Byrne/ Claremont tales that never were. [Archive]

fishtaco

08-30-2006, 06:33 AM

Thought you guys might be interested in this. From the Byrne forum.
http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13985&PN=1&totPosts=76

It includes some interesting information about Byrne's plots for Uncanny X-Men. For instance, the Dark Phoenix plot (after the Hellfire Club story) was supposed to last a single issue. It would be followed by a 4-parter with Robot Cyclops, whatever that means.

The biggest what coulda been...
This would be followed by a storyline in which Sabertooth kills Mariko, and Wolverine responds by killing Sabertooth.I've heard almost all of this. Cool. What I didn't know are the issue numbers, and the Cyclops robot (what??). I also didn't know that Sabretooth was going to die. I have some old mags with art reprints of the original DP resolution where Jean is lobotomized.Phoenix: The Untold Story, you mean. I know that CC was plotting the whole Creed kills Logan loves on a consistent basis thing, but Mariko's death was so poignant that I'm glad it didn't go through.I would have prefered this ending personally, but altogether I'm glad Byrne left. Hmm...I wonder if Byrne hadn't been kicked off after #143, maybe he'd be a nicer guy today.Byrne wasn't kicked off. He quit because he disagreed with Chris over who the characters were. Also, Byrne wanted to kill off most of the team and replace them with the original five X-Men and revert everything that was done thus far at the time back to the original square one status quo in 1963. Byrne was never a nice guy. Never will be. I like his art, and I liked his runs on Alpha Flight, and Fantastic Four, but otherwise I dislike him as a person, and the rest of his comic work. I can't think of one person he has collaborated with that he hasn't insulted on his forum, or somewhere else. I don't even know where to start. Supposedly he was going to offer to restore her Phoenix powers if she would join him... Jean would wrestle with the dilemma for a while, but finally decide to reject the offer, after which she and Scott would retire to Alaska to raise a family.

That's what Claremont's said over the years, I believe.Yes, this is what was going to happen in Uncanny X-Men #150, actually. The story was about the triumph of the good side of the human spirit over the evil/corrupt side. Jean was able to resist the temptation to get her powers back, and simply because of that choice the X-Men won a great victory. I don't know if Magneto would have started reforming in that issue, with Byrne around and all that Jean's triumph was used instead for the official/final ending of Uncanny X-Men #137, where Jean would rather die then risk doing what she did all over again. As for Jean and Scott, however, that was going to be over in a matter of a few years, with Logan around and all that.

I've always been more interested in the Claremont/Lee, Claremont/Portacio, Claremont/Davis, Simonson/Blevins, and Nocenti/Adams plans that never were, but Chris and John still had some interesting stuff.

Brian Cronin

08-30-2006, 06:41 AM

When has John Byrne ever had anything bad to say about Roger Stern? Or Gail Simone?

Anyhow, you know what I would love, if one of you folks could find for me, is a citation for the bit about how Claremont had to change his Fury/Jim Jaspers storyline. It's something we all seem to "know" is true, but I would like to see a quote from Claremont where he SAYS it is true.

Same goes for a quote from Claremont saying he wanted to bring Kitty into the FF as Franklin's nanny.

-Brian

Daithi

08-30-2006, 07:28 AM

Anyhow, you know what I would love, if one of you folks could find for me, is a citation for the bit about how Claremont had to change his Fury/Jim Jaspers storyline. It's something we all seem to "know" is true, but I would like to see a quote from Claremont where he SAYS it is true.

This isn't what you want but there's some information about the Fury/Jaspers/DoFP story here for anyone who's interested. Scroll to the bottom.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm

DDM

08-30-2006, 08:55 AM

Hmm...I wonder if Byrne hadn't been kicked off after #143, maybe he'd be a nicer guy today.
But that stuff does seem interesting, especially the "Phoenix/Magneto" thing that was planned for #150. Were they going to fight or team-up? Who knows what really would've been?

John Byrne was not "kicked off" Uncanny X-Men. He quit.

fishtaco

08-30-2006, 03:56 PM

When has John Byrne ever had anything bad to say about Roger Stern? Or Gail Simone?Okay, fair point. I haven't heard anything about them from him, but you must admit that he has had something bad to say about almost everybody he has collaborated with at Marvel, right?

Anyhow, you know what I would love, if one of you folks could find for me, is a citation for the bit about how Claremont had to change his Fury/Jim Jaspers storyline. It's something we all seem to "know" is true, but I would like to see a quote from Claremont where he SAYS it is true.Do you mean a quote from Claremont himself, or just the reason for why it all was changed?

Same goes for a quote from Claremont saying he wanted to bring Kitty into the FF as Franklin's nanny.I think I have this one. Not my favorite idea of his, but there isn't anything wrong with it in my opinion, and at least Kitty would have been in a book, since it turned out that she wasn't in any book at all. Anyways, here it is...“My intent was to have Sue [Storm] “adopt” Kitty, seeing in her a classic troubled teen on the verge of going majorly bad. She would sort of function as Franklin’s big sister. (Since nobody was using her in the X-Men, I figured nobody would mind me sliding her over to the Fantastic Four. My mistake. Boyoboy can Marvel editors be territorial!) So that plot thread crashed and burned, and then when I tried it in X-Men (2nd Series) #100, it crashed and burned, and then when I tried to launch Kitty’s mini series, that got approved, got an artist assigned to the project (Lee Moder) and then it got shot down, crashed and burned!”

melodyrider

08-30-2006, 04:15 PM

Same goes for a quote from Claremont saying he wanted to bring Kitty into the FF as Franklin's nanny.

-Brian

That would have been a good idea... 20+ years ago when Kitty broke into their tower to steal a device that she thought would help Colossus. They could have claimed it as a way to make up for the damage she'd done.

Post Excalibur it would have been awful.

Brian Cronin

08-30-2006, 04:29 PM

Okay, fair point. I haven't heard anything about them from him, but you must admit that he has had something bad to say about almost everybody he has collaborated with at Marvel, right? To be honest, not really. The guy talks poorly about people he disagrees with, and that is a significant amount of people, no doubt.

But he also speaks well about people from his Marvel time, like Jerry Ordway, Mike Mignola, Dan Green, Roger Stern, Howard Mackie, Paul Ryan, John Romita Jr..

He doesn't speak so well about folks like Claremont, Peter David, Quesada, Jemas and Shooter (but even Claremont is rarely personal issues, just creative ones).

Feel free to disagree with the dude, though.

Do you mean a quote from Claremont himself, or just the reason for why it all was changed? Yeah, a quote. It's odd that I can't find one.

I think I have this one. Not my favorite idea of his, but there isn't anything wrong with it in my opinion, and at least Kitty would have been in a book, since it turned out that she wasn't in any book at all. Anyways, here it is...

Thanks a lot!

-Brian

fishtaco

08-30-2006, 04:31 PM

That would have been a good idea... 20+ years ago when Kitty broke into their tower to steal a device that she thought would help Colossus. They could have claimed it as a way to make up for the damage she'd done.

Post Excalibur it would have been awful.Kitty and Franklin also have a history, circa Fantastic Four v.s. The X-Men #'s 1-4. I would imagine that that would have been referenced, and the move might have even been based on it.

By the way, I was looking through a lot of unused pages of X-Men art, and I came across this. It's not a page of an X-Men comic, but it's a trading card from the early 90's drawn by Jim Lee that has the original roster for X-Men (2nd Series) on it. It's awesome.
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SwAAAHIXC5EL5RulT5deS4zRMJ6L*gwVagRWGqz3GaIqrf1zb ICMtLoy!FUT4YlBRpTUr4E3!43cUJIFepz9b7Cu8km!iCapYLW t6Oup2e7RPhDTO3puaQ/JLx-menpromo.bmp?dc=4675394874359598091
Sorry I couldn't find the colored one. Yeah, a quote. It's odd that I can't find one.I think it's because the information came from an interview done in about 1988 or 1989 or so, and stuff like that is hard to find on the Internet. I haven't had any luck finding interviews that old.

Gene M.

08-30-2006, 06:49 PM

By the way, I was looking through a lot of unused pages of X-Men art, and I came across this. It's not a page of an X-Men comic, but it's a trading card from the early 90's drawn by Jim Lee that has the original roster for X-Men (2nd Series) on it. It's awesome.
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SwAAAHIXC5EL5RulT5deS4zRMJ6L*gwVagRWGqz3GaIqrf1zb ICMtLoy!FUT4YlBRpTUr4E3!43cUJIFepz9b7Cu8km!iCapYLW t6Oup2e7RPhDTO3puaQ/JLx-menpromo.bmp?dc=4675394874359598091
Sorry I couldn't find the colored one.I think it's because the information came from an interview done in about 1988 or 1989 or so, and stuff like that is hard to find on the Internet. I haven't had any luck finding interviews that old.

That pic is awesome. I'm not sure I'd want to read a book about that line-up, though. Makes me wanna snooze.

Affinity

08-30-2006, 06:50 PM

Aw, I wish Rogue kept that costume! Guido kind of bores me, though.

alextron

08-30-2006, 07:00 PM

Cyclops is a robot! That would of been the most brilliant X-men reveal of all time or the worst idea of all time.

Cypher

09-05-2006, 07:37 AM

I've always been more interested in the Claremont/Lee, Claremont/Portacio, Claremont/Davis, Simonson/Blevins, and Nocenti/Adams plans that never were.

Me too, especially stuff about the New Mutants title that had to be scrapped for the introduction of Cable, but I've never seen any of this anywhere. Do you know where I can find any of this?

Cypher

09-05-2006, 07:39 AM

Oh, also I seem to remember reading somewhere about Claremont's plans to turn Wolverine into a pretty significant villain. Does anyone else remember this?

Brian Cronin

09-05-2006, 07:43 AM

Yeah. It was pretty similar to Millar's take. In fact, I'd love to see verification (i.e. a quote) on THAT topic, too! :)

Anyone?

-Brian

The Sword Is Drawn

09-05-2006, 07:45 AM

Anyhow, you know what I would love, if one of you folks could find for me, is a citation for the bit about how Claremont had to change his Fury/Jim Jaspers storyline. It's something we all seem to "know" is true, but I would like to see a quote from Claremont where he SAYS it is true.

Likewise. It made so little sense that he just turned up in uncanny during the Magneto trial, and then was never mentioned again.

jarrod

09-05-2006, 08:26 AM

By the way, I was looking through a lot of unused pages of X-Men art, and I came across this. It's not a page of an X-Men comic, but it's a trading card from the early 90's drawn by Jim Lee that has the original roster for X-Men (2nd Series) on it. It's awesome.
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SwAAAHIXC5EL5RulT5deS4zRMJ6L*gwVagRWGqz3GaIqrf1zb ICMtLoy!FUT4YlBRpTUr4E3!43cUJIFepz9b7Cu8km!iCapYLW t6Oup2e7RPhDTO3puaQ/JLx-menpromo.bmp?dc=4675394874359598091
Do you also have the image of the proposed Uncanny team drawn by Whilce Portacio? It was suppossed to have Cyclops, Jean, Angel, Iceman, Colossus, Banshee and Gambit iirc.

Truthfully, I think I'd have liked these divisions more that what we got with the Blue/Gold setups.

Citizen V

09-05-2006, 09:28 AM

Ive heard about some of the stories that Claremont was not allowed to use,most of it was to take place in the early 1990`s,after he was taken off Uncanny X-Men in issue 282,when Bishop first appeared.What was ment to happen was much different,and was even better than what actually happened in the 1990`s like Age Of Apocalypse,etc.

The Sword Is Drawn

09-05-2006, 09:36 AM

Brian Cronin

09-05-2006, 09:39 AM

DDM

09-05-2006, 09:48 AM

One of the big ones was that Wolverine was going to become a villain for an extended period of time, working for the Hand.

The goal was to show how deadly Wolverine could be if he was a villain.

Professor X was going to lose his telepathy.

That's all I remember. :)

-Brian

Xavier was going to die--to sacrifice himself--when he defeats the Shadow King for the final time. Xavier's school would have been left to Magneto, Storm, & Cyclops. Gateway would be the X-Men's spiritual leader while Magneto would be the school's headmaster--leading more in line with his own philosophy--while Storm & Cyclops are deputy leaders.

The world would be more unstable since the Shadow King made it become on the brink of World War III.

A new Hellfire Club would rise from the old with Matsuo, Fenris, & Fabien Cortez would be the dominating members.

The Sword Is Drawn

09-05-2006, 09:49 AM

The Sword Is Drawn

09-05-2006, 09:51 AM

Xavier was going to die--to sacrifice himself--when he defeats the Shadow King for the final time. Xavier's school would have been left to Magneto, Storm, & Cyclops. Gateway would be the X-Men's spiritual leader while Magneto would be the school's headmaster--leading more in line with his own philosophy--while Storm & Cyclops are deputy leaders.

The world would be more unstable since the Shadow King made it become on the brink of World War III.

A new Hellfire Club would rise from the old with Matsuo, Fenris, & Fabien Cortez would be the dominating members.

You see, all of that sounds such a brilliant idea. That would have been a book going forward, as opposed to getting stuck in the mud as I feel both core X-Books did in the 90s.

