If Manga/Anime were Retcon'd as often as DC/Marvel

[Tami]

If your favorite Anime and/or Manga story/series were re-done, over and over again, by new authors and artists, who kept changing the story and playing around with the characters...what's the best that could happen, what's the worse that could happen?

Of course, anime derived from an original manga has at least a 50-50 chance of ending up being a revision of the original story. The Tenchi collection of works appear to involve a lot of revisionism or retcon'ing. Though I can't think of any other anime/manga works/series that does it as much.

[XPac]

The thing about anime and manga is that things happen. Time takes place, people age. There's almost always a beginning and an end, and that changes how the stories can be told.

If anime worked the same way, it would have the same issues american comics had. Nothing would significantly change and no one would age. Very little would actually happen.

Naruto for example would basically become what the filler arcs are.

[Buzz Dixon]

"If Manga/Anime were Retcon'd as often as DC/Marvel..."

...it would suck just as badly as Marvel and DC's books do.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

The thing about anime and manga is that things happen. Time takes place, people age. There's almost always a beginning and an end, and that changes how the stories can be told.

If anime worked the same way, it would have the same issues american comics had. Nothing would significantly change and no one would age. Very little would actually happen.

Naruto for example would basically become what the filler arcs are.


Well the juvenile/teen heroes would age while the older heroes would stay the same (though some would occasionally change, I think punisher looks younger than when he started out).

[The Xenos]

This topic is brilliant and kinda hilarious. Though I think Buzz hit it on the head. Recons are the bane of American comics.

I Japan and Europe, you don't get this cannibalism and inbreeding. You don't have dozens of writers per year working on the same characters. You have an author telling their serial story. I think that's one of the blessings of non-American comics and some of the non-DC and non-Marvel US books.

Personally, I'd love to see Marvel and DC streamline authors and have something more like manga where you have one definative author telling their story with their characters. Yet it's just not going to happen.

We have to deal with trainwrecks like Loeb on Hush and then Winick turning things all around and Hush in Gotham Knights right after all that.

You have messes like Identity Crisis happening at the same time as War Games, yet Tim Drake's Robin has a person close to him die in each book, yet neither book mentions the other.

We have Devin K Grayson doing a medsa medsa job on Nightwing after Dixon who started the book. Then just when (I think) she was finally getting back on her feet, editorial stuck Bruce Jones on the book and it became simply unreadable to long time fans.

Now I'm sure there are editoral snafus among Japanese publishers we don't hear about, but I don't think it's as messed up as it is among Marvel and DC. Overall they seem to let the writers control the story in their own books. As for rights to the property, I don't know how they are. Though certainly Marvel and DC pretty much insist on completely owning their chatacters and can just pass it to another author.

[AndyAnime]

If manga/anime were retconned as often as DC/Marvel, it would suck. Hard.

The thing that bugs me the most about American superhero comics is how hard they struggle to maintain a status quo, only to overturn it in some big fancy-pants event every few years, like CoIE or Infinite Crisis... and then perpetuate the cycle of statis and cataclysmic change all over again. Whereas in many manga and anime, things actually change and characters actually develop.

[T51R]

If manga/anime were retconned as often as DC/Marvel, it would suck. Hard.

The thing that bugs me the most about American superhero comics is how hard they struggle to maintain a status quo, only to overturn it in some big fancy-pants event every few years, like CoIE or Infinite Crisis... and then perpetuate the cycle of statis and cataclysmic change all over again. Whereas in many manga and anime, things actually change and characters actually develop.

I'd have to agree completely.

Precisely why I stopped reading comics altogether; after Age of Apocalypse, X-Tinction Agenda and Phalanx Covenant[which was awesome since Rahne Sinclair had a good part in it] I put X-Men down on my pull list. I thought Image was on to somthing when they started The Others, that book had potential but it went to the dogs. I never started on Avengers but I did picked up Iron Man and Punisher: War Zone[my personal favourite] because they showed and grew the characters, and didn't pump out absured storylines that were re-hashed from five years ago. I kept going with War Zone the longest, and Shadowhawk until the first SH died from AIDS. The I pulled SH, and finally War Zone after the writing went to the dogs.

The I started with the Akira manga, and I was hooked. Then got into anime; the difinitive endings and one-way character development were totally new to me at the time; the dead didn't rise again, if they did plots were twisted around into something complex and deep, forcing the main cast to adapt or re-think.

It was a breath of fresh air; these days I just browse through comics for just that reason. I don't want to buy somthing to read that happened maybe a half decade ago and got reworked for a newer, younger audience.

[Inkthinker]

I feel I ought to point out that this is a condition inherent in a certain franchise business model revolving around particular intellectual properties, not American comics as a whole.

There are plenty of books that maintain a single continuity and largely a single creative team throughout their production run, and those books are rapidly becoming the norm rather than the exception.

It's not as though you HAVE to put up with this "revolving door" issue when you read American books. It just depends on which books you read.

[T51R]

I feel I ought to point out that this is a condition inherent in a certain franchise business model revolving around particular intellectual properties, not American comics as a whole.

