View Full Version : Should Steve Rogers be stripped of Being Captain America and give it to Another??
Markavian
08-30-2006, 06:38 AM
Face it Captain America has lost it.This is a man who once would Negothiate with the Shi'ar for example without going bat poop and attacking everyone he didnt agree with. He Used Reason and Compassion as well as Courage and Combat ability to guide him in his adventures but in the last few years he flies off the handle as much as wolverine.Good thing his Sheild doesnt have a razor edge I say!! He is becomming like any Radical "My cause is just !! I must continue even if people are hurt!!" Whats next for Cap Bombing police Stations and Court Houses ? Will he start disputing elections if Pro SHRA Politicans Win? I think its time someone Like John Walker who surprisingly has a cooler head than Steve Rogers but is just as rough and will better fill the Boots of Captain America without going Concieted Pychotic like Rogers has.Whats all of yours opinions? Please try and keep it Polite towards all other Members ok? This is a debate about a Fictional character and events. No Need to call anyone facists or Communists unless you speak of someone in the comics ,But feel free to compare real world celeberties or historical figures just not members :)
Mr.Musgrave
08-30-2006, 07:00 AM
Let me ask you this: If Cap was using these very same tactics against another "enemy" nation would you have a problem with it? What Cap is doing now is no different than the tactics he used against the Nazis, which is exactly who the MU government is emulating.
Alan2099
08-30-2006, 07:06 AM
Markavian, please use the neter key in the future. It makes your posts easier to read.
As for the topic, NO. You're never going to find another guy that can fill Captain America's boots like Steve. Especially U.S. Agent, who's about as level headed as the Hulk, and let's not forget, the guy has a history of metal illness and just recently was "just following Government orders" that came directly from the Red Skull without even bothering to question it.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:08 AM
Let me ask you this: If Cap was using these very same tactics against another "enemy" nation would you have a problem with it? What Cap is doing now is no different than the tactics he used against the Nazis, which is exactly who the MU government is emulating.
The US Goverment and SHEILD The SHRA and Iron Mans Actions are to a very real event: Stamford.Its not like they are doing this for no reason at all.Stamford showed the need to change how Superpowrered Vigilantes operate in the USA. Why souldnt they be licensed and trained if they are going to be arresting people and fighting? We Register Cars and Drivers must have Licenses . And thats of People who wont be using Violence. To e a Private Eye or a Police officer you must pass muster and have some sorts of training, so why not superheroes going through something simular? And as for Caps actions There were a lot of avenues open to him beyond going the Terrorist route. Court challenges and Political discussions..He chose violence thus losing all credibility.:)
Subotai
08-30-2006, 07:10 AM
IIRC they already tried to replace Cap, it didn't turn out too well.
The reason he throws his shield is because it doesn't have a razor's edge. He can use it non-lethally.
But Cap = Logan in terms of temperament - that's pure hyperbole.
John Walker has a cooler head than Rogers? Um, sorry, no. He was a liar and a killer. I have no idea where you get the idea he's more mentally stable than Rogers. The only reason I can think of that you would like him is that he's better cut out to be a government stooge.
Conceited psychotic - I'll have to look that one up in the DSM-IV.
Alan2099
08-30-2006, 07:11 AM
SHEILD traininging ceratinly gurantees they'll be more effective doesn't it? I mean, just look at how well SHIELD did when it went to get Nitro.
Oh.
wait.
They all got themselves killed quicker than the New Warriors did.
And unlike the Warriors they knew exactly what they were up against at the time.
Mr.Musgrave
08-30-2006, 07:13 AM
The US Goverment and SHEILD The SHRA and Iron Mans Actions are to a very real event: Stamford.Its not like they are doing this for no reason at all.Stamford showed the need to change how Superpowrered Vigilantes operate in the USA. Why souldnt they be licensed and trained if they are going to be arresting people and fighting? We Register Cars and Drivers must have Licenses . And thats of People who wont be using Violence. To e a Private Eye or a Police officer you must pass muster and have some sorts of training, so why not superheroes going through something simular? And as for Caps actions There were a lot of avenues open to him beyond going the Terrorist route. Court challenges and Political discussions..He chose violence thus losing all credibility.:)
Could someone translate this please? :confused:
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:15 AM
Markavian, please use the neter key in the future. It makes your posts easier to read.
As for the topic, NO. You're never going to find another guy that can fill Captain America's boots like Steve. Especially U.S. Agent, who's about as level headed as the Hulk, and let's not forget, the guy has a history of metal illness and just recently was "just following Government orders" that came directly from the Red Skull without even bothering to question it.
Captain America is acting more like a two bit 60's radical like the Weathermen than the American Icon I grew up admiring. He would never have attacked Peace officers or caused a Pile up by NYPD cars in bthe past nor dragged minors into combat..He has betrayed his own ideals by bringing children into danger. John Walker is a good man and has proven he can stand up for even Americans he doeesnt agree with : Such as when he went after the Watchdogs who were burning down Abortnion Clinics and Adult Bookstores.Thats the True Measure of Captain America .
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:19 AM
Could someone translate this please? :confused:
The MU USA's goverments Actions with the Nazis. They are reacting to a VERY real event in which 600+ Innocent People died. The Goverment has not only the Right to pass the SHRA and try to change how Superheroes operate but the Responsibility to do so.:)
Alpow
08-30-2006, 07:21 AM
Training and licensing is one thing, handing over identities to an organisation which is corrupt and frequently infiltrated by villains (Shield or the US government, take your pick) and forced conscription for life (i.e. servitude, it only differs from slavery because heroes children won't automatically also be forced although it is highly likely given that many of their traits can be passed on by genetics) is quite another.
Cap has been forced into his current position by the uncompromising actions and ill thought out knee jerk borne legislation created by his government and its agents.
If they have sought a compromise position before hand this wouldn’t have happened but the US administration is anti-hero and has juts been looking for an reason to bring them to heel and make them tools of government policy, they undertook this legislation in bad faith and they are now reaping what they sowed.
Cap is simply doing what he has always done, opposing those who seeking to crush freedom and harm his friends, his country and (eventually) his planet.
GozertheGozarian
08-30-2006, 07:22 AM
Such as when he went after the Watchdogs who were burning down Abortnion Clinics and Adult Bookstores.
You mean the same Watchdogs he hired to make himself look good? Walker was working with them most of the time, not against.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:22 AM
SHEILD traininging ceratinly gurantees they'll be more effective doesn't it? I mean, just look at how well SHIELD did when it went to get Nitro.
Oh.
wait.
They all got themselves killed quicker than the New Warriors did.
And unlike the Warriors they knew exactly what they were up against at the time.
a First Step..and At least the SHEILD Agents didnt take hundreds of innocents with them ! Also it will take time to intergrate and train Heroes ..They will learn to evacuate areas if they have time of non combatants ...and the New warriors surely had that but were too eager to beat "Who wants to be a Superhero ?" In the ratings.:rolleyes:
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:24 AM
You mean the same Watchdogs he hired to make himself look good? Walker was working with them most of the time, not against.
He fought a Radical KKK like group the Red Skull was using to divide and undermine America.:)
Mr.Musgrave
08-30-2006, 07:29 AM
The MU USA's goverments Actions with the Nazis. They are reacting to a VERY real event in which 600+ Innocent People died. The Goverment has not only the Right to pass the SHRA and try to change how Superheroes operate but the Responsibility to do so.:)
No one ever has the right to register or incarcerate anyone based on who they are or what they MIGHT do in the future. It's called profiling and it's illegal in every way. It's the exact type of tactic the Nazis would use.
Alan2099
08-30-2006, 07:30 AM
There First Step is "let the villians know we're after them and let the entire first strike force get killed"?
Yeah. I want those guys running the super hero department.
GozertheGozarian
08-30-2006, 07:30 AM
He fought a Radical KKK like group the Red Skull was using to divide and undermine America.:)
Which Walker knew about, and helped organize some of the attacks, so as to thwart them as Captain America, and thus, make himself look good in the eyes of the public.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:34 AM
Training and licensing is one thing, handing over identities to an organisation which is corrupt and frequently infiltrated by villains (Shield or the US government, take your pick) and forced conscription for life (i.e. servitude, it only differs from slavery because heroes children won't automatically also be forced although it is highly likely given that many of their traits can be passed on by genetics) is quite another.
Cap has been forced into his current position by the uncompromising actions and ill thought out knee jerk borne legislation created by his government and its agents.
If they have sought a compromise position before hand this wouldn’t have happened but the US administration is anti-hero and has juts been looking for an reason to bring them to heel and make them tools of government policy, they undertook this legislation in bad faith and they are now reaping what they sowed.
Cap is simply doing what he has always done, opposing those who seeking to crush freedom and harm his friends, his country and (eventually) his planet. Cap has lost it. He has chosen violence over reason and political discourse. There are ways to get the SHRA changed and amended through the System :Courts or Congress. Or he could have Accepted the Position Hill offered him and better shaped Enforcement from within SHEILD. Granted Hill was heavy handed in how she reacted and dont agree with that. But Cap is supposed to be a Political thinker to a degree as well. He should have had thought it through rather than spit out like he did. e could have said Let me think about it or Said ll right will but on my terms. And I cant understand Why on Gods Earth he Didnt go to his fellow Avengers asking for help after Hill almost Ambused him..Though he has been a SHEILD and OSS opeartive in the Past and Under law The Goverment has a LOT of Leway in keeping Operatives with laqssufied nformation on a tight Lease.But had he gone to the Avengers Hill and SHEILD I believe would have faced a Unified Team out to protect Rogers and his rights..
maybe some sort of deal could have been made.Alas He didnt so now we have a great comic series to enjoy however:)
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:36 AM
Which Walker knew about, and helped organize some of the attacks, so as to thwart them as Captain America, and thus, make himself look good in the eyes of the public.
His Manager hired when Walker was Superpatriot. The Watch Dogs were entirily different.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:37 AM
No one ever has the right to register or incarcerate anyone based on who they are or what they MIGHT do in the future. It's called profiling and it's illegal in every way. It's the exact type of tactic the Nazis would use.
Lets throw out all the gun control laws :D
Mr.Musgrave
08-30-2006, 07:43 AM
Lets throw out all the gun control laws :D
:rolleyes:
Besides the fact that you're trying (and failing) to avoid my comment about the profiling laws you're also talking to someone who's very aware of gun control legislation in this country.
Explain to us all, in your infinite wisdom, how gun control laws that are only aimed at law abiding citizens stop criminals from commiting crimes. Oh, wait, they don't. Why? Because CRIMINALS DON'T CARE ABOUT THE LAW AND THAT'S WHY THEY ARE CRIMINALS!
I swear.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:46 AM
There First Step is "let the villians know we're after them and let the entire first strike force get killed"?
Yeah. I want those guys running the super hero department.
On a new iniative are often bad first steps. you learn from your mistakes . Stamford proved things have to change but actually we all know it goes further and deeper than that.. Age of Apocaplyse ..House of M ..Infinity Gaunlet ...The Heroes are hiding too much from the public and the Goverment which is the elected body that represents the People and their will. The Goverment has proven its self trustworhty in the past despite a few episodes. They held the Cosmic cube without misusing it,The Yellow Claws ultimate anniliator, Knowledge of the Beyonder in Secret War 2 .... Is there a Chance someome in the goverment may misuse a Heroes Secrets ? Sure but if they expose a Heroes ID under the SHRA its a Felony..Before it one could scream to the Heavens who a Hero was with little if any legal repercusions. Now at least there is a degree of protrection.:)
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:51 AM
:rolleyes:
Besides the fact that you're trying (and failing) to avoid my comment about the profiling laws you're also talking to someone who's very aware of gun control legislation in this country.
Explain to us all, in your infinite wisdom, how gun control laws that are only aimed at law abiding citizens stop criminals from commiting crimes. Oh, wait, they don't. Why? Because CRIMINALS DON'T CARE ABOUT THE LAW AND THAT'S WHY THEY ARE CRIMINALS!
I swear.
Used AGAINST Gun Registration : Criminals dont care about the law so why should anyone who isnt a criminal have to register in anyway? Thats the Same argument against SHRA that Heroes havent commited a crime dso why should they register ..That its "Profiling" and its ok to Profile Gun owners ?:p
Alpow
08-30-2006, 07:55 AM
Cap has lost it. He has chosen violence over reason and political discourse. There are ways to get the SHRA changed and amended through the System :Courts or Congress.
The law was passed in a rubber stamp method within a couple of weeks, there was no political discussion at all by the looks of it and changing it though the courts would have taken too long, Cap would have already been forced to compromise his ethic ad attack his friends or go to the Negative zone before a court decision could ever have occurred.
Then their is always the possibility that the courts wouldn't stop it (they let slavery continue for almost a century after the English courts which threw it out the first time a case came up based upon Magna Carta alone, a clear example of the US courts system either being faulty or courts in general bowing to political pressure) by which time the US government has already got it's slave legions ready to start causing problem abroad and a dangerous precedent for civil liberties has been set (if they can draft you in because you are blue and can jump in a nice way why not because you are particularly intelligent or have a physique that means you would be a perfect soldier).
Or he could have Accepted the Position Hill offered him and better shaped Enforcement from within SHEILD.
People who attempt to change things from the inside often find themselves change on the inside by the moral compromises they are forced to make.
At the end of the day he would have still been taking orders from Shield and would have been sent to the Negative zone the first time he didn't agree to invade Iran or uproot his life and move to Flordia because it's really important in the next election.
Granted Hill was heavy handed in how she reacted and dont agree with that. But Cap is supposed to be a Political thinker to a degree as well. He should have had thought it through rather than spit out like he did. e could have said Let me think about it or Said ll right will but on my terms.
You mean he should have lied and then refused to bring in his friends at a later date, taking him right back to where he is anyway.
And I cant understand Why on Gods Earth he Didnt go to his fellow Avengers asking for help after Hill almost Ambused him..Though he has been a SHEILD and OSS opeartive in the Past and Under law The Goverment has a LOT of Leway in keeping Operatives with laqssufied nformation on a tight Lease.But had he gone to the Avengers Hill and SHEILD I believe would have faced a Unified Team out to protect Rogers and his rights..
No, they wouldn't, Stark is too arrogant to believe anybody else has a valid viewpoint and Peter is blinded by loyalty to a new father figure.
Spiderwoman takes orders from Fury and Wolverine is interested in actually getting the guy responsible (which Stark has already frowned upon, apparently getting Nitro who murdered 600 people is less important than capturing a war hero and imprisoning him in the negative zone) and who knows Sentry thinks.
Luke Cage would have made exactly the decision he did.
maybe some sort of deal could have been made.Alas He didnt so now we have a great comic series to enjoy however:)
I don't think a deal could have been made, the US government has been looking for a way to bring the heroes down and this was just good an opportunity.
Congress would rubber stamp anything they wanted because of Stamford so it was golden opportunity to railroad people and it was seized with glee.
Aztec Ace
08-30-2006, 07:58 AM
Humm let's talk about Stamford for a moment.
Who is responsible for the deaths there?
-Nitro.
Were the heroes who fought him there aware of Nitro's capabilities?
-Maybe but the capabilities that Nitro in fact showed was way out of proportion to any seen by him before. And it has been shown in the Wolverine series that Nitro has been given some drug that ramps up his powers to a great degree.
Is Stamford a REAL event?
-No. It's something from a comic book!
Do heroes make mistakes?
-Sure all the time. It wouldn't be very interesting if your Heroes were perfect all the time would it.
Would you like to see the Marvel Universe changed with all Heroes controlled and regulated by a United States Governement and by SHEILD.
-Heck no!
Alpow
08-30-2006, 07:59 AM
Used AGAINST Gun Registration : Criminals dont care about the law so why should anyone who isnt a criminal have to register in anyway? Thats the Same argument against SHRA that Heroes havent commited a crime dso why should they register ..That its "Profiling" and its ok to Profile Gun owners ?:p
People have a choice whether to buy a gun or not, they don't have a choice whether they are bitten by a radioactive spider, born a mutant, irradiated by a Gamma bomb or any of the other dozen accidental ways super heroes come into being.
Mr.Musgrave
08-30-2006, 08:02 AM
Used AGAINST Gun Registration : Criminals dont care about the law so why should anyone who isnt a criminal have to register in anyway? Thats the Same argument against SHRA that Heroes havent commited a crime dso why should they register ..That its "Profiling" and its ok to Profile Gun owners ?:p
What are you TALKING about? It's like trying to read a seizure! What good are laws that only effect the LAWFUL CITIZENS!?
Markavian
08-30-2006, 08:03 AM
The law was passed in a rubber stamp method within a couple of weeks, there was no political discussion at all by the looks of it and changing it though the courts would have taken too long, Cap would have already been forced to compromise his ethic ad attack his friends or go to the Negative zone before a court decision could ever have occurred.
Then their is always the possibility that the courts wouldn't stop it (they let slavery continue for almost a century after the English courts which threw it out the first time a case came up based upon Magna Carta alone, a clear example of the US courts system either being faulty or courts in general bowing to political pressure) by which time the US government has already got it's slave legions ready to start causing problem abroad and a dangerous precedent for civil liberties has been set (if they can draft you in because you are blue and can jump in a nice way why not because you are particularly intelligent or have a physique that means you would be a perfect soldier).
People who attempt to change things from the inside often find themselves change on the inside by the moral compromises they are forced to make.
At the end of the day he would have still been taking orders from Shield and would have been sent to the Negative zone the first time he didn't agree to invade Iran or uproot his life and move to Flordia because it's really important in the next election.
You mean he should have lied and then refused to bring in his friends at a later date, taking him right back to where he is anyway.
No, they wouldn't, Stark is too arrogant to believe anybody else has a valid viewpoint and Peter is blinded by loyalty to a new father figure.
Spiderwoman takes orders from Fury and Wolverine is interested in actually getting the guy responsible (which Stark has already frowned upon, apparently getting Nitro who murdered 600 people is less important than capturing a war hero and imprisoning him in the negative zone) and who knows Sentry thinks.
Luke Cage would have made exactly the decision he did.
I don't think a deal could have been made, the US government has been looking for a way to bring the heroes down and this was just good an opportunity.
Congress would rubber stamp anything they wanted because of Stamford so it was golden opportunity to railroad people and it was seized with glee.
Is NOT the Bad Guys in Civil war. Nitro and the New Warriors are. Though Cap and his Cult followrers and Children he is exploiting are rapidly heading that way.
The Goverment responded to a Huge disaster . To say they "Rubber stamped" Anything is a bit of a reach,The SHRA may be ammended at a later date but if Tony hadnt been pushing as hard as he has it would be a lot more draconian than it is from what I have read.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 08:12 AM
:( What are you TALKING about? It's like trying to read a seizure! What good are laws that only effect the LAWFUL CITIZENS!?
On all Superhumans will be getting a LOT Tighter in the MU from All of this I predict. The Supposedly Reformed Zemo is sucking all the Supervillans he can off the streets . We'll see how well that works in the end. I think 42 is a rehabilitation and training area for the Non Registered Heroes as well as an Area to detain them while trials are being set up. I think unregistered Heroes to get Parole or release will have to undergo Training and certification and sign agreements before they are released back into society .Much like some states require Criminals to get GED's or Certification in a Trade skill before being released.It may not work but its intentions are in the right place: To help the Renagades to better serve and intergrate into society..It may fail..It may blow up in their faces But they are TRYING! If something isnt changed the MU is heading for a holocaust in a very few years if there isnt a course correction .:(
Francis
08-30-2006, 08:16 AM
I couldn't agree more that Steve Rogers should be stripped of being Captain America. It should assuredly be given to another - either USAgent or Nuke. Captain America is currently a rebel and therefore can't be Captain America - but USAgent and Nuke both fit the current government of America's system quite well.
Ultimately, I am pro the idea of registration. But with demonstrable breaches of Habeas Corpus (involuntary protective custody), Due Process (well, that really gets trampled throughout the , Presumption of Innocence (multiple examples - just read Deadpool for supposedly acceptable behaviour from enforcers), and demonstrable Cruel and Unusual Punishments (the Negative Zone), and a potential mandatory draft of anyone holding the powers (and all this is within a very short space of time) which can both be implimented from SHIELD and by the Secretary of Defence (formerly Red Skull) without any form of checks and balances, I believe that USAgent and possibly Nuke better fit the America that impliments such a system than Steve Rogers does.
