dogs in fighting: all the agility of Gambit plus enhanced speed. (And no, that's not a "power"; it's just his body style.) I'd probably go with (in no particular order):

Storm
Longshot
Wolverine (when he keeps calm)
Nightcrawler
Psylocke

With Shadowcat and Gambit both pretty damn close and potential upset winners.

-D

[The Lucky One]

If she's retained the "Ogun skill" from that miniseries years and years ago, she's never really demonstrated or used these abilities, so I have to assume they've faded.

The Mimic duplicated her ninja skills in Excalibur #123 and used them to whup some ass.

-D

[Doombot330]

If we are just talking x-men then Wolverine and Deadpool have got to be 1a and 1b. After that I think evertyone else is miles behind. Collosus(spell check) is probably up there as well, he packs one hell of a punch.

Cyclops??? are you serious???

[North]

Colossus is mighty strong but his hand to hand skill sleave a lot to be desired

[Slung]

I see the top ten fighters as:

Wolverine
Storm
Kitty
Psylocke
Gambit
Longshot
Bishop
Cable
Nightcrawler

And random character who for a story arc is given amazing hand to hand combat skills. See: Cyclops, Rachel, Rogue etc.

[Doombot330]

Colossus is mighty strong but his hand to hand skill sleave a lot to be desired

that's probably true. So are we basing this on skill,on powers, or on effectiveness. It would seem that is we based it just on skill and training then the list would be completely different then if we based it on powers and the same would be true with effectiveness. It seems silly to seperate powers and skill to me so it would seem that Effectiveness would be the deciding factor. The powers would have to come into play then because obviously its almost impossible to kill Wolverine or Deadpool because of the healing factor. Wolverine has his adamantium claws as well. So would deadpool be given his weapons or are we saying that he would just have his fists since his weapons are techinically not part of him???

[Mystique's Rogue]

Gambit is really good in hand to hand combat. And yes, Rogue was awesome in Xtreme X-Men when she lost her powers.:)

[Omega Alpha]

Cyclops??? are you serious???

I don't see what is so shocking in the fact that the leader of the X-men, the one who keeps on the Danger Room when the others are having fun (well, maybe not now he's with Emma:D), the one who always was shown as working and training harder than everyone else, and who can't control his powers, so without his visor he either kills everyone in his line of sight or has to fight blind, is a great hand-to-hand fighter. Actually, it would not make any sense if he wasn't.

[jen]

I think Wolverine and Storm are probably the best. Mystique, Gambit and Psylocke would be high on the list as well. Rogue is pretty okay fighter, but mostly she relied on her super-strength. She does get her ass handed to her a lot, and she is more scrappy and unpredicatble than a true master in the art of fighting. ;)

[Syzygy]

Colossus is mighty strong but his hand to hand skill sleave a lot to be desired

Peter is actually a good choice. I suspect his training is as a boxer rather than an Eastern-style martial artist, but I see no reason why boxing should get less respect than kung-fu or ninjutsu.

Without his armor, Pete is 6'6" and 250 lbs. Supposing he knows how to throw a punch like a professional boxer (a good assumption) anybody he hits is going down.

On the other hand, Kathrine Pryde is 5'6" and 132 lbs. If she hits a solid six-footer, sounds to me like she might hurt her hand as much as hurt the guy she's fighting. On the other hand, she might know more ways of disarming a knife-wielding opponent than Peter, but still...

Mike Tyson was only 5'10" (can't recall his weight) and we know what he could do. I don't think it unreasonable to suppose that Mike Tyson could cripple or kill most of us with a single punch. So if we only assume Peter can throw a pro-boxer lever punch, he's deadly.

I still think those heroes who tend to use their body the most in combat would be the best fighters even without their power. Gambit, Psylocke, Nightcrawler, Beast...although it might take the latter two a bit of time to adjust to not having heightened agility anymore. Bishop and Cable have been fighting since virtually the day they were born, so we've got to include them too.

Anyway, my Marvel Encyclopedia: X-Men lists Wolverine as a "7" (master of all forms), Cable as a "6" (master of multiple forms), and then ties Psylocke and Shadowcat at "5" (master of a single form).

Everybody else is "4" (experience fighter) or lower, including Cyclops (4), Rogue (4), Sage (4), and Bishop (4).

Storm (3), Nightcrawler (3), Colossus (3), Gambit (3) and Beast (3) are way down there with Emma Frost (3) and Jean Grey (3) at "some training".

Some comments:

1) Vargas is also listed as a "5". So, supposedly, Vargas, Psylocke, and Shadowcat are all equally skilled!? I would have placed Vargas ahead of Psylocke (for obvious reasons) and Psylocke ahead of Shadowcat, since Psylocke is seen fighting virtually all the damn time and Shadowcat only rarely (unless she was the bouncer at that bar).

2) Funny, the two "5's" both gained their fighting skills through similar means. They're both Western women who somehow "absorbed" or "merged" with an Eastern martial arts master. Kate was "possessed" by Ogun's spirit and Psylocke was transferred into Kwannon's combat honed body (gaining, I guess, all the honed reflexes, etc). Pretty weird synchronicity there....

3) If "5" is "master of a single form of combat", and Nightcrawler is a master fencer (swordsman), shouldn't he also get a "5"? Fencing is a real martial art, like ninjutsu, kung-fu, and boxing.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Slung]

Anyway, my Marvel Encyclopedia: X-Men lists Wolverine as a "7" (master of all forms), Cable as a "6" (master of multiple forms), and then ties Psylocke and Shadowcat at "5" (master of a single form).

Everybody else is "4" (experience fighter) or lower, including Cyclops (4), Rogue (4), Sage (4), and Bishop (4).

Storm (3), Nightcrawler (3), Colossus (3), and Beast (3) are way down there with Emma Frost (3), Gambit (3), and Jean Grey (3) at "some training".

Incidentally, Vargas is also listed as a "5". So, supposedly, Vargas, Psylocke, and Shadowcat are all equally skilled!?