Frank

09-05-2006, 10:12 AM

Witness the Caliban that could have been:

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/CoryVandernet/2006-08-29_233922_Caliban.jpg

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/CoryVandernet/2006-08-29_233550_Caliban2.jpg

When Byrne wants to be creative, the guy can. Seeing all these plans, I wish he would have stayed with the X-Men a year or two more.

Slung

09-05-2006, 10:30 AM

Feel free to disagree with the dude [Byrne], though.

But do so at your own peril. Beware the flaming posts of power and insults that will ensue...And on that message board...he is the king...BUM BUM BUM (scary theme music).

As for unseen plots - man everytime I hear about any creator's plots that didn't happen due to an untimely exit, I always get sad. Especially Claremont's exit in 1990 and Kelly and Seagle's exit in 1998.

jsg2295

09-05-2006, 10:36 AM

I personally love Jbyrne's work, but I dont go on his website because I hear he has gotten a bit cantankerous. But it is his website, what he wants and doesnt want is entirely up to him.

Cypher

09-05-2006, 10:51 AM

Did Claremont talk about this stuff in any published interviews? If so, I'd love to check them out.

Not a big fan of Simonson's run on New Mutants (didn't compare to Claremont's IMHO), but it was better than the Cable-fest the book became under Liefeld. Would love to read about her plans as well.

fishtaco

09-05-2006, 06:06 PM

Do you also have the image of the proposed Uncanny team drawn by Whilce Portacio? It was suppossed to have Cyclops, Jean, Angel, Iceman, Colossus, Banshee and Gambit iirc.Can't find it. I'm also not even sure it actually exists. And yes, the team was supposed to consist of Charles (til his death), Scott, Bobby, Warren, Jean, Sean, Piotr, and Gambit. The goal was to show how deadly Wolverine could be if he was a villain.I'm not sure. The point of the storyline, from what I see, is to conclude the Jean/Scott/Logan triangle, to significantly develop Jubilee, to bring Matsuo Tsuryaba to the forefront as a major adversary, to resolve the plotline w/ Lady Deathstrike's oath to kill Wolverine (she would have died too), and to semi-resolve the plotline regarding Wolverine's struggle to "cage the beast within". This would have been cl0osed in later issues where Sabretooth tries to kill Jean (only because she would have been in a relationship with Wolverine. See Viper, Seraph, Silver Fox, original plans for Mariko Yashida). I don't know how this was going to end, but logic suggests that Sabretooth would have been killed. I don't know about Jean. Professor X was going to lose his telepathy.I heard DDM mention this once, but I haven't seen any clarification from anywhere online. I don't see how it could happen either, because Xavier would need his powers for events further down the road that I know for a fact were planned out (ie his death).Xavier was going to die--to sacrifice himself--when he defeats the Shadow King for the final time. Would Xavier have died on Muir? This is the impression I'm getting, because the Shadow King would have taken Xavier down with him, via his host, Legion (Xavier's son). Legion was on Muir Isle that whole time, too. I don't think the X-Men were going to originally go straight from Shi'ar Space/Epsilon Seikosha IX to Muir like we saw in the 'Island Saga. I think the X-Men would have invaded the island later (and have a hell of a time getting past the defenses that Forge himself set up!).The world would be more unstable since the Shadow King made it become on the brink of World War III. [QUOTE]Xavier's school would have been left to Magneto, Storm, & Cyclops. Gateway would be the X-Men's spiritual leader while Magneto would be the school's headmaster--leading more in line with his own philosophy--while Storm & Cyclops are deputy leaders.That isn't what Claremont said. X-Men (2nd Series) #1 was going to have Magneto briefly show up and announce his withdrawal from the X-Men. He would have left for Asteroid M. In Uncanny X-Men #300, he would have come back to Storm's team (with Jubilee, Guido Carosella, Forge, Psylocke, Rogue.......), and maybe this team would have been able to add Magneto to their ranks while balancing his ideas with Xavier's (like a democracy). The Xavier Institute was never, ever meant to be rebuilt. Magneto could not have been headmaster since the school didn't have any students, as they were revamped by Cable. I also get the impression that Cyclops's team and Storm's team were going to sever ties because of a difference in methods and ethics (look at how Storm and Cyclops disagreed over things during Inferno. Uncanny X-Men #273 also points clearly in this direction). What Claremont did in XM 1-3 with one of the teams going rogue isn't far off. His "fugitive X-Men" idea for X-Men Revolution and Stryfe is also a somewhat similar concept. Storm's team was going to retake the Outback from the Reavers in X-Men (2nd Series) #2, although they would have lost Wolverine in the process. Gateway does not leave the Outback (under Claremont, at least). He is bound to the land, regardless of whether he is the Reaver's servant or not. Therefore, I think Storm and Magneto's team would have gotten Gateway, and not Xavier and Cyclops's team. I don't even know where Cyclops and Professor X's team's base of operations was going to be. A new Hellfire Club would rise from the old with Matsuo, Fenris, & Fabien Cortez would be the dominating members.Since these guys were going to be so much more ruthless, much more spread out (across, say, the entire X-universe), much more dangerous and threatening, they weren't even going to be called "The Hellfire Club", or "The Inner Circle", etc. The purpose of this group was to establish a Hellfire Club-like villain team that was much, MUCH more up-to-date with the status quo and extreme times. Gathering at a club in New York City and conspiring was out of date during these times, and the villain team concept was too damn good to throw away. These guys were going to be at the forefront in knocking things down while the X-Men were trying to pick things up, after the disasterous death of their mentor, among other severe losses and lesser casualties among the X-Men, and their friends and allies. Matsuo Tsuryaba, Fabian Cortez, Fenris, Shinobi Shaw, and possibly Selene and Trevor Fitzroy were going to be called the "Wild Boys" (I say possibly Selene because Simonson had plans for her to committ some plot, not sure what, in Nova Roma, where Magma and Empath were at the time ca. New Mutants 75). Whilce Portacio and Jim Lee later made them "The Upstarts" (which in my opinion is a better name), and used Uncanny 268 as a jump-on point to UXM 281-283, XM 4-7. This group of villains would have been extremely deadly and threatening as individuals (some of the Hellfire members were also threatening as individuals such as Shaw, Emma and Selene, but the others not all too much), but working together, they would have put the Earth 616 through bleeding hell. We've already seen what most of these villains have done, so there wouldn't have been a need to kill off several characters to establish that they're threatening. You see, all of that sounds such a brilliant idea. That would have been a book going forward, as opposed to getting stuck in the mud as I feel both core X-Books did in the 90s.I don't think the current decade has moved very much forward either. Morrison really was the first in 10 years to move things forward and bring about major changes, but most of everything he has done has been undone.

Frank: That's very interesting. I like Steve Leihola's design better, but that first image still looks nice. I think he looks kind of dumb in the costume, though. I wonder if this is where Chris came up with one of Selene's powers from.
But do so at your own peril. Beware the flaming posts of power and insults that will ensue...And on that message board...he is the king...BUM BUM BUM (scary theme music).He's banned several posters just for disagreeing with his opinions, and insulted tons more. As for unseen plots - man everytime I hear about any creator's plots that didn't happen due to an untimely exit, I always get sad.When I first started delving through abandoned X-stories as a sub-hobby (I'm such a dork! :D ), I would always get pissed at Harras and Lee, but I'm past it and I don't really get depressed about how none of this happened anymore. I think I've solved the problem by just not paying much attention whatsoever to current canon, since this is where most of the stories come from that always make me think, "If Claremont didn't leave because of Harras, probably none of this #$%* would have happened!!!". Did Claremont talk about this stuff in any published interviews? If so, I'd love to check them out. My information comes from interviews with Chris Claremont and other writers on their respective work, posts at Comixfan by Chris Claremont and other writers on their respective work, other long-time fans who pay attention to this stuff (it's easy to learn about lost plotlines at the time they are being written or lost. It didn't take me much research to know that Carey wanted to use Psylocke for his roster, or that Tony Bedard pitched a Brotherhood mini series, or that Magneto was going to be revealed as Carter's father (AHHH!!!)). I also get some information from other creators who have collaborated with Chris, or who may have been somehow involved in the loss of the story. Also, I can get a lot of information by using the "domino effect". The patterns of Chris's plotlines can point in certain directions, but I usually need additional confirmation from another source. Another source is Claremont's books since his return to Marvel in 1998. While he obviously doesn't have much control like he used to, and since he has to deal with a heap of continuity that sets him off course, and maybe for "just because" reasons, his recent stories aren't all that great, but he still tries to resolve the plotlines. I read Claremont's recent books as an expression of "This was what I was going to do, but not as pristine as what would have been". X-Men: The End, Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, X-Treme X-Men, Wolverine (2nd Series), Excalibur (2nd Series), and New Excalibur all offer lost plotlines. For example, the "domino effect" in his work where he established how Sabretooth always kills Logan's women, combined with what we specifically saw in X-Men: The End leads me to conclude that Sabretooth was going to try to kill Jean. Other information comes from Uncanny X-Men and X-Men under Lee and Portacio after Claremont left, since several of those storylines were Claremont's ideas, but warped and diluted into something different yet still resembles Chris's ideas. Of course, published work from Claremont's original run helps me recognize loose stories. The X-Men Visionaries: Jim Lee tpb is the best.

I'll post some stuff by Claremont and others...

Novaya Havoc

09-05-2006, 06:15 PM

When Byrne wants to be creative, the guy can. Seeing all these plans, I wish he would have stayed with the X-Men a year or two more.

That's Byrne? I thought it was Sienkiewicz. :o

fishtaco

09-05-2006, 06:32 PM

Here are some excerpts and quotes I pulled from here and there into a 60 or so page journal of all this stuffsChris Claremont: It’s funny, but Jim’s first issue ([Uncanny]X-Men #267), which he did with Whilce Portacio, was totally inconsistent -- but there was some mean stuff in there. I thought I’d almost died and gone to heaven when I saw the pencils for [Uncanny] X-Men #268, the issue with Captain America and the Black Widow. Jim did a great Captain America and his babes had legs to die for. His Jubilee was just knock-your-socks-off, his Wolverine was great and the villains were amazing. Working with Jim was a lot of fun, but the institutional strains were starting to kick in. The problem was that Jim was just as strong-willed as I was. Jim wanted to do stuff that reminded him of the things that made him get into comics in the first place. He wanted to bring back Magneto [as a villain] and do the Sentinels and all that sort of stuff. My problem was I’d already done those things-- at least twice.

I wanted to try and find some new stuff to do. New stuff for the new [decade], you know! We couldn’t find any sort of common ground that would allow us to compromise. Rob Liefeld had had just forced Louise Simonson off “[New Mutants]” and that left a lot of frustration and negative resonance. Bob Harras was editing X-Men in those days and he was a lot more simpatico to Jim than he was to me. Looking back at it from the vantage point of the here-and-now, I can see no one had either the perspective or the incentive to find a way out. There was just no comfort zone. There was just all of this butting of heads and we all got boxed into corners. Bob and Jim wanted to do what they wanted to do and the feeling was I could not or would not go along, and they were going to do it anyway. I thought, I’ve worked too hard. The time has come maybe to see if I can survive without the X-Men. So I quit X-Men and left Marvel.

Tom DeFalco: I was stunned when you called me and announced that you were leaving.

Chris Claremont: Yeah, I know. I’d already gone to Bob time and again and he wasn’t listening. I’d gone to Mike Hobson, Marvel’s publisher, and Terry Stewart, Marvel’s president, and they weren’t listening. I really thought Mike and I could find a way to work things out. It’s not like I hadn’t been a Marvel guy, like, forever.

Tom DeFalco: I knew there was trouble, but you and Bob both kept telling me that you were working things out.

Chris Claremont: We thought we were, but we were just kidding ourselves. Nothing was changing. At some point, Bob decided to follow Jim’s vision on X-Men and that’s when I knew it was time to go.“I planned to keep him at the school, as Headmaster of the New Mutants, at least through [Uncanny X-Men] #300 - when I thought to confront him with consequences of his former life as a super-villain and force him to make a choice on which side of the line he stood.”“…In X-Men (2nd Series) #2, I was going to kill off Wolverine, he would have a fight with Lady Deathstrike and she would rip out his heart. She‘d die, he‘d die. Except, he wouldn‘t die, because he has a healing factor. And, he has his followers. So The Hand grab the body, they resurrect him, he comes back as the master assassin of The Hand, for two years, leading up to Uncanny X-Men #294, he would be the X-Men‘s greatest foe. The story would range from Uncanny X-Men to X-Men and back again.

Jean would go in and try to rescue him and end up becoming his evil babe, though not really, she would be faking it this time. She is trying to tap into the Wolverine which is buried beneath all of The Hand‘s spells. Scott and company are figuring “Wolverine‘s gone bad, we gotta put him down. Xavier is immoveably adamant about the need to save him. The need to salvage him, to bring him back to the light.

