When _____ Became A _____ We Lost A Damn Good _____

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

In the comics industry, it's not the norm, but it's not uncommon, for people to switch from one job to another.
John Byrne started as a penciler, and soon became a writer as well.
Todd Mcfarlene started as an artist, but became, well, whatever the hell he became.
I was wondering if anyone can think of other examples where a pro changed jobs, and specifically, if you think we lost out because of it.

My two are:

Robert Kirkman.
I was reading my Walking Dead hardcover last night, and was thinking about how sweet his lettering is in that, and in Invincible.
Now I love his writing, but I can't help but feel with him taking on so many books, that when Robert Kirkman became a full time writer, we lost a damn good letterer.

Archie Goodman.
Archie Goodman was a great editor, and got many fine books made - which the creatives often say was soley because of his input.
But reading over books he wrote in the 70's, from Tomb Of Dracula to Manhunter, I think that when Archie Goodman became an Editor, we lost a damn good writer.

[DWEarhart]

When Alan Moore became an arbitrator for independence we lost a damn good heretic.

But, it depends on whose standards your courting.

I think he's a fine man, all around.

Don't get me started on McFarlane, though his current Wildcats alternate cover is practically a joke.

When Phil Hester became a writer, we lost a damn good.....ah, we didn't lose anything. Phil Hester is well capable of handling both writing and artist chores on whatever, whenever he wants.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

When Bob Shreck became an editor of Batman we lost a damned good chunk of Batman quality.

[Agentum]

Yes Archie Goodwin is underrated i think, he had so many good ideas.

His stuff in the Warren books is good so it seems he had the ideas from the begining, not hard to understand why he remained in the comic field until he died.

[Bright-Raven]

Ten-Eyed:When Bob Shreck became an editor of Batman we lost a damned good chunk of Batman quality.

Funny, I was thinking that happened some twenty years ago, after this overrated elseworlds crap story called THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS got published. And it certainly happened after a little story called KNIGHTFALL got published some fourteen, fifteen years ago. Long before Bob Schreck ever got involved with the character.

The only truly readable BATMAN stories I can recall seeing in the past four years were the DARK DETECTIVE mini by Englehart and Rogers (edited by Joey Cavalieri) and BATMAN & THE MONSTER MEN by Matt Wagner (edited by the aforementioned Bob Schreck). Admittedly I may have missed something along the lines, but they certainly weren't in the monthly grabage pits that are the Bat-Line of titles. It would have had to have been in a miniseries standing separate from that stuff.

And that's the way the Batman books have been for nearly fifteen years now, man. Bob's certainly not to blame for that - at least not singularly. So how about you try someone else, eh?

[Bright-Raven]

When Louise Simonson, Ann Nocenti, and Jo Duffy all became freelance writers and stopped editing comics, we lost three of the best editors Marvel had in the last twenty years.

[The Xenos]

When George Lucas became a writer/director, we lost a damn good storyteller. I'd also add that becoming a father didn't seem to help either.

[pennywisdom]

When Bendis became a superhero writer, we lost a damn good hardboiled crime/noir writer.

That was a huge loss. I will gladly debate anyone who says that New Avengers is a better comic than Torso.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Ten-Eyed:

Funny, I was thinking that happened some twenty years ago, after this overrated elseworlds crap story called THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS got published. And it certainly happened after a little story called KNIGHTFALL got published some fourteen, fifteen years ago. Long before Bob Schreck ever got involved with the character.

The only truly readable BATMAN stories I can recall seeing in the past four years were the DARK DETECTIVE mini by Englehart and Rogers (edited by Joey Cavalieri) and BATMAN & THE MONSTER MEN by Matt Wagner (edited by the aforementioned Bob Schreck). Admittedly I may have missed something along the lines, but they certainly weren't in the monthly grabage pits that are the Bat-Line of titles. It would have had to have been in a miniseries standing separate from that stuff.

And that's the way the Batman books have been for nearly fifteen years now, man. Bob's certainly not to blame for that - at least not singularly. So how about you try someone else, eh?