Peace,
Syzygy

Obviously, the "official" Marvel Encylopedia leaves something to be desired in terms of accuracy. Obviously Gambit, Storm and Nightcrawler are better fighters than Collossus, Emma Frost and Jean Grey. That being said, I'm sure Jean Grey is a better hand to hand fighter than Emma Frost (She was a stickler in X-Factor days of training to handle situations when one loses their power and was said to have been given hand to hand training by Wolverine in an old bio - which probably means nothing but, hey, that was the excuse for Storm suddenly being a fighting wiz). I'm guessing Collossus, who I wouldn't consider a "great" fighter, has more fighting experience than Jean. I remember on an old X-Men trading card that both Jean and Storm had the same fighting at "4", while Lorna and Havok were at "3" and Rachel was way down at "2". Always that the numbers seemed a little arbitrary.

[Syzygy]

All right. Here they are...at least, here they are according to the rankings in my hardcover Marvel Encyclopedia: X-Men.

Not all listed are X-Men. I’ve tried to italize all those who are NOT “formal” X-Men.


Rank #7: Master of All Forms of Combat:
1. Wolverine
2. Ogun
3. Doop (!?)

Rank #6: Master of Multiple Forms of Combat:
1. Cable
2. Stryfe
3. Sabertooth
4. Orphan
5. Domino
6. Khan the Conquerer
7. Shatterstar
8. Spiral

Rank #5: Master of a Single Form of Combat:
1. Psylocke
2. Shadowcat
3. Toad (!?)
4. Vargas
5. Scalphunter
6. Ka-Zar
7. Silver Samurai

Rank #4: Experienced Fighter:
1. Bishop
2. Cyclops
3. Longshot
4. Rogue
5. Sage
6. Sunfire
7. Mystique
8. Blink (Exiles)
9. Donald Pierce
10. Callisto
11. Magick (New Mutants)
12. Gladiator
13. Corsair
14. Marrow
15. Sabra
16. Warpath
17. Apocalypse
18. Fantomex
19. Omega Red
20. Viper

Rank #3: Some Training:
1. Archangel
2. Banshee
3. Beast
4. Cannonball
5. Chamber
6. Colossus
7. Dazzler
8. Emma Frost
9. Gambit
10. Jean Grey
11. Husk
12. Iceman
13. Juggernaut
14. Nightcrawler
15. Northstar
16. Polaris
17. Storm
18. Thunderbird III
19. Joseph
20. Mimic
21. Rachel Summers (Grey)
22. Thunderbird I
23. Magneto
24. Quicksilver
25. Scarlet Witch
26. Sebastian Shaw
27. Karma
28. Magma
29. Moonstar
30. Sunspot
31. Wolvesbane
32. M
33. Captain Britain

Rank #2: Normal:
1. Forge
2. Havok
3. Jubilee
4. Stacy X
5. Xorn
6. Changling
7. Dust
8. Lifeguard
9. Maggot
10. Celia Reyes
11. Slipsteam
12. Mr. Sinister
13. Kid Omega

Rank #1: Poor:
1. Professor X
2. Gateway
3. Lockheed
4. Cypher

Peace,
Syzygy

[Dizzy D]

Rank #6: Master of Multiple Forms of Combat:
2. Stryfe


That's odd... very odd. The whole point always was that Stryfe always had his powers and never needed to learn to fight. Methinks somebody took the clone-idea a bit to serious.


3. Toad (!?)
Not as odd as Stryfe, though I don't think his fighting style is a formal form of combat, he has grown to be a pretty effective combatant in recent years.

12. Gladiator
Would have expected to seem him rank higher, same for Sabra, Viper and Fantomex. Viper especially.

Rank #2: Normal:
1. Forge


Again odd, he did very well in all unarmed fights he was in (against his fellow X-Men during the Muir Island saga, against the Morlocks and against Mystique during Legion's quest).

Rank #1: Poor:
1. Professor X


And here's the biggest problem with the list. Xavier was a soldier and has taught the original X-Men all about fighting. Being paralysed has nothing to do with his skills.

The writers of that book should really have thought a bit more about those rankings.

[jarrod]

Yikes, those rankings are way off... out of the X-Men, tops would be (imo)...

Rank 7
-Wolverine

Rank 6
-Bishop
-Sage
-Cable

Rank 5
-Psylocke
-Nightcrawler
-Gambit
-Longshot
-Shadowcat

Rank 4
-almost everyone else... seriously.

[KnockBlock]

I read the X-Men volume of the Marvel Encyclopedia before. I understand why some of you guys would disagree with some things.

Here is a site I looked at http://marvellegends.net/pages/PowerRatings.htm

Tell me what you think if you can comment on it.

[Omega Alpha]

I would classify like that:

Rank 7:
Wolverine

Rank 6:
Cable

Rank 5:
Psylocke, Shadowcat

Rank 4:
Cyclops, Bishop, Mystique, Sage, Rogue, Storm (she was powerless, so she used to fight a lot), Gambit

Almost everyone else is 3.

[An Average Madri]

Madrox is pretty good at fighting, eh? He sent his clones everywhere.

[The Lucky One]

Rank 4:
Cyclops, Bishop, Mystique, Sage, Rogue, Storm (she was powerless, so she used to fight a lot), Gambit

When Storm was powerless, she was able to go toe-to-toe with Wolverine in a fight and hold her own; the only one who was shown as able to outmanuever her in a practice battle was Longshot.

Madrox is pretty good at fighting, eh? He sent his clones everywhere.

While I love Madrox, this is a question of overall fighting ability, not skill in using powers. And Jamie, fighting alone, has never been any great shakes; even WITH dupes, his style is just to outnumber people and beat them down, not to bust out with the kung-fu grip.

-D

[Omega Alpha]

When Storm was powerless, she was able to go toe-to-toe with Wolverine in a fight and hold her own; the only one who was shown as able to outmanuever her in a practice battle was Longshot.


But she's not a master of any form of combat (see what each rank means), and if Wolverine is really in control and trying, he beats her (and most) easily.

And Longshot did what he did because, well, he got lucky:)

[jarrod]

What, do the rankings indicate only combat training, or overall melee combat skill? Because the latter takes much more into consideration...

[Xanrn]

Yeah.

I think Wolverine pretty much taught all X-men that H2H is needed.

They teach it to the kids at the School.

