Anyone read the inside of this week's Wizard?

[IamtheRock3]

where you saw insignt to Cap and Iron man battle plans
And the line up of who fighting


Pretty interesting

Surprise how harsh Cap willing to get, use phyclogical War fare. Consider She Hulk not taking an order to kill a weakness...does that mean his guys willing to kill, Or does it mean his guys dont have to hold back as much to avoid killing

Speaking of which DANG is Cap side Insanly outpowered and outnumber. Thor And Sentry was seen on a list and thunderbotls. And Iron man no wuss himself, She Hulk packs a punch. And they have the USA army

Unless they have some serious side switch..the anti side are TOAST


This begs the Question

so if you were Iron man or Cap

What would be your fighting plan

[Simpsonsboy182]

If i made iron mans battle plan, it would involve him jumping off a cliff without his stupid suit. That guy is a major a-hole in the civil war, and i never really read iron man comics, but in amazing spiderman he seemed nice, until cw started.

[Effect]

I wish Wizard was sold in my area, have to drive to far to pick up a copy and just to get that alone the trip isn't worth it.

Anyway if I was making Captain America's plan I'd bite the bullet and gather the forces and attempt to take out that Shield carrier by any means, even if it mean taking some lives. There is only one right? That should bring the odds on either side closer once that is gone. Hydra almost did it recently in New Avengers #23 and I'm pretty sure Cap knows the layout. Drop that out of the sky that that forces Iron Man's forces to rely on their own technology and methods. Not only that but it gives Anti-heros on the ground more room to move around without having Shield always in the sky and dropping their "cape killers" anywhere and everywhere they please.

After that, the next target should be Stark Towers to take out Tony's lab and armor. A run on the Baxter building would be nice but way to risky and with children being there it would be bad, especailly with Sue helping the Anti side. After that focus should just be on keeping SHield out of the picture for a longer amount of time with having Caps team doing more and more supehero work and gaining public opinion and then work on government officials in private to gain their support.

Shield just needs to be taken out of the situation first and fast as does Tony's armors to remove him from the picture as well.

[Markavian]

He needs to get his Message out.I cant for the life of me understand why he isnt using the Media at all. I am Pro Reg ..But still I am at a loss why he doesnt try to get his POV out to the Public and maybe gain more allies..:confused:

[atxbomber]

take out that Shield carrier by any means, even if it mean taking some lives.

At that point, Cap is nothing more then a terrorist. Killing soldiers, with possible civilian deaths on the ground, would absolutely destroy any and all support the "rebel" heroes have, except maybe with radical groups like Hydra and Al Quieda (not exactly the best of bedfellows).

Markavian has the right idea. The Secret Avengers should be fighting crime, going about their "business," and thier message to the public should be something along the lines of: "We're out here trying to make the world a safer place, and the Government wants to throw us in prison. Does that seem right to you?"

[Nomad]

you mean biding their time until they get arrested? iron Man won't take "no" for an answer. What is cap to do? I mean, he has a shield, not a ray gun. doesn't that explain his philosophy?

[Jmacq1]

At that point, Cap is nothing more then a terrorist. Killing soldiers, with possible civilian deaths on the ground, would absolutely destroy any and all support the "rebel" heroes have, except maybe with radical groups like Hydra and Al Quieda (not exactly the best of bedfellows).

Markavian has the right idea. The Secret Avengers should be fighting crime, going about their "business," and thier message to the public should be something along the lines of: "We're out here trying to make the world a safer place, and the Government wants to throw us in prison. Does that seem right to you?"

Ahh, another one trying to claim Cap's turned into a mass-murderer:

Please show me any dead bodies as a result of Captain America's actions. Actual bodies, not a situation that may or may not result in dead bodies. (Please note that the SHIELD agent he kicked out of the truck was wearing full body armor and very clearly landed on his -back-, not his head).

Please show me where SHIELD has blasted it all over the news that Captain America is now a ruthless killer. Because y'know...that'd kind of be a major plot point if it were the case. Since they haven't, it's more than reasonably safe to assume he hasn't killed anyone in his battle for freedom (misguided or not). He's an insurgent and/or a resistance fighter. But he sure as heck isn't a "Terrorist".

Please show me a single instance where Captain America has tried to "use terror to influence a political process." He's only targeted SHIELD agents and their support, and even then only to prevent himself or other heroes from being taken into custody.

And lastly, go and actually read "Civil War". Don't just look at the pretty pictures. Going out there and continuing to fight the bad guys is exactly what Captain America and his group are trying to do. If you actually read the dialogue, you'll find they've taken down plenty of supervillains and handled other dangerous situations "between the panels".