Denny O'Neil for letting Doug Moench flame out on the flagship title in the late 90s. Denny for letting his final act as editor be the rape and murder of Vesper Fairchild. Uh, Doug Moench having Batman rage against the Red Rain when Catwoman got hurt back in the 380s of Batman during the original Crisis. Uh, the edict that made the Dark Detective mini-series end up with Bruce and Silver not hooking up. (btw sequel coming soon). The bastards (you know who you are) who slammed Larry Hama's Batman run unmercilessly and got him turfed off the book.

On that...you got rid of him but you got Batgirl digging up Vesper's corpse, Bruce buying a gun to see what it felt like and Bill Goldberg, Bruce Wayne's bastard half-brother so maybe revenge is sweet.

More?

Waaay back in late 1979 in Detective 485, the whole Kathy Kane murder by Bronze Tiger crap.That actually makes Vesper Fairchild's badly characterisation on her return and subsequent murder by NotBatgirl's father (All-Star Batgirl soon) not as crappy as it really, really was.

I'm sure I'll think of something later to put in.

Rephrasing...We lost a good Dark Horse editor when Bob Schreck came to the D.C. proper.

[Brian Cronin]

Indy Bendis for Superhero Bendis WAS a net loss, quality-wise.

Not that he hasn't done some fine superhero work, as well.

-Brian

[Bright-Raven]

Ten Eyed:

Glad to see that you realize it's a much larger issue on the Bat Books and understand that bad stories don't come from a single editor.

Now, the reality is Dark Horse lost Schreck to Oni Press (which Schreck co-founded) long before he ever went to DC.

*************

RE: Bendis --

Nah, we didn't lose the crime writer. Not yet anyway. He simply resides on POWERS. He just doesn't get any notice because everyone seems to think that the Marvel characters are oh so special. :rolleyes:

[Tommy]

Nah, we didn't lose the crime writer. Not yet anyway. He simply resides on POWERS. He just doesn't get any notice because everyone seems to think that the Marvel characters are oh so special. :rolleyes:
Bendis on Alias was phenominal. I was one of the best books Marvel put out in years. Sadly Bendis on New Avengers was not so good.

[pennywisdom]

For the record, I have nothing at all against Marvel and I certainly have nothing against superhero comics. I just think Bendis is better suited, as a writer, to hardboiled crime than he is to capes and superpowers. When he made the switch, it was, as Brian Cronin called it, a net loss.

Although creators should be willing to stretch out a bit, there's a lot to be said for knowing your "voice" as a writer and I don't think Bendis' voice works as well with the Avengers as it does with Eliot Ness. Just my .02.

The fact that he made the switch nearly completely is the disappointing part. True, there's Powers, but that's about it. When Azzarello took over Superman for a year, it's not like he QUIT 100 Bullets. Guys who are extraordinarily talented at a specific genre should embrace what they're good at, and take on more lucrative superhero projects as a side venture. Bendis doesn't even write Daredevil anymore.

[Bright-Raven]

Uhm... maybe Bendis just needs a break from crime fiction for a while, and will come back to it when his mind is refreshed.

[Shellhead]

When George Lucas became a writer/director, we lost a damn good storyteller. I'd also add that becoming a father didn't seem to help either.

And what happened to the talented George Lucas who wrote and directed American Graffiti? It's difficult to believe that the same guy had anything to do with the atrocious dialogue in several Star Wars movies.

[Dan Apodaca]

Uhm... maybe Bendis just needs a break from crime fiction for a while, and will come back to it when his mind is refreshed.

You know, you don't have to defend everybody. This isn't an attack thread.

[Bright-Raven]

You know, you don't have to defend everybody. This isn't an attack thread.

Where exactly did you see any posting by me defending McFarlane, Lucas, Goodwin, Hester, et. al.?

You sure have a funny definition of "everybody".

Secondly, while I agree with Penny that Brian Bendis' creator owned works are better than his Marvel works, I don't think that's limited to any specific genre or that because he's not writing a specific genre in favor of another, that anyone *lost* anything by his decision. If you want to coin Brian Bendis properly, it's very simple:

When Brian Bendis became a corporate freelancer, we lost a damn good independent creator.

