x-previews @ pcs -- uxm #478, phoenix warsong #1, etc

[chanzero]

pcs previews updated with five new pages (dialogued) of phoenix: warsong #1 uncanny x-men #478 and more:
http://popcultureshock.com/previews/

[Madrox84]

Uncanny looks cool, and i'm looking forward to getting a copy.

Warsong on the other hand looks a bit lame, i dunno if i'm gonna bother getting it.

[Arrjay]

I'll be picking both of these up.

[Beast]

Uncanny looks cool, and i'm looking forward to getting a copy.

Warsong on the other hand looks a bit lame, i dunno if i'm gonna bother getting it.
Agreed. Though I'll probably get Warsong anyway. :)

[Madrox84]

Agreed. Though I'll probably get Warsong anyway. :)

I'll only get it if i have money to spare... Which is unlikely.

[Beast]

*Finishes reading the Uncanny preview*

Ok, when the hell did the Shi'ar kill Jean the first time? For one, it wasn't even really Jean. And for two, she committed suicide on the moon. Jesus Christ on a cracker. :rolleyes:

[Joe Zool]

Amazing. In just one panel, Brubaker gives Polaris back her humanity.

[Joe Zool]

*Finishes reading the Uncanny preview*

Ok, when the hell did the Shi'ar kill Phoenix the first time? For one, it wasn't even really Jean. And for two, she committed suicide on the moon. Jesus Christ on a cracker. :rolleyes:


Yeah, it's their own spin on things.

[Beast]

Yeah, it's their own spin on things.
It's not their own spin on things. It's a sloppy continuity error.

[Madrox84]

*Finishes reading the Uncanny preview*

Ok, when the hell did the Shi'ar kill Jean the first time? For one, it wasn't even really Jean. And for two, she committed suicide on the moon. Jesus Christ on a cracker. :rolleyes:

Hmmmmmm... I just read that as the opinion of two characters who weren't present for said event, getting mixed up about what really happened.

[Cayman]

Must....buy....both! *gasps*

Cay

[TinMan]

Uncanny looks kickass, I really liked that little exchange between Havok and Polaris about Jean, Scott and Xavier; great to see acknowledgement of past history and changes in characters.

Warsong looks interesting to me, I'll be reading it to find out what angle they're going to approach it with.

[Beast]

Hmmmmmm... I just read that as the opinion of two characters who weren't present for said event, getting mixed up about what really happened.
I really doubt that Havok and Polaris don't know the events that caused Jean to die. Or the explaination behind her return. It's just pretty damn sloppy. Of course after Krakoa, I have no faith in continuity being respected.

[Madrox84]

I really doubt that Havok and Polaris don't know the events that caused Jean to die. Or the explaination behind her return. It's just pretty damn sloppy. Of course after Krakoa, I have no faith in continuity being respected.

I know. But i'm so used to continuity gaffs, that i don't let them bother me anymore. If i did i'd probably go mad.

[Beast]

I know. But i'm so used to continuity gaffs, that i don't let them bother me anymore. If i did i'd probably go mad.
I don't mind the small ones, but the Dark Phoenix saga was a massive event in the lives of the X-Men. For Havok to somehow get the facts of the event wrong, it just annoys me a lot. Not to mention I like Brubaker's run so far, but stuff like this is going to end up spiraling out of control.

[Madrox84]

I don't mind the small ones, but the Dark Phoenix saga was a massive event in the lives of the X-Men. For Havok to somehow get the facts of the event wrong, it just annoys me.

It used to annoy me to. But recently i just think of some vaguely reasonable/plausible excuse and ignore the gaff.

[kate-pryde]

I don't mind the small ones, but the Dark Phoenix saga was a massive event in the lives of the X-Men. For Havok to somehow get the facts of the event wrong, it just annoys me a lot. Not to mention I like Brubaker's run so far, but stuff like this is going to end up spiraling out of control.

I like the character interaction in Uncanny.

But the continuity issues are getting out of hand.

All of these pages seem to be trying to get new readers up to speed on what’s happened before with Jean, Phoenix, Lillandra and Xavier, and I’m concerned that the continuity is being re-written to over-simply things and to fit the current story.

It seems like the Cliff Notes version of X-continuity from the Alex & Lorna scene is that Jean was Phoenix and the Shi’ar killed her. It’s not entirely wrong, but it’s not right and I worry about how long this kind of kind of pick & choose, quasi-continuity is going to last.

I get that explaining what exactly happened might be harder and saying the Shi’ar killed Jean is far more compeling to the current storyline and gets the point across to new readers, but I’m worried about how far that approach to continuity is going to go.

I’m guessing that next couple pages will have the Shi’ar discussing Rachel being in Shi’ar space, and the previous conversation between Lorna and Alex provides the necessary backstory: Jean was Phoenix, the Shi’ar killed her, Rachel is Jean’s daughter, she’s inherited the ability to become the Phoenix, thus she must die. And ignoring any other continuity that makes everything Phoenix related so complicated. But I'm tired of writers bending over backwards to re-write canon just to make the stories make sense to people who aren't currently reading.

[Michael Sean]

*Finishes reading the Uncanny preview*

Ok, when the hell did the Shi'ar kill Jean the first time? For one, it wasn't even really Jean. And for two, she committed suicide on the moon. Jesus Christ on a cracker. :rolleyes:

Yeah the Shiar didn't kill Jean because she killed herself but they were involved in that story. And they were involved in her latest return to the White Hot Room in Endsong #5.

And it was the real Jean who died on the moon. The original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix character was the real Jean. The Classic X-Men backstories, Morrison's New X-Men, and Pak's Phoenix Endsong says it was the real Jean.

They went back to the original idea of the original story.

The retcon idea that Jean was replaced by the force isn't valid anymore. I don't know why some fans still cling to it. All the recent Phoenixs stories (New X-Men, Endsong) as well as all the latest references to the Phoenix Saga (Astonishing, End of Greys, Uncanny etc) says it was Jean!

The previews to Uncanny and Warsong look good. The Phoenix in Warsong is a fragment of Jean Grey just like in Endsong. Its just not time for Jean to hatch yet but she will return, she says soon in the preview. I hope Warsong does good so maybe they will have a third Phoenix mini series that will actually be about a whole Jean Grey/Phoenix returning.

[Beast]

Yeah the Shiar didn't kill Jean because she killed herself but they were involved in that story. And they were involved in her latest return to the White Hot Room in Endsong #5.

And it was the real Jean who died on the moon. The original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix character was the real Jean. The Classic X-Men backstories, Morrison's New X-Men, and Pak's Phoenix Endsong says it was the real Jean.

They went back to the original idea of the original story.

The retcon idea that Jean was replaced by the force isn't valid anymore. I don't know why some fans still cling to it. All the recent Phoenixs stories (New X-Men, Endsong) as well as all the latest references to the Phoenix Saga (Astonishing, End of Greys, Uncanny etc) says it was Jean!

The previews to Uncanny and Warsong look good. The Phoenix in Warsong is a fragment of Jean Grey just like in Endsong. Its just not time for Jean to hatch yet but she will return, she says soon in the preview. I hope Warsong does good so maybe they will have a third Phoenix mini series that will actually be about a whole Jean Grey/Phoenix returning.
Yes, I don't need the history lesson. I know what happened, I have the issues. And it still wasn't the real Jean. The Phoenix Force put the real Jean into a cocoon and created a duplicate of her body. It also contained a piece of Jean's soul/essence/what have you. While it was Jean, it always wasn't Jean. The retcon is still valid, and all those recent Phoenix stories have kept the retcon but also filled in some of the gaps and explained that since Jean is Phoenix and the Phoenix is Jean, that it was still on some level... her.

[jen]

I am looking forward to Uncanny. I really enjoyed the first two issues. I like the opening sequence of the previews a lot! My only gripe is that only in the X-Men do they whine about how powers are used. You never see Han Solo turning to Luke and saying, "Do you think that Obi-Wan uses those mind tricks on us? That is unethical!" ;) It's like get over it! Lets use what we got and make it work people! :D (That's my Tim Gunn reference for the day!)

[rilokyle]

YAY!!!!

