The Anti-Illuminati?

[Norrin Radd]

Wouldn't it be kinda cool if there was an anti-Illuminati group made up of earth's greatest villains? Maybe they could be behind all the troubles that the heroes in Civil War are experiencing. It would be similar to the Acts of Vengeance thing.

It would consist of...

Doctor Doom: Lord of Latveria, undisputed master of science and magic, ruler of the most technologically advanced country in the world, enemy of Reed Richards and the Fantastic Four

Baron Strucker: Supreme Commander of Hydra, head of the most dangerous terrorist organization on Earth, enemy of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Captain America

The Kingpin: American Crimelord, newly emerged leader of the worldwide crime syndicate: The Maggia, enemy of Spider-Man and Daredevil

The Mandarin: Wielder of the Ten Makluan Rings, head of the Asian underworld, enemy of Iron Man

Krang: Warlord of the Depths, new master of the barbarian tribes of Atlantis, enemy of Namor

Mister Sinister: Master Geneticist, leader of the Marauders, enemy of the X-Men

Their mission: To secretly initiate the creation of the Super-hero Registration Act in order to sow distrust and betrayal between Earth's greatest heroes. Why? Revenge.

What do ya think?

[XPac]

We did have Acts of Vengeance back in the day. Neat idea... horrible execution.

But the thing is that a bunch of goodguys can BARELY stay in the room together without things exploding. A bunch of A list villians would explode sooner than later.

[brundlefly]

We did have Acts of Vengeance back in the day. Neat idea... horrible execution.

But the thing is that a bunch of goodguys can BARELY stay in the room together without things exploding. A bunch of A list villians would explode sooner than later.

That was the best part of AOV, the villains getting into fights with each other and Loki having to come in and break it up. Those scenes were priceless, much better than most of the hero vs. villain fights.

[XPac]

That was the best part of AOV, the villains getting into fights with each other and Loki having to come in and break it up. Those scenes were priceless, much better than most of the hero vs. villain fights.

It was an interesting dynamic.

Doom (or a Doombot at least), Magneto, and Red Skull sitting at the same table is quite a sight to see. Skull in particular, since his very presence almost makes everyone else seem less evil by comparssison.

I will say this... given the fractured nature of the hero community, I do think Villians united story would make a nice follow up big "event" for Marvel.

[Haunt]

he's right about most villains be unable to work with one another. that's why you only use the low key guys; those who are used to presenting a false face to law abiding society while manipulating behind the scenes.

Anti-Illuminati aka the Zodiac

1. Tristam Silver [the real one]
2. Elias Bogan [hellfire club]
3. Sinclair Abbott [Spymaster]
4. Tiberius Stone [Iron Monger II]
5. Sunset Bain [Madame Menace]
6. Bentley Whitmore [Wizard] or Quentin Beck [Mysterio]
7. Justine Hammer [Crimson Cowl]

and a few others. but i'm mainly just using underworld figures with personal wealth at their disposal. maybe there's a lot of turnover in the group. like that Von Bardas woman from Secret War might have been a member. or someone like Wilson Fisk or Norman Osborn before being jailed.

[foxfire]

I'm confused... I thought Viper aka Madame Hydra led HYDRA? Or is it Baron Strucker...

[Haunt]

I'm confused... I thought Viper aka Madame Hydra led HYDRA? Or is it Baron Strucker...

their are many factions. Viper seems more interested in the Hellfire Club, lately.

[XPac]

their are many factions. Viper seems more interested in the Hellfire Club, lately.

Is Viper still in the Hellfire club? Was she in the lastest version Whedon is using in Astonishing?

[MarcSpector13]

Isnt Baron Von Strucker dead? Like didnt The Gorgon kill him in Wolverine's Enemy of the Stae arc?

[XPac]

Isnt Baron Von Strucker dead? Like didnt The Gorgon kill him in Wolverine's Enemy of the Stae arc?

In TBolts that was retconned to be a fake. He's alive and well.

[Haunt]

Is Viper still in the Hellfire club? Was she in the lastest version Whedon is using in Astonishing?


she hasn't appeared in Astonishing but i couldn't begin to tell you what's going on with the new Hellfire Club.

[Omega Alpha]

I don't see Mr. Sinister being a part of this, his goals are too much different from those of the rest of the group. He's not interested in killing the X-men, for start, and doesn't seem to care very much about world domination or money.