It really is that damned simple.

[howyadoin]

Bendis doesn't even write Daredevil anymore.There hasn't been any loss of quality on the book, though. If anything, it's better now.

[Reptisaurus!]

Always dug Bendis' stuff most when he wrote AND drew, with a teeny-tiny handful of exceptions. Including Powers. Which reminds me.

I'd much, much rather see Michael Avon Oeming draw than write. Waste of one of the greatest pencilers of our time.

Likewise, I bet Green Arrow would be ten times awesomer with Judd Winick drawing and someone else writing it. I just found out that Amanda Connor is one of my top five (current) fave superhero artists, and he could do really good work in the same vein.

[Apathy Boy]

When Len Wein became a writer, we lost a damn good editor.

I've been reading a lot of DC books from the early '80s lately, and I was surprised to see how many of them were edited by Wein. Let's not forget that Wein was the editor for a good chunk of WATCHMEN, and he actually had the stones to tell Alan Moore that the story deserved a better ending than a rip-off of The Outer Limits. Hard to imagine an editor standing up to a superstar like that today.

By contrast, Wein's writing work after his editing stint always struck me as sort of blah.

[Hombre]

Actually, it was a shame for Marvel to lose Wein in the first place.

He had served as its editor in chief for a couple of years, while also writing. And he wrote everyone from Luke Cage to Iron Man to the Fantastic Four. His tenure on the Mighty Thor, the Hulk and the Amazing Spider Man resulted in some of the finest moments in the long history of those books.

I think his vision did justice to the inspiration behind the Universe Stan and the others created like that of few others.

His stories tried to find the best and most resilient qualities of the human spirit when confronted with life's greatest tragedies and seemingly most hopeless battles. There is more more heart, humor, sensitivity and excitement to be found in them than in those of all of today's superstars combined.

[dancj]

When Andy Hefler became an editor we lost a damn good writer.

(I might be talking crap here. I suspect that Hefler might have been an editor before he was a writer)

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

When George Lucas became a writer/director, we lost a damn good storyteller.

Well he wrote and directed his first three films, and they were pretty good.

Particuarly THX 1138, co-written by editor/sound designer extrodinarre, Walter Murch.
Watch THX today, and it's really hard to connect in your head that it's the same guy who did the star wars prequels.
The drop in the quality of his output is probably the biggest I've ever seen.
(Rivalled only by Coppola going from his 70's output to 'Jack' starring Robin Williams).

[Reptisaurus!]

When Len Wein became a writer, we lost a damn good editor.

I've been reading a lot of DC books from the early '80s lately, and I was surprised to see how many of them were edited by Wein. Let's not forget that Wein was the editor for a good chunk of WATCHMEN, and he actually had the stones to tell Alan Moore that the story deserved a better ending than a rip-off of The Outer Limits. Hard to imagine an editor standing up to a superstar like that today.

By contrast, Wein's writing work after his editing stint always struck me as sort of blah.

Well, true.

Also a lot of his writing work before his editing stint.

He had amazing runs on Swamp Thing and Justice League. Grant Morrison AND the whazziz name Identity Crisis guy have both cited Wein's run on JLA as they're favorite. (Also introduced the almighty Stegron in Marvel Team-Up! I love Segron.) But most of his (non-Stegron) Marvel work just felt like weak sauce t'me. Same deal as Gil Kane. Amazing work for DC, seventeen steps down the quality ladder the second he came to Marvel. He's certainly the worst Spidey writer in the first 200 issues.

And, ohyeah, agree with the "editor" bit as well. And, strangely, the stuff he edited for DC was, again, much stronger than the stuff he edited for Marvel.

[stealthwise]

Well he wrote and directed his first three films, and they were pretty good.

Particuarly THX 1138, co-written by editor/sound designer extrodinarre, Walter Murch.
Watch THX today, and it's really hard to connect in your head that it's the same guy who did the star wars prequels.
The drop in the quality of his output is probably the biggest I've ever seen.
(Rivalled only by Coppola going from his 70's output to 'Jack' starring Robin Williams).

Lucas didn't direct Empire, and that was the best one.