I'm so psyched to get both Uncanny and Warsong. Billy Tan's art gets better with each issue. I especially loved that Alex/Lorna page, even if the Phoenix stuff is getting everyone riled up. I loved Lorna's speech about how she misses Jean, and how Scott hasn't been the same since she died. I'm glad Bru remembers that Jean and Lorna's friendship goes way back to the 60s- a very touching scene. The only thing to make this issue even better, is to end it with Lorna and Alex getting their mack on. Then life would be perfect. :D

And I'm liking Warsong so far. Now that some of the pages have dialogue, I'm interested to see where this goes. I feel like the Cuckoos are still such a mystery, and I'm glad someone is getting around to tell their story. And the art is fantastic- so pretty!

[Michael Sean]

Yes, I don't need the history lesson. I know what happened, I have the issues. And it still wasn't the real Jean. The Phoenix Force put the real Jean into a cocoon and created a duplicate of her body. It also contained a piece of Jean's soul/essence/what have you. While it was Jean, it always wasn't Jean. The retcon is still valid, and all those recent Phoenix stories have kept the retcon but also filled in some of the gaps and explained that since Jean is Phoenix and the Phoenix is Jean, that it was still on some level... her.

Since Jean is Phoenix and Phoenix is Jean then it was her more than just on some level.... It Was Her! In the classic backstory they said all of Jean was tranferred to the new body except a spark that was left in the cocoon body just in case things went wrong.

It was still the real Jean. She was just in a new body just like she was in a new body when she hatched from her Phoenix Egg in HCT and will probably be in a new body when she hatches to return in current continuity.

Also the Phoenix fragments that were in Endsong and the one that is in Warsong are still the real Jean too.

Like I've said Jean was referenced as the original Phoenix throughout New X-Men and was also referenced as the original Phoenix in Astonishing X-Men and even in Claremont's End of Greys story. So its not just Brubaker doing it now in the current Uncanny X-Men. So I don't see why that would be a problem for anyone.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

WOw...uncanny really does look friggin amazing. After last issue we really need this issue, cuz wow.

[Accroître]

I'm still so confussed.... I thought the phoenix could only be hosted by Omega level mutants. Emma in the first mini couldn't contain it because she wasn't powerful enough, but we see in the preview she is hosting it again. Am I totally off here or are they re-coning again....

[Michael Sean]

I'm still so confussed.... I thought the phoenix could only be hosted by Omega level mutants. Emma in the first mini couldn't contain it because she wasn't powerful enough, but we see in the preview she is hosting it again. Am I totally off here or are they re-coning again....

Anything can be a shell for these Jean/Phoenix fragments but they have no control and will eventually burn out. The firefly burnt up and Emma was in danger of burning too.

Omega psychics can wield the power and exert some control.

Jean is more than a shell or a host because she is the Phoenix. She is the Phoenix's Heart and she is the White Phoenix of the Crown. The Phoenix is apart of her and she is apart of the Phoenix.

So will the cuckoos act as a shell for Jean to use for some purpose or will they host this fragment?

I didn't think they could act as a host because the cuckoos aren't Omegas. In New X-Men and Phoenix Endsong the cuckoos were worried about Quentin because he was an Omega, thus implying that they were not.

Perhaps their hive mind together could make them Omegas?

[JoJangles the Lizard Monster]

I seem to be getting turned off by Uncanny X-Men lately, I don't know exactly why.
Maybe it's the awful covers for the Vulcan stories, or the fact that I might just get bored with this 12 Part! storyline, knowing already that it seems all too boring and that barely anything exciting has happened yet.
Also, the way Brubaker is writing these characters.... I don't know, I just don't like it.

[Accroître]

Anything can be a shell for these Jean/Phoenix fragments but they have no control and will eventually burn out. The firefly burnt up and Emma was in danger of burning too.

Omega psychics can wield the power and exert some control.

Jean is more than a shell or a host because she is the Phoenix. She is the Phoenix's Heart and she is the White Phoenix of the Crown. The Phoenix is apart of her and she is apart of the Phoenix.

So will the cuckoos act as a shell for Jean to use for some purpose or will they host this fragment?

I didn't think they could act as a host because the cuckoos aren't Omegas. In New X-Men and Phoenix Endsong the cuckoos were worried about Quentin because he was an Omega, thus implying that they were not.

Perhaps their hive mind together could make them Omegas?

Thanks for the help....

[jarrod]

Jean is more than a shell or a host because she is the Phoenix. She is the Phoenix's Heart and she is the White Phoenix of the Crown. The Phoenix is apart of her and she is apart of the Phoenix.

So will the cuckoos act as a shell for Jean to use for some purpose or will they host this fragment?
Pre-Pak, all the hosts were actually Phoenix too. He misinterpreted Morrison's story while trying to conclusively reconcile the messy Byrne/Davis retcons, and now we have a clusterfuck of a story featuring "fragments of Jean" floating out there and possesing telepaths. Ugh.

The Phoneix isn't about possesing, it doesn't need a host, it's not some benevolent god/force. Elevation to the Phoenix is an internally triggered process, there's no external comsic parrot out there with a thing for redheads. Jean's done it (twice!). Rachel's done it. Even Quentin Quire did it.

Basically when it comes to the Phoenix, if Claremont or Morrison didn't write it, it's generally not worth considering imo.

[Beast]

Of course Morrison gave us the 'Green Phoenix Corps', so it's not really worth considering either. ;)

[Mikey Brown]

Beast, you are the King of all Trolls.

[Beast]

Beast, you are the King of all Trolls.
Please. Having a problem with a continuity blunder or the 'Green Phoenix Corps' isn't being trollish. However your post is. I guess you subscribe to the ole 'Pot calling the kettle black' rule, eh?

[Michael Sean]

Yes Morrison made the Phoenix into more of a power level and a state of being-- higher consciousness/role in the universe. Those that have mutations for omega telekinesis are basically Phoenixes who have a higher purpose in the Universe to burn that which doesn't work. They are connected to the Phoenix Consciousness (which perhaps is their collective consciousness from the White Hot Room or the collective souls of the undead as the term was defined as in the first Excalibur series) and when they die they go to the White Hot Room to do Phoenix Work and incubate to be reborn anew.

Jean is seemingly the main Phoenix as the White Phoenix of the Crown. In the script to New 154 in the trade Morrison writes that the other Phoenixes stand around Jean in awe and view her as the center of creation.

But I still like Pak's version because it could define Jean as the only true Phoenix with all others just having a missing fragment of her inside them.

[fishtaco]

And it was the real Jean who died on the moon. The original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix character was the real Jean. The Classic X-Men backstories, Morrison's New X-Men, and Pak's Phoenix Endsong says it was the real Jean.

They went back to the original idea of the original story.
If that is so (which I don't even think it is), then an explanation is needed for how Jean Grey came back in 1986 in the first place. If it was the real Jean that died, then who exactly was the character that we saw in X-Factor through Morrison's run? I see no evidence to support the conclusion that the character that died on the moon was the real Jean Grey in New X-Men or Phoenix Endsong.

[AnthonyJ]

If that is so (which I don't even think it is), then an explanation is needed for how Jean Grey came back in 1986 in the first place. If it was the real Jean that died, then who exactly was the character that we saw in X-Factor through Morrison's run?
Jean Grey. Per Morrison, when the Phoenix dies, it sometimes goes into an egg and waits to be reborn.

[Beast]

Jean Grey. Per Morrison, when the Phoenix dies, it sometimes goes into an egg and waits to be reborn.
It wasn't an egg in X-Factor. And we saw the story that explained Phoenix putting Jean into a cocoon and taking her place. Yes Jean now has all the memories of when Phoenix was her, but that was because she absorbed them later. While the Phoenix who died on the moon was part of Jean, it wasn't Jean herself.

[jarrod]

Of course Morrison gave us the 'Green Phoenix Corps', so it's not really worth considering either. ;)
He also gave us cat Beast! Fun fact: cats > monkeys.

[Beast]

He also gave us cat Beast! Fun fact: cats > monkeys.
Yes, Cats are superior to Monkeys. But Beast was an Ape. No tail. ;)

[fishtaco]

That doesn't explain how Jean came back.

[Michael Sean]

If that is so (which I don't even think it is), then an explanation is needed for how Jean Grey came back in 1986 in the first place. If it was the real Jean that died, then who exactly was the character that we saw in X-Factor through Morrison's run? I see no evidence to support the conclusion that the character that died on the moon was the real Jean Grey in New X-Men or Phoenix Endsong.


According to the Classic X-Men backstories #8 and #43 written by Chris Claremont in 1986 and 1990......

