Gail, what does this mean?

[Khusro M]

From the Comicon/Pulse report:
***
DC EDITORIAL PANEL – CHICAGO WIZARD WORLD
By BRUCE MacINTOSH

According to Didio, as a result of Infinite Crisis the character of Black Canary has been retconned out, and brought back to where it started in the Silver Age.

***
Gail, help?!?

[the4thpip]

She's no longer a founding member of the JLA, Wonder Woman is. The way it was in the Silver Age.

[EdContradictory]

So they unretconned their retcon?

[Drumore]

So they unretconned their retcon?

Or rather it was Re-retconned. I assume we are still keeping the simpler mother-daughter Black Canary relationship from Post-Crisis, rather than going back to the "Wizard-curse-baby-in-limbo-for-decades-mother-dying-and-does-a-brain-transfer" origin.

[Lester C.]

Larry Dixon is ecstatic about this. Think about it. In the Silver age Dinah was married to a Larry of an alternate Earth that was a police officer rather than a fire fighter, which means he was sleeping with her. Then again that Larry ended up pushing up daises so it's what you'd call a win lose scenario.

[DEWLine]

A bit of a shame, actually, to undo her "founding JLAer" status like that.

Just my two cents.

[shrike]

A bit of a shame, actually, to undo her "founding JLAer" status like that.

Just my two cents.

It's because Brad Meltzer wanted WW's status back.

I'm sick of the DC Boys' Club, personally (Didio, old roomates Judd Winnick and Brad Meltzer... how convenient they now work together at DC, small world, huh? Add one Geoff Johns to round it out).

[Lester C.]

A bit of a shame, actually, to undo her "founding JLAer" status like that.

Just my two cents.
It is, but unless you read JLA Year one by Waid and Kitson, a really good read btw, most fans don't know it and it's hard to miss what you aren't aware of.

[kel25]

I just hope you don’t get the back to the basics that other characters have been getting. You know where they reduce them to their origins and realize that no longer works in modern day so editorial decides to kill them. Don’t believe, me check out JLI characters.

Even Nightwing was slated for death because we can’t have 2 Robins and obviously if Nightwing has a long running series no one likes the character. :rolleyes:

Batgirl is getting back to her basics that make no sense. Her basics is that she is a character trying to redeem herself. DC seems to think her basics are her early child hood as a killer. Odd because it was her first killing that made her never want to kill again.

I could go on with so many characters but I won't. Sorry about the rant guys. I’m just a little pissed at DC because all of their great changes have caused me to cancel all the titles I was reading except Hellblazer.

[NickThompson]

I hope this isn't going to cause significant changes. I hate the fact that things are changing, and the only way to find out is to pay $2.50 for 2 pages in the back of a book. Couldn't they have done a book of origins?

[Gail Simone]

Here's how I feel about it.

I love BC. She's probably my favorite character, really. She's awesome in every way.

BUT sticking her in as a stand-in for Wonder Woman always felt a bit weird and distracting, even in JLA:YO (which I loved). THAT was the retcon. This is sort of a course correction, in my opinion.

It's a little sad, but ultimately, I think it's also right.

Gail

[Cloak]

But, why is only one female member allowed to be a founder?

[AllisterH]

In a way, I'm kind of disappointed.

For WW, being a co-founder of the league does nothing for her. What I mean is, WW should be bigger than the league itself and on her resume, her status as co-founder would be pretty damn low on the paper.

For BC though, this was a HUGE bullet point in my opinion. She automatically gains a rep as being a founder although she is to my understanding, still the 1st female leaguer to join after the founding and the 4th overall to have joined.

[Gail Simone]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think anything that relies on OTHER heroes is a bullet point for her. Dinah doesn't need it, she's badass on her own. The other stuff almost dilutes her, in my opinion.

Gail

[Lester C.]

Does this mean that Wonder Woman is older as a result of Infinite Crisis, or have they made the rest of the JLA younger?

[hellokittykat]

In a way, I'm kind of disappointed.