What they have not done at this point is at any time attack any government property or personnel except to prevent others from getting shipped off to the Negative Zone. They have not taken any offensive actions, only defensive. In other words they're trying to do the "normal superhero thing" it's just not getting done "on screen". And they're only interrupting it when they have to detour to prevent themselves or others from getting incarcerated.

Even the battle in issue #3 only came about because Iron Man tricked the Anti-Registration side into assembling at a situation where they thought they were needed to do "normal superhero stuff".

But I guess you fall into that category of people who think "terrorist" equals "Anyone who doesn't agree with me."

[Nomad]

Although, I have to agree with markavian on the PR firm thing... Did cap learn nothing from moonstone and the secret empire? Public opinion can mean everything. I guess he feels he's his own PR rep

[Simpsonsboy182]

I think in amazing spiderman, cap and his friends attacked a bus carrying captured anti regs right? and it delivired a sweet fight between him and spiderman.

[Jmacq1]

Although, I have to agree with markavian on the PR firm thing... Did cap learn nothing from moonstone and the secret empire? Public opinion can mean everything. I guess he feels he's his own PR rep

Given the popularity and level of public trust he enjoyed prior to Civil War, that's not beyond the realm of possibility.

Plus I don't think Cap would like another person speaking for him, nor putting words in his mouth.

[XPac]

Although, I have to agree with markavian on the PR firm thing... Did cap learn nothing from moonstone and the secret empire? Public opinion can mean everything. I guess he feels he's his own PR rep

The thing is that Cap is simply not savy in this regard. He's not wise to the ways of PR and media. During Busieks Avengers run when there was a lot of public pressure against the Avengers Scarlet Witch sat down and had a talk with him about that, if I recall correctly. He simply wasn't adept at handlling that.

The idea was never that Cap is a perfect human being in every regard... he's a man out of time and simply not savy to a million different aspects of modern day life. Had Tony or someone else pointed out prior to Civil War that it might have been helpful to go out there and give a few emotional speeches he probably would have. But aside from his Illuminati buddies, Tony kept this whole thing to himself. He never tried to pro-actively mobilize the superhuman community to fight for their rights... not everyone is a futuriest like he is.

[Magneto Rocks]

Ahh, another one trying to claim Cap's turned into a mass-murderer:

Please show me any dead bodies as a result of Captain America's actions. Actual bodies, not a situation that may or may not result in dead bodies. (Please note that the SHIELD agent he kicked out of the truck was wearing full body armor and very clearly landed on his -back-, not his head).

Firstly, they didn't try and claim that- they said if he tried to take down the Heli-Carrier, he would be. Fact.

Secondly, it doesn't MATTER if Cap didn't kill anyone- what he did should by all rights have killed DOZENS, and the fact that it didn't was pure luck. Cap had no way of knowing his actions would kill no-one, so at the very least it was ATTEMPTED mass murder.

The fact that the man landed on his back is irrelevant. What SUBSEQUENTLY happened was a huge number of police cars skidding to a halt, running him over, flipping on top of each other, etc and thus a mass accident which should have had a body count.

Oh, and people asked when Civil War was going to get around to showing Cap's dark side. Guess the answer is: Pretty damn soon.

[Jmacq1]

Firstly, they didn't try and claim that- they said if he tried to take down the Heli-Carrier, he would be. Fact.

Secondly, it doesn't MATTER if Cap didn't kill anyone- what he did should by all rights have killed DOZENS, and the fact that it didn't was pure luck. Cap had no way of knowing his actions would kill no-one, so at the very least it was ATTEMPTED mass murder.

The fact that the man landed on his back is irrelevant. What SUBSEQUENTLY happened was a huge number of police cars skidding to a halt, running him over, flipping on top of each other, etc and thus a mass accident which should have had a body count.

Oh, and people asked when Civil War was going to get around to showing Cap's dark side. Guess the answer is: Pretty damn soon.

Or, you know...Cap's just that good (enough to know no one would die in the pile-up). Which would be in keeping with the 40 or so years of Marvel History up until this little crossover. You know, that whole long history that everyone (including Mark Millar) seems to have suddenly forgotten?

Not to say Cap isn't darker than he should be. But frankly, I blame the writer more than the character. It's all just another ham-fisted attempt at political commentary by Millar and Marvel. I wouldn't be at all surprised if by the end of of it, the "military industrial complex" (As eloquently portrayed by the partnership of SHIELD and Iron Man) ends up killing the "embodiment of American Ideals/Spirit" (As played by Captain America). Thus the whole thing becomes Millar's cautionary tale against the evils of the despotic Bush regime. (And sadly, I'm only half-sarcastic with that paragraph).

