Writers should be good - or at least working

[ChadtheH]

I've decided that the big comic companies have relationships with writers the way single women (stereotypical ones, anyway) carry on relationships with men. They ignore the ones who want to be there for them and insist on chasing down the guys who will sleight them and treat them like crap.

I can remember more than one convention appearance with editors from DC, Dark Horse, Marvel or whoever telling a crowd of fanboys that no, they are not looking for writers, all writer slots are full, even if you have professional writing experience don't bother us, etc. Understandable, maybe, in an Internet age where every hack fanfic'er thinks he's brilliant and it's a crime he doesn't have a job.

BUT, the same companies frequently have to announce delays on shipping their books because the writers they DO hire don't have time to write for them. One is in the middle of putting out the new season of Grey's Anatomy right now, one I believe is about to release another science fiction novel through Del Rey Books, another has Smallville to work on, another just had to make us wait three years to a finish a limited series so that first he could make "Jersey Girl," and star on "Joey." Kind of undercuts their whole "we only hire deserving professionals" mantra, if their talents are breaking agreements or flaking out on them.

I'm not trying to pick on individual writers, because I really don't know the facts of each case. But as a general rule, it seems to me if the companies didn't insist on chasing down only the writers they get star-struck about, and instead tried out some hard-working unknowns, they could actually start meeting deadlines.

Discuss…

[hmnut73]

I agree with every thing said. But I would not limit the complaint to writers. Everything in the above can be said about artist too.

Big names sell books, it becomes that simple. They are something like rock stars, they swoop in, trash the hotel room, sleep with your sister and then are off to their "real" gig. Never once looking back at the mess they made.

Not enough credit is given to people who really "work" as comic book writers and artist. These are the guys and gals who actually start a story arc and (gasp:eek: ) finish it before moving on to something better. Maybe even get a few stories under their belt and add to the book over time, rather than try to "shake everything up" within the first 6 panels of their first book.

[Bright-Raven]

Actually, those "big names" DON'T sell books - at least not to anyone with brains and the werewithal to use them.

If anything, the "Names" are an automatic red flag as a good reason NOT to buy the product. If you know the jerkhole creator has issues meeting their obligations, then it doesn't matter how "good" the product is, you just pass on it entirely because there is ALWAYS something just as good that someone else put out there for you to find.

If retailers and fans took that attitude and stopped supporting these idiots, then the publishers would have no choice but to hire competent talents who know what the meaning of the term "deadline" is. You'd probably get better overall stories, too.

[ChadtheH]

Actually, those "big names" DON'T sell books - at least not to anyone with brains and the werewithal to use them.

If anything, the "Names" are an automatic red flag as a good reason NOT to buy the product.

Well, it seems like readers DO run to big names at least until something goes screwed. Maybe a fool-me-once-shame-on-you thing.

As an example (though I'm reluctant to single anybody out) the first three issues of Kevin Smith's "Spider-Man / Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do" each sold 100,000 copies or more in summer 2002. Then Smith had other things to do before finishing issues 4-6 in late 2005, three years later, and each of those sold about 52,000 copies. I'm not sure if that's readers having short attention spans or readers getting so pissed they refused to buy the final three books on principle; but needless to say a lot of money was lost.

Same is true for the diva "rock star" artists, I suppose. BUT, the publishers are at least willing to look at unknown artists at conventions and give them a shot as well. Unknown writers can go climb a tree.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Actually, those "big names" DON'T sell books - at least not to anyone with brains and the werewithal to use them.


Sales figures show they tend to do alright.

[stealthwise]

Wait, wait, speaking of "red flags," who's writing for both comics and Grey's Anatomy? I hate that frigging show.

[ChadtheH]

Ah. That would be Allan Heinberg, who is in the middle of the current Wonder Woman story arc with Terry and Rachel Dodson. But writers straddling the fence of comic and TV/film writing is not uncommon -- Joss Whedon got X-Men after Buffy went off the air, Geoff Johns was once an assistant to Richard Donner, and J. Michael Straczynski hardly needs me to print his resume here.

I suspect that kind of thinking in comics s a Jeanette Kahn legacy -- writers aren't good writers unless they've already been published or had commercial success somewhere else. And if they have, of course, they don't have much time left over for comics.

[stealthwise]

Heinberg eh? Good, gives me another reason to NEVER read him again. I could overlook his work on the extremely shitty "Sex in the City" when checking out Young Avengers, but "Grey's Anatomy" was an unforgivable sin in my mind. I loathe that show with a thousand fiery passions.