[Cowlander]

main problems with the ranking is they assume more equals better. And they throw the word Master around WAYYYY to easily. Wolverine was a Samurai for years but theirs no way hes a master of Kendo/Iaido on the same level as Silver Samurai. Its the Supes vs Flash argument, Supes isnt and shouldnt be as fast as the flash simply because hes supes. Flash specialises in speed so he has the focused training and power focus to get that edge.

Someone like SS has fought mutliple styles in multple situations, hes survived by adapting his art around the fact that there're different styles out there. Somone who focuses on one art isnt less because they havent gone from master to master. It doesnt matter how many styles you know its how good YOU are what you know.

The ranking shouldnt be based on number of Arts the characters know but simply on their overall skill period. Its the constant problem with those ranking definitions, its worded to make a couple characters look extra badass. But at the expense of everyone else.

Cap is listed rightfully as a 7...do you honestly think hes a master of EVERY form of martial arts on the planet. Nope but hes taking his boxing/judo hybrid style to such a level he gets the rank. Apply that reasoning to everyone else and the list would make a whole lot more sense than what marvel published.

IMHO the list is something like

Wolverine

Gambit/ Psylocke / Nightcrawler / Cable

Beast / Shatterstar

Cyke(dont forget he has blindfighting)/Storm / Bishop

Kitty / Collossus(if they just confirmed his training he would be on the same tier as beast, but they havent so you go with feats etc)

Rogue

I know I'm missing a couple. I dont think Sage belongs anywhere near this list since its without powers. Her fighting ability is seriously tied to her mutation. Beast/ Kurt etc arent as tied as she was they can adapt way easier than she can.

[jarrod]

I know I'm missing a couple. I dont think Sage belongs anywhere near this list since its without powers. Her fighting ability is seriously tied to her mutation. Beast/ Kurt etc arent as tied as she was they can adapt way easier than she can.
It's somewhat hard to do that though, since Sage's brain is hardwired a certain way due to her abilities. Photographic reflexes/control and computerlike analysis/recall certainly give her quite an edge (arguably to the point of matching nearly anyone in the MU), but she's had plenty of real world combat experience too, certainly more than insta-ninjas like Betsy or Kitty... I'm not convinced she'd be quite so helpless if she suddenly had to think normally.

[The Lucky One]

And Longshot did what he did because, well, he got lucky:)

No, he did it because he's faster than any X-Man there's ever been outside of Northstar.
;)

-D

[Veritas]

Those official Marvel rankings change so often it's hard to keep track. On the first series of Marvel trading cards that included them, Gambit's strength was at a 1. The only other character to have a 1 in strength at the time was Jubilee. Gimme a break. Haha. Then, in the second or third series, Gambit's strength was upgraded to a 2, and his fighting ability at a respectable 5. Then everything started to fluctuate as time progressed. Those stats Marvel uses are ridiculous, they aren't accurate to what the actual comics portray nor do they prove any point.

Without his powers, Gambit has fought Bishop and won easily. Granted it was in X-Treme X-men, but still. He's also taken on Wolverine and won, taken on Sabertooth and won. Hell, Gambit's taken on Gladiator 1v1. His AoA counterpart killed Colossus. What's been done to Gambit's character in recent years (starting with Austen's run on X-Men) is really kinda lame. Anyway, I digress. I guess it shows he's one of my favourite characters. Haha.

My choices for the top five hand-to-hand fighters in the X-Men would be:
Wolverine - There's no doubt he's the most experienced fighter amongst the team. It's really not even up for debate.

Gambit - Known master of savate, and extremely agile.

Psylocke/Revanche - Master of martial arts aka ninja skills.

Warpath - Though he's still relatively untested, I wanted to throw a wildcard into the mix.

Sabertooth/Mystique - I don't like the idea of considering these two X-Men, but since they're featured in one of the current incarnations and they are both very able physical combatants (moreso than the rest of the options IMO). Hopefully neither will last long on the teams.

Overall, the X-Men really don't have many honest to goodness fighters and rely mostly on their powers in a fight. Avengers teams are the teams with the heavy hitters in terms of physical combat.

[Darkwave]

Rank #1: Poor:
1. Professor X


Weird -- wasn't the professor shown kicking multiple asses in Legion Quest? During the flashback scene where he and Magneto got into a bar fight?

I'm assuming the "poor" ranking is based on the fact that he was paralyzed at the time of the ranking.

[drwho]

MY list

1. Wolverine- he has been fighting with his hands and claws forever
2. Storm-went wicked bad ass with the morloks
3. psylocke-programmed into a ninja
4. Kitty- trained by logan

That is the top 4.

[Syzygy]

It's somewhat hard to do that though, since Sage's brain is hardwired a certain way due to her abilities. Photographic reflexes/control and computerlike analysis/recall certainly give her quite an edge (arguably to the point of matching nearly anyone in the MU), but she's had plenty of real world combat experience too, certainly more than insta-ninjas like Betsy or Kitty... I'm not convinced she'd be quite so helpless if she suddenly had to think normally.

I know you like Sage, Jarrod, but I've got to disagree with you here. With their powers of photographic reflexes, Taskmaster may be a "7", and Sage may be a "6", but if their powers were neutralized, inhibited, or decimated, their brain and nervous system would not function the in same way. They could no more access their fighting skills than Xavier might access his telepathy or Havok his energy beams.

It's a funny concept, because for almost every other character, fighting ability is a learned skill, and has nothing to do with powers. There are a few powers, however, that involve accelerated skill acquisition, such as Tasky's and Sage's. My guess is that without their mutant energies "powering" their brain and nervous system, their "skills" would fade. Similarly, Cypher might lose all the languages he's acquired (if he were still alive, that is).

Since Shadowcat and Psylocke--the "insta-ninjas" (I like that term!)--got their skills through mystical means (Ogun and Spiral), they still retain them when they're mutant powers are turned off. Whether or not their skills could be erased by magic is anybody's guess.

Meanwhile, I suspect the Fighting ranking means pure skill, such as the knowledge of particular moves, and the facility to execute them. Obviously, there are other considerations. Elektra may be a "6"--master of multiple forms--but she stands no chance whatsoever against the Abomination or Quicksilver. Similarly, I suspect that if Kitty and Peter lost their powers and got into a fight, Pete would win. He hits her once, she's in the hospital, while his ability to soak up damage, even as a human, is probably prize-fighter level.

