Mutants and Civil War [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

brundlefly

09-07-2006, 01:49 PM

Yeah, mutants have never really understood politics or the fact people rightfully fear people who can invade your mind or kill you by looking at you. They just assume everything is because people are prejudiced.

Well, I think they "understand politics" enough to know that prior attempts at mutant registration were just prejudice-driven election year stunts by politicians or military-driven attempts to round them up and utilize them as weapons and test subjects. Hence they would look at the SHRA in the same way.

scottv

09-07-2006, 01:54 PM

I want to see if the how CW X-Men mini is going to be self contained where as they really only deal with the other mutants of the 198 or if they are going to get one one side or the other and be in the big battles.

Loestal

09-07-2006, 01:57 PM

Sparda

09-07-2006, 02:16 PM

Emma explained that the X-men would register as long as the government leaves them alone and let them do thier own business of helping other mutants as I can recall.

Wait a minute even if your registered, the government will still make you work for them cause of your powers right? It's not to the individual's choice?

Beast

09-07-2006, 02:21 PM

Question though don't the x-men technically work for the government anyway?
I know during claremont's run, they had badges and everything so wouldn't that make them registered anyway? Seeign as they are government agents.:confused: :confused:
Storm was the one who was the liason to the U.N. for the XSE. With her departure, the group is shut down.

As for why the X-Men arn't being forced to register, it's because they're already retroactively registered due to O*N*E's presence on the mansion's grounds. Since the X-Men are claiming neutrality, the government doesn't want to push them to registering with the SHRA, because it could push them off the fence and into Captain America's Anti-SHRA camp. Which would be very bad for the Government.

TransformersFan

09-07-2006, 02:24 PM

technically must you work for the government if you register. Im mean, can you still live a normal life, woking IT for IBM, but not use your special ability to control sunspots?

o1pickleboy

09-08-2006, 01:30 AM

He's not the only one, there's Micromax and Sabra as well.

And no, there should be very few mutants who support the SHRA.

I agree that they should be very few mutants supporting SHRA, but there should be more than three. Namely the two I posted above are the only ones I think should be in favor of it.

If Bishop can see SHRA merrits, then I believe a few other would too.

Karthak

09-08-2006, 04:09 AM

Yeah, mutants have never really understood politics or the fact people rightfully fear people who can invade your mind or kill you by looking at you. They just assume everything is because people are prejudiced.
They are against registration because big messes tend to start with registration and end with concentration camps, and mutant registration would probably have led down that road. I know this for a fact, since I lost over a hundred jewish relatives during ww2.

Blackcat

09-08-2006, 04:50 AM

Emma explained that the X-men would register as long as the government leaves them alone and let them do thier own business of helping other mutants as I can recall.

Not really. The X-Men and the 198 are allready registered (see the 198 files of Valerie Cooper), so for the X-Men themselves there's nothing left fighting for. But the 198 are not allowed to leave Xaviers Institute, so that's what all the fuss is about.

ivesaidway2much

09-08-2006, 05:35 AM

The overwhelming majority of mutants in the U.S. are being forced to live in a concentration camp right now. I'm shocked even Bishop chose to be a Pro-reg.

bulbasteve

09-08-2006, 08:40 AM

Well, I think they "understand politics" enough to know that prior attempts at mutant registration were just prejudice-driven election year stunts by politicians or military-driven attempts to round them up and utilize them as weapons and test subjects. Hence they would look at the SHRA in the same way.

The mutant issue was never about prejudice, it was always about the balance of power. They had every right to fear and hate mutants, mutants aren't all warm and fuzzy you know. Hell imagine if you were a political leader in a world with a guy like Professor X, you would constantly be questioning if your decisions are your own or not.

They are against registration because big messes tend to start with registration and end with concentration camps, and mutant registration would probably have led down that road. I know this for a fact, since I lost over a hundred jewish relatives during ww2.