Aztec Ace
08-30-2006, 08:16 AM
If something isnt changed the MU is heading for a holocaust in a very few years if there isnt a course correction .:(
I have a funny feeling that the Registration Act will in fact be a contributing factor for any supposed 'holocaust' in MU's future.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 08:17 AM
Humm let's talk about Stamford for a moment.
Who is responsible for the deaths there?
-Nitro.
Were the heroes who fought him there aware of Nitro's capabilities?
-Maybe but the capabilities that Nitro in fact showed was way out of proportion to any seen by him before. And it has been shown in the Wolverine series that Nitro has been given some drug that ramps up his powers to a great degree.
Is Stamford a REAL event?
-No. It's something from a comic book!
Do heroes make mistakes?
-Sure all the time. It wouldn't be very interesting if your Heroes were perfect all the time would it.
Would you like to see the Marvel Universe changed with all Heroes controlled and regulated by a United States Governement and by SHEILD.
-Heck no!
It all happened in a fantasy world. However Marvel has always prided itself on making the MU a world of realistic reactions to events.The US Goverment of the Real World would have done something a LOT stricter than the SHRA Long ago if we had Superhumans in our world. Too many People are getting Killed because of Fools like Speedball ..Too many Hurt and killed because of brute like the Hulk..Something has to give...........And its long overdue.:)
The US Goverment and SHEILD The SHRA and Iron Mans Actions are to a very real event: Stamford.Its not like they are doing this for no reason at all.Stamford showed the need to change how Superpowrered Vigilantes operate in the USA. Why souldnt they be licensed and trained if they are going to be arresting people and fighting? We Register Cars and Drivers must have Licenses . And thats of People who wont be using Violence. To e a Private Eye or a Police officer you must pass muster and have some sorts of training, so why not superheroes going through something simular? And as for Caps actions There were a lot of avenues open to him beyond going the Terrorist route. Court challenges and Political discussions..He chose violence thus losing all credibility.:)
I've argued this before... I've seen how untrained heroes operate in Stanford. I've seen how Hill's SHIELD operates in the Savage Land. The end results are supprisingly similiar (ie innocent people being murdered), with the biggest difference being Hill causes the explosion whereas the suppossedly untrained heroes did not.
Whether or not a person with a lack of respect for human life can bring about a scenario where people are safer is debatable... but her track record leaves room for skepticism. These are the doubts that come about when even a good idea is enacted by the wrong people for the wrong reasons. And that is why I believe in the end the registration, as it is NOW, won't survive. Not as it is.
Lets throw out all the gun control laws :D
If Gun Control laws had a backdoor draft attatched to them, where the government could send gun owners on missions anytime they wanted, I'd wager people would rebell against gun control laws too.
Your Imaginary Pal
08-30-2006, 08:23 AM
For the countless times these heroes stopped national and global disasters for the most part anonymously, is it justified that one incident strike away their civil rights and rights to privacy. If it is clear that these people are working for the greater good, why arrest them because they refuse to register for a law that was pretty much passed over night.
When Agent Hill was going to take down Cap, Superhero registration was just a bill(sitting here on Capitol Hill.) She had about 10 armed guards ready to take him down if he said he wouldn't sign. He said no, Hill called the dogs on him.
He defended himself and is continuing to stand up for his principles. He wasn't flying off the handle, they were ready to blast him into oblivion. He could have savagely killed all of the agents and blown up the hellicarrier. But he inflicted the minmal injuries to escape and caused as little damage to gov't property as possible.
But if America Wants a voiceless puppet who will follow any law they pass no matter how much it restricts the people's rights and liberties, they should get someone other than Steve Rogers to be Captain America.
I have a funny feeling that the Registration Act will in fact be a contributing factor for any supposed 'holocaust' in MU's future.
I think it could very well be one avenue to Days of Future Past.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 08:24 AM
[QUOTE=XPac]I've argued this before... I've seen how untrained heroes operate in Stanford. I've seen how Hill's SHIELD operates in the Savage Land. The end results are supprisingly similiar (ie innocent people being murdered), with the biggest difference being Hill causes the explosion whereas the suppossedly untrained heroes did not.
.[/QUOTE/] So you Agree then that Speedball is Criminally negiligent and Culpible? Excellent I knew I could bring you around!!:D
Alpow
08-30-2006, 08:25 AM
The Goverment responded to a Huge disaster . To say they "Rubber stamped" Anything is a bit of a reach,
Is it?
After September the 11th, Congress rubber stamped the Patriot act (and I make no judgement upon the validity of that act) which has come to be seen a lot more controversial, compare the votes in Senate to initially pass it (only one opposed who was vilified at the time) compared to when it was recently renewed with 11 times as many opposed.
The SHRA may be ammended at a later date but if Tony hadnt been pushing as hard as he has it would be a lot more draconian than it is from what I have read.
Tony "Oracle at Delphi" Stark said that the bill would become harsher (or couldn’t be softened) if the Heroes didn’t pre-emptively jump on board to his illuminati friends; they didn't and so one must assume that it did become harsher, unless we question the mystic musings of Tony "Cassandra" Stark.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 08:27 AM
If Gun Control laws had a backdoor draft attatched to them, where the government could send gun owners on missions anytime they wanted, I'd wager people would rebell against gun control laws too.
DOES Mention to Create a Milita presumibly to be used in time of War or emergancy, And the Draft IS Legal and it may be discrimtory by sex Race or skill or ability Level as the supreme Court ruled 9-0 in 1980.
[QUOTE=XPac]I've argued this before... I've seen how untrained heroes operate in Stanford. I've seen how Hill's SHIELD operates in the Savage Land. The end results are supprisingly similiar (ie innocent people being murdered), with the biggest difference being Hill causes the explosion whereas the suppossedly untrained heroes did not.
.[/QUOTE/] So you Agree then that Speedball is Criminally negiligent and Culpible? Excellent I knew I could bring you around!!:D
I'll agree that he should be given due process and go to court to determine whether or not he is. I don't decide whether or not he is, but neither should SHIELD or the public. Speedball is another example of where a good idea has been twisted into this abomination.
Even if Speedball outright CAUSED the explosion, he'd legally deserved to be treated better than that. And if/when Hill is charged for murder and put on trial for the murder she committed, I hope she likewise gets better treatment than Speedball does.
DOES Mention to Create a Milita presumibly to be used in time of War or emergancy, And the Draft IS Legal and it may be discrimtory by sex Race or skill or ability Level as the supreme Court ruled 9-0 in 1980.
The idea of the second amendment is actually the right for states to form militas AGAINST the federal government. Because the US a country that was formed against tyranny, it was one of the provisions that was put in to ensure the people could rise up against the federal government of it needed to.
If you are a PRO registration guy trying to argue against what Cap is doing, then you probably don't wanna use the second amendment. What Cap is doing now is exactly what they had in mind when it was created.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 08:46 AM
[QUOTE=Markavian]
I'll agree that he should be given due process and go to court to determine whether or not he is. I don't decide whether or not he is, but neither should SHIELD or the public. Speedballs is another example of where a good idea has been twisted into this abomination.
Even if Speedballs outright CAUSED the explosion, he'd legally deserved to be treated better than that. And if/when Hill is charged for murder and put on trial for the murder she committed, I hope she likewise gets better treatment than Speedballs does.
Like Hills are almost never charged as a Crime because they aren't Crimes. Its called Collateral damage for a reason..Most Commanders try to avoid it but it sometimes cant be helped.Like in Philadelphia where the Mayor ordered a nest of Radicals removed from a home they were holed up in . The SWAT Team used an Explosive Device to try to end the stand off with a Group of uncompromising Radicals.here was a fire and explosion which devastated the entire block. 9 were killed and hundreds were homeless YET the Polices were not charged because they were trying to enforce the Law and Lawful orders. If things go South when you are doing so you can say At least we tried to do it Legally .. Steve Rogers cant make that same Argument. He declined to obey the law or try any legal avenues. Thus he isn't fit to be Captain America..A Similar thing occurred when the Vision tried to take over the world. It took years to regain the Federal Governments trust.
[QUOTE=XPac]
Like Hills are almost never charged as a Crime because they aren't Crimes. Its called Collateral damage for a reason..Most Commanders try to avoid it but it sometimes cant be helped.Like in Philadelphia where the Mayor ordered a nest of Radicals removed from a home they were holed up in . The SWAT Team used an Explosive Device to try to end the stand off with a Group of uncompromising Radicals.here was a fire and explosion which devastated the entire block. 9 were killed and hundreds were homeless YET the Polices were not charged because they were trying to enforce the Law and Lawful orders. If things go South when you are doing so you can say At least we tried to do it Legally .. Steve Rogers cant make that same Argument. He declined to obey the law or try any legal avenues. Thus he isn't fit to be Captain America..A Similar thing occurred when the Vision tried to take over the world. It took years to regain the Federal Governments trust.
That's the thing... it COULD be helped.
There was no need for bombing of that magnitude against a small handful of suppossedly Rogue SHIELD agents. I will agree there are occasion that bombing is necessary... look at this situation and ask yourself if honestly it was necessary?
If she wasn't competent enough to handle this situation without murdering EVERYONE involved then she should have accepted the Avengers offer to help. They would have wrapped it up in 5 minutes flat with likely most of the Savage Land inhabitants reascued and plenty of prisoners to interrogate.
But Hill wasn't interested in that. Frankly I think the only reason to do what she did was to destroy any evidence.
Gregg Helmberger
08-30-2006, 08:52 AM
If the government demands unquestioning adherence to authority, blinkered submission to injustice, and an absolute lack of higher brain function in Captain America, then Steve Rogers has never been their guy and he's not going to be their guy in the future. They should strip him of the title of Captain America and give it to a fascist oaf like John Walker, who would no more think of questioning an unconstitutional order than he would of flapping his arms and flying to Cleveland. If they want a stooge to make a mockery of everything Captain America, and America itself, stands for, then absolutely, Walker's your man and Rogers isn't.
They'll probably want to let Rogers keep the shield, though; he tends to react badly when someone tries to take it away...
I have one problem with Cap solving this "politically".
We know Cap is going to be caught soon. Thats the only real way we are gonna find out about 42, and its the only real way for Cap to truly show his cause. Otherwise yes, he could be seen as a terrorist. But by being captured and taken in, he then becomes more of a hero to the cause. Think of something like Nelson Mandalla.
Now if Cap had just said No to Hill in the beginning, and didn't fight, but was taken in - he would be put straight into prison and then to the other dimension prison along with every other superhuman. And don't say he wouldn't because "its captian america". Look at speedball - Sure he is the most hated man in america, but that is exactly why if anyone, speedball would get a very public trial. Everyone knows about him and yet they just wisk him away to Ultra-Prison. Same thing would've happened to cap.
If he had done that, there would BE no voice of the opposing faction. Cap first needed to get the word out there of what is happening, and form a group of like-minded people. He had the power to do so, and remember his PRIMARY cause is still capturing bad guys, not attacking the pro-registeration heroes. He doesn't deliberately go after tony or pro people. He goes after the bad guys and freeing his teammates that were captured.
But, and as I think cap knows, he now must be arrested for him to further his cause more. He just had to go through a few steps to insure his voice was heard.
Francis
08-30-2006, 08:58 AM
Like Hills are almost never charged as a Crime because they aren't Crimes. Its called Collateral damage for a reason..Most Commanders try to avoid it but it sometimes cant be helped.Like in Philadelphia where the Mayor ordered a nest of Radicals removed from a home they were holed up in . The SWAT Team used an Explosive Device to try to end the stand off with a Group of uncompromising Radicals.here was a fire and explosion which devastated the entire block. 9 were killed and hundreds were homeless YET the Polices were not charged because they were trying to enforce the Law and Lawful orders. If things go South when you are doing so you can say At least we tried to do it Legally .. Steve Rogers cant make that same Argument. He declined to obey the law or try any legal avenues. Thus he isn't fit to be Captain America..A Similar thing occurred when the Vision tried to take over the world. It took years to regain the Federal Governments trust.
Please confirm to make sure I have understood what you are saying.
War crimes are not crimes because colateral damage happens - even if the crimes are genocidal and against effective noncombattants (see Hill for your example)
Speedball is criminally negligent because the IED went off - but if trained police officers had had exactly the same result they wouldn't be criminally negligent.
Steve Rogers isn't fit to be Captain America because he realised that after riflemen were brought in, there was no point discussing the fait accompli - and as Captain America he should have enforced it even if he considered it to be highly unjust legislation with the enforcement undermining the rule of law and many principles the US holds (which I have already listed)
Calybos
08-30-2006, 09:12 AM
I think Imaginary Pal and Gregg Helmberger have summed up the situation quite well.
if America Wants a voiceless puppet who will follow any law they pass no matter how much it restricts the people's rights and liberties, they should get someone other than Steve Rogers to be Captain America.
If the government demands unquestioning adherence to authority, blinkered submission to injustice, and an absolute lack of higher brain function in Captain America, then Steve Rogers has never been their guy and he's not going to be their guy in the future. They should strip him of the title of Captain America and give it to a fascist oaf like John Walker, who would no more think of questioning an unconstitutional order than he would of flapping his arms and flying to Cleveland. If they want a stooge to make a mockery of everything Captain America, and America itself, stands for, then absolutely, Walker's your man and Rogers isn't.
The U.S. government of the Marvel Universe certainly has the right to give the title of "Captain America" to someone else. And given their current fascist leanings and Cap's inconvenient refusal to cooperate, they'd probably find it preferable to do so. Heck, they've done it before.
But we all know who will always be the REAL champion of the American Dream, and it has nothing to do with the person the current regime chooses to grant a license to.
Gregg Helmberger
08-30-2006, 09:16 AM
The U.S. government of the Marvel Universe certainly has the right to give the title of "Captain America" to someone else. And given their current fascist leanings and Cap's inconvenient refusal to cooperate, they'd probably find it preferable to do so. Heck, they've done it before.
But we all know who will always be the REAL champion of the American Dream, and it has nothing to do with the person the current regime chooses to grant a license to.
Exactly. If the uniform and title of Captain America are the government's property, then the government can reassign them at will, for any reason or no reason at all. But John Walker is never going to be anything more than a distorted, sickening reflection of Steve Rogers no matter what we call them. Steve Rogers on his worst day is a better man and a better American than Walker is on his best, and a change of costume won't alter that in the slightest.
Emperor Reagan
08-30-2006, 09:24 AM
Like Hills are almost never charged as a Crime because they aren't Crimes. Its called Collateral damage for a reason..Most Commanders try to avoid it but it sometimes cant be helped.Like in Philadelphia where the Mayor ordered a nest of Radicals removed from a home they were holed up in . The SWAT Team used an Explosive Device to try to end the stand off with a Group of uncompromising Radicals.here was a fire and explosion which devastated the entire block. 9 were killed and hundreds were homeless YET the Polices were not charged because they were trying to enforce the Law and Lawful orders.
Just to add another point, one of the complaints frequently leveled at police forces is that because their crimes are investigated internally and by the DA's office, there's a strong bias in favor of the cop's or police department's position. Things that are objectively criminal acts and violate the law and departmental policy may be given a pass because the process is not at all objective.
Jmacq1
08-30-2006, 09:27 AM
Exactly. If the uniform and title of Captain America are the government's property, then the government can reassign them at will, for any reason or no reason at all. But John Walker is never going to be anything more than a distorted, sickening reflection of Steve Rogers no matter what we call them. Steve Rogers on his worst day is a better man and a better American than Walker is on his best, and a change of costume won't alter that in the slightest.
Fortunately, the "Captain America" identity, shield and costume are -not- the government's to assign as they please anymore. If I recall correctly, after the debacle that was John Walker's stint as "Captain America", the Commission on Superhuman Affairs renounced any claim on Cap, and basically "gave" him "ownership" of the Captain America identity. I -may- be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.
Sure, the government could trot out some other person in the same outfit and try to make the public swallow that he's "Captain America". But most would likely know the difference.
John Walker should -not- be Captain America, ever again. Nor should any would-be government stooge. Captain America isn't about government, and there's a heck of a lot more to the United States than it's government, though some people seem to think that blind obedience to law and government is an ideal that all should strive for. That's certainly not something -I- consider an American ideal. Nor do I consider blatant violations of Constitutional law to be an "American Ideal," particularly when they discriminate against a minority just so a majority can sleep better at night.
Walker is perfectly OK as USAgent or whatever other identity he tries to go by, but he's no Captain America. As Nick Fury said best in the "Secret Wars Files" -- "That's a blessing and a curse that only one man can bear."
And that man is Steve Rogers.
PS: Besides, it's not Cap's fault he's being more thuggish than usual. Mark Millar, Tom Brevoort, and the rest of Marvel's editorial staff can claim pretty much full credit for that one. Crying shame that people are likely to stop reading Iron Man -and- Cap titles because of this mess. Though I still hold out hope that Brubaker's tie-ins can make Captain America's reasoning a bit more clear.
Fortunately, the "Captain America" identity, shield and costume are -not- the government's to assign as they please anymore. If I recall correctly, after the debacle that was John Walker's stint as "Captain America", the Commission on Superhuman Affairs renounced any claim on Cap, and basically "gave" him "ownership" of the Captain America identity. I -may- be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.
Sure, the government could trot out some other person in the same outfit and try to make the public swallow that he's "Captain America". But most would likely know the difference.
John Walker should -not- be Captain America, ever again. Nor should any would-be government stooge. Captain America isn't about government, and there's a heck of a lot more to the United States than it's government, though some people seem to think that blind obedience to law and government is an ideal that all should strive for. That's certainly not something -I- consider an American ideal. Nor do I consider blatant violations of Constitutional law to be an "American Ideal," particularly when they discriminate against a minority just so a majority can sleep better at night.
Walker is perfectly OK as USAgent or whatever other identity he tries to go by, but he's no Captain America. As Nick Fury said best in the "Secret Wars Files" -- "That's a blessing and a curse that only one man can bear."
And that man is Steve Rogers.
PS: Besides, it's not Cap's fault he's being more thuggish than usual. Mark Millar, Tom Brevoort, and the rest of Marvel's editorial staff can claim pretty much full credit for that one. Crying shame that people are likely to stop reading Iron Man -and- Cap titles because of this mess. Though I still hold out hope that Brubaker's tie-ins can make Captain America's reasoning a bit more clear.
Didn't they make Walker Captian America again in the Invaders series? They didn't bother even trying to take it away from Steve this time... but they gave it to walker as well.
I didn't actually read the series (couldn't get past the art), so maybe he wasn't actually a Captian America and just wore the suit, I don't know.
Aztec Ace
08-30-2006, 09:36 AM
PS: Besides, it's not Cap's fault he's being more thuggish than usual. Mark Millar, Tom Brevoort, and the rest of Marvel's editorial staff can claim pretty much full credit for that one. Crying shame that people are likely to stop reading Iron Man -and- Cap titles because of this mess. Though I still hold out hope that Brubaker's tie-ins can make Captain America's reasoning a bit more clear.
QFT!
But that's the job of a comic book writer though. Screw over the Heroes and then make amemds and then screw them over again. It's a never ending cycle.
Gregg Helmberger
08-30-2006, 09:47 AM
Fortunately, the "Captain America" identity, shield and costume are -not- the government's to assign as they please anymore. If I recall correctly, after the debacle that was John Walker's stint as "Captain America", the Commission on Superhuman Affairs renounced any claim on Cap, and basically "gave" him "ownership" of the Captain America identity. I -may- be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.
Sure, the government could trot out some other person in the same outfit and try to make the public swallow that he's "Captain America". But most would likely know the difference.
John Walker should -not- be Captain America, ever again. Nor should any would-be government stooge. Captain America isn't about government, and there's a heck of a lot more to the United States than it's government, though some people seem to think that blind obedience to law and government is an ideal that all should strive for. That's certainly not something -I- consider an American ideal. Nor do I consider blatant violations of Constitutional law to be an "American Ideal," particularly when they discriminate against a minority just so a majority can sleep better at night.