[XPac]

she hasn't appeared in Astonishing but i couldn't begin to tell you what's going on with the new Hellfire Club.

Well, even if Viper is in the Hellfire Club, I'll wager Whendon wouldn't want to use her because having her and Agent Brand as regular characters in the book would be just too confusing.

[MarcSpector13]

Then if Struckers back well Hydra only cares about killing everyone so they could care less about the rest of the villains in said plot

[XPac]

Then if Struckers back well Hydra only cares about killing everyone so they could care less about the rest of the villains in said plot

Hydra knows how to network. He is already scheming with Zemo in TBolts.

[brundlefly]

Doom (or a Doombot at least), Magneto, and Red Skull sitting at the same table is quite a sight to see. Skull in particular, since his very presence almost makes everyone else seem less evil by comparssison.

I will say this... given the fractured nature of the hero community, I do think Villians united story would make a nice follow up big "event" for Marvel.

Skull's overwhelming racism always caused him to be the one starting the fights (with Mandarin for being Chinese and Mags for being a mutant and Jewish) and it was funny how not even the other villains could stand him due to his Nazi tendencies. Also, I loved how Mags only joined the group so that he could get close enough to the Skull to take him out.

I would love a Marvel version of VILLAINS UNITED. That would be a great mini-series.


I'm confused... I thought Viper aka Madame Hydra led HYDRA? Or is it Baron Strucker...

Baron Strucker's the one running HYDRA after the reveal that Gorgon only killed an LMD of him as a show of "superiority" to HYDRA troops to cement his leadership in WOLVERINE. After Gorgon's death, Strucker got sprung from lockup by Baron Zemo in THUNDERBOLTS and is back in charge.
Viper was last seen aligned with Courtney Ross, who had declared herself the new White Queen of the Hellfire Club in Claremont's EXCALIBUR. Viper only goes by "Madame Hydra" and is supposedly affiliated with HYDRA in Bendis' faulty memory, which no one seems to have bothered to correct.

[Haunt]

Skull's overwhelming racism always caused him to be the one starting the fights (with Mandarin for being Chinese and Mags for being a mutant and Jewish) and it was funny how not even the other villains could stand him due to his Nazi tendencies. Also, I loved how Mags only joined the group so that he could get close enough to the Skull to take him out.

I would love a Marvel version of VILLAINS UNITED. That would be a great mini-series.



Baron Strucker's the one running HYDRA after the reveal that Gorgon only killed an LMD of him as a show of "superiority" to HYDRA troops to cement his leadership in WOLVERINE. After Gorgon's death, Strucker got sprung from lockup by Baron Zemo in THUNDERBOLTS and is back in charge.
Viper was last seen aligned with Courtney Ross, who had declared herself the new White Queen of the Hellfire Club in Claremont's EXCALIBUR. Viper only goes by "Madame Hydra" and is supposedly affiliated with HYDRA in Bendis' faulty memory, which no one seems to have bothered to correct.


Thunderbolts is a Villains United book. :')

[XPac]

Skull's overwhelming racism always caused him to be the one starting the fights (with Mandarin for being Chinese and Mags for being a mutant and Jewish) and it was funny how not even the other villains could stand him due to his Nazi tendencies. Also, I loved how Mags only joined the group so that he could get close enough to the Skull to take him out.

I would love a Marvel version of VILLAINS UNITED. That would be a great mini-series.



Baron Strucker's the one running HYDRA after the reveal that Gorgon only killed an LMD of him as a show of "superiority" to HYDRA troops to cement his leadership in WOLVERINE. After Gorgon's death, Strucker got sprung from lockup by Baron Zemo in THUNDERBOLTS and is back in charge.
Viper was last seen aligned with Courtney Ross, who had declared herself the new White Queen of the Hellfire Club in Claremont's EXCALIBUR. Viper only goes by "Madame Hydra" and is supposedly affiliated with HYDRA in Bendis' faulty memory, which no one seems to have bothered to correct.


Bendis writers the top selling monthly book in Marvel, so I wouldn't bet on his version of events being wrong. And again, given who we see in the current Hellfire Club in Whedons book I'm not sure we're seeing anything that conflicts with Bendis version.

I think at this point the idea is that there's a civil war of sorts with different factions of hydra fighting for control.

As for a Marvel's Villians United... that would be cool. As long as the end result wasn't as anti-climactic as the DC version.