[MacQuarrie]

And what happened to the talented George Lucas who wrote and directed American Graffiti? It's difficult to believe that the same guy had anything to do with the atrocious dialogue in several Star Wars movies.
Simple. Lucas' semi-autobiographical movie was heavily re-written (especially the dialogue) by Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck, who went on to royally screw up Howard the Duck. Lucas' best Star Wars film, the Empire Strikes Back, was similarly rewritten by Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan. George is a decent plotter, but he has a tin ear for dialogue.

[Hombre]

most of his (non-Stegron) Marvel work just felt like weak sauce t'me.

In other words, it's official. Comics should be good, Len Wein need not apply.

Fair enough. He may have been in fact merely a good editor, and only for DC at that. But, for what it's worth, I have always considered the Thor and Hulk comics he created with John and Sal Buscema, Walter Simonson, Tony De Zuniga, Ernie Chan and others as the very definition of good comics, at least in the super-hero genre, and his Amazing issues also among the very best in that series.

[Phil Hester]

Nice pull on Len Wein. Never gets enough credit, especially for Swamp Thing. I think people forget that the book continued to be excellent well after Berni left. Wein & Redondo made very memorable comics.

[Reptisaurus!]

In other words, it's official. Comics should be good, Len Wein need not apply.

Fair enough. He may have been in fact merely a good editor, and only for DC at that.

Oh lord no. Not what I'm sayin' at all. Just that his work for DC was amazingly wondefully Tolkeinesque elves leaping about a moonlit glade awesomely good and that his work for Marvel... um... wasn't. Not BAD either, mind. I'm not callin' his Amazing issues terrible... Just worse than Stan, Coway, and Wolfman. And I haven't read any of his stuff on Thor, so that might be wonderful. But there's been nothing in his Marvel repetoire that I'd rate as an insanely inspired comics masterpiece lup there with Swamp Thing and JLA circa issue 100. (And Phantom Stranger is ususally lumped in here, too. But I haven't read that either.)

I certainly didn't dig his Marvel work as much as you, but I'd still consider it good. Just not "AHHHHH! That's so brilliant my brain just popped!"

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

RE: Bendis --

Nah, we didn't lose the crime writer. Not yet anyway. He simply resides on POWERS. He just doesn't get any notice because everyone seems to think that the Marvel characters are oh so special. :rolleyes:

Well he would've been better off starting Powers on a stronger note, if he wanted people to read it.
The first storyline has the bad guy turn himself in - in a piss-poor attempt at Seven, and the second is a bunch of kids being hunted who hired the killer on themselves (solved without much policework).
That was two stories in a row with anti-climax endings - it can be a nice trick if done really well ONCE.
After two storylines like that, I had no motivation to buy the third.

I think Bendis just isn't suited to monthlies - all his great work has been in mini's.

[Hombre]

I certainly didn't dig his Marvel work as much as you, but I'd still consider it good. Just not "AHHHHH! That's so brilliant my brain just popped!"

The beauty of the classic Marvel universe, of which I'm a fan, is that you had certain common themes, and a variety of ways to express them.

I very much love what Kirby did in the mid 70s. He was telling the same story his contemporaries did, using a different language, one that was direct, fascinating, slightly surreal and subtly symbolic.

But at the heart of his work were the same values that you can find in Don McGregor's or Len Wein's work. Don't give up, have hope beyond despair, faith beyond defeat, believe in the nobility and dignity that is in your heart if you embrace it, that appearances can be deceiving and your actions alone are the measure of your soul.

You won't find much in the way of sublime symbolism in Wein's best Marvel stories. But you will find that he tried to make his heroes inspiring for the reader, that he believed what made them heroes was their gentleness and their loyalty and the love and compassion in their heart.

At any rate, if there's one thing I learned from these comics, and any other form of art I ever came across, is that you have to let them inspire you to become a better person... "who would I be then when I listen to a piece of music" said once a brave man... so please don't mistake any argument on my part as a sign of disrespect for you or your opinion. Comics, and talking about them, should be good, and a fun and enriching experience also.