Walker is perfectly OK as USAgent or whatever other identity he tries to go by, but he's no Captain America. As Nick Fury said best in the "Secret Wars Files" -- "That's a blessing and a curse that only one man can bear."
And that man is Steve Rogers.
PS: Besides, it's not Cap's fault he's being more thuggish than usual. Mark Millar, Tom Brevoort, and the rest of Marvel's editorial staff can claim pretty much full credit for that one. Crying shame that people are likely to stop reading Iron Man -and- Cap titles because of this mess. Though I still hold out hope that Brubaker's tie-ins can make Captain America's reasoning a bit more clear.
Ah. Well, in that case, the answer is obviously no, the government can't take the name away from Steve Rogers any more than they can make Cyclops or Hawkeye or Spider-Man stop calling themselves by those code names and assign the names to someone else.
Haunt
08-30-2006, 10:07 AM
Face it Captain America has lost it.This is a man who once would Negothiate with the Shi'ar for example without going bat poop and attacking everyone he didnt agree with. He Used Reason and Compassion as well as Courage and Combat ability to guide him in his adventures but in the last few years he flies off the handle as much as wolverine.Good thing his Sheild doesnt have a razor edge I say!! He is becomming like any Radical "My cause is just !! I must continue even if people are hurt!!" Whats next for Cap Bombing police Stations and Court Houses ? Will he start disputing elections if Pro SHRA Politicans Win? I think its time someone Like John Walker who surprisingly has a cooler head than Steve Rogers but is just as rough and will better fill the Boots of Captain America without going Concieted Pychotic like Rogers has.Whats all of yours opinions? Please try and keep it Polite towards all other Members ok? This is a debate about a Fictional character and events. No Need to call anyone facists or Communists unless you speak of someone in the comics ,But feel free to compare real world celeberties or historical figures just not members :)
yes, yes he should be stripped of the title. he's more terrorist than freedom fighter at this point.
Francis
08-30-2006, 10:16 AM
yes, yes he should be stripped of the title. he's more terrorist than freedom fighter at this point.
Please tell me when he has committed acts aimed deliberately at terrifying the entire civillian population rather than targetted at enemy combatants, people holding friendly combatants, and (normally armed) people preventing him rescuing his allies?
AFAIK, he has never struck at the civillian population with the intent of terrorising it - and therefore is still massively towards the freedom fighter end.
Gregg Helmberger
08-30-2006, 10:18 AM
yes, yes he should be stripped of the title. he's more terrorist than freedom fighter at this point.
May I presume you're using the word "terrorist" in its current bastardized meaning of "Anyone I don't agree with"?
scottv
08-30-2006, 10:19 AM
I am on the Anti side but I can see the reasons behind Cap being stripped of being Cap... Steve is attacking his own country no matter how you look at it. He is breaking the law even if you don't agree with that law you still have to obey it. So I am on the fence...
Gregg Helmberger
08-30-2006, 10:25 AM
He is breaking the law even if you don't agree with that law you still have to obey it.
Tell that to Ghandi and the millions of Indians who broke British laws in pursuit of freedom. Tell that to Martin Luther King, Jr. and black person who sat at a "Whites Only" lunch counter or rode in the front of a bus. Tell that to Harriet Tubman and everyone else who helped slaves escape their servitude. Heck, tell that to the American Founding Fathers who raised rebellion against British domination.
Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. It's the duty of every citizen to disobey unjust laws, even at peril of their position, property or lives. That's what it means to be free. If you don't fight for your freedom, someone comes along and takes it away from you; that's always happened and always will. It's no different here.
BigBoss
08-30-2006, 10:25 AM
I can see where your coming from topic creator. but I am pretty sure he has had enough of the whole, all right lets talk about this. I mean no one is willing to listen too him. A man has too fight for what he believes. those are my thoughts.
Jmacq1
08-30-2006, 10:26 AM
I am on the Anti side but I can see the reasons behind Cap being stripped of being Cap... Steve is attacking his own country no matter how you look at it. He is breaking the law even if you don't agree with that law you still have to obey it. So I am on the fence...
No, you -don't- have to obey the law if you don't agree with it....
You just have to be prepared to face the consequences when you don't. ;)
unkiedev
08-30-2006, 10:30 AM
Cap fights for me and all freedom loving comic book readers on this one.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 10:42 AM
I can see where your coming from topic creator. but I am pretty sure he has had enough of the whole, all right lets talk about this. I mean no one is willing to listen too him. A man has too fight for what he believes. those are my thoughts.
Ways to fight in our free society. Cap could have taken any number of courses but he chose violence. He is a famous and political savy man . He could have testified before the Senate and had far more impact than Tony Stark did.;)
Markavian
08-30-2006, 10:44 AM
May I presume you're using the word "terrorist" in its current bastardized meaning of "Anyone I don't agree with"?
Who throws a Law Enforcement Agent from a Moving Vehicale onto a busy NYC street and causes a Pileup and kidnapps Children to lead them into an insurection is indeed a Terrorist .
Gregg Helmberger
08-30-2006, 10:45 AM
Ways to fight in our free society. Cap could have taken any number of courses but he chose violence. He is a famous and political savy man . He could have testified before the Senate and had far more impact than Tony Stark did.;)
Except, of course, SHIELD has orders to shoot him on sight. Makes it a touch difficult to give a speech when hundreds of agents descend from the sky and try to ventilate you five seconds after you show your face.
Ways to fight in our free society. Cap could have taken any number of courses but he chose violence. He is a famous and political savy man . He could have testified before the Senate and had far more impact than Tony Stark did.;)
Well, again Hill made sure Cap couldnt potically do anything.
By trying to gun him down, he either is forced to become a fugitive or he becomes a prisoner. Either way, his political options are limited.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 10:48 AM
Cap fights for me and all freedom loving comic book readers on this one.
Detailed in the Declaration of Independence is The Right to Life..Something the Hulks Rampage and the New Warriors recklessness have denied over 626+ People.The SHRA Or Something Like it is long over due in the MU.
Gregg Helmberger
08-30-2006, 10:49 AM
Who throws a Law Enforcement Agent from a Moving Vehicale onto a busy NYC street and causes a Pileup and kidnapps Children to lead them into an insurection is indeed a Terrorist .
No, I think that's still criminal. By any rational definition, a "terrorist" is one who uses force against an unarmed population in an effort to create fear in pursuit of political ends. Captain America has acted solely and specifically against armed agents of a wildly corrupt regime. That is, of course, against the laws of the wildly corrupt regime, but it doesn't make him a terrorist except under the "anyone I don't like is a terrorist" school of word usage.
unkiedev
08-30-2006, 10:50 AM
Ways to fight in our free society. Cap could have taken any number of courses but he chose violence. He is a famous and political savy man . He could have testified before the Senate and had far more impact than Tony Stark did.;)
Who said Cap was asked to testify? The only person we've seen has been Tony...wonder why? Tony, the same great guy who kept Cap out of the illuminati.
Tony represents the industrial/military complex. He is a war profiteer. Cap is a lone man trying to defend his and the rights of others to live freely. If cap is being excessive it's because this is a one chance war: If cap gets caught it's all over. He has to keep moving.
Aztec Ace
08-30-2006, 10:50 AM
Who throws a Law Enforcement Agent from a Moving Vehicale onto a busy NYC street and causes a Pileup and kidnapps Children to lead them into an insurection is indeed a Terrorist .
How come I have the sinking feeling that you just don't like Steve Rogers. :rolleyes: I mean long before all this Civil War stuff came about.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 10:51 AM
Well, again Hill made sure Cap couldnt potically do anything.
By trying to gun him down, he either is forced to become a fugitive or he becomes a prisoner. Either way, his political options are limited.
WHY Cap waited til SHEILD cornerd him to even think of the Political sands shifting? Dude WHY didnt he go and try and trstify about the SHRA and maybe get friendly or sympathetic Congressmen to offer a Kinder Gentler alternative? If Cap had tried the Political and Route of Reason and been treated this way I would be more Anti than you ;)
Markavian
08-30-2006, 10:53 AM
How come I have the sinking feeling that you just don't like Steve Rogers. :rolleyes: I mean long before all this Civil War stuff came about.
I am one of Caps biggest Fans I assure you.I havent Always agreed with everything he has done or said but I knew he was always there for the American People ..now I am not so sure:(
WHY Cap waited til SHEILD cornerd him to even think of the Political sands shifting? Dude WHY didnt he go and try and trstify about the SHRA and maybe get friendly or sympathetic Congressmen to offer a Kinder Gentler alternative? If Cap had tried the Political and Route of Reason and been treated this way I would be more Anti than you ;)
Well, if you read the Captain America book you'll see the guy has a fairly busy lifestyle. Once it was proposed that it would become a law, I'm sure he would have been willing to take a break from saving lives to talk to politicians but he was never given a chance.
He didn't necessarily know prior to stanford that this would become a law. He wasn't invited to the Illuminati meetings when it was discussed, and Tony didn't seem too keep on sharing it with everyone else.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 10:59 AM
Who said Cap was asked to testify? The only person we've seen has been Tony...wonder why? Tony, the same great guy who kept Cap out of the illuminati.
Tony represents the industrial/military complex. He is a war profiteer. Cap is a lone man trying to defend his and the rights of others to live freely. If cap is being excessive it's because this is a one chance war: If cap gets caught it's all over. He has to keep moving.
I Never said he was asked. I said he COULD have testifyed and gotten his POV across.Maybe Shaped the SHRA but no he sat on his hands and now there is hell to pay. And it was NAMOR Who wanted the Illuminati Membership to stay small.Tony Reed and the others agreed to satisfy the Hot head of Atlantis.As for your accusations about War profiteering and the so called industrial military complex : Capitalism Beats all other systems hands down and is Great :D
misterorange
08-30-2006, 11:00 AM
Detailed in the Declaration of Independence is The Right to Life..Something the Hulks Rampage and the New Warriors recklessness have denied over 626+ People.The SHRA Or Something Like it is long over due in the MU.
Going out and catching these super heroes and putting them right in a Cell is also against the Constitution. But that seems to have no merit in your arguement.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 11:01 AM
Well, if you read the Captain America book you'll see the guy has a fairly busy lifestyle. Once it was proposed that it would become a law, I'm sure he would have been willing to take a break from saving lives to talk to politicians but he was never given a chance.
He didn't necessarily know prior to stanford that this would become a law. He wasn't invited to the Illuminati meetings when it was discussed, and Tony didn't seem too keep on sharing it with everyone else.He Should have made time. Surely he could have felt the Politics and public views Shifting?. And Please Remember it was Namor who wanted the Existence of that group and meetings Secret ;)
Francis
08-30-2006, 11:03 AM
Who throws a Law Enforcement Agent from a Moving Vehicale onto a busy NYC street and causes a Pileup and kidnapps Children to lead them into an insurection is indeed a Terrorist .
And I have repeatedly demonstrated that Cap did not kidnap the children. He rescued them from being illegally kidnapped by the pro-reg side. And being kidnapped by the pro-reg side made them involved in the fight - and endangered by the pro-reg side. At that point, they were involved and it is safer for them to be lead by Cap than to simply be targets. And I've seen other superheroes throw soldiers and policemen around when infiltrating countries. Is it suddenly a terrorist act because it is an American cop?
Now, if you have anything constructive to say other than the same old debunked points, feel free. But until you come up with new arguments or manage to support your arguments, this one is off the table.
And your argument is irrelevant anyway because even if Cap had kidnapped rather than rescued those children, it would make him a criminal rather than a terrorist. His intent was to get allies, not terrorise the civillian population.
As for why Cap didn't act politically, as I have said repeatedly, SHIELD DIDN'T GIVE HIM TIME. And AFAIK, he's a good leader but not a politician, unlike Tony. The situation got away from him and he simply didn't realise how fast it was moving until Hill brought in her goon squad and threatened him. At that point, he realised that the time for political action was past and he was going to use the only means available to him.
Oh, and you can't cite the declaration of independence as law. It isn't. And even if something like the SHRA is overdue (which I don't deny), the SHRA itself is worse than the disease it is trying to cure.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 11:03 AM
Going out and catching these super heroes and putting them right in a Cell is also against the Constitution. But that seems to have no merit in your arguement.
Is IN the Consitution . They are being held over for Trial .Speedballs trial starts soon as a matter of Fact.They are being held in a special place because normal jails wont do.They are getting Due Process.:)
Francis
08-30-2006, 11:05 AM
He Should have made time. Surely he could have felt the Politics and public views Shifting?. And Please Remember it was Namor who wanted the Existence of that group and meetings Secret ;)
Please! That law was cobbled together badly in a matter of weeks. Even if Cap felt the politics shifting, he would have expected it to take the normal months or even year or two. He will therefore have been moving in the wrong timescale, assuming it was business as usual rather than a potential Enabling Act.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 11:06 AM
Except, of course, SHIELD has orders to shoot him on sight. Makes it a touch difficult to give a speech when hundreds of agents descend from the sky and try to ventilate you five seconds after you show your face.
He COULD have Testifiyed BEFORE His confrontation with SHEILD before the SHRA was voted upon.I cant understand why he sat on his hands as the buiuldup to the congrsssional vote was going on. mean it would have taken Weeks to be voted on even if Congress pulled out all the stops see what I am saying?
He Should have made time. Surely he could have felt the Politics and public views Shifting?. And Please Remember it was Namor who wanted the Existence of that group and meetings Secret ;)
Maybe he should have... Cap never claimed to be a politician. Maybe he should have made time... but the more important problem was that he was DENIED the ability to even try right after the bill was announced.
Hill was either REALLY smart or REALLY stupid. If she actually cared about making this work with the superhero community, she did the worst possible thing she could have done. But if he wanted to negate the biggest threat to the registration, he did exactly what she needed to do and she did it brilliantly. Only Millar knows which is true.
Funny thing here on the debate: everytime somebody brings up that the SHRA is a law and should atleast be respected for that then the responce is almost automatic:
a: yeah be like the nazi germans who agreed to hitlers laws about holocoust
b: Tell that to the men who fought slavery or Ghandi etc.
Well two things:
A: The gernman people did not go about and demanded with a 95% agreement that there should be a holocaust and if anybody had voiced a concurned about that law then that person would have seen the inside of such camp as fast as they could get him/her there. Nazi germany was a dictatorship at that time and cannot be compeared with a democratic ellected goverment who still have election. When MU has the president declear himself president for life and starts arresting all his political opponents then you can make the comperasant. oh and Hitler didnt win with a 95% majority.
B: Most of those changes was done in peacefull demostrations, and its the peacefull demostrations that turnes the crowed. Ghandi's none violence way gave his contry freedome, not the Ghandi go asskicking on any englishmen I see. From what I know of Martin luther: I cant recall seeing him with a gun in his hand posing over dead people. People do feel for the underdog, the dog who just want to have some respect, but they have no problem with agreeing to take the barking, postman biting mad dog to the doctor to the final shoot.
C: and this is a new world, not 1800, or early 1900. this is today, people dont go around in the streets with axe and swords, or have duels at hign noon. Its not the wild west. People dont stand for brutes who bullies their way anymore, not when they have a chanse to stand up against them and do it peacfully.
As for captain. yeah he is no loonger worthy of the title, and they should call him on it. Right now he is neighter defend the US citizents rights to feel safe nor is he defending the goverment. he is ignoring the wish of the people and the wish of the goverment. He is simply stuck in time and sosiaty left him. He has finaly outplayed his roll and should be laid to rest. Beside captain america is a much better consept if its something that never dies even if the man inside does. Let him die and let another take his place so captain america lives. Just not steve. its past his retirement day anyway
Markavian
08-30-2006, 11:14 AM
Please! That law was cobbled together badly in a matter of weeks. Even if Cap felt the politics shifting, he would have expected it to take the normal months or even year or two. He will therefore have been moving in the wrong timescale, assuming it was business as usual rather than a potential Enabling Act.
A product of Months of Political meetings BEFORE Stamford. Then Tony pulled his stunt and got them to adjust it .How we may never know. But I think its safe to say its less Draconian now than before he dis the titanium man Ruise.SOMETHING Must be done or as Reed Richards predicted Horrible things are coming . The Infinity Gaunlet , Age of Apocaplyse and House of M etc have all shown the worst possible of Superhuman Actions but the Public remains blissfully ignorant so far of these actions ..Though I predict that may change and if and when John Q Public Learns how they have been jerked around by Supers many may beg for a Cell in 42 when that day comes.
As for captain. yeah he is no loonger worthy of the title, and they should call him on it. Right now he is neighter defend the US citizents rights to feel safe nor is he defending the goverment. he is ignoring the wish of the people and the wish of the goverment. He is simply stuck in time and sosiaty left him. He has finaly outplayed his roll and should be laid to rest. Beside captain america is a much better consept if its something that never dies even if the man inside does. Let him die and let another take his place so captain america lives. Just not steve. its past his retirement day anyway
It was established long ago that Cap no longer represents the country or even the people of the country. He represents it's ideals. If the country and it's people turn against those ideals, he won't represent them.
And it's the principals of the man Steve Rogers that gave Captain America it's meaning to begin with. It was never the suit or the country or the title, it was the man. You cannot seperate Captain America from Stever Rogers because without Steve Rogers Captian America is just a guy wearing his suit.
misterorange
08-30-2006, 11:19 AM
Is IN the Consitution . They are being held over for Trial .Speedballs trial starts soon as a matter of Fact.They are being held in a special place because normal jails wont do.They are getting Due Process.:)Funny doesnt seem like they are getting Due Process. Lets see i think its Frontlines #2 where the Patriot is running from Shield and they fire a missile or what not at him inside a building. Sure thats normal i mean didnt he just kill someone anyay :rolleyes: BTW Speedball has no powers so why not hold him in another spot instead of throwing him right in prison.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 11:25 AM
Funny doesnt seem like they are getting Due Process. Lets see i think its Frontlines #2 where the Patriot is running from Shield and they fire a missile or what not at him inside a building. Sure thats normal i mean didnt he just kill someone anyay :rolleyes: BTW Speedball has no powers so why not hold him in another spot instead of throwing him right in prison.Are repressed by the truama he suffered but are still there. He broke the law so he gets held over for trial . Thats how law enforcement and the legal System works.Also Patriot is indestructble and he knew what the law was before he went out to break it.
Gregg Helmberger
08-30-2006, 11:27 AM
B: Most of those changes was done in peacefull demostrations, and its the peacefull demostrations that turnes the crowed. Ghandi's none violence way gave his contry freedome, not the Ghandi go asskicking on any englishmen I see. From what I know of Martin luther: I cant recall seeing him with a gun in his hand posing over dead people. People do feel for the underdog, the dog who just want to have some respect, but they have no problem with agreeing to take the barking, postman biting mad dog to the doctor to the final shoot.
Actually it was done by Ghandi's peaceful means AND by Subhash Chandra Bose, et al. leading armed insurrections. Many historians consider the armed portion of the struggle more instrumental in gaining eventual freedom for India than Ghandi's peaceful tactics, even if a simplified haigiography of Ghandi is better remembered today. And frankly, I have no clue what you're driving at with the "posing over dead people" remark, so I'll assume it's a straw man and move on.
C: and this is a new world, not 1800, or early 1900. this is today, people dont go around in the streets with axe and swords, or have duels at hign noon. Its not the wild west. People dont stand for brutes who bullies their way anymore, not when they have a chanse to stand up against them and do it peacfully.
I'm reasonably certain the concept of fighting against unjust laws didn't go out of fashion in "the early 1900s," especially considering the civil rights turmoil of the 1960s. And it's very hard to peacefully demonstrate for something when the penalty for doing so is imprisonment in another dimension. It's not like anyone's being given a choice here: sign up and help enforce an unjust law by imprisoning your friends and allies in the freaking Negative Zone, or get imprisoned in the freaking Negative Zone yourself. THOSE are your choices. All this hot air about "peaceful demonstrations" is nonsense because SHIELD and the government aren't allowing any such thing; you toe their line or they send you to a prison in another plane of existence, and a highly inimical plane of existence at that.