Just my thoughts.

Peace,
Syzygy

[steve2275]

Colossus is mighty strong but his hand to hand skill sleave a lot to be desired

he and katya need sparring time together

[Kal]

Cyke(dont forget he has blindfighting)/Storm

I just don't see how they are on the same level...

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/spotlight/storm29.jpg

'Nuff said.

[Jeff-E]

I'd say Bishop is the best in hand to hand, followed by Cable, Storm, then Wolverine, Psylocke, and Cyke. Had Wolvie not trained Nightcrawler, and Shadowcat proving he's more than the claws he wouldn't have made the list.

Gambit as far as skill goes, I don't think even ranks in the top 10 to 20 as far as hand to hand, however what he has on the others is sneakyness, and cunning. Hand to hand, alot of Xmen would put a whuppin on Gami, but give him something to charge, and his pickpocket skills can be reversed and next thing you know your butt explodes!

[Omega Alpha]

I just don't see how they are on the same level...

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/spotlight/storm29.jpg

'Nuff said.

Do you know that, according to Madelyne herself, she was manipulating him all the time during that fight to make him lose, right?

[Shane Shooter]

Here's My Ranking:

1) Wolverine
2) Psylocke
3) Storm
4) Rogue
5) Cable
6) Kitty
7) Bishop
8) Gambit
9) Cyclops
10) Nightcrawler
11) Beast
12) Colossus
13) Emma
14) Iceman
Angel

[Joe Acro]

Do you know that, according to Madelyne herself, she was manipulating him all the time during that fight to make him lose, right?
Retcons, retcons. They couldn't have just stuck with him subconsciously wanting to lose?

[Slung]

Here's My Ranking:

1) Wolverine
2) Psylocke
3) Storm
4) Rogue
5) Cable
6) Kitty
7) Bishop
8) Gambit
9) Cyclops
10) Nightcrawler
11) Beast
12) Colossus
13) Emma
14) Iceman
Angel

How is Rogue a better fighter than ninja master Kitty or the excellent fighting styles of Gambit? How is Cyclops a better fighter than Nightcrawler, who relies heavily on his hand to hand in almost every battle. How is Emma, a woman who relies soley on her mental powers (and would sneer at getting down and dirty in a fight), a better fighter than Bobby who has been training to be a little x-soldier since he was 15? What about Longshot, who is arguably one of the best fighters the X-Men have every had on their team. Or Jean Grey, who has had hand to hand combat training with Wolverine but is hardly asked to use it (so would she know how to be a great fighter but be really rusty?)

[Mikl C]

Jean punched one of those annoying neo people! woo!

[Shane Shooter]

How is Rogue a better fighter than ninja master Kitty or the excellent fighting styles of Gambit? How is Cyclops a better fighter than Nightcrawler, who relies heavily on his hand to hand in almost every battle. How is Emma, a woman who relies soley on her mental powers (and would sneer at getting down and dirty in a fight), a better fighter than Bobby who has been training to be a little x-soldier since he was 15? What about Longshot, who is arguably one of the best fighters the X-Men have every had on their team. Or Jean Grey, who has had hand to hand combat training with Wolverine but is hardly asked to use it (so would she know how to be a great fighter but be really rusty?)

-I love Kitty as a fighter but I was taking into consideration the many people Rogue has absorbed over the years the residual effects have to give her the advantage over Kitty

-Cyclops and Kurt ... this was close for me but I just felt that Cyclops is better trained HAND to HAND ..... now in a sword fight give me Nightcrawler ... but I think Cyke can take him out he's more trained

- Ok I admit EMMA BOBBY and ANGEL I was getting kinda lazy and just put'em up there. A hand to hand fight between these three would be pretty lame so who cares who's the best of these 3, it'd be like an NBA fist fight lol

- Longshot I didn't really count as an X-man

- Jean sucks at fighting ....even as Phoenix ...but she's dead so I forgot about her

[Omega Alpha]

Retcons, retcons. They couldn't have just stuck with him subconsciously wanting to lose?

Even if it was that, he would not be at the top of his conditions, and that's why he would have lost. Anyway, no one says that Wolverine sucks because he got his ass kicked by Cyke after Proteus messed up with him and he was not in his best state of mind.

[Slung]

- Jean sucks at fighting ....even as Phoenix ...but she's dead so I forgot about her

She doesn't suck, she could kick my butt at hand to hand combat. We've seen her parry blows, throw punches and kicks and even help train students hand to hand combat (in X-Factor). She is a more solid hand to hand fighter than both Bobby or Emma. She isn't the best, far from it - but she isn't the worst either. And *psst* she isn't dead - she was resurrected in Endsong - she just is on a cosmic journey to literally find herself.

Longshot was definitely an X-Man. And a cool one at that! He's in my top ten! He can pretty much take out any of the other X-Men in hand to hand combat.

[eggie]

What about Warpath? He is great at h2h...his powers play perfectly into h2h combat. I would definitely agree with Nightcrawler, Gambit, Wolverine, Psylocke, and Colossus being on the list.

[fishtaco]

Chuck Norris is the best X-Man at hand-to-hand combat.

[The Lucky One]

- Longshot I didn't really count as an X-man

...because...?

(And be warned, if the answer is "Because I wasn't reading back then" or "I haven't read those issues," you're due for a swift kick in the 'nads.)

Longshot was definitely an X-Man. And a cool one at that! He's in my top ten! He can pretty much take out any of the other X-Men in hand to hand combat.

True that. Without luck powers, he'd probably rank slightly above Gambit in fighting ability (his physiological speed giving him the edge). With luck powers... well, let's not even talk about that.

-D

[rwsmith]

Mine, based upon the current line-ups:

1) Wolverine
2) Cable
3) Mystique
4) Sabretooth
5) Warpath
6) Nightcrawler
7) Shadowcat
8) Beast
9) Rogue
10) Colossus
11) Cyclops
12) Havok
13) Cannonball
14) Iceman
15) Emma Frost
16) Polaris
17) Darwin
18) Xavier

Don't think I forgot anybody.