Equating the two has never worked in the MU. We had Magneto (who is supposed to be a Holocaust survivor himself) taking over New York City and sending people into incinerators. I find it amazing that people claim it will happen because of the government when it already happened in continuity with mutants against humans. Cause really, when you can't shoot lasers out of your eyes...humanity is the weaker group here, they are the victims, not mutants.

o1pickleboy

09-08-2006, 10:14 AM

bulbasteve

09-08-2006, 10:31 AM

Man you sould be on the purity website.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=122270

Oh man! Done and DONE!

It's way more fun to be against the heroes in those comics, people should try it more often. (except Nightcrawler he is "one of the good ones")

damn I'm getting in the spirit already!

brundlefly

09-08-2006, 10:37 AM

The mutant issue was never about prejudice, it was always about the balance of power. They had every right to fear and hate mutants, mutants aren't all warm and fuzzy you know. Hell imagine if you were a political leader in a world with a guy like Professor X, you would constantly be questioning if your decisions are your own or not.

Given that gods, heroes who had gotten their powers through accidents or special programs, etc. weren't being registered or targeted by the government programs, instead only mutants were, then yes, prejudice and political/military opportunism were the driving factors of the government's role in the "mutant issue." The government perpetuated the public's prejudice against mutants for both political gain (creating a domestic "enemy") and military (to utilize them in weapons programs or as test subjects). Plenty of non-mutants are telepaths like Xavier, too, but no one was trying to round them up.

Equating the two has never worked in the MU. We had Magneto (who is supposed to be a Holocaust survivor himself) taking over New York City and sending people into incinerators. I find it amazing that people claim it will happen because of the government when it already happened in continuity with mutants against humans. Cause really, when you can't shoot lasers out of your eyes...humanity is the weaker group here, they are the victims, not mutants.

Well, first of all that wasn't Magneto. And how many times have non-mutant threats (or villains that then reformed and been accepted, like Namor) laid waste to New York or other cities? Seriously, "normal humanity" in the Marvel Universe has been far more grievously wounded in the past by their own kind, non-mutant supervillains, or cosmic menaces/entities than from any organized attack by mutants. The hostility has generally been the other way around (humans attacking and trying to wipe out mutants) and usually unprovoked by those selfsame mutants. I don't see how MU humans who persecute mutants can credibly claim to be the 'victims' any more than real-world racists can.

Omega Alpha

09-08-2006, 10:50 AM

Given that gods, heroes who had gotten their powers through accidents or special programs, etc. weren't being registered or targeted by the government programs, instead only mutants were, then yes, prejudice and political/military opportunism were the driving factors of the government's role in the "mutant issue." The government perpetuated the public's prejudice against mutants for both political gain (creating a domestic "enemy") and military (to utilize them in weapons programs or as test subjects). Plenty of non-mutants are telepaths like Xavier, too, but no one was trying to round them up.

Well, first of all that wasn't Magneto. And how many times have non-mutant threats (or villains that then reformed and been accepted, like Namor) laid waste to New York or other cities? Seriously, "normal humanity" in the Marvel Universe has been far more grievously wounded in the past by their own kind, non-mutant supervillains, or cosmic menaces/entities than from any organized attack by mutants. The hostility has generally been the other way around (humans attacking and trying to wipe out mutants) and usually unprovoked by those selfsame mutants. I don't see how MU humans who persecute mutants can credibly claim to be the 'victims' any more than real-world racists can.

Perfect.

No one ever said "hey, let's register the muties, but also Thor, Cap. America and Iron Man" before. It was nothing but opportunistic crap from politicians.

And DoFP and similar timelines show that all meta-humans were killed by the Sentinels too, and the first to die were those registred or who were always in the spotlight, like the Avengers and FF, because the Sentinels knew where they were, of course. Not a very good background for the SHRA.

bulbasteve

09-08-2006, 11:29 AM

Oh man that mutant thread was the most fun time on the internet this side of porn.

Perfect.