Along the way, an interesting thing was going to happen. When Wolverine‘s healing factor went into ultra high gear when he was “killed“, it was essentially rebuilding his heart. What would have happened if he had been left alone, his arms and legs probably (this is real disgusting), his arms and legs would have rotted, as his heart healed. His conscious mind would have been in total suspended animation, everything about him would have been geared towards keeping his sentiency intact and repairing his heart, everything else would have been left to go.

So assuming no scavengers came in and started to eat him, you would find that this partially decomposed body, with a fully healed torso, at which point, the decomposed bits would begin to heal. It would take a long time and be disgusting beyond words, but ultimately he would have survived. The idea was Wolverine really is almost as impossible to kill as Death‘s Head and much more charming and better looking.

Anyway, one of the side effects of this, the healing factor is purging all non-organic matter, which means the adamantium. So what was going to happen was it was going to start to leech out of his skin. There would be a time where Wolverine would look like the Silver Surfer with hair. He‘d be this blinding, shining creature with killer claws. Ultimately, the adamantium would just be part of his hair, he‘s look like a silver porcupine.

At some point in the storyline, Colossus and he would have a major fight, and it would have this great cover, it would be a black background with a spotlight of light and in the center of the spotlight are two sets of claws with the housings, just as if they had been ripped out of his arms and one of the claws would be broken. What was going to happen in that issue was that Colossus was just going to pull the claws off from their roots.

So, of course, The Hand would then give him artificial claws, they would work or not work as the case may be, but again, as part and parcel of the healing process, gradually he would realize that he was growing something new. That there is a natural element in his body that gives him claws. And over a span of six issues you would see them grow. They would be growing faster than normal because of the accelerated healing.

So, when all is said and done, it would come down to a major league fight between the X-Men and Wolverine. A major component of the fight would be Wolverine‘s battle with himself with the goodness of his soul, the warrior of his soul fighting this demon he has become, and he would win. The adamantium would flake off and eventually he would stand himself reborn as a totally natural being. His bones and claws would be virtually unbreakable, they could be broken, they could be broken, but they would also heal. But because of the incredible stress he has been under for the past two years, his healing factor is like “I‘m tired, don‘t do this again…not for a while, OK?

In the course of my storylines you could cut Wolverine and the cut would heal instantly, shoot him, he doesn‘t notice. He‘s healing so fast that normal wounds, normal injuries just have no effect on him. So he got used to the fact that he could butt walls with his head. When all this is said and done, Wolverine is not only more vulnerable. He‘s not going to butt his head through the walls, because “It hurts and why do I wanna hurt myself? Why don‘t I just use the key? Or get Colossus to do it?” it’s like Wolverine has come face to face with his own mortality and his own limitations and is like “I‘m too old for this shit. We‘ll find a better way.”

But at the same time, it would create a level of communication between him and Jean that Scott could only dream about, or have nightmares about, depending on your point of view. And at the end of all of this, it would lead to a final confrontation with the Shadow King, but that was my storyline, my core storyline for the first two years of X-Men. Now, as I understand it, they haven‘t done any of that.”“Obviously it looks like a lot of the stuff they’re doing i[s] the stuff I was planning to do, but actually, my plotline was rejected by Bob Harras. His comment being that it is all very well, but what do we do with Wolverine in Wolverine at the same time? How could I co-op Larry Hama’s plots for the next two years? I said, “Hey, he can adapt. I write the X-Men, he writes Wolverine, which is the senior book?” Bob would come and shake his head and act as if he couldn’t deal with this person anymore. So, my answer was, you do two years of Wolverine as a villain, and everybody in his book is trying to cope with that. You have situations where you can bring in the Avengers, they could fight Wolverine and they could win. Of course, the hero would then lose in his own book… or, the hero can win in his own book, but that means the bad guys win. Lots of possibilities and I would have thought it would be a lot of fun.” “Mystique abandoned him because she was totally freaked by this indigo-furred creature with “deformed” appendages and a forked tail. At that point, Mystique had no idea he was a mutant, or a metamorph; [s]he simply reacted as many normal folks would in similar circumstances. And in the process had something of a nervous breakdown, mental collapse. Which, of course, was a whole other story that will never see print.”

fishtaco

09-05-2006, 06:41 PM

and some more...
“Gambit was created to be, among other things, an adversary for the X-Men, working to subvert and destroy them from within. The connection with Sinister was part of his genesis from the get-go. However, that connection related solely to my conception of Sinister and the plans I had for him, post X-Men (2nd Series) #3 (1991).”“Father and son. That’s why Sabretooth (my incarnation, that is, not this “Creed” poseur) always considered Logan “sloppy seconds” to his “original” / “real deal.” The other critical element in my presentation of their relationship was that, in their whole life, Logan has never defeated Sabretooth in a knockdown, drag-out, kill-or-be-killed berserker fight. By the same token, on every one of his birthdays, Sabretooth has always managed to find him, no matter where Logan was or what he was doing, and come within an inch of killing him. For no other reason that to remind him that he could.” “[T]hey have a history together that goes back to Belasco and Illyana’s stint in Limbo. My original intent was to make Kitty the repository of the Soul-Sword, which should have come to her after Illyana’s death. Karmically, they were sisters.”“Once upon a time, a long, long time ago, in a Marvel far, far away, I did indeed have the notion that Viper was Jessica Drew’s mom. A character arc that lasted precisely as long as my tenure on the title. The editor, Mark Gruenwald, had significantly different notions. End of that story.” “I only had very vague notions of using the new characters to take the group in a variety of directions—in Time and space-- But no real specifics.”“That’s a very interesting theory, Ellen. To find out what happens to Storm and whether she regains her powers, watch for future issues [of Uncanny X-Men], and for the future Storm and Forge limited series by Chris Claremont and Barry Windsor-Smith…”“The team was going to encounter a performance artist whose canvas was the cosmos and whose goal was to create the perfect alignment of worlds and structures and then freeze it in place for eternity. The ultimate expression of Order over the messy Chaos of life. Phoenix would have gone totally postal.”“There were things you couldn’t do because of the Comics Code Authority in those days. For instance, the Comics Code Authority wouldn’t let you put a vampire in a comic book story. So I wondered if it was possible to come up with a character that was just like a vampire, but would still pass the Comics Code Authority. If you look at Sauron, he’s basically a vampire, but an energy vampire. What is blood? Blood is energy. It’s what makes your body move. He takes your energy our of your body and you look all wrinkled. I couldn’t have him turn into a bat because that was too obvious. What else flies and has leathery wings? A pterodactyl. Okay, so a pterodactyl bites somebody. He gets sick and seems to die. But he comes back to life by drawing energy from someone else. Sauron was basically a vampire and the Comics Code never spotted it.” “Something really cool and not a little bit scary -- and who's to say it was going to happen to Illyana, given that I'd established a common linkage between here and Kitty, in that her absence (read, death, or reasonable facsimile thereof), her magickal abilities appeared to transfer themselves to her. Unfortunately, from here on the same answer as above applies.”

Omega Alpha

09-05-2006, 10:26 PM

I don't think that Wolverine as "the X-men's main villain" because he's just too weak to be it. Most X-men can take him down, he wouldn't have a chance against the whole team all by himself. If it was, let's say, Storm or Iceman as a villain, or even Cyclops, as he is the X-men's best tactician (and already beat the X-men alone once), they could have been great foes, but not Logan. And i also hated the Scott-Jean-Logan triangle, always seemed to me just Reed-Sue-Namor reload, and that he invented him for revenge because Marvel separated Scott and Madelyne (this triangle was created by a retcon in Classic X-men #1).

But i liked his idea for the Shadow King, and the split of the X-men.

The Sword Is Drawn

09-06-2006, 02:21 AM

The more I read about this 'Dark Wolverine Saga' as it is sometimes referred the more I think that it would have been the best story for both X-Men and Wolverine.

Wolverine really hasn't changed a fat lot since the 80s. Even when Magneto leeched the adamantium from his body and he began his feral regression it didn't last long, and provided surprisingly little in the way of personal development for it's advent. Something I was always very disappointed with. Wolverine as a solo title became very samey for me, and I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that the vast majority of comic fans have really gotten pretty bored with the whole reformed killer with claws thing as being his only reason to be.

Wolverine revived by the Hand is a great concept, and the thought that his own healing factor would fight against the demon sorcery that revived him is pretty fascinating. The thought that he would become this bizarre metal beastie might be unusual, but the outcome would in many way be similar to what Marvel have done to him more recently. He'd still be nie on unkillable - in fact moreso! But the difference is that he would actually have grown as an individual because of it. He'd also be better suited as a possible mentor in the future.

Joey

09-06-2006, 04:34 AM

By the way, I was looking through a lot of unused pages of X-Men art, and I came across this. It's not a page of an X-Men comic, but it's a trading card from the early 90's drawn by Jim Lee that has the original roster for X-Men (2nd Series) on it. It's awesome.
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SwAAAHIXC5EL5RulT5deS4zRMJ6L*gwVagRWGqz3GaIqrf1zb ICMtLoy!FUT4YlBRpTUr4E3!43cUJIFepz9b7Cu8km!iCapYLW t6Oup2e7RPhDTO3puaQ/JLx-menpromo.bmp?dc=4675394874359598091

I have looked for that picture FOREVER.. I remember seeing it Diamond once (I believe it was)

I always liked that costume for Storm:D

fishtaco

09-06-2006, 06:32 AM

And i also hated the Scott-Jean-Logan triangle, always seemed to me just Reed-Sue-Namor reload, and that he invented him for revenge because Marvel separated Scott and Madelyne (this triangle was created by a retcon in Classic X-men #1).Revenge? :confused: Anyway, he didn't retcon in the triangle. It was already there, such as in Uncanny X-Men #'s 101, 110. The more I read about this 'Dark Wolverine Saga' as it is sometimes referred the more I think that it would have been the best story for both X-Men and Wolverine.

Wolverine really hasn't changed a fat lot since the 80s. Even when Magneto leeched the adamantium from his body and he began his feral regression it didn't last long, and provided surprisingly little in the way of personal development for it's advent. Something I was always very disappointed with. Wolverine as a solo title became very samey for me, and I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that the vast majority of comic fans have really gotten pretty bored with the whole reformed killer with claws thing as being his only reason to be.

Wolverine revived by the Hand is a great concept, and the thought that his own healing factor would fight against the demon sorcery that revived him is pretty fascinating. The thought that he would become this bizarre metal beastie might be unusual, but the outcome would in many way be similar to what Marvel have done to him more recently. He'd still be nie on unkillable - in fact moreso! But the difference is that he would actually have grown as an individual because of it. He'd also be better suited as a possible mentor in the future.Good points. I have looked for that picture FOREVER.. I remember seeing it Diamond once (I believe it was)

I always liked that costume for StormI like it too. It looks very witch/sorceress-like, and since Storm was gaining mystical powers and because of her heritage (Magik #'s 1-4, Uncanny X-Men #'s 139, 187-188, 190-191, 193, 226, 221-223, 242, 265 among several more issues), the costume seems most appropriate.

More plot-lines...

- Original plans for Landau, Luckman, and Lake.
- Magneto's mysterious battle with the Shadow King that he described as "a terror I'd not felt since Auschwitz".
- Gambit and Mr. Sinister's true form (a child in CXM #42), and the connection to Nanny and Orphan Maker.
- The next Shiar story, where Lilandra would learn that Xavier is dead, with possible involvement of Warskrulls (I suspect a lot of X-Men: The End would have been in this).
- Living computer in the X-Men's Outback base.
- Psylocke questioning whether she is loyal to The Hand.
- A Phoenix mini ca. 1986-1987.
- Another Longshot series by Nocenti and Adams ca. 1989-1990.
- Kitty as Saturnyne's heir.
- A mutant slave market/network spreading all over Cross-Time.
- Genoshans would have used Warlock's "ashes" to create "Living Sentinels" that would have Warlock's shape-shifting powers.

The Sword Is Drawn

09-06-2006, 07:03 AM

It would take a long time and be disgusting beyond words, but ultimately he would have survived. The idea was Wolverine really is almost as impossible to kill as Death‘s Head and much more charming and better looking.

The irony in this statement is that Chris was clearly being interviewed in the early 90s when that statement made total sense. Marvel have totally killed Death's Head now, first by ignoring him for a decade, and then producing a new Death's Head who has nothing to do with the former versions. :(

Cypher

09-06-2006, 07:20 AM

Omega Alpha

09-06-2006, 10:15 AM

Revenge? :confused: Anyway, he didn't retcon in the triangle. It was already there, such as in Uncanny X-Men #'s 101, 110.

No, it wasn't there. I re-read Uncanny #94 to #138 recently, and even trying to see if there was something there, any hint that Jean felt anything at all for him, there was absolutely nothing. Wolverine was in love with her, but he never did any move towards her, and he didn't seem the type of person who would be harassing the woman of a teammate, specially after he was portrayed as a man with the soul of a samurai in his minisseries and later in X-men, it always seemed out of character for me. And, anyway, Jean at best saw him as a not very close friend.