Are repressed by the truama he suffered but are still there. He broke the law so he gets held over for trial . Thats how law enforcement and the legal System works.
If you honestly beleive how Speedball is being treated is an example of how the legal system should work, you might wanna take another look. Seriously, the wrtiers of the book have outright said he's not being give his constitutional rights. It's one of the points of the story.
Regardles of whether he's right or wrong in what he did in Standard, he's being treated wrongly.
Francis
08-30-2006, 11:31 AM
Funny thing here on the debate: everytime somebody brings up that the SHRA is a law and should atleast be respected for that then the responce is almost automatic:
a: yeah be like the nazi germans who agreed to hitlers laws about holocoust
b: Tell that to the men who fought slavery or Ghandi etc.
That's because The Law Is The Law is a bad argument. There are times when you should oppose it. Whether this is one of those times is a whole different argument (which you seem to address below).
Well two things:
A: The gernman people did not go about and demanded with a 95% agreement that there should be a holocaust and if anybody had voiced a concurned about that law then that person would have seen the inside of such camp as fast as they could get him/her there. Nazi germany was a dictatorship at that time and cannot be compeared with a democratic ellected goverment who still have election. When MU has the president declear himself president for life and starts arresting all his political opponents then you can make the comperasant. oh and Hitler didnt win with a 95% majority.
The idea of superhero registration has 95% popularity. That doesn't mean that the actual workings of the law have 95% popularity from people who know what the law says (and worse yet, how it is implimented). As the SHRA stands, in the US it is both unconstitutional (removal of presumption of innocence for one) and probably corruptly implimented. But that will not stop the abuses from such an unconstitutional law before it is struck down.
B: Most of those changes was done in peacefull demostrations, and its the peacefull demostrations that turnes the crowed. Ghandi's none violence way gave his contry freedome, not the Ghandi go asskicking on any englishmen I see. From what I know of Martin luther: I cant recall seeing him with a gun in his hand posing over dead people. People do feel for the underdog, the dog who just want to have some respect, but they have no problem with agreeing to take the barking, postman biting mad dog to the doctor to the final shoot.
I would agree - but non-violent resistance firstly takes years (during which superheroes are going insane in the Negative Zone) and secondly the pro-reg side is big enough to simply pick him up, throw him in the negative zone and wipe the evidence. And I have seen no evidence that Hill won't do this.
C: and this is a new world, not 1800, or early 1900. this is today, people dont go around in the streets with axe and swords, or have duels at hign noon. Its not the wild west. People dont stand for brutes who bullies their way anymore, not when they have a chanse to stand up against them and do it peacfully.
But Cap knows that if he tries that, he will just get shot by Hill and Shield, picked up and thrown into the Negative Zone by Iron Man. The passive resistance needs a strong non-superhuman contingent.
As for captain. yeah he is no loonger worthy of the title, and they should call him on it. Right now he is neighter defend the US citizents rights to feel safe nor is he defending the goverment.
Indeed. Three Cheers for Cap. He has seldom (other than Ultimate Cap) been a government lackey. And he is defending citizens rights. The right to a fair trial. The right to Due Process (which has been well and truly stomped). The right of Habeas Corpus. All these are being breached regularly and systematically by the implimenters of the SHRA (and never mind the entrapment of Jessica Drew). AFAIK, there is no "right to feel safe". But there is a right to due process. And there is a right to a fair trial. And there is a right not to face cruel and unusual punishment. He is defending citizens rights. Not the extensions that some citizens want at the cost of others.
Jmacq1
08-30-2006, 11:35 AM
To answer an earlier question: I'm pretty sure Markavian liked Captain America up until he realized Captain America wasn't a blindly loyal tool of the government willing to beat up, deceive, imprison and deprive perfectly good and noble people of their constitutional rights simply because they're "different" and chose to help people in spite of that.
All the Pro-Reg side is doing is proving that you get better/more fair treatment if you're a homicidal supervillain than an anti-registration superhero now.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 11:46 AM
That's because The Law Is The Law is a bad argument. There are times when you should oppose it. Whether this is one of those times is a whole different argument (which you seem to address below).
The idea of superhero registration has 95% popularity. That doesn't mean that the actual workings of the law have 95% popularity from people who know what the law says (and worse yet, how it is implimented). As the SHRA stands, in the US it is both unconstitutional (removal of presumption of innocence for one) and probably corruptly implimented. But that will not stop the abuses from such an unconstitutional law before it is struck down.
I would agree - but non-violent resistance firstly takes years (during which superheroes are going insane in the Negative Zone) and secondly the pro-reg side is big enough to simply pick him up, throw him in the negative zone and wipe the evidence. And I have seen no evidence that Hill won't do this.
But Cap knows that if he tries that, he will just get shot by Hill and Shield, picked up and thrown into the Negative Zone by Iron Man. The passive resistance needs a strong non-superhuman contingent.
Indeed. Three Cheers for Cap. He has seldom (other than Ultimate Cap) been a government lackey. And he is defending citizens rights. The right to a fair trial. The right to Due Process (which has been well and truly stomped). The right of Habeas Corpus. All these are being breached regularly and systematically by the implimenters of the SHRA (and never mind the entrapment of Jessica Drew). AFAIK, there is no "right to feel safe". But there is a right to due process. And there is a right to a fair trial. And there is a right not to face cruel and unusual punishment. He is defending citizens rights. Not the extensions that some citizens want at the cost of others.
Entrapment ? Where ? You Anti Reg people throw the Word Entrapment around like cheap cheese.. Drew entraped herself by her association with Hydra.And they are being given "Due Process" But such takes time in the real world so why should the MU be any different? We See Speedballs trial starting soon . And as for the cruek and unusaul punishment charge It probally wont fly . Supers NEED a special area to contain them.A Prisoner sued once because the southern Prison he was in was located next to a Bayou and he got severe Sinus infections causing him great distress and illness and pain.The State was able to prove since he escaped so easily from other prisons that the one next to the bog which was far away from most of society made his escape unlikley and once when he did escape he was easily recaptured.The Supreme Court ruled he didnt have a right to the most comfortible prison as long as they continued to offer him reasonible medical care as needed.
Erazmus
08-30-2006, 11:48 AM
Indeed. Three Cheers for Cap. He has seldom (other than Ultimate Cap) been a government lackey. And he is defending citizens rights. The right to a fair trial. The right to Due Process (which has been well and truly stomped). The right of Habeas Corpus. All these are being breached regularly and systematically by the implimenters of the SHRA (and never mind the entrapment of Jessica Drew). AFAIK, there is no "right to feel safe". But there is a right to due process. And there is a right to a fair trial. And there is a right not to face cruel and unusual punishment. He is defending citizens rights. Not the extensions that some citizens want at the cost of others.
Great post, you nail the main points. On a side note, it's funny how some people seem to think that if the Cap doesn't work for the government, then he somehow isn't doing his job. As another poster pointed out, the Cap stands for principles. These principles were uniquely American that everyone in America agreed with. At some point those ideals became tainted and America's principles became clouded. The Cap's ideals haven't changed. Cap still stands for the ideals that most of us still share. He's not a government robot.
People, still to this day, still fall for polarization of ideals. They see a side and pick it without looking further into the gray area and what falls between the cracks. Sure, in the MU the population people support the RA. But look at reality, how many people truly understand laws that are in place? Most people don't even know what they're voting for half the time. They see a commercial on tv telling them a Prop is "bad" or "good" and that's all the "research" they need. Its amazing how many of our laws are decided by a 30 second block of advertising time.
I kind of went on a tangent there, but I think you get my point.
Entrapment ? Where ? You Anti Reg people throw the Word Entrapment around like cheap cheese.. Drew entraped herself by her association with Hydra.And they are being given "Due Process" But such takes time in the real world so why should the MU be any different? We See Speedballs trial starting soon . And as for the cruek and unusaul punishment charge It probally wont fly . Supers NEED a special area to contain them.A Prisoner sued once because the southern Prison he was in was located next to a Bayou and he got severe Sinus infections causing him great distress and illness and pain.The State was able to prove since he escaped so easily from other prisons that the one next to the bog which was far away from most of society made his escape unlikley and once when he did escape he was easily recaptured.The Supreme Court ruled he didnt have a right to the most comfortible prison as long as they continued to offer him reasonible medical care as needed.
There are facets of due process which take time, and there are facets of it that should be done IMMEDIATELY. You don't pick and choose when a person gets his rights and when they don't. It doens't work that way.
As for he prison... the negative zone has a psychologically damaging effects on the people in it. Any jury that states such a prison would be acceptable is wrong. And moral implications aside... prisons are where we keep people we deem dangerous. Do you really want to place people in a place that mentally screws them up even more? Aside from the issue of whether it's moral or legal, it's just downright STUPID.
Jmacq1
08-30-2006, 11:59 AM
Entrapment ? Where ? You Anti Reg people throw the Word Entrapment around like cheap cheese.. Drew entraped herself by her association with Hydra.And they are being given "Due Process" But such takes time in the real world so why should the MU be any different? We See Speedballs trial starting soon . And as for the cruek and unusaul punishment charge It probally wont fly . Supers NEED a special area to contain them.A Prisoner sued once because the southern Prison he was in was located next to a Bayou and he got severe Sinus infections causing him great distress and illness and pain.The State was able to prove since he escaped so easily from other prisons that the one next to the bog which was far away from most of society made his escape unlikley and once when he did escape he was easily recaptured.The Supreme Court ruled he didnt have a right to the most comfortible prison as long as they continued to offer him reasonible medical care as needed.
Must've missed the part where some people are driven insane just from exposure to the Negative Zone. That negates your argument right there.
There already -are- superhuman prisons out there in the MU (The Slab, the Vault). Either of these could easily have been "shored up" and put back into use. Instead, they throw you into an intrinsically dangerous and unhealthy dimension -prior- to your trial, exposing you to potential insanity before you've even been convicted of any crime. Haven't seen too many arraignments or bail hearings for all those folks that are already getting locked up in "42" either....
And lets not even mention how idiotic certain people would look if Annihilus got home from his own big crossover and slaughtered all those prisoners en masse.
CyberCoyote
08-30-2006, 12:05 PM
There First Step is "let the villians know we're after them and let the entire first strike force get killed"?
Yeah. I want those guys running the super hero department.
LOL! I didn't need to read anymore. That was perfect :)
Francis
08-30-2006, 12:06 PM
Entrapment ? Where ? You Anti Reg people throw the Word Entrapment around like cheap cheese..
I've read it again and apologise. The Furybot didn't encourage her to do things any more than she gave it straight answers.
Drew entraped herself by her association with Hydra.
Newsflash: She was associated with Hydra via a brainwashing. She then stayed as a multiple-agent working for Nick Fury.
And they are being given "Due Process"
Bwahahahaha!
But such takes time in the real world so why should the MU be any different? We See Speedballs trial starting soon.
XPac claims (can you source it Xpac?) that one of the points that the author raises is that Speedball's trial will not have due process applied.
And as for the cruek and unusaul punishment charge It probally wont fly . Supers NEED a special area to contain them.
But not an area that will send them mad. Let's create our army of supervillains by maddening the heroes.
The Supreme Court ruled he didnt have a right to the most comfortible prison as long as they continued to offer him reasonible medical care as needed.
And AFAIK, there is no medical care that can deal with the madness from the Negative Zone. And also, the low-powered heroes don't need the negative zone nor do those who won't escape. Once again, you're operating on an assumption of guilty until proven innocent.
unkiedev
08-30-2006, 12:07 PM
He COULD have Testifiyed BEFORE His confrontation with SHEILD before the SHRA was voted upon.I cant understand why he sat on his hands as the buiuldup to the congrsssional vote was going on. mean it would have taken Weeks to be voted on even if Congress pulled out all the stops see what I am saying?
You said yourself that there is no evidence Cap was ever approached to testify. You said yourself this was an obscure bill that Tony bought to the forefront after Stamford. Let me ask you:
HOW does Cap testify to a closed hearing committee he has never heard of and wasn't invited to attend? The only people who seemed to know about it were Tony and maybe Reed, i.e. Members of the Illuminati, the secret super-powers club tony kept Cap off of.
He could not have, nor ever would have had the chance to testify. The bill passed in a matter of hectic weeks. The whole thing caught Steve by suprise. Next thing he knows his pal Tony Stark is acting like a Storm Trooper, rounding up hard working and talented people like criminals.
Erazmus
08-30-2006, 12:11 PM
And lets not even mention how idiotic certain people would look if Annihilus got home from his own big crossover and slaughtered all those prisoners en masse.
I've been wondering that myself. I've been following Annihilation closely (enjoying it immensely). But is Marvel trying to crossover the two crossover series? Or are these two completely different negative zones?
TheCrow13
08-30-2006, 12:13 PM
In an interveiw with about the mighty avengers the writer said in eizard " Everyone assumes that Cap and iron man will be the same when this war ends. Theres a big possibility that cap could be wearing the iron man suit and vise vursa." What the SHAFU does that mean?!
Jmacq1
08-30-2006, 12:27 PM
In an interveiw with about the mighty avengers the writer said in eizard " Everyone assumes that Cap and iron man will be the same when this war ends. Theres a big possibility that cap could be wearing the iron man suit and vise vursa." What the SHAFU does that mean?!
Actually, I think the quote was more like: "Who's to say that it's really Tony in the Iron Man suit and Steve in the Cap suit?" Not that they were swapping places, just that different people might be assuming those identities (as I've suspected John Walker will be doing in the Captain America case ever since this crossover started).
Basically I think we'll have 2 Captain Americas, and Iron Man will still be Tony.
Alpow
08-30-2006, 12:27 PM
Then Tony pulled his stunt and got them to adjust it .How we may never know. But I think its safe to say its less Draconian now than before he dis the titanium man Ruise.
No it isn't, let us see some proof of this claim please.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 12:42 PM
There are facets of due process which take time, and there are facets of it that should be done IMMEDIATELY. You don't pick and choose when a person gets his rights and when they don't. It doens't work that way.
As for he prison... the negative zone has a psychologically damaging effects on the people in it. Any jury that states such a prison would be acceptable is wrong. And moral implications aside... prisons are where we keep people we deem dangerous. Do you really want to place people in a place that mentally screws them up even more? Aside from the issue of whether it's moral or legal, it's just downright STUPID.
Yet if the Prisoners arent being given some sort of Drugs to relive the stress of the Negative Zone ,Or placed in a Sheilded Enviroment. We will have to see.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 12:45 PM
No it isn't, let us see some proof of this claim please.
Were more willing to talk with Tony after the Titanium Mans attack than before. And Tony was able to land a Presidental appointment to head the SHRA Enforcment arm as shown in X Men Civil war.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 12:47 PM
Actually, I think the quote was more like: "Who's to say that it's really Tony in the Iron Man suit and Steve in the Cap suit?" Not that they were swapping places, just that different people might be assuming those identities (as I've suspected John Walker will be doing in the Captain America case ever since this crossover started).
Basically I think we'll have 2 Captain Americas, and Iron Man will still be Tony.
We may be looking at more than one Captain America when its over .Much like the two Popes of the Dark ages scenario.
misterorange
08-30-2006, 12:47 PM
Are repressed by the truama he suffered but are still there. He broke the law so he gets held over for trial . Thats how law enforcement and the legal System works.Also Patriot is indestructble and he knew what the law was before he went out to break it. People dont get thrown in Prison though when they do something to wait for a trial. They usually get held in the Court Cells until the trial comes up. Also about Patriot, so it was right of shield to try and kill him and blowing up a building that could have killed even more people. Maybe Hill should be in prison with Speedball because she is a idiot for not using her brain.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 12:49 PM
Must've missed the part where some people are driven insane just from exposure to the Negative Zone. That negates your argument right there.
There already -are- superhuman prisons out there in the MU (The Slab, the Vault). Either of these could easily have been "shored up" and put back into use. Instead, they throw you into an intrinsically dangerous and unhealthy dimension -prior- to your trial, exposing you to potential insanity before you've even been convicted of any crime. Haven't seen too many arraignments or bail hearings for all those folks that are already getting locked up in "42" either....
And lets not even mention how idiotic certain people would look if Annihilus got home from his own big crossover and slaughtered all those prisoners en masse.
Thus earning a Presidental Pardon :D
Thus earning a Presidental Pardon :D
Technically they're the ones invading Annihilus home. Odds are Hill will charge them for breaking an entry on top of everything else.
Alpow
08-30-2006, 12:52 PM
Were more willing to talk with Tony after the Titanium Mans attack than before. And Tony was able to land a Presidental appointment to head the SHRA Enforcment arm as shown in X Men Civil war.
Which proves Tony is well versed in the art of joining (one might use the word collaborating) those whom he cannot beat, it doesn't show the act was altered in any way.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 12:53 PM
People dont get thrown in Prison though when they do something to wait for a trial. They usually get held in the Court Cells until the trial comes up. Also about Patriot, so it was right of shield to try and kill him and blowing up a building that could have killed even more people. Maybe Hill should be in prison with Speedball because she is a idiot for not using her brain.
the nearest Appropiate Lock up.Super Prisoners would NOT Go to a normal Local Jail.As these prisoners are all superhuman they all get locked up in the best jail to hold them: AKA 42.
Jmacq1
08-30-2006, 12:54 PM
the nearest Appropiate Lock up.Super Prisoners would NOT Go to a normal Local Jail.As these prisoners are all superhuman they all get locked up in the best jail to hold them: AKA 42.
Or y'know...the Vault. Or the Slab. Or the "Temporary Slab". All notably places that do -not- have a decent chance of driving you insane simply from exposure.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 12:55 PM
Which proves Tony is well versed in the art of joining (one might use the word collaborating) those whom he cannot beat, it doesn't show the act was altered in any way.
We would have someone like Henry Peter Gyrich or Worse. Simply by leading he adds a voice of moderation and Reason to the inner circle of the Powers that be;)
Markavian
08-30-2006, 12:56 PM
Or y'know...the Vault. Or the Slab. Or the "Temporary Slab". All notably places that do -not- have a decent chance of driving you insane simply from exposure.
All too easy to break out of. 42 is the answer of too many supers breaking out and raising hell when they do.
Jmacq1
08-30-2006, 12:56 PM
Thus earning a Presidental Pardon :D
Wow, you're actually implying that anti-registration heroes are more evil than Annihilus, a genocidal despot on a universal scale.
Heck, given the way the Pro-Reg side has been acting, you're probably exactly right. They'd pardon him, then ask him to register, then be all surprised when he eats the President's face on live television.....
Erazmus
08-30-2006, 12:57 PM
All too easy to break out of. 42 is the answer of too many supers breaking out and raising hell when they do.
That response is scary on so many levels...
XPac claims (can you source it Xpac?) that one of the points that the author raises is that Speedball's trial will not have due process applied.
In the podcast of the Civil War San Diego panel in regard of the constitutionality of the treatment Speedball is getting, Paul said that he was getting the raw end of the deal as far as his civil rights go, and that it's going to get worse.
It didn't specifically say that he would be denied due process in a trial though (and if anything I said sounded like me saying that, I apologize). Hell, if even gets a freaking trial I'll be happy. He needs a new lawyer though, cause Jen has proven pretty inept.
He's being used as the public scapegoat here... and as wrong as that is, it's unfortuantely very realistic.
Jmacq1
08-30-2006, 12:59 PM
All too easy to break out of. 42 is the answer of too many supers breaking out and raising hell when they do.
All too easy to break out of -after- Tony and Reed and Hank have had a go at them? I doubt it....
Nevermind that once again, heroes are getting worse treatment than metahuman mass-murderers and rapists.
Am I the -only- one that sees something wrong with that? Would you stand for it in the real world if they were screwing over someone that has in the past saved countless lives while Charles Manson still gets all his constitutional rights?
misterorange
08-30-2006, 01:04 PM
the nearest Appropiate Lock up.Super Prisoners would NOT Go to a normal Local Jail.As these prisoners are all superhuman they all get locked up in the best jail to hold them: AKA 42. But i thought you said speedballs powers we supressed? According to those Doctors too they said his powers were gone. So it would seem since he has no real powers he wouldnt be considered a super hero. We have seen the damage he has cause when he was in Prison to so it would have been better to keep him isolated.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 01:04 PM
Wow, you're actually implying that anti-registration heroes are more evil than Annihilus, a genocidal despot on a universal scale.