No one ever said "hey, let's register the muties, but also Thor, Cap. America and Iron Man" before. It was nothing but opportunistic crap from politicians.

And DoFP and similar timelines show that all meta-humans were killed by the Sentinels too, and the first to die were those registred or who were always in the spotlight, like the Avengers and FF, because the Sentinels knew where they were, of course. Not a very good background for the SHRA.

Alternate Earths! And come on...something bad happening on 616? I'm sure there are happy registration fixed everything alternate earths too, but they are nice and people usually dont' run away from them. (and there technically has to be ones since most any big action makes an alternate history).

Given that gods, heroes who had gotten their powers through accidents or special programs, etc. weren't being registered or targeted by the government programs, instead only mutants were, then yes, prejudice and political/military opportunism were the driving factors of the government's role in the "mutant issue." The government perpetuated the public's prejudice against mutants for both political gain (creating a domestic "enemy") and military (to utilize them in weapons programs or as test subjects). Plenty of non-mutants are telepaths like Xavier, too, but no one was trying to round them up.

Well, first of all that wasn't Magneto. And how many times have non-mutant threats (or villains that then reformed and been accepted, like Namor) laid waste to New York or other cities? Seriously, "normal humanity" in the Marvel Universe has been far more grievously wounded in the past by their own kind, non-mutant supervillains, or cosmic menaces/entities than from any organized attack by mutants. The hostility has generally been the other way around (humans attacking and trying to wipe out mutants) and usually unprovoked by those selfsame mutants. I don't see how MU humans who persecute mutants can credibly claim to be the 'victims' any more than real-world racists can.

Hey I am as happy as anyone that the MU and X-men worlds are coming closer together. It never made much sense that Spidey was almost never seen as a mutant or anything.

But with how big the SHIELD psi-ops is (and the fact they could be making way more money as real psychics), I'm sure the psychics are being rounded up to some extent.

brundlefly

09-08-2006, 12:06 PM

Perfect.

No one ever said "hey, let's register the muties, but also Thor, Cap. America and Iron Man" before. It was nothing but opportunistic crap from politicians.

And DoFP and similar timelines show that all meta-humans were killed by the Sentinels too, and the first to die were those registred or who were always in the spotlight, like the Avengers and FF, because the Sentinels knew where they were, of course. Not a very good background for the SHRA.

Heh, good point on the DOFP and other alternate Earths. Hard to use those as evidence against the SHRA in front of Congress and the like, since they're "potential futures" and all. But in 616 continuity there have been anti-mutant programs like the Sentinels, Project Wideawake, Zero Tolerance, etc, that could be used as legit examples of flawed or corrupted government programs regarding regulation of those with superhuman abilities. I'm sure those arguments would just fall on deaf ears, though.

But with how big the SHIELD psi-ops is (and the fact they could be making way more money as real psychics), I'm sure the psychics are being rounded up to some extent.

Oh I'm sure they're being pursued now, since everyone is fair game in Civil War. I was referring to the fact that prior registration programs had only targeted mutants.

ImpossibleMarc

09-08-2006, 12:16 PM

Not really. The X-Men and the 198 are allready registered (see the 198 files of Valerie Cooper), so for the X-Men themselves there's nothing left fighting for. But the 198 are not allowed to leave Xaviers Institute, so that's what all the fuss is about.

Well they're registered, but not as Shield Agents or Enforcers for the SHRA, unless I read it wrong, I only skimmed through the Files of Valerie Cooper, but that's what I got out of it.

Jmacq1

09-08-2006, 12:28 PM

Well they're registered, but not as Shield Agents or Enforcers for the SHRA, unless I read it wrong, I only skimmed through the Files of Valerie Cooper, but that's what I got out of it.

That about sums it up. As one of the above posters noted, the government is leery about "pushing" the X-Men too hard right now, lest they and the rest of the "198" decide to join the Anti-Registration resistance en masse (which would be about the only thing that might equalize the power scales at this point).