[brundlefly]

Thunderbolts is a Villains United book. :')

Heh, too true, but Zemo's undisputedly running the show in that book, so we don't get any of the A-list villains squabbling over who gets to sit at the head of the table and secretly plotting to betray each other.

[Haunt]

Heh, too true, but Zemo's undisputedly running the show in that book, so we don't get any of the A-list villains squabbling over who gets to sit at the head of the table and secretly plotting to betray each other.

give it time. Joystick is already making moves behind the scenes. and we haven't really heard from Doc Ock, yet.

[brundlefly]

Bendis writers the top selling monthly book in Marvel, so I wouldn't bet on his version of events being wrong. And again, given who we see in the current Hellfire Club in Whedons book I'm not sure we're seeing anything that conflicts with Bendis version.

I think at this point the idea is that there's a civil war of sorts with different factions of hydra fighting for control.

As for a Marvel's Villians United... that would be cool. As long as the end result wasn't as anti-climactic as the DC version.

Oh, he's wrong in that Viper has long been independent of HYDRA and hasn't gone by "Madame Hydra" in decades, but he wanted a Viper/"Madame Hydra"-led HYDRA for his precious Spider-Woman subplot, so now everyone's got to ignore her history since the 1970s and just play along like we don't know any better. I've got no issue with the "factions of HYDRA currently fighting for control" concept, particularly after the events of Millar's WOLVERINE arc, but Viper suddenly reverting to her 70s HYDRA affiliation and alias without explanation is just due to his affinity for that era, not because it makes any sense. Plus Whedon's version of the Hellfire Club in AXM isn't the same animal that Viper was aligning herself with in EXCALIBUR.

Agreed on VU being anti-climactic, though. Just another Alex Luthor subplot in the end. Marvel's "anti-Illuminati" would be a neat idea, with their goal being to take advantage of the splintered super-hero alliances to seize power.


give it time. Joystick is already making moves behind the scenes. and we haven't really heard from Doc Ock, yet.

True enough; I would love to see a Doc Ock-led revolt within the Thunderbolts army. Plus there's still the Grandmaster/Squadron Sinister faction to deal with.

[XPac]

Oh, he's wrong in that Viper has long been independent of HYDRA and hasn't gone by "Madame Hydra" in decades, but he wanted a Viper/"Madame Hydra"-led HYDRA for his precious Spider-Woman subplot, so now everyone's got to ignore her history since the 1970s and just play along like we don't know any better. I've got no issue with the "factions of HYDRA currently fighting for control" concept, particularly after the events of Millar's WOLVERINE arc, but Viper suddenly reverting to her 70s HYDRA affiliation and alias without explanation is just due to his affinity for that era, not because it makes any sense. Plus Whedon's version of the Hellfire Club in AXM isn't the same animal that Viper was aligning herself with in EXCALIBUR.




I don't think it's that big a deal. Whedon doesn't seem interested in Viper, and Bendis is. Having her decide to leave the Hellfire Club and return to Hydra works okay. It kind of makes more sense for her to be in Hydra than the Hellfire Club anyways, doesn't it? She's a terrorist afterall.

[brundlefly]

I don't think it's that big a deal. Whedon doesn't seem interested in Viper, and Bendis is. Having her decide to leave the Hellfire Club and return to Hydra works okay. It kind of makes more sense for her to be in Hydra than the Hellfire Club anyways, doesn't it? She's a terrorist afterall.

Ah, it wouldn't bother me so much if it were an isolated incident, but this is typical of him outright ignoring or being ignorant of Marvel character history (dead characters constantly showing up with no explanation, people reverting to old aliases & alliances or acting wildly out of character because it's more convenient for his story). When Hudlin or Austen do it, they are rightly criticized as having a poor grasp of Marvel history and characterization, but Bendis seems to get a pass on his flubs for some reason. Technically, fixing his mistakes should be an editor's job, but since he's Joe Quesada's favorite, I'm assuming they just look the other way and let him do what he wants.

Whedon's so-called "Hellfire Club" in AXM doesn't have anything to do with the one Viper was aligning herself with. He only wanted to use the name and it's currently being speculated that his version is all just a psychic manifestation, not a group of actual people.