[TheCrow13]

Step 1: Call in Loki
Step 2: Pick a battlefeild so that the army will have easy ways to get there
Step 3: when The army and iron man arrive, use and EMP
step 4: let loki rain down hell

[TheCrow13]

The problem with my plan is they seem like they dont wanna kill eachother. If your gunna be cut throat you can win, if not you be Screwed

[Magneto Rocks]

Or, you know...Cap's just that good (enough to know no one would die in the pile-up). Which would be in keeping with the 40 or so years of Marvel History up until this little crossover. You know, that whole long history that everyone (including Mark Millar) seems to have suddenly forgotten?

Yes, because we all know that being an INCREDIBLE hand to hand fighter and a superb strategist and a brilliantly capable hero means that you are exactly capable of judging for 100% certain fact that when you throw a man at a certain ANGLE from a truck, the resulting pile-up will kill absoloutely no-one.

Funnily enough, it's actually more ridiculous than it SOUNDS. And it sounds pretty bad.

[bulbasteve]

Or, you know...Cap's just that good (enough to know no one would die in the pile-up). Which would be in keeping with the 40 or so years of Marvel History up until this little crossover. You know, that whole long history that everyone (including Mark Millar) seems to have suddenly forgotten?

Not to say Cap isn't darker than he should be. But frankly, I blame the writer more than the character. It's all just another ham-fisted attempt at political commentary by Millar and Marvel. I wouldn't be at all surprised if by the end of of it, the "military industrial complex" (As eloquently portrayed by the partnership of SHIELD and Iron Man) ends up killing the "embodiment of American Ideals/Spirit" (As played by Captain America). Thus the whole thing becomes Millar's cautionary tale against the evils of the despotic Bush regime. (And sadly, I'm only half-sarcastic with that paragraph).

Actually in hearing Millar's recent interview with fanboy radio he seemed pretty pro-reg. That sort of thing would happen in frontline, you gotta give Millar some credit.

And no Cap can't be just that good. Even if the guy was wearing body armor, at that speed his head would snap back and get crushed like a grapefruit, not to mention a pileup for police vehicals. The whole event is about comics coming closer to the real world, why should Cap be exempt from realism?

[XPac]

Actually in hearing Millar's recent interview with fanboy radio he seemed pretty pro-reg. That sort of thing would happen in frontline, you gotta give Millar some credit.

And no Cap can't be just that good. Even if the guy was wearing body armor, at that speed his head would snap back and get crushed like a grapefruit, not to mention a pileup for police vehicals. The whole event is about comics coming closer to the real world, why should Cap be exempt from realism?

In the real world people have fallen out of airplanes and survived. Miracles happen in the real world, and in comicbooks they happen every other Tuesday.

It's a freaking miracle Metrolis isn't levels everytime Superman decides to fly through it as near lightspeeds because of the sonic boom he generates. But writers don't necessarily think about that sort of think. It really can be as simplistic and the writer wanting Cap to throw the guy out of the van, without intending to convey the idea that Cap is committing murder.

Again, if he was then they would say so. If Cap murdered someone it'd be on the front page of the daily bugle the next day.

[XPac]

Yes, because we all know that being an INCREDIBLE hand to hand fighter and a superb strategist and a brilliantly capable hero means that you are exactly capable of judging for 100% certain fact that when you throw a man at a certain ANGLE from a truck, the resulting pile-up will kill absoloutely no-one.

Funnily enough, it's actually more ridiculous than it SOUNDS. And it sounds pretty bad.

And yet it still sounds less ridiculous than Millar deciding to make Cap a blatent murder in that fashion.

If I must suspend my belief one way or the other, it's simply much easier to assume that Cap figured out how to toss the guy out safely than it is for me to assume that Cap decided to become a murderer.

[Magneto Rocks]

I don't understand why it's tough to believe Cap simply thought things had come so far that he had to get rid of the man. My guess- he wasn't thinking straight about the guy, just getting rid of him. He's losing his focus because of all this Civil War stuff and growing more hardline by the day.

Option 2: Reed Richards has done a swap and now we have Ultimate Cap.

[Jmacq1]

Yes, because we all know that being an INCREDIBLE hand to hand fighter and a superb strategist and a brilliantly capable hero means that you are exactly capable of judging for 100% certain fact that when you throw a man at a certain ANGLE from a truck, the resulting pile-up will kill absoloutely no-one.

Funnily enough, it's actually more ridiculous than it SOUNDS. And it sounds pretty bad.

About as ridiculous as a Holocaust survivor being regressed to the age of a baby, re-aged to his physical prime, and manipulating the EM-spectrum on a global scale on a daily basis?