Basically, by virtue of numbers, the X-Men get to be one of those entities the government is willing to "compromise" with. At least until the rest of the "supers" are in line and could be called upon to beat them up if they get out of line. -Then- (if the pro-reg side had a complete victory) I'm sure the government would start telling the X-Men to take marching orders from SHIELD like everyone else.

Ironic, really....

bulbasteve

09-08-2006, 12:41 PM

Heh, good point on the DOFP and other alternate Earths. Hard to use those as evidence against the SHRA in front of Congress and the like, since they're "potential futures" and all. But in 616 continuity there have been anti-mutant programs like the Sentinels, Project Wideawake, Zero Tolerance, etc, that could be used as legit examples of flawed or corrupted government programs regarding regulation of those with superhuman abilities. I'm sure those arguments would just fall on deaf ears, though.

Heh, well it Nicieza himself posting right on this board saying that Cable has been known to abuse his Days of Future Past history as a political scare tactic.

All very true about the 616 programs. Although I'm sure they can also argue their new Sentinel program with it's human pilots and mission to protect mutants. Although I gotta wonder if news of what House of M has came down to the government level yet, I haven't been keeping track. I mean they may do they think there is some living anti-mutant guy or mutant cure bombers or whatever reason they can think of for them needing the governments help? Of course even if they DO know I'm sure they can use the public not knowing to their advantange.

Oh I'm sure they're being pursued now, since everyone is fair game in Civil War. I was referring to the fact that prior registration programs had only targeted mutants.

Well to be fair weren't there like millions of mutants in the world? There are only so many nuclear accidents or cosmic rays to make normal people superheroes. They must of had enough recruits just in the mutant community (plus they could actually track them). Although I think that the unwritten rule of X-Men was always that unless they were the heroes or villains all other mutants are just guys with beaks or tentacles. Although that would be a badass army right there.

Alpow

09-08-2006, 12:57 PM

Ironic, really....

It's just standard procedure

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Although in this case it would be the Anti-Regs, then the Mutants, then Dr Strange, then Atlantis and then the Inhumans.

brundlefly

09-08-2006, 01:02 PM

Heh, well it Nicieza himself posting right on this board saying that Cable has been known to abuse his Days of Future Past history as a political scare tactic.

All very true about the 616 programs. Although I'm sure they can also argue their new Sentinel program with it's human pilots and mission to protect mutants. Although I gotta wonder if news of what House of M has came down to the government level yet, I haven't been keeping track. I mean they may do they think there is some living anti-mutant guy or mutant cure bombers or whatever reason they can think of for them needing the governments help? Of course even if they DO know I'm sure they can use the public not knowing to their advantange.

Well, even if the anti-registration side was able to introduce things like DOFP as evidence against registration, I think it wouldn't do any good now as things are too far gone and mainstream public opinion in the MU seems to be largely pro-registration due to the New Warriors/Stamford thing. They'd just be ignored or wouldn't get a hearing to present their argument.

Well to be fair weren't there like millions of mutants in the world? There are only so many nuclear accidents or cosmic rays to make normal people superheroes. They must of had enough recruits just in the mutant community (plus they could actually track them). Although I think that the unwritten rule of X-Men was always that unless they were the heroes or villains all other mutants are just guys with beaks or tentacles. Although that would be a badass army right there.

The mutant overnight population explosion was only during Morrison's run and then M-Day counteracted that back down to 198. Most of the superheroes and villains in the MU during the prior attempts at mutant registration were not mutants and had gotten their individual powers through other means (chemical, technological, cosmic, magical, "accidents", etc) and as a result were all exempt from the mutant registration acts, which was just hypocritical and racist since most of the mutants being forced to register had harmless powers like Doug Ramsey while the guys exempt were the likes of Goliath or the Absorbing Man.

Heh, an army of guys with beaks and tentacles. That would be a very visually intimidating, H.P. Lovecraft-themed army.