For WW, being a co-founder of the league does nothing for her. What I mean is, WW should be bigger than the league itself and on her resume, her status as co-founder would be pretty damn low on the paper.

For BC though, this was a HUGE bullet point in my opinion. She automatically gains a rep as being a founder although she is to my understanding, still the 1st female leaguer to join after the founding and the 4th overall to have joined.

Black Canary wears fishnets, rides a motocycle and can kick butt. She doesn't need any more bullets than that.:)

[Drumore]

But, why is only one female member allowed to be a founder?

It's simply how it was in 1960.
It's one woman better than when the JSA formed 20 years earlier.

Sure I wish there were more gender balance in the founders, but I'd also like more racial balance too (besides one being green). Yet I wouldn't want to see it retconned to include Black Lightning, Ryan Choi and Vibe as founders.
What's done is in the past, let's make things better today.


PS What was the first team which began with more than one woman as a member?
Was it New Teen Titans in 1980?

The first with more women than men (or accurately girls than boys) would be New Mutants.

[AllisterH]

It's simply how it was in 1960.
It's one woman better than when the JSA formed 20 years earlier.

Sure I wish there were more gender balance in the founders, but I'd also like more racial balance too (besides one being green). Yet I wouldn't want to see it retconned to include Black Lightning, Ryan Choi and Vibe as founders.
What's done is in the past, let's make things better today.

.

It does raise problems though.

Take Justice League the cartoon.

When the cartoon was announced, people weren't surprised that there was a GL and a Thanagarian in the league but they were initially pissed that it was John Stewart and Hawkgirl. Seriously, it worked out but did ANYONE initially think John Stewart should have been the GL?

The problem was that the league needed diversity and the first non-white member I think would have been Vibe which is pretty sad if you thinka bout it.

[Drumore]

Completely different circumstances: For the JLA cartoon, they are rebooting the team from scratch, today. They don't have 40 years of history to deal with.

If that were the case in the comics, sure I'd want more diversity of race and gender. But the Wonder Woman/Black Canary swap is editing an event in the past, saying all the stories from then to now happened differently than what was published.

[Perry Holley]

But, why is only one female member allowed to be a founder?That was my reaction as well. I can't think of any reason why both Canary and WW can't be founding members. Sure, that was the way it was done 40 years ago, but this is the 21st century; there's no reason why the JLA had to start out as a boys-club-with-the-token-female-added-in.

[titanfan]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think anything that relies on OTHER heroes is a bullet point for her. Dinah doesn't need it, she's badass on her own. The other stuff almost dilutes her, in my opinion.

My opinion is both Yes, and No. I do think Black Canary's JLA Status is critical to both her character/experience level and the way she's perceived in the DCU. She's probably the 2nd most respected female Leaguer after Wonder Woman. She has Superman's cell phone number. She's totally confident in her powers and abilities. Where did she get that, if not from the League? As far as I'm concerned, the Dinah we see today is a direct result of all of the character development she got from the League. There's a big difference between the Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis Dinah characters, imho. One of the things I've always attributed that to was Dinah being a founding League member.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

If nothing else, I always liked Canary's role as a founder of the JLA because of the link it gave the JLA to the JSA.

[Corrina]

Where did she get that, if not from the League?

The JSA.

When your mom is the only female heroine not dependent on a male counterpart and your 'uncles' are all superpowered individuals, I'm guessing you grow up completely unintimidated and utterly comfortable with superhero types. Look at the relationship between Ted & Dinah in BoP.

I can see her first reaction to Batman--"Oh, yeah? I bet you're not tougher than Wildcat."

[Ian Boothby]

But, why is only one female member allowed to be a founder?
Still better than in the old JSA days when the one female member was allowed to be the secretary.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

Still better than in the old JSA days when the one female member was allowed to be the secretary.

I want to see the deleted scene from JLA: Year One where Hal Jordan hands Canary a steno pad and says, "Could you be a doll and take notes on this, hon? Thanks."

[Drumore]

So THAT'S how he got a stiletto puncture on his chest.