Heck, given the way the Pro-Reg side has been acting, you're probably exactly right. They'd pardon him, then ask him to register, then be all surprised when he eats the President's face on live television.....
How did I say they are more Evil than Annihlus? I meant The HEROES locked up in 42 Killing HIM and earning A Pardon..
Markavian
08-30-2006, 01:05 PM
But i thought you said speedballs powers we supressed? According to those Doctors too they said his powers were gone. So it would seem since he has no real powers he wouldnt be considered a super hero. We have seen the damage he has cause when he was in Prison to so it would have been better to keep him isolated.
His Powers come out when he is under great stress .
How did I say they are more Evil than Annihlus? I meant The HEROES locked up in 42 Killing HIM and earning A Pardon..
Hmmm... I wonder if we can blame the Anti side for the Annihilation Wave.
Here Reed Richards is dumping a prison filled with heroes that would likely attack him if they could rignt in his backyard. You almost can't blame poor Annihilus for leaving the Negative Zone and invading the earth dimension.
No wonder Watcher showed up for Civil War. That evil bill started not only the Civil War but the Annihilation story arc as well. Agent Hill's evil will spread throught the whole universe if she's not stopped.
Alpow
08-30-2006, 01:18 PM
We would have someone like Henry Peter Gyrich or Worse. Simply by leading he adds a voice of moderation and Reason to the inner circle of the Powers that be;)
At least then people would see the SHRA for what it really is, instead of Stark having them play along until it's too late.
Do you really think Stark will last one minute after he stop towing the party line once Cap and friends have been taken care of?
Then it's time to send the new super hero army after Atlantis (as Stark himself has said will happen if they don't knuckle under), then its off to the moon to deal with the inhumans (who are already in a state of war with the US government and an invasion will certainly happen once they figure out how to use the Terrigen mists) then finally those other countries who don't take orders form Washington will be dealt with.
If Tony thinks he can stop that then he is greatly over estimating his worth to the government once the heroes resistance has been defeated.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 01:20 PM
Hmmm... I wonder if we can blame the Anti side for the Annihilation Wave.
Here Reed Richards is dumping a prison filled with heroes that would likely attack him if they could rignt in his backyard. You almost can't blame poor Annihilus for leaving the Negative Zone and invading the earth dimension.
No wonder Watcher showed up for Civil War. That evil bill started not only the Civil War but the Annihilation story arc as well. Agent Hill's evil will spread throught the whole universe if she's not stopped.
Eh Nice try to place everything wrong on Hills Lap but I am already IN her lap so BACK OFF :mad: :p :D ;)
Markavian
08-30-2006, 01:23 PM
:D At least then people would see the SHRA for what it really is, instead of Stark having them play along until it's too late.
Do you really think Stark will last one minute after he stop towing the party line once Cap and friends have been taken care of?
Then it's time to send the new super hero army after Atlantis (as Stark himself has said will happen if they don't knuckle under), then its off to the moon to deal with the inhumans (who are already in a state of war with the US government and an invasion will certainly happen once they figure out how to use the Terrigen mists) then finally those other countries who don't take orders form Washington will be dealt with.
If Tony thinks he can stop that then he is greatly over estimating his worth to the government once the heroes resistance has been defeated.
CAEIEP = Crush Americas Evil Inhuman Enemies Program Go Go Go :D
jester1436
08-30-2006, 01:32 PM
:D
CAEIEP = Crush Americas Evil Inhuman Enemies Program Go Go Go :D
Honestly, the more you post, the less I think you're a real person.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 01:49 PM
:) :) Honestly, the more you post, the less I think you're a real person.
Thats the nicest thing you Antis have said to me yet
Markavian
08-30-2006, 01:54 PM
Many say" Oh I hope the Inhumans Attack" or "I hope the Hulk returns and attacks" Are you people even THINKING of what you are saying? You want the United States of America to suffer an Invasion by foreign Hostile Powers? Or You want a Rampaging Killer Hulk unleased on Us AGAIN? For Heavens sake ::bangs head:::confused: :mad:
Alpow
08-30-2006, 02:00 PM
Many say" Oh I hope the Inhumans Attack" or "I hope the Hulk returns and attacks" Are you people even THINKING of what you are saying? You want the United States of America to suffer an Invasion by foreign Hostile Powers? Or You want a Rampaging Killer Hulk unleased on Us AGAIN? For Heavens sake ::bangs head:::confused: :mad:
In the case of the Inhumans the US government would be bringing it upon themselves by stealing Inhuman property and Hulk just has a beef with the people who kidnapped him and exiled him.
Jmacq1
08-30-2006, 02:00 PM
Many say" Oh I hope the Inhumans Attack" or "I hope the Hulk returns and attacks" Are you people even THINKING of what you are saying? You want the United States of America to suffer an Invasion by foreign Hostile Powers? Or You want a Rampaging Killer Hulk unleased on Us AGAIN? For Heavens sake ::bangs head:::confused: :mad:
Hint: You don't live in the Marvel Universe, and neither do I.
Hence, I could care less what happens to the general populace/government/whatever of the fictional Marvel Universe United States, as long as it's fun to read. :cool:
Gregg Helmberger
08-30-2006, 02:01 PM
Many say" Oh I hope the Inhumans Attack" or "I hope the Hulk returns and attacks" Are you people even THINKING of what you are saying? You want the United States of America to suffer an Invasion by foreign Hostile Powers? Or You want a Rampaging Killer Hulk unleased on Us AGAIN? For Heavens sake ::bangs head:::confused: :mad:
Hey, Hulk rampages make for some great comic books! I'm all for them!
Markavian
08-30-2006, 02:09 PM
Hint: You don't live in the Marvel Universe, and neither do I.
Hence, I could care less what happens to the general populace/government/whatever of the fictional Marvel Universe United States, as long as it's fun to read. :cool:
Many Equate what is Happening in the MU to what is happening in the Real World. So we can extrapolate from that they believe the USA deserves to be invaded .Like the Post I saw in the Ultimate Forum where someone said " The USA deserved to be conquered and beaten down .Too bad it isnt happpening here now" Too many have hostility towards the goverment both in the MU or our own universe that i think is undeserved. I care very much what happens to people even in Fiction because I like Happy Endings but I agree Dark if well done can be an egrossing read at times. But Positive theamed and Patriotic Comics Movies and Shows do sell better .:)
unkiedev
08-30-2006, 02:27 PM
Many Equate what is Happening in the MU to what is happening in the Real World. So we can extrapolate from that they believe the USA deserves to be invaded .Like the Post I saw in the Ultimate Forum where someone said " The USA deserved to be conquered and beaten down .Too bad it isnt happpening here now" Too many have hostility towards the goverment both in the MU or our own universe that i think is undeserved. I care very much what happens to people even in Fiction because I like Happy Endings but I agree Dark if well done can be an egrossing read at times. But Positive theamed and Patriotic Comics Movies and Shows do sell better .:)
Equating Real-world events to comics worlds can be problematic. Comics were intended as escapist entertainment. Reality is reality.
HOWEVER, Markavian, you seem to have very strong feelings about America and the Captian, inside and outside of the Marvel Universe. It's cool you feel so strongly about it all.
America, in the Marvel Universe, made an extremely provocative decision in the wake of a national disaster. When two super powered beings tangled and killed innocent people they outlawed all non government sanctioned super humans. As seen with Wonderman in Frontline, this fictitious America in the Marvel Universe is of the opinion that registering with the Government makes you a federal employee (with no pay or benefits) and therefore under military authority to be used in whatever manner seen fit.
These actions should raise eyebrows. Look at the destruction and carnage created as the “Legal” super humans hunt the illegal. What was a previously tragic and isolated case, Stamford, is repeating itself all over the country.
You seem to agree with the actions of this Fictional America. What if they suddenly did something you didn’t agree to? NO Government is perfect. Maybe shield/USA has the best intentions using Wonderman as a soldier, yet there is great potential for someone with less then perfect intentions to exploit such a system for evil purposes. What if they decided Iron Man should be killing rogue supers instead of capturing? It could happen.
It’s clear you like Captain America. Try to understand why he feels he needs to take such extreme measures. In the real universe Freedom can stop if folks stop fighting for it. That might be the case here.
Francis
08-30-2006, 02:46 PM
Many Equate what is Happening in the MU to what is happening in the Real World. So we can extrapolate from that they believe the USA deserves to be invaded.
No you can't. You can extrapolate that some think that America in the MU deserves to be invaded. You can only extrapolate that to the real world if the people think that what is happening in the MU is the same as what is happening in the real world rather than that the MU is a comic universe and deserves a more extreme solution.
Most of us can tell that the MU is fiction. If you can't and think that the majority of others can't, that says more about you than it does about most of us. I will grant that a few people are crazy.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 02:53 PM
No you can't. You can extrapolate that some think that America in the MU deserves to be invaded. You can only extrapolate that to the real world if the people think that what is happening in the MU is the same as what is happening in the real world rather than that the MU is a comic universe and deserves a more extreme solution.
Most of us can tell that the MU is fiction. If you can't and think that the majority of others can't, that says more about you than it does about most of us. I will grant that a few people are crazy.Beyond dispute. But there ARE people who compare The Real World and the MU and seemingly Root for Chaos or Destruction in Both . And Yes..They are indeed Crazy
Francis
08-30-2006, 02:55 PM
Markavian, could you change the poll to four options rather than three biassed ones. I want the pro-Cap one split from:
Yes Time for him to retire !He has done enough Damage..New Blood is needed
No ! He should be allowed to stay no matter what he has done,His heart is in the right Place.
Retire the name entirilly! A New National Patriotic Hero is needed!
To
Yes Time for him to retire !He has done enough Damage..New Blood is needed
No ! He may be wrong, but he is Captain America.
No ! He is doing the right thing.
Retire the name entirilly! A New National Patriotic Hero is needed!
And possibly split the last one to the old option and "Retire the name entirely. A 'National Patriotic Hero' is a bad idea!"
ETA: Then please don't assume that everyone who opposes you is crazy. In fact, please ignore them rather than tarring everyone with that brush.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 02:57 PM
Equating Real-world events to comics worlds can be problematic. Comics were intended as escapist entertainment. Reality is reality.
HOWEVER, Markavian, you seem to have very strong feelings about America and the Captian, inside and outside of the Marvel Universe. It's cool you feel so strongly about it all.
America, in the Marvel Universe, made an extremely provocative decision in the wake of a national disaster. When two super powered beings tangled and killed innocent people they outlawed all non government sanctioned super humans. As seen with Wonderman in Frontline, this fictitious America in the Marvel Universe is of the opinion that registering with the Government makes you a federal employee (with no pay or benefits) and therefore under military authority to be used in whatever manner seen fit.
These actions should raise eyebrows. Look at the destruction and carnage created as the “Legal” super humans hunt the illegal. What was a previously tragic and isolated case, Stamford, is repeating itself all over the country.
You seem to agree with the actions of this Fictional America. What if they suddenly did something you didn’t agree to? NO Government is perfect. Maybe shield/USA has the best intentions using Wonderman as a soldier, yet there is great potential for someone with less then perfect intentions to exploit such a system for evil purposes. What if they decided Iron Man should be killing rogue supers instead of capturing? It could happen.
It’s clear you like Captain America. Try to understand why he feels he needs to take such extreme measures. In the real universe Freedom can stop if folks stop fighting for it. That might be the case here.Civil Wars Aftermath and any Dishonest or Evil Goverment ooffical that tries to exploit Wonderman or any Hero would make for an interesting and Unique Villan . Their Taking down by Wonderman or his Friends and Allies and The Honest Goverment Officals could make for an awesome Story Arc wouldnt it?:)
Alan2099
08-30-2006, 03:11 PM
Didn't they make Walker Captian America again in the Invaders series? They didn't bother even trying to take it away from Steve this time... but they gave it to walker as well.
I didn't actually read the series (couldn't get past the art), so maybe he wasn't actually a Captian America and just wore the suit, I don't know.
Walker was calling himself Captain America. if I recall right, he was acting under orders that came from the Red Skull (who was in disguise as a high ranking politician).
Nobody that worked with Walker would actually call him "Captain America" though, especially not Namor.
Civil Wars Aftermath and any Dishonest or Evil Goverment ooffical that tries to exploit Wonderman or any Hero would make for an interesting and Unique Villan . Their Taking down by Wonderman or his Friends and Allies and The Honest Goverment Officals could make for an awesome Story Arc wouldnt it?
You've never read an issue of X-factor, have you?
Markavian
08-30-2006, 03:21 PM
Markavian, could you change the poll to four options rather than three biassed ones. I want the pro-Cap one split from:
Yes Time for him to retire !He has done enough Damage..New Blood is needed
No ! He should be allowed to stay no matter what he has done,His heart is in the right Place.
Retire the name entirilly! A New National Patriotic Hero is needed!
To
Yes Time for him to retire !He has done enough Damage..New Blood is needed
No ! He may be wrong, but he is Captain America.
No ! He is doing the right thing.
Retire the name entirilly! A New National Patriotic Hero is needed!
And possibly split the last one to the old option and "Retire the name entirely. A 'National Patriotic Hero' is a bad idea!"
ETA: Then please don't assume that everyone who opposes you is crazy. In fact, please ignore them rather than tarring everyone with that brush.Infer because someone doesnt agree with me or my views that they are crazy .If it came across like that,I am Sorry I apoligize. However I have doubts about People Left or right who seem to hate America be it in the Fictional MU or the real World. I think Steve should have given more thought to his answers and reactions and not only asked MORE Questions but the RIGHT Questions Like "How can I influance the Inevitible SHRA ?" Or " How can I make the Public and the Goverment understand? How can I understand THEIR Concerns Better and reassure them?And my Fellow heroes as well?"See what I am getting at?
Jeff-E
08-30-2006, 04:30 PM
First personally I have no problem with a replacement for Cap as long as he represents what Cap used to. The ideals of the nation, however this needs to be updated to the CURRENT ideals of the nation. Cap is out of touch and written as such, and its actually getting worse. I realize the "Man out of Time" angle is part of Cap, but it's grown old. I personally would like to see a replacement who is more in touch with the current climate of the US populus, it could make for some interesting stories, there is no need to kill Rogers but maybe he should take a vacation or something for a while. Last note, as far as people argueing that Cap hasn't gotten more and more violent, well are you reading the same stories the rest of us are? I'm not trying to be rude, but this isn't some hidden nugget of information, for years now they have been addressing Cap's "Anger Issues" and how he is using violent means more and more. It's addressed in older issues of Avengers and in Secret War, and somewhere else... however I don't remember the specific example right off the top of my head sorry for that.
Lastly why is it when it comes to Ironman there's this "mob" mentallity of basically stringing him up by his nose hairs and setting fire to the soles of his feet, (ok that's a little exaggerated but read some of the other CW related forums here and people really are calling for Tony's blood) but when it comes to Cap no matter what he does people will defend him to the death? I don't understand that. IMO Cap has made wrong move after wrong move as far as CW is concerned and still people glorify and romanticize him and his war on the U.S. and its laws. If the purpose of the Secret Avengers is not to bring the fight to the lawmakers, and the government, then what is the point of them?
jester1436
08-30-2006, 04:51 PM
Lastly why is it when it comes to Ironman there's this "mob" mentallity of basically stringing him up by his nose hairs and setting fire to the soles of his feet, (ok that's a little exaggerated but read some of the other CW related forums here and people really are calling for Tony's blood) but when it comes to Cap no matter what he does people will defend him to the death?
That's pretty blatantly untrue, considering there seems to be a consistant balance of posters that do the same thing on both sides of registration argument. People are going to be biased and obviously heavily so, when people defend either character and demonize the other. A lot of people have blinders on both sides.
spyridona
08-30-2006, 05:13 PM
Detailed in the Declaration of Independence is The Right to Life..Something the Hulks Rampage and the New Warriors recklessness have denied over 626+ People.The SHRA Or Something Like it is long over due in the MU.
Dude, just wondering. How can you stand to be a comic fan for so long?
Jeff-E
08-30-2006, 05:32 PM
Dude, just wondering. How can you stand to be a comic fan for so long?
I dont have the right to speak for Makavelian, but I have the ability so I'm gonna try to. This is the same arguement I've asked people over and over again, especially about Spidey, people are upset because he's wearing different clothes right now, and that he unmasked. Well comics evolve with the times Spidey no longer tells MJ that she's "one hep cat whom he digs in a far out way". The times change, stories evolve and change, why is it so difficult to understand some of us think that these rampages in comics need to be adressed and the problems surrounding them updated? Some of us no longer want to just ignore it when there is massive property damage, or when someone gets killed we want to see the reprecussions of it. Plus some of these characters are Icons and rolemodels so isn't it a good thing to show them standing up and taking responsibility for their actions. Isn't that a good message to send to people.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 05:45 PM
I dont have the right to speak for Makavelian, but I have the ability so I'm gonna try to. This is the same arguement I've asked people over and over again, especially about Spidey, people are upset because he's wearing different clothes right now, and that he unmasked. Well comics evolve with the times Spidey no longer tells MJ that she's "one hep cat whom he digs in a far out way". The times change, stories evolve and change, why is it so difficult to understand some of us think that these rampages in comics need to be adressed and the problems surrounding them updated? Some of us no longer want to just ignore it when there is massive property damage, or when someone gets killed we want to see the reprecussions of it. Plus some of these characters are Icons and rolemodels so isn't it a good thing to show them standing up and taking responsibility for their actions. Isn't that a good message to send to people.
I live near Washington DC. I lost several Neigbhors on 9/11/2001. They either worked at the Pentagon or were flying on the Plane headed to what they thought was a Happy California Holiday..The Pleasure Of Hulk Smash or X Men wrecking the Pentagon always elusive to me became intolerible that day. started looking more critically at pop culture and comics that day.:(
spyridona
08-30-2006, 06:44 PM
I live near Washington DC. I lost several Neigbhors on 9/11/2001. They either worked at the Pentagon or were flying on the Plane headed to what they thought was a Happy California Holiday..The Pleasure Of Hulk Smash or X Men wrecking the Pentagon always elusive to me became intolerible that day. started looking more critically at pop culture and comics that day.:(
Thank you for answering. I wasn't trying to be rude, it just seemed like you felt very strongly for heroes to becalled to responsablity and you bring up so much. It's obvious you enjoyed comics for a long time, so I was curious since destorying cities (with no casualities in the silver and bronze age!) was a comic norm. That explains a lot and I understand where you're coming from, now.
One of my biggest concerns though is that they will actually have less accountability in terms of calateral damage.
We've seen in NA that Hill does not have the highest value where human life is concerned.
We've seen Hill outright commit murder. If she gets some protection as far as killing people, and heroes automatically get that too if they're doing things under SHIELD orders, a situation might be created where they can literally get away with murder.
I haven't seen any accountability for the Savage Land yet. Whereas we're seeing Speedball getting as much accountability as humanly possible. I'm just not as convinced as some that the registration will bring about more accountability... not while a murdere is the one calling the shots at thet top.
Jeff-E
08-30-2006, 07:16 PM
One of my biggest concerns though is that they will actually have less accountability in terms of calateral damage.
We've seen in NA that Hill does not have the highest value where human life is concerned.
We've seen Hill outright commit murder. If she gets some protection as far as killing people, and heroes automatically get that too if they're doing things under SHIELD orders, a situation might be created where they can literally get away with murder.
I haven't seen any accountability for the Savage Land yet. Whereas we're seeing Speedball getting as much accountability as humanly possible. I'm just not as convinced as some that the registration will bring about more accountability... not while a murdere is the one calling the shots at thet top.