Jmacq1

09-08-2006, 01:23 PM

Just to clarify, the mutant population was dropped down to 198 -plus-:

Most of the X-Men and their affiliates (New X-Men/Academy X, etc...)
Most of the X-Men's villains
A few other characters that have yet to be introduced.

Or to put it more clearly "The 198" -only- refers to those mutants that are being held in the "concentration camp" on the Xavier Estate. The "real" total of mutants in the world is closer to 250 or 300 or so. At least that's my guesstimate based on the commentary Marvel was making at the time. They may even have tossed out numbers closer to 400 or 500 worldwide, as I recall (still pretty much a drop in the bucket compared to what was).

The Fury

09-08-2006, 01:24 PM

He's not the only one, there's Micromax and Sabra as well.

And no, there should be very few mutants who support the SHRA.
No, Micromax and Sabra are not signed up. they are representative from their governments (UK and Isreal in this case) to...well, I dunno, Sabra to see how successfull it would beto set up their own Registration...you know, with all the superheros Isreal has. (Of course this is asside the fact the X-men: Civl War book is not very connected to the Civil War plot anyway).

The problem is that there are very few mutant heroes outside of the X-men that are superheroes.

brundlefly

09-08-2006, 01:37 PM

Just to clarify, the mutant population was dropped down to 198 -plus-:

Most of the X-Men and their affiliates (New X-Men/Academy X, etc...)
Most of the X-Men's villains
A few other characters that have yet to be introduced.

Or to put it more clearly "The 198" -only- refers to those mutants that are being held in the "concentration camp" on the Xavier Estate. The "real" total of mutants in the world is closer to 250 or 300 or so. At least that's my guesstimate based on the commentary Marvel was making at the time.

Yeah, I should have been more specific regarding the current actual number of mutants, but I wasn't sure how many had already been "repowered" and other such exceptions. Your figures sound about right to me, as I doubt even Marvel knows the exact numbers with all the loopholes and reversals on who is and isn't a mutant after Decimation.

Beast

09-08-2006, 01:39 PM

No, Micromax and Sabra are not signed up. they are representative from their governments (UK and Isreal in this case) to...well, I dunno, Sabra to see how successfull it would beto set up their own Registration...you know, with all the superheros Isreal has. (Of course this is asside the fact the X-men: Civl War book is not very connected to the Civil War plot anyway).

The problem is that there are very few mutant heroes outside of the X-men that are superheroes.
Well, we saw Firestar's reaction. She said 'Screw This' and quit.

XPac

09-08-2006, 04:26 PM

Well, we saw Firestar's reaction. She said 'Screw This' and quit.

Course, odds are she'll still have to register. Jessica Jones had to and she quit the super hero biz years ago.

Unless she pulls a Thing and hops over to France or something, she can legally be back "in" if SHIELD for whatever reason wanted her to.

o1pickleboy

09-10-2006, 02:50 PM

Do any of you think that Forge and Sage would be pro like I do?

Alpow

09-10-2006, 07:02 PM

Sage seems to be enjoying what Britain has to offer (in the mutant spy love interest department) so I doubt she would be that happy at granting the government the ability to send her off to Idaho for the rest of her life.

Of course since she wasn't born in America she may not be a citizen in which case she just has to never practice super heroics inside the US again.

Wind-Breaker

09-10-2006, 07:55 PM

Do any of you think that Forge and Sage would be pro like I do?

Forge definately. He's practically the mutant version of Tony Stark.

But Sage would be neutral. Since she thinks like a computer, you'd figure she would come to same conclusion as scientific minds like Stark and Reed. But she grew up in Balkins, where they had they're own conflict between the government and rebels, and she did everything she could stay out of the fight. So the thought of a civil war, would definately not be appealing to Sage.