The Phoenix (gold woman said to be mother of stars yet derived from Jean Grey) made a new body for Jean that was just a shell for her transition. Jean becomes One with the Phoenix and a new body is created. Jean creates the cocoon and leaves a spark of herself in her original body just in case things go wrong.

After dying on the moon Death talks to Jean who is in her White Phoenix uniform and tells her that she is the Phoenix--that it comes from her and she comes from it. In the end she is sent back to life without remembering what she learned. She is split among the cocoon body and the her clone-- Maddie which was lifeless until then.

So Phoenix/Dark Phoenix and Jean from X-Factor were both the real Jean.

In Classic #42 Claremont had Jean manifest the Phoenix (gold woman with raptor-defined as an aspect of her unconscious mind) as an 11 or 12 year old girl. It was a little while after the Anne accident.

Jean was referenced as the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix character in both New X-Men and Endsong.

New X-Men showed that Jean Grey herself is the Phoenix by mutation and connection to the Phoenix Consciousness. Jean Grey is not literally replaced by the Phoenix but is consumed by her Phoenix Consciousness. It is her destiny to burn that which doesn't work. She dies to return. When she dies she goes to the White Hot Room (looks like the same afterlife she went to as White Phoenix in Claremont's Classic #43 story when she met Death) and is the White Phoenix of the Crown.

She can be reborn from a new body from a Phoenix Egg. It would seem that the cocoon may have been a Phoenix Egg.

Phoenix Endsong states that Jean Grey is always Jean and always Phoenix. She is the Phoenix's Heart. Its implied the raptor cannot manifest without her. While the "Phoenix" was outside of her she resurrected herself and defeated it. Jean and the "Phoenix" said that they were one and merged back together. Jean told the Phoenix "because I am you." Jean once again became White Phoenix and went to the White Hot Room to collect her pieces. The Phoenix (gold woman and raptor) was a missing piece of Jean.

Thus Jean can exist in multiple forms simultaneously.

[jarrod]

Jean is seemingly the main Phoenix as the White Phoenix of the Crown. In the script to New 154 in the trade Morrison writes that the other Phoenixes stand around Jean in awe and view her as the center of creation.
That's actually a misreading, Jean is called "a White Phoenix of the Crown" indicating there are others... probably Rachel for one, though Claremont's been positioning her as something else more post-Phoenix. Anyway, the key to Morrison's story was in making elevation to Phoenix something more widespread, something more understandable, something more purposeful. People center too much on his reversion to Claremont's classic setup of Jean being Phoenix, then Pak made the mistake of assuming that meant only Jean is Phoenix... which rather clearly wasn't Morrison's intent I'd say. Nor Claremont's honestly.

[DDM]

None of that makes any sense at all. It's like the biggest contradiction in comics history. Am I to understand that Brubaker is going to modify the Phoenix story, too?

It's more than likely the editors screwing up the Phoenix continuity. Obviously, they never read Uncanny X-Men #137.

[Michael Sean]

It wasn't an egg in X-Factor. And we saw the story that explained Phoenix putting Jean into a cocoon and taking her place. Yes Jean now has all the memories of when Phoenix was her, but that was because she absorbed them later. While the Phoenix who died on the moon was part of Jean, it wasn't Jean herself.

It might have been an egg. The cocoon was portrayed as a different shape in the Avengers issue than it was in the Fantastic Four issue. And when Jean came out they actually said "It's Hatching!".

Just like Jean hatched in HCT and will hatch later in current continuity according to Warsong.

In light of recent continuity the cocoon probably should be reinterpreted as a Phoenix Egg. Afterall that is Jean's lifecycle-- She dies, goes to the White Hot Room to do Work and incubate, and returns in a different body than she died in through a Phoenix Egg. She dies to return, always coming back. :)

That's actually a misreading, Jean is called "a White Phoenix of the Crown" indicating there are others... probably Rachel for one, though Claremont's been positioning her as something else more post-Phoenix. Anyway, the key to Morrison's story was in making elevation to Phoenix something more widespread, something more understandable, something more purposeful. People center too much on his reversion to Claremont's classic setup of Jean being Phoenix, then Pak made the mistake of assuming that meant only Jean is Phoenix... which rather clearly wasn't Morrison's intent I'd say. Nor Claremont's honestly.

Yes she was called A White Phoenix of the Crown. Perhaps there are others but we were not shown others. They all had different variations of colors. White is the combination of all other colors.

White can also be symbolic of Kether, the Crown. Its still symbolic of her being at the top of the heirarchy even if there are others with her or not.

He still wrote that the others were in awe of her and viewed her as the center of creation in his script. So I still think that implies she is something special even among other Phoenixes.

Jean first appeared in a White Phoenix costume in the Classic #43 bacsktory.

[streator]

i think uncanny looks good and warsong looks okay.
i'll be getting both of them.

both referenced star wars, i noticed.

[jarrod]

Yes, Cats are superior to Monkeys. But Beast was an Ape. No tail. ;)
No matter, cats > *

Also, Morrison > *

Neat how that works... but then does Morrison = cats?

[jarrod]

Yes she was called A White Phoenix of the Crown. Perhaps there are others but we were not shown others. They all had different variations of colors. White is the combination of all other colors.

White can also be symbolic of Kether, the Crown. Its still symbolic of her being at the top of the heirarchy even if there are others with her or not.

He still wrote that the others were in awe of her and viewed her as the center of creation in his script. So I still think that implies she is something special even among other Phoenixes.

Jean first appeared in a White Phoenix costume in the Classic #43 bacsktory.
Oh sure, Jean's clearly pretty unique, even among Phoenix. I always assumed maybe she's one of the elder Phoenix or something, possibly the first (nevermind Feron over there)... it might be a fun storyline to follow up on, exploring her earlier lives or something.

I wonder how Rachel fits into it though? Previously she'd been set up as essentially Jean's heir, but following the post-Morrison editorial mandate that only Jean = Phoenix, that's been rather muddied. She still displays the signature though, and the Shi'ar seem rather nervous around her... maybe she's an entirely new Phoenix? Maybe that's why she has no variants (yet)?

I know Claremont was trying to set up Rachel as something post-Phoenix, more like a mutant Jesus or something, but I'd think a story like that would get torpedoed pretty quick at Nu-Marvel.... unless Millar wanted to do it. ;)

[Affinity]

I'm too lazy to look at these.

I'm not really interested at all in Uncanny anymore. I'll read it but I won't hang on it like I am with X-Men. The art does look nice, though.

Warsong, I'll be getting but I won't necessarily like it. You know I'm getting those Silvestri covers, though.

[Hi-Fi]

Brubaker writes a great Lorna. I feel exactly the same way she does about Cyclops. He WAS a better person when Jean was around.

[jarrod]

better people = boring people

[Hi-Fi]

better people = boring people

Believe me, Cyclops is boring anyway.

[Beast]

Believe me, Cyclops is boring anyway.
Indeed. But now instead of better boring Scott, we have whipped boring Scott.

[Affinity]

Lol, seriously.

He really WAS better with Jean, though. I'm an Emma fan but even I have to admit. I hate Scott/Emma with a burning passion, but still.

I DO like, however, that we see that Lorna WAS around back in the day--back when Scott and Jean was one word.

[Michael Sean]

Oh sure, Jean's clearly pretty unique, even among Phoenix. I always assumed maybe she's one of the elder Phoenix or something, possibly the first (nevermind Feron over there)... it might be a fun storyline to follow up on, exploring her earlier lives or something.

I wonder how Rachel fits into it though? Previously she'd been set up as essentially Jean's heir, but following the post-Morrison editorial mandate that only Jean = Phoenix, that's been rather muddied. She still displays the signature though, and the Shi'ar seem rather nervous around her... maybe she's an entirely new Phoenix? Maybe that's why she has no variants (yet)?

I know Claremont was trying to set up Rachel as something post-Phoenix, more like a mutant Jesus or something, but I'd think a story like that would get torpedoed pretty quick at Nu-Marvel.... unless Millar wanted to do it. ;)


Rachel's just Marvel Girl, an alternate reality child of Jean. As Jean's daughter she shares the Phoenix potential and has displayed that type of power before and currently displays the Phoenix symbol over her eye- which I think is more of a nod to her heritage.

Jean displayed the same Phoenix symbol over her eye when Claremont came back to Uncanny in 2000 for his Revolution run.