True, but one thing about this keeps getting left out. Hill is leader of a military organization. It sucks, but as the head of a militant faction recognized under whatever statutes govern the MU she has the right to make the judgement call that may kill a few in order to save the many. This ability is not possessed by your average guy in a look at me, look at me costume. Now I havent read my NA issues in a while so that's the best reasoning I have for anything right now, however I've been a fan of Hill's since the begining, and I cant remember her killing anyone in the Savage Land. However I am 150% sure that she didn't kill anyone, just because. I'm sure it was part of a military action and while the loss of life is tradgic it's still her responsibility to decide if that much force is necessary.
I know I can hear it now, does that mean that as long as its a military action it's ok to kill Americans or something along those lines, the rants have already started in my head. So we're just going to get it out of the way, yes as an American I do place a higher value on American lives as opposed to foriegn lives. That maybe mean, or wrong, but I'm an American and thats just the way I feel.
True, but one thing about this keeps getting left out. Hill is leader of a military organization. It sucks, but as the head of a militant faction recognized under whatever statutes govern the MU she has the right to make the judgement call that may kill a few in order to save the many. This ability is not possessed by your average guy in a look at me, look at me costume. Now I havent read my NA issues in a while so that's the best reasoning I have for anything right now, however I've been a fan of Hill's since the begining, and I cant remember her killing anyone in the Savage Land. However I am 150% sure that she didn't kill anyone, just because. I'm sure it was part of a military action and while the loss of life is tradgic it's still her responsibility to decide if that much force is necessary.
I know I can hear it now, does that mean that as long as its a military action it's ok to kill Americans or something along those lines, the rants have already started in my head. So we're just going to get it out of the way, yes as an American I do place a higher value on American lives as opposed to foriegn lives. That maybe mean, or wrong, but I'm an American and thats just the way I feel.
It's absolutely true that Hill is part of the military. If you read NA #6 I'd argue her bombing those people was not necessary (rather it was more convinient as it cleans up any lose ends). But regardless she is military and that does give her some level of protection.
But again, if heroes are suddenly taking orders from SHIELD, do they get the same protection. And if something does happen, does the government conceal it so that the government doesn't look bad?
The more I think about it, the more I see a hero registration as giving them protection from accountability. If the heroes become an extension of a military organization, to a degree they get more a liscence to kill than your average ordinary citizen. The can simply use the excuse that they were following orders, and allow some higher up in government to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. Maybe this is just an irrational fear on my part, I don't know... but it's something to think.
Jeff-E
08-30-2006, 07:30 PM
It's absolutely true that Hill is part of the military. If you read NA #6 I'd argue her bombing those people was not necessary (rather it was more convinient as it cleans up any lose ends). But regardless she is military and that does give her some level of protection.
But again, if heroes are suddenly taking orders from SHIELD, do they get the same protection. And if something does happen, does the government conceal it so that the government doesn't look bad?
The more I think about it, the more I see a hero registration as giving them protection from accountability. If the heroes become an extension of a military organization, to a degree they get more a liscence to kill than your average ordinary citizen. The can simply use the excuse that they were following orders, and allow some higher up in government to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. Maybe this is just an irrational fear on my part, I don't know... but it's something to think.
I would think it's more like cops. If a cop kills someone it has to be decided if it was a clean kill or not by a commettee. That's part of the accountability... IMO
Alpow
08-30-2006, 07:35 PM
True, but one thing about this keeps getting left out. Hill is leader of a military organization. It sucks, but as the head of a militant faction recognized under whatever statutes govern the MU she has the right to make the judgement call that may kill a few in order to save the many.
If the US started using tactical nuclear ordinance to take out insurgents in Iraq I think they might get accused of being a tad excessive.
I cant remember her killing anyone in the Savage Land.
She killed the rogue shield agents who were mining in the savage land along with the innocent slave labour they were using and the Avengers only survived because Stark was able to get his shield up in time.
The rogue agents in question had a couple of choppers, some trucks and probably a dozen or so men at most (the Avengers were confident they could take them out), there was absolutely no reason to over react in the manner Hill did unless she was so unwilling to risk a single one of her agents that she sacrifice the mission objectives (discover what was going on) and dozens of innocent human lives.
If that is how she thinks she has no business being in charge of a military organisation.
However I am 150% sure that she didn't kill anyone, just because. I'm sure it was part of a military action and while the loss of life is tradgic it's still her responsibility to decide if that much force is necessary.
The only reason to wipe out the entire area was to cover up what was going on there; she sacrificed innocent human lives and a chance to get to the bottom of corruption in Shield in order to save herself embarrassment.
That maybe mean, or wrong, but I'm an American and thats just the way I feel.
Got a ratio on how many of us less valuable fellows equal an American?
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:43 PM
;) Wont that be one more Level of oversight ? I mean Iron Man ,Reed Richards ,Thor .......They wont stand by if they go too far.. Iron Man had a HUGE Clash with SHEILD over their wanting Starks Company to make nothing but weapons for SHEILD for example. While IM has slacked up to make some weapons I dont think he would stand for SHEILD Getting the EXtrimes (did I spell that right?) virus ..I dont know if Tony even knows that the Goverment has gained Attlians Sacred Crytals ..If and when he finds out I think he will Push with all his influance for their swift return reconizing not onl.y the threat of war but the Twin Dangers of An Accident with the Terrigen Mists over say a large population area and the damage to Inhuman Society as a Whole...
Jeff-E
08-30-2006, 07:44 PM
Got a ratio on how many of us less valuable fellows equal an American?
Nope not right off hand, but let me know where you are from so I can figure the exchange rate?
Now sorry my opinion offends you but as long as people are bound and determined to paint the U.S. govenment as demons on Earth, and refuse to look at anything other than as the bleakest situation imagineable I will continue, I love my country, and it's people and Marvel always tries to play off the "real world" angle, therefore I will continue to defend, I will continue to try to justify or figure out the rationale behind whatever action has caused whatever rukus at the time.
Weirdopky
08-30-2006, 07:47 PM
Markavian, I know this is a debate about Cap, so I'll keep it that way. If you think Cap should be replaced, why is it that you have him as an avatar? That's been confusing me since the minute I read in your title that you are "Pro-Registration." Doesn't that contradict everything? I mean, you're pro-reg, but you have the icon of the leader of the anti-reg forces. Somebody tell me if I'm crazy.
Actually, let me edit that. Forget what I said, I just realized that that's US agent, right? Let me know, so I can stop being so confused.
;) Wont that be one more Level of oversight ? I mean Iron Man ,Reed Richards ,Thor .......They wont stand by if they go too far.. Iron Man had a HUGE Clash with SHEILD over their wanting Starks Company to make nothing but weapons for SHEILD for example. While IM has slacked up to make some weapons I dont think he would stand for SHEILD Getting the EXtrimes (did I spell that right?) virus ..I dont know if Tony even knows that the Goverment has gained Attlians Sacred Crytals ..If and when he finds out I think he will Push with all his influance for their swift return reconizing not onl.y the threat of war but the Twin Dangers of An Accident with the Terrigen Mists over say a large population area and the damage to Inhuman Society as a Whole...
The thing is because of the regisration, if Tony and company don't like anything Hill does there's nothing he can do about it. He's created a situation where the entire superhuman community is now subordinate to SHIELD... for better or for worse, he's not got to live with the consequences. The time to say no to Hill was PRIOR to it becoming a law.
Nope not right off hand, but let me know where you are from so I can figure the exchange rate?
Now sorry my opinion offends you but as long as people are bound and determined to paint the U.S. govenment as demons on Earth, and refuse to look at anything other than as the bleakest situation imagineable I will continue, I love my country, and it's people and Marvel always tries to play off the "real world" angle, therefore I will continue to defend, I will continue to try to justify or figure out the rationale behind whatever action has caused whatever rukus at the time.
Well, if it makes things easier for you SHIELD isn't the US government. They're technically the UN.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:52 PM
If the US started using tactical nuclear ordinance to take out insurgents in Iraq I think they might get accused of being a tad excessive.
She killed the rogue shield agents who were mining in the savage land along with the innocent slave labour they were using and the Avengers only survived because Stark was able to get his shield up in time.
The rogue agents in question had a couple of choppers, some trucks and probably a dozen or so men at most (the Avengers were confident they could take them out), there was absolutely no reason to over react in the manner Hill did unless she was so unwilling to risk a single one of her agents that she sacrifice the mission objectives (discover what was going on) and dozens of innocent human lives.
If that is how she thinks she has no business being in charge of a military organisation.
The only reason to wipe out the entire area was to cover up what was going on there; she sacrificed innocent human lives and a chance to get to the bottom of corruption in Shield in order to save herself embarrassment.
Got a ratio on how many of us less valuable fellows equal an American?
So we can assume you arent an American? Anyway SHEILD isnt an American Organzation anymore .its a "United Nations" Outfit ::Gags:: But Hill under Military Law was well within her rights to try and minmize her Peoples death or injuries even at the cost of Collateral damage. If someone was to raise the Issue up the Chain of Command there is a chance she could be court martailed but the Evidence would have to be very damning . Innocents die in Wars and police attacks all the time. If the Authories can show a Target was in the area then its almost impossible to gain a successful prosecution.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 07:57 PM
Markavian, I know this is a debate about Cap, so I'll keep it that way. If you think Cap should be replaced, why is it that you have him as an avatar? That's been confusing me since the minute I read in your title that you are "Pro-Registration." Doesn't that contradict everything? I mean, you're pro-reg, but you have the icon of the leader of the anti-reg forces. Somebody tell me if I'm crazy.
Actually, let me edit that. Forget what I said, I just realized that that's US agent, right? Let me know, so I can stop being so confused.
I have Cap when he still represented The American People Not Cap who is attacking SHEILD and making NYPD Cruisers flip over into a pile up..:)am not sure if its Agent or Cap ..I saw it looked so hard ass I decided it fit my mood lol
So we can assume you arent an American? Anyway SHEILD isnt an American Organzation anymore .its a "United Nations" Outfit ::Gags:: But Hill under Military Law was well within her rights to try and minmize her Peoples death or injuries even at the cost of Collateral damage. If someone was to raise the Issue up the Chain of Command there is a chance she could be court martailed but the Evidence would have to be very damning . Innocents die in Wars and police attacks all the time. If the Authories can show a Target was in the area then its almost impossible to gain a successful prosecution.
Well, here's the thing... this really did seem like a pretty cake walk mission. A few SHIELD guys with a few trucks and chopper.
Is Hill really so incompetent that she can't handle something this relatively small without resorting to bombing? If that's the case, she should have just accepted the heroes earlier invitation to help as they could have likely cleaned up the mess with minimal (perhap ZERO) casualties and a bunch of prisoners to boot.
Assuming of course that's what Hill wanted. Which isn't likely. All theory on my part, but I think she bombed the place to eliminate any evidence that SHIELD was connected to what was going on.
Weirdopky
08-30-2006, 08:30 PM
I have Cap when he still represented The American People Not Cap who is attacking SHEILD and making NYPD Cruisers flip over into a pile up..:)am not sure if its Agent or Cap ..I saw it looked so hard ass I decided it fit my mood lol
OK. Thanks for clearin' that up.
Arawn
08-30-2006, 09:23 PM
The US Goverment and SHEILD The SHRA and Iron Mans Actions are to a very real event: Stamford.Its not like they are doing this for no reason at all.Stamford showed the need to change how Superpowrered Vigilantes operate in the USA. Why souldnt they be licensed and trained if they are going to be arresting people and fighting? We Register Cars and Drivers must have Licenses . And thats of People who wont be using Violence. To e a Private Eye or a Police officer you must pass muster and have some sorts of training, so why not superheroes going through something simular? And as for Caps actions There were a lot of avenues open to him beyond going the Terrorist route. Court challenges and Political discussions..He chose violence thus losing all credibility.:)
A national disaster does not excuse the violation of civil rights. Sorry people dieing, however tragically, does not make it ok to arrest innocents. Using live rounds on children (see Runaways/Young Avengers Civil War 1) is a war crime. The US government, in an effort to ennact an illeagal law, has committed war crimes against US citizens.
They knew there were children in the plane, they fired live rounds because of 1 andriod. This is an illeagal and imorral act. Yet you still cry to the trees that its ok cause shield did it.
The "Their only Supers, it isn't like their real people." is a paraphrase of an excuse a convicted nazi war criminal used when he claimed he only killed Jews. And yes I hope people are insulted because it's personally insulting anyone tries to justify this type of thought process even in fantasy. Too many try to emulate fantasy...
Haunt
08-30-2006, 09:33 PM
A national disaster does not excuse the violation of civil rights. Sorry people dieing, however tragically, does not make it ok to arrest innocents. Using live rounds on children (see Runaways/Young Avengers Civil War 1) is a war crime. The US government, in an effort to ennact an illeagal law, has committed war crimes against US citizens.
They knew there were children in the plane, they fired live rounds because of 1 andriod. This is an illeagal and imorral act. Yet you still cry to the trees that its ok cause shield did it.
The "Their only Supers, it isn't like their real people." is a paraphrase of an excuse a convicted nazi war criminal used when he claimed he only killed Jews. And yes I hope people are insulted because it's personally insulting anyone tries to justify this type of thought process even in fantasy. Too many try to emulate fantasy...
we're not comparing jews to fictional characters now are we? Jewish people had the right to live. there is no right to wear spandex and beat on other people.
we're not comparing jews to fictional characters now are we? Jewish people had the right to live. there is no right to wear spandex and beat on other people.
True, but a problem with the registration is that it effects people that DON'T want to dress is spandex and beat people up.
Jessica Jones for example. Her biggest problem with the registration is that SHIELD potentially has the right to FORCE her to dress in spandex and beat people up when that's clearly something she has no interest in anymore.
Markavian
08-30-2006, 09:52 PM
A national disaster does not excuse the violation of civil rights. Sorry people dieing, however tragically, does not make it ok to arrest innocents. Using live rounds on children (see Runaways/Young Avengers Civil War 1) is a war crime. The US government, in an effort to ennact an illeagal law, has committed war crimes against US citizens.
They knew there were children in the plane, they fired live rounds because of 1 andriod. This is an illeagal and imorral act. Yet you still cry to the trees that its ok cause shield did it.
The "Their only Supers, it isn't like their real people." is a paraphrase of an excuse a convicted nazi war criminal used when he claimed he only killed Jews. And yes I hope people are insulted because it's personally insulting anyone tries to justify this type of thought process even in fantasy. Too many try to emulate fantasy...First off they arent Unarmed Children nor normal ones..They are quite capible of defending themselves and bench pressing a tank in some cases . And Illegal Law? Thats as big as an Oxymoron as say Paficist Klingnon... The SHRA is the Law of the Land and from What the Latest Issue of Wizard says it looks like it will stay so.And Yes Civil Rights CAN Be Suspended and Adjusted in times of National Crisis ..Whatever is needed until safety and order and Law are restored so Peoples rights arent Violated by someone Out for Higher ratings who Provokes a Super Battle next to a Middle school :(. And Use of Force? Its how we won WW II yanno?
Subotai
08-30-2006, 10:29 PM
I Never said he was asked. I said he COULD have testifyed and gotten his POV across.Maybe Shaped the SHRA but no he sat on his hands and now there is hell to pay. And it was NAMOR Who wanted the Illuminati Membership to stay small.Tony Reed and the others agreed to satisfy the Hot head of Atlantis.As for your accusations about War profiteering and the so called industrial military complex : Capitalism Beats all other systems hands down and is Great :D
Jesus, I think I'd worry about you if I knew you. But I wouldn't expect a guy who cracks Rodney King jokes to care about the true cost of war on humanity.
The Shadow
08-30-2006, 11:27 PM
I'm in the NO crowd too.
They did it once and I read it when it was new. Cap was stripped of his costume for not followin orders. There's no need to revist the same story again.
The Shadow
08-30-2006, 11:30 PM
Jewish people had the right to live. there is no right to wear spandex and beat on other people.
:confused: I honestly don't believe it... I agree... with :confused: Haunt.
We need a fainting emoticon!!! :D
The comparrisons aren't the same. Comparing one groups right to life with someone else's forced registration isn't very comparable at all.
daniel2099
08-30-2006, 11:37 PM
did't they give steve full rights to captain america after the last time
did't they give steve full rights to captain america after the last time
I believe so. They did try giving Walker the Captain America identity again in Invaders if I'm not mistaken, but they never tried taking it away from Cap. So I guess it's still his.
If they want a new symbol, maybe they'd have to just come up with some other hero identity to be their national mascot.
Mr.Musgrave
08-31-2006, 02:17 AM
If they want a new symbol, maybe they'd have to just come up with some other hero identity to be their national mascot.
Like the Red Skull perhaps. :p
Alpow
08-31-2006, 03:21 AM
So we can assume you arent an American?
You certainly can.
Anyway SHEILD isnt an American Organzation anymore .its a "United Nations" Outfit ::Gags::
Semantic quibbles aside it is stacked with Americans, so it obviously this extremely precious lives that would have been risked, I'm not sure what the going conversion rate for American to savage lander is but maybe shield should start using other people to make the risks more acceptable.
But Hill under Military Law was well within her rights to try and minmize her Peoples death or injuries even at the cost of Collateral damage.
And again, if the real world US started nuking parts of Iraq they would get an unfavourable reaction, you don't seem to understand that something can be legal and still be wrong.
If someone was to raise the Issue up the Chain of Command there is a chance she could be court martailed but the Evidence would have to be very damning . Innocents die in Wars and police attacks all the time. If the Authories can show a Target was in the area then its almost impossible to gain a successful prosecution.
I very much doubt Police would call in an airstrike to deal with a few hostage takers.
Francis
08-31-2006, 04:48 AM
First off they arent Unarmed Children nor normal ones..They are quite capible of defending themselves and bench pressing a tank in some cases .
In some cases. And are you really saying that because someone isn't normal, their rights can be stripped?
And Illegal Law? Thats as big as an Oxymoron as say Paficist Klingnon...
I.e. simply unusual. A law that is struck down for being Unconstitutional is an illegal law. And there are ample grounds to consider the SHRA unconstitutional.
And Yes Civil Rights CAN Be Suspended and Adjusted in times of National Crisis
Which leads to an interesting circular situtation when the thing causing the National Crisis is the SHRA. Not the Speedball issue which caused a national panic. Handled sensibly, that would have been a tradgedy but it was turned into a crisis by the SHRA.
..Whatever is needed until safety and order and Law are restored so Peoples rights arent Violated by someone Out for Higher ratings who Provokes a Super Battle next to a Middle school :(.
If they do that, they can be arrested for aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, manslaughter, and a whole list of other offences probably including property damage. Then arrested and put into one of the supervillain prisons rather than somewhere guaranteed to send them mad. Absolutely no need to have a new SHRA as such a situation can be handled under the existing law.
And regarding your dislike for civillian casualties, Markavian, I tend to agree (although for less personal reasons). However, Speedball is way behind Hill on my list of such characters. Murder is even worse when it is sanctioned. And mass imprisonment in the negative zone is almost guaranteed to create new supervillains (partly through going mad, partly through being pissed off, and partly through a combination of the two). Thereby massively increasing the danger level - as SHIELD playing hardball immediately has also done.
-S-Man-
08-31-2006, 04:58 AM
Steve Rogers is Captain America and always will be...even though others will try to imitate him but will never get close. Its like every other martial artists trying to pass themselves as Bruce Lee when he died or Elvis impersonators...They're never quite the same.
If one day Steve does die I would like Elijah Bradley to take on the suit and boots na dthe shield if it isn't buried alongside the Captain. I acknowledge that the Patriot has a long way to go before he could even imagine taking on the position but Civil War will be a good lesson/ experience.
Jeff-E
08-31-2006, 05:15 AM
In some cases. And are you really saying that because someone isn't normal, their rights can be stripped?
But no one's rights, liberties, or freedom are being stripped with the SHRA, they are only stripped if you disobey the law, and that is the same with just about any law, you disobey your rights, and freedom, and liberties are stripped.
I.e. simply unusual. A law that is struck down for being Unconstitutional is an illegal law. And there are ample grounds to consider the SHRA unconstitutional.