IamtheRock3

09-11-2006, 02:14 PM

Well mutant has been a predjudice thing even though I am not against reging totaly

I mean I can understand want to stop magneto. But they chasing Jimmy the Crab hand boy down with pitchforks

And really who the heck use PITCHFORKS in this day and Age

And really The POSSIBLE future...only possible future because someone went back in time and stop them

And pretty sure you can find goverments treating mutants poorly, When Guys like REED Richard, Thing, Dr Strange, getting a free ride

But yea can undestand Why goverment would want to keep and eye on Prof X and crew though (Not doing thier Job if they didnt in my opinion). Just quit acting crazy about it is all

But then again doesnt help that it seem like Half the Xmen are X supervillan with high bodycounts on them, and Prof X tededy to be a JERK

Cardiac

09-13-2006, 10:10 AM

Personally, I think there are two ways for mutants to look at Civil War.
1. I could see why mutants would be pro-reg. Alot of them would probably be able to find protection with the government by registering. Since mutants are disliked as it is, many might see this as an opportunity to get the public's respect and improve the image of mutants.
2. I could see why mutants would be anti-reg. A good deal of mutants could see this as just another mutant registration scheme by the govt. to persecute them. If they sign with the government, it is very likely that the government would try to cure them, experiment on them or even just kill them. The government has always worked against them before and this is no exception.

sherlockbones

09-13-2006, 12:59 PM

Well, we saw Firestar's reaction. She said 'Screw This' and quit.

you won´t be walking away with the hounds on your trail. it is register or 42 (for now).

personally i do think this leads into DoFP or a spiced up version of it

Jmacq1

09-13-2006, 01:22 PM

you won´t be walking away with the hounds on your trail. it is register or 42 (for now).

personally i do think this leads into DoFP or a spiced up version of it

Ehn, of course it'll never go that far. It might get to the -verge- of something like that, but the heroes will manage to overcome it at the last moment. And I hope and pray beyond all hope that it will -FINALLY- lay the "Days of Future Past" future to rest. It's been beaten to death. Find a new plot device/sword of Damocles.

Because y'know...it'd be hard to keep publishing most of their titles if the Sentinels killed all the heroes. ;)

sherlockbones

09-13-2006, 04:02 PM

Ehn, of course it'll never go that far. It might get to the -verge- of something like that, but the heroes will manage to overcome it at the last moment. And I hope and pray beyond all hope that it will -FINALLY- lay the "Days of Future Past" future to rest. It's been beaten to death. Find a new plot device/sword of Damocles.

Because y'know...it'd be hard to keep publishing most of their titles if the Sentinels killed all the heroes. ;)

heros reborn? ;)
most concept have been done but had various impact on the ongoing titels. it is really hard to come up with convincing stories. what if, ultimates, 1602, the end, crisis...maybe in a couple of years they will kill 616 entirely and just work with isolated arcs.
the nerds (us) know the characters backgrounds anyway.

Jmacq1

09-13-2006, 07:26 PM

heros reborn? ;)
most concept have been done but had various impact on the ongoing titels. it is really hard to come up with convincing stories. what if, ultimates, 1602, the end, crisis...maybe in a couple of years they will kill 616 entirely and just work with isolated arcs.
the nerds (us) know the characters backgrounds anyway.

Yeah, I also doubt Marvel's going to kill their entire history, either. Nor commit the same story device that they ridicule their "Distinguished Competition" for doing (IE completely rebooting their universe every 10 years or so). Marvel's strength is that it doesn't -need- to do that.

o1pickleboy

09-15-2006, 01:31 AM

Yeah, I also doubt Marvel's going to kill their entire history, either. Nor commit the same story device that they ridicule their "Distinguished Competition" for doing (IE completely rebooting their universe every 10 years or so). Marvel's strength is that it doesn't -need- to do that.

I agree that is one of there strong suits. Holding on to their history has inriched and added value to their stories.

Of course I am not knocking in any way stories not in 616. I loved what if, squadron supreme, and many other alternate tales. I even support mainstream books that want to tell a non canon story. I just would like them to inform the reader and not to claim that it is canon.