And when i say revenge, it's because everbody knows that Claremont was pissed off when Marvel decided to bring Jean back and break-up Scott and Maddie, and was against the idea. And see how he depicted Cyke until more or less Uncanny #197 and then later; in #175, he beated the entire X-men team all by himself, but in #201 he was running away from his responsability with Maddy and couldn't even hit the powerless Storm once, and she managed to steal his visor and win, and he didn't even call Maddy before she had the child. Claremont did not seem to have so much sympathy for the character as he used to have (even if he still likes it), and i'm not the first person to think that, i'm sure.

DDM

09-06-2006, 01:02 PM

Revenge? :confused: Anyway, he didn't retcon in the triangle. It was already there, such as in Uncanny X-Men #'s 101, 110.

There was never a love traingle between Wolverine, Cyclops & Phoenix. Although Wolverine had an unrequited love for Phoenix, he never acted on his instincts because he is aware of Phoenix's love for Cyclops. In Uncanny X-Men #114-115, Wolverine talks to himself about his "plans" he had for himself & Jean if Jean were still alive (Wolverine believes Phoenix died with Beast in Magneto's volcano). While fighting Proteus, he's turned on by Phoenix when she attacks Proteus. Wolverine's love for Phoenix is also what prevents him from stabbing Dark Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #136.

However, Chris Claremont introduced Mariko Yoshida in Uncanny X-Men #118-119 who became Wolverine's primary love interest over Jean Grey.

Frank

09-06-2006, 10:29 PM

Taskmaster

09-07-2006, 11:00 AM

- Living computer in the X-Men's Outback base.

Hmmm, does this have to do with when Havok destroyed a monitor in the OUtback and it repaired itself because i've always wondered about this (around Inferno I think)

DDM

09-07-2006, 11:42 AM

Hmmm, does this have to do with when Havok destroyed a monitor in the OUtback and it repaired itself because i've always wondered about this (around Inferno I think)

Yes. The Reaver's computer put Havok in bed & left him a note about Lorna Dane calling while he was unconscious in Uncanny X-Men #249-250.

DDM

09-07-2006, 11:44 AM

Wow so Chris left because of freakin Jim Lee...? :eek: :eek:

The legend was always because of Bob Harras. So much for Lee`s "nice guy" myth.

The perfect solution would have been that Harras at least accept his killing Wolverine/Hydra assassin proposal so Chris could have left Uncanny X-Men in the hands of Jim Lee and then write Wolverine himself in his title.

Bob Harras gave Jim Lee more power over Chris Claremont. I would say it's a combination of editor, Bob Harras & penciler, Jim Lee. Bob Harras refused to listen to Claremont so he left.

Beast

09-07-2006, 11:55 AM

Bob Harras gave Jim Lee more power over Chris Claremont. I would say it's a combination of editor, Bob Harras & penciler, Jim Lee. Bob Harras refused to listen to Claremont so he left.
That's incorrect. Claremont has always liked to do story brainstorming with his artists, ever since he started on Uncanny. I don't think that Claremont has any dislike of Jim Lee, after all the two worked together after Chris left Marvel. It was mostly Bob Harras that drove him to quit. Yes, I'm sure giving Jim Lee more power over the book did have something to do with that, but that wasn't Jim Lee's doing, that was all Harras.

Keith_Martineau

09-07-2006, 12:12 PM

Something far more telling in my opinion, from those interviews Taco posted, was Claremonts ambivilance towards how his plans would effect other books, and other writers.

Just because HE thought the Dark Wolverine story would be fun and provide a couple years of interesting stories for Larry Hama---does not mean that Hama felt the same way.

It's this kind of story co-opt that Claremont himself has suffered from on a number of occasions in the past few years. The exact thing we bitch about being done to him, he was all too willing to do to someone else back when he was at the height of his tenure on Uncanny X-Men.

I will no longer subscribe to the theory of "if only Claremont had stayed, if only the editors gave him cart blanche." Because that is no more right or just than whats happening to him today.

Claremont was 100% absolutely right to leave Uncanny. After so long writing the book, he'd done everything that was "classic" more than once, and wanted to do something else. His artist, and his editor did not. Claremont has no obligation to stay and write, when he cannot tell the stories he wants to tell.

But by the same token, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the directions Harras and Lee went, if the editor and artist wanna do something the writer doesn't? They should no more have to bow to him, than he to them. The situation played exactly as it should. A compromise could not be met, and someone left. Had Claremont stayed, we still would not have gotten the storyline we're talking about now. He would have changed his plans to accomadate the wishes of the group.

Daithi

09-07-2006, 12:47 PM

fishtaco

09-07-2006, 03:13 PM

Fishtaco,

Thank you so much for posting those - I've never been privy to any of this, and I've been reading X-comics for almost 25 years. My mind is just reeling.

Can you share some links to some of these creator boards where this stuff is talked about? I just can't get enough.There's another forum (www.comixfan.com) that has a thread titled "Claremont's Abandoned Plots". Lot's of interesting stuff in there, as well as some...not-as-interesting stuff. It's also the forum that Chris himself posts at, although he has been absent for a few months, most likely due to his health.
You can also maybe tell by my screen name that I'm a huge fan of the New Mutants. Have you seen stuff on what was supposed to happen there? I never understood why Claremont left the book, or if the deaths of Magik and Cypher would have happened if he had stayed on, or if they were purely Simonson's doing. I don't know too much about this. What I do know, however, deals with Doug. The New Mutant that Tarot was secretly in love with was Doug. Also, something really awful was going to happen to Doug and 'lock, since Doug was revealed to be infected with the Transmode in New Mutants (1st Series) #53. There's also the fate of Karma's siblings from #46. Claremont was either going to resolve this in New Mutants, or he was going to resolve it in the Wolverine ongoing series with John Buscema (in my opinion, and this is a semi-response to Keith M., I think it was a mistake to launch an ongoing Wolverine title in the first place, because of the continuity problems, and Chris was never really that committed to the book, and it caused problems later. But Keith has a good point about Chris wanting to force Larry to write those stories. That isn't right either.) I don't know what was going to happen to Magik, but I suspect a loss of powers or temporary death or being sent to a different reality or something, because Chris was also dealing with that "karmic sisters" plotline where Kitty gets the 'Sword.[/QUOTE]And when i say revenge, it's because everbody knows that Claremont was pissed off when Marvel decided to bring Jean back and break-up Scott and Maddie, and was against the idea. And see how he depicted Cyke until more or less Uncanny #197 and then later; in #175, he beated the entire X-men team all by himself, but in #201 he was running away from his responsability with Maddy and couldn't even hit the powerless Storm once, and she managed to steal his visor and win, and he didn't even call Maddy before she had the child. Claremont did not seem to have so much sympathy for the character as he used to have (even if he still likes it), and i'm not the first person to think that, i'm sure.So, you're saying that the way Cyclops acted in a few issues was a subtle attack on Marvel? And Claremont wasn't even mad at Marvel. IF he was mad at anybody, it might have been John Byrne, because he was the one who did it and came up with the idea. There's no basis for saying that he was mad at Marvel, especially when Jim Shooter, the editor-in-chief, was more resistant to Jean coming back than even Claremont was from 1981-1985. Wow so Chris left because of freakin Jim Lee...? No. Had Jim Lee never been the permanent artist, then Claremont would not have left, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he left BECAUSE of Jim Lee. Claremont left because of the way Bob Harras chose to deal with please Jim Lee. The Muir Island Saga, or rather the twisted and diluted storyline that was based off of Claremont's orignial story and that brought much of everything back to square one (Claremont didn't want to go back and do things that were done 30 years ago at that time), was concocted by Bob Harras. Jim Lee wasn't involved in that one. Hmmm, does this have to do with when Havok destroyed a monitor in the OUtback and it repaired itself because i've always wondered about this (around Inferno I think)Precisely. That's incorrect. Claremont has always liked to do story brainstorming with his artists, ever since he started on Uncanny. I don't think that Claremont has any dislike of Jim Lee, after all the two worked together after Chris left Marvel. It was mostly Bob Harras that drove him to quit. Yes, I'm sure giving Jim Lee more power over the book did have something to do with that, but that wasn't Jim Lee's doing, that was all Harras.Chris is/was more than happy to co-plot with the artist. However, he didn't like how Jim drew the issue any way he wanted without telling Chris much of what was in it, and then shipping the pages off to him to dialogue hours before deadline. Claremont did not leave the X-Men because of Jim Lee's style of "co-plotting". He left because of the way Bob Harras chose to "solve" the problem. I will no longer subscribe to the theory of "if only Claremont had stayed, if only the editors gave him cart blanche." Because that is no more right or just than whats happening to him today.Then why do you always jump to the defense of the writers of today who do to Claremont what he would have done to Hama? He'd done everything that was "classic" more than onceI think you make some good points, but I can't possibly disagree more about this. I don't think ANY of the plotlines he had going down were done more than once, and since we don't even know for sure how exactly they were going to turn out, we can't say that they're unoriginal. I disagree with the people who say that Claremont's run started to go down after Days of Future Past. I strongly believe that it got better and better with every time the plot labyrinth developed. Claremont and Lee were the perfect team on those fill-in issues that Lee did, and had they an editor who knew how to edit a comic book and knew the jobs and tasks of the writers and artists within the context of a Marvel comic book, then I believe they would have been the perfect team as both of the book's regular creators. I don't see any evidence of Claremont repeating stories in the late 80's and early 90's from stories he did in the 70's and early 80's.

Keith_Martineau

09-07-2006, 03:41 PM

Then why do you always jump to the defense of the writers of today who do to Claremont what he would have done to Hama?

I don't think I do. I've come to the defense of writers whose stories I enjoyed, even if they did cause Chris problems. I have NOT come to the defense of editors who limp-wristedly allowed things like that to happen.

And honestly, I don't think that editors of today have spoken to current writers and said "Well, you can do this story, but it will harm the story Chris Claremont is trying to tell." I think the editors just say "do the story" and then later they realize it will change something Claremont already had approved, and then give Claremont the shaft.

Look man, I'm a Claremont fan. I am. I don't think anyone here could call me otherwise. But I am ALSO a fan of other writers, and I am a fan of Marvel's current climate and direction.

I think you make some good points, but I can't possibly disagree more about this. I don't think ANY of the plotlines he had going down were done more than once, and since we don't even know for sure how exactly they were going to turn out, we can't say that they're unoriginal. I disagree with the people who say that Claremont's run started to go down after Days of Future Past. I strongly believe that it got better and better with every time the plot labyrinth developed. Claremont and Lee were the perfect team on those fill-in issues that Lee did, and had they an editor who knew how to edit a comic book and knew the jobs and tasks of the writers and artists within the context of a Marvel comic book, then I believe they would have been the perfect team as both of the book's regular creators. I don't see any evidence of Claremont repeating stories in the late 80's and early 90's from stories he did in the 70's and early 80's.

I was just quoting Claremont from the interview you posted. He said that Jim Lee wanted to do classic stuff. Sentinels, original teams, stuff like that. Lee wanted to do the stuff he'd read as a kid. Claremont said he'd already done that stuff, 2 or 3 times in some cases. Thats what I was referring to.

It comes down to Claremont wanted to change the X-Men, because he felt they needed that. Lee wanted to draw classic stuff. Harras felt like they needed status quo, and Lee was responsible for renewed interest in X-Men, so he sided with Lee.
Claremont rightfully felt he didn't need that kind of stress, and he walked. I fully blame it on Harras, just like you do.

fishtaco

09-07-2006, 04:06 PM

I don't think I do. I've come to the defense of writers whose stories I enjoyed, even if they did cause Chris problems. I have NOT come to the defense of editors who limp-wristedly allowed things like that to happen.

And honestly, I don't think that editors of today have spoken to current writers and said "Well, you can do this story, but it will harm the story Chris Claremont is trying to tell." I think the editors just say "do the story" and then later they realize it will change something Claremont already had approved, and then give Claremont the shaft.

Look man, I'm a Claremont fan. I am. I don't think anyone here could call me otherwise. But I am ALSO a fan of other writers, and I am a fan of Marvel's current climate and direction.I've also realized that the editors do not realize right away that a writer's story interfere's with one by Chris. It's possible that once they realize it, they don't want to tell the writer they can't do that story because someone's already doing it. I'm not saying that IS how it happens, but it's possible. It might explain how editorial forced Storm out of Uncanny X-Men into Black Panther, even though Uncanny X-Men was selling better, while at the same time editorial restricted the Hellfire Club story with the possible reason being that Astonishing X-Men sells better than New Excalibur. I don't know for sure. I don't work there. My information comes from people who do work there, and from people who do work for Marvel (creators). I think Marvel's problem is being able to give all of their writers creative freedom. This is very, very hard to do when there are so many writers who want to tell X-Men stories, or write Wolverine in the context of their vision of him, or use a certain team, while also having to respect continuity. It's hard, I'll admit that. I read barely anything at Marvel right now, but am I correct in saying that Claremont is by far from the only writer who gets a wooden stake driven through his stories? I'm sure this happens to almost every writer. Am I correct?

I was just quoting Claremont from the interview you posted. He said that Jim Lee wanted to do classic stuff. Sentinels, original teams, stuff like that. Lee wanted to do the stuff he'd read as a kid. Claremont said he'd already done that stuff, 2 or 3 times in some cases. Thats what I was referring to.Ah, my mistake. Which leads to...