Or a group of geniuses that can invent freaking time machines running around, yet people are still dying from cancer, world hunger, etc...? Boy, these guys are some heroes....or are they just selfish jerks hoarding all the good stuff for themselves?

If you're going to start arguing "realism" in comics, then you're kinda undermining the whole premise that exists to begin with. We can accept that Magneto exists but not that someone might be skilled and experienced enough to do something like what was described with Captain America? We can accept that Reed Richards is smart enough to build a time machine or breach the barrier between dimensions, or Tony Stark brilliant enough to create the Iron Man armor (much less that the armor is barely more than man-sized but more powerful than your average tactical nuclear weapon), but Captain America can't be skilled/accurate/whatever enough to keep people from getting killed?

Sorry, it doesn't hold up.

I don't see any difference really. All are completely improbable and "unrealistic" premises. Both happen almost every issue in Marvel Comics.

[XPac]

I don't understand why it's tough to believe Cap simply thought things had come so far that he had to get rid of the man. My guess- he wasn't thinking straight about the guy, just getting rid of him. He's losing his focus because of all this Civil War stuff and growing more hardline by the day.

Option 2: Reed Richards has done a swap and now we have Ultimate Cap.

I wouldn't have a tough time believing that if they said he killed a man afterwards.

I have a pretty tough time imaging Cap commiting murder without anyone bothering to mention it though. So I'm assuming that's not the case. If it were, Tony and Hill would be mentioning that fact every 5 seconds when there's ANY doubt whatsoever that Cap isn't in the wrong here.

Cap murdering someone isn't consistant with the character, nor is the fact that him murdering someone isn't worth mentioning consistant with the world he's presently living. It's simply easier all around to assume the writer tweaked physics and probably and assumed the guy survived... something writers do fairly often in comics anyways.

[Red Lotus]

Ahh, another one trying to claim Cap's turned into a mass-murderer:

Please show me any dead bodies as a result of Captain America's actions. Actual bodies, not a situation that may or may not result in dead bodies. (Please note that the SHIELD agent he kicked out of the truck was wearing full body armor and very clearly landed on his -back-, not his head).

Please show me where SHIELD has blasted it all over the news that Captain America is now a ruthless killer. Because y'know...that'd kind of be a major plot point if it were the case. Since they haven't, it's more than reasonably safe to assume he hasn't killed anyone in his battle for freedom (misguided or not). He's an insurgent and/or a resistance fighter. But he sure as heck isn't a "Terrorist".

Please show me a single instance where Captain America has tried to "use terror to influence a political process." He's only targeted SHIELD agents and their support, and even then only to prevent himself or other heroes from being taken into custody.

And lastly, go and actually read "Civil War". Don't just look at the pretty pictures. Going out there and continuing to fight the bad guys is exactly what Captain America and his group are trying to do. If you actually read the dialogue, you'll find they've taken down plenty of supervillains and handled other dangerous situations "between the panels".

What they have not done at this point is at any time attack any government property or personnel except to prevent others from getting shipped off to the Negative Zone. They have not taken any offensive actions, only defensive. In other words they're trying to do the "normal superhero thing" it's just not getting done "on screen". And they're only interrupting it when they have to detour to prevent themselves or others from getting incarcerated.

Even the battle in issue #3 only came about because Iron Man tricked the Anti-Registration side into assembling at a situation where they thought they were needed to do "normal superhero stuff".

But I guess you fall into that category of people who think "terrorist" equals "Anyone who doesn't agree with me."


Did I miss something cause I dont think he was trying to do that. Didn't this start when some one said that Cap should

take out that Shield carrier by any means, even if it mean taking some lives. .


Which if Cap did that he would become a terrorist. And this would become an offensive actions. If that were to happen Cap might as well storm the White House and overthrow the Government.

I would like for Cap to turn his self in, in a very public manner and say that he is willing to go to jail for what he thinks is right.

[Jmacq1]

Did I miss something cause I dont think he was trying to do that. Didn't this start when some one said that Cap .

No, the source of my little rebuttal was primarily a couple of people that vehemently insist that one or more people just -must- have died during Captain America's breakout of the Young Avengers in Civil War #2....despite the lack of -any- supporting evidence from any other in-universe sources.

You're correct, if Cap stormed the Heli-Carrier, killed a bunch of SHIELD agents and then crashed into even a lightly populated area (as opposed to a completely -non- populated area), I'd be much closer to labelling him a "terrorist".

Personally, I'm hoping neither Cap nor Iron Man cross the killing line in this crossover. Because it makes hypocrites out of them, and anyone that supports them (IE how can you justify killing other -heroes- but you'll try to bring the mass-murderers in alive?)

