Tokyopop now censoring titles!!!

[Randycat]

Just thought I should point it out that Tokyopop has censored Vol.4 of "Tsukiyomi Moon Phase"...there's a big thread on what exactly was cut on the Anime on DVD forums, and the TP rep implies that it might happen again because they want to keep up their bookstore sales...this makes me SO MAD!!!

[MKTerra]

That sucks. Got a link to the thread?

[tstrike99]

I had heard that we were going to see some censorship form them. up until now I was hoping it wasn't true....

[Randycat]

You heard that they were going to censor stuff? From where? And, here is the link to the forum (the thread in question is second on the list right now: http://forums.animeondvd.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=mangaedit

[tstrike99]

I heard it from my LCS and one guy in particular that reads manga ONLY. supposedly we are going to see some stuff censored to comply with the big book stores who carry the manga stuff.

from what I undestand, they are passing them off as "teen" books (whatever that means)

[MKTerra]

You heard that they were going to censor stuff? From where? And, here is the link to the forum (the thread in question is second on the list right now: http://forums.animeondvd.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=mangaedit*reads*

Urgh. Yeah, that edit is pretty pointless and dumb.

Hmm, the TP rep is shifting the blame to the retailers.

[Azangel]

Tokyopop edited several things out of Yami No Matsuei...

Don't have time to track down the info, though.

[Randycat]

Nope, Yami no Matsuei was published by Viz...

[JDogindy]

The weird thing about Tokyopop is that the distributor is slowly becoming the manga version of Saban and 4Kids Entertainment, if you catch my drift.

[The Xenos]

So ball gags and bondage and S&M are ok, but nipples are bad.....

-screams and smashes keyboard-

dvx fdsirefgyiv47t8ioefrvaeuyn kfkffekguyftrvkfsgkrfugfregkkdfdckh

There is something very mentally ill about this country.

Let's see. Torture is fine, but the wrath of God (who is male and hates the showing of the female breast) shall be unleashed if we see a single titty. Janet Jackson was the Whore of Babylon. These are indeed the end times.

[Violently Apathetic]

Well, more reason to not support them and get the titles they've licensed 'elsewhere'...after writing a few well mannered letters I mean...

[Azangel]

Nope, Yami no Matsuei was published by Viz...

...and this is what happens when I've been stressed out too much for too long.

You're right.

Sowwy.

[Paploo the Ewok]

Serious folks, take time to track down the info. Look before you leap.

TP and other publishes do their best to make sure that their titles are as unedited as possible. Really, these are very minor edits, and in no way comparable to the modifications seen on 4Kids or Saban anime productions.

The fact is that the VAST majority of manga sales are done through bookstores. Bookstore buyers are the ones who buy the book for the bookstores, and it's often done enmasse with the bigger chains, with solictations going out up to a year in advance, usually 6 months, a good deal longer period of time then what you see in comic shops.

How often a title is published is determined by bookstores. The reaons you see more quarterly releases is that that's the format Bookstores have settled on- that way titles can build audiences slowly, and have a longer shelf life. Less rapid-shelf hogging by a monthly or bimonthly series. If you look, you'll notice the vast majority of TP's titles, and the less popular VIZ titles, along with CMX and Del Rey's releases are done in this format, as is some of Dark Horses.

Bookstores determine covers, such as the slight addition of a bathing suit to the cover of Instant Teen [though the interiors are unedited..... usually publishers can sneak interior stuff by Bookstores]. But in some cases, it does happen to the insides..... Why? Because Mature Readers titles aren't often carried by bookstores, or in lesser numbers. If you want those sales, and if you want your book's release to be feasible, you've got to be flexible. Otherwise, your title'll get shrinkwrapped by bookstores, and possibly encounter lower sales. Or it might not be carried by them AT ALL. This is why so few mature readers books get licesned for domestic release now- publishers simply can't sell them. CMX recently stated that from now on, they'll only license titles they can release without editing [and admit that Tengo Tenge is one of their best sellers---- the changes made with Oh Great's approval too. An unedited release would of been nicer, but would of been less feasible due to current market conditions, which are a lot different for manga then they are for anime, which is protected by being a) Movies, which get less hassle, b) Expensive, and more likely to be bought by Adults and c) Less Noticed by the Angry Mom Brigade]