[pharoahe22]

In the entire X-men Mythos, the best are:

Wolverine's number one without a doubt. He is trained in nearly every fighting style and in using almost every weapon known to man. He's got more fighting experience than most of the x-men combined. The only other character in all of Marvel that is on the same level as Wolverine is Captain America. Both are rated to be a 7 out of 7 on the fighting skills/h2h combat scale.

Deadpool is next. Deadpool beat Wolverine once, but Wolverine's healing was shot to hell, and he had no adamantium. It was after the Magneto incident. Wolverine's shown plenty of times that he can take Deadpool out though, an example being when they were fighting, Wolverine pinned Deadpool to the ground and stabbed the ground inches from his face to warn him to back off. There was another time that Wolverine and Deadpool fought, and Wolverine wound up gutting him, but Deadpool wasn't in a great state of mind @ that point. Deadpool was once rated on the same fighting skill level as Cap and Wolverine, but Marvel dropped him down a level to level 6 in the stats.

Cable is a great h2h combatant with great experience. He was also once rated a level 7 combatant, but he too was dropped down to a level 6 in the stats. Cable and Deadpool are about even, but I give Deadpool the slight edge in h2h.

Bishop is a level 6 fighter, and he's studied the moves of some of history's greatest fighters.

Psylocke is rated a level 5 fighter...the same as Shang-chi, which means she is a master of one fighting style. I belive she should be a level 6 fighter though.

Shadowcat is an excellent fighter...she has skill, but she lacks the aggressiveness. She is rated as a level 4 fighter, but I think she's closer to level five, she just hasn't mastered any particul style yet.

Gambit was once ranked as a level 5 fighter...but recently, Marvel dropped his skill level down to a level 3...I have no idea why.

Sage could potential be as good as anyone, but it's due to her power...I think if her powers were neutralized, and she was forced to rely solely on her combat experience, she'd be a high 4.

[Canemacar]

Gambit is a known master of Savate. Therefore, he should be at least a 5 on Marvel's ranking system. But since Marvel's PTB apparently hate Gambit, he's been knocked down a few ranks.

[Frank]

Wolverine is a samurai warlord, a master of kung fu and dozen of little known martial arts, and can go down-and-dirty with the best.

Asking who`s the best X-Men fighter is like asking who`s crappiest American President ever. ;)

[Affinity]

Where are we getting these "ratings" from?

[Omega Alpha]

Mine, based upon the current line-ups:

1) Wolverine
2) Cable
3) Mystique
4) Sabretooth
5) Warpath
6) Nightcrawler
7) Shadowcat
8) Beast
9) Rogue
10) Colossus
11) Cyclops
12) Havok
13) Cannonball
14) Iceman
15) Emma Frost
16) Polaris
17) Darwin
18) Xavier

Don't think I forgot anybody.

Beast, Colossus and Nightcrawler should not be higher than Cyclops. They fight mostly based on their powers. Pete particularly is not known for his technique, but for just go and punch everybody.


Asking who`s the best X-Men fighter is like asking who`s crappiest American President ever;)

Yeah, there's so many that deserve the title...:D

[Slung]

Shadowcat is an excellent fighter...she has skill, but she lacks the aggressiveness. She is rated as a level 4 fighter, but I think she's closer to level five, she just hasn't mastered any particul style yet.

Gambit was once ranked as a level 5 fighter...but recently, Marvel dropped his skill level down to a level 3...I have no idea why.

Shadowcat should definitely be level 5 - isn't she a ninja master? And Gambit should definitely be 5 as well. At 3 he is at the same level as Polaris. And, that is ridiculous.

Xavier should not be so low on the list either. He should be at least a 3 and more likely a 4. Just because he has been paralyzed doesn't mean he doesn't have extensive hand to hand training.

As a side note - I remember the old Jim Lee Trading Cards in 1992 listed Gambit as 5 (I guess he was in his prime). Strangely, IIRC, it listed Cyclops as 3 and Storm and Jean Grey both as 4 while Havok was give a paltry 2. Rogue was listed as 5, which I think is silly, since she is not the master of any form of hand to hand combat.

[RoguefanAM]

Well since everyone else is posting their list...:D

1. Wolverine
2. X-23
3. Cable
4. Bishop
5. Psylocke
6. Shadowcat
7. Gambit
8. Storm
9. Cyclops
10. Rogue
11. Nightcrawler
14. Colossus
15. Warpath
16. Jean Grey
17. Havok
18. Polaris
19. Emma Frost
20. Beast
21. Iceman
22. Marvel Girl II
23. Hellion and pretty much what's left of the Academy Students :rolleyes:

Where are we getting these "ratings" from?

The X-Men: Marvel Encyclopedia...or at least that's where I'm getting most of my 'ratings' from. :)

[Deadpooligan]

I'm assuming the "poor" ranking is based on the fact that he was paralyzed at the time of the ranking.

That's what I don't like about the encyclopedias. It's biased based on what's out, not on the entire history. X should be at least three if not four, since he's ex-military.

Example: They have two pages on Agent X, but a third of a page on Deadpool. Cable is also called Soldier X.

Guess who's back in popularity now.

Deadpool is next. Deadpool beat Wolverine once, but Wolverine's healing was shot to hell, and he had no adamantium. It was after the Magneto incident. Wolverine's shown plenty of times that he can take Deadpool out though, an example being when they were fighting, Wolverine pinned Deadpool to the ground and stabbed the ground inches from his face to warn him to back off. There was another time that Wolverine and Deadpool fought, and Wolverine wound up gutting him, but Deadpool wasn't in a great state of mind @ that point. Deadpool was once rated on the same fighting skill level as Cap and Wolverine, but Marvel dropped him down a level to level 6 in the stats.

Those fights you stated: Wolverine #88, and Deadpool #27, right? Right.

In Wolvie 88, regardless of Wolvie's healing factor condition, Deadpool took one hit, then stabbed out Wolverine's lungs and ran off to get Copycat. Factor or not, that knocked the sails out of him but good, enough for Deadpool to continue pummeling him.