And while it probably would have been more in-character for Cap to publicly turn himself in (then again there's no guarantee that SHIELD or the government would give him -any- chance to make his case "public". More likely he'd get to go to "secret court" and be quitely convicted and sent to the Negative Zone with little fuss or muss. The public can rail about it all they want, and get the "that's classified information" answer from now until eternity)...it also would have prevented the whole "Civil War" storyline from occurring. So it's a moot point. Cap and Tony have to act at least mildly out of character/ignore past history just for the sake of the story. Which is what annoys me more than anything else. Truly good writers and editors could have found a way to make the story work without butchering the portrayals of its' main protagonists.

[XPac]

Boston Tea Party was technically an act of terrorism.

What Cap is doing is obiviously illegal, and can easily be classified as a terrorist act. But history will ultimately be the judge of whether or not Caps means will justify the ends. There is no doubt that there is a moral slippery slope involved in ALL sides.

[Jmacq1]

Boston Tea Party was technically an act of terrorism.

What Cap is doing is obiviously illegal, and can easily be classified as a terrorist act. But history will ultimately be the judge of whether or not Caps means will justify the ends. There is no doubt that there is a moral slippery slope involved in ALL sides.

I think that's part of the whole storyline: Neither side is completely "right" or completely "wrong". No matter how vehemently some of us might argue otherwise.

Unfortunately the "middle ground" just can't be reached because of the nature of the story.

[Magneto Rocks]

I have said MULTIPLE times that I accept that it is highly unlikely, based on what we saw afterwards, that anyone died in said event, even though by all rights they should have. However, it does not excuse Cap from ATTEMPTED murder, as he had no way of knowing that people would not die and showed absoloutely no guilt afterwards, or indeed, any concern for the people involved i nthe accident he caused.

[XPac]

I think that's part of the whole storyline: Neither side is completely "right" or completely "wrong". No matter how vehemently some of us might argue otherwise.

Unfortunately the "middle ground" just can't be reached because of the nature of the story.

History is a history of wars, written by the winners.

Course that being said, given Cap is a major character in Marvel with his own book, I'd be suprised if the end resut was him being deamed a terrorist in the wrong. It just seems a lot easier all around to have the end result be SHIELD being in the wrong. But since I'm an ANTI registration guy I suppose that could just be my own personal bias. We'll see.

[Jmacq1]

I have said MULTIPLE times that I accept that it is highly unlikely, based on what we saw afterwards, that anyone died in said event, even though by all rights they should have. However, it does not excuse Cap from ATTEMPTED murder, as he had no way of knowing that people would not die and showed absoloutely no guilt afterwards, or indeed, any concern for the people involved i nthe accident he caused.

Funny, if I were convinced that that bunch of people were intent on unjustly imprisoning a bunch of innocent kids simply for being "different", and had been around to see what some societies do to people that are "different" (IE the Nazis, or even the Japanese Internment Camps of WW II), I probably wouldn't be too concerned about what happened to them, either. Remember, for us the Holocaust and the build-up to it (along with the rise of Fascism and National Socialism in Europe) is something we read about in history books. For Cap it was something he lived through and saw with his own eyes, only ten years ago or so (to him). In his own way, he's being a "futurist". Or more accurately a "history repeatist". It's just that his "vision" doesn't have the same "endpoint" that Tony's does. (IE Tony envisions some kind of superhero utopia if they can manage to control and shape the SHRA. Steve envisions a police state run by SHIELD.)

Not saying Cap was completely right or wrong in the situation, but I can understand where the mentality is coming from.

[bulbasteve]

I wouldn't have a tough time believing that if they said he killed a man afterwards.

I have a pretty tough time imaging Cap commiting murder without anyone bothering to mention it though. So I'm assuming that's not the case. If it were, Tony and Hill would be mentioning that fact every 5 seconds when there's ANY doubt whatsoever that Cap isn't in the wrong here.

Cap murdering someone isn't consistant with the character, nor is the fact that him murdering someone isn't worth mentioning consistant with the world he's presently living. It's simply easier all around to assume the writer tweaked physics and probably and assumed the guy survived... something writers do fairly often in comics anyways.

So, Hulk has probably killed people all the time and it's rarely mentioned, heck in the illuminate special they didn't even use the word "kill". So there is a little self censorship because some fanboys don't want their beloved heroes to be anything less than saints. But you really should be able to read between the lines, even in a comic book.

I don't know how anyone can argue that the whole event isn't about making the MU more realistic. Hulk has finally been dealt with for killing people, there is 900 killed because the New Warriors weren't prepared. So what is the reason WHY Captain America is exempt for this sort of realism?