If you want to see less edits made to your books, order unedited mature readers books at your local comic shop, who have less qualms about these things. Let your bookseller know you want mature readers books, mabye advise them to seperate stuff for kids and stuff for older readers. And try to change the whole Angry Mom Brigade situation. If you look at articles about he Comic Book Defense Fund, you can read some real horror stories that companies like VIZ and TP are simply trying to avoid.

[Inkthinker]

The whole "Oh Great approved the changes" thing is interesting... because what no-one asks is why O!G was under the impression that the changes were absolutely necessary. Hmmmm... perhaps someone told him his book wouldn't sell in the relatively puritan USA without major changes? I guess we're not likely to ever know, unless someone who speaks both languages and cares enough AND has the right connections can ask him.

TJTG is NOT a title for children, and to market to anyone under 18 is incredibly irresponsible... you can draw over all the nipples you like, but the fact remains that it's a story full of brutal, graphic violence in addition to a LOT of sex. It took a seriously large number of edits, from overlays to crops and blocks, in order to bring that title down to the 13+ market, and one has to wonder why, aside from greed, any publisher would make such a move at all.

Last fun rumour... for a best-seller, grapevine says that CMX won't be renewing the license or completing the series. Could be just a false rumour, but I for one look forward to checking out how they handle volume 10, in which a small child has his foot graphically (and I mean GRAPHICALLY) mutilated by another child. Well, maybe they'll just edit that part out... it's central to some character development, but who cares? In volume 14 a major character gets literally filleted along one arm (again, quite graphically) and then cut in two in a focal, climactic scene (nice drawing of the lungs in cross-section)... but I suppose they can slap a sound effect over it.

As for bookstore not being willing to carry mature titles... I haven't had a problem getting Berserk from Borders, and you don't get much more mature than that. Rape, graphic mutilation, torture... but sold in shrink-wrap and clearly labeled.

AND selling quite well, too.

[Xero Kaiser]

But in some cases, it does happen to the insides..... Why? Because Mature Readers titles aren't often carried by bookstores, or in lesser numbers.

Eh? The same bookstores that have absolutely no problem selling every other Mature Readers title? Or porn?

Maybe CMX thought there'd be more potential sales in a "teen" rated book, but let's not pretend bookstores have any problem selling Mature Readers books

[apple pro]

in my bookstore, there is a photography table meant to promote the photography/art book section. on the little stand is a front cover of a photo of beautiful woman bare-chested presumably by a famous photographer.

bookstores sell mature material no problem.

[Chevan]

bookstores sell mature material no problem.

Hell, some places sell porn, let alone art books. I'm not trying to deny that as the industry stands now, stores won't sell mature titles. I just don't think that makes sense.

And those are some pretty useless edits. Somehow, editing out the nipple when the entire breast is left uncensored and exposed seems a bit pointless.

[The Xenos]

The thing that gets me about this Tsukiyomi edit is it somewhat doesn't make sense. You can show breasts, just not nipples. You can show someoned in bondage, cut up, and a ball gag, but not nipples.

How does that make sense?

[Paploo the Ewok]

The funny thing with bookstores is that they all have different standards, and standards for different sections.

No one said edits ever had to make sense. But they're not really the end of the world....

[Len Ikari145]

If TokyoPop does any edits to SDK that omit Yuya's "fanservice moments", HEADS WILL ROLL!:mad:

[Sandoz]

I know I shouldn't be surprised, given America's mind boggling "Sex/nudity bad, graphic violence okay" attitude, but I'm still shocked that censorship is an issue with manga in this day and age.