I don't think Claremont planned on there being other Phoenixes at first. At first the Phoenix was Jean further evolved due to solar radiation and then later they said it was the result of Jean bonding with a force of primal passion. They said that the Phoenix was born when Jean and this force merged together. They had previously said that the Phoenix was created when Jean achieved her potential too fast on the shuttle due to the psychic breakers Xavier had placed in her mind.

I don't think he planned on others until he made Rachel. However, in his own mind Rachel was like an asexual reproduction of Jean as Phoenix and didn't have a biological father.

There are other versions of Rachel. They have appeared in Exiles. However since they said in the Cross Time Caper (I think) that there was only one Rachel, in his latest Uncanny run he had her say that while there are other versions of her they are still not her. Which is odd because couldn't any other character claim the same thing? Or is it because they are Rachel Summers and she is Rachel Grey?

Rachel isn't really needed as a Phoenix heir because Jean is the Phoenix and dies to always return so Jean can do the Phoenix Work in this universe and shouldn't ever need a replacement.

In the new AOA mini series they had the Phoenix be Jean's ancestral mutation from Mutant Alpha.

In Grey's End they treat it almost like that and killed Jean's family because they could have the potential to be Phoenixes. It could be interesting if they made the Phoenix Corp Jean's lineage and relatives instead of other beings or beings with Jean's fragments inside them.

Morrison definitely intented for there to be others as Quentin was a Phoenix too. I think Morrison did that to explain the existance of other Phoenixes in past stories. He really streamlined the Phoenix continuity while adding his own spin and returning Jean to being the Phoenix and the Phoenix of the original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix story. And he did draw upon past continuity even though some accused him of not doing that. Jean as a White Phoenix in the WHR seemed to be inspired by the Classic 43 story where Jean appears in the afterlife in a white Phoenix costume. And the term Phoenix Consciousness was first used in the first Excalibur series. Rachel was consumed by the Phoenix Consciousness while her body healed and it talked to Galactus. At that time the Phoenix Consciousness was defined as the souls of the future unborn.

Since Morrison hinted that we are all always in the WHR waiting for ourselves to arrive and that Quentin met his parents there before he was born and the fact that Phoenixes like Jean go there when they are dead and waiting to be reborn....

I wonder if the Phoenixes themselves could be considered apart of the future unborn while they are there?

I do like the Phoenix just being a natural part of Jean and something unique to her like it was in X3 and was when Jean first became Phoenix so I hope they keep in this way for a while.

[Blackcat]

It does look like two forces are talking to the Cuckoos. Hmmm I wonder what these two forces are.......

[Ed Brubaker]

I don't mind the small ones, but the Dark Phoenix saga was a massive event in the lives of the X-Men. For Havok to somehow get the facts of the event wrong, it just annoys me a lot. Not to mention I like Brubaker's run so far, but stuff like this is going to end up spiraling out of control.

Honestly, when I wrote it, I just meant it as him thinking of the Shi'ar as being responsible, in his mind, since they were going to kill her, until the sacrifice. I don't know that he, as an almost brother in law, who loved her, would let them off the hook for their part, even though Jean was long gone at the time.

But I worried people would read it how you did and almost changed it, but I figured, since all my editors got it the way I meant, that it'd be okay.

I know the Shi'ar didn't physically kill Jean.

And I also know that Jean didn't toss Krakoa into space, which was not my mistake. :)

[Beast]

Honestly, when I wrote it, I just meant it as him thinking of the Shi'ar as being responsible, in his mind, since they were going to kill her, until the sacrifice. I don't know that he, as an almost brother in law, who loved her, would let them off the hook for their part, even though Jean was long gone at the time.

But I worried people would read it how you did and almost changed it, but I figured, since all my editors got it the way I meant, that it'd be okay.

I know the Shi'ar didn't physically kill Jean.

And I also know that Jean didn't toss Krakoa into space, which was not my mistake. :)
These are the same editors that thought Tessa was a new character though. ;)

Plus Havok's comment makes it come off as if they were the ones who actually did the deed.

But I understand, no biggie. But I'm one of those grumbly canon folks. :D

[dotdotdot]

oh hey bru

[steve2275]

:) oooo a sockfoot cuckoo

[Daithi]

Rachel's just Marvel Girl, an alternate reality child of Jean. As Jean's daughter she shares the Phoenix potential and has displayed that type of power before and currently displays the Phoenix symbol over her eye- which I think is more of a nod to her heritage.

She doesn't just share the potential. She was Phoenix for nearly a decade. Marvel Girl's just a codename considering Rachel has pulled off Phoenix-like stunts as Marvel Girl.

[DDM]

Honestly, when I wrote it, I just meant it as him thinking of the Shi'ar as being responsible, in his mind, since they were going to kill her, until the sacrifice. I don't know that he, as an almost brother in law, who loved her, would let them off the hook for their part, even though Jean was long gone at the time.

But I worried people would read it how you did and almost changed it, but I figured, since all my editors got it the way I meant, that it'd be okay.

I know the Shi'ar didn't physically kill Jean.

And I also know that Jean didn't toss Krakoa into space, which was not my mistake. :)

Considering Scott witnesses Jean, as Dark Phoenix, commit suicide, I would think Alex would have the correct information about Phoenix's death as chronicled in Uncanny X-Men #137. Alex also knows Jean. They were once teammates in the original X-Men series.

The Shi'ar were right in seeking retribution since Dark Phoenix destroyed D'Bari's star, an ally absorbed in the Shi'ar Empire & she destroyed a Shi'ar star cruiser.

I think you should have made the effort to be more cogent about the description. It gives the impression you have not read Uncanny X-Men #137. I won't even mention the editors. They are worse.

[Ed Brubaker]

I disagree, DDM, I don't think that Alex would let the Shi'ar off the hook anyway. If I was in his place, I'd blame them for her death even though she committed suicide, just out of emotion. She only committed suicide because of the corner they backed her into, is certainly a way someone who cared about her could view it, if they were angry. Whether they were right to go after her or not.

[rilokyle]

I disagree, DDM, I don't think that Alex would let the Shi'ar off the hook anyway. If I was in his place, I'd blame them for her death even though she committed suicide, just out of emotion. She only committed suicide because of the corner they backed her into, is certainly a way someone who cared about her could view it, if they were angry. Whether they were right to go after her or not.
I totally agree Mr. Brubaker. It's not like the X-Men were happy that Jean was forced to kill herself. And they sure were pretty angry with the Shi'ar for putting them and Jean in such a grave position like that. I mean, yes, she did kill an entire solar system, but its not like the X-Men had turned their backs from Jean and thought it best to kill her. There were other alternatives that I'm sure the X-Men would rather have used. After all, they WERE fighting the Imperial Guard for Jean's life. So yeah, I think its safe to say that Alex and the others would have held a grudge against the Shi'ar for putting Jean in such a lifedeath position, and in turn blame them for forcing Jean to kill herself.

And sorry about certain people being so rude and nitpicky to you and your editors. I promise, we're not all this anal. :rolleyes:

Oh, and keep up the good work! Bring on the Alex/Lorna awesomeness!! :)

[kate-pryde]

I agree with Ed that Alex would blame the Shi'ar. I highly doubt Alex or Lorna would be rational at all in thinking that Jean was at fault or blame her for anything Dark Phoenix did.

I think the phrasing "the Shi'ar are the ones responsible for her death" would have been better than "killed her", since people will take it more literally.

Except that one sentence, I absolutely love that scene with Lorna and Alex. It's too bad that line is gonna get nit-picked to death.

[Deus ex Chris]

I disagree, DDM, I don't think that Alex would let the Shi'ar off the hook anyway. If I was in his place, I'd blame them for her death even though she committed suicide, just out of emotion. She only committed suicide because of the corner they backed her into, is certainly a way someone who cared about her could view it, if they were angry. Whether they were right to go after her or not.
Stop trying to give these character their own interpretations of events. They're all supposed to see things the exact same way for the sake of posterity and continuity. Didn't you get the memo?

[Gene M.]

Stop trying to give these character their own interpretations of events. They're all supposed to see things the exact same way for the sake of posterity and continuity. Didn't you get the memo?

At least somebody gets it!

[Syzygy]

I seem to be getting turned off by Uncanny X-Men lately, I don't know exactly why.
Maybe it's the awful covers for the Vulcan stories, or the fact that I might just get bored with this 12 Part! storyline, knowing already that it seems all too boring and that barely anything exciting has happened yet.
Also, the way Brubaker is writing these characters.... I don't know, I just don't like it.

