Is the comic book industry dying?

[albert001]

I just watched this thing on the history channel about comic books and well...it doesn't really make me feel good about the future of the medium. The whole vibe was"sales are the lowest they have ever been and were just not getting the new readers to sustain the medium". Is this true? I mean are comics really gonna disappear forever?
I'm in baltimore maryland and from here it looks like that will soon be the case? any thoughts?

[cactusmaac]

Sales are pretty healthy right now. Don't know about twenty years from now but for the present time, the Big Two are OK.

[Joe Acro]

The comic book industries themselves are not dying. Quality work, though? Most definitely.

[Arawn]

Personally I've felt we were in another bubble. Much like the early 90s multiple covers and large scale crossovers are forcing fans to buy more and more. Sooner or later this is going to cause wallets to break and people will stop buying again. But is the industry going to go away...Not likely.

The comic industry is like the economy, it goes up and down every so many years. Right now it's going up, but eventually it will crash and have to start the climb all over.

[Jack Zodiac]

I honestly don't see the industry lasting another twenty years. No one's managing to bring in new readers, and the medium as a whole can't even attempt to compare to television or video games. That, and comic books are more exclusive to its current fanbase than ever before. In order to randomly pick up an interesting looking comic book, one would need to randomly locate and feel the urge to enter their local well-hidden comic book shop, because that is the one and only place you could purchase a comic book today. You can't pick one off the rack at a convenience store, you can't find 'em in the grocery store, or at a news stand. It's like a club. Or, maybe a cult, rather. :p

Anyway, yeah, I don't see the industry lasting much longer. It certainly won't manage to hang on for another seventy years.

[Josh S]

The sky is always falling, and yet here we are. The industy will outlive us all.

[Joe Acro]

I honestly don't see the industry lasting another twenty years. No one's managing to bring in new readers, and the medium as a whole can't even attempt to compare to television or video games. That, and comic books are more exclusive to its current fanbase than ever before. In order to randomly pick up an interesting looking comic book, one would need to randