Uncanny X-men 478 - Lets Talk about it! - Spoilers and Stuff

[tunasammiches]

Oof...but Beast's face in that panel...not so good. Tan's finally getting a handle on drawing Nightcrawler's face. Maybe he needs to practice more on Beast's cat face too. Don't get me wrong though, it's actually really tough to draw his new face. (I've tried.)

[Deus ex Chris]

Oof...but Beast's face in that panel...not so good. Tan's finally getting a handle on drawing Nightcrawler's face. Maybe he needs to practice more on Beast's cat face too. Don't get me wrong though, it's actually really tough to draw his new face. (I've tried.)
Tan's getting a handle on everything. I just skimmed the Uncanny issues he recently did with Claremont, and from just six months ago, he's just jumped ahead so much. He's going to be amazing.

[Hi-Fi]

This team should dress like Mal's team in Firefly. I mean, they're in space and Rachel's wearing a mini-skirt. Heh, thinking about it, Rachel should keep her mini-skirt.

By the way, Rachel and Warpath will hook up, obviously. I hope Bru remembers that Nightcrawler was into her, not so long ago.

[Beast]

Tan's getting a handle on everything. I just skimmed the Uncanny issues he recently did with Claremont, and from just six months ago, he's just jumped ahead so much. He's going to be amazing.
Agreed. And yes, drawing Kitty Beast is very hard, almost noone nails it. Cassidey's is one of the few that doesn't make me want to vomit though. Hell, Bachalo doesn't even really even try half the time. That's what's so funny about it. The Apeman version almost everyone could nail. Hell, even Liefeld did a great Beast, compared to most of his other art. And you know it's true if I compliment Liefeld. ;)

[kate-pryde]

I don't think that's true. You mean that the entire End of Greys storyline, where Shi'ar soldiers were hunting her down and branding her and calling her starchild and making all sorts of references to her past being the Phoenix,

No, it is absolute never stated in the End of the Greys or Wanderin' Star that Rachel has ever been Phoenix.

The entire End of the Grey/Wand'ring Star arc makes it out that Jean was the only Phoenix and the Shi'ar want to wipe out all of her relatives. At no time does Ray acknowledge that she's ever been Phoenix:

The beginning of 467: Jean Grey of the X-Men became the Phoenix. Even though she died, Jean had a daughter. Me.

Every time Rachel is called Phoenix, she has to say incessantly, "Phoenix was my mother." At the end of 468, she says things like "I"m not Phoenix" and that the Greys died "because my mother was Phoenix".

At no time is that ever qualified with "I'm not Phoenix anymore." or "I no longer have the Phoenix Force." It's all about friggin' Jean.

It hasn't ever even been explained why the Phoenix force left Rachel.


And who says she's not close to Cable anymore? They've just been doing different stuff, and even when she and the X-Men guest starred in the Cable/Deadpool series, there was one panel (although I woulda like more) where they actually communicated and he called her "sis".

The only thing that's been referenced is that Rachel is Nathan's sister. Nothing about their relationship. Fabian Niceza has said he hasn't read most of Bob Weinberg's issues, so he most likely has absolutely no idea about anything that happened between Ray & Nate in those issues.

Cable has said he owes Rachel a debt that can never be repaid. He will do absolute anything for her. They both have a bond that is far closer than he and Scott have, so if anyone was going to talk Nate down, it should have been Ray. Ray's dialogue there is absolute stupid and makes her seem like she doesn't know her own brother's abilities or mindset. Plus, she and Nate have their psi-link and that was never brought up.

On a side note, why was it that Cable & Ray's psi-link worked when she was 5 billion years in the future when she was imprisoned by Gaunt, but not when she was a couple thousand miles away when she was imprisoned by Bogan?

[DDM]

So Jean was lying when she said she hungered and needed the energy?

No, Dark Phoenix was not lying. She hungered for more energy & absorbed the sun; however, she did not need to absorb the sun's energy to survive. Dark Phoenix's powers were growing geometrically.

[kate-pryde]

The Rachel by the end of Excalibur was a much different person than the Rachel who would throw a hissy fit at Rogue. Hell in Cable, Rachel was shown to have her own life, her own friends and didn't need Jean or Kitty. In CC's Uncanny Rachel could barely go by an issue without mentioning Jean or make her more independent.

Claremont did a good job with Grey's End and Wand'ring Star but they were still "Rachel is a victim" issues.



What's been lost from Rachel's character is the change from after Excalibur 75, which Bob Weinberg did a great job with in Cable.

Rachel chose to not even bother Jean with the news that she was back. She wasn't all about her mommy. She was still using the Phoenix costume and calling herself Phoenix. It wasn't a big deal.

What I also feel is being ignored is Rachel's progress in Excalibur 75 when she stopped being the victim. Ray's still being protrayed as a victim.

When Ray goes to save Captain Britain in Excalibur 75, that panel says "There was something about Rachel. Something different. Possessed of a sense of calm, of happiness, unlike anything I'd ever seen".

Have we seen that Rachel yet in Uncanny? The Rachel who was able to go 2000 years in the future, establish the Askani order to fight Apocalypse and only needed to call on her parents to help when she was dying.

If Rachel Grey ended up in the Askani timeline, she'd probably start crying and wish Jean was there.

[Beast]

No, Dark Phoenix was not lying. She hungered for more energy & absorbed the sun; however, she did not need to absorb the sun's energy to survive. Dark Phoenix's powers were growing geometrically.
Yet she clearly says that she does need it. Therefor she's lying or you're wrong. And considering I'd think Jean as a character knows her motivation better than you do, I'll go with you being wrong.

Dark Phoenix: "I'm ravenous. Before I go on, I need sustenance."

[xmanson]

What's been lost from Rachel's character is the change from after Excalibur 75, which Bob Weinberg did a great job with in Cable.

Rachel chose to not even bother Jean with the news that she was back. She wasn't all about her mommy. She was still using the Phoenix costume and calling herself Phoenix. It wasn't a big deal.

What I also feel is being ignored is Rachel's progress in Excalibur 75 when she stopped being the victim. Ray's still being protrayed as a victim.

When Ray goes to save Captain Britain in Excalibur 75, that panel says "There was something about Rachel. Something different. Possessed of a sense of calm, of happiness, unlike anything I'd ever seen".

Have we seen that Rachel yet in Uncanny? The Rachel who was able to go 2000 years in the future, establish the Askani order to fight Apocalypse and only needed to call on her parents to help when she was dying.

If Rachel Grey ended up in the Askani timeline, she'd probably start crying and wish Jean was there.

And you seem to forget she was captive of Bogan for months doing his dirty work (probably not too pleasing experience), and when she escapes she learns her mother is dead and replaced by a big enemy of the X-Men (not an enemy for years, I know, but rachel really didn't work eith her to warm up all that much).

Part of her current behavior can be easily explained, but I do wish she wasn't such a wimp.


BTW, I hate Excalibur 75 - dreadful issue. Except form one moment when Rachel asks Kitty to hold her if she is ever born in thsi reality. But that was it.

[Slung]

No, Dark Phoenix was not lying. She hungered for more energy & absorbed the sun; however, she did not need to absorb the sun's energy to survive. Dark Phoenix's powers were growing geometrically.

Okay. Here is Jean's exact thoughts at the time: "Transition took more out of me than I anticipated. My power is considerable - and growing- but, for the moment, it's still finite. Like it or not - and I don't - I still have limits. I'm ravelnous. Before I go on, I need sustenance. This star should do nicely."

She obviously needed more energy to go. She had limited power and had depleted them creating the stargate. That is what the issue said.

[kate-pryde]

And you seem to forget she was captive of Bogan for months doing his dirty work (probably not too pleasing experience), and when she escapes she learns her mother is dead and replaced by a big enemy of the X-Men (not an enemy for years, I know, but rachel really didn't work eith her to warm up all that much).

Part of her current behavior can be easily explained, but I do wish she wasn't such a wimp.

But look at Ray's reaction to learning of Scott's death - she want nothing to do with being a superhero. She doesn't want the responsibility of having to save the world. She wants to go to college and live her own life and leave the costume superheroing behind.

If they took the approach that Rachel was upset she'd made that choice, and realized that she can't lead a normal live, then maybe it would make sense. Maybe Rachel even blamed herself for Jean's death and thought that had she re-joined the X-Men instead of going to college that Jean wouldn't have died. Then I can see her calling herself Marvel Girl and trying to be Jean Jr.

Or maybe Ray's had major psychological damage after being held captive by Bogan.

None of that is explained. Instead, Ray's just a whiny brat about Scott being with Emma.

The whole Bogan thing has to be qualified by the fact that Claremont stuck Rachel into that role as a last minute replacement. It wasn't suppose to be Rachel when he first wrote it.

And why is it that Rachel has to be held captive and enslaved so often? It seems the only thing that ever happens to Ray is she's captured and forced to do the dirty work for some villain - Ahab, Spiral, Gaunt, Bogan, Vulcan.

That's what irks me so much about the Bogan thing. It must have been a month after she last helped Cable that she was captured by Bogan. No one noticed, no one went to look for her. Why wouldn't Nathan have noticed she was gone? (That's why I still believe Rachel Summers is still in college and Rachel Grey is an impostor)

[DDM]

Okay. Here is Jean's exact thoughts at the time: "Transition took more out of me than I anticipated. My power is considerable - and growing- but, for the moment, it's still finite. Like it or not - and I don't - I still have limits. I'm ravelnous. Before I go on, I need sustenance. This star should do nicely."

She obviously needed more energy to go. She had limited power and had depleted them creating the stargate. That is what the issue said.

However, as Phoenix, she did not need any sustenance. Phoenix took the star bacause she could--not that she needed it for food. She needed more energy because it would take time to build it back up. Dark Phoenix still had plenty of energy to destroy a starcruiser at the expense of thousands of Shi'ar aboard the ship, make another stargate to re-enter the Milky Way galaxy to return to Earth, defeat the X-Men again, & fight Professor Xavier in a psionic battle before she reverted back to Jean Grey.

Dark Phoenix did not need the star's energy to live. She was ravenous for more sensations she felt her powers, as Phoenix, gives her.

[Beast]

However, as Phoenix, she did not need any sustenance. Phoenix took the star bacause she could--not that she needed it for food. She needed more energy because it would take time to build it back up. Dark Phoenix still had plenty of energy to destroy a starcruiser at the expense of thousands of Shi'ar aboard the ship, make another stargate to re-enter the Milky Way galaxy to return to Earth, defeat the X-Men again, & fight Professor Xavier in a psionic battle before she reverted back to Jean Grey.

Dark Phoenix did not need the star's energy to live. She was ravenous for more sensations she felt her powers, as Phoenix, gives her.
And now you're just arguing semantics. You were wrong, get over it. You're not a machine.

[Slung]

However, as Phoenix, she did not need any sustenance. Phoenix took the star bacause she could--not that she needed it for food. She needed more energy because it would take time to build it back up. Dark Phoenix still had plenty of energy to destroy a starcruiser at the expense of thousands of Shi'ar aboard the ship, make another stargate to re-enter the Milky Way galaxy to return to Earth, defeat the X-Men again, & fight Professor Xavier in a psionic battle before she reverted back to Jean Grey.

Dark Phoenix did not need the star's energy to live. She was ravenous for more sensations she felt her powers, as Phoenix, gives her.
She didn't have the power to destroy a starcruiser, make another stargate or defeat the X-Men again...until after she consumed that star. She literally needed recharging. It wasn't about sensation, it was about needing power. Well, I've said all I can. We can agree to disagree about this small, insignificant point.

[Babylon23]

So, back to the actual issue.

While I understand Ed's comment that the journey is the story, I have to say that the journey isn't really holding my interest plotwise. This has nothing to do with decompression, since I can see what Ed's trying to achieve. I just haven't been interested by the journey to date.

However, the character moments are strong. Ed has a clear understanding of the characters he's using. For me, my interest is drawn more to these moments than to the plot. It seems to me that each character is taking a personal journey that parallels the physical journey the team is on.

As for the artwork, Tan is improving, but I'm still not a fan of his art. I'm hoping that these improvements will continue, and that I may appreciate it more once the story is complete.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Yeah!!! I'm really enjoying the story so far, but WHEN is something BIG gonna happen. I hope its next issue.

[fishtaco]

As Phoenix, she wasn't bad, so that wouldn't have made any sense to show her in the Phoenix costume.Well, there was the time when she tried to obliterate the entire universe to take the Beyonder down with it, or when she stole the life-forces of all of her teammates in another attempt to take him down, some willingly and some not, and then there was the time when she tried to murder Selene in cold blood...

[Daithi]

(That's why I still believe Rachel Summers is still in college and Rachel Grey is an impostor)

I thought that at first during Claremont's Uncanny run. That the Rachel in Uncanny was a clone Sinister created from the DNA he had of her.

However Brubaker is doing a good job at changing my mind.

[jarrod]

Not really. You could claim that Rachel had a fragment of Jean for all those years which doesn't mean that Jean was in Excalibur.
That'd actually make a reasonable degree of sense considering the Excalibur retcons and how the force left Rachel in the timestream... though it'd be rather humorous to reread Excalibur #52 with the knowledge that Jean's actually talking to herself. ;)

It'd also imply that Rachel hasn't really eleveated herself yet, though she pretty clearly has the potential (as all Jean's children do). It'd also make some sense as (by comparison) Rachel was such a rational Phoenix during Excalibur, while Jean's runs as Phoenix left the character more intoxicated or overwhelmed by a greater consciousness. Then again, with Claremont's implications and reassertions that Ray's entirely unique and actually the lone child of the Phoenix, maybe her "elevation" would result in something else entirely.

I'd like to think Nate Grey's "death" was actually him elevating to the status of Phoenix and returning to the WHR. Makes a nice tidy ending actually, fits well with the established character/bloodline and greater Phoenix mythology too.

[Daithi]

That'd actually make a reasonable degree of sense considering the Excalibur retcons and how the force left Rachel in the timestream... though it'd be rather humorous to reread Excalibur #52 with the knowledge that Jean's actually talking to herself. ;)


Well Jean was talking to herself in Endsong.


It'd also imply that Rachel hasn't really eleveated herself yet, though she pretty clearly has the potential (as all Jean's children do).


Which would contradict Excalibur #25 in which Galactus can't separate Rachel and the Phoenix. As Roma states "That child is Phoenix".


It'd also make some sense as (by comparison) Rachel was such a rational Phoenix during Excalibur, while Jean's runs as Phoenix left the character more intoxicated or overwhelmed by a greater consciousness. Then again, with Claremont's implications and reassertions that Ray's entirely unique and actually the lone child of the Phoenix, maybe her "elevation" would result in something else entirely.


Rachel was a more rational Phoenix because of what she went through as hound and also the fact that touched the holoempathic crystal in the Grey household. In a sense she has all of Jean's Dark Phoenix memories.

Claremont always intended Rachel to be Phoenix and not have some shard of Jean. I'd suggest that once Rachel learned that Jean was alive and the Phoenix was a "separate entity" Rachel subconsciously created a separate Phoenix entity for herself which always took the form of her mother.

[jarrod]

Well Jean was talking to herself in Endsong.
Sure... but it lacks the humorous implications. At least in Endsong, we knew Jean was out of whack... this way it sorts of casts a crazier cloud over Jean's entire return, considering a chunk of her psyche might've been hiding out inside her alternate reality daughter the whole time. Not to mention the implication that a chunk was hanging out in her clone too. ;)


Which would contradict Excalibur #25 in which Galactus can't separate Rachel and the Phoenix. As Roma states "That child is Phoenix".
Yeah, though it might not have to read so literally... it could potentially just be referring to Rachel herself as the unique offspring of the Phoenix rather than Rachel operating at elevated Phoenix levels. The phrasing could still work even if we considered Rachel as being Jean boosted.


Rachel was a more rational Phoenix because of what she went through as hound and also the fact that touched the holoempathic crystal in the Grey household. In a sense she has all of Jean's Dark Phoenix memories.
That'd actually work well within the shard interpretation too though.


Claremont always intended Rachel to be Phoenix and not have some shard of Jean. I'd suggest that once Rachel learned that Jean was alive and the Phoenix was a "separate entity" Rachel subconsciously created a separate Phoenix entity for herself which always took the form of her mother.
Oh, I'd agree generally. It's awful to see how Pak's twisted Morrison's fantastic Phoenix revision into this clusterfuck of a story where we've got "shards of Jean" floating out there possessing telepaths. The wonderful thing about Morrison's Phoenix was that it internalised the whole concept, the force literally being those who it manifests within rather than some external benevolent cosmic bird that posesses hosts, and it simultaneously made sense of there being different Phoenix. Pak's basically taken Morrison's unretconing of Jean not being Phoenix, applied Byrne logic, thrown in a touch a editorial mismanagament, and now we've got a benevolvent cosmic Jean out there possessing hosts instead. :(

Within current canon though, I think this might be the best "out" for Rachel. It helps establish her as a viably lasting character somewhat by seperating her history from Phoenix to a degree. We already know she's capable of elevating, so it's not like it entirely undercuts the character's connection to Phoenix, plus it paves the way to try and do what Claremont wanted in establishing Rachel as something new entirely, something unique, more "post-Phoenix". Considering where things stand today, I think I'm more in favor of this...

[AnthonyJ]

Well, there was the time when she tried to obliterate the entire universe to take the Beyonder down with it, or when she stole the life-forces of all of her teammates in another attempt to take him down, some willingly and some not, and then there was the time when she tried to murder Selene in cold blood...
The first two are the same incident, and she was persuaded rather than forced to stop. The third incident wasn't exactly evil; there are people the universe is better off without (and for Wolverine to stop her is the height of hypocrisy).

[Daithi]

he third incident wasn't exactly evil; there are people the universe is better off without (and for Wolverine to stop her is the height of hypocrisy).

Amen. Especially as Wolverine was urging Rachel to kill the Beyonder and expressed regret that he couldn't be there.

[Tilt]

But you guys have to remember that the point of Logan stopping her was not because she was just going to stop a menace-she was planning multiple murders in *very* cold blood. Not a have-to-in-a-fight situation, or even a killing for the greater good kind of thing. Rachel was enraged and planned not just to kill Selene but any of the Hellfire club she found. A path that probably would have led her down the Dark Phoenix road with no return. Logan was trying to prevent that at all costs, the situation would have been more palatable for the readers and Rachel herself I think had Shaw or Emma been in residence rather than Selene and anybody else tried to stop her.

I always wondered where Emma was during the Nimrod fight after...not that she could have helped againt him much at the time but it would have been cool.

Back to this issue, I though Havok was kind of hot in the panel where he blasts the Skrull.

[Daithi]

But you guys have to remember that the point of Logan stopping her was not because she was just going to stop a menace-she was planning multiple murders in *very* cold blood. Not a have-to-in-a-fight situation, or even a killing for the greater good kind of thing. Rachel was enraged and planned not just to kill Selene but any of the Hellfire club she found.


You don't think killing Selene at any rate would have been for the greater good? Logan was a hypocrite. He had no problem with Rachel trying to kill the Beyonder. Yes Rachel had planned to kill all the Hellfire Club but we don't know if she would have actually gone through with it. With Selene there's a huge amount of personal history between the two. Bear in mind that Selene killed a friend of Rachel who offered her friendship when she only just arrived. Logan trying to kill Rachel based on her thoughts and not her actions can't really be justified.


A path that probably would have led her down the Dark Phoenix road with no return. Logan was trying to prevent that at all costs, the situation would have been more palatable for the readers and Rachel herself I think had Shaw or Emma been in residence rather than Selene and anybody else tried to stop her.


But she had already gone Dark Phoenix when she tried to destroy the universe. If Storm was able to talk Rachel out of that why wouldn't Logan tell Storm first. ?

[Cayman]

Ed Brubaker, you've written Catwoman ... but now it's time to write a Cat Woman! Go Hepzibah!

[Beast]

Ed Brubaker, you've written Catwoman ... but now it's time to write a Cat Woman! Go Hepzibah!
Don't give him any ideas. She'll end up smashing face first into the forward viewscreens of the Starjammer.

[Hi-Fi]

Ed Brubaker, you've written Catwoman ... but now it's time to write a Cat Woman! Go Hepzibah!

That's right! We demand some Hepzibah!!

Make her an X-Man, Ed!

[Brian M.]

That's right! We demand some Hepzibah!!

Make her an X-Man, Ed!

You pick, her or Rogue! Other one dies

[fishtaco]

The first two are the same incident, and she was persuaded rather than forced to stop. The third incident wasn't exactly evil; there are people the universe is better off without (and for Wolverine to stop her is the height of hypocrisy).Wolverine stabbed Rachel because if he had allowed Rachel to murder Selene in cold blood (even though she's evil), Rachel would have in all probability become Dark Phoenix. Is Selene's demise worth another 5 billion or more dead?

[Brian M.]

Wolverine stabbed Rachel because if he had allowed Rachel to murder Selene in cold blood (even though she's evil), Rachel would have in all probability become Dark Phoenix. Is Selene's demise worth the death of another 5 billion or more dead?

Depends if keeping Selene alive means the death of more than 5 billion people?

[kate-pryde]

Wolverine stabbed Rachel because if he had allowed Rachel to murder Selene in cold blood (even though she's evil), Rachel would have in all probability become Dark Phoenix. Is Selene's demise worth another 5 billion or more dead?

It wasn't Wolvie's call to make. He should have involved the team. Instead, he jumps to the conclusion that attempting to kill Rachel was the only way to stop her.

Ray was trying to take out a murderer. I can understand Logan not wanting Ray to have any more blood on her hands, but it wasn't like Ray hadn't killed before or that she would go all Dark Phoenix if she did.

[MrSuslov]

Korvus is a test tube Wolvie. Well not really, but I couldn't have been the only one who thought to themselves, "Dammit what is Logan doing in this story!" when they first saw him.
Yeah, you weren't the only one. Of course, I just picked this one up in the store without a whole lot of prep other than "Ooh, Polaris is on the cover!", so I was more than a little ignorant of what was going on. I'm glad it's not Wolverine outright.

How could he survive in space anyway?
I think that the human body can survive in hard vacuum for a brief period, if I recall 2001 right. Exposing yourself to that might not be the best thing in the world, but if it's that or stay and fight that chap, I'd probably go for vacuum, too. (I did enjoy reading that site about Bowman and hard vacuum; thanks for posting it.)

Yay for Polaris; a costume that I can almost not dislike. Brain surgery and petty meanness all in one page; what more can you ask for?

And to top it all off, I'd just seen the movie referenced in the letters column yesterday. If this starship has a gravity drive, then perhaps the X-crew ought to bail out.

[phoenixV]

It's awful to see how Pak's twisted Morrison's fantastic Phoenix revision into this clusterfuck of a story where we've got "shards of Jean" floating out there possessing telepaths. The wonderful thing about Morrison's Phoenix was that it internalised the whole concept, the force literally being those who it manifests within rather than some external benevolent cosmic bird that posesses hosts, and it simultaneously made sense of there being different Phoenix. Pak's basically taken Morrison's unretconing of Jean not being Phoenix, applied Byrne logic, thrown in a touch a editorial mismanagament, and now we've got a benevolvent cosmic Jean out there possessing hosts instead. :(

Within current canon though, I think this might be the best "out" for Rachel. It helps establish her as a viably lasting character somewhat by seperating her history from Phoenix to a degree. We already know she's capable of elevating, so it's not like it entirely undercuts the character's connection to Phoenix, plus it paves the way to try and do what Claremont wanted in establishing Rachel as something new entirely, something unique, more "post-Phoenix". Considering where things stand today, I think I'm more in favor of this...

The shards of Jean are such a silly retcon. The Phoenix as a cosmic force is so much easier to understand as a concept. The Endsong nonsense makes the Phoenix a contrived bunch of absurd gibberish.

I can see how Rachel having a piece of her mother is a compeling story. But these shards of Jean floating around possessing irrelevant people like the Cuckoos makes a mockery of the Phoenix story.

[Mr. Jip]

Hey...Havok's powers. Seeing them from an angle is almost depressing.


teehee!


Um, the issue was BORING.
And the art i find atrocious.
Moving ON!

[Slung]

The shards of Jean are such a silly retcon. The Phoenix as a cosmic force is so much easier to understand as a concept. The Endsong nonsense makes the Phoenix a contrived bunch of absurd gibberish.

I can see how Rachel having a piece of her mother is a compeling story. But these shards of Jean floating around possessing irrelevant people like the Cuckoos makes a mockery of the Phoenix story.
It makes more sense to me than some random force that possesses people like Feron and Necrom and Giraud etc. If it is just tied to Jean (and by that extension Rachel) it ties it up in a much neater package. I agree that having a shard with the cuckoos is lame. But the shards of Jean thing is better than the Cuckoos acutually having the cosmic Phoenix force - cause then it would take it away completely from Jean and Rachel and make just anyone have it.

[phoenixV]

I can't understand why shards of Jean would even be interested in the Cuckoos.

I liked the concept with Feron of someone who wanted power, but the Phoenix Force didn't want to bond with him. It likes Jean, and because of that, Rachel. It's simple.

IMO, the only way to fix mess is this is to give Rachel the Phoenix Force back.

Since loosing the Phoenix force, IMO Rachel has completely lost all of her confidence. All she does is whine and complain.

Rachel needs to be the brash, aggressive, confident woman that defined her in Excalibur.

The damsel in distress role for Rachel doesn't work. How many times has she needed to be saved lately? :rolleyes:

[Ed Brubaker]

Honestly, that's the only version of Phoenix that makes sense to me, either, that it's this force that's been around forever that occasionally takes people over. It being Jean is confusing, but if it's left vague enough, we can all be happy.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Honestly, that's the only version of Phoenix that makes sense to me, either, that it's this force that's been around forever that occasionally takes people over. It being Jean is confusing, but if it's left vague enough, we can all be happy.

Any chance of Rachel going Phoenix? Or atleast being aware of whats going on back on Earth(Phoenix:Endsong) thru her link with Jean and the Phoenix?

[jarrod]

Honestly, that's the only version of Phoenix that makes sense to me, either, that it's this force that's been around forever that occasionally takes people over. It being Jean is confusing, but if it's left vague enough, we can all be happy.
It's Jean, but it's not just Jean. It's internal, not external. Dig?

[fishtaco]

Any chance of Rachel going Phoenix? Or atleast being aware of whats going on back on Earth(Phoenix:Endsong) thru her link with Jean and the Phoenix?Like he can tell you that! :p :D

[Slung]

Honestly, that's the only version of Phoenix that makes sense to me, either, that it's this force that's been around forever that occasionally takes people over. It being Jean is confusing, but if it's left vague enough, we can all be happy.

See Ed, the idea that the Phoenix is Jean "re-fixes" the Dark Phoenix Saga and those of us love those classic Phoenix stories don't ever want to hear the words "coccoon" or "cosmic template" again. Having Jean re-retconned back into the Dark Phoenix Saga makes it a good story again. The "cosmic force" that somehow is also a sentient entity and being never seemed all that compelling of a story. I don't mind a cosmic force that a character taps into (as it seems to be going back to), but I don't like the possession angle. Jean was never possessed - she just was driven crazy. It isn't necessarily that there is no cosmic force - its that what gives the force consciousness is Jean Grey - these are shards of Jean Grey's fractured psyche that are (maybe) fused with the Phoenix force (or somethign). It harkens back to Claremont's classic X-Men backstories #8 and #43. Those are my two cents on that.

[DDM]

Honestly, that's the only version of Phoenix that makes sense to me, either, that it's this force that's been around forever that occasionally takes people over. It being Jean is confusing, but if it's left vague enough, we can all be happy.

The Phoenix never possesses anyone. When Jean Grey became Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #101, she became one with it. The same applies to Rachel Summers. However, unlike Jean, Rachel inherited her ability to wield the powers of Phoenix; likewise, when Rachel became Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #199, she became one with it. There is no possession involved.

[fishtaco]

The Phoenix never possesses anyone. When Jean Grey became Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #101, she became one with it. The same applies to Rachel Summers. However, unlike Jean, Rachel inherited her ability to wield the powers of Phoenix; likewise, when Rachel became Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #199, she became one with it. There is no possession involved.I don't understand why people (that's fans, writers and editors alike) can't grasp at Jean becoming one with Phoenix, and when she died, Rachel. I can't understand it.

[DDM]

I don't understand why people (that's fans, writers and editors alike) can't grasp at Jean becoming one with Phoenix, and when she died, Rachel. I can't understand it.

The editors & maybe the writers have not paid any attention to the important Phoenix stories from Uncanny X-Men #101-137, Uncanny X-Men #184-209, Classic X-Men #8, 13, 24, & Classic X-Men #43.

These are the stories people need to read to know Phoenix. Everything else is just fat for the fire.

Ed Brubaker clearly does not "get" Phoenix.

[fishtaco]

The editors & maybe the writers have not paid any attention to the important Phoenix stories from Uncanny X-Men #101-137, Uncanny X-Men #184-209, Classic X-Men #8, 13, 24, & Classic X-Men #43.

These are the stories people need to read to know Phoenix. Everything else is just fat for the fire.

Ed Brubaker clearly does not "get" Phoenix.Well, he hasn't used Phoenix at all in his run thus far, so I wouldn't say that yet.

[DDM]

Well, he hasn't used Phoenix at all in his run thus far, so I wouldn't say that yet.

He just said:

Honestly, that's the only version of Phoenix that makes sense to me, either, that it's this force that's been around forever that occasionally takes people over. It being Jean is confusing, but if it's left vague enough, we can all be happy.

Phoenix is not some cosmic Malice or female Captain Universe.

[Young Avenger]

I like Ed's idea of what the Phoenix is. It's less confusing and easier to work with.

[rwsmith]

Yeah, but I think the Phoenix is a force that takes people over. It just bonds with them permanently and makes them into Phoenixes like at the end of Morrison's 'Here Comes Tomorrow' arc, therefore they are both possessed by it and become it at the same time.


Do I get my No-Prize now?

[Brian M.]

I love it when people are just flat out rude to creators.

[fishtaco]

Yeah, but I think the Phoenix is a force that takes people over. It just bonds with them permanently and makes them into Phoenixes like at the end of Morrison's 'Here Comes Tomorrow' arc, therefore they are both possessed by it and become it at the same time.


Do I get my No-Prize now?That's less confusing? :confused:

[Ed Brubaker]

Yeah, I love it, too. Especially when they nitpick the details of a quickly jotted off message board post. Possessed by, merged with, became one with... really, is it all that different? I guess enough that you can be pedantic about it, but still...

I just always hated the whole Jean in a cocoon thing, honestly. I've read all about the Phoenix, I just haven't found it to be all that interesting beyond the Dark Phoenix Saga that ended in 137, and I think when they did the whole 'Jean was really in a cocoon' story, that kind of ruined and confused things. And they haven't gotten less confused since.

[Tommy]

Ed I love, love, love your work. If you do not mind me asking a non X-men question... how on earth did you come up with Faghag in Sleeper? I was laughing for ten minutes about that.

[Brian M.]

Yeah, I love it, too. Especially when they nitpick the details of a quickly jotted off message board post. Possessed by, merged with, became one with... really, is it all that different? I guess enough that you can be pedantic about it, but still...

I just always hated the whole Jean in a cocoon thing, honestly. I've read all about the Phoenix, I just haven't found it to be all that interesting beyond the Dark Phoenix Saga that ended in 137, and I think when they did the whole 'Jean was really in a cocoon' story, that kind of ruined and confused things. And they haven't gotten less confused since.

Hopefully those people who are rude won't deter you from posting here. We do enjoy reading your posts.

If there was a way to bring Jean back w/o the Phoenix, I'd love whatever writer did that. As soon as she can be brought back the better in my opinion.

[Ed Brubaker]

The Phoenix never possesses anyone. When Jean Grey became Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #101, she became one with it. The same applies to Rachel Summers. However, unlike Jean, Rachel inherited her ability to wield the powers of Phoenix; likewise, when Rachel became Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #199, she became one with it. There is no possession involved.

So, like in Exorcist, when Regan (the little kid) becomes the devil, she was herself, and then she was both herself and the devil, thus becoming ONE with the devil, right? And it's a movie about a kid who get POSSESSED by the devil. So, you could kind of see how they mean almost the exact same thing, right?

Before, she was Marvel Girl. She comes into contact with the Phoenix and they merge, and the Phoenix becomes part of her, and eventually takes her over until the real Jean inside manages to keep it in check long enough to kill herself. That's how I always read it as a kid, and how I read it again recently.

[Hi-Fi]

Ed, is Hepzibah going to play a big part on this saga??


(this issue wasn't so much like Krull, but it was still really good;) )

[rilokyle]

I love it when people are just flat out rude to creators.
I know, right? I drives me crazy when people make false assumptions that writers have no idea what they're talking about, and tell them to go read old issues. Really nice. It's really respectful and curteous of them.

And another thing: why are we even arguing over the Phoenix Force? I don't see any Phoenix or any Jean appearing in Uncanny X-Men, so this is a moot discussion. Save it for the Warsong thread. To nitpick over every little comment Ed has made is absurd and incredibly rude. This has got to stop.

[Dizzy D]

Ed, is Hepzibah going to play a big part on this saga??


(this issue wasn't so much like Krull, but it was still really good;) )

And are you going to make her a skunk again? *BIG SMILE*

[rilokyle]

Yeah, I love it, too. Especially when they nitpick the details of a quickly jotted off message board post. Possessed by, merged with, became one with... really, is it all that different? I guess enough that you can be pedantic about it, but still...

I just always hated the whole Jean in a cocoon thing, honestly. I've read all about the Phoenix, I just haven't found it to be all that interesting beyond the Dark Phoenix Saga that ended in 137, and I think when they did the whole 'Jean was really in a cocoon' story, that kind of ruined and confused things. And they haven't gotten less confused since.
Ed, don't even bother responding to DDM's offensive comments. It's pointless because he is going to disect every little word you type and turn it against you. You're doing a great job in Uncanny, and I'm really enjoying the story so far. Keep up the good work!!

[Brian M.]

I know, right? I drives me crazy when people make false assumptions that writers have no idea what they're talking about, and tell them to go read old issues. Really nice. It's really respectful and curteous of them.

And another thing: why are we even arguing over the Phoenix Force? I don't see any Phoenix or any Jean appearing in Uncanny X-Men, so this is a moot discussion. Save it for the Warsong thread. To nitpick over every little comment Ed has made is absurd and incredibly rude. This has got to stop.

Seriously, we're not kissing ass or anything it's just called common courtesy. They take time out of their schedules to post on the boards and interact w/ fans and they assualted by nitpicking posters. Disagree fine, but to be just flat out rude is not cool, not cool at all.

[Hi-Fi]

And are you going to make her a skunk again? *BIG SMILE*

Dizzy, in the issue she first appears, she says she's feline. She says to D'Ken: "And cats eat birds".

[Ed Brubaker]

Don't sweat it, I honestly enjoy some banter. It's not a problem, and I like DDM and fishtaco's comments, generally. They make this place less boring, really.

And yeah, Hepzibah is playing a major role in the last five issues of the story, though I'm struggling with how to make her not talk like Yoda and still seem alien. :)

[Beast]

Don't sweat it, I honestly enjoy some banter. It's not a problem, and I like DDM and fishtaco's comments, generally. They make this place less boring, really.

And yeah, Hepzibah is playing a major role in the last five issues of the story, though I'm struggling with how to make her not talk like Yoda and still seem alien. :)
Just no killing anyone, ok. We're tired of it. ;)

[Dizzy D]

Dizzy, in the issue she first appears, she says she's feline. She says to D'Ken: "And cats eat birds".

Skunk-tail, "Mephitisoid" and Mam'selle Hepzibah: 3 strikes for skunk.

[rilokyle]

Don't sweat it, I honestly enjoy some banter. It's not a problem, and I like DDM and fishtaco's comments, generally. They make this place less boring, really.

And yeah, Hepzibah is playing a major role in the last five issues of the story, though I'm struggling with how to make her not talk like Yoda and still seem alien. :)
Well, I'm glad to hear you don't take it to heart.

Oh, and any news on the Havok/Polaris front? They SO want each other. :cool:

[Brian M.]

Just no killing anyone, ok. We're tired of it. ;)

Unless it's the Phoenix Force then go do it...just bring Jean back. I'll buy 100 issues of that issue that Jean Grey comes back. I swear to God I'll put down $300+ dollars for 100 issues.

[Hi-Fi]

And yeah, Hepzibah is playing a major role in the last five issues of the story, though I'm struggling with how to make her not talk like Yoda and still seem alien. :)

Yes!!! Thank you Ed!! Make her shine!!:D

[Hi-Fi]

Skunk-tail, "Mephitisoid" and Mam'selle Hepzibah: 3 strikes for skunk.

Er..she says she's feline. Is she on denial?:confused:

[Flameworthy]

All I ask of this book is to see Polaris kicking lots of ass, and no possesions for her.

BTW, please tell me she can still fly. I don't think I've see her fly once since she lost her mutant powers and gained the new ones. I would hate to think she couldn't anymore, since that's a big part of her characer.

[Beast]

All I ask of this book is to see Polaris kicking lots of ass, and no possesions for her.

BTW, please tell me she can still fly. I don't think I've see her fly once since she lost her mutant powers and gained the new ones. I would hate to think she couldn't anymore, since that's a big part of her characer.
She flew in the first issue, when she was fighting the Anti-Apocalypse folks, if I recall.

[Dizzy D]

Er..she says she's feline. Is she on denial?:confused:

Maybe Shi'ar biology knows no skunks, but Corsair named her after one.

[Deus ex Chris]

All I ask of this book is to see Polaris kicking lots of ass, and no possesions for her.
She kicked ass this issue and made it look easy. I have high hopes for Polaris and Warpath. They need to be owning this book. Ed, you listening? ;)

[rilokyle]

POLARIS AND HAVOK FOR LIFE !!!!!lol111!!!1

[Hi-Fi]

Maybe Shi'ar biology knows no skunks, but Corsair named her after one.

Can we just agree that she's lovely and hilarious?

[Dizzy D]

Can we just agree that she's lovely and hilarious?

Sure.

a hilarious *skunk*. jk.

[Flameworthy]

POLARIS AND HAVOK FOR LIFE !!!!!lol111!!!1

Okay, now that you mentioned this, if they are actually going to get back together I don't want to see them gogo eyed for eachother every issue. I'd like for Polaris to develop a little on her own for chance. Let's see what Polaris can really do without being needy or dependent on a man, because if it isn't Havok it's Iceman. Though I am still against the pairing and forever shall be. Polaris deserves better after all.;)

[rilokyle]

Okay, now that you mentioned this, if they are actually going to get back together I don't want to see them gogo eyed for eachother every issue. I'd like for Polaris to develop a little on her own for chance. Let's see what Polaris can really do without being needy or dependent on a man, because if it isn't Havok it's Iceman. Though I am still against the pairing and forever shall be. Polaris deserves better after all.;)
I loved them when Peter David wrote them, because they were together without being cliched or clingy. She was still her fiesty self, and always called Alex out when he was doing something wrong. They are great together, when written well, and I have faith that Ed can bring them back together and make it work. We need some romance in Uncanny, and Havok and Polaris are the perfect ones to bring it! ;)

[Flameworthy]

I loved them when Peter David wrote them, because they were together without being cliched or clingy. She was still her fiesty self, and always called Alex out when he was doing something wrong. They are great together, when written well, and I have faith that Ed can bring them back together and make it work. We need some romance in Uncanny, and Havok and Polaris are the perfect ones to bring it! ;)

Yeah, but since PAD, Alex has just treated Lorna like dirt. Starting when he went "evil" and almost killed her. It didn't seem like he really missed her at all when he was shacking up with Elektra and Maddy Pryor in Mutant X. While the whole time all Lorna could think about was him. Then when he finally returns, he dumps her at the alter for a bimbo Nurse. He finally wants her back after Annie leaves and she's moved on and dating Bobby. Seriously, the guy make up his mind? It seems like the only time he wants her is when he can't have her.:rolleyes:

[kate-pryde]

And another thing: why are we even arguing over the Phoenix Force? I don't see any Phoenix or any Jean appearing in Uncanny X-Men, so this is a moot discussion.

Waitaminute, aren't the Shi'Ar trying to kill Rachel because of the Phoenix? Didn't they just send some weird Blade of the Phoenix after her? Clearly, the Phoenix is a big part of the current Uncanny plot.

But, if little pieces of Phoenix Force are going around possessing people, I want a return of the Professor X as the Phoenix from Spotlight on the Starjammers.

C'mon, who doesn't want to see the ultimate show down of Phoenix Prof X vs Vulcan with Xavier wearing this costume again:

http://i10.tinypic.com/2v8sqch.jpg

[mattbib]

I'm REALLY enjoying the book. Lots of action this issue, and very clear characterization and even humor. I'm loving Bru's treatment of Polaris. Her response to James about the conscious Skrull was great.

And I'm really starting to like Darwin. For some reason I really liked the scenes of him flying out of the ship and his interaction with Kurt.

Alex and Lorna's discussion about Charles was welcome too; while it's been done before with other characters it keeps up the feeling of distrust these X-Men now have for Xavier.

[Gene M.]

I have a few questions for Mr. Brubaker!

1) What are your thoughts on Axel Alonso being named new group editor?

2) Are there any characters you wanted to use for this story, but just couldn't find a way to fit them in?

3)Why haven't you joined CBR Fantasy Football yet?

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Like he can tell you that! :p :D

Well he could give one of his cryptic answers :D

[Bobster777]

I loved this issue. Very entertaining to see the entire team fighting together. I also really like the art.

[The Fury]

I am having big problems with this book. I want to like it and I want it to be good, but it's lacking somewhere. And in a big way.

The art is not that good. It's better then some artists but it's just...i dunno. For me it doesn't work. Of course I'm just getting pissed off by Nightcrawlers stupid flat hair....seriously.

I am finding the story somewhat annoying. Last issue we saw Vulcan and what he was doing with a cliffhanger...then nothing, not even a page to show what he is doing. I know the whole arc is 12 issues long but once a story and cliffhanger has been shown I'd like it to finish.

I do admit the Warskrulls appearence was a cool one. And references to Annhilation was good as well (although the Shi'Ar should know full well what it is and should have more concerns...especially if the Skrulls are 'fleeing' it).

Overall, I just wish I was enjoying this more. I like Xavier as a character and he is being used well in this book...sadly the only character I think is being used well. I have no love for Darwin and think Vulcan is a stupid character. dialog in this one issue was not great eitehr at times.

I hope it gets better.

[Stagier]

I don't like what's going on with Rachel. It seems every story has her being side swiped by something, and she's being portrayed weak and incompetent.

pace isn't a problem for me, and Tan is a good cover artist. but some of the panels and angles are awkward and i don't think he really gets nightcrawler.
though the new bamf silhouette is cool. as is his rendition of the shi'ar's feather hair. really good.
it does raise the question, how do they have eyebrows and goatees?

darwin is the new sage. look out.

[Affinity]

Just want to say that D'armata is SO DAMN AWESOME.

The stuff he did on HoM was totally different from the dark feel of Captain America and now it's the stuff like Kurt's shade of blue fur and the reds of his costume and the color picks and highlights of Rachel's that just make me WANT A WACOM. BADLY.

[Syzygy]

Wolverine stabbed Rachel because if he had allowed Rachel to murder Selene in cold blood (even though she's evil), Rachel would have in all probability become Dark Phoenix. Is Selene's demise worth another 5 billion or more dead?

I don't recall Wolverine providing this as a reason. As I recall, he just said something like, "It's wrong," or such. His objections in the issue appear entirely moral, as I recall them, and not practical as you suggest.

Unless you have a quote indicating that Dark Phoenix concerns were, indeed, Wolverine's objection, I have to regard it as a projection you're making onto the comic. It comes from you, not Wolverine.

Keep in mind, too, that the X-Men routinely say "If you kill so-and-so, it'll make you just as bad as he is!" This standard usage has nothing to do with Dark Phoenix; they say it about everybody.

If Wolverine didn't mention that he was afraid of Rachel becoming Dark Phoenix as a result of murdering Selene--specifically--then you're wrong in your explanation...because your explanation then comes from your imagination, not the dialogue the writer/character provides.

Quote?

[Syzygy]

I don't understand why people (that's fans, writers and editors alike) can't grasp at Jean becoming one with Phoenix, and when she died, Rachel. I can't understand it.

You don't understand why people don't have exactly the same opinion as you do on a point of nonsensical, comic-book metaphysics that has, itself, been repeatedly retconned and reinterpreted?

Pfffft!

[Syzygy]

So, like in Exorcist, when Regan (the little kid) becomes the devil, she was herself, and then she was both herself and the devil, thus becoming ONE with the devil, right? And it's a movie about a kid who get POSSESSED by the devil. So, you could kind of see how they mean almost the exact same thing, right?

Before, she was Marvel Girl. She comes into contact with the Phoenix and they merge, and the Phoenix becomes part of her, and eventually takes her over until the real Jean inside manages to keep it in check long enough to kill herself. That's how I always read it as a kid, and how I read it again recently.

In some old interview with the creators--Claremont, Byrne, Shooter, etc--I seem to recall that they all had slightly different views on the subject.

When I read the Dark Phoenix Saga, back when it first came out, I assumed that, just as cosmic rays gave the Fantastic Four great powers, they gave Jean, a mutant who already had powers, even more power, the power of a "god". Problem was, just like the scientist in the movie Forbidden Planet, Jean couldn't control such power because her mind and emotions were too human...she still had "monsters from the Id", especially with Mastermind unhinging her from his end. So that's why, it seemed to me, she became Dark Phoenix.

Claremont even stated several times that his original intent was to make Jean be the X-Men's equivalent of Thor, that she was to be the team's "heavy-hitter". In today's terms, we would say: the team Sentry. So at this point, at least, there was no Phoenix "entity".

Later, they wanted to bring Jean back, so they came up with the idea that Jean had been "possessed" by this entity all along, so the B'Dari (broccoli heads) deaths weren't really her fault, it wasn't her. This was the first retcon or reinterpretation, although Byrne later said that this was how he had understood the matter all along.

Then we got more reinterpretations with Jean and Phoenix always having been the same entity, Jean was never, ever really a mortal woman who had merely had a radiation accident, neither had she ever really been a merely mortal woman "possessed" by an alien, cosmic entity.

Since the whole idea of divine beings makes nonsense of the laws of space, time, and causality anyway, I don't see the point in arguing about what the Phoenix "really is". Like the nuns in Sunday school used to tell you, "God" is just beyond human comprehension. The only sense we can make of it, IMO, is to talk about what story the various creators believed they were telling when they told it.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Daithi]

Quote?

"I saw what your mom did Ray, better you die quick and clean than risk going down that road."

Wolverine to Rachel regarding that event, UXM Annual #14.

[DDM]

In some old interview with the creators--Claremont, Byrne, Shooter, etc--I seem to recall that they all had slightly different views on the subject.

When I read the Dark Phoenix Saga, back when it first came out, I assumed that, just as cosmic rays gave the Fantastic Four great powers, they gave Jean, a mutant who already had powers, even more power, the power of a "god". Problem was, just like the scientist in the movie Forbidden Planet, Jean couldn't control such power because her mind and emotions were too human...she still had "monsters from the Id", especially with Mastermind unhinging her from his end. So that's why, it seemed to me, she became Dark Phoenix.

Claremont even stated several times that his original intent was to make Jean be the X-Men's equivalent of Thor, that she was to be the team's "heavy-hitter". In today's terms, we would say: the team Sentry. So at this point, at least, there was no Phoenix "entity".

Later, they wanted to bring Jean back, so they came up with the idea that Jean had been "possessed" by this entity all along, so the B'Dari (broccoli heads) deaths weren't really her fault, it wasn't her. This was the first retcon or reinterpretation, although Byrne later said that this was how he had understood the matter all along.

Then we got more reinterpretations with Jean and Phoenix always having been the same entity, Jean was never, ever really a mortal woman who had merely had a radiation accident, neither had she ever really been a merely mortal woman "possessed" by an alien, cosmic entity.

Since the whole idea of divine beings makes nonsense of the laws of space, time, and causality anyway, I don't see the point in arguing about what the Phoenix "really is". Like the nuns in Sunday school used to tell you, "God" is just beyond human comprehension. The only sense we can make of it, IMO, is to talk about what story the various creators believed they were telling when they told it.

Peace,
Syzygy


Except Chris Claremont already introduced Phoenix as a separate entity in Uncanny X-Men #108 & said again in Uncanny X-Men #125 & in Jean's anguished remarks in Uncanny X-Men #137. Chris Claremont intended for Jean Grey to permanently merge with this separate entity to become one with it. The same applies to Rachel Summers as Phoenix, although she inherited her ability from her mother.

[Slung]

Except Chris Claremont already introduced Phoenix as a separate entity in Uncanny X-Men #108 & said again in Uncanny X-Men #125 & in Jean's anguished remarks in Uncanny X-Men #137. Chris Claremont intended for Jean Grey to permanently merge with this separate entity to become one with it. The same applies to Rachel Summers as Phoenix, although she inherited her ability from her mother.
I always thought the Phoenix seemed more of a separate personality (Cockrum did a sketch of Jean where he said she had a "schizoid personality") than an entity, until 137 that is - which was where I first believe the idea of a cosmic force was introduced. I personally don't think Claremont ever intended for there to be a separate entity. Perhaps a separate force she was tapping into (and that wasn't given credence until 137), but not a sentient entity.

Cockrum's View On Phoenix (hem2.passagen.se/haggblom/pics/lang9.htm)

[fishtaco]

I always thought the Phoenix seemed more of a separate personality (Cockrum did a sketch of Jean where he said she had a "schizoid personality") than an entity, until 137 that is - which was where I first believe the idea of a cosmic force was introduced. I personally don't think Claremont ever intended for there to be a separate entity. Perhaps a separate force she was tapping into (and that wasn't given credence until 137), but not a sentient entity.

Cockrum's View On Phoenix (hem2.passagen.se/haggblom/pics/lang9.htm)Fascinating. Of course, that isn't how it played out in the comics (though that's kind of what we saw in the movies), but I think Jean was more wild and less under control as Phoenix, probably because that's what possessing god-like power did to her, and as we know, consumed her in the end.

[MrSuslov]

(Cockrum did a sketch of Jean...
Yay, what a pleasant find. Thanks for posting it!

[xmanson]

Yay, what a pleasant find. Thanks for posting it!

Jean is so short.... :/

[Slung]

Jean is so short.... :/
Hmmm...I don't think 5'4" is that short (and she's been "re-tooled" to be 5'6" in her more recent bios).

Fascinating. Of course, that isn't how it played out in the comics (though that's kind of what we saw in the movies), but I think Jean was more wild and less under control as Phoenix, probably because that's what possessing god-like power did to her, and as we know, consumed her in the end.
I think its how it was playing in the comics until the retcon - she had a separate personality that was driven crazy by Wyngarde and Frost and she lost it big time. At least, when I read the original stories, thats what I see Claremont, Cockrum and Byrne (well, less with Byrne ;)) getting across.

[MrSuslov]

Jean is so short.... :/
There's additional text that reveals the true height: If you print out the JPG and have Diane Kruger apply a lemon juice solution, you see additional text:

"Phoenix is approx. 5'4", weighs about 110 lbs. Phoenix Effect adds six inches in height."

That's why there's dead space behind the period, which is really part of a semi-colon. The modern Jean is in the neighborhood of 5'10"; that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D

Blaming everything---including five billion disposable D'Bari---on Jason Wyngarde and Co. is right and just.

[Darkwave]

"The modern Jean is in the neighborhood of 5'10"; that's my story and I'm sticking to it."

From "Secrets of the X-Men" by Robert Weinberg (2006): Jean Grey is 5'6", and 110-115 pounds

From "The Marvel Encyclopedia - X-men" (2003) : Jean Grey is 5'8" - 143 pounds.