I've always liked independent, nihilistic Viper, who only aligned herself with groups (such as the Serpent Society, for instance) to exploit them for her own purposes, as I assumed she was going to do to Courtney Ross and the HFC. It wouldn't have taken much effort for Bendis to give us a panel or two of "HYDRA splintered after the death of the Gorgon and Viper, seeing an opportunity, retook the alias of 'Madame Hydra' in order to seize control of a faction of these unorganized forces for her own ends." But it works better for his Spider Woman subplot for Viper to have never left HYDRA and gone independent, so he's just not acknowledging it. Now readers who know better are expected to go along with the fallacy of Viper running HYDRA uninterrupted for decades while nursing a grudge against Jessica Drew, just so that his favorite female Avenger can have a spooky nemesis with a legion of terrorist followers.

[XPac]

I've always liked independent, nihilistic Viper, who only aligned herself with groups (such as the Serpent Society, for instance) to exploit them for her own purposes, as I assumed she was going to do to Courtney Ross and the HFC. It wouldn't have taken much effort for Bendis to give us a panel or two of "HYDRA splintered after the death of the Gorgon and Viper, seeing an opportunity, retook the alias of 'Madame Hydra' in order to seize control of a faction of these unorganized forces for her own ends." But it works better for his Spider Woman subplot for Viper to have never left HYDRA and gone independent, so he's just not acknowledging it. Now readers who know better are expected to go along with the fallacy of Viper running HYDRA uninterrupted for decades while nursing a grudge against Jessica Drew, just so that his favorite female Avenger can have a spooky nemesis with a legion of terrorist followers.

I was under the impression readers are expected to go along with the notion that Hydra is splintered. The Hellfire Club thing is still a puzzle (and that's more Whedons issue than Bendis), but it's not like Bendis had Viper say she's been running Hydra uniterrupted for decades. I think we're just supposed to assume there's a Civil War and Viper is claiming her piece of the action.

That's also kind of illustrated in how a faction is trying to get Spider Woman to take change. There's a power vacuum at the top, and various people are trying to fill it. With a bit of retconing that Fabian did, I think we now can piece together the various views of Hydra that Millar, Bendis, and Fabian created so that they all fit together reasonably well.

[Jmacq1]

Basically, HYDRA has never been anything -but- fragmented ever since Baron Strucker died the -first- time (Waaaay back in "Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD").

It's been a shell game for various criminal masterminds ever since then. That's why there's been about a dozen or more "Supreme Hydras" or "Hydra Leaders" that have cropped up since then. They've all been leading various different "splinter groups". So now we currently seem to have three Hydras: The one that Madame Hydra has resumed leadership of, Strucker's group, and "Connely's" group.

[XPac]

Basically, HYDRA has never been anything -but- fragmented ever since Baron Strucker died the -first- time (Waaaay back in "Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD").

It's been a shell game for various criminal masterminds ever since then. That's why there's been about a dozen or more "Supreme Hydras" or "Hydra Leaders" that have cropped up since then. They've all been leading various different "splinter groups". So now we currently seem to have three Hydras: The one that Madame Hydra has resumed leadership of, Strucker's group, and "Connely's" group.

And Hydra is a beast with multiple heads... so it's a nice metaphor.

Hmmm... I'm almost wondering if Spider Woman might have done more good accepting leadership of Hydra now that I think about it. It's bad PR for her rep as a hero of curse, but it's a way for her to curtail the harm that branch of Hydra causes and possibly even harm the other branches. Of course, the problem is that she's likely just a figure head and if she does anything they really don't like they will kill her.

[brundlefly]

Basically, HYDRA has never been anything -but- fragmented ever since Baron Strucker died the -first- time (Waaaay back in "Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD").

It's been a shell game for various criminal masterminds ever since then. That's why there's been about a dozen or more "Supreme Hydras" or "Hydra Leaders" that have cropped up since then. They've all been leading various different "splinter groups". So now we currently seem to have three Hydras: The one that Madame Hydra has resumed leadership of, Strucker's group, and "Connely's" group.

Actually, when Strucker got resurrected thanks to the Red Skull's schemes (isn't it nice how all the WWII Nazi bad guys give each other a hand with coming back from the dead? Skull with Strucker, Arnim Zola with Skull, etc.) in the SHIELD series, it was a major plot point that he reconsolidated all of HYDRA back under his rule, killing off all the pretender Supremes and Leaders and reuniting all the factions. Of course, since the events of WOLVERINE: AGENT OF SHIELD, where Strucker was believed dead again and Gorgon got killed by Logan, they're back to a fragmented state once again with a bunch of splinter groups and factions.