It's interesting enough to me, although I have some reservations about the timing. Nearly fifty students dead, the Institute turned into a concentration camp, and Xavier picks now to go off on a mission to the Shi'ar galaxy. It's like Xavier is saying that this one student, Vulcan, is more important than all the others back on campus in the concentration camp.

As the story winds on, the Professor having taken away a needed X-Team will begin to feel more and more oppresive.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Syzygy]

That's actually a misreading, Jean is called "a White Phoenix of the Crown" indicating there are others... probably Rachel for one, though Claremont's been positioning her as something else more post-Phoenix. Anyway, the key to Morrison's story was in making elevation to Phoenix something more widespread, something more understandable, something more purposeful. People center too much on his reversion to Claremont's classic setup of Jean being Phoenix, then Pak made the mistake of assuming that meant only Jean is Phoenix... which rather clearly wasn't Morrison's intent I'd say. Nor Claremont's honestly.

I'm going to throw my two cents into the pot on this issue. (Jarrod, I'm not really responding to any specific point of yours, just using your quote as a general launching pad.)

Yes, the Phoenix mythos is confusing and contradictory. Generally speaking, that's not good for a story. But perhaps it's okay for some comic elements to be confusing and contradictory...at least when they deal with cosmic or divine phenomena beyond mortal comprehension.

I'm reminded of the many theological paradoxes many of us were taught (or indoctrinated with) in Sunday school. How can it be just that a perfectly benevolent God sends non-Christians to Hell? "Well...He's God, and mortals can't question that, our minds are too puny." No longer a child, I'm happy to say I no longer believe that dogma.

But, for cosmic beings in comic books, it somehow seems appropriate. In the Marvel Universe, cosmic and divine beings just ARE, and all us mortal readers--and even the X-Men themselves, in their comic-book world--just can't hope to comprehend all that paradoxical cosmic stuff. Maybe the proper attitude is to just let it go, so long as each individual story arc is consistent.

I get much more upset when merely mortal characters are written a contradictory and confusing continuity. Why? Because while the laws of space and time may not apply to gods, they certainly apply to mortals.

Just one reader's opinion.

Peace,
Syzygy

[kate-pryde]

It's interesting enough to me, although I have some reservations about the timing. Nearly fifty students dead, the Institute turned into a concentration camp, and Xavier picks now to go off on a mission to the Shi'ar galaxy. It's like Xavier is saying that this one student, Vulcan, is more important than all the others back on campus in the concentration camp.


Wait, look at it from Xavier's prospective. He has more reasons to go stop Vulcan than just one student:

He created a menace that wants to kill his ex-fiancée, who he still loves

He needs to warn Cosair and Vulcan could potentially kill the Starjammers.

The Shi'ar have wiped out the Greys and are going to kill Rachel (In 811, Xavier is essentially a grandfather type figure to Rachel, so in a way she's family as well). So he needs to help her deal with that situation. And probably wants to know why the Shi'ar (esp. Lilandra) would kill the Greys.

Scott asked him to leave the Institute, so what's he suppose to do, forcefully stick around outside?

Charles wasn't even around prior to Deadly Genesis. He's been off hiding since M-day.

Trying to stop Vulcan, and possibly redeem him, is about all Charles can really do.

[Syzygy]

I disagree, DDM, I don't think that Alex would let the Shi'ar off the hook anyway. If I was in his place, I'd blame them for her death even though she committed suicide, just out of emotion. She only committed suicide because of the corner they backed her into, is certainly a way someone who cared about her could view it, if they were angry. Whether they were right to go after her or not.

I'll defend you on this one Ed. I'm reminded here of the Felony Murder Rule, which, essentially, states that if someone is killed while you commit a felony, YOU, the perpetrator, are responsible.

So--if I remember this stuff correctly--if you're commiting armed robbery, and a police officer shoots at you, misses, and kills a bystander, you, the robber, can be tried for murder.

Whether or not I remember this stuff correctly, this is the spirit in which Havok is saying that the Shi'ar killed Jean. At least, that's how I see it.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Babylon23]

I don't really see anything wrong with the Havok comment. Plenty of x-characters have blamed Lilandra for her role in the DPS in the past. I'd probably still harbour certain negative feelings towards her and the Shi'ar.

As for the preview, there's not much to it, other than a nice character moment for Havok and Polaris. I have to admit, I'm still looking for something in this story to really grab me. Vulcan isn't really holding my interest at all as an antagonist, and the plot hasn't done much for me yet either.

[Syzygy]

Wait, look at it from Xavier's prospective. He has more reasons to go stop Vulcan than just one student:

He created a menace that wants to kill his ex-fiancée, who he still loves

He needs to warn Cosair and Vulcan could potentially kill the Starjammers.

The Shi'ar have wiped out the Greys and are going to kill Rachel (In 811, Xavier is essentially a grandfather type figure to Rachel, so in a way she's family as well). So he needs to help her deal with that situation. And probably wants to know why the Shi'ar (esp. Lilandra) would kill the Greys.

Scott asked him to leave the Institute, so what's he suppose to do, forcefully stick around outside?

Charles wasn't even around prior to Deadly Genesis. He's been off hiding since M-day.

Trying to stop Vulcan, and possibly redeem him, is about all Charles can really do.

I think you're right, Kate, in that Xavier is doing what he thinks best from his own perspective. I grant that, and I think you've expressed his point-of-view well. I just think Xavier's perspective is wrong.

As to Charles having "created" Vulcan--by which you mean made him vindictive and hate-filled, I take it--no, Vulcan's vendetta with the Shi'ar predates his time with Xavier. The Shi'ar murdered Gabe's mother and made him a slave. Xavier's got nothing to do with that. You're right, though, in that Xavier, with his huge ego, would believe that he's responsible for Vulcan's choices.

You may have a point with Marvel Girl, in that the Shi'ar want to kill her. The best defense is a good offense. Sure, strike at the Shi'ar to defend Rachel; I'm all for it, if a workable plan can be devised. Except they're trying to stop Vulcan from harming the Shi'ar, and Xavier explicitly stated that Rachel's problems with the Shi'ar were not to be the focus of this mission. Personally, I believe Rachel's entitled to her vengeance, but Boss Xavier has declared this off-limits (as if he has any hope of controlling her).

I just think Xavier's reasons for going on this mission are pretty selfish. I think Xavier wants, primarily, to "redeem" himself, not Vulcan. Perhaps he couldn't have made a contribution without his powers, or perhaps, as a strategist, he could have...but even if he couldn't have done any good, he still took a needed X-team away from the Mansion. They need all the help they can get these days, and even if Xavier can't help out, Marvel Girl, Nightcrawler, Havok, Polaris, Warpath, and Darwin are sorely needed. Conceded: Xavier wants to do something...so he weakens the Mansion defenses by snatching an X-Team!?

So many students have been murdered, I get a different figure every time I count.

And if you count none of those objections as any good, there's always this: that not one of Xavier's team has even questioned the propriety of packing off to the Shi'ar galaxy when mutantkind, in its darkest hour, desparately needs them on Earth. Makes it seem like they don't care about what goes on back home.

(Neither does anyone on Xavier's crew raise other important points: 1) whether or not the Galaxy-ruling Shi'ar Empire is, in fact, in danger from a single, lone mutant, 2) whether it should be saved if it is, and 3) just how they're going to "redeem" Vulcan once they find him. Doesn't it seem only reasonable to ask these questions before rushing off to the Shi'ar galaxy?)

I'm willing to look at it from Xavier's viewpoint. Kate, will you look at it from the student's viewpoint? Just after the latest Stryker attack (Kurt's team was mentioned in New X-Men #26, so it's before they left) Xavier and a bunch of X-Men pack off for another galaxy. What would you conclude if you were one of them, one of the few survivors of a dying species, packed into a concentration camp, and slowly being murdered off, when the founder of your school flies as far away as galaxy M-31 with much needed muscle?

Peace,
Syzygy

[kate-pryde]

You may have a point with Marvel Girl, in that the Shi'ar want to kill her; the best defense is a good offense...except I think Xavier stated that Rachel's problems with the Shi'ar were not to be the focus of this mission. Personally, I believe Rachel's entitled to her vengeance, but Xavier has explicitly stated that was off-limits (as if he has any hope of controlling her).

It's not so much that Ray needs to go after the Shi'ar first. I think Xavier's trying to resolve the situation with as little collateral
damage as possible.