There are plenty of books that maintain a single continuity and largely a single creative team throughout their production run, and those books are rapidly becoming the norm rather than the exception.

It's not as though you HAVE to put up with this "revolving door" issue when you read American books. It just depends on which books you read.

Hence why I only browsed Sin City, Lucifer and misc. one-shots ie. Rogue and Gambit. There titles are largely independant, and Image did very well IMO; Shadowhawk was excellent, a human hero. Valiant's X-O Manowar and Magnus: Robot Fighter were other exception back in the day, as well as Dark Horse's Predator and Aliens series[Cold War got me hooked on DH back then]

I guess it is in how a certain company tends to treat said intellectual property and the extent to which they are willing to push their licencing agreements[ie. a bit too far] wouldn't you agree?

[AndyAnime]

I feel I ought to point out that this is a condition inherent in a certain franchise business model revolving around particular intellectual properties, not American comics as a whole.

There are plenty of books that maintain a single continuity and largely a single creative team throughout their production run, and those books are rapidly becoming the norm rather than the exception.

It's not as though you HAVE to put up with this "revolving door" issue when you read American books. It just depends on which books you read.

Well, perhaps I should have specified most American superhero comics, then. Because those are the ones that seem to have this problem the most. I know there's comics out there that have actual continuity and character development, but how many of those are superhero titles?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

As a person who hasn't given up on American comics (in fact, I like them more than Mangas/Animes), I'll say these two things.

1) If Mangas had multiple writers and retcons, they would most definitely suck, because it doesn't fit the market. If the DC/Marvel Universes were streamlined, then they would suck too, because it doesn't fit the market.

2) For those who don't know, there have been many comics with only one writer, with a definitive beginning and end. They are rare, but have happened.

Examples:

PAD's Supergirl
Sandman
Preacher
Planetery (not done yet)
Starman
Arzael (sp?)
Steel
Hitman

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Well, perhaps I should have specified most American superhero comics, then. Because those are the ones that seem to have this problem the most. I know there's comics out there that have actual continuity and character development, but how many of those are superhero titles?

Invincible is an example. Seriously, I don't want this thread to become a "I hate American comics" topic.

[T51R]

As a person who hasn't given up on American comics (in fact, I like them more than Mangas/Animes), I'll say these two things.

1) If Mangas had multiple writers and retcons, they would most definitely suck, because it doesn't fit the market. If the DC/Marvel Universes were streamlined, then they would suck too, because it doesn't fit the market.

2) For those who don't know, there have been many comics with only one writer, with a definitive beginning and end. They are rare, but have happened.

Examples:

PAD's Supergirl
Sandman
Preacher
Planetery (not done yet)
Starman
Arzael (sp?)
Steel
Hitman

I think you can add Lucifer to the mix; I put it down but I read on another site that it will be reaching its ending within this year I think.

[XPac]

Truthfully though, I'm fine that japanesse comics do things one way and american comics do things another (and that of course is a generization in philosophy and such).

I'm not sure I would have wanted great characters like Batman and Spiderman to have aged and retired themselves a decade or so before as I started reading comics.

I think both systems have found ways that work for them and their characters fanbases. And that's really all that matters. That's not to say that the US comics don't have plenty of bad stories, but they have plenty of good ones too and we would have never gotten to see them if they didn't continue to exist timelessly as they do now.

[OverMaster]

Actually, I don't mind the ever changing nature of American comics. That keeps them fresh, while most manga and anime die within a relatively short span and restricted to only one view of its source material.

Take Batman and Superman. They have been around since the late 1930s, and while both have had their staggering amounts of bad stuff, the gems on their history balance them out. Without the retcons, we would have never had a Batman: Year One, a Dark Knight Returns, a Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?, not even B:TAS and S:TAS. If Kane, Finger, Siegel and Shuster had been the only ones to leave their mark on their characters, we wouldn't have had the takes of Miller, Moore, Grant, De Matteis, Byrne, Moench, Dixon, Dini, Jurgens, Ordway, Bates, Maggin, O'Neil, Englehart, et all.

Meanwhile, and especially nowadays, an anime dies after 26 or 13 episodes, then is left forgotten forever just so another one can take its place. I don't know, but this often seems like a waste. Especially since it leads to unending idea recycling with only the names and little more changed. Do we really need such an onslaught of series which are rehashes of previous concepts when we still could go with fresh takes on the originals?

[OverMaster]

I think you can add Lucifer to the mix; I put it down but I read on another site that it will be reaching its ending within this year I think.

And Savage Dragon. Of course, the Dragon is a matter of tastes; you either love him or hate him...

Also, Jeff Smith's Bone.

Maybe you could count Adam Warren's Dirty Pair too, since it is an American take after all, even if based on a Japanese concept.

[The Xenos]

I guess one of the few manga and anime series you can point to with similar franchise management is Gundam. It's been reinvented a number of times.

I guess Dragonball GT could also be seen as a similar franchise minded extention of character not by the original author.

I rather can't think of any others.

[Inkthinker]

Tenchi Muyo, as well. How many versions of Tenchi Muyo are there? 6? 8? Each with different continuities and often different creative minds driving them.