It's kind of funny. I remember fans freaking out when Angel Sanctuary was licensed; they never thought that a series featuring incest, gender-bending, rape, graphic violence, and a hero who joins demons to fight the "evil" Judeo-Christian god would ever make it to America intact, and its saving grace may have been the fact that the one thing it doesn't have is frontal nudity.

[The Xenos]

You know, for example, the censorship by Viz in I's could somewhat undserstand. It's a pretty non graphic book otherwise. (Right? Not sure, but I thought so.) Yet here there is some pretty kinky stuff going on and they took out the nipples and left in the kinky sexual stuff in. I just don't get that.

So, according to Tokyopop's standards and practices: Using a BALLGAG on a woman? GOOD. Her NIPPLES? BAD. Rember kids, treading women like the submissive whores they are is good, but their natual body is bad.

[MKTerra]

You know, for example, the censorship by Viz in I's could somewhat undserstand. It's a pretty non graphic book otherwise. (Right? Not sure, but I thought so.) Yet here there is some pretty kinky stuff going on and they took out the nipples and left in the kinky sexual stuff in. I just don't get that.

So, according to Tokyopop's standards and practices: Using a BALLGAG on a woman? GOOD. Her NIPPLES? BAD. Rember kids, treading women like the submissive whores they are is good, but their natual body is bad.One possibility is that the retailers don't research the products in detail when they make their rules, so they're blocking low while the manga's hitting mid (so to speak).

[chojinlocke]

You know, for example, the censorship by Viz in I's could somewhat understand. It's a pretty non graphic book otherwise. (Right? Not sure, but I thought so.) Yet here there is some pretty kinky stuff going on and they took out the nipples and left in the kinky sexual stuff in. I just don't get that.

So, according to Tokyopop's standards and practices: Using a BALLGAG on a woman? GOOD. Her NIPPLES? BAD. Rember kids, treading women like the submissive whores they are is good, but their natual body is bad.

I think the censorship is stupid too, but it really it IS coming from the retailers. I am not sure if the censorship was pre-emptive: "Whoa, retailers have been really down about nipples, lets take them out, so they won't freak out." Or if preview copies are shipped out and it's like: "We saw some nipples in this book, we won't carry it in our stores like that, shrink-wrap it or edit it! It is really ridiculous to think that ballgags and groping/rape is ok as long as there are no areola visible. But that is what they ask for.
It's like when you see a special edition of a movie and realize what did and didn't make past the censors to make it pg-13 instead of R or R instead of X. I want my manga unedited too, and crap like this isn't something I can really support, but in this weird post Janet Jackson boob era, this kind of stuff is what is going to happen to get books (all books) on the shelves not shrink-wrapped. Supposedly shrink-wrapped books cut sales down by about 30 -40% (this is just what I have heard, the real figures may be lower). Not so much people buying them or not, but what the bookstores Order. It's one of those things where certain stores my not carry SW books, or they are antsy about them, just like some small town theaters won't show movies they deem too racy, or back in the day, they wouldn't carry 2 Live Crew. It may not be right, but it is a sad sad fact. I think this kind of thinking is going to be the norm for a while. Maybe if enough people brought this up to retailers, and buyers of stores (like asking them about what their feelings are on censorship, how they decide what to cut that makes them feel "comfortable", do they have a written policy, etc.) that might be the way to go. This isn't a book I was following at all, but having seen what is edited, the double standard is just plain dumb.
One thing I've learned from talking to publishers is that licensors from Japan don't really care that much about how artistic the books they license remain once they leave Japan. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but I've heard it from several publishers. They already make the money from the license, they make money from the book already selling thousands upon thousands of copies (if not millions) in Japan. If a publisher says, "This is what we have to cut if we want to sell the book/video/CD", most of the time they go, "Ok, it's your stupid hang ups (remember they still have the uncut version there)... cut it up and send us the check you owe us for the largest amount you can get." Of course this is a broad generalization, and I'm sure there are plenty of artists who have some control and don't want their stuff edited, but it's not too far off from what the entertainment industry is like. Do you really think if the bigwigs cared, they would let all the cuts like Lollipops instead of Cigarettes happen in the One Piece anime, or the "Cousins" in Sailor Moon? Heck no! It's about $$$$$$$$$$$
I want to vote with my dollars, but sometimes it is hard to figure out exactly who to send my money to. If I ban every company who edits manga from my read list, I won't be reading much manga at all, if I buy books that are edited, I feel like I am giving in. It's a tough call.
Hmmmm perhaps this sort of thing would make a good CMI "inside the industry" column. If I could get enough people to comment on it....

and also what MKterra said.