The draft is more "unconstitutional" than the SHRA, in the instance of a draft you are guarenteed to go to war, in the SHRA you may just be registered, if your power won't help with the threat, you don't have to join in. If it will help, well, isn't that why they become hero's in the first place to help out?
Which leads to an interesting circular situtation when the thing causing the National Crisis is the SHRA. Not the Speedball issue which caused a national panic. Handled sensibly, that would have been a tradgedy but it was turned into a crisis by the SHRA.
It wasn't the SHRA that turned it in to a crisis it was the situation surrounding Stamford, and the famous last words of the NW that ensured it was concidered a crisis. They created the publics disdane for the hero's, not necessarily the incident. Had the NW said something like "Lets do some good here. We'll take them in to justice" or something cheezy like that, people would have been sympathetic towards their cause, as it were they said lets do it for ratings ensuring peoples loathing for the lack of control around their lives due to costumed individuals.
If they do that, they can be arrested for aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, manslaughter, and a whole list of other offences probably including property damage. Then arrested and put into one of the supervillain prisons rather than somewhere guaranteed to send them mad. Absolutely no need to have a new SHRA as such a situation can be handled under the existing law.
And regarding your dislike for civillian casualties, Markavian, I tend to agree (although for less personal reasons). However, Speedball is way behind Hill on my list of such characters. Murder is even worse when it is sanctioned. And mass imprisonment in the negative zone is almost guaranteed to create new supervillains (partly through going mad, partly through being pissed off, and partly through a combination of the two). Thereby massively increasing the danger level - as SHIELD playing hardball immediately has also done.
Why is everyone so shocked by the Negative Zone jailing situation. Superprisons with less than humane standards have been around for 20 or 30 years, the Vault(s) the Raft, the Ant Farm, the Igloo or whatever the one in the Arctic was called, and in each of these there has been massive breakouts and massive casulties resulted so why not try something different this time. The Negative Zone does not make criminals, the folks disobeying the law makes them criminals. If they want to fight the law, why not go on TV and Radio, and hold press confrences, and strike deals with cell phone carriers, to get public opinion on their side? Instead they flock to these old abandoned warehouses and bunkers that look like the ones Mysterio used in the 60's and 70's and hiding out like that gives the perception that they are criminals.
Jmacq1
08-31-2006, 05:40 AM
He didn't say the Negative Zone made "criminals". He said the Negative Zone makes supervillains. And if there's no difference to you, I really don't understand how you can read and enjoy comics, when the average superhero breaks about a dozen laws an issue.
Honestly, if being a "criminal" is all it takes to turn someone into a "villain", then I guess Martin Luther King and Gandhi were two horrible "villains". Or George Washington and the rest of America's founding fathers, for that matter.
Which brings me back to my earlier point that all those Pro-reggers conveniently ignored:
You -really- think it's "right" that the Pro-Reg side would treat someone like Captain America worse than someone like Charles Manson or even freakin' Rudolph Hess? They're taking people that have saved the entire world, if not the entire universe several times between them, and putting them into one of the most hellish prisons imaginable, regardless of whether or not they actually hurt anybody by not registering.
But I get it, anything that happened before "Civil War" #1 just doesn't exist for some of you folks. Suddenly all these people that have risked their lives for the people of the world time and time again with no thought of reward are evil and contemptible, and should be lumped in with Dr. Doom and the Red Skull...."because they broke the law!"
Gimme a break....
AllisterH
08-31-2006, 05:49 AM
If they do that, they can be arrested for aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, manslaughter, and a whole list of other offences probably including property damage. Then arrested and put into one of the supervillain prisons rather than somewhere guaranteed to send them mad. Absolutely no need to have a new SHRA as such a situation can be handled under the existing law.
That's one of the problems of the current situation. If there is no registration of heroes and a hero screws up, exactly how do you hold them responsible if their identity is secret?
As for the unconstitutional part of the law, unless marvel has changed the laws of America without us knowing, the Super Hero registration act is definitely LEGAL and wouldn't even reach the Supreme Court (and there would be no consitutional challenge as I can't envision ANY courts ruling that heroes have a constitutional right to be vigilantes).
If this is a Super Human registration act, again, precendence HAS been set before with regard to the discrimination of the draft/selective services. In the real world, the Supreme Court has ruled that the DoD *CAN* discriminate if it could show that the requirements of the job would disqualify most of the women of America.
Furthermore, the actual constitutional challenge about the DRAFT itself has ALWAYS (to my knowledge, this has been challenged 3 times) resulted in the Supreme Court saying "Yes, the DRAFT does not violate the constitution. The government HAS the right to force you into the army".
Like I said, this is a slam dunk case for the pro-side given the above two rulings. A smart Cap would simply argue/legislate for the actual registration act to be tied to the DRAFT itself. There, you can't have the government simply *forcing* metahumans to do things as the DRAFT would need to be authorized by Congress and if Congress actually can agree that the DRAFT needs to be implemented, the situation is "BEYOND SERIOUS" and said metahumans should already be at the front lines.
Markavian
08-31-2006, 06:10 AM
In some cases. And are you really saying that because someone isn't normal, their rights can be stripped?
(Whewn someone can bench press a Police car we can assume that they will be treated differently as a matter of course.)
I.e. simply unusual. A law that is struck down for being Unconstitutional is an illegal law. And there are ample grounds to consider the SHRA unconstitutional.
(The Law hasnt been struck down as of yet . From comparing it to other Laws such as Selective Service and he Patriot Acts I & II And the National Security Act of 1952 Its far milder than those laws and less discrimitory)
Which leads to an interesting circular situtation when the thing causing the National Crisis is the SHRA. Not the Speedball issue which caused a national panic. Handled sensibly, that would have been a tradgedy but it was turned into a crisis by the SHRA.
(The SHRA Caused the Blowing up of stamford for Cheap TV ratings? Thanks I didnt know that)
If they do that, they can be arrested for aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, manslaughter, and a whole list of other offences probably including property damage. Then arrested and put into one of the supervillain prisons rather than somewhere guaranteed to send them mad. Absolutely no need to have a new SHRA as such a situation can be handled under the existing law.
(Thats why the SHRA and training is needed.Once Certified and trained as Either Peace officers or Military Personal Or even Inteligence Gathering agents or Bounty Hunters such as Two Gun Kid they Gain both a Measure of Competency and Legal protecions or one would hope,As well as goverment backup.)
And regarding your dislike for civillian casualties, Markavian, I tend to agree (although for less personal reasons). However, Speedball is way behind Hill on my list of such characters. Murder is even worse when it is sanctioned. And mass imprisonment in the negative zone is almost guaranteed to create new supervillains (partly through going mad, partly through being pissed off, and partly through a combination of the two). Thereby massively increasing the danger level - as SHIELD playing hardball immediately has also done.( I am ambivilant about Hills actions in NA . I am thinking Brendis had her kill those natives and rouge agents just to establish her as a bad azz which if true it was a lazy plot device in my book. But People get killed for far less than what those Rouges were doing both in the MU and here.I reconize death is a part of life and often to win victories must be paid for in blood but i despise "It would be a cool scene to blow all these people up to show how evil the military industrial complex is!" thinking that pervades many writers thinking at Marvel these days,)
Markavian
08-31-2006, 06:23 AM
You certainly can.
(Good for you )
Semantic quibbles aside it is stacked with Americans, so it obviously this extremely precious lives that would have been risked, I'm not sure what the going conversion rate for American to savage lander is but maybe shield should start using other people to make the risks more acceptable.
( I dont trust anything with the UN label attached to it. SHEILD didnt have nearly as many problems before they allowed the United Nitwits into their organization But they are what the USA in the MU has to work with so.....)
And again, if the real world US started nuking parts of Iraq they would get an unfavourable reaction, you don't seem to understand that something can be legal and still be wrong.
(The US hasnt used Nukes in over 60 years . And has no Need to on Small bands of terrorists. However Iran and North Korea are possible targets in the Near future.And if we do have to go after those two rouge nation States it will be boh Legal and Right I assure you.)
I very much doubt Police would call in an airstrike to deal with a few hostage takers. Its been Done :May 1985 Pfilidelphia. Radical Black seperatist Group MOVE was holed up in a house 11 members of variying ages 9 to 42 think with Guns refused to vacate the house they were trespassing in.The Mayor ordered an Explosive Device droped on the Roof Via Helicopter. Massive fire started devestasted an entire block.9 of the 11 died.
moonknight2099
08-31-2006, 06:27 AM
He didn't say the Negative Zone made "criminals". He said the Negative Zone makes supervillains. And if there's no difference to you, I really don't understand how you can read and enjoy comics, when the average superhero breaks about a dozen laws an issue.
Honestly, if being a "criminal" is all it takes to turn someone into a "villain", then I guess Martin Luther King and Gandhi were two horrible "villains". Or George Washington and the rest of America's founding fathers, for that matter.
Which brings me back to my earlier point that all those Pro-reggers conveniently ignored:
You -really- think it's "right" that the Pro-Reg side would treat someone like Captain America worse than someone like Charles Manson or even freakin' Rudolph Hess? They're taking people that have saved the entire world, if not the entire universe several times between them, and putting them into one of the most hellish prisons imaginable, regardless of whether or not they actually hurt anybody by not registering.
But I get it, anything that happened before "Civil War" #1 just doesn't exist for some of you folks. Suddenly all these people that have risked their lives for the people of the world time and time again with no thought of reward are evil and contemptible, and should be lumped in with Dr. Doom and the Red Skull...."because they broke the law!"
Gimme a break....
The Pro-Reg side hasn't treated Cap like a villian. When ever a Pro-Reg person has seen him they try to explain their side and why he should stop fighting and join them. He then tells them they are crazy and trys to punch them or just leave. If the Pro-Reg side really treated him like a villian they wouldn't give him the option of joining them every time they see him.
As far as should there be a new Captain America I would say yes. He is not trying to help the contry, he is just fighting the idea of change. He wants things to be like they were before Stamford, but something had to change. I don't understand how the Anti-Reg side thinks should have happend after Stamford. The heroes couldn't just say sorry and things go back to normal. The american people didn't trust heroes any more, so they had to do something.
The new Captain America should be John Walker sents he is currently calling himself that anyway. Plus he has trained to fight like Cap, and right now is more patriotic than Steve. They should rename Steve Captain Stuborn.
Markavian
08-31-2006, 06:32 AM
That's one of the problems of the current situation. If there is no registration of heroes and a hero screws up, exactly how do you hold them responsible if their identity is secret?
As for the unconstitutional part of the law, unless marvel has changed the laws of America without us knowing, the Super Hero registration act is definitely LEGAL and wouldn't even reach the Supreme Court (and there would be no consitutional challenge as I can't envision ANY courts ruling that heroes have a constitutional right to be vigilantes).
If this is a Super Human registration act, again, precendence HAS been set before with regard to the discrimination of the draft/selective services. In the real world, the Supreme Court has ruled that the DoD *CAN* discriminate if it could show that the requirements of the job would disqualify most of the women of America.
Furthermore, the actual constitutional challenge about the DRAFT itself has ALWAYS (to my knowledge, this has been challenged 3 times) resulted in the Supreme Court saying "Yes, the DRAFT does not violate the constitution. The government HAS the right to force you into the army".
Like I said, this is a slam dunk case for the pro-side given the above two rulings. A smart Cap would simply argue/legislate for the actual registration act to be tied to the DRAFT itself. There, you can't have the government simply *forcing* metahumans to do things as the DRAFT would need to be authorized by Congress and if Congress actually can agree that the DRAFT needs to be implemented, the situation is "BEYOND SERIOUS" and said metahumans should already be at the front lines.
I think you are right.Too long Superhumans have ran amuck accountible to no one.Now the SHRA will hopfully change that.There is always the possibility that dome shady politican or Goverment offical may try and manipulate heroes or a Villan may hack SHEILD's Network..But before there was NO Protection if say JJJ printed Daredevils secret identity.Now with Registration it would be a Felony to revel a registered Heroes true name. Thats a degree of protection they NEVER Had before.And I think a good thing.
Nomad
08-31-2006, 06:34 AM
And villains don' think they are above the law...
Haven't we seen time and time again that no one can be cap but steve?
Francis
08-31-2006, 06:39 AM
in the instance of a draft you are guarenteed to go to war, in the SHRA you may just be registered, if your power won't help with the threat, you don't have to join in. If it will help, well, isn't that why they become hero's in the first place to help out?
But the SHRA isn't the Super-Hero Registration Act. It's the Super-Human Registration Act. It isn't just the costumed heroes that have to register (just ask Jessica Jones). And who says that the Marvel American Government (the people who brought you the Mutant Registration Act) are going to be helping out in a way compatable with the beliefs of the heroes. For that matter, the Capes are trying to help out - but what they consider helping may well have massive differences from what the government considers helping. (See Smedley Butler for details).
It wasn't the SHRA that turned it in to a crisis it was the situation surrounding Stamford, and the famous last words of the NW that ensured it was concidered a crisis.
No. That turned it into an absolute disaster - and probably necessitated some sort of crackdown. The SHRA and in particular the implimentation turned it into a crisis.
Why is everyone so shocked by the Negative Zone jailing situation. Superprisons with less than humane standards have been around for 20 or 30 years, the Vault(s) the Raft, the Ant Farm, the Igloo or whatever the one in the Arctic was called, and in each of these there has been massive breakouts and massive casulties resulted so why not try something different this time. The Negative Zone does not make criminals, the folks disobeying the law makes them criminals.
No. The folks changing the law makes those who don't go along with the changes criminals.
And there is a huge difference between a criminal and a villain, particularly in superhero comics. Gandhi was a criminal. MLK was a criminal. Please tell me that both those were villains. Hell, most of the archetypal X-men are criminals for destroying federal property such as Sentinels. Please tell me that that was wrong - and please tell me that after the Sentinels and the Mutant Registration Act, the superpowered community should trust the Marvel government with a new registration act or anything sharper than a toothpick.
However, the Negative Zone turns people insane in such a way as to intensify their negative emotions. If you've just been detained for helping out, you're going to be pretty pissed off and have a range of emotions including "If that's how they treat me when I'm a hero, I might as well be a villain", "I'm going to get revenge on these bastards for imprisoning me for helping them", and a whole range of Magnetoesque sentiments. These all get intensified by the Negative Zone and when they come out with the intensified negative emotions against the society they (quite reasonably) perceive to have wronged them, you get instant supervillains.
If they want to fight the law, why not go on TV and Radio, and hold press confrences, and strike deals with cell phone carriers, to get public opinion on their side?
Because they'd get arrested if they tried - and they haven't been given time to do so. The fighting started before the SHRA had actually been signed (see the Cap exchanges). And after it was signed, SHIELD would crack down on anyone who tried.
Instead they flock to these old abandoned warehouses and bunkers that look like the ones Mysterio used in the 60's and 70's and hiding out like that gives the perception that they are criminals.
They are now criminals whatever the perception says. All freedom fighters are criminals. Whether they are on the wrong side is another matter.
Francis
08-31-2006, 06:57 AM
For the last time, guys, I am not talking about the Super Hero Registration Act. That thing doesn't exist. I am talking about the Super Human Registration Act. I would (depending on the implementation - it's wide open for abuse) support a Super Hero Registration Act. A voluntary system where if someone wanted to swan round in their underwear and beat up badguys, they would have to get Registered and trained.
But this is not what the Marvel Universe has. It is a Super Human Registration Act (sometimes colloquially called the Super Hero Registration Act (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=112261&page=52#778)) Everyone with superpowers needs to register. And I don't play the cards as I wish they were - I play with those on the table. And combine the registration of all with powers with the history of the Mutant Registration Act (which this has done by the back door), and you have serious problems even before you get into SHIELD's implimentation.
And:The new Captain America should be John Walker sents he is currently calling himself that anyway. Plus he has trained to fight like Cap, and right now is more patriotic than Steve.
I thought the suggestions to make John Walker into Cap were satire from the anti-reg side. I didn't ever expect it to be raised as a serious suggestion.
I.Ron Spidey
08-31-2006, 06:57 AM
Which leads to an interesting circular situtation when the thing causing the National Crisis is the SHRA. Not the Speedball issue which caused a national panic. Handled sensibly, that would have been a tradgedy but it was turned into a crisis by the SHRA.
haha, yes
that is exactly right. i was hoping someone would say that. its an interesting situation.
Alpow
08-31-2006, 06:58 AM
Its been Done :May 1985 Pfilidelphia. Radical Black seperatist Group MOVE was holed up in a house 11 members of variying ages 9 to 42 think with Guns refused to vacate the house they were trespassing in.The Mayor ordered an Explosive Device droped on the Roof Via Helicopter. Massive fire started devestasted an entire block.9 of the 11 died.
Which is quite different from ordering the entire neighbourhood destroyed without warning, imagine if not just those criminals had died but another hundred people in the surrounding houses, do you think the Police would have gotten away with it?
What we are talking about here is more akin to the Fed’s deciding that dropping a nuke on Koresh at Waco would have been a good idea, since they caught hell as it was I very much doubt they would have gotten away with levelling the entire compound and killing everybody within deliberately.
Alpow
08-31-2006, 07:06 AM
Furthermore, the actual constitutional challenge about the DRAFT itself has ALWAYS (to my knowledge, this has been challenged 3 times) resulted in the Supreme Court saying "Yes, the DRAFT does not violate the constitution. The government HAS the right to force you into the army".
The argument that the SHRA violates the 13th amendment has much more weight that saying a regular draft constitutes the same.
The regular draft is for a fixed period in peace time or is extended in war time, once your time is done you can go home, get another job and be a civilian living in the place of your choice.
The SHRA means super humans are drafted for life in peace time, they are told where to live (I can’t wait till Jen Walters ends up practicing law in Utah, that is if they don’t decide it’s taking too much time form her other activities and tell her to pack it in) and they are told what their employment is to be for the rest of their lives and there is a fair chance their children will follow them into the forced labour life, that sounds pretty close to involuntary servitude to me.
Your Imaginary Pal
08-31-2006, 07:13 AM
I'm not sure how viable John Walker(US Agent) would be to replace Steve Rogers as CAptain America (again).
His former partner Battlestar(?) was chumming it up with the Anti side. While I know they are not connected at the hip and they don't always agree, I think they might see eye to eye on this issue.
So maybe a new guy could fill in the shoes.
I wouldn't want to see that happen, but I'd be less pleased to see J. Walker reprise the roll of Captain America.
AllisterH
08-31-2006, 07:41 AM
The argument that the SHRA violates the 13th amendment has much more weight that saying a regular draft constitutes the same.
The regular draft is for a fixed period in peace time or is extended in war time, once your time is done you can go home, get another job and be a civilian living in the place of your choice.
The SHRA means super humans are drafted for life in peace time, they are told where to live (I can’t wait till Jen Walters ends up practicing law in Utah, that is if they don’t decide it’s taking too much time form her other activities and tell her to pack it in) and they are told what their employment is to be for the rest of their lives and there is a fair chance their children will follow them into the forced labour life, that sounds pretty close to involuntary servitude to me.
Ah, but that's the problem of living in the MU. In our world, how many times has the US been invaded? Once in the war of 1812 and that was a raid rather than an invasion (a.k.a try and take over the country).
According to marvel, only 13 years have passed since the FF hit the scene. How many times has the US been invaded? We're talking at least once every 6 months yet the marvel US has never restructured its society for this new reality. If the MU's America is going to be constantly invaded, by all rights, the US should be in a damn near constant state of war making your argument moot thus the draft should already be in effect.....Logically thinking of course (which marvel doesn't do a lot of unfortunately....)
As for the issue of whether this is a Super hero or a super human draft, I'm not sure MARVEL knows what it is doing.
We have in Frontline and New Avengers, writers saying that this is a superhuman draft yet the Daily Bugle Special EXPLICITLY mentions that this is a superhero registration act by Jennifer Walters as she personally contrasts it with the proposed Mutant Registration Act.
The problem has always been this for marvel.
If this is a superhero registration act, pretty much 90% of the people (readers and MU citizens) would side with the pro side. Sure, there's the nostalgia factor of the secret identity but intellectually, not one of us is willing to have doctors/lawyers NOT registered.