Though some don't count DP 27 as a win feat, Deadpool was one step ahead of him the entire fight, managing to manhandle him in mid-air and on the ground. He kept ahead until he cured his hallucinations, and got gutted. He totally had him. Dr. Bong even made short work of Shadowcat.

They had a rematch in the Wolverine Annual '99, where they teamed up against a werewolf-man, and grabbed a brew. They fought again in Wolverine #154-155. Deadpool had him KO'd by his crew, and fought him to a semi-standstill later. Wolverine took out the werewolf-man singlehandedly when DP wouldn't, and later took out DP's entire merc crew. Wolverine shows he wasn't just jobbing to DP there.

I'm starting to think Deadpool jobs to everybody though (but T-Ray), since he hardly concentrates; he's cracking jokes and ranting while he throws out random moves and shots. Just imagine if he didn't wisecrack. Sure, my name might be Wolveriggins, and people wouldn't be big fans of Nicieza as much anymore, but X-Force and Cable would be dead, Siryn would be his wife, and no street leveler would be able to take him.

[Affinity]

Well since everyone else is posting their list...:D

1. Wolverine
2. X-23
3. Cable
4. Bishop
5. Psylocke
6. Shadowcat
7. Gambit
8. Storm
9. Cyclops
10. Rogue
11. Nightcrawler
14. Colossus
15. Warpath
16. Jean Grey
17. Havok
18. Polaris
19. Emma Frost
20. Beast
21. Iceman
22. Marvel Girl II
23. Hellion and pretty much what's left of the Academy Students :rolleyes:



The X-Men: Marvel Encyclopedia...or at least that's where I'm getting most of my 'ratings' from. :)
Oh, alright. Thanks for clarifying.

[Callisto]

And Wolverine was still half dead at the time after the Reavers had tortured him, so I'm still not impressed.

and wolverine has a healing factor, which should have pretty much taken care of any damage he sustained from his encounter with the reavers. psylocke defeating him is no small accomplishment especially when you consider how many times wolverine has endured worser assaults and still managed to come out on top.

[Affinity]

Wolverine would have died right then and there if not for Jubilee's rescuing him.

[The Lucky One]

Wolverine is a samurai warlord, a master of kung fu and dozen of little known martial arts, and can go down-and-dirty with the best.

Except he rarely remembers any of that stuff... he just gets pissed off and starts slashing, which is why Cyclops can usually beat him hand-to-hand.

When Wolverine stays focused and concentrates on a fight, on the other hand, he's ace. Ironically, that's most often displayed when he's training students (Generation X, New X-Men), instead of during actual fights.

-D

[CE_Rap]

Wolverine would have died right then and there if not for Jubilee's rescuing him.

That's right on the money.

Except he rarely remembers any of that stuff... he just gets pissed off and starts slashing, which is why Cyclops can usually beat him hand-to-hand.

When Wolverine stays focused and concentrates on a fight, on the other hand, he's ace. Ironically, that's most often displayed when he's training students (Generation X, New X-Men), instead of during actual fights.



That's what happend in Uncanny X-Men #127, when the X-men got their asses handed to them by Proteus. Cyke provoked all teh X-Men to remind them that, even angered, they have to keep their heads. Cyclops took the rest of the team and beat them easily.

BUT--consider they were still weakened by Proteus/ they were all hot headed because of their horrid loss/ they were exhausted from battle and from tracking Proteus/ they hadn't quite gained the experience in dealing with such a massive threat and maintaining their composure.

Fast forward a bit, and EVERYONE evolves in their fighting skills. I give Cyclops props for not being a total pushover in the h2h department, but in a non powered fight, Storm would own him.

Wolverines come a long way and is not teh same animal that almost killed Kurt for kissing Mariko on the cheek. (Uncanny #143). He knows how to keep his composure a lot better now and is able to handle himself based on teh opponent. So in a non powered fight, he's taking Cyke down. That's official.

Beast, Colossus and Nightcrawler should not be higher than Cyclops. They fight mostly based on their powers. Pete particularly is not known for his technique, but for just go and punch everybody.

I agree with you except for Nightcrawler. Again, Cyclops is a military grunt. Nightcrawler has a sick agility he acquired from years of training. He's got speed, AND he's got a prehensal tail that is so nimble, it can weild a sword.

Nightcrawler is tied with Gambit because, on their own, either one has the potential to beat the other. And they BOTH own Cyke. Yet, i give the edge to Gambit (unbiased, i swear) because he has training and he's street smart.

That's what I don't like about the encyclopedias. It's biased based on what's out, not on the entire history. X should be at least three if not four, since he's ex-military.

Example: They have two pages on Agent X, but a third of a page on Deadpool. Cable is also called Soldier X.

Guess who's back in popularity now.

Those books suck ass. Their perfect at one thing only: Inaccuracy.

[CE_Rap]

My list focuses one both strengths and weaknesses. This is how it goes.

1)Wolverine/Deadpool: They are both amazing fighters when at their peak. Deadpool has beaten Wolverine plenty and vice versa. I give Wolvie the edge because Deadpool lacks the focus. He gets the job done, sure, but as Deadpooligan put it, he would slay EVERYONE if he was focused (which is probably why Marvel made him insane:p ). That is a good part of his strategy, though, because it confuses his opponents and makes him incredibly unpredictable. Then you have Logan who is incredibly dangerous, even when he loses his temper. The guy has depended on his healing factor very heavily since becoming an X-man, but he is always a step ahead of his opponent, through both speed and ingenuity. Plus, he's like 140 years old so he's had the time to perfect his skills. On any given day, either one can own the other.

2)Cable: Dude's got mad squabbles. Training out the wazoo! He can operate damn near anything, knows how to use damn near anything, and knows how to fight, damn near everyway. He's like a CIA/Navy SEAL guy: pretty much the deadliest mother $#@#er you could fight. He's very close to Wolv/Dpool except they would kill him in a heartbeat, while Cable would render them inoperable before resorting to killing. Though he, too, can do it in a heartbeat.

3)Psylocke: Limited military training as a British lady/ a friggin' nightmare as a highly skilled ninja assassin. She can use edged weaponry, pressure points, really agile and and quick--pretty much lethal in close combat. Basically, she's lucky she's got Kwannon's body. Plus, she will kill if she needs to, with little remorse.