[Inkthinker]

I wonder if there's editions sold in somewhat less puritanical European markets which are still in english... or do english books in Europe come from the same sources as english books in the US?

[Buzz Dixon]

I have raised this question before, so I'm delighted to raise it yet again:

Are you (rhetorical) as upset with Eros Comix putting stuff in their licensed manga as you are with Tokyopop, Del Rey, et al. taking stuff out?

[Drew Van T.]

Are you (rhetorical) as upset with Eros Comix putting stuff in their licensed manga as you are with Tokyopop, Del Rey, et al. taking stuff out?

Are you referring to Eros de-blurring something that was blurred, or something like that? (I'm not familiar with the issue)

If so, that depends on why the censorship was applied in the original Japanese edition, IMO. If the creator/companies did not have to play by the rules of the Japanese censor, arguably they would not have censored themselves (depending on their own opinion).

I wonder if there's editions sold in somewhat less puritanical European markets which are still in english... or do english books in Europe come from the same sources as english books in the US?

I'm told that the German and French editions are more easygoing in this respect, but that doesn't help you much.

[Paploo the Ewok]

I wonder if there's editions sold in somewhat less puritanical European markets which are still in english... or do english books in Europe come from the same sources as english books in the US?


Nope, the UK market essentially gets imports, and recently had extensive official distribution set up for domestic versions of TokyoPop, Del Rey and VIZ titles.
Germany and France have big manga markets, and I have a lot of exposure to the french market due to being bilingual, frequenting publishers websites, have purchasing lots of french manga at chapters.

Generally, french manga is about the same in terms of editing as english manga. There's a greater variety of titles due to the french market booming years before the english market [well before 1997-ish], but you still encounter edits, like how Sailor Moon uses the french dub names. Sometimes, manga will use french anime dub names, to tie into a really popular show released in the early 90's or 80's [name changes are less common in modern french dubs, much like in the US market]

If a titles aimed at mature readers, Glenat uses a different label for that, and will sometimes publish it in a different size [ala Battle Angel, or the more otaku aimed release of Naussicaa].... some titles are flipped, some aren't, depending on who they aim them at. There's a lot of variety, and there are several mature manga publishers, BUT It's really a market that LIVES on the younger readers.

So, censorship of stuff does happen on occasion......

The best example I can think of is the Glenat release of Naru Taru, released here as Shadow Star with very, very mild editing. After 2 volumes [which I have both of], Glenat cancelled their released of the title, due to it becoming too adult in the next few volumes for their general audience. It was simply too risque for them to publish. This was in the late 90's.

It appears as if EgmontManga picked it up later on, and republished it in 2001 [though this is actually the german edition. so there's no actual french version available after those 2 out of print volumes]

http://www.amazon.fr/Naru-Taru-Mohiro-Kitoh/dp/3898851494/sr=8-13/qid=1157120528/ref=sr_1_13/171-1480558-7875419?ie=UTF8&s=gateway And mark every volume with an "Adult" label. So, with many french manga publishers, if something's too adult, they won't publish it. Although, I have seen lots of stuff you'd never expect to see here completedly unedited. It's like it is here- editing is all over the place, and often makes no sense, but it happens because they want to avoid controversy.

http://www.manganet.de/ Checking Germany's Egmont Manga's website, it appears as if CHobits is also an adult title.... so they avoid censoring by placing titles under higher ratings then what they'd have in Japan and the US. Other titles with teen ratings in the US with adult labels there-
--Exxaxion
--Seraphic Feather
--LiLing Po
--The Day of Revolution
-- the manga version of Mouse [whose animeis out in the US]

PS-- Here's a french BD review site which mentions the Naru Taru cancellation I mentioned--- due to gratitous violence

http://www.bedetheque.com/serie-7639-BD-Naru-taru.html

[Robin3]

This bothers me, especially with tokyoPop's slogan, 100% Authentic Manga.