It comes down to Claremont wanted to change the X-Men, because he felt they needed that. Lee wanted to draw classic stuff. Harras felt like they needed status quo, and Lee was responsible for renewed interest in X-Men, so he sided with Lee.
Claremont rightfully felt he didn't need that kind of stress, and he walked. I fully blame it on Harras, just like you do.I think the X-Men could change and look classic at the same time. I don't have a problem with the original team rejoining. Also, we would have gotten to see Professor X for a couple more years. Uncanny X-Men was in a most radical period of change at the time Claremont left, and the status quo was in an interesting state of flux. Things changed with every issue of the Wilderness Era. Since Claremont scattered the X-Men all across the X-Universe (Shiar Space, Muir Island, Savage Land, Epsilon Seikosha IX, Cairo, Australian Outback, the ruins of the Xavier Institute, Madripoor, Genosha, Great Britain and so on and so forth), there were literally multiple status quos, and in some cases what affected one might not have affected another, etc. I'd like to know if Bob really appreciatd what Claremont was doing with the title but sided with Jim because he feared Jim would leave the book and thus bring down it's sales, or if he sided with Jim because he also had 60's nostalgia and read Stan, Jack and Roy's X-Men growing up?

Keith_Martineau

09-07-2006, 06:14 PM

You are correct, other writers get their stories messed with.
I still think that Claremont gets it the most. At least over the last few years. There's been all kinds of different reasons for it as well.

I'm just saying that the interview you posted kind of changed my view on it a little. For all the bitching and defense we fans come to on his behalf over these things, it was surprising to find him so willing to do the same thing back then.

But lets face it, it sure as hell looks like he was planning some serious major changes. And as easy as it is in hindsight to say that his plans sounded WAY cooler than what we got, some of it might have been too far.
The mansion never being rebuilt? Magneto taking over permanently? Xavier dead and gone? Yes, you can change the status quo and still keep things classic---but how much change is too much change? At what point does change become too much change? When does the soap opera cause the story to stray too far from the original message and point?

And for so many readers, the point of X-Men is different. It can mean so many things. Allegory for racism, for being an outsider, for being a teen, for good vs. evil, for redemption. Claremont wrote SO many stories about so many characters that there are actually multiple elements that people identify with. I dunno, I'm rambling.

My basic point is, I now begin to wonder if Claremont would have taken those ideas too far, and made such dramatic change to the X-Men, that would it even be possible to reboil it down to it's basic original elements? Had Xavier died, and the school never been rebuilt, and Logan and Jean gotten together, then say for instance Grant Morrisons run could have never been done (and subsequently undone.)
I think that it was good that Claremont left the title, as awesome as some of those ideas sounded. I will NOT say that the stuff we got instead was good, and I'd wish that had been better, but yeah.

fishtaco

09-07-2006, 08:08 PM

You are correct, other writers get their stories messed with.
I still think that Claremont gets it the most. At least over the last few years. There's been all kinds of different reasons for it as well.I see.

The mansion never being rebuilt? Magneto taking over permanently? Xavier dead and gone? Yes, you can change the status quo and still keep things classic---but how much change is too much change? At what point does change become too much change? When does the soap opera cause the story to stray too far from the original message and point?Well, hold up a minute. The core concept of the book was, and had Claremont stayed, still would have been (and still is) the struggle for mutants to find their place in a world that looks upon them with fear and hatred, and a group of people who, inspired by a man with a dream, try to establish peace and tolerance between the two intelligent species on the planet, and as part of the process teach young mutants how to safely use their powers and the ethics involved in them (ie to prevent something like Dark Phoenix from ever happening again, or the human response to a mutant with out-of-control powers that may or may not actually mean any harm). That IS the core concept, right? If it isn't, then I'm open to corrections. But if that's right, then there's no reason why the details can't change. Is there any rule that says that the X-Men must rebuild and operate from the mansion to carry out this dream? Just because it started that way doesn't mean it always has to be that way. Even Grant Morrison destroyed the mansion, although it was towards the end of his run and we didn't get to see much mileage from it. But the point is that the mansion became outdated. How can the X-Men operate across the entire planet (it isn't like there are only mutants in New York) from a mansion in New York? The answer is they can try, but they wouldn't be very proficient when things get more and more dangerous. Claremont took the concept of the mansion as far as it could have gone, and he moved some X-Men here and some there, and then a few years later they were scattered all over the world, like a diaspora. Grant Morrison did it too. Look at X-Corporation. They were all over the place. Mumbai, Paris, Los Angeles, still New York. In the issues of New Worlds, it was unpredictable. We didn't know the setting of the next issue. While at the mansion, we readers always knew where the X-Men's adventure were going to begin. Predictability. Sure. The concept of the mansion was perfectly fine in the first 27 or so years of it's use, but it gets stale. It was destroyed by Mr. Sinister. It's about being proactive. It's about really getting out there and putting effort into Xavier's dream. And if Xavier did die in #300, and if the X-Men all move back into his house from across the world, would that be what he wants, just because that's what things were like when he was there? Why go back to an earlier status quo? I'm angry over Claremont's progression from 1975-1991 being undone. The both of us aren't happy about all Morrison did being undone. It's the same thing. It's nostalgia and the belief that the Dream is nothing without the Xavier Insitute. That's wrong. As long as the X-Men are alive, the Dream is alive. They can be anywhere.

My knowledge on this is limited, but Magneto as the X-Men's leader forever sounds very unlikely. Yes, it was an unpredictable and fresh idea and I expect that it was going to last a long time, but forever (at least, as long as Claremont was going to be on the book)? I don't think so. I'm not saying that Magneto was going to die in #400 or #500 (but I wouldn't ruled that out, if Claremont even planned ahead that far anyway, which he probably didn't), but I don't think he would have been there *forever*.

And Professor gone and buried. Yeah, I would suspect that Claremont didn't ever intend on bringing him back ever. And why should he? Similar to how Magneto's death inspired his followers in Grant Morrison's run, the death of Xavier would have made the Dream so much more important, with the X-Men being more committed to it than ever. Xavier was to be a legendary figure who has long since past away himself, but for all it's worth to the core concept it doesn't matter because his teachings live on in his predeccesors, like Storm, and Cyclops, and Magneto, and Gateway (Gateway, to an extent at least). In Excalibur, too. Xavier was away in space, supposedly never to return to Earth again during this time, yet Phoenix didn't give up just because Charles left. Instead, she started a whole new team of (mostly) mutants to carry on the Dream, and for might to be in the service of right. I see Xavier's death as empowering the character, making him look like The Beginning, who has passed the torch on to his children. Some of his children are unsure of what to do and they are split on how to deal with things. No more mentor to set them all straight. Everyone's parents die, never to come back. They can't be around forever to hold their hands. Xavier's purpose was to point his students in a direction. It's his students purpose to walk in that direction. The X-Men all know the right direction, and they also know how to point their students in the right direction. Therefore, I ask why Xavier is still needed? Bringing him back to life, or just to the school is a retro direction. What we had in Lee and Portacio's runs were an old man with his already-educated and adult (some middle-aged) students back in the schoolhouse. That doesn't work. You can't teach 5th grade math to High School juniors. Xavier can't teach the X-Men to control their powers anymore because they already know how. He can't tell them what's right and what's wrong because they already know. The death of Xavier by no means suggests that Xavier didn't found the school. Yes, he founded it and led the X-Men for a long time. But "Who leads the X-Men?" is a detail that is not part of the core concept. If the X-Men are led by Mammomax, it won't change the core concept. It wouldn't be a good idea in itself, but it won't contradict the core concept. Is it a bad idea for Storm and Magneto to lead and not Professor X, because it was Charley's Dream? The concept of the Dream continuing after Xavier's death is powerful. It shows that people believe in what he stood for and that he was a great man. In Planet X, do you think Esme, Beak, and Toad would have kept going on and destroying New York had Magneto been killed towards the beginning? It shows that his Brotherhood was weak. What would have made the X-Men so stunning is how just because the guy who started the thing died, they won't quit. For Magneto in PLX, it was if he caves, it's over. But the X-Men would have had staying power, and that means everything. Even after his death, I suspect that Claremont would have tried to establish a sense of his spiritual presence because he has been such an influence on his students that they will never truly be apart. So let's say he dies, and the X-Men mourn their loss and continue on stronger and more motivated than ever, only to see Charles a few years later come back and say "That wasn't me. That was a clone of me created by Mr. Sinister". Don't you think that's a little anti-climatic?

Omega Alpha

09-07-2006, 08:29 PM

I see.

Well, hold up a minute. The core concept of the book was, and had Claremont stayed, still would have been (and still is) the struggle for mutants to find their place in a world that looks upon them with fear and hatred, and a group of people who, inspired by a man with a dream, try to establish peace and tolerance between the two intelligent species on the planet, and as part of the process teach young mutants how to safely use their powers and the ethics involved in them (ie to prevent something like Dark Phoenix from ever happening again, or the human response to a mutant with out-of-control powers that may or may not actually mean any harm). That IS the core concept, right? If it isn't, then I'm open to corrections. But if that's right, then there's no reason why the details can't change. Is there any rule that says that the X-Men must rebuild and operate from the mansion to carry out this dream? Just because it started that way doesn't mean it always has to be that way. Even Grant Morrison destroyed the mansion, although it was towards the end of his run and we didn't get to see much mileage from it. But the point is that the mansion became outdated. How can the X-Men operate across the entire planet (it isn't like there are only mutants in New York) from a mansion in New York? The answer is they can try, but they wouldn't be very proficient when things get more and more dangerous. Claremont took the concept of the mansion as far as it could have gone, and he moved some X-Men here and some there, and then a few years later they were scattered all over the world, like a diaspora. Grant Morrison did it too. Look at X-Corporation. They were all over the place. Mumbai, Paris, Los Angeles, still New York. In the issues of New Worlds, it was unpredictable. We didn't know the setting of the next issue. While at the mansion, we readers always knew where the X-Men's adventure were going to begin. Predictability. Sure. The concept of the mansion was perfectly fine in the first 27 or so years of it's use, but it gets stale. It was destroyed by Mr. Sinister. It's about being proactive. It's about really getting out there and putting effort into Xavier's dream. And if Xavier did die in #300, and if the X-Men all move back into his house from across the world, would that be what he wants, just because that's what things were like when he was there? Why go back to an earlier status quo? I'm angry over Claremont's progression from 1975-1991 being undone. The both of us aren't happy about all Morrison did being undone. It's the same thing. It's nostalgia and the belief that the Dream is nothing without the Xavier Insitute. That's wrong. As long as the X-Men are alive, the Dream is alive. They can be anywhere.

My knowledge on this is limited, but Magneto as the X-Men's leader forever sounds very unlikely. Yes, it was an unpredictable and fresh idea and I expect that it was going to last a long time, but forever (at least, as long as Claremont was going to be on the book)? I don't think so. I'm not saying that Magneto was going to die in #400 or #500 (but I wouldn't ruled that out, if Claremont even planned ahead that far anyway, which he probably didn't), but I don't think he would have been there *forever*.

And Professor gone and buried. Yeah, I would suspect that Claremont didn't ever intend on bringing him back ever. And why should he? Similar to how Magneto's death inspired his followers in Grant Morrison's run, the death of Xavier would have made the Dream so much more important, with the X-Men being more committed to it than ever. Xavier was to be a legendary figure who has long since past away himself, but for all it's worth to the core concept it doesn't matter because his teachings live on in his predeccesors, like Storm, and Cyclops, and Magneto, and Gateway (Gateway, to an extent at least). In Excalibur, too. Xavier was away in space, supposedly never to return to Earth again during this time, yet Phoenix didn't give up just because Charles left. Instead, she started a whole new team of (mostly) mutants to carry on the Dream, and for might to be in the service of right. I see Xavier's death as empowering the character, making him look like The Beginning, who has passed the torch on to his children. Some of his children are unsure of what to do and they are split on how to deal with things. No more mentor to set them all straight. Everyone's parents die, never to come back. They can't be around forever to hold their hands. Xavier's purpose was to point his students in a direction. It's his students purpose to walk in that direction. The X-Men all know the right direction, and they also know how to point their students in the right direction. Therefore, I ask why Xavier is still needed? Bringing him back to life, or just to the school is a retro direction. What we had in Lee and Portacio's runs were an old man with his already-educated and adult (some middle-aged) students back in the schoolhouse. That doesn't work. You can't teach 5th grade math to High School juniors. Xavier can't teach the X-Men to control their powers anymore because they already know how. He can't tell them what's right and what's wrong because they already know. The death of Xavier by no means suggests that Xavier didn't found the school. Yes, he founded it and led the X-Men for a long time. But "Who leads the X-Men?" is a detail that is not part of the core concept. If the X-Men are led by Mammomax, it won't change the core concept. It wouldn't be a good idea in itself, but it won't contradict the core concept. Is it a bad idea for Storm and Magneto to lead and not Professor X, because it was Charley's Dream? The concept of the Dream continuing after Xavier's death is powerful. It shows that people believe in what he stood for and that he was a great man. In Planet X, do you think Esme, Beak, and Toad would have kept going on and destroying New York had Magneto been killed towards the beginning? It shows that his Brotherhood was weak. What would have made the X-Men so stunning is how just because the guy who started the thing died, they won't quit. For Magneto in PLX, it was if he caves, it's over. But the X-Men would have had staying power, and that means everything. Even after his death, I suspect that Claremont would have tried to establish a sense of his spiritual presence because he has been such an influence on his students that they will never truly be apart. Why bring him back?