4)Gambit: Agilty, agility, agility. THat boy has speed! He is naturally adept with agility(even without powers). In that department, he and Psylocke are equal. But it appears that Kwannon was one of the deadliest women in the world (Black Mamba, eat your heart out:p ), so she's gotta be above him. Gambit can fence, use pole arms, and his limbs. As i said, i give the edge to Gambit above the fuzzy elf because of the street smarts. It makes him a sneakier fighter. It's the only thing that seperates them. It is also the only thing that keeps him above many other fighters on the list. He's really good at getting into your head and exploiting your weaknesses.

5)X-23: trained in a myriad of martial arts tactics, killed a small army all by herself, and she was only about 7 years old. She's TOO full of killer instinct not to be top 5, but lacks the focus that some of the others have. She doesn't play mind games with her opponents, she is straight forward. The others above her would easily get into her head, piss her off, then take her down as she mindlessly attacks.

6)Shadowcat: She's a ninja too. She gained a mystical advantage/edge from Ogun, so she knows what it takes to be a master. She is skilled in throwing knives and shuriken, is small and quite quick. She's just not lethal. Her killer instinct is low. So against Bishop, she'd have difficulty denting him. She's much faster, however, so she clearly has the advantage.

7)Longshot: i almost didn't put him on the list because he was egineered to be an agile ass-kicker, where as everyone else trained and learned it through discipline. It makes things a bit easy for him by comparison(slightly cheating). But he was an X-Man, so this is where i think he would fall.

As mentioned, he is crazy agile. Technically, more so then Nightcrawler, Gambit and Psylocke. Very adept and knowledgible in fighting and throwing knives. No real discipline, though, and not much killer instinct. Without the luck, the people above him on the list are taking him down through sheer wit, mindgames, and ruthlessness. Yet he is very fast, so he can take many oponents down with wasted effort.

8)Storm: Her killer instinct is not low. Not anymore. We've seen Storm do what she's gotta do many times, and that includes being ready to kill. She's a street fighter, and is very direct. "The strong silent type" in that she doesn't really talk during battle. She's in the zone when she fights. But she's not that agile and has no "real" fighting discipline. That is what makes Kitty a better fighter. If both of them didn't know each other and fought, Kitty could take her down before Storm would be able to kill her. (if it came to that) Also, Storm's a tactical fighter, wasting little to no energy. But Longshot gets the edge because she will waste more energy than him.

9)Nightcrawler: He's an incredibly talented acrobat. THat gives him an edge. He knows how to fight, he is very agile, and his tail adds to his offensive. He's a quick thinker, and that gives him an advantage as well. As i said before, he has the natural agility to contend with Gambit, but Gambit is street smart. I get the impression Kurt has the honor to fight fairly. Gambit's not like that. He will mentally rape you and do it with a smile. He has more agility than Storm, but she has a sense of ruthlessness when in a serious fight.
That gives her an edge.

10)Bishop:He's well trained and is an adept thinker in a battle. Plus he's got killer instinct and is also a street fighter. He's a bit hot-headed though and this hurts him sometimes. But he's physically big and strong, so he has the endurance to stay in the fight. He also has a lot of power, but power means $#!% if you can't hit someone. That's why Kurt is above him. He can avoid his attacks and keep chopping him down like a tree. The thing is, if Bishop gets a clean shot, Kurt's in trouble.

11)Cyclops:the well rounded fighter who is a military grunt. He's as good as an army man, able to take down an opponent several ways. He's level headed and thinks tactically, so he can hold his own. He's low because he has neither the killer instinct nor the agility found in asian martial arts. He needs the opponent to stay on the ground in front of him to really be a threat, and that makes him weaker. He'd be smart enough to enrage X-23 to the point of mindlessly attacking, but that would be a horrible mistake for him because her speed would slaughter him.

12)Warpath: This was a tough one. I know, I know, everyone expected him higher, but let me explain.

No real discipline.....put PLENTY of killer instinct. He's a demon up close, will slit your throat, and if he has no knife, will crack your neck instead. He's got the agility thanks to the heightened metabolism his super speed gains him, so without powers, he'd have just enough agility to get the job done. Everyone else is higher because they are essentially faster than him and have more discipline. Also, he's even more of a hot-head than Bishop. Therefore, he needlessly wastes his energy. Cyclops would tactically know how to abuse this, and that's why Warpath didn't make the cut higher. His heightened metabolism is a double edged sword because he burns energy faster. Again, i think Cyke would realize this and force Jimmy to tire out by just playing chicken. But Warpath is definitely an ass-kicking demon!!


Everyone else is unfortunately insignificant in h2h because they either rely too heavily on their super strength (Rogue/Colossus/Emma/Iceman/etc.) super agility (Beast/etc.) or super powers (Havok/Polaris/Jean Grey/etc.) They can fight, but not like the twelve.

[The Lucky One]

7)Longshot: i almost didn't put him on the list because he was egineered to be an agile ass-kicker, where as everyone else trained and learned it through discipline.

Then you'll have to bump Gambit down too, since his enhanced agility is a power as well.

-D

[Dizzy D]

When Storm was powerless, she was able to go toe-to-toe with Wolverine in a fight and hold her own; the only one who was shown as able to outmanuever her in a practice battle was Longshot.



While I love Madrox, this is a question of overall fighting ability, not skill in using powers. And Jamie, fighting alone, has never been any great shakes; even WITH dupes, his style is just to outnumber people and beat them down, not to bust out with the kung-fu grip.

-D

He had one of his clones go to that Shao-Lin temple in his mini though. And the college classes on anatomy that he followed, card-throwing and all other skills, I think he may be up on this list, were he an X-Man.

[Canemacar]

Then you'll have to bump Gambit down too, since his enhanced agility is a power as well.

-D

Gambit would still have had to train with it once his powers manifested(and he has),whereas Longshot was simply created that way.

[Dizzy D]

and wolverine has a healing factor, which should have pretty much taken care of any damage he sustained from his encounter with the reavers. psylocke defeating him is no small accomplishment especially when you consider how many times wolverine has endured worser assaults and still managed to come out on top.