As for the overarching topic, I feel that too few writers are taking care of too many different projects. Bendis and Johns oversee all at their respective companies, except when they're too busy and guys like Millar and Rucka, etc, step in. The talented guys, like BKV, are smart enough to stay mostly on the fringe titles and ply their talents in that way. It's when you start taking over all of an entire shared universe that problems arise.

Example: If Dan Slott, or, say, Robert Kirkman were to write the big titles for either company, people would start complaining immediately, and rightfully so. There shouldn't be a "company line" that basically streamlines almost every title.

[desertfairy]

Companies like Marvel and DC will continue to chase prima donna writers and artists because they're in the entertainment business, and in that business, going with an unknown is risky. But, I am in agreement with you on meeting deadlines. There are few comics I've stopped buying because I'm so annoyed with the release schedule: Justice, All Star Batman, All Star Superman and Astonishing X-Men.

The thing is, with Marvel, DC and whatever other factory we're talking abou, even if the prima donnas don't meet deadlines and readership goes down on individual issues on some titles, they'll still recoup their investment in trades. I won't buy the comics I listed, but I'll buy the trades, because they're good stories overall. The release schedule just makes it impossible to follow.

So really, why should Marvel and DC court new writers anyway? They're going to profit no matter what.

[hmnut73]

So really, why should Marvel and DC court new writers anyway? They're going to profit no matter what.

That is the bottem line really.

On some very rare days, comic books are an art form, but on most days they are a business like any other and the bottem line is profit.

[ChadtheH]

Companies like Marvel and DC will continue to chase prima donna writers and artists because they're in the entertainment business, and in that business, going with an unknown is risky.

I don't exactly agree. See, I'm thinking if I'm an editor at DC or Marvel, real hot artists might be rare but I've got writers coming out of my ears. Almost EVERYONE in comics dreams of writing Batman or Spider-Man someday. So why would I spend month after month trying to get a Joss Whedon or Allan Heinberg to return my phone calls because my writer is busy in Hollywood and turns in every script weeks or months late? Couldn't I get a writer who's 90 percent as good and keeps bugging me for his big chance to be my total lapdog?

Going back to Spider-Man/Black Cat again, let's pretend Marvel had dumped Smith after #3 and brought in a Brian Bendis or a Gail Simone to finish out his story. Would it be the same? Maybe, who knows? But you'd make more money (in fall 2002 Diamond comic distributors received over 200,000 advance retail orders for Spider/Cat #4 and #5 – money which I assume was refunded at some point since the book didn't come out for 3 more years). Even if readers decided two issues down the road that it lost something in the change, at least they got the book when they wanted it and by then you've cashed in. Deadlines really do matter. Missing them means lost sales.


Oh, and about the stealthwise comment...I didn't really know Heinberg's work before WW, and I've only watched Grey's once (and was unimpressed). He seems hard-working and palatable, but I get the sense he's never set foot in a red state in his life (except on a layover, flying between the coasts).

[Dan Apodaca]

Actually, those "big names" DON'T sell books - at least not to anyone with brains and the werewithal to use them.

Actually, they DO sell books. To all sorts of people. Your opinion and personal choices do not reflect reality.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

He seems hard-working and palatable, but I get the sense he's never set foot in a red state in his life (except on a layover, flying between the coasts).

So he spends all his time in the states where it was 51% Blue, 48% Red, as opposed to the one's that were 48% Blue, 51% Red?

[Bright-Raven]

Dan:

Actually, they DO sell books. To all sorts of people. Your opinion and personal choices do not reflect reality.

Actually, my opinion is very much backed up by the factual data:

BUFFY and ANGEL each reached between three and five million viewers per episode. FIREFLY, about 1.7 to 2.2 million per episode.

SERENITY pulled down $10 million in box office it's opening weekend. Figuring a ticket at $7 a head, that's 142,857 people who went to see it during it's opening weekend. Granted, we know that there were thousands of Browncoats who probably went to see it more than once, but let's just say for sake of argument that this number reflects single individuals.

Now, anything X-MEN should garner at least say 50,000 units in sales regardless of the creative team - is that too excessive an estimate? Or is it not enough? Whatever, it's a nice round figure, so let's run with it, okay, Danny Boy?

