Claremont's run: When his X-Men started to get mediocre... [Archive]

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Norrin Radd

08-30-2006, 10:21 PM

X-Men wasn't that great up until Claremont. After Claremont started, it was arguably the best comic book out there. X-Men was still the best under Claremont, imo, but that's another matter. X-Men's peak under Claremont, though this may be a cliche, was with the Dark Phoenix Saga. Afterwards, it got progressively worse, but it was still very good throughout the Cockrum, Smith, and Romita years. I personally think the run started to go sour after Silvestri started. It didn't have anything to do with his art; he's one of the best X-Men artists. However, I think back to the Adversary arc. This was supposed to be a major story arc where the X-Men make this major sacrifice and "die" for the Earth. This was part of the vaunted "Fall of the Mutants" storyline. I dunno, it just didn't work for me at all. It was trying to be important and epic, but it wasn't. Adversary wasn't a great villain. Afterwords we got the adventures in Australia, then Inferno and Genosha, etc. It just wasn't the same though. I don't think the title really recovered after that, except for a few brightspots.

Thoughts?

Beast

08-30-2006, 10:27 PM

You'd be surprised, there's a lot of love for the Outback years around here.

Syzygy

08-30-2006, 10:34 PM

When did Claremont go bad?

When he "revealed" (retconned) the idea that Tessa (Sage) was secretly acting as Xavier's spy all along, even though the Hellfire Club took the X-Men by surprise every time....

Peace,
Syzygy

rilokyle

08-30-2006, 10:35 PM

Yeah, what Beast said. I loved the Outback era. For one, I loved the team, I loved the art, and I loved the stories. That Genosha story was great. Inferno was amazing. And the Siege Perilous stuff was captivating. And even after that, Claremont was still writing great stories. The Muir Island/Shadow King storyline was interesting, and I loved seeing how the Siege Perilous changed Psylocke, Dazzler, Collossus, Storm, Havok, and Rogue. And how can you forget The X-Tinction Agenda? That was also a great storyline.

I don't think Claremont ever lost steam in his long run. He was still going strong when X-Men (vol. 2) started, and I think if he stayed the 90s wouldn't have gone so downhill.

However, when he returned to the X-Men, I do agree that the stories became kinda mediocre. His latest run on Uncanny X-Men was hit or miss at best. Even still, Chris' got game.

Beast

08-30-2006, 10:36 PM

brundlefly

08-30-2006, 10:37 PM

I'm with you, Beast. Claremont finished strong even with editorial interference in the Shadow King saga. I thought X-MEN 1-3 served as a good finale to his run, given the amount of time he'd invested in Magneto and his relationship with Xavier and the X-Men. He had some "OK" installments here and there throughout his initial run, but nothing that I would classify as "mediocre."

Golon9977

08-30-2006, 10:39 PM

My favorite X-Men era is the outback team. I did not buy comics back then but I read every issue and I wish there would be an occasional untold outback story told. For me, Chris lost it when he came back. The stories he has been doing are just so boring. I don't know what happend but his writing is 1/2 off from what he produced in the past.

Golon9977

08-30-2006, 10:40 PM

There were hints as far back as New Mutants that Tessa wasn't everything she seemed to be.
Refresh my memory. Not necessarily issue number but the scene.

Beast

08-30-2006, 10:43 PM

Refresh my memory. Not necessarily issue number but the scene.
When Donald Pierce had Tessa and Xavier captive, and the New Mutants rescued them. Xavier and Tessa are rather friendly to each other in the scene. The only problem is the Dark Phoenix Saga, and Tessa already said in X-Treme that she was guilty that she couldn't do anything because it would expose her mole status.

Golon9977

08-30-2006, 11:01 PM

Still drawing a blank. Im going to have to look back into my NM series and read what youre talking about.

But one thing I loved about Claremont's old writing is how he did little things like this.

RichStanz

08-30-2006, 11:04 PM

i recently r-read the "Fall of the mutants" trade, and it seems like its really starting to slip under the pressure.

Its not bad storytelling, per se, but it felt like a lot of the stories were starting to wear thin. there were so many plot threads going on, and it reads like within a year, its all going to fall apart.

surprisingly, i haven't read the outback era in ages, so i can't say if the storytelling gets weaker.

maybe claremont started to hit bumbs once his orginal ideas (dark wolverine/death of prof x/jim jaspers) started to get changed on him.

Omega Alpha

08-30-2006, 11:38 PM

Outback era: :)

Inferno: :) :) :)

The only time he seemed to fall short was after DoFP, when most of the stories weren't really all that exciting, but when the Brood came it was all fine again.

After he came back, pretty much all sucked, though.

Novaya Havoc

08-30-2006, 11:41 PM

foxfire

08-30-2006, 11:43 PM

Refresh my memory. Not necessarily issue number but the scene.
Just small stuff... in one issue she defended Karma when Shaw, Magneto, and Emma were tearing into her for breaking into the Hellfire computer systems.

Beast

08-30-2006, 11:51 PM

Just small stuff... in one issue she defended Karma when Shaw, Magneto, and Emma were tearing into her for breaking into the Hellfire computer systems.
Exactly. And she suggested the truce after the X-Men and Hellfire Club stopped Nimrod together.

The Shadow

08-30-2006, 11:53 PM

I don't think he ever went bad.

ANY writer on a book even 1/3 that long will have some stinkers. Not everything is going to be a Dark Phoenix or God Loves story.

But overall I think his run is legendary. I just think people got sick of the way Claremont told stories because the stories themselves weren't bad at all.

foxfire

08-31-2006, 12:03 AM

Beast

08-31-2006, 12:10 AM

I loved CC's run... one little arc I disliked though was that one with Storm and Wolverine fighting those 3 old superhumans... Crimson Commando and 2 others from about Uncanny #215. It just seemed pretty random...
Heh. I loved that storyline. That's one of the things I miss the most about the old days. The fact that the writer could follow just a couple of the characters for a couple issues, and then come back to the others later. Shame that isn't done anymore, it would allow for more character development of some characters.

Syzygy

08-31-2006, 12:38 AM

When Donald Pierce had Tessa and Xavier captive, and the New Mutants rescued them. Xavier and Tessa are rather friendly to each other in the scene. The only problem is the Dark Phoenix Saga, and Tessa already said in X-Treme that she was guilty that she couldn't do anything because it would expose her mole status.

The narrative blub in the New Mutant Graphic Novel #1 says, "Xavier doesn't trust Tessa, or her masters in the Hellfire Club...." The key words being "doesn't trust" and "masters in the Hellfire Club."

It's a retcon, and an extremely poor one. Somewhere in the archives is a thread going over evey possible permutation of this. It just doesn't work at all if it's examined logically for even five minutes.

Peace,
Syzygy

Syzygy

08-31-2006, 12:45 AM

Exactly. And she suggested the truce after the X-Men and Hellfire Club stopped Nimrod together.

This in no way proves shes a spy, or always has been one. It just means she's willing to logically dispense with unnecessary violence and antagonism. That she's not as bloodthirtsy as Shaw, and computes that Club resources would be wasted--at that time--in a war with the X-Men, in no way implies that she's a plant.

Villains have different levels of aggression, after all.

Peace,
Syzygy