I guess they'd better change their motto. I've missed out on the whole Tenjo Tenge series, one that I'd like to read, but I don't want anything taken out. When I get some money, I'll just order the original from japan.

The other thing that tends to bother me is when they shrinkwrap a book and it doesn't have any T&A. If I get a shrinkwrapped book, gosh darnit, they'd sure as hell better service this fan. So it seems like they just can't deal with importing books from another culture, and perhaps their successs has begun to destroy them.

[Azangel]

I have raised this question before, so I'm delighted to raise it yet again:

Are you (rhetorical) as upset with Eros Comix putting stuff in their licensed manga as you are with Tokyopop, Del Rey, et al. taking stuff out?


Ok, Buzz...what are you talking about?
Also, damn good question.

[Paploo the Ewok]

Eros Comix works with the original artists to remove the censoring imposed by Japanese laws. So, the only way to get uncensored Oh Great! hentai manga anywhere in the world is from Fantagraphics :) And it means fans get to see some pretty wierd stuff. Not a hentai fan, but you have to give Fanta/Eros and Oh Great! credit for these works.

[Robin3]

I went to the fantagraphics web site and I didn't see Oh Great!'s works.

can you point it out?

I think you have to order the japanese tenjo tenge direct from an import shop if you want to see that work uncensored. I've never heard of fantagraphics having anything to do with it.

[Paploo the Ewok]

I went to the fantagraphics web site and I didn't see Oh Great!'s works.

can you point it out?

I think you have to order the japanese tenjo tenge direct from an import shop if you want to see that work uncensored. I've never heard of fantagraphics having anything to do with it.

That's because it's probably on the Eros Comics website.

Fantagraphic doesn't keep their adult comics line a secret, but they don't put book information up on their mainsite, which is meant to advertise their mainline ^_^

If you go to their links, there is a link to Eros Comix. Studio Proteus actually translated a lot of their manga.

http://www.amazon.com/Silky-Whip-Collection-Vol-1/dp/1560974834/sr=1-10/qid=1157625858/ref=sr_1_10/002-3326819-2297630?ie=UTF8&s=books They published his "Silky Whip Collection" [hope no one minds me linking to this, since it's just an amazon listing ^_^ I know too much about manga....].

They don't publish unedited Tengo Tenge, but you can get other Oh! Great works from them [if you're over the age of 18].

[Inkthinker]

Just beware, his porn work is WAAAAAY over-the-top. It's like he had a list of sexual taboos and perversions, and he was just working his way along. Rape, incest, more rape, bestiality, gang rape, incest... oh, and a little rape.

The second Silky Whip book is less fraught with disturbing content... there's even a couple of stories that are almost sweet. But either way, if you want to buy O!G porn from his early days, be prepared to be disturbed.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I don't think the "puritanical bookstores" excuse will wash, either. At least with the major chains. Across the hall from the manga in my Waldenbooks, which is a major chain also allied with Borders, is the explicit sex manual "The Guide to Getting it On." It's just as accessible the manga, not even shrinkwrapped.

[chojinlocke]

But you see they are trying to protect us.. Comics are for kids, "Getting it On" is for adults.They are separated by at least a few feet in that your local store so no one would look over at the other shelf.
I give up trying to understand why one thing is ok and another isn't. I'm surprised no angry PC parent hasn't pitched a fit about the aisle you are talking about.Weird placement for sure.

[The Xenos]

I have raised this question before, so I'm delighted to raise it yet again:

Are you (rhetorical) as upset with Eros Comix putting stuff in their licensed manga as you are with Tokyopop, Del Rey, et al. taking stuff out?