[DDM]

I always thought the Phoenix seemed more of a separate personality (Cockrum did a sketch of Jean where he said she had a "schizoid personality") than an entity, until 137 that is - which was where I first believe the idea of a cosmic force was introduced. I personally don't think Claremont ever intended for there to be a separate entity. Perhaps a separate force she was tapping into (and that wasn't given credence until 137), but not a sentient entity.

Cockrum's View On Phoenix (hem2.passagen.se/haggblom/pics/lang9.htm)

Again, I cite Uncanny X-Men #108 when Chris Claremont uses the narrator voice to explain the Phoenix was summoned by Jean Grey specifically; he goes on further to explain the Phoenix is a being of energy which the orb within the M'Krann Crystal begins to absorb Jean Grey after she touches it.

Yes, Phoenix is far more wilder than Jean Grey, but they remain fundamentally the same person. Phoenix is wilder & loves using her powers since she feels great passions from the use of powers as Phoenix. Jean Grey is more reserved.

[jarrod]

Yeah, I love it, too. Especially when they nitpick the details of a quickly jotted off message board post. Possessed by, merged with, became one with... really, is it all that different? I guess enough that you can be pedantic about it, but still...
Not all that different I'd agree, but all are still wrong. Phoenix is a genetic mutation, potentially the ultimate end purpose of mutation.

It's not about merging or possessing... it's quite literally evolving and awakening. To ensure evolution at that.

[Syzygy]

"I saw what your mom did Ray, better you die quick and clean than risk going down that road."

Wolverine to Rachel regarding that event, UXM Annual #14.

Okay, it looks like he had it in mind. I didn't recall it from X-Men #207 (was that the Selene issue?)...but if Wolvie mentioned it later, okay....

If this was Wolvie's concern, I see the logic...but I would have preferred it spelled out in that issue. It looked to me like more of that tiresome "if you kill the killer, you'll be as bad as she is" stuff.

[fishtaco]

Don't sweat it, I honestly enjoy some banter. It's not a problem, and I like DDM and fishtaco's comments, generally. They make this place less boring, really.If I came off as rude or even hostile to you, then I'm really sorry because that wasn't my intention. I don't know how much control you have over Rachel's codename and image, as well as what parts of her history (before and after her first appearance in Uncanny X-Men #141) that Marvel allows you to reference, assuming you do wish to reference something. Rachel is my favorite character, but I'm not mad at you or any of the other writers or editors that have worked on her in the last 2-3 years or so. I guess I'm just extremely dissapointed. Not even my favorite writer made me continue to like the character. But anyway, I apologize if I came off in a bad way.

[Slung]

If I came off as rude or even hostile to you, then I'm really sorry because that wasn't my intention. I don't know how much control you have over Rachel's codename and image, as well as what parts of her history (before and after her first appearance in Uncanny X-Men #141) that Marvel allows you to reference, assuming you do wish to reference something. Rachel is my favorite character, but I'm not mad at you or any of the other writers or editors that have worked on her in the last 2-3 years or so. I guess I'm just extremely dissapointed. Not even my favorite writer made me continue to like the character. But anyway, I apologize if I came off in a bad way.
Yeah, Rachel has been a shadow of her former self since her return. It's frustrating when your favorite character is treated poorly (mine is dead :( errr...no, she's recollecting herself. I can't even keep track. It took Jean over ten years just to get the Phoenix codename back...and a couple more to get even a spark of the imagery. And then they killed her...again.) I hope Rachel gets to kick some major booty soon. She deserves to go back to being force to be reckoned with (no pun intended...I don't think).

[Daithi]

If this was Wolvie's concern, I see the logic...but I would have preferred it spelled out in that issue. It looked to me like more of that tiresome "if you kill the killer, you'll be as bad as she is" stuff.

Which is funny considering that one of Claremont's main criticisms is that he spells out everything. Ghosts is a great issue and I think it's for the best that Logan didn't do a DDM and say

"Rachel did you know in Uncanny X-Men 108, Jean Grey did this? No then what about UXM 116? 132?"

Of course Logan might not have been thinking about Rachel going Dark Phoenix at the time. He might have used it the annual because it was his trump card and Rachel wouldn't have a defense against it. He wasn't going to win with just "I can't let you kill Selene" but "I can't let you go Dark Phoenix". So umm maybe you both have a point. :)

[Butch Mapa]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought Billy's artwork got better in this issue. I thought I was seeing things for a bit there.

[DDM]

Okay, it looks like he had it in mind. I didn't recall it from X-Men #207 (was that the Selene issue?)...but if Wolvie mentioned it later, okay....

If this was Wolvie's concern, I see the logic...but I would have preferred it spelled out in that issue. It looked to me like more of that tiresome "if you kill the killer, you'll be as bad as she is" stuff.

The whole storyline is Uncanny X-Men #207-209. Rachel intends to murder any of the Lords Cardinal present within the Hellfire Club as a means of dealing with her "ghosts." At the same time, Rachel has an unbreakable psionic rapport when she tried to supercharge Wolverine's healing factor a second time, but this time something went wrong; Phoenix has a psionic rapport with Logan--often blanking out for a hours at a time since she is connected to Wolverine's healing. When she "blanks out" her dreams are Wolverine trying to kill her. Selene, the Black Queen, would have died had not Wolverine stopped Phoenix. However, Wolverine is right to say it was not a fair fight since Phoenix took the Black Queen unawares.

Phoenix is obsessed in attempting to make right her past wrongs, often overcompensating for her Hound behavior.

When Phoenix runs into Wolverine, Psylocke & Jubilee, she is still mad Wolverine tried to kill her. This is when Wolverine says he was afraid if Rachel had succeeded in murdering Selene in the heat of passion she might have become a second Dark Phoenix...

[Mariah]

Dizzy, in the issue she first appears, she says she's feline. She says to D'Ken: "And cats eat birds".
Aren't skunks and cats related? Like the way, wolves, coyotes, foxes, and dogs related?

Oh, and Ed, I love how you made me love Warpath and Polaris all over again. I haven't cared for Jimmy since Uncanny 193, and his first new mutant issues. Is there anyway you could change his name back to Thunderbird in homage to his brother again?(i'm saying this, because it was my favorite codename for him, and I hate T-Bird III)

[fishtaco]

When Phoenix runs into Wolverine, Psylocke & Jubilee, she is still mad Wolverine tried to kill her. This is when Wolverine says he was afraid if Rachel had succeeded in murdering Selene in the heat of passion she might have become a second Dark Phoenix...This is one of my favorite scenes ever.

[Cayman]

Aren't skunks and cats related? Like the way, wolves, coyotes, foxes, and dogs related?

Oh, and Ed, I love how you made me love Warpath and Polaris all over again. I haven't cared for Jimmy since Uncanny 193, and his first new mutant issues. Is there anyway you could change his name back to Thunderbird in homage to his brother again?(i'm saying this, because it was my favorite codename for him, and I hate T-Bird III)

Maybe he could gut Thunderbird III with his vibranium knives?

[Flameworthy]

Maybe he could gut Thunderbird III with his vibranium knives?

I'd pay to see that!

I like James going by the Warpath codename though. It just suits him far more and makes him more original, rather than him trying follow in footsteps of his older brother. I already have a problem with another character trying to mooch off their dead relative in a this book. I don't want to see the same thing happen with Jimmy.

[Affinity]

I love Warpath's new costume.

[jarrod]

I actually displike Warpath's cotume... it seems like a total step back from the (way hotter) buzzcut & chaps look Pollina designed for him in later X-Force. Now he just looks like his brother again. :/

[rwsmith]

There is nothing hot about a buzzcut and chaps. Nothing.

[Affinity]

Ask Novaya.

lolz srsly!!111