So if Joss' 142,857 people who saw SERENITY all bought ASTONISHING (because as we all know Joss is a writing GOD and we all must buy anything with his name attached to it), that would mean his sales would be 192,857 at least. Then there's the fanboys who buy the book because of the art, and that's gotta be at least what - 25,000 units? So we're roughly at 218,000 units sold per month on average for ASTONISHING. And we haven't even tallied in the BUFFY and ANGEL fans who didn't read comics until Joss came to town, right? Didn't those shows garner between 3 and 5 million households a week in the Nielsen ratings, supposedly? Why, I do believe that was the case.

My gods! ASTONISHING X-MEN must be selling at least two or three million units a month, if having the elite Joss Whedon and his fanbase is any indication!

So let's take a look at how well ASTONISHING X-MEN's sales actually are:

ASTONISHING X-MEN
Jun 04 Astonishing X-Men #2 - 133,784
======
Jul 05 Astonishing X-Men #11 - 127,768 (-18.3%)
Aug 05 Astonishing X-Men #12 - 134,693 ( +5.4%)
Feb 06 Astonishing X-Men #13 - 148,244 (+10.1%)
Apr 06 Astonishing X-Men #14 - 124,129 (-16.3%)
Jun 06 Astonishing X-Men #15 - 119,991 ( -3.3%)

SOURCES: ICv2 and PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY (http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/07/20/marvel-month-to-month-sales-june-%E2%80%9906-by-paul-o%E2%80%99brien/ )

Damn. The book's monthly sales apparently don't even amount to the same number of sales as the opening box office for SERENITY save for one month's, #13. (To be fair, since a lot of monthly numbers weren't available in the article, maybe one or two more months MIGHT have surpassed the 142,857 mark of SERENITY. But I would like to see the actual figures as evidence.)

So how, pray tell, does bringing in a world famous celebrity writer with millions (AND MILLIONS!) of fans the world over guarantee all these supposedly great sales?

Answer: It doesn't, if the sales figures provided are correct.

There's REALITY for ya, Dan. Oh, I know, I know - "You can't compare TV and Film sales to comics sales, because comics has no marketing like the other media!" Sorry, but if the publisher is banking on that media connection - which is EXACTLY what they are doing - then that is EXACTLY what you have to expect. The writer must be so damned great that they're pulling in all their fanboys and fangirls from other media to that comic. Even giving consideration to the ratio of TV/ Film to comics, surely the genius of Whedon would be able to bring even say, oh, five percent of his non-comics fanbase into comics just to read his stuff?

What's 5% of three million viewers, Dan? Do you know? Let me enlighten your feeble mind - 150,000.

ASTONISHING's not quite there, now is it?

So Joss Whedon isn't even bringing in 5% of his fanbase? And this is a sales success HOW?! How small of a percentage is he actually bringing into comics? Probably about .001% in all reality. About 3,000 readers is all.

Is he really worth that? Is ANY writer worth that?

I'm sure that ANY book can pick up at LEAST 3,000 in additional sales if the publisher actually markets the book worth a damn and the retailers actually support the book.

And given the numerous times i recent year that fans have rallied behind books that were about to get cancelled due to low sales and brought the sales up, I think there's more than enough evidence to prove that it's not mere name recognition that brings in sales- it's marketing, in store promotion and grass roots movement that makes the sales.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

And given the numerous times i recent year that fans have rallied behind books that were about to get cancelled due to low sales and brought the sales up, I think there's more than enough evidence to prove that it's not mere name recognition that brings in sales- it's marketing, in store promotion and grass roots movement that makes the sales.

Dude, that post was a load of horse shit.

The numbers don't translate at all.
Fans of Madonna's music don't all rush out to see a film with her - though some do.
Not every fan of Coen Brothers film rushed out to buy Ethan Coens book.
When it comes to crossing mediums, there's no garuntee of how many will make the jump.

Not many Buffy fans did to X-men, but who was expecting them too?
It's a different concept/style, pamphlet sized issues, and it shipped direct market only - with no outside publicity.
Oh, and TV is free - comics are expensive.

So counting his fans from other projects crossing over doesn't prove much.

However, you can't deny that sales jumped up when he came on, and were above all other comics that month, by a rather large margin.
His name sold the book to a lot of people - maybe they were 'only' pre-exisiting fans, but they all brought the book - so from that point of view it worked.

And then there's the collected editions book sales.
I bet Whedon fans are more likely to make the crossover there - what are those numbers like?



Now I'm not saying he's good on the book - it's quite rubbish actually - I thought it was god-awful.
But to claim that he's name didn't boost sales, just because you've got some bizarre hatred for writers who had a job writing in a different medium first, is just silly.

[pennywisdom]

Actually, they DO sell books. To all sorts of people. Your opinion and personal choices do not reflect reality.
Dude, that post was a load of horse shit.
Let B-R help you discover the magic of the "Ignore" button.

[stealthwise]

I wonder how much of Astonishing's success comes from Cassaday's pencils as well though? And since it's a new title (albeit with well-established, already-existing characters) there's no way to track the actual impact of bringing Whedon aboard.

[dancj]

Of course big names increase sales. There's no other reason to account for the sales of books like Hush.

There's nothing wrong with that either. In my experience I enjoy the work of Alan Moore, Mark Millar, Grant Morrison, JMS, BKV etc, and so do a lot of other people. This is what makes them big names. If their work gradually decreases in quality then their names won't be as big as they once were.

Dan

[ChadtheH]

So he spends all his time in the states where it was 51% Blue, 48% Red, as opposed to the one's that were 48% Blue, 51% Red?

Hmm...point. After all, the majority of the so called "red states" are 52-48 one way instead of 52-48 the other way, like the majority of the "blue states." Though a couple tend more toward the extreme.

No, my blue state comment was more of a cultural one -- Heinberg is a graduate of Yale University as well as Jewish, gay, and a veteran of Sex and the City and The O.C. (two shows that typically play better on the coasts). He's a capable writer, but put all those other things together and he's also a walking blue state with hair gel.

You don't, by comparison, see comic companies falling over themselves to land writers like John Masius or Oson Scott Card. Just as examples -- they may have no interest, for all I know.

[geordiesteve]

Hmm...point. After all, the majority of the so called "red states" are 52-48 one way instead of 52-48 the other way, like the majority of the "blue states." Though a couple tend more toward the extreme.

No, my blue state comment was more of a cultural one -- Heinberg is a graduate of Yale University as well as Jewish, gay, and a veteran of Sex and the City and The O.C. (two shows that typically play better on the coasts). He's a capable writer, but put all those other things together and he's also a walking blue state with hair gel.

You don't, by comparison, see comic companies falling over themselves to land writers like John Masius or Oson Scott Card. Just as examples -- they may have no interest, for all I know.

Dont fully get all the red and blue state stuff, but I've got an idea, but for the record Orson Scott Card just did Ultimate Iron Man. As an established science fiction and technology author, Marvel approached him and there again his name brought in people, as well as those wanting to see Ultimate Iron Man.

Oh, and Kevin Smith, I like the guy, enjoy his movies, but 2 year wait or whatever it was for Spiderman/Black Cat was just a disgrace. He should never have started it if he was just gonna piss off to make movies and do it, "when we had the time."

[Dan Apodaca]

Danny Boy?

What's 5% of three million viewers, Dan? Do you know? Let me enlighten your feeble mind - 150,000.

Louis, you're being a real shithead right now. I've met you in person and I know for a fact that you wouldn't have the guts to talk to me like this in person, so don't be a prick online.

[brundlefly]

Ah. That would be Allan Heinberg, who is in the middle of the current Wonder Woman story arc with Terry and Rachel Dodson. But writers straddling the fence of comic and TV/film writing is not uncommon -- Joss Whedon got X-Men after Buffy went off the air, Geoff Johns was once an assistant to Richard Donner, and J. Michael Straczynski hardly needs me to print his resume here.

I suspect that kind of thinking in comics s a Jeanette Kahn legacy -- writers aren't good writers unless they've already been published or had commercial success somewhere else. And if they have, of course, they don't have much time left over for comics.

That got me thinking. Although this might not be the right thread for this particular question, how exactly did Reggie Hudlin end up getting plum assignments and treatment at Marvel? With the ones you mentioned (Whedon, Johns, Straczynski) and some others mentioned in the thread (Smith, Heinberg), they had shown the ability to write similar material/genres to what they're doing now or shown an affinity for comics (The OC, from what I hear, had a lot of comics content, but I wouldn't know). In contrast, Hudlin just wrote some House Party movies and works for BET. Does he know somebody or have a relative who works at Marvel or something like that? I don't see what he has to offer that Marvel would have aggressively courted him to come write for them.

[Ryan Day]

The test case for "what is Joss Whedon's name worth?" has just arrived. In taking over Runaways, he'll be writing a book that's not a major franchise and doesn't have a star artist attached. It's been hovering around 25,000 for most of its existence; will it stay there, or will we see it in the top ten? Breaking 100,000? Distinctly possible, I think.

[Dan Apodaca]

Hudlin just wrote some House Party movies and works for BET. Does he know somebody or have a relative who works at Marvel or something like that? I don't see what he has to offer that Marvel would have aggressively courted him to come write for them.

I see it as that kind of racism where they want to show they're not racist by hiring someone just because he's black. Where to find black people? Why, BET, of course! This all reveals them to be, in fact, quite racist.

[spaz]

For some reason I just can't stand a lot of the writers from the 80s up to the mid 90s. Don't like to mention names but when I see certain writers I will avoid buying that comic book, even if I like the character. Even those these guys have been loyal and always there, I cannot stand their writing style. For instance i hated to see a writer from the 70s taking over for Geoff Johns for the last few issues of JSA. I got a queasy feeling seeing who wrote the issue.

I really enjoy a lot of these hot writers, although they do have to get their act together and get their books out on time. They take on too many projects and overextend themselves. But most of the time I find the books above average.

One writer I no longer enjoy is Frank Miller. Whenever I think of him I just think a guy stuck in the 80s, even though I know he still has a loyal fan base. The only reason I would ever buy a book from him is if there's a good artist working with him like Jim Lee, otherwise I find him to be an old warhorse who hasn't moved with the times.

[Reptisaurus!]

I liked the first Black Panther trade.

Most of the stuff by "outside media" writers that I've read has been fair t'middling. There's no Alan Moores or Grant Morisonses or Dan Clowses in 'em, but most of the product they produce is fair t'middlin'. And they DO seem to increase sales, at least in terms of initial Pop. See: The first issue of Rising Stars, which sold huge, Huge, HUGE despite having un-established characters and a "celebrity writer" I'd never heard of at the time.

So stick yer deadline challenged writers on mini-series and say "It comes out when it comes out. Like books or movies or albums."

[Bright-Raven]

Funky:

Let's get something clear here - I don't "hate" Joss Whedon, or Joe Stracynski, or Greg Rucka or Brad Metzler or Orson Scott Card or whomever just because of their successes. I do loathe Kevin Smith, but that's because he's unprofessional and can't meet his contractual obligations. I have the same loathing for several artists and writers that are "comics-centric" if you will who exhibit the same problems, and I have been just as outspoken about them in the past. Does Smith write good stories? I don't think so, but even if I thought he did, his lack of ability handling his business would defeat any level of quality his work might have possessed.

Not many Buffy fans did go to X-men, but who was expecting them too?

Obviously Marvel was, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered hiring Whedon in the first place.

It's a different concept/style, pamphlet sized issues, and it's shipped direct market only - with no outside publicity.

Wrong. The books are also shipped via various newsstand companies, most notably Ingram Periodicals.

This is how the chain bookstores and drugstores get the comics they do carry - they do not order direct from Diamond, and don't let anyone bullshit you otherwise. They order through Ingram Periodicals and other newsstand sources, who may in turn be ordering direct through Diamond as secondary outsource distributors. But those specific retail outlets are still ordering the pamphlets direct from the newsstand, nonetheless. Most of them are also ordering their Graphic Novels through secondary distributors who may or may not order their stock from Diamond.

The whole notion of the Diamond "exclusivity" is a big fat lie perpetuated by those who want to keep the status quo. Any publisher can go outside the Diamond regime and distribute their product any damned way they want to. If you want to believe the b.s. they feed you, be my guest, Mushroom Lad.

Oh, and TV is free - comics are expensive.

Gee, most people pay for their television services (cable, satellite) unless they live in major cities where they can get some level of service via open air transmission. So sorry, it's not "free". Cheaper than comics, yes, but not free. Just thought I'd point that FACT out to you.

However, you can't deny that sales jumped up when he came on, and were above all other comics that month, by a rather large margin.

Sales didn't "jump up" on ASTONISHING X-MEN when Joss "came on", seeing as he's the writer who started on the book. Were the sales high? Apparently so for #1 at something around 210,000 units. (Source:
ICv2 May 2004 Diamond Top 300 sales chart)

Now, are you claiming the other X-Titles jumped overall in sales because Joss did ASTONISHING? Looking at the sales levels to check this...

The month that ASTONISHING #1 came out (May 2004), UNCANNY had roughly 113,000, and X-MEN had roughly 108,000. No significant increase in overall X-Book sales that month. (Source:
ICv2 May 2004 sales chart)

So, is it true that ASTONISHING did gangbusters? Yes. Because MARVEL MARKETED IT THAT WAY. Did it increase the sales for other X-Titles? Hell no.