And the whole ongoing plotpoint at that time was that the healing factor wasn't working anymore and that Wolverine was but a shadow of himself: , Jubilee thinks that he's dying the way he keeps passing out all the time, he himself notes in his fight against Gambit that he lost his speed, Deathbird notes that he is no longer the fighter he used to be etc. etc.

Drew: I haven't included Longshot for the same reason as I haven't included Sage and Mimic; too difficult to say what is their actual skill and what is powers (and in Longshot's case he rarely goes hand-to-hand, he usually uses throwing weapons.)

[Kaos]

dunno why people downplaying cyke, a guy that trains as much as he does should be a awesome HTH combatant

[The Lucky One]

He had one of his clones go to that Shao-Lin temple in his mini though. And the college classes on anatomy that he followed, card-throwing and all other skills, I think he may be up on this list, were he an X-Man.

True. We haven't seen him do any real fighting in recent years, but he's probably a LOT better than he was in the past.

Gambit would still have had to train with it once his powers manifested(and he has),whereas Longshot was simply created that way.

Which means it's not a power, it's just who he is.

*shrugs* Inevitably most people will go with Gambit because he's more popular. But something like this should be approached as objectively as possible, regardless of personal preference. As a character, I can't stand Cable; but he IS a good fighter, and thus should probably rank within, ah, probably the top ten or so. Likewise, I loved Cypher, but the fact is he was a pretty piss-poor fighter.

And objectively, Longshot would be pretty damn high on the list of the best fighting X-men. That's all I'm saying.

-D

[jarrod]

Peter is actually a good choice. I suspect his training is as a boxer rather than an Eastern-style martial artist, but I see no reason why boxing should get less respect than kung-fu or ninjutsu.
Actually in early Uncanny, Pitor was training using Judo. Him relying on his brute strength was actually seen as a problem by Scott iirc, so there was a concerted effort to train beyond that.


I know you like Sage, Jarrod, but I've got to disagree with you here. With their powers of photographic reflexes, Taskmaster may be a "7", and Sage may be a "6", but if their powers were neutralized, inhibited, or decimated, their brain and nervous system would not function the in same way. They could no more access their fighting skills than Xavier might access his telepathy or Havok his energy beams.

It's a funny concept, because for almost every other character, fighting ability is a learned skill, and has nothing to do with powers. There are a few powers, however, that involve accelerated skill acquisition, such as Tasky's and Sage's. My guess is that without their mutant energies "powering" their brain and nervous system, their "skills" would fade. Similarly, Cypher might lose all the languages he's acquired (if he were still alive, that is).
Yeah, I agree generally... again, with powers Sage could probably take on about anyone (of human strength/speed levels) hand-to-hand but remove that differentiating factor and you're not likely to see her stand up to Logan or Bishop in a fight. I just don't think she'd atrophy entirely without powers though, she'd likely retain some level of knowledge/ability and she's still rather fit... I bet she'd have a reasonable chance of beating Kitty for example (who doesn't seem all that disciplined these days admittedly). Like someone else mentioned, she'd probably come in at a high 4 on the ranking.


Which means it's not a power, it's just who he is.

*shrugs* Inevitably most people will go with Gambit because he's more popular. But something like this should be approached as objectively as possible, regardless of personal preference. As a character, I can't stand Cable; but he IS a good fighter, and thus should probably rank within, ah, probably the top ten or so. Likewise, I loved Cypher, but the fact is he was a pretty piss-poor fighter.

And objectively, Longshot would be pretty damn high on the list of the best fighting X-men. That's all I'm saying.

-D
I'd have to agree, Longshot should rank pretty high. People get too clouded in formal training (which 'shot's arguably lacking in) but reflexes, tactical intelligence, spatial awareness, physical fitness and some degree of natural ability play a large role too. Ororo and Dani are good examples of that I think, neither really had much formal training before coming to Xaiver's but both were pretty good natural fighters hand to hand none the less.


In the entire X-men Mythos, the best are
Well, if we start looking at the peripheral X-teams, we're going to have to start adding Domino, Shatterstar, Kylun, Cerise, Sabretooth, X-23 and probably a ton more.

[CE_Rap]

True. We haven't seen him do any real fighting in recent years, but he's probably a LOT better than he was in the past.



Which means it's not a power, it's just who he is.

*shrugs* Inevitably most people will go with Gambit because he's more popular. But something like this should be approached as objectively as possible, regardless of personal preference. As a character, I can't stand Cable; but he IS a good fighter, and thus should probably rank within, ah, probably the top ten or so. Likewise, I loved Cypher, but the fact is he was a pretty piss-poor fighter.

And objectively, Longshot would be pretty damn high on the list of the best fighting X-men. That's all I'm saying.

-D

My list was approached objectively. I do like Gambit a lot, but Rogue is one of my favorite X-females and i didn't even put her on the list. Canemacar's point is that Longshot never had to train. THat was also my point. You almost can't put him in a "depowered" situation because he isn't a mutant. He can't really "depower" that aspect. As powers go, he's got DAMN GOOD luck, so turn that off, he's still an egineered being, designed to move as nimbly as someone who trained all their life. He probably never trained a day in his life and is just as good as someone who trained ALL his life.

Nevertheless, i put him on the list because he was an X-Man. If he lost his luck, that's where i believe he'd fall. It's really not about popularity for me. Shoot, he's still top ten. But you stating that i'd have to bump Gambit down sounds more like dislike than a valid point, because Gambit also trained like a mother$#@er. He's superhuman with the powers, he's a gold medalist without.


dunno why people downplaying cyke, a guy that trains as much as he does should be a awesome HTH combatant

No downplay, no disrespect. He can do his thing, he can hold his own. But compared to a good deal of his teammates, he doesn't hold a candle to them, and that's a fact.

[rwsmith]

dunno why people downplaying cyke, a guy that trains as much as he does should be a awesome HTH combatant

He should be, but he's too much of a p*$$y.;)

[steve2275]

kurt before pete died was teaching pete acrobatics

[cable guy]

I'll give my list...

1. Wolverine
2. Cable
3. Psylocke
4. Bishop
5. Warpath
6. Cyclops
7. Shadowcat
8. Gambit
9. Longshot
10. Colossus