I don't have a problem with Viper, say, readopting the Madame Hydra alias to manipulate one of the HYDRA factions, given her history of using criminal groups for her own purposes. But Bendis sets things up like she never left in the first place and has always gone by Madame Hydra (an alias she hasn't used in decades), which is just one character oversight by him out of many. Hard for "Madame Hydra" to have all these long-reaching schemes in play and underlings tired of her rule when she couldn't possibly have been in charge of her current HYDRA faction for very long.

[Jmacq1]

Actually, when Strucker got resurrected thanks to the Red Skull's schemes (isn't it nice how all the WWII Nazi bad guys give each other a hand with coming back from the dead? Skull with Strucker, Arnim Zola with Skull, etc.) in the SHIELD series, it was a major plot point that he reconsolidated all of HYDRA back under his rule, killing off all the pretender Supremes and Leaders and reuniting all the factions. Of course, since the events of WOLVERINE: AGENT OF SHIELD, where Strucker was believed dead again and Gorgon got killed by Logan, they're back to a fragmented state once again with a bunch of splinter groups and factions.

I don't have a problem with Viper, say, readopting the Madame Hydra alias to manipulate one of the HYDRA factions, given her history of using criminal groups for her own purposes. But Bendis sets things up like she never left in the first place and has always gone by Madame Hydra (an alias she hasn't used in decades), which is just one character oversight by him out of many. Hard for "Madame Hydra" to have all these long-reaching schemes in play and underlings tired of her rule when she couldn't possibly have been in charge of her current HYDRA faction for very long.

I don't think it's all that difficult, if you look at it from a different angle:

It could very well be that her "faction" is the same "independent" group she's had all along, and she's just recently re-affiliated it/herself with HYDRA for one reason or another.

Or conversely, maybe she never really -left- HYDRA, but has just kept that aspect of her operations secret/on the back burner all these years. She's kinda sneaky like that.

[brundlefly]

I don't think it's all that difficult, if you look at it from a different angle:

It could very well be that her "faction" is the same "independent" group she's had all along, and she's just recently re-affiliated it/herself with HYDRA for one reason or another.

Or conversely, maybe she never really -left- HYDRA, but has just kept that aspect of her operations secret/on the back burner all these years. She's kinda sneaky like that.

That's not a bad workaround, Jmacq1. Marvel should get you to fix more of Bendis' oversights. :D

[XPac]

That's not a bad workaround, Jmacq1. Marvel should get you to fix more of Bendis' oversights. :D

That's the thing... how do we know this is an oversight? Bendis has said that the story's not done yet. Bendis has an entire Spider Woman series in the works. I'm assuming Hydra will play a part on that, and am assuming (perhaps incorrectly but we'll see) that the whole thing will be fleshed out more when that series starts.

Bendis writers from the perspective of a crime novelist. He leaves threads dangling for the purpose of long term storytelling.

[Mac Danny]

It was an interesting dynamic.

Doom (or a Doombot at least), Magneto, and Red Skull sitting at the same table is quite a sight to see. Skull in particular, since his very presence almost makes everyone else seem less evil by comparssison.

I will say this... given the fractured nature of the hero community, I do think Villians united story would make a nice follow up big "event" for Marvel.


Best part of acts of vengence for me ws having Magneto lay some well deserved smack down on the red skull. Cool.

[XPac]

Best part of acts of vengence for me ws having Magneto lay some well deserved smack down on the red skull. Cool.

Yeah, cause Skull deserves it. But you know Cap would never do anything to the guy outside of KOing him. Sometimes it is nice to have a bastard like Magneto around.

Heck, in fact now that he's depowered I'm wondering if Skull won't find some time in his busy schedule to pay his old buddy a visit.

[scottv]

We did have Acts of Vengeance back in the day. Neat idea... horrible execution.

But the thing is that a bunch of goodguys can BARELY stay in the room together without things exploding. A bunch of A list villians would explode sooner than later.


I think that is very true but I would still really like to see this happen. As long as it is written well I think it would be cool!

[Mac Danny]

Yeah, cause Skull deserves it. But you know Cap would never do anything to the guy outside of KOing him. Sometimes it is nice to have a bastard like Magneto around.

Heck, in fact now that he's depowered I'm wondering if Skull won't find some time in his busy schedule to pay his old buddy a visit.


Thier fight was so one sided it was great. That is an example of good writing for a fight. Everyone knew the skull had no chance and that's what made it work. the only down side is that to be true to Mag's sense of jusice, the Red Skull would have ended up a Red Stain instead of trapped.