[lograydmk]

I like Wonder Woman as the founding member (if there can only be one woman). I don't think she's the same as Batman or Superman. I think she would have wanted to get together with other heroes. Of course I love Black Canary and I love anything that giver her more story time.

I do have to say that I kinda liked the wierdness and even wrongness of that whole she thought she was her mother grew up in suspended animation thing. What a great mini series it would make re exploring Dinah figuring out her head kinda thing.

[Arawn]

But, why is only one female member allowed to be a founder?

Yea I always wondered why of all the DC teams, JLA seemed to be the biggest sausage fest. But then, I've also been troubled, by the fact that Batman always made Robin wear short shorts.:rolleyes:

[siuntres]

Here's how I feel about it.

I love BC. She's probably my favorite character, really. She's awesome in every way.

BUT sticking her in as a stand-in for Wonder Woman always felt a bit weird and distracting, even in JLA:YO (which I loved). THAT was the retcon. This is sort of a course correction, in my opinion.

It's a little sad, but ultimately, I think it's also right.

Gail

I'm with you, Gladys, minus the sad part, and I loved the Waid Kitson JLA YO retcon.

this, like other zero hour era tales needs to go away, but that doesn't diminish that it was a cool story .

Just like Byrne's man of steel mini no longer is cannon, but is still a great story.

BC was always cool on her own merit, and if anything, I wish they'd leave her as a former earth-2 character, the way they did with Power Girl, as a younger/former JSA member.

[Francis]

this, like other zero hour era tales needs to go away, but that doesn't diminish that it was a cool story .

Not quite all of them. I want to keep Oracle: Year One. But then it was written by the creator of Oracle (and his wife)* shortly after she showed up rather than by someone else many years later. Therefore it is perfectly in line with the initial appearances.

* John Ostrander/Kim Yale. Babs was alive before that, but certainly wasn't Oracle.

[Hybrid2]

Did they make Superman and Batman founders to?

[Headhunter]

It is, but unless you read JLA Year one by Waid and Kitson, a really good read btw, most fans don't know it and it's hard to miss what you aren't aware of.
Spot on, hadn't heard of it...I'll make it a point to check this out. :)

[the4thpip]

It's simply how it was in 1960.
It's one woman better than when the JSA formed 20 years earlier.


Red Tornado was sorta kinda the female founding member of the JSA.

[Lester C.]

Red Tornado was sorta kinda the female founding member of the JSA.
He fathered a daughter with a woman so I'm guessing he's male.

[the4thpip]

He fathered a daughter with a woman so I'm guessing he's male.
Golden Age Red Tornado was a woman with a pot on her head.

http://members.aol.com/censulj/dcu/RedTor1.gif

[Dr Ray Palmer]

You really don't see enough superheroes these days wearing costumes from Williams-Sonoma.

[Drumore]

Did they make Superman and Batman founders to?

Yes. The origin in Justice League of America #9 has been reinstated as it happened.

[Tommy]

You know JMS when writing Supreme Power was frustrated with having too many male characters, making Zarda look like a token female.

Of course this has nothing to do with the JLA.

[Lester C.]

Golden Age Red Tornado was a woman with a pot on her head.

http://members.aol.com/censulj/dcu/RedTor1.gif
That looks like more like a male center than it does a woman.:eek:

[Rhydaman]

My opinion is both Yes, and No. I do think Black Canary's JLA Status is critical to both her character/experience level and the way she's perceived in the DCU. She's probably the 2nd most respected female Leaguer after Wonder Woman. She has Superman's cell phone number. She's totally confident in her powers and abilities. Where did she get that, if not from the League?
She still can get that from the league. If the JLA was formed, say, 2 years after Superman got started, and it's 10 years from then till now, then Canary still has 9 1/2 years' experience in the JLA. It doesn't matter that she missed the first 3 adventures; she's still the longest-standing human superheroine.

[TCJohnson]

http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/goldage/RedTornado-AllAmerican024_14.jpg

[the4thpip]

Whew!
I'm glad Red Tornado didn't fall to her death!