But let's see how the line fared once the series wasn't being crammed into every orifice of every comics retailer by Marvel - er, I mean marketed. Sources for all of these numbers are ICv2 charts for their respective months:

JUNE 2004 sales:

ASTONISHING X-MEN #2 = 133,714 - a massive 37% drop in sales IN ONE MONTH.

UNCANNY #445 - 98,660. 13% drop in sales.

X-MEN #158 - 96,759. 11% drop in sales.

Let's run a 6 issue study:

JULY 2004:

ASTONISHING #3 - 129,362 - another 4% drop in sales.

UNCANNY #446 - 96,961 - a 2% drop in sales.

X-MEN #159 - 93,164 - a 4% drop in sales.

Let's try AUGUST 2004:

ASTONISHING #4 - 145,543. Ah, the usual increase after the retailer realizes the book might sell and orders moderate increases from their lower orders on #s 2 and 3. Fair enough. A 13% increase in sales. Cool.

UNCANNY #447 - 95,838 - nope, still dropping in sales here technically, but roughly about the same sales, as it's like a 1% drop.

X-MEN #160 - 91,790 - still dropping here, also at 1-2% drop in sales.

SEPTEMBER 2004:

ASTONISHING #5 131,552 - oops, another downturn, this time a 10% drop in sales.

UNCANNY #448 - 94,708 - 1% loss in sales.

UNCANNY #449 - 93,839 - yet another loss in sales, though this is typical. Whenever retailers have to order two issues of a given title in the same month, the second issue always seems to get marginally lower numbers, as I guess some retailers are too dumb to realize there's two new issues to be ordered that month or they figure people can't afford two issues so they order fewer copies of the second issue.

X-MEN #161 - 90,561 - wow, another sales loss of 1.4%

X-MEN #162 - 89,878. Again sales drop because of double issues in a month, so we can be gentle, I guess.


OCTOBER 2004:

No ASTONISHING this month.

The sales for UNCANNY and X-MEN and NEW X-MEN all drop another 1-2%.

Oh, by the by, ICv2 ran two or three articles about how the "top comics sales are still sliding" during this period, noting that dollar revenue would have been down, but the cover prices on many books went up to make up for the loss in sales revenue.

NOVEMBER 2004:

ASTONISHING #6 - 134,840 - an increase of 2%.

UNCANNY #452 - 92,501 - slight loss, but under 1%.

X-MEN #164 - 88,620 - slight loss, less than 1%.

Six months in, and no sign of Joss' genius heralding any increases on the other X-Titles whatsoever, and frankly the sales on his own book dropped some 50,000-70,000 from when he started.

Again, this is being successful HOW, exactly? This is bringing in new readers from outside comics fandom from WHERE?!

And if you really want me to show you how little Joss Whedon's name means - let's go to the sales on FRAY, the original 8 issue Future Slayer mini series he did at Dark Horse.

No X-Men. No direct BUFFY link to draw in the fans who buy anything immediate recognizable to the TV show.


How DID he fare there?

Well, Dark Horse bragged that the entire miniseries went into second and even third printings, for a whopping combined total sales of over 200,000 copies! (see http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/profile.php?sku=11-750 for the blurb on the FRAY trade paperback)

Wow. Over 200,000 copies for eight issues? And you had to go back to print? That averages out to 25,000 copies per issue, and we know the later issues had lower sales, because they already told you FRAY #1 had three printings!

And yet ASTONISHING #1 sold more than the entire series all by it's lonesome self.

So you see, Funky, the Whedon name doesn't mean instant sales.

*****

So...

I'm still waiting to see this huge influx of readers Joss has brought in, people. The fact is, Joss got huge sales on his #1 issue, and that's all. He didn't create an influx of readers to buy all the X-Books just because he's writing one of them, and while his book's sales are 30% higher than the other X-Titles, that can be contributed to the following facts:

1) ASTONISHING has a separate continuity to the rest of the X-Books so that (presumably) you can read it separate without having to follow the other titles (a big plus in many buyers' minds).

2) It was a new series set up. YOUNG AVENGERS and NEW AVENGERS received similar increases in sales over the previous Avengers books due to similar business strategem, and they didn't have any creator with outside fanbase to draw readers in, now did they? No, they did not.

******

Now, Funky, you asked about trade sales. That's a very difficult thing to track, because nobody gives the full information, just the orders from the Direct Market. The ASTONISHING X-MEN have averaged between 10,000-15,000 for trades (with multiple printings)and FRAY had not quite 4,200 copies ordered when it originally came out in late 2003. But again that's to the Direct Market. What overall sales were / are I cannot say, because I have no access to all the required data.