[XPac]

So, Hulk has probably killed people all the time and it's rarely mentioned, heck in the illuminate special they didn't even use the word "kill". So there is a little self censorship because some fanboys don't want their beloved heroes to be anything less than saints. But you really should be able to read between the lines, even in a comic book.

I don't know how anyone can argue that the whole event isn't about making the MU more realistic. Hulk has finally been dealt with for killing people, there is 900 killed because the New Warriors weren't prepared. So what is the reason WHY Captain America is exempt for this sort of realism?

Well, label me a fanboy all you want but I think my stance is fair... if they outright say he murdered those people, I'll accept he did.

But nowhere did they say he did even in a setting where they realistically WOULD, so given that plus the doubts they have that Millar would want to potray Cap as a murderer, I'm assuming that's not the case. If you think that's mere fanboy logic on my part, I guess I'll have to somehow find a way to live with that fact.

[Jmacq1]

So, Hulk has probably killed people all the time and it's rarely mentioned, heck in the illuminate special they didn't even use the word "kill". So there is a little self censorship because some fanboys don't want their beloved heroes to be anything less than saints. But you really should be able to read between the lines, even in a comic book.

I don't know how anyone can argue that the whole event isn't about making the MU more realistic. Hulk has finally been dealt with for killing people, there is 900 killed because the New Warriors weren't prepared. So what is the reason WHY Captain America is exempt for this sort of realism?

Yeah, a very simple one:

Once Captain America starts casually killing people as opposed to killing only "bad guys" as a relative last resort, he's not a superhero anymore. He's just a killer in a costume.

Kinda ruins the whole credibility of a character that's supposed to be the moral "rock" of the Marvel Universe. I suppose you think Spider-Man should start regularly snapping necks and shattering the skulls of the street thugs he all-too-often encounters, too, right?

Maybe -you- like reading about "slightly less evil" killers in brightly colored costumes killing "more evil" killers in brightly colored costumes. But that's not why I read comics. And as I've stated elsewhere, if that's the road Marvel wants to take, they can count themselves short at least one reader...though I imagine I wouldn't be the only one.

Funny how in your mind only "fanboys" want their heroes to be moral, generally upstanding people, though.

[bulbasteve]

Well, label me a fanboy all you want but I think my stance is fair... if they outright say he murdered those people, I'll accept he did.

But nowhere did they say he did even in a setting where they realistically WOULD, so given that plus the doubts they have that Millar would want to potray Cap as a murderer, I'm assuming that's not the case. If you think that's mere fanboy logic on my part, I guess I'll have to somehow find a way to live with that fact.

Why do they have to outright say things for you to believe it? I'm sure subtext actually exists in mainstream comic books. This isn't some dumb "oh we didn't see him actually die so he can come back" thing, accidental death was the whole basis for the story!

Anyway Millars own Ultimate Cap kills people all the time, so I don't know why you think he wouldn't portray him that way.

Yeah, a very simple one:

Once Captain America starts casually killing people as opposed to killing only "bad guys" as a relative last resort, he's not a superhero anymore. He's just a killer in a costume.

Kinda ruins the whole credibility of a character that's supposed to be the moral "rock" of the Marvel Universe. I suppose you think Spider-Man should start regularly snapping necks and shattering the skulls of the street thugs he all-too-often encounters, too, right?

Maybe -you- like reading about "slightly less evil" killers in brightly colored costumes killing "more evil" killers in brightly colored costumes. But that's not why I read comics. And as I've stated elsewhere, if that's the road Marvel wants to take, they can count themselves short at least one reader...though I imagine I wouldn't be the only one.

Funny how in your mind only "fanboys" want their heroes to be moral, generally upstanding people, though.

So what, Police Officers aren't heroes because they sometimes accidentally or have to kill people? Or Soldiers who's whole job is to kill people (but of course not SUPER soldiers..yeesh)?

Funny you should mention Spider-Man who DID accidentally snap his girlfriends neck trying to save her. Noone is saying he isn't moral just because he made a stupid mistake, same goes for Cap.

[Jmacq1]

Why do they have to outright say things for you to believe it? I'm sure subtext actually exists in mainstream comic books. This isn't some dumb "oh we didn't see him actually die so he can come back" thing, accidental death was the whole basis for the story!

Anyway Millars own Ultimate Cap kills people all the time, so I don't know why you think he wouldn't portray him that way.

Accidental death caused by untrained and/or irresponsible heroes. -Not- by seasoned veterans and competent professionals like Captain America or even Iron Man (though I suppose you think Iron Man's killed hundreds of his own employees over the years, given how many fights he's had on Stark International property).