[XPac]

Thier fight was so one sided it was great. That is an example of good writing for a fight. Everyone knew the skull had no chance and that's what made it work. the only down side is that to be true to Mag's sense of jusice, the Red Skull would have ended up a Red Stain instead of trapped.

But we have to remember... Magneto is a super villian. And supervillians don't outright KILL people they caputre (even though that's the sensible thing to do). They instead choose to put them in "inescapable" death traps while monologuing.

If the roles were reversed, and Skull somehow got the upperhand over Magneto, he'd probably place in in an unguarded giant oven. Villians are just silly that way.

[brundlefly]

That's the thing... how do we know this is an oversight? Bendis has said that the story's not done yet. Bendis has an entire Spider Woman series in the works. I'm assuming Hydra will play a part on that, and am assuming (perhaps incorrectly but we'll see) that the whole thing will be fleshed out more when that series starts.

Bendis writers from the perspective of a crime novelist. He leaves threads dangling for the purpose of long term storytelling.

No, he actually tends to just overlook or ignore such things as opposed to going back and explaining an oversight or an out of character moment, so I doubt a Spider Woman limited is going to clear the Viper/Madame Hydra reboot up. At the end of the day, he wanted Viper back to her HYDRA roots and back to being a Spider Woman villain, so he just did it and didn't feel the need to explain the sudden reverse direction in her character status. It's not the first time he's conveniently ignored character history when it suits his story purposes and he's never felt the need to go back and explain himself, since no editor requires it of him the way they might for others writers.

[XPac]

No, he actually tends to just overlook or ignore such things as opposed to going back and explaining an oversight or an out of character moment, so I doubt a Spider Woman limited is going to clear the Viper/Madame Hydra reboot up. At the end of the day, he wanted Viper back to her HYDRA roots and back to being a Spider Woman villain, so he just did it and didn't feel the need to explain the sudden reverse direction in her character status. It's not the first time he's conveniently ignored character history when it suits his story purposes and he's never felt the need to go back and explain himself, since no editor requires it of him the way they might for others writers.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's better from a writing standpoint to go into Vipers motives in the Spider Woman series. Giving in NA would just be hotshoting it unecessarily.

I don't believe he's shown anything that conflicts with history... he's just shown her back in Hydra. Which isn't that bad.

[foxfire]

The Mandarin: Wielder of the Ten Makluan Rings, head of the Asian underworld, enemy of Iron Man

Krang: Warlord of the Depths, new master of the barbarian tribes of Atlantis, enemy of Namor


Isn't Attuma Namor's primary nemesis? :confused:

And I'm pretty sure the Mandarin is dead, right.

[XPac]

Isn't Attuma Namor's primary nemesis? :confused:

And I'm pretty sure the Mandarin is dead, right.

Mandaris is dead (and suprisingly hasn't been brought back to life. He has a son though.

Also, Mandaris is suppossed to be the enemy in the Iron Man movie so one way or the other we will see Mandarin again.

I'm not sure Namor has ever had a long enough modern on going series to really establish a primanr nemesis for him (if push comes to shove I suppose I'd say Attuma too). The only way I see Krang invited to an A list villian organization is if a mispelling occured in the invitation with an additional R.

[Haunt]

Mandaris is dead (and suprisingly hasn't been brought back to life. He has a son though.

Also, Mandaris is suppossed to be the enemy in the Iron Man movie so one way or the other we will see Mandarin again.

when last seen, Temugin was wearing a Mandarin costume and appeared to be possessed by the rings.

[brundlefly]

when last seen, Temugin was wearing a Mandarin costume and appeared to be possessed by the rings.

That's the last time I saw any mention of Mandarin, the rings, and Temugin as well. I think Temugin works well as a "legacy" character picking up his dad's mantle (and he's certainly better than the unneeded spawn of Kraven). It's just kind of strange that they let Mandarin's last defeat (his "Dragon of Heaven" exploded and he was presumably inside) stand as "oh, he's definitely dead after that." Not only has he come back from far worse deaths/defeats(Byrne's lengthy Dragons arc and the Heart of Darkness crossover), but in that last defeat Iron Man doesn't believe him dead for a second and states that Mandarin blew up his own ship as a way of ending the battle of his own accord, hardly a "definitive" death scene. But you guys are right in that, with an Iron Man movie with Mandarin as the villain coming out, he should be popping back up soon. I hope he brings Temugin under his wing as a father-son duo instead of just doing him in to come off as more despicable.