[howyadoin]

So stick yer deadline challenged writers on mini-series and say "It comes out when it comes out. Like books or movies or albums."Bingo. And wait till the damn thing's completely written before you even solicit it.

[ChadtheH]

for the record Orson Scott Card just did Ultimate Iron Man. As an established science fiction and technology author, Marvel approached him and there again his name brought in people, as well as those wanting to see Ultimate Iron Man.


Get out of town. I'm a fan of the Ender books, and I'm so gonna buy Ultimate Iron Man now that I know! I missed this probably because I avoid all Ultimate titles, even the ones drawn by Greg Land who is one of my favorite artists. All those titles seem to suffer from the same malady – a severe allergy to words. I have yet to pick up an Ultimate that I couldn't completely finish reading before it was my turn in line at the cash register. Hopefully Card didn't make that same mistake, but even if he did I'll give it a try once.

As for the Whedon on X-Men thread going through here, I agree it's hard to tell how much of those sales are based on his name versus the awesome Cassaday art, or the fact it's a fairly new series, or that X-Men has been golden for the last decade or so. I understand his "Fray" series (which I didn't read) did awful. If it's true he's trying his hand on this less-known Runaways project, it will indeed be the true measure of his star power.

[brundlefly]

I see it as that kind of racism where they want to show they're not racist by hiring someone just because he's black. Where to find black people? Why, BET, of course! This all reveals them to be, in fact, quite racist.

And then have him write their only black character solo series to boot. I still don't see their logic in seeking this particular guy out (he has no qualifications for this role and seems pretty lacking in the skills department as well), but I agree with your theory as to why he's probably at Marvel in the first place. Sad.

[Pól Rua]

I do loathe Kevin Smith, but that's because he's unprofessional and can't meet his contractual obligations.

Of course, the thing with Smith inasfar as 'The Evil That Men Do' was that he submitted the story for approval and got it, and THEN, someone at Marvel got cold feet about the whole 'Black Cat gets raped' thing and demanded a rewrite.
The time to demand a rewrite was during the approval process, not months after the script was approved.
Frankly, I think Smith's behaviour here is perfectly professional. He followed the approval process laid out by Marvel editorial and got throw out when Marvel decided to move the goalposts on him, and when they did, he said, "Well, you knew going into this that I had a window. I can't blow off my other obligations for this so yeah, you get it when you get it."
I don't see the problem.

[Bright-Raven]

Just saying here that Dan and I have taken the underlying issues for things that were said here to private channels. My comments were out of context to the thread, and apologies to all in that regard.

[DubipR]

Here's my 2 cents about hiring name people from outside the market. You can take it anyway you want, I don't care.

I think if a company is going to hire someone, say Marvel hire the gentlemen from Lost, I think when the papers are about to be done, somewhere in that agreement there should be in there somewhere that the project should be completed before any form of solicitation should be mentioned. Damon Lindenlof should've had all 4 issues done in the hopper before a mention of it at convention or in a magazine. Its good planning I think. We all know he's busy as fuck working on Lost and other television projects, so why don't the powers that be get the completed assignment before anything else happens?

I work in the retail business. I can't tell my customers that I have 100 cases of Vitamin Water and then they come in and don't see any and I tell them its not coming in 6 to 8 months later. Its bad business and I'd be terminated. It should apply to the writers these companies contracted a job to do. If the Big 2 had any business sense and decorum, the rules of the real business world would apply here. Its a contract plain and simple. No final project, no payoff.

[howyadoin]

If the Big 2 had any business sense and decorum, the rules of the real business world would apply here. Its a contract plain and simple. No final project, no payoff.Well, how does that apply to somebody who works in movies? I'm guessing the cash they get from Marvel for a 3-issue mini pales in comparison to a writer/director's salary, for example.

Or to put it another way, Kevin Smith, for example, is probably not gonna cry over fifty grand, so the comic company can't really hold that over his head.





Yes, I pulled that number outta my hat. But you get the idea.

[Gingold]

I think the bringing in "outside writers" works if there's a overlap in the fanbases to begin with. Did Kevin Smith writing Daredevil bring in many non-comics fans? Probably not. Did Kevin Smith writing Daredevil attract many comic book reading Kevin Smith fans to Daredevil who otherwise wouldn't have picked the book up? Without a doubt. It's the same with Whedon.