It doesn't surprise me he's portraying 616 Cap like Ultimate Cap. It annoys the hell out of me, though. Because 616 Cap is -not- Ultimate Cap. Sure, I agree that Cap killed in WW II, and wouldn't be completely adverse to it in the present day (albeit significantly so, as many war veterans are) but he was killing enemy combatants during wartime. I know that's the argument you'll try to bring up here, but this -is- a different situation. Because this isn't war that's as morally clear-cut as that one was, and ultimately that SHIELD agent (whether I agree with Registration or not) was just doing his job.

So yes, in this case they -do- need to explicitly spell it out. Because it's a major plot point and characterization change for Captain America if he -did- in fact cause that man's death in so casual a manner. It's not the kind of thing you just "assume" people will assume. Because the assumption for the last 40 or so years has been that 99 percent of the time the people -aren't- dying in those kinds of scenes. In fact many times in the past Marvel has made a point of noting that -no one- dies in such scenes.

So what, Police Officers aren't heroes because they sometimes accidentally or have to kill people? Or Soldiers who's whole job is to kill people (but of course not SUPER soldiers..yeesh)?

Funny you should mention Spider-Man who DID accidentally snap his girlfriends neck trying to save her. Noone is saying he isn't moral just because he made a stupid mistake, same goes for Cap.

Funny, the Gwen Stacy thing is still debated to this day. Marvel (or at least anyone still working for Marvel at the time) has never said either way. And even in that case, it's a completely different scenario, as Spider-Man didn't toss her off that bridge in the first place.

Secondly, in this case, Cap wouldn't be killing a criminal or a villain (you could make an argument for "enemy combatant" but even so). It was a SHIELD agent. And killing them even in the course of a story like this irreparably damages Captain America's status as any kind of "hero", unless that agent had definitely been proven to be corrupt or "evil" before that.

Maybe it doesn't for you, who apparently enjoy a fictional world where the heroes kill almost as many people as the bad guys (Might I suggest "The Authority"?), but I'm not quite that morally relativistic.

PS: If you think a modern soldier's "whole job" is to kill people, I suggest you go join the military. As a veteran myself, as well as a family member of a great many more, I take a great deal of offense to that statement, whether it was made in ignorance or not.

[Gregg Helmberger]

Funny, if I were convinced that that bunch of people were intent on unjustly imprisoning a bunch of innocent kids simply for being "different", and had been around to see what some societies do to people that are "different" (IE the Nazis, or even the Japanese Internment Camps of WW II), I probably wouldn't be too concerned about what happened to them, either. Remember, for us the Holocaust and the build-up to it (along with the rise of Fascism and National Socialism in Europe) is something we read about in history books. For Cap it was something he lived through and saw with his own eyes, only ten years ago or so (to him). In his own way, he's being a "futurist". Or more accurately a "history repeatist". It's just that his "vision" doesn't have the same "endpoint" that Tony's does. (IE Tony envisions some kind of superhero utopia if they can manage to control and shape the SHRA. Steve envisions a police state run by SHIELD.)

Not saying Cap was completely right or wrong in the situation, but I can understand where the mentality is coming from.

I've been saying this from the beginning, though not as eloquently as you just did. Captain America has seen the results of depriving one group of civil rights for the convenience and/or mollification of others, and he knows it isn't pretty.

[XPac]

Why do they have to outright say things for you to believe it? I'm sure subtext actually exists in mainstream comic books. This isn't some dumb "oh we didn't see him actually die so he can come back" thing, accidental death was the whole basis for the story!



Do you find it believable that neither Tony nor SHIELD or the media in any way would decide that Cap murdering someone wasn't worth mentioning? I don't.

Do you believe that it's in character for Cap to murder someone in this particular situation? Again, I don't.

At this point, I have more reason to believe that no one died. If the comic gives me reason to believe otherwise, then I will. I do accept the existance of subtext, but in the same breath I don't consider every character that places someone in a dangerous situation a murderer.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the matter. But there is Tom's thread to ask questions about this sort of thing. If you're convinced Marvel has decided to make Cap a murderer, it's something you're free to confirm with him. I could be be wrong afterall... it's POSSIBLE marvel decided this without bothering to mention it. I just find it unlikely.

[IamtheRock3]

I have said MULTIPLE times that I accept that it is highly unlikely, based on what we saw afterwards, that anyone died in said event, even though by all rights they should have. However, it does not excuse Cap from ATTEMPTED murder, as he had no way of knowing that people would not die and showed absoloutely no guilt afterwards, or indeed, any concern for the people involved i nthe accident he caused.