I agree with most of what you said. Even though i don't like some of the specific things Claremont changed or would change (like Logan as a villiain and in a relationship with Jean), as long as he keeps the essence of the X-men, it's fine. And i would actually prefer if Xavier died in Uncanny #300; some of the best periods of X-men were with him away, even the best phase of the first series in the 60's and 70's was when he was (supposedly) dead, and the X-men did not have "daddy" to run too and were spread across the USA (Claremont did not invent that concept at all), allowing them to grow up outside Xavier's shadow.

Citizen V

09-07-2006, 08:45 PM

Ive read about The Dark Wolverine,but i also have heard some mentions about Cable and how he was ment to become Ahab.This was all ment to start when Claremont was taken off Uncanny X-Men with issue 282.

david r

09-07-2006, 08:49 PM

I think by the early '90s, Chris Claremont was no longer simply writing a comic book. He was creating a massive epic, or even a novel. In comic form. The story leading up to "Uncanny X-Men #300" was so huge and gigantic, with ramifications aplenty, that Claremont should be given credit for at least trying to weave something never quite seen before in a Marvel book.

Bob Harras got cold feet, and did not allow this to occur.

I think the Larry Hama issue tells something important though. Who was the newbie X-Men writer and who was the Chief X-writer for 17 years? Whose interests really should take precedent over who? Claremont began his massive "Dark Wolverine" tale in 1989 with UXM #251. Long before Larry Hama was writer on solo "Wolverine". Why should CC change his epic (presumably already green-lighted by Harras, since the story had begun) to fit Larry Hama who was just starting on "Wolverine"?

Omega Alpha

09-07-2006, 10:04 PM

Well, who ever was the writer in Wolverine would not accept another writer killing Logan because HE WOULDN'T HAVE A JOB ANYMORE!

Grendel0606

09-08-2006, 12:39 AM

Yes. The Reaver's computer put Havok in bed & left him a note about Lorna Dane calling while he was unconscious in Uncanny X-Men #249-250.
Are you sure that it wasn't really Jubilee (who was secretly living in the X-Men's complex at the time)? The diction in te note seemed more like hers than that of a computer...

The Sword Is Drawn

09-08-2006, 02:34 AM

Well, who ever was the writer in Wolverine would not accept another writer killing Logan because HE WOULDN'T HAVE A JOB ANYMORE!

Only he would though, wouldn't he. Issue could continue to deal with the response to Wolverine's deatyh, and his being taken by The Hand. The solo series could show us exactly what was happening to him, and further expolre the fight going on inside him between the 'demon programming' of The Hand and his own healing factor trying to restore him.

I think that would have been fascinating, and I think that Wolverine would have come out of the story as a much more interesting character in both titles because of it.

There's only so muchj you can cover in Uncanny. There Wolverine would be appearing purely as a villain. We'd only be seeing him at face value, with his former team mates believing that there must still be good inside him. In the solo series we'd actually see more Wolverine internal thoughts and arguements, showing the fuller picture of what was going on inside his head. I think it would be fascinating to see this. Wolverine would be an X-book dealing with a man who you could never be totally sure whether he was good or bad, or somewhere in between.

DDM

09-08-2006, 07:59 AM

Well, who ever was the writer in Wolverine would not accept another writer killing Logan because HE WOULDN'T HAVE A JOB ANYMORE!

Tell that to people at DC Comics who killed Superman off in the mid-90's.

Frank

09-08-2006, 08:56 AM

That's incorrect. Claremont has always liked to do story brainstorming with his artists, ever since he started on Uncanny. I don't think that Claremont has any dislike of Jim Lee, after all the two worked together after Chris left Marvel. It was mostly Bob Harras that drove him to quit. Yes, I'm sure giving Jim Lee more power over the book did have something to do with that, but that wasn't Jim Lee's doing, that was all Harras.

I remember there was an interview in Comics Scene before X-Men 1 came out and Jim Lee said:"It wouldn`t be too exagerating to say I had a big hand in the success of the return in popularity of the X-Men".

So whatever we think of these individuals, there`s no doubt that there was an inkling that a power struggle was imminent. It couldn`t have been all Harras. Something I know for sure was that when Todd McFarlane was on Amazing Spider-Man he wanted to write. There was some frictions there and that`s how he got his own Spider-book. And then since Liefeld was his boy, Todd was feeding Rob things to say to editors so he could get more "freedom" and that lead to Rob writing New Mutants on his own(and the creation of X-Force). And shortly after, the same thing happened on X-Men with Jim Lee who was among that group that felt like superstars. Who also friends with them. It couldn`t have been coincidences.

Frank

09-08-2006, 09:12 AM

You are correct, other writers get their stories messed with.
I still think that Claremont gets it the most. At least over the last few years. There's been all kinds of different reasons for it as well.

I'm just saying that the interview you posted kind of changed my view on it a little. For all the bitching and defense we fans come to on his behalf over these things, it was surprising to find him so willing to do the same thing back then.

But lets face it, it sure as hell looks like he was planning some serious major changes. And as easy as it is in hindsight to say that his plans sounded WAY cooler than what we got, some of it might have been too far.
The mansion never being rebuilt? Magneto taking over permanently? Xavier dead and gone? Yes, you can change the status quo and still keep things classic---but how much change is too much change? At what point does change become too much change? When does the soap opera cause the story to stray too far from the original message and point?

And for so many readers, the point of X-Men is different. It can mean so many things. Allegory for racism, for being an outsider, for being a teen, for good vs. evil, for redemption. Claremont wrote SO many stories about so many characters that there are actually multiple elements that people identify with. I dunno, I'm rambling.

My basic point is, I now begin to wonder if Claremont would have taken those ideas too far, and made such dramatic change to the X-Men, that would it even be possible to reboil it down to it's basic original elements? Had Xavier died, and the school never been rebuilt, and Logan and Jean gotten together, then say for instance Grant Morrisons run could have never been done (and subsequently undone.)
I think that it was good that Claremont left the title, as awesome as some of those ideas sounded. I will NOT say that the stuff we got instead was good, and I'd wish that had been better, but yeah.

Well we do not know what would have happened. But one thing is for sure, X-Men 1-3 by Claremont and Lee was one the best x storyline that`s ever been done. And when Chris left with Jim writing alone it was shallow and not that interesting. And the ten years following have been mediocre and destroyed everything that was cool about the X-Men.

For that reason Chris should have stayed. Who cares if they do the classic concepts like the Sentinels and so forth. It can be different even if use the same concepts(as the Shiar story that Jim Lee proved it). Part of my understanding when the promos for X-Men 1-3 occured it was going to be start from scratch with the old concepts and villains being destroyed. And that`s what Whilce Portacio in fact did in his book. With the Upstart becoming the main villains. So it wasn`t going to be only the classic things, Jim Lee or no Jim Lee.

Like I said earlier, a good compromise would have been Chris leaving the book but Harras agreeing the "killing Wolverine and bringing back as Hydra assassin" plan, with Chris writing Wolverine in his book and Larry Hama possibly going to write X-Men(with Jim Lee being the main architect of the stories).

Omega Alpha

09-08-2006, 09:16 AM

Only he would though, wouldn't he. Issue could continue to deal with the response to Wolverine's deatyh, and his being taken by The Hand. The solo series could show us exactly what was happening to him, and further expolre the fight going on inside him between the 'demon programming' of The Hand and his own healing factor trying to restore him.

I think that would have been fascinating, and I think that Wolverine would have come out of the story as a much more interesting character in both titles because of it.

There's only so muchj you can cover in Uncanny. There Wolverine would be appearing purely as a villain. We'd only be seeing him at face value, with his former team mates believing that there must still be good inside him. In the solo series we'd actually see more Wolverine internal thoughts and arguements, showing the fuller picture of what was going on inside his head. I think it would be fascinating to see this. Wolverine would be an X-book dealing with a man who you could never be totally sure whether he was good or bad, or somewhere in between.

First of all, i'm against Wolverine as a X-men villain because, no matter how much Marvel tries to overrate him, he's not powerful or smart enough to be a serious threat, and a anti-hero becoming a villain is not so interesting as an hero becoming one because they're halfway there already. And by imposing his will on everyone else, Claremont is doing precisely what he said it was done to him, whatever ideas Hama might had were going to be crushed because of someone else's.

Tell that to people at DC Comics who killed Superman off in the mid-90's.

In a few months, he returned, and not as a villain...

The Sword Is Drawn

09-08-2006, 09:23 AM

It's exceptionally rare that artists make good writers. They're great at designing, and sometimes coming up with concepts, but they're not wordsmiths - and sometimes they should accept it.

Yes there are exceptions. Alan Davis was a brilliant writer on both Captain Britain and Excalibur. But his work on X-men wasn't always as good.

The exact power struggle inclings mentioned about Jim Lee and Todd McFarlane are exactly what led to them leaving Marvel and forming Wildstorm and Image Comics - because they wanted to write, and wanted more acknowledgement for creating characters and stories. But how long did either artist really last as a writer? Lee on Stormwatch or McFarlane on Spawn? It wasn't too long before they were purely on those titles in no more than an executive capacity, handing the books out to actual writers.

Sometimes you should know your strength and stick to that.

The Sword Is Drawn

09-08-2006, 09:28 AM

First of all, i'm against Wolverine as a X-men villain because, no matter how much Marvel tries to overrate him, he's not powerful or smart enough to be a serious threat, and a anti-hero becoming a villain is not so interesting as an hero becoming one because they're halfway there already. And by imposing his will on everyone else, Claremont is doing precisely what he said it was done to him, whatever ideas Hama might had were going to be crushed because of someone else's.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree. Wolverine may not be an all out good guy. But he is the archetype anti-hero, and more importantly at that time VERY popular. I think it could really have worked. He may not have Magneto level powers, but he is so far away from being dumb. Wolverine is very smart tactically and psychologically. He's a hunter and as we know from Origins he's even been a torturer. He could be a perfect villain in that role for The Hand.

It has shick value, purey because the fans will expect him to be reformed, not expect it to last. But it would.

Frank

09-08-2006, 09:28 AM

Sometimes you should know your strength and stick to that.

Definitly. Although I have to say I thought Todd`s writing on the Spider-Man ongoing was pretty good. Anyway the images were so fantastic and what was happening was so compelling I never bothered by the rest so if there was bad writing I didn`t see it. ;)

Omega Alpha

09-08-2006, 09:41 AM

I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree. Wolverine may not be an all out good guy. But he is the archetype anti-hero, and more importantly at that time VERY popular. I think it could really have worked. He may not have Magneto level powers, but he is so far away from being dumb. Wolverine is very smart tactically and psychologically. He's a hunter and as we know from Origins he's even been a torturer. He could be a perfect villain in that role for The Hand.

It has shick value, purey because the fans will expect him to be reformed, not expect it to last. But it would.

He was very popular at that time?:)

But, anyway, i know he's not dumb, and he's smart tactically, but the X-men have several people who are smartest and some better tacticians, and against half a dozen (or more) X-men, in a roster which has some (or several) people who are smartest and/or more powerful than him, he doesn't have a chance.

Frank

09-08-2006, 09:46 AM

the X-men have several people who are smartest and some better tacticians

Like who? Wolvie is the most dangerous being on Earth. He probably knows more ways to fight than Batman.

The Sword Is Drawn

09-08-2006, 05:27 PM

He was very popular at that time?:)

But, anyway, i know he's not dumb, and he's smart tactically, but the X-men have several people who are smartest and some better tacticians, and against half a dozen (or more) X-men, in a roster which has some (or several) people who are smartest and/or more powerful than him, he doesn't have a chance.

I mean popular as in the 90s hadn't yet properly happened, Wolverine wasn't in EVERY book, and a lot of p[eople weren't yet sick of him.