But if it started out as a superhuman registration act, 90% of the pro side would be on the anti side (for example, I can't see She Hulk being pro if this is a superhuman registration act. Her history of fighting AGAINST the mutant registration act makes no sense otherwise) and thus Marvel couldn't sell the storyline.
So marvel seems intent on having it both ways. Tom B, when the civil war first started explictly mentions that it is a superhero act, but now he's saying its a superhuman act......
Markavian
08-31-2006, 07:57 AM
Ah, but that's the problem of living in the MU. In our world, how many times has the US been invaded? Once in the war of 1812 and that was a raid rather than an invasion (a.k.a try and take over the country).
According to marvel, only 13 years have passed since the FF hit the scene. How many times has the US been invaded? We're talking at least once every 6 months yet the marvel US has never restructured its society for this new reality. If the MU's America is going to be constantly invaded, by all rights, the US should be in a damn near constant state of war making your argument moot thus the draft should already be in effect.....Logically thinking of course (which marvel doesn't do a lot of unfortunately....)
As for the issue of whether this is a Super hero or a super human draft, I'm not sure MARVEL knows what it is doing.
We have in Frontline and New Avengers, writers saying that this is a superhuman draft yet the Daily Bugle Special EXPLICITLY mentions that this is a superhero registration act by Jennifer Walters as she personally contrasts it with the proposed Mutant Registration Act.
The problem has always been this for marvel.
If this is a superhero registration act, pretty much 90% of the people (readers and MU citizens) would side with the pro side. Sure, there's the nostalgia factor of the secret identity but intellectually, not one of us is willing to have doctors/lawyers NOT registered.
But if it started out as a superhuman registration act, 90% of the pro side would be on the anti side (for example, I can't see She Hulk being pro if this is a superhuman registration act. Her history of fighting AGAINST the mutant registration act makes no sense otherwise) and thus Marvel couldn't sell the storyline.
So marvel seems intent on having it both ways. Tom B, when the civil war first started explictly mentions that it is a superhero act, but now he's saying its a superhuman act......Heroes wont be required to Publicly to Unmask . Such would be considered a goverment secret .
Alpow
08-31-2006, 08:10 AM
Ah, but that's the problem of living in the MU. In our world, how many times has the US been invaded? Once in the war of 1812 and that was a raid rather than an invasion (a.k.a try and take over the country).
According to marvel, only 13 years have passed since the FF hit the scene. How many times has the US been invaded? We're talking at least once every 6 months yet the marvel US has never restructured its society for this new reality. If the MU's America is going to be constantly invaded, by all rights, the US should be in a damn near constant state of war making your argument moot thus the draft should already be in effect.....Logically thinking of course (which marvel doesn't do a lot of unfortunately....)
But of course there isn't a draft of the regular civilians so obviously the marvel US isn't really up against the wall.
If there was a regular draft then everything would be above board (although of course I don’t people would accept being drafted for life), tat is exactly the problem here, a minority is being persecuted and he majority is just going to sit back.
If it was a full draft and the majority was in the same boat then things would quickly be sorted.
As for the issue of whether this is a Super hero or a super human draft, I'm not sure MARVEL knows what it is doing.
We have in Frontline and New Avengers, writers saying that this is a superhuman draft yet the Daily Bugle Special EXPLICITLY mentions that this is a superhero registration act by Jennifer Walters as she personally contrasts it with the proposed Mutant Registration Act.
She is wrong the civil war title intro makes it perfectly clear,
"On capitol hill a super human registration act is debated, which would require all those possessing paranormal abilities to register with the government, divulging their true identities to the authorities and submitting to training and sanctioning in the manner of federal agents"
You can't get more canon than the main title and it is right their in black and white and even if it wasn't the weight of evidence is still with it being for all super humans.
So marvel seems intent on having it both ways. Tom B, when the civil war first started explictly mentions that it is a superhero act, but now he's saying its a superhuman act......
So one looks at the evidence and draws the most likely conclusion, it is for all super humans and the heroes who are siding with it are just giving in to public pressure.
At least Jen can give the excuse that she is (or was) under the effects of a mind altering power.
Francis
08-31-2006, 08:26 AM
We have in Frontline and New Avengers, writers saying that this is a superhuman draft yet the Daily Bugle Special EXPLICITLY mentions that this is a superhero registration act by Jennifer Walters as she personally contrasts it with the proposed Mutant Registration Act.
The problem has always been this for marvel.
If this is a superhero registration act, pretty much 90% of the people (readers and MU citizens) would side with the pro side. Sure, there's the nostalgia factor of the secret identity but intellectually, not one of us is willing to have doctors/lawyers NOT registered.
But if it started out as a superhuman registration act, 90% of the pro side would be on the anti side (for example, I can't see She Hulk being pro if this is a superhuman registration act. Her history of fighting AGAINST the mutant registration act makes no sense otherwise) and thus Marvel couldn't sell the storyline.
So marvel seems intent on having it both ways. Tom B, when the civil war first started explictly mentions that it is a superhero act, but now he's saying its a superhuman act......
It's a Super-Human Registration Act. It's Cannon and Tom B is saying it is. The initial drafts for the act probably said that it would be a Super-Hero Registration Act, and Jen's editorial was based on that. And there has probably been deliberate disinformation campaign to keep people thinking that the SHRA is the Super-Hero Registration Act.
In short, Jen's a dupe. She thinks she is supporting a Super-Hero Registration Act and is being used to support a Super-Human Registration Act. I've a feeling she's going to be pissed when she works it out. Either that, or it started out as a Super-Hero Registration Act and has been extended into a Super-Human Registration Act in the draft process (Tony! Exactly how have you been helping matters?). And Jen hasn't caught up with the changes (partly because those responsible for extending it to all Superhumans are trying to keep this secret). Jen's bright - but she can be fooled. And she will dismiss the early reports of the extension as paranoid propoganda. But I want her to then go and read the full text of the act (oh wait - Marvel haven't got any full text anywhere).
There is an extra possibility (although unlikely). It is the Super-Hero Registration Act. But SHIELD are implimenting it as if it was the Super-Human Registration Act. In which case we're in the process of a military coup by SHIELD.
Sandy Hausler
08-31-2006, 09:11 AM
Face it Captain America has lost it.This is a man who once would Negothiate with the Shi'ar for example without going bat poop and attacking everyone he didnt agree with. He Used Reason and Compassion as well as Courage and Combat ability to guide him in his adventures but in the last few years he flies off the handle as much as wolverine.Good thing his Sheild doesnt have a razor edge I say!! He is becomming like any Radical "My cause is just !! I must continue even if people are hurt!!" Whats next for Cap Bombing police Stations and Court Houses ? Will he start disputing elections if Pro SHRA Politicans Win? I think its time someone Like John Walker who surprisingly has a cooler head than Steve Rogers but is just as rough and will better fill the Boots of Captain America without going Concieted Pychotic like Rogers has.Whats all of yours opinions? Please try and keep it Polite towards all other Members ok? This is a debate about a Fictional character and events. No Need to call anyone facists or Communists unless you speak of someone in the comics ,But feel free to compare real world celeberties or historical figures just not members :)
I don't really see that there was ever a period where Cap could negotiate. Even before the Act was passed, SHIELD was shooting at him. After the Act was passed, the best "compromise" he was offered was fall in line and we won't prosecute you. That might have been OK, if all Cap cared about was himself. It was really no skin off his nose. The government already knew his secret identity and so did the rest of the world. But he cared about the rights of others. And, of course, the pro-SHRA people tried to trick him into falling into a trap and attacked immediately, so I don't think he has much reason to trust them. At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that things will be back the way they were. And Cap will be doing what he has always done. Fighting for the people of this country and their freedom.
Polite enought?
Sandy Hausler
The argument that the SHRA violates the 13th amendment has much more weight that saying a regular draft constitutes the same.
The regular draft is for a fixed period in peace time or is extended in war time, once your time is done you can go home, get another job and be a civilian living in the place of your choice.
The SHRA means super humans are drafted for life in peace time, they are told where to live (I can’t wait till Jen Walters ends up practicing law in Utah, that is if they don’t decide it’s taking too much time form her other activities and tell her to pack it in) and they are told what their employment is to be for the rest of their lives and there is a fair chance their children will follow them into the forced labour life, that sounds pretty close to involuntary servitude to me.
Another tricky element is that SHIELD is technically not a branch of the US militarly. It's a UN peace keeping force. So you have a US law drafting people into service for an organzation that's not actually accountable to the US goverment or the US people.
Whether or not it's legal will be decided (hopefully) by the higher courts in the marvel U. But I still submit that this is just not right. If they're going to be drafted, they should be drafted by their coutry for their country.
Markavian
08-31-2006, 09:39 AM
Another tricky element is that SHIELD is technically not a branch of the US militarly. It's a UN peace keeping force. So you have a US law drafting people into service for an organzation that's not actually accountable to the US goverment or the US people.
Whether or not it's legal will be decided (hopefully) by the higher courts in the marvel U. But I still submit that this is just not right. If they're going to be drafted, they should be drafted by their coutry for their country.The UN has Twice in Real Life been shot down from Interfering in the Lives of Americans: in 1998 they attempted to see if they could collect Part of the Fees charged Visitors to "International Heritage Sites" In the USA. And they tried to flex their Muscles on A UN pushed Gun Control effort in which they would gain control over small arms and ammunition manufacture and sales and force Those in possesion of Small arms to register with the UN . That has created a firestorm and rightly so.In recent polls over 60% of Americans dont trust or approve of the UN ..Maybe Cap could play this angle up ? " First they are coming for your Heroes....Then Your Guns!!!" LOL:rolleyes:
Jmacq1
08-31-2006, 09:42 AM
Yeah, I just have to accept SHIELD's involvement as a caveat of the Marvel Universe. Because there's no way in -heck- the US would hand that much power over to an organization that technically doesn't have to do what the US says. -Especially- after they become the most powerful organization on Earth thanks to being in control of the vast majority of Earth's superheroes (if everything went according to plan).
Seriously...what happens the first time the US does something the UN doesn't like, and can reasonably be construed as even mildly "illegal"?
SHIELD sics the United States' own superhumans on them to keep them in line. If the heroes don't agree to do it, then they're criminals and get shipped to the Neg Zone. "Because it's the law" that they must obey. Even if they -didn't- participate in the SHIELD-sponsored overthrow/occupation of the United States, they'd be just as "wrong" as Captain America is now because they'd be -CRIMINALS!- IT'S THE LAW AND MUST BE OBEYED! (Isn't that right, Pro-Reggers?)
I don't think there's a mastermind behind "Civil War" per se, but I would not be at -all- surprised if the "hidden forces" behind SHIELD's apparent corruption and the weirdness in HYDRA that's been reported in New Avengers are using it to create a "One World Order".
Because no one on Earth could stop SHIELD if they had all the US Metas/Heroes under their control. And that very well may be among the reasons Cap doesn't want the act to go through.
Yeah, I just have to accept SHIELD's involvement as a caveat of the Marvel Universe. Because there's no way in -heck- the US would hand that much power over to an organization that technically doesn't have to do what the US says. -Especially- after they become the most powerful organization on Earth thanks to being in control of the vast majority of Earth's superheroes (if everything went according to plan).
Seriously...what happens the first time the US does something the UN doesn't like, and can reasonably be construed as even mildly "illegal"?
SHIELD sics the United States' own superhumans on them to keep them in line. If the heroes don't agree to do it, then they're criminals and get shipped to the Neg Zone. "Because it's the law" that they must obey. Even if they -didn't- participate in the SHIELD-sponsored overthrow/occupation of the United States, they'd be just as "wrong" as Captain America is now because they'd be -CRIMINALS!- IT'S THE LAW AND MUST BE OBEYED! (Isn't that right, Pro-Reggers?)
I don't think there's a mastermind behind "Civil War" per se, but I would not be at -all- surprised if the "hidden forces" behind SHIELD's apparent corruption and the weirdness in HYDRA that's been reported in New Avengers are using it to create a "One World Order".
Because no one on Earth could stop SHIELD if they had all the US Metas/Heroes under their control. And that very well may be among the reasons Cap doesn't want the act to go through.
That would be a sort of ironic situation, wouldn't it? If the UN did something against US interests using SHIELD and the US metahumans, forcing Cap and his side to actually to come to the US reascue.
And imagine the pickle that the pro side would be in such a situation. If they didn't follow SHIELD direction they'd be breaking US law.
It's a potentially ridiculous situation.
The Shadow
08-31-2006, 11:27 AM
Once in the war of 1812 and that was a raid rather than an invasion (a.k.a try and take over the country).
Ahem... as a Canadian history minor and War of 1812 afficianado, Washington was burned to the groud, the British and Canadians got as far inland as New Orleans and good size parts of the upper states were British occupied. The only reason it didn't go further was the British were still battling Napoleon and General Isaac Brock was killed. Otherwise it might have been a different story. In fact the cease fire occured when it was apparent Napoleon was going to be defeated in Russia freeing up all the Britsh land and sea forces. Coinicidence??? ;)
As for the issue of whether this is a Super hero or a super human draft, I'm not sure MARVEL knows what it is doing.
We have in Frontline and New Avengers, writers saying that this is a superhuman draft yet the Daily Bugle Special EXPLICITLY mentions that this is a superhero registration act by Jennifer Walters as she personally contrasts it with the proposed Mutant Registration Act.
Lets not be so hasty here. It's possible Marvel is doing that on purpose. The SHRA was drafted and passed so quickly that its possible, especially with so much news coverage, rumours and misinformation that no one in the general public KNOWS for certain what's happening. The SHRA was a knee jerk reaction to Stamford and things happened so quickly that confusion is bound to occur.
I think Marvel is playing that up.
not one of us is willing to have doctors/lawyers NOT registered.
Yeah... good point.
if it started out as a superhuman registration act, 90% of the pro side would be on the anti side (for example, I can't see She Hulk being pro if this is a superhuman registration act.
See your comment above ;)
She's a registered lawyer... so maybe she sees the importance in it now.
Jmacq1
08-31-2006, 12:13 PM
You know, just a tangential point on all this. Something that's been bugging me about the whole Steve vs. Tony debate:
People keep saying Steve should try to "work within the system" or employ nonviolent protest to try to get the law changed. A valid point that I generally agree might be more in keeping with the Captain America I've spent most of my life reading about, but that's neither here nor there.
My question is this: Why did Tony keep Steve completely in the dark about his plans and the SHRA business? Even to the point of swearing Spider-Man to secrecy about them? If Tony really wanted to get Steve on board with his "vision"....why did he never try to explain that vision to him before the caca hit the rotating blades? Like back when they were presumably good friends?
Did Tony -want- a fight with Cap? I mean, if his "futurist vision" was telling him that Cap would be against the SHRA and would fight against it, why didn't he try using the influence he -used- to have with Steve to sway him in another direction earlier?
Were his protestations that he didn't -want- the SHRA but believed it best to go along with it because it was "inevitable" just a lie and he really -did- want the registration to occur so he could make his "Fifty States Initiative" a reality?
I'm not saying these hypothetical questions are true or not, I'm just seriously wondering why Tony:
A: Was convinced Steve would be a threat, and
B: Wouldn't try to maneuver things to a more favorable position before everything went bad. Seems to me Steve might have been more than willing to work with Tony to mitigate the law before it was passed -if- he knew of it and was asked to -prior- to Hill siccing her dogs of war on him.
The Shadow
08-31-2006, 12:21 PM
Nice post.
My question is this: Why did Tony keep Steve completely in the dark about his plans and the SHRA business? Even to the point of swearing Spider-Man to secrecy about them? If Tony really wanted to get Steve on board with his "vision"....why did he never try to explain that vision to him before the caca hit the rotating blades? Like back when they were presumably good friends?
I'm guessing that he knew Cap would oppose things like forced registration. Back when Steve was stripped of his identity and assumed his role as The Captain it was Tony that had a shield made for Cap... so from back then he knew Cap would oppose being forced to do jobs he didn't agree with and wouldn't support a bill that forced others to fight in his stead.
Did Tony -want- a fight with Cap? I mean, if his "futurist vision" was telling him that Cap would be against the SHRA and would fight against it, why didn't he try using the influence he -used- to have with Steve to sway him in another direction earlier?
Were his protestations that he didn't -want- the SHRA but believed it best to go along with it because it was "inevitable" just a lie and he really -did- want the registration to occur so he could make his "Fifty States Initiative" a reality?
Interesting questions... I hope they get answered!
I'm just seriously wondering why Tony:
A: Was convinced Steve would be a threat
Because he's Captain America. It's like having Wayne Gretzky on your hockey team... you know you have the best, and it gives you an edge! Cap's not only an amazing tactitian and fighter but a huge inspiration too.
The psychological edge of having Cap is a huge advantage too. Look at Peter when he fought Cap... he questioned himself and his actions. When Cap left to help others Peter still made sure his shield was safe! Because he's Captain America... and he not only commands respect but he deserves it!
B: Wouldn't try to maneuver things to a more favorable position before everything went bad. Seems to me Steve might have been more than willing to work with Tony to mitigate the law before it was passed -if- he knew of it and was asked to -prior- to Hill siccing her dogs of war on him.
Agian... hopefully that will be answered too!
Good post with interesting questions!
Jmacq1
08-31-2006, 12:33 PM
Because he's Captain America. It's like having Wayne Gretzky on your hockey team... you know you have the best, and it gives you an edge! Cap's not only an amazing tactitian and fighter but a huge inspiration too.
The psychological edge of having Cap is a huge advantage too. Look at Peter when he fought Cap... he questioned himself and his actions. When Cap left to help others Peter still made sure his shield was safe! Because he's Captain America... and he not only commands respect but he deserves it!
I guess I should have been more clear on the question. :) You're right, but more specifically:
Why did Tony think Steve would be a threat to his plans if he were informed of them previous to the SHRA being passed?
AllisterH
08-31-2006, 12:35 PM
Yeah, I just have to accept SHIELD's involvement as a caveat of the Marvel Universe. Because there's no way in -heck- the US would hand that much power over to an organization that technically doesn't have to do what the US says. -Especially- after they become the most powerful organization on Earth thanks to being in control of the vast majority of Earth's superheroes (if everything went according to plan).
.
That's actually par for the course. Remember, during the Kang War, marvel USA gave control of the country (as did the rest of the world) to the Avengers.
Now, as weird as it sounds, I get the distinct impression in real life that Americans would rather die than have a private organization (no matter how altruistic) be recognized as the leaders of the country.
I always wondered how Captain America could go along with that. Isn't that even more of a betrayal of the American dream?
re: SHIELD
As for whether or not it is an American or UN force, Bendis treats it as a UN force. Even there, it makes me scratch my head in wonderment. There was an issue of Bendis' Daredevil where Fury blackmails the CIA director with the fact that the CIA was operating on American soil (a VERY BIG NO-NO) yet the SHIELD helicarrier was parked right above Langley (home of the CIA)....
OK....WHAT THE HELL WAS BENDIS THINKING IN THAT SCENE?
Jmacq1
08-31-2006, 12:47 PM
That's actually par for the course. Remember, during the Kang War, marvel USA gave control of the country (as did the rest of the world) to the Avengers.
Now, as weird as it sounds, I get the distinct impression in real life that Americans would rather die than have a private organization (no matter how altruistic) be recognized as the leaders of the country.
I always wondered how Captain America could go along with that. Isn't that even more of a betrayal of the American dream?
re: SHIELD
As for whether or not it is an American or UN force, Bendis treats it as a UN force. Even there, it makes me scratch my head in wonderment. There was an issue of Bendis' Daredevil where Fury blackmails the CIA director with the fact that the CIA was operating on American soil (a VERY BIG NO-NO) yet the SHIELD helicarrier was parked right above Langley (home of the CIA)....
OK....WHAT THE HELL WAS BENDIS THINKING IN THAT SCENE?
Simple: SHIELD > The CIA. They basically have carte blanche to go anywhere, and do anything. That's not even a Bendis thing: It's pretty much borne out by SHIELD's entire operating history.
They're basically a plot device that can be used anywhere and for almost any reason. What more could a writer ask for?
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