Wow this gotten off topic

but just to Answer..Is Iron man an attempted murder when he punch Cap in the gut and went through several building, it something that should snapped his spine in two


Is Shield attempted murders when they shot at the black kid when he could of easily fail off, Those arent rubber bullets..if they are there rubber bullet that Can tear through walls and buiding

In fact Are heroes Attempted murder when the ROUTINLY tossed people through buildings


Or batman when he Shoots a 60 mile per hour batarang at some dudes head, Or hawkeye as he shoot at people with arrows


Not to mention Cap tends to fight like this. Also can do CRAZY thing with his shield using Calculation, even though he basicly a circler blade, let he doesnt kill anyone


Now for the battle

Cap AMMAZINLY outpower and number so his best coveret attack, Attack the Cap killer base and desotroying the weapons, using guilt agains some of the Pro heroes and phycological warfare, makes a lot of attack from afar sorrounde
d

Iron man- hit them hard hit them fast, sorrounded them and just pour on the power, they may have enough of them. May not even bring thunderbolts, they to much of wildcards

[IamtheRock3]

So, Hulk has probably killed people all the time and it's rarely mentioned, heck in the illuminate special they didn't even use the word "kill". So there is a little self censorship because some fanboys don't want their beloved heroes to be anything less than saints. But you really should be able to read between the lines, even in a comic book.

I don't know how anyone can argue that the whole event isn't about making the MU more realistic. Hulk has finally been dealt with for killing people, there is 900 killed because the New Warriors weren't prepared. So what is the reason WHY Captain America is exempt for this sort of realism?


because the other ones they MENTION the Deaths..and the Hulk stuff is Reconnes. The only death confirm is Las Vegas

not to mention..most of the PRO heroes pretty much fighting the same as they did before the Law pass

As in

Befor Reg-

Hit villans upside the head with a mailbox, watch his butt fly into a building


AFTER REG

hit villans upside the head with a malibox, wathc thier butt fly into the buidling


I could UNDESTAND if they faught differnt. Like if I pro side were walking on eggs shell during fight concern about property damage. But they werent when fighting each other. That Why Thing called them BOTH on it when they almost hurt someone

So If they all basicly fighting the same way they always do..the laws seem retarted

[TheDrizzt]

Sure, I agree that Cap killed in WW II, and wouldn't be completely adverse to it in the present day (albeit significantly so, as many war veterans are) but he was killing enemy combatants during wartime.
I believe both Gruenwald and Brubaker have said he didn't. Though in Brubaker's case, it may be a bit ambiguous (something like Bucky handling all the cold blooded kills or something).

Darned if I know how that makes sense, though.

[jackolover]

where you saw insignt to Cap and Iron man battle plans
And the line up of who fighting


Pretty interesting

Surprise how harsh Cap willing to get, use phyclogical War fare. Consider She Hulk not taking an order to kill a weakness...does that mean his guys willing to kill, Or does it mean his guys dont have to hold back as much to avoid killing

Speaking of which DANG is Cap side Insanly outpowered and outnumber. Thor And Sentry was seen on a list and thunderbotls. And Iron man no wuss himself, She Hulk packs a punch. And they have the USA army

Unless they have some serious side switch..the anti side are TOAST


This begs the Question

so if you were Iron man or Cap

What would be your fighting plan


I think the best advice to Cap is to work like Fury. Nobody ever came after Fury (except the first story line where Hydra tried to assasinate him). But get some LMD's of the Secret Avengers and run some interference. Make it a guerilla war, where Cap knew that the enemy was going to apprehend some of his people. Forget the good fight, that just leads to capture. Fury knows how to operate in a world full of capes, far superior in power than him. Fury is the man. Give him some strong capes, and there is nothing Fury can't do. Hell, get Punisher. Even better. You can have 2 fronts. One running intereference, and the other sabotaging attempts to capture your men. Punisher is like a rat. You can shoot at him all you like he just scuttles away. Cap is too high profile. He needs to fight dirty.

I would love to see pictures of DD in a trench coat, stuck up against an alley wall looking around a corner.

Hell, why not even conscript Dr Strange and get the eye of Aggamotto on surveillance. Then some of those magical objects he's always got in store and cast the Wand of Watoob about the place. Strange could also give then a cloak of invisibility on missions. That would be cool, when Sheild and pro-side rolls up and fwoosh - no more renegades. Or Strange could just teleport IM to Dormamu's dimension . It could throw the whole balance of the war into confusion and IM would have to conceed and call a truce. Then they would negotiate terms and the SHRA. It may make the rego defunct.

Besides, it's way past time the X-Men got into the fight, on Caps side. That would make it much more evenly matched, if push comes to shove.