Eros Comix works with the original artists to remove the censoring imposed by Japanese laws. So, the only way to get uncensored Oh Great! hentai manga anywhere in the world is from Fantagraphics :) And it means fans get to see some pretty wierd stuff. Not a hentai fan, but you have to give Fanta/Eros and Oh Great! credit for these works.


Yeah, I'm in the same boat. Those books allow the art to be what it could without even Japanese censorship, which I also think is bougus.

I actually picked up some of Oh Great!'s stuff when i saw it at a con. It was Silky Whip, right? Of course, it was in comic book format and flipped, but that's all that was being published at the time. I've also bought the Japanese edition of his Naked Star takubon. I downloaded it, so I figured I should perchase it. Still need to find a translation.

[Robin3]

About that Oh!Great stuff--I found it. thanks, though I'm not sure I'd purchase it:

The funny thing is, I'm not looking for hardcore porn. I know how to get such material and I'm old enough, that's not the issue. I'm just bothered by the companies censoring racy material in manga -- but that's what makes the books fun. geesh.

to add some clarification for those good at math:
suggestive < racy < porn

[Buzz Dixon]

to add some clarification for those good at math:
suggestive < racy < porn
Also know as the "I-You-They Syndrome,"
"I read erotic literature.
"You read porn.
"They read smut."

[Daemon]

You know has anyone taken into consideration that in the states manga and anime still fall under the cartoon/comics genre in american and in america thats "Kid's Stuff". So thats why some of the stuff might be arbitriarilly censored like so?

So there might be some truth to the whole fact that bookstores may not carry certain manga titles unless they're censored.

All you really need is some Soccer Mom catching their kid reading a manga with OMG! Nipples in it and freak out and sue the book store.

After all does anyone still remember that case in the Mid-West where a comic book store owner was railroaded for selling a porn comic to an adult?

[chojinlocke]

That's kind of what I was saying. I have no clue why there hasn't been an outcry about yaoi yet. That is one genre that I thought would get parents up in arms. The first time a conservative mom realizes they've bought their daughter a book where guys are crushing on each other, it will be all over the media. I asked some publishers about this a long time ago, and they didn't have the answer exactly, just keep publishing and hope it doesn't happen was the bottom line. I hope that all is well and everyone can buy the books they want to buy, but sometimes (like the case you mentioned) it seems like a lot of comics (since they are in the bigger bookstores) are on the cusp of the culture clash of what is and isn't acceptable in western comics (at least to those who veiew them all as "kids books").

[Inkthinker]

When it all boils out, yaoi is really about gay men, isn't it...

All too easily I can see someone claiming that yaoi "pushes the homosexual agenda upon impressionable children".

[Jmacq1]

Eh? The same bookstores that have absolutely no problem selling every other Mature Readers title? Or porn?

Maybe CMX thought there'd be more potential sales in a "teen" rated book, but let's not pretend bookstores have any problem selling Mature Readers books

Yeah, I've seen "Battle Royale" sell through at plenty of "Big box" bookstores around here. Like "Berserk", they don't get much more "mature" than that.

[Paploo the Ewok]

That's kind of what I was saying. I have no clue why there hasn't been an outcry about yaoi yet. I asked some publishers about this a long time ago, and they didn't have the answer exactly, just keep publishing and hope it doesn't happen was the bottom line. I hope that all is well and everyone can buy the books they want to buy, but sometimes (like the case you mentioned) it seems like a lot of comics (since they are in the bigger bookstores) are on the cusp of the culture clash of what is and isn't acceptable in western comics (at least to those who veiew them all as "kids books").


Well, that stuffs mostly being bough by adults [ie- women well into their 20's], and some older teens, and the covers aren't very suggestive [ie- Two Pretty Boys, one of whom usually looks a lot like a girl, standing there]... also, they seems to be enjoying better sales via online stores and comic shops [Digital Manga has been doing real well in this area, with their titles outselling many mainstream titles in TPB format].
So, with these titles, they are being marketed at adults, are usually shrinkwrapped, and being sold in areas where usually only adults can get them. I imagine there's some bookstore chains that don't carry them, though it appears TP's line has gotten into many bookstores. That, and their covers don't look like porn, so most booksellers and mom's just don't notice em as much as some other titles. Shrinkwrapping, and especially higher prices ward off kids, which is something you also see with Berserk, and Del Rey's new mature readers line.