Xavier said they'll deal with the situation with the Shi'ar and Rachel his way. He's not out for revenge. But they do need to find out exactly what's going on with the Shi'ar and try to convince them to stop trying to kill Rachel. Otherwise, the Shi'ar could send others after Rachel.

Since Ray has the phallic Phoenix tattoo/tracking device on her back, she's a sitting duck. In fact, the whole mansion is in danger if the Shi'ar attack in full force with the intent on destroying Rachel. The Shi'ar nearly blew up all of Chicago just to kill Rachel. What might they do next?

Xavier's plan is to reach Vulcan before he gets to Shi'ar space. Meaning the mission should only take a week or two at the most. I doubt Chuck thinks he's going to be gone from Earth that long. And if he doesn't resolve the issues with Scott, he's not going to really have a role at the school.

Lorna and Alex's conversation in 478 about Xavier's abuse of Rachel's telepathic powers is reminiscent of Ororo and Scott's conversation during the Dark Phoenix Saga about how Jean was using her telepathic abilities against innocent people (altering Kitty's parent's memories).

I'm guessing that's not a coincidence and we're going to see Xavier keep going farther off the deep end in terms of ethics in order to achieve his goals, and perhaps further corruption of Rachel.

[Syzygy]

The Shi'ar nearly blew up all of Chicago just to kill Rachel. What might they do next?

This is the best justification for the mission I've yet heard--protecting Earth and it's people from Shi'ar assault. But it was never clearly mentioned in the arc.

If this is one of Xavier's goals, Brubaker should have had him simply come out and say so. But it wasn't. From my reading, Xavier's mostly interested in "redeeming" Vucan (i.e., himself), and simply spouts that guff about dealing with the Shi'ar to make Rachel quiescent.

If Brubaker had had Xavier mention the safety of Earth from Shi'ar hostility from the beginning, I'd have had a lot less problems with this arc.

He hasn't though. What I heard was a lot of stuff about Vulcan that didn't seem to plausible to me.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Daithi]

The Shi'ar have wiped out the Greys and are going to kill Rachel (In 811, Xavier is essentially a grandfather type figure to Rachel, so in a way she's family as well). So he needs to help her deal with that situation. And probably wants to know why the Shi'ar (esp. Lilandra) would kill the Greys.


Judging from the previews I'm guessing that Lilandra didn't issue the order herself but the vice-chancellor and his his superior did. Or they forced her like they forced her to annul her marriage. She really loves Charley. Though didn't she try to kill him once on Earth in New X-Men?

I really hope we're not going down the road of the evil Shi'ar council and poor innocent unstable Lilandra.

[Syzygy]

Judging from the previews I'm guessing that Lilandra didn't issue the order herself but the vice-chancellor and his his superior did. Or they forced her like they forced her to annul her marriage. She really loves Charley. Though didn't she try to kill him once on Earth in New X-Men?

I really hope we're not going down the road of the evil Shi'ar council and poor innocent unstable Lilandra.

Lilandra has what's called "plausible deniability". One way or another she's insulated from the crimes of her subordinates. Or, as George Bush Sr. put it in regard to the Iran-Contra scandal, she was "out of the loop".

Unlike Harry Truman, very few leaders are willing to agree that "the buck stops here".

Peace,
Syzygy

[DDM]

I disagree, DDM, I don't think that Alex would let the Shi'ar off the hook anyway. If I was in his place, I'd blame them for her death even though she committed suicide, just out of emotion. She only committed suicide because of the corner they backed her into, is certainly a way someone who cared about her could view it, if they were angry. Whether they were right to go after her or not.

An editor's note about Havok's bias of the events would help out the reader. Otherwise, it's lazy writing & editing.

[Daithi]

An editor's note about Havok's bias of the events would help out the reader. Otherwise, it's lazy writing & editing.

Different people have different takes on events. People don't need editor notes explaining that Havok is human.

[Keith_Martineau]

Here's the thing kids.

Yes, we, the editors, and Mr. Brubaker all read that issue of X-Men.

But the X-Men didn't read it. They "lived" it. And if we're gonna take these characters seriously enough to actually have this argument, then we have to also take seriously the fact that they are all individual people, with individual feelings and interpretations of events.

It's not like they have weekly meetings where they all go over their past and make sure everyone thinks and feels and remembers events the exact same way.

And I don't need an editors note to tell me that.

Next?

[MrHooligan13]

Thats it...I say we give Cable the Phoenix force! :p

[dotdotdot]

oh well edited

[Jake V]

what idiocy in general. we gotta class this board up. we gotta drown out voices like ddm and beast. who's with me rise up or something. man this is good coffee.
Calling out people by name, no matter how they come off to everyone else, is a good way to get yourself permanently drowned out.

[dotdotdot]

continuing to argue your point after being told by the writer what's up........
insufferable. but there was some humor to the post, those guys aren't supposed to take it too seriously.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

It would have been MUCH MUCH MUCH better if Havok said something like " I still feel that the Shi'ar were responsible for Jean's death." Rather than having him state it as a matter of fact.

[Ed Brubaker]

Here's the thing kids.

Yes, we, the editors, and Mr. Brubaker all read that issue of X-Men.

But the X-Men didn't read it. They "lived" it. And if we're gonna take these characters seriously enough to actually have this argument, then we have to also take seriously the fact that they are all individual people, with individual feelings and interpretations of events.

It's not like they have weekly meetings where they all go over their past and make sure everyone thinks and feels and remembers events the exact same way.

And I don't need an editors note to tell me that.

Next?


Wow. That's the best post ever.

I have found myself pointing out to people before that any Marvel or DC characters haven't read and memorized the comics they're in the way fans have in the past, but I like the way you phrased it here.

[Hi-Fi]

Ed, when are you going to see Hepzibah?? I demand some Hepzibah!!

[Deus ex Chris]

An editor's note about Havok's bias of the events would help out the reader. Otherwise, it's lazy writing & editing.
If you have trouble understanding that characters have individual points of view, perhaps reading comics isn't for you. In fact, maybe you should stay away from television and film, as well. Hell, while you're at it, you might want to stop interacting with the rest of the human race. We each have interpretations of events we experience, and those interpretations never match perfectly, and we don't get an editor's note to tell us that...

[jarrod]

Believe me, Cyclops is boring anyway.
But at least now, he's not dragging Jean down with him. Even being dead and out of the comics is better than Jeanscott...


I don't think he planned on others until he made Rachel. However, in his own mind Rachel was like an asexual reproduction of Jean as Phoenix and didn't have a biological father.
I agree, indroducing Rachel was likely the point where Claremont decided on making Phoenix more than just Jean... but your interpretation of Rachel as an asexual reproduction is strange Rachel was really intended to be more something else, post-Phoenix, based loosely on the holy trinity. I wouldn't exactly consider Jesus an "asexual reproduction" of Mary, biologics be damned. ;)


There are other versions of Rachel. They have appeared in Exiles. However since they said in the Cross Time Caper (I think) that there was only one Rachel, in his latest Uncanny run he had her say that while there are other versions of her they are still not her. Which is odd because couldn't any other character claim the same thing? Or is it because they are Rachel Summers and she is Rachel Grey?
Nope, Rachel's entirely unique... she's the only child of the Phoenix itself, throughout the multiverse. Other Rachel variants have all been the child of Jean and Scott, our Rachel's not (though she thinks she is).


Rachel isn't really needed as a Phoenix heir because Jean is the Phoenix and dies to always return so Jean can do the Phoenix Work in this universe and shouldn't ever need a replacement.
Which is probably why Claremont was trying to position her as something else entirely, post editorial misunderstanding of Morrison's revision.


In Grey's End they treat it almost like that and killed Jean's family because they could have the potential to be Phoenixes. It could be interesting if they made the Phoenix Corp Jean's lineage and relatives instead of other beings or beings with Jean's fragments inside them.
I could see that, at least in 616 specifically. Quentin would need some retconning though... unless maybe we related him to Jean's lineage. Maybe relating all Phoenix to Feron's lineage specifically would work though, it'd make some sense that through the ages, the genes have spread... maybe it's just "stronger" in Jean's family?