Wolverine would have worked for me in this role because we all knew he had a shady past, but with the X-Men he put it behind him and became a hero. To have reformed, and redeemed himself, only to be murdered and brought back by demon magic as a pawn of The Hand is a good concept in my mind.

fishtaco

09-08-2006, 06:17 PM

I agree with most of what you said. Even though i don't like some of the specific things Claremont changed or would change (like Logan as a villiain and in a relationship with Jean), as long as he keeps the essence of the X-men, it's fine. And i would actually prefer if Xavier died in Uncanny #300; some of the best periods of X-men were with him away, even the best phase of the first series in the 60's and 70's was when he was (supposedly) dead, and the X-men did not have "daddy" to run too and were spread across the USA (Claremont did not invent that concept at all), allowing them to grow up outside Xavier's shadow.You provide a good explanation for why Xavier should have died, and you are correct in saying that Claremont was not the first writer to scatter the X-Men. However, I will have to say that he did a much better job. That status quo in the late 60's didn't last very long. I think the Larry Hama issue tells something important though. Who was the newbie X-Men writer and who was the Chief X-writer for 17 years? Whose interests really should take precedent over who? Claremont began his massive "Dark Wolverine" tale in 1989 with UXM #251. Long before Larry Hama was writer on solo "Wolverine". Why should CC change his epic (presumably already green-lighted by Harras, since the story had begun) to fit Larry Hama who was just starting on "Wolverine"?I don't agree with that. However, I think there was more than one solution to the problem. We don't know if these alternate solutions were considered. We just don't know. But you do make an excellent point about Harras already greenlighting the story because of what we saw in UXM #'s 251, 257-258, 261, 268, 273-275. Now that I think of this, I would have to question why Harras did not consider this before he hired Hama to write the book. When Hama was writing it, Logan wasn't written the same way he was in Uncanny, and Jubilee was absent, among several other continuity problems. Harras should have known this was going to happen. Are you sure that it wasn't really Jubilee (who was secretly living in the X-Men's complex at the time)? The diction in te note seemed more like hers than that of a computer...That's what many fans suggest. I believe it was left unclear on purpose in that instance, but there were definitely other hints of the computer being funky that as far as I know Jubilee was not involved in. Ive read about The Dark Wolverine,but i also have heard some mentions about Cable and how he was ment to become Ahab.This was all ment to start when Claremont was taken off Uncanny X-Men with issue 282.Trust me, this is false. You are referring to a line in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14. The X-Men (or rather former members, since the team disbanded), New Mutants (led by Cable at this time), the Fantastic Four, Phoenix (member of Excalibur) and her lost love Franklin Richards (from the Days of Future Past. Ray isn't a pedophile ;) ) are up against Ahab and his hounds. Cable fights Ahab one on one at one point, and his thought balloons say "His face!!". Ahab responds "What's the matter, Cable? See someone you know?" This was a comic written by Claremont, who already said by this time that he doesn't want to participate in Cable's development. Also, Louise Simonson didn't plan for Ahab to appear in New Mutants, and Rob Liefeld didn't have anything to do with this issue, and he also had no plans for Ahab either. However, this comic book was edited by Bob Harras. In books Harras edited, he would often insert dialogue into pages, sometimes without notifying the writer (Peter David quit X-Factor because he did this). The dialogue was interesting because it started a plotline that left readers curious. However, there was no substance behind these lines of dialogue. Harras would insert the dialogue without even having a story down the road, nor having any intent on having any story down the road. Remember in X-Men (2nd Series) #1 when Wolverine commented to Fabian Cortez as he grabbed him by the collar that his scent is familiar but he can't place his face? There was no bloody connection or secret history between those two. What was Wolverine trying to remember? That scene in X-Factor (1st Series) #75 when Mr. Sinister saves Polaris's life and says that he can't allow her to die? What's he talking about? The answer is that Mr. Sinister doesn't know what he's talking about, because there's no reason for why he can't allow her to die. Harras just put random dialogue in there for whatever reason. Maybe it was to keep the reader interested. Keep the reader chasing their tails. In my opinion, there's much better ways of keeping readers interested, by, oh I don't know, telling interesting stories. These lines of dialogue just contributed to the convoluted mess the X-books became ever since creative shifts became frequent. But the odd thing about it is that they were interesting and made readers at the time curious. Cable finding Ahab to be familiar (same pattern to Wolverine finding Cortez familiar) would make for a hell of an interesting story at the time, although I wouldn't say so any longer because of how Cable was warped into Cyclops's son, but that's just my opinion. There were a lot of lines of dialogue that were "editorial bluffs". I'd like to know the reason for why this was done. There's only so muchj you can cover in Uncanny.Remember, Chris was going to write both Uncanny X-Men AND X-Men. That's why he left Excalibur in the first place. And according to Chris, the plotline was going to develop back and forth between the two core books. Apparently, Chris agrees with you in that there is only so much that can be covered in Uncanny. First of all, i'm against Wolverine as a X-men villain because, no matter how much Marvel tries to overrate him, he's not powerful or smart enough to be a serious threat, and a anti-hero becoming a villain is not so interesting as an hero becoming one because they're halfway there already. And by imposing his will on everyone else, Claremont is doing precisely what he said it was done to him, whatever ideas Hama might had were going to be crushed because of someone else's.Keep in mind that Wolverine was not going to be a solo villain. He would have been The Hand's master assassin. That means he wouldn't have fought the X-Men all by himself. He would go up against the X-Men with Hand ninjas, not to mention Matsuo Tsuryaba, and because their alliance with him, maybe even Fenris. Also, I wouldn't say he's not smart enough. Contrary to what John Byrne might tell you, Wolverine is very intelligent. He's not a super-genius, but he is still very intelligent. At least under post-Byrne Claremont, that is. It's exceptionally rare that artists make good writers. They're great at designing, and sometimes coming up with concepts, but they're not wordsmiths - and sometimes they should accept it.

Yes there are exceptions. Alan Davis was a brilliant writer on both Captain Britain and Excalibur. But his work on X-men wasn't always as good.
I agree 100%.

Keith_Martineau

09-08-2006, 06:32 PM

DDM

09-08-2006, 06:44 PM

How far do the Essential books go? I have not read a lot of the things you guys are talkin about, and I'd like to.

I've commented a lot on what coulda been, and haven't read it myself. I should do so.

There's Essential Classic X-Men 1-2 which reprints most of the original X-Men stories & the Essential X-Men Volume 1-7 which starts with Giant Size X-Men #1.

spoon_jenkins

09-08-2006, 07:09 PM

How far do the Essential books go? I have not read a lot of the things you guys are talkin about, and I'd like to.

Specifically Essential Classic X-Men vols. 1-2 reprint #1-53. Essential X-Men vols. 1-7 reprint #94-228 (and also GSX, Annuals, and crossovers issues when relevant).

Keith_Martineau

09-08-2006, 07:12 PM

Hope they release a volume 8. That'd presumably take it up to the point I started collecting.

fishtaco

09-08-2006, 09:15 PM

Hope they release a volume 8. That'd presumably take it up to the point I started collecting.I would guess the next volume goes all the way up to Inferno, and maybe a little bit farther. But anyway....

Essential X-Men I (UXM 94-119, GSXM 1)
Essential X-Men II (UXM 120-144)
Essential X-Men III (UXM 145-161, annuals 3-5)
Essential X-Men IV (UXM 162-179, annual 6)
Essential X-Men V (UXM 180-198, annual 7-8)
Essential X-Men VI (UXM 199-213, annual 9, XFA 9-11, NM 46, special 1, Thor 373-374, PP 27)
Essential X-Men VIII (UXM 214-228, annuals 10-11, FFvXM 1-4)
Essential Uncanny X-Men I (UXM 1-24)
Essential Classic X-Men II (UXM 25-53, AVE 53)
Essential X-Factor I (XFA 1-16, annual 1, UXM 210-213, PP 27, Thor 373-374, FF 286, AVE 263).
Essential Wolverine I (WOL 1-23).

Omega Alpha

09-08-2006, 09:19 PM

Wolvie is the most dangerous being on Earth

Oh, boy:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Mariah

09-08-2006, 09:24 PM

the X-men have several people who are smartest and some better tacticians

Like who? Wolvie is the most dangerous being on Earth. He probably knows more ways to fight than Batman.
Gah!!! There are so many things are wrong with this sentence, it's not even funny.

The Sword Is Drawn

09-09-2006, 05:24 PM

Gah!!! There are so many things are wrong with this sentence, it's not even funny.

Although, interestingly enough, Wolvie was merged with Batman in the Amalgam universe. I actually quite liked Dark Claw...:rolleyes:

Keith_Martineau

09-09-2006, 05:36 PM

Omega Alpha

09-09-2006, 06:33 PM

An evil Wolverine, backed by the Hand, in a situation where the X-Men are NOT protected by Shield (as in Enemy of the State) could be very dangerous.

He's no more or less dangerous than any other villain.

Yeah, Wolverine is as dangerous as any of these guys:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6b/Magslee.PNG/250px-Magslee.PNG

http://www.cavesalamander.com/gurpsmarvels/dr_doom.jpg

http://darkben2.free.fr/images/galeries/images/artistes/vallejo/thanos.jpg

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/694/694370/the-villains-of-marvel-legends-20060307041757019.jpg

After all, he's so powerful that could give the Silver Surfer a spanking, such a great strategist that he leads all X-men teams, so smart that he makes Reed Richards look like Toad, etc.

And i mean, it's not like the X-men have, let's say, people with magnetic powers who can just take off all metal he has in his body, telepaths who can manipulate his mind, people with blasts so powerful that can get through even with his adamanitum or just decapitate him, strong enough to lift almost 100 tons and have a form as strong as his adamantium or so powerful that can throw dozens of lightings on him, much less a team with several people so powerful, isn't it?

fishtaco

09-09-2006, 06:37 PM

Tell that to the X-Men after Jean went villainous. ;)

The Sword Is Drawn

09-09-2006, 06:44 PM

spoon_jenkins

09-09-2006, 08:11 PM

After all, he's so powerful that could give the Silver Surfer a spanking, such a great strategist that he leads all X-men teams, so smart that he makes Reed Richards look like Toad, etc.

And i mean, it's not like the X-men have, let's say, people with magnetic powers who can just take off all metal he has in his body, telepaths who can manipulate his mind, people with blasts so powerful that can get through even with his adamanitum or just decapitate him, strong enough to lift almost 100 tons and have a form as strong as his adamantium or so powerful that can throw dozens of lightings on him, much less a team with several people so powerful, isn't it?
ITA. The other X-Men have basically been a superfluous sideshow to Wolverine. I mean, what were the other X-Men doing when Wolvie was hurling Krakoa into space? Or when Wolverine killed Proteus? The other folks just sat on their hands every time Wolverine singlehandedly beat Freedom Force. The rest of them would've been screwed if Wolvie hadn't cast that spell to beat the Adversary. Remember when Wolverine beat N'astirh and Mr. Sinister during Inferno? That was so kewl!

Frank

09-09-2006, 08:25 PM

Yeah, Wolverine is as dangerous as any of these guys:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6b/Magslee.PNG/250px-Magslee.PNG

http://www.cavesalamander.com/gurpsmarvels/dr_doom.jpg

http://darkben2.free.fr/images/galeries/images/artistes/vallejo/thanos.jpg

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/694/694370/the-villains-of-marvel-legends-20060307041757019.jpg

After all, he's so powerful that could give the Silver Surfer a spanking, such a great strategist that he leads all X-men teams, so smart that he makes Reed Richards look like Toad, etc.

And i mean, it's not like the X-men have, let's say, people with magnetic powers who can just take off all metal he has in his body, telepaths who can manipulate his mind, people with blasts so powerful that can get through even with his adamanitum or just decapitate him, strong enough to lift almost 100 tons and have a form as strong as his adamantium or so powerful that can throw dozens of lightings on him, much less a team with several people so powerful, isn't it?

Dude, we`re not taking about cosmic beings and demi-Gods. And Magneto and Doom are a class of their own. Magneto may be the most powerful mutant.

Wolverine is still the most dangerous being on Earth. And since now he remembers everything, he knows more ways to hurt people than anybody. In term of knowledge alone at this point in time, he`s equal or better than Batman. Batman is mere self-taugth pseudo-scientist. He`s more like a detective that knows how a few chemicals work; Wolverine has learned how to put somebody apart and build him right back. He suffered from the worst tortures known to man and he himself knows every torture techniques and praticed a few. He was in the trenches, while Batman was never down-and-dirty fighting for his life. He`s a pussy know-it-all urbanite in his little city with the colourful villains trying to fix puzzles.

Frank

09-09-2006, 08:32 PM

Magneto can beat him easily with the plated skeleton, as we've seen before.

Dr Doom? I'd still fancy Logan's chances.

Thanos - No f**king chance.

And Mephisto? That's like trying to beat the devil himself. His own son couldn't kill him, Logan wouldn't stand a chance.

Wolverine impaled Magneto two times. Both in Ultimates X-Men and in X-Men 1-3. And had the writers any sens, Magnus would have died too. Think about it: Magneto stripped Wolverine of his freakin adamantium skeleton and Wolvie lived to tell the tale. Bruce Wayne would be doing in his pants after 2 seconds in.

Dr. Doom could throw Logan in any alternate Universes. And he could hurt him real bad from a plasma bolt from his armour but in term of test of will in a drag out fight, everything is up for grab.

The rest well, Mephisto and Thanos are omnipotent cosmic beings, they`re off limit. Since I said "most dangerous being on Earth".

Frank

09-09-2006, 08:34 PM

Gah!!! There are so many things are wrong with this sentence, it's not even funny.

Well, prove me you`re not as ignorant as you look, sugar. :D

Deus ex Chris

09-09-2006, 08:47 PM

Wolverine is still the most dangerous being on Earth.
Storm, Polaris, Iceman, Rogue, and Marvel Girl are all more dangerous than Wolverine, and they're X-Men. I won't even go into the dozens of Marvel U characters that are more dangerous.