Although, yeah, it is just the matter of the ChristianParentsBrigade noticing it. But with the adult labels on it, they really shouldn't be able to do much. The reason you see editing when you do is most likely because TP/CMX/VIZ/whoever want to get the lucrative teen market though, where this stuff is more likely to be noticed.

[The Xenos]

All you really need is some Soccer Mom catching their kid reading a manga with OMG! Nipples in it and freak out and sue the book store.

After all does anyone still remember that case in the Mid-West where a comic book store owner was railroaded for selling a porn comic to an adult?

Yeah, but that same manga in which nipples were censored, they left in bondage scenes including one with a ball gag.

That's kind of what I was saying. I have no clue why there hasn't been an outcry about yaoi yet. That is one genre that I thought would get parents up in arms. The first time a conservative mom realizes they've bought their daughter a book where guys are crushing on each other, it will be all over the media. I asked some publishers about this a long time ago, and they didn't have the answer exactly, just keep publishing and hope it doesn't happen was the bottom line. I hope that all is well and everyone can buy the books they want to buy, but sometimes (like the case you mentioned) it seems like a lot of comics (since they are in the bigger bookstores) are on the cusp of the culture clash of what is and isn't acceptable in western comics (at least to those who veiew them all as "kids books").

When it all boils out, yaoi is really about gay men, isn't it...

All too easily I can see someone claiming that yaoi "pushes the homosexual agenda upon impressionable children".

I'm counting down the days. I can't wait for all these immature fangirls to grow up real fast once they realize their fandom could be in major jeapordy.

Of course, as much as I'm usually critisizing and even making fun of them, I'm on their side in this. Being kinda all crazy for freedom of speech, I'd gladly fight for their right to own this stuff. No matter how much I don't care for it, or rather find the fandom more than annoying most of the time, I think they have every right to it.

Of course, the milder shonen ai titles are a slightly different debate than the more explicit yaoi. That gets into the whole gay rights and gays in the media issue. I'm all for allowing those books to be published, though I don't know if I myself would want my kids reading them. Though there you have it, parents need to actually parent their kids, not call for books to be pulled off shevles. What's next? Banning gay couples from holding hands or kissing on the street?

Of course, this is why I think fans need to really start using their terms properly. I think they really need to stop using the term 'Yaoi' for all 'Shonen-Ai' because yaoi originally meant more explicit and pornographic sex was shown and the term was mainly used for fan made parodies and small press comics. Gravitation, for example, is not yaoi yet I keep hearing that and other series wrongly called it.

Of course, I think the stuff I got can be just as troublesome. For example, I've got some Eva doujins and a pencil board from lolicon h-game whose artworm I liked. Those might not be legal in someplace like Canada. Honestly, God bless America for our freedoms there. Here's hoping we can keep them. Heck, I just bought Alan Moore's Lost Girls.

Also, many of these shonen-ai and yaoi series the male characters are of questionable age as well.

[Robin3]

Also know as the "I-You-They Syndrome,"
"I read erotic literature.
"You read porn.
"They read smut."

I never said it was "erotic literature". Literature implies that it's high and mighty. Racy can be the swimsuit edition of Sports Illustrated.

But they're not f--king in sports illustrated swimsuit edition, so it's not porn. I think that's a pretty clear definition.

[Daemon]

Yeah, but that same manga in which nipples were censored, they left in bondage scenes including one with a ball gag.


Ah yes well you obviously didn't get the memo. Nipples and Boobs are destroying america's youth. So everything else is okay except just those parts, oh and possibly the penis. But other than for Viagra I dont think the penis is a good marketing tool.