To a smaller degree, we also get the same effect when manga are adapted for animation. Filler arcs, artistic shifts from season to season or between series and OAV films... all the result of shifting from a single creative vision into a franchise property, where the characters become more important than the creators.

Stan Sakai has, to my knowledge, never had anyone else write or draw Usagi Yojimbo. Eric Powell is the only man on the Goon. Azzarello and Risso are the steady hands guiding 100 Bullets. Fred Perry has drawn MOUNTAINS of Gold Digger.

The fact is, when you step away from the franchise IP models of the larger companies, ret-cons and multiple creative teams become the exception rather than the norm.

[AllisterH]

Do we count separate media endeavours differently than same characters, same media, different setting?

For example, as mentioned, Tenchi Muyo has 3 animated series. The OVA originals, the Universe series and finallyt he Tokyo series. I consider the latter 2 tob e retcons of the first.

However, where does Slayers fit into this classification? There's the slayers tv show which is different from the slayers manga which itself is different from the slayers novels (the source material).

Would the former two be considered retcons of the latter or just re-imaginings?

[Paploo the Ewok]

Erm...


Does no one realize that Anime and Manga have retcons, remakes and revisionings ALL THE DARN TIME?

It's a simple fact of Genre entertainment. X-men's probably had less continuity revamps then some series...

Like say, Macross. Macross Zero rewrites some of the history of Macross set up in the TV series and older supplementary works. Macross: Do You Remember Love? is a remake of the TV show, with a very different plot. Macross II was supposed to be a sequel to the TV series, but was later retconned as a sequel to the movie, when they made Macross Trash. Which some people regard as an all-new continuity [though officially, it's a sequel]

Or Tenchi Muyo. There's the OVA continuity, the TV continuity, the movies that are supposed to be part of the TV continuity, but kind of confuse folks. The Pretty Sammy OVA series, which is a revamped version of the universe seen only in the Mihoshi Special OVA. The Pretty Sammy/Magical Project S TV series, which is a remake oft he OVA. The NEW Pretty Sammy: Magical Girl Club TV series, which is yet another Pretty Sammy remake/reimagining.

Or Even Sailor Moon.... everything from beyond the first season! Cause hey, that was supposed to be the end. So, they retconned it at last minute. The TV show also kind of retcon's Sailor V's history [as the manga wasn't finished till AFTER the anime AND the Sailor Moon mangawas done]

Then, of course, there's lots of manga series. Battle Angel Alita, which had it's ending retconned to make a new series. Assorted manga remakes, and stuff like alternate Shoujo and Shonen manga adaptions of inprogress anime productions [like the 2 Escaflowne manga series, the two CowboyBebop anime series, or the 2 Magic Users Club manga? Or even the assorted Evangelion manga and games..... milk that EVA Gainax!]

Every El Hazard property is an entirely different show! See also dozens upon dozens of remakes and manga adaptions with different aspects, retoolings, revisionings...... heck, even in a little old obscure show like Cutey Honey, you can watch the Original Cutey Honey or manga, the Live Action Cutey Honey, read the skeevy New Cutey Honey manga, watch the less skeevy Cutey Honey OVA series, enjoy the retrotastic Re:Cutey Honey OVA, or enjoy the wholesome, "let's sell 5 year old girls lots of toys! YAY!" Cutey Honey Flash franchise.
Anime/Manga companies love remakes and money as much as Marvel and DC too. Because it's more or less the same buisness, just with more variety in some ways.....

And do I even have the mention the plethora of revamps, alternate universes, and mangled continuity of the Gundam series as a whole? [which Turn A Gundam supposedly makes a propostion as actually being one continuty? Well, until Gundam Seed messed that up....].....Gundam, and other anime company owned franchises, all mirror Marvel and DC's "revamp it for a new audience" habits. And their manga adaptions often reflect this.... gah, don't even get me started on the confusing continuities of Japanese video game companies.

And of course, neverending episodic series do exist..... see tons of longrunning shonen series like Ranma 1/2 [which was basically a sitcom in structure], or more episode shows like Hello Kitty, Sazae San or Doraemon [which recently got it's OWN retcon :)]

And CLAMP and Osamu Tezuka's respective playing with their universes.


It's not really that things are different in Japan, it's just that it's a WAY bigger market for comics, and thus things rarely seen in the US are more common, like romance comics, stories that end, and stories without endless revampes and retooling. But that doesn't mean they don't have their share of them :)

[Buzz Dixon]

The difference between a manga.anime retcon and an American one is that the manga/anime one basically punches the reset button while the American one tries to reconcile the new with the old.

If James Bond was a manga, the retcon would have him working for SPECTRE instead of MI5 and everyone would accept it, knowing that it was a variant of the original concept that had nothing to do with the original.

If James Bond was a DC comic, there would be a long and convoluted explanation stretched over 16 maxi-series that would explain how he stopped working for MI5 and started working for SPECTRE.

If James Bond was a Marvel comic, he would be gay, or a mutant, or both.

[Ontir]

James Bond ISN'T gay?!? :confused:

[Tami]

James Bond ISN'T gay?!? :confused:

I always thought he was Bi-sexual! ;)