Well, prove me you`re not as ignorant as you look, sugar. :D
Funny. That's what we're all saying about you.

Jake V

09-09-2006, 09:01 PM

Wolverine is still the most dangerous being on Earth.
More dangerous than the Hulk? Than Ghost Rider? Than the Punisher? Molecule Man? Gravitron?

Sorry no. He's not the most dangerous being on earth. And this is coming from a pretty hardcore Wolverine fan.

Omega Alpha

09-09-2006, 09:26 PM

Wolverine is still the most dangerous being on Earth.

List of MU characters, among the Earth-based only, that SURELY are more dangerous than Wolverine, and i'm not even counting Dr. Doom and Magneto, as you asked:

Hulk
Ghost Rider
Mr. Sinister
Apocalipse
Namor (who is powerful in every way possible: he rules 75% of Earth)
Dr. Strange
Ultron (does robots count?)
Molecule Man
Iron Man
Polaris
Iceman
Storm
Marvel Girl
Reed Richards (most inteligent man alive)
Invisible Woman
The Thing
The Human Torch
Psylocke
Cassandra Nova
Cable
Shadow King (well, he's on the Astral Plane, but i think he should count)
Vulcan
Mikhail Raspuntin
Living Monolith
Franklin Richards (the kid is as powerful as an Celestial)
The Sentry

And there's way more people that i think that are more dangerous than Wolverine, but can be discussed.

Affinity

09-09-2006, 09:39 PM

Therefore, Wolverine is not the most dangerous person on Earth.

Agreed!

Keith_Martineau

09-09-2006, 11:31 PM

Firemane

09-10-2006, 12:16 AM

Sabertooth
Captain America
Iron man
War Machine
The Thing
The Hulk
The Sentry
Human Torch
To name a few,,,,

It all depends on who is writing the characters at the time and where they want the story to go.

fishtaco

09-10-2006, 12:37 AM

Dude, we`re not taking about cosmic beings and demi-Gods. And Magneto and Doom are a class of their own. Magneto may be the most powerful mutant.

Wolverine is still the most dangerous being on Earth. And since now he remembers everything, he knows more ways to hurt people than anybody. In term of knowledge alone at this point in time, he`s equal or better than Batman. Batman is mere self-taugth pseudo-scientist. He`s more like a detective that knows how a few chemicals work; Wolverine has learned how to put somebody apart and build him right back. He suffered from the worst tortures known to man and he himself knows every torture techniques and praticed a few. He was in the trenches, while Batman was never down-and-dirty fighting for his life. He`s a pussy know-it-all urbanite in his little city with the colourful villains trying to fix puzzles.Not to mention that he knows all of the X-Men's secrets, all their tactics and techniques, he knows their morals and what they will and will not do, etc. He knows them just as well, if not better, than they do themselves. That's what would have made him a serious threat to the X-Men, not to mention that he is dangerous anyway (though I wouldn't say the most dangerous being on Earth, but that's not the point). List of MU characters, among the Earth-based only, that SURELY are more dangerous than Wolverine, and i'm not even counting Dr. Doom and Magneto, as you asked:

Hulk
Ghost Rider
Mr. Sinister
Apocalipse
Namor (who is powerful in every way possible: he rules 75% of Earth)
Dr. Strange
Ultron (does robots count?)
Molecule Man
Iron Man
Polaris
Iceman
Storm
Marvel Girl
Reed Richards (most inteligent man alive)
Invisible Woman
The Thing
The Human Torch
Psylocke
Cassandra Nova
Cable
Shadow King (well, he's on the Astral Plane, but i think he should count)
Vulcan
Mikhail Raspuntin
Living Monolith
Franklin Richards (the kid is as powerful as an Celestial)
The Sentry

And there's way more people that i think that are more dangerous than Wolverine, but can be discussed.Well Vulcan, Mikhail Rasputin and Cassandra Nova didn't even exist yet. And the Shadow King would have undoubtely been a part of this, but behind the scenes, and why would the Shadow King fight an enemy of the X-Men, aside from Mystique? Wolverine suckered the Human Torch in the stomach in Fantastic Four vs The X-Men #1. At this time, Polaris was imprisoned on Muir Island by the Shadow King, making her irrelevant. Phoenix (or Marvel Girl, as you call her) was away in Excalibur at the time, making her irrelevent. Iceman is not more powerful than Wolverine, and certainly not back then when this would have happened. Cable at this time wasn't a super-powerful psi at this time (he never was supposed to be a psi anyway), making him irrelevent as well. Psylocke would have been key to this storyline since she was the red herring, and her alleigences would have been in question. If I recall correctly, the Living Monolith at this time was dead. Mr. Sinister would have no business fighting Wolverine to prove who is more powerful at this time. Same with Apocalypse. Franklin Richards would not go up against Wolverine at this time, for obvious reasons. Storm would, and I would say that at this time they would have been evenly matched. The Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Doctor Strange, Ghost Rider, The Sentry and Namor would all have no business fighting the X-Men's battles. Also, Wolverine was not going to be by himself. Like I said before, there would have been lots of genin, a jonin (Matsuo Tsuryaba), and maybe even Fenris, though I don't know that for a fact. Are you saying that making Wolverine a villain is a dumb idea because there are other villains that are more powerful than him? And if so, then wouldn't that make every villain pointless because in a juxtaposition there's always a villain that's more powerful than the one beside it?

Omega Alpha

09-10-2006, 12:54 AM

Well Vulcan, Mikhail Rasputin and Cassandra Nova didn't even exist yet. And the Shadow King would have undoubtely been a part of this, but behind the scenes, and why would the Shadow King fight an enemy of the X-Men, aside from Mystique? Wolverine suckered the Human Torch in the stomach in Fantastic Four vs The X-Men #1. At this time, Polaris was imprisoned on Muir Island by the Shadow King, making her irrelevant. Phoenix (or Marvel Girl, as you call her) was away in Excalibur at the time, making her irrelevent. Iceman is not more powerful than Wolverine, and certainly not back then when this would have happened. Cable at this time wasn't a super-powerful psi at this time (he never was supposed to be a psi anyway), making him irrelevent as well. Psylocke would have been key to this storyline since she was the red herring, and her alleigences would have been in question. If I recall correctly, the Living Monolith at this time was dead. Mr. Sinister would have no business fighting Wolverine to prove who is more powerful at this time. Same with Apocalypse. Franklin Richards would not go up against Wolverine at this time, for obvious reasons. Storm would, and I would say that at this time they would have been evenly matched. The Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Doctor Strange, Ghost Rider, The Sentry and Namor would all have no business fighting the X-Men's battles. Also, Wolverine was not going to be by himself. Like I said before, there would have been lots of genin, a jonin (Matsuo Tsuryaba), and maybe even Fenris, though I don't know that for a fact. Are you saying that making Wolverine a villain is a dumb idea because there are other villains that are more powerful than him? And if so, then wouldn't that make every villain pointless because in a juxtaposition there's always a villain that's more powerful than the one beside it?

I was saying that Wolverine shouldn't be a villain not because there are more powerful people than him, but because he's not powerful or smart enough to be such a threat to the X-men. I said that a thousand times.

Iceman IS NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN WOLVERINE? Logan is more powerful than an Omega-level mutant? Are you sure of that? 100%? Don't want to think about it again?:rolleyes:

And, anyway, even if only Storm was in the X-men among those i have mentioned, there would still have a team of at least 6 people whom mostly are a match to Wolverine. If he had a team with several assassins, to the point they outnumber the X-men easily, then he could be a threat, otherwise, nah.

So yer trying to prove me wrong by comparing him to the 4 most powerful villains in the MU? Bit of an overstatement don't you think? Why have ANY other villains when we got those guys? Please.

I was trying to prove that Wolverine is not the most dangerous man on Earth. Not even close. Not even the most dangerous X-man.

fishtaco

09-10-2006, 01:02 AM

I was saying that Wolverine shouldn't be a villain not because there are more powerful people than him, but because he's not powerful or smart enough to be such a threat to the X-men. I said that a thousand times.But he would be powerful and smart enough, because he knows them better than themselves, and that could mean everything. He wouldn't have even been a solo villain either.

Iceman IS NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN WOLVERINE? Logan is more powerful than an Omega-level mutant? Are you sure of that? 100%? Don't want to think about it again?:rolleyes: I'm not going to start debating current continuity power levels as that is not the point, but I am saying that during the time when this story that we are discussing would have happened, Iceman was not as powerful as Wolverine. This was long before the "omega level mutant" concept ever was concocted.

And, anyway, even if only Storm was in the X-men among those i have mentioned, there would still have a team of at least 6 people whom mostly are a match to Wolverine. If he had a team with several assassins, to the point they outnumber the X-men easily, then he could be a threat, otherwise, nah.=And like I told you, there would have been a team of several assassins.

Keith_Martineau

09-10-2006, 01:18 AM

I was trying to prove that Wolverine is not the most dangerous man on Earth. Not even close. Not even the most dangerous X-man.

I ain't saying he was the most dangerous man on earth.

I was just saying that he could have been a very dangerous, credible threat to the X-Men during that time.

d newton

09-10-2006, 06:22 AM

Essential X-Men I (UXM 94-119, GSXM 1)
Essential X-Men II (UXM 120-144)
Essential X-Men III (UXM 145-161, annuals 3-5)
Essential X-Men IV (UXM 162-179, annual 6)
Essential X-Men V (UXM 180-198, annual 7-8)
Essential X-Men VI (UXM 199-213, annual 9, XFA 9-11, NM 46, special 1, Thor 373-374, PP 27)
Essential X-Men VIII (UXM 214-228, annuals 10-11, FFvXM 1-4)

Hope they release a volume 8. That'd presumably take it up to the point I started collecting.
Whereabouts did you start your run on Uncanny, Keith? ;)

Arilou

09-10-2006, 09:55 AM

Wolverine is still the most dangerous being on Earth

Not even close. He's *dangerous* but not anywhere near the most dangerous man on earth.

Let's just show three Wolvie ownings....
One (http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/5827/spideyvxmen27xk.jpg) Two (http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3559/347225wx.jpg) Three (http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3559/347225wx.jpg) Now, I'd grant you that normally Wolverine is more dangerous than Peter Parker is (because Wolvie doesen't play nice) but when even a relatively low-level hero like Spider-man can flip him off easily....

Listing all those people who can beat Wolverine would be stupid. But Wolverine quite simply isn't anywhere near the most dangerous being on earth. (Just to take one example: The Eternals could smash him. Easily.)

Citizen V

09-10-2006, 07:54 PM

rwsmith

09-10-2006, 08:14 PM

Wow. That Dark Wolverine storyling sounds great! Seems like other writers used bits and pieces of it over the years, though. Magneto ripping out Logan's metal, Millar having the Hand kill him and resurrect him as their assassin, etc.

fishtaco

09-10-2006, 08:23 PM

Wolverine is Marvel`s current cash cow.A phrase from another poster,which makes perfect sence.Has anyone discussed the original outcome for the Phoenix Saga?In which when Jean died to sacrifice herself to save the universe,when she had the Phoenix Force.It was ment to be permanent,Jean was never ment to be brought back.That is what happened, except she did come back unfortunately. The original ending was for Jean to be lobotomized by the Shiar; she would have lost her powers and would have had to live the rest of her life human. In Uncanny X-Men #150, Magneto would have offered her the chance to reclaim her powers as Phoenix, but remembering how she killed 5 billion people, she rejected his offer.

Omega Alpha

09-10-2006, 08:46 PM

But he would be powerful and smart enough, because he knows them better than themselves, and that could mean everything. He wouldn't have even been a solo villain either.

About the part with italics: sorry, but that's bullshit. It's just one of those lines written to make Wolverine look like the ultimate badasss, that could kick full-fed Galactus butt on his own.

And i still don't buy that a character whose strength and agility are not superhuman, who has a healing factor that could resist to much, but not anything, it's not regenerative, and would have been in a very low level at the time (like CC said), whose only offensive power needs hand to hand combat while in the team there are plenty who can hit him from far away, whom is far from being the X-men's greatest tactician, specially considering he loses his temper easily, etc, it's smart and powerful enough to be a serious threat to a team with at least 6 or 7 X-men alone. And, unless i'm wrong, there would be 2 X-men teams at the time already, so he would have to take at least a 12 X-men alone. And considering that many or most could beat him by himself, no, he's not such a threat at all.

I'm not going to start debating current continuity power levels as that is not the point, but I am saying that during the time when this story that we are discussing would have happened, Iceman was not as powerful as Wolverine. This was long before the "omega level mutant" concept ever was concocted.

And like I told you, there would have been a team of several assassins.

Even at that time, Iceman was way more powerful than Wolverine. He was using that belt to control his powers because Loki made them out of control and it was already clear that he was more powerful than everyone thought he was. Even so, it was already show that, if Wolverine sticks his claws in his chest or cut off his arm in the iceform, he can just grow it back, easily. And even in the first Uncanny run, he held on his own against Magneto well once.

And if Wolverine would have a team with several assassins on his level, then he could be a serious threat. But, like i said, not alone.