Morrison definitely intented for there to be others as Quentin was a Phoenix too. I think Morrison did that to explain the existance of other Phoenixes in past stories. He really streamlined the Phoenix continuity while adding his own spin and returning Jean to being the Phoenix and the Phoenix of the original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix story. And he did draw upon past continuity even though some accused him of not doing that. Jean as a White Phoenix in the WHR seemed to be inspired by the Classic 43 story where Jean appears in the afterlife in a white Phoenix costume. And the term Phoenix Consciousness was first used in the first Excalibur series. Rachel was consumed by the Phoenix Consciousness while her body healed and it talked to Galactus. At that time the Phoenix Consciousness was defined as the souls of the future unborn.
Agreed. Morrison mainly just fit the existing pieces together in a logical sense more than anything, and tied it back to Claremont's original concept. The only component he really added was the purpose, which works wonderfully imo.


Judging from the previews I'm guessing that Lilandra didn't issue the order herself but the vice-chancellor and his his superior did. Or they forced her like they forced her to annul her marriage. She really loves Charley. Though didn't she try to kill him once on Earth in New X-Men?

I really hope we're not going down the road of the evil Shi'ar council and poor innocent unstable Lilandra.
Agreed... I much preferred unstable, psycho Lilandra. Lilandra as the X-Men/Xaiver's adversary is far more charged and interesting than the road we look to be headed down with easily discernable "bad guys" running everything from behind the curtain... plus it could set up the always fun role reversal of the "good guy" (Lilandra) being "bad" and the "bad guy" (Deathbird) being "good".

Didn't in End of Greys, the Death Corps mention extermination orders came for the Majestrix herself though?

[kate-pryde]

I agree with Ed about Havok's line, but let me play Devil's advocate.

Assume someone doesn't know that Havok is technically not entirely accurate and hasn't read the Dark Phoenix saga. To them, it would appear that the Shi'ar killed Jean Grey, who everyone loves, and the Shi'ar seem like dangerous villains.

From that point of view, exactly why are the X-Men trying to stop Vulcan from wiping out the Shi'ar? The Shi'ar seem like murdering, enslaving SOBs who need to be wiped out.

Alex has every right to blame the Shi'ar for Jean's death. However, the Shi'ar had every right to want Phoenix dead. After all, she wiped out an entire planet, killing millions of people.

That also relates to the situation with Rachel and why the Shi'ar want her dead.

I think Alex blaming the Shi'ar for Jean's death shows his state of mind. He's angry. He hates the Shi'ar. I could see later on Alex saying, "screw stopping Vulcan, let's destroy the Shi'ar" and joining with Gabriel.

Back in 476, Rachel says, "The Shi'ar are monsters, Professor." but Chuck corrects her, "They were, yes, and they could easily be that again."

Alex's statement is basically the first part, without someone like Xavier coming in and correcting him.

From the perspective of someone who knows the backstory, you can say "that's not right, Alex, they didn't kill Jean, she killed herself and she needed to die because Dark Phoenix killed the Asparagus people". But without that knowledge of the backstory, Alex's statement is kind of lost on you.

This is a case where things need to be explained in a Claremont-esque let's catch up new readers and explore character's thoughts with lots and lots of backstory exposition. I know lots of words on the page explaining what people are thinking is verboten now, but this is a situation where it might work. And this is a story that's kind of difficult to follow unless you know a lot of backstory.

Also, Marvel raised a generation of fans who scrutinized every single detail in a quest to receive a prize that doesn't even really exist. (Didn't Marvel just bring back the No Prize? If we email in about this, can we get one? :D )

Again, I'm not disagreeing with Mr. Brubaker. Everyone looks for someone else to blame when a loved one dies. I'm just pointing out the possible confusion with that line. But maybe the rest of the issue/later issues address what really happened and it's a moot point.

[kate-pryde]

Mr Brubaker, if you happen to stop by again, would you settle something?

How old do you think Rachel is? Has she been officially "de-aged"?

In Excalibur, she was written as several years older than Kitty. Kitty's now at least 18. So, Ray should be 20-21.

However, a lot of some people have been insisting she's been written as if she's 15-16ish.

Is there any official age for Rachel currently?

[jarrod]

Ray's 2-3 years older than Kitty, 1-2 years younger than Rogue. She's also the same age as Dani and Sam iirc.... throwing out my previous X-Men ages guesses...

40s/50s?
-Xaiver
-Cable

early 30s
-Beast
-Emma Frost
-Psylocke

late 20s
-Cyclops
-Bishop
-Havok
-Polaris
-Nightcrawler
-Darwin

mid 20s
-Iceman
-Colossus
-Rogue
-Karma

early 20s
-Marvel Girl
-Cannonball
-Shadowcat

???
-Wolverine
-Mystique

[xmanson]

I think Emma is in her early 40's.

[Affinity]

If they kept her as White Queen she easily would have been a crazy old woman.

[Ed Brubaker]

Hey Kate Pryde -- I assumed that Rachel is in her early to maybe mid-20s, but that's just my view from how long she's been around.

Also, I see your point about the confusion, but I really don't think it's such a big deal that it needed some bad expository dialog to explain it. It's just two people who are very close having a conversation as they walk, it's not the point of the issue. I'd rather have a bit of confusion than bad dialog, if I can avoid it. I'm sure I have enough clunkers as it is.

[rilokyle]

Also, I see your point about the confusion, but I really don't think it's such a big deal that it needed some bad expository dialog to explain it. It's just two people who are very close having a conversation as they walk, it's not the point of the issue. I'd rather have a bit of confusion than bad dialog, if I can avoid it. I'm sure I have enough clunkers as it is.
I like this phrase the best for obvious reasons. Hey Ed, how do you feel about an Alex/Lorna reunion? You know they're supposed to be together. Whether or not they reunite, I'm glad they're still close with each other. :)

[Daithi]

Rachel was really intended to be more something else, post-Phoenix, based loosely on the holy trinity. I wouldn't exactly consider Jesus an "asexual reproduction" of Mary, biologics be damned. ;)


Yeah it was supoposed to be The Mother, The Daughter and The Phoenix.


Didn't in End of Greys, the Death Corps mention extermination orders came for the Majestrix herself though?

Yes but bureaucracy being what is it mightn't have come from Lilandra herself. Or her evil council persuaded her to do so.

[Hi-Fi]

Ed, I can't believe you dodge my Hepzibah question!! I assume she'll play a big part from that. :p

[spoon_jenkins]

At the risk of being labeled a sychophantic kiss-up, I agree with Ed Brubaker's comments. I read Havok's comments how Ed seems to have intended them. I didn't realize the supposed "problem", until I read the comments in this thread, because Havok dialogue seemed to fit to me.

I mean, when I read all those Phoenix issues, I tend to think of her the same way Alex does. I think to myself, "Jean's kissing Scott on the butte," or "Jean's battling Proteus." Even though I know it was the Phoenix entity, I don't think to myself that it's just the entity doing things. I think it's entirely appropriate that Alex would think the same way. I mean this wasn't a cheap impersonation; Phoenix basically was operating with Jean's own mind. For intents and purposes to Jean's friends and family (including me :) ), that was (and is) Jean. They don't lose that emotional resonance just because she was found alive at the bottom of the bay.

In fact, I think to have Alex say the Phoenix entity died would be less authentic, in terms of what Alex would likely say, than to have him say that Jean died.

Similarly, although Jean/Phoenix slew herself, I think it makes perfect sense for Alex to blame the Shi'ar. That's another case in which I think the same way Alex (through Ed Brubaker) does. I tend to think of the Shi'ar as having caused her death because they created the situation.

I don't think those are mistakes. On the contrary, it's good writing.

The one I did think might be a continuity glitch was Alex "any of us" at the airport when Havok and Lorna weren't there. But I'm just taking that as "us" means the X-Men rather than him specifically.

This isn't pro-contintuity fans versus anti-continuity fans, because I consider myself an old school fan favoring consistency and I love the job Ed's doing. Here's a guy who actually refers to the Shi'ar throneworld (Chandilar) by name and has Shi'ar folks invoke Sharra and Ky'thri (sp?). I love how reverent it is of the old school stuff. :D

The preview looks great. Glad to see how Lorna's being portrayed.

[Daithi]

The preview looks great. Glad to see how Lorna's being portrayed.

Loved the shot of Lorna and Havok beside the window. Although this is the second time Rachel has referenced the Jedi (http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/2017/rayjediax1.jpg)while in Shi'ar space. Guess Star Wars has a certain resonance with Rachel.

[jarrod]

Yes but bureaucracy being what is it mightn't have come from Lilandra herself. Or her evil council persuaded her to do so.
Ugh.

psycho, vengeful Lilandra >>>>> evil council of Oz

[xmanson]

At the risk of being labeled a sychophantic kiss-up, I agree with Ed Brubaker's comments...