[StrikeForce Albert]

I wonder how much of Astonishing's success comes from Cassaday's pencils as well though? And since it's a new title (albeit with well-established, already-existing characters) there's no way to track the actual impact of bringing Whedon aboard.


I think but Whedon writing has been average at best. I buy it mainly because I love Cassaday art

[StrikeForce Albert]

Of course, the thing with Smith inasfar as 'The Evil That Men Do' was that he submitted the story for approval and got it, and THEN, someone at Marvel got cold feet about the whole 'Black Cat gets raped' thing and demanded a rewrite.
The time to demand a rewrite was during the approval process, not months after the script was approved.
Frankly, I think Smith's behaviour here is perfectly professional. He followed the approval process laid out by Marvel editorial and got throw out when Marvel decided to move the goalposts on him, and when they did, he said, "Well, you knew going into this that I had a window. I can't blow off my other obligations for this so yeah, you get it when you get it."
I don't see the problem.


sorry but I CAN NOT agree with this. He was just to lazy to turn in anything

[howyadoin]

sorry but I CAN NOT agree with this.Based on what, exactly?

[Reptisaurus!]

Based on what, exactly?

Elves. MAGIC elves.

[ChadtheH]

Based on what, exactly?

Well, I can't speak for the original post, but I had a few doubts about it myself. For one thing, I'd love to see a source where Marvel admits it was they, not Smith, who messed things up. And I have a hard time believing Marvel let the story arc go so far down that road before getting cold feet about a rape.

Secondly, even if all that's true and Marvel DID throw him a curve ball, that doesn't explain the entire three year lag-time. I can tell you from experience, writing a decent 22-page script (particularly one like Marvel does with splash panels everywhere) takes a long weekend at best. So Smith didn't have a weekend free for three years?

[jerrymcl89]

I think Marvel and DC just need to make good decisions on when the tradeoff of name recognition and potential lateness is worth it. Whedon doesn't seem to keep to a monthly schedule, but his books (other than "Fray", which he did while running three TV shows) do come out pretty regularly, and his name does seem to boost sales. On "Runaways", which isn't currently a big seller, and which doesn't much impact other titles, I'd say he's definitely worth it.

I'm not so sure that Allan Heinberg, though he may be a very good writer, is either good enough or famous enough to justify only publishing "Wonder Woman" six times a year.

And any project that is as late as Kevin Smith's have been isn't worth doing at all - just have him write the whole thing in advance, or don't bother.

[Ryan Day]

I have a hard time believing Marvel let the story arc go so far down that road before getting cold feet about a rape.

The evidence is against you on that count: For example, Marvel backed out on Milligan & Allred's Princess Diana story so late that Allred had to go back and redraw much of it. There were also rumours abous last-minute rewrites on Phoenix: Endsong.

Obviously no one other than Smith and Marvel know what really went on, but Marvel's shown very little ability to schedule projects properly. Smith probably isn't blameless, but I don't find it hard to believe that Marvel bungled the schedule or insisted on last-minute changes on a story they'd already approved.

[howyadoin]

Secondly, even if all that's true and Marvel DID throw him a curve ball, that doesn't explain the entire three year lag-time. I can tell you from experience, writing a decent 22-page script (particularly one like Marvel does with splash panels everywhere) takes a long weekend at best. So Smith didn't have a weekend free for three years?Beats me. Maybe he was pissed they pulled the rug out from under him.

[Evan Waters]

No, my blue state comment was more of a cultural one -- Heinberg is a graduate of Yale University as well as Jewish, gay, and a veteran of Sex and the City and The O.C. (two shows that typically play better on the coasts). He's a capable writer, but put all those other things together and he's also a walking blue state with hair gel.

And this is a bad thing because... ?

[ChadtheH]

And this is a bad thing because... ?

Didn't say it was bad to hire Heinberg, or other gay and Jewish writers. More power to 'em. It might be bad if ONLY those guys get jobs, though; if you buy the red-state-blue-state idea, that America has two distinct cultures or groups now due to polarization, I would think both groups should find their way into comics equally – unless of course only one of the two groups READS comics, which is possible I guess. Gotta play to your audience.

My sense has been, show me everyone on the payroll at a major comics label who ISN'T atheist, gay, Jewish or neo-pagan (or a quick minority token hire from BET) … and I'll show you the janitor. Obviously a distorted perception -- but there's such a diverse and large set of belief systems and ethnic groups out there in America and yet so much of the talent seems to come from only a few little niche groups?

Much of this argument is undercut though when you consider the work given to Orson Scott Card or Chuck Dixon. So, don't listen to me.