[Iangould]

In the comics industry, it's not the norm, but it's not uncommon, for people to switch from one job to another.
John Byrne started as a penciler, and soon became a writer as well.
Todd Mcfarlene started as an artist, but became, well, whatever the hell he became.
I was wondering if anyone can think of other examples where a pro changed jobs, and specifically, if you think we lost out because of it.

My two are:

Robert Kirkman.
I was reading my Walking Dead hardcover last night, and was thinking about how sweet his lettering is in that, and in Invincible.
Now I love his writing, but I can't help but feel with him taking on so many books, that when Robert Kirkman became a full time writer, we lost a damn good letterer.

Archie Goodman.
Archie Goodman was a great editor, and got many fine books made - which the creatives often say was soley because of his input.
But reading over books he wrote in the 70's, from Tomb Of Dracula to Manhunter, I think that when Archie Goodman became an Editor, we lost a damn good writer.

To pick a name that you'll recognise but that'll be meaningless to most Americans when Dave De Vries became a writer we lost an extraordinary colorist.

Although we found him again because these days he mostly colors Glenn Lumsden's illustration work for the AFR.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

All this talk of Len Wein has me thinking. It doesn't matter how great an editor he was, whether he wrote good stories and was kind to small animals and children. He created this.

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/shunter/wolverine.gif

And for that alone, he deserves a kick in the balls.

[Reptisaurus!]

All this talk of Len Wein has me thinking. It doesn't matter how great an editor he was, whether he wrote good stories and was kind to small animals and children. He created this.

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/shunter/wolverine.gif

And for that alone, he deserves a kick in the balls.

I've heard John Romita Sr. deserves the lion's share of the creator credit.

Anyway, those first ten issues of Swamp Thing make up for a hundred crappy Wolverine stories.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

I've heard John Romita Sr. deserves the lion's share of the creator credit.

Anyway, those first ten issues of Swamp Thing make up for a hundred crappy Wolverine stories.

John Romita Snr made up for any involvement with his Spiderman stuff.

Those Swamp Things go a fair way to healing the Wolverine wound but he's just lucky he hooked up Gerry Conway, Don Newton and Gene Colan on the Batman titles.

[Hombre]

I've heard John Romita Sr. deserves the lion's share of the creator credit.

Anyway, those first ten issues of Swamp Thing make up for a hundred crappy Wolverine stories.

Typically uninspired comics that made use of this awful monster, this man that is anything but complex, tortured and charismatic:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/96475128300.4.gif

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/97792366288.142.gif

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/97792366288.172.gif

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/97792366288.205.gif

[TheTen-EyedMan]

[QUOTE=Hombre]Typically uninspired comics that made use of this awful monster, this man that is anything but complex, tortured and charismatic:

I'd love to think you're joking but you're not...are you.

Whoever reads crap comics becomes crap themselves.

http://www.comicartville.com/emuweinlg.jpg

A new Batman story: The Ballsac Bullseye.

:mad:

[dancj]

[quote=Hombre]

http://www.comicartville.com/emuweinlg.jpg



OMG - That man has a head growing off his left shoulder!

[Kaos]

.................................................. .........I don't know what to say....thats just weird

[Sean Walsh]

When George Lucas became a writer/director, we lost a damn good storyteller. I'd also add that becoming a father didn't seem to help either.

Couldn't disagree more on that first comment. He wrote/directed the first STAR WARS movie, remember.

Couldn't agree more with that second comment. :) :p

[Sir Tim Drake]

Archie was one of the top five comics writers of all time. He had an intuitive artist's understanding of page layout and composition, and his prose was extremely effective in a simple way. His best work includes Manhunter, the Batman stories from around that time, and the early Warren stories.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Archie was one of the top five comics writers of all time. He had an intuitive artist's understanding of page layout and composition, and his prose was extremely effective in a simple way. His best work includes Manhunter, the Batman stories from around that time, and the early Warren stories.

http://www.erbzine.com/mag10/goodwin4.jpg

I miss his influence.

[carpboy]

Anyway, those first ten issues of Swamp Thing make up for a hundred crappy Wolverine stories.

Which would cover maybe a years worth?