You sychophantic kiss-up!!!!

[fishtaco]

At the risk of being labeled a sychophantic kiss-up, I agree with Ed Brubaker's comments. I read Havok's comments how Ed seems to have intended them. I didn't realize the supposed "problem", until I read the comments in this thread, because Havok dialogue seemed to fit to me.I hate this book, and I agree too. There was nothing wrong with Alex's statement about Jean's death. The Sh'iar didn't literally kill her, but she wouldn't have killed herself if they didn't get involved. The Shi'ar have some responsibility for her death, although they didn't actually kill her. It's a metaphor that Havok used because he was angry.

[spoon_jenkins]

You sychophantic kiss-up!!!!
It was a risk I had to take. ;)

[Syzygy]

I hate this book

Hate is such a very strong word. You can take umbrage at a few elements of a book without hating it, you know.

Or is it just the fact that they kicked Chris Claremont off Uncanny that you hate?

[kate-pryde]

Rachel was really intended to be more something else, post-Phoenix, based loosely on the holy trinity. I wouldn't exactly consider Jesus an "asexual reproduction" of Mary, biologics be damned. ;)

Ed Brubaker said something interesting about Rachel in Marvel Spotlight :

"And you know her history with the Shi'Ar, they wiped out every person that she's genetically related to."

So, is Rachel not genetically related to the Summers?

Even if she isn't, Rachel has to still be genetically related to Nathan, since Maddie was Jean's clone, so the Shi'ar didn't wipe out everyone she is genetically related to.

Ever since the I heard Ray was going by Grey instead of Summers, I thought the retcon that Scott isn't her father will be coming.

After everything that happened in AoC&P, after Rachel sacrificed everything to save Nathan, after Rachel gave Scott the opportunity to raise his son, after Scott promised Jean he wouldn't let things end like that with Rachel, after apologizing to Rachel for being such a crappy father, Scott is given the opportunity to have a second chance with Rachel, and he ignores her and essentially agrees with Emma that she should never have been born. :mad:

If Scott turns out to not be Ray's biological father, it's just another get out of free card for Scott abandoning another one of his kids.

[xmanson]

It was a risk I had to take. ;)


Yeah... you know how mean people in this board are.

[fishtaco]

Ed Brubaker said something interesting about Rachel in Marvel Spotlight :

"And you know her history with the Shi'Ar, they wiped out every person that she's genetically related to."

So, is Rachel not genetically related to the Summers?

Even if she isn't, Rachel has to still be genetically related to Nathan, since Maddie was Jean's clone, so the Shi'ar didn't wipe out everyone she is genetically related to.

Ever since the I heard Ray was going by Grey instead of Summers, I thought the retcon that Scott isn't her father will be coming.

After everything that happened in AoC&P, after Rachel sacrificed everything to save Nathan, after Rachel gave Scott the opportunity to raise his son, after Scott promised Jean he wouldn't let things end like that with Rachel, after apologizing to Rachel for being such a crappy father, Scott is given the opportunity to have a second chance with Rachel, and he ignores her and essentially agrees with Emma that she should never have been born. :mad:

If Scott turns out to not be Ray's biological father, it's just another get out of free card for Scott abandoning another one of his kids.Well, what bothers me about it is that Rachel has lately been written as often dependent on Cyclops, like how she needs his support to get over Jean's death or something, yet he just turns to Emma. I like how she just blew off Jean in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14. If Rachel was written correctly, she wouldn't be idolizing Jean and dressing up as her and taking her old alias to "honor" her. Yuck!

[Daithi]

If Rachel was written correctly, she wouldn't be idolizing Jean and dressing up as her and taking her old alias to "honor" her. Yuck!

In that case she hasn't being written correctly from Uncanny X-men #199 onwards. Which according to you would mean Scott Lobdell is the only one who's written her correctly since then.

Rachel has practically always turned into a kid around Scott and Jean.

Although Rachel has lost her entire family. Her actual family, not alternate timeline versions of them.

[kate-pryde]

Well, what bothers me about it is that Rachel has lately been written as often dependent on Cyclops, like how she needs his support to get over Jean's death or something, yet he just turns to Emma. I like how she just blew off Jean in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14. If Rachel was written correctly, she wouldn't be idolizing Jean and dressing up as her and taking her old alias to "honor" her. Yuck!

Well, Nathan did the same thing when Scott “died”. He joined the X-Men and tried to live up to his father’s legacy.

I think the situation with Rachel could be better explained, if they actually would add some continuity.

If Rachel felt guilty for wanting to have a normal life and stop having to save the world all the time, not telling Jean & Scott she was back, then maybe she’d feel partially to blame for Jean’s death. Or even thought she could have helped resolve Jean & Scott’s maritial problems before Scott had the telepathic affair.

That would be far more compelling than Ray being the whiny brat that can’t get over Scott being with the woman her mom hated. But, that deals with too much backstory that no one ever read, so they just write Ray as a 15 year old who hates her “wicked step-mom”.

That situation with Ray just makes Scott look bad. He’s got a second chance to make things right with his kid and he’s focused on making her like his new girlfriend.

But it isn't that much different than UXM Annual 14. Ray blasts off saying she's just going to ignore Jean & Scott and find her own family, and then in UXM 469 she tells Kurt and Betsy that they, and Kitty and Hank are the next best thing to a family. She's still totally ignoring Scott.

It's really up to Scott to be the adult and be there for his daughter. Even for one of his teammates.

[Daithi]

But it isn't that much different than UXM Annual 14. Ray blasts off saying she's just going to ignore Jean & Scott and find her own family, and then in UXM 469 she tells Kurt and Betsy that they, and Kitty and Hank are the next best thing to a family. She's still totally ignoring Scott.


Not really. She's called Scott "dad" a few times lately. Plus Scott was concerned about her in UXM 476. I mean she's known Psylocke for all of five minutes and she's family? I think she was talking more about her X-Men family.

[Omega Alpha]

Actually, in that annual, Rachel acts like that after Jean rejected her, scared because having a daughter from the future indicated that she had no choice, she would have to marry Scott, having children, live happily ever after, etc, and she would like to at least have a choice. If only she knew...:D But during Fatal Attractions, Jean apologized to Rachel, and they were fine after that.

And Scott and Rachel had some "family scenes" with Rachel in Grey's End and in Uncanny #469.

[kate-pryde]

Not really. She's called Scott "dad" a few times lately. Plus Scott was concerned about her in UXM 476. I mean she's known Psylocke for all of five minutes and she's family? I think she was talking more about her X-Men family.

But Scott added Rachel as an afterthought in 476. "If anything happens to either of them, Alex or Dad... or Rachel." Rachel's in far more danger than any of them, and she's essentially an afterthought.

I think Ray's called Scott Dad 4 times (to his face, not just referring to him as her father): X-Factor Annual 5, AoC&P 1, UXM 468 & 469. And Mark Millar likes tossing in her calling Scott Dad just to define their relationship. Claremont and Lobdell only had Ray calling her parents Mom & Dad in very specific circumstances. Ray made a big deal in Excalibur 75 about the fact that Jean let her call her mom. Ray hasn't really gotten to that point with Scott, except maybe in 469. But judging by Deadly Genesis, it doesn't seem like it.

The thing that irks me about 469 is that it seems like Scott finally having a father/daughter moment is contingent on her finally accepting Scott's relationship with Emma.

That's why I like Alex and Lorna's conversation in 478. It's not all about friggin' Emma. And finally it's being acknowledged what a jerk Scott has become.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

But Scott added Rachel as an afterthought in 476. "If anything happens to either of them, Alex or Dad... or Rachel." Rachel's in far more danger than any of them, and she's essentially an afterthought.



Yeah to Scott... If it was Jean or Kitty, she woulda been named first in that list. Scott isnt close to Rachel and thats ok....

[kate-pryde]

Yeah to Scott... If it was Jean or Kitty, she woulda been named first in that list. Scott isnt close to Rachel and thats ok....

It just reflects badly on Scott. It's not like he's that close to his dad or worries about if his dad is okay. But it's an afterthought if his daughter is going to the people who want to kill her?

It's totally ignoring Scott's progress in AoC&P. He clearly wanted to make things right with Rachel, and he has his chance to have a 2nd chance being the father he should have been in the first place and to fulfill his promise to Jean, and he basically ignores Rachel.

It's like any time any character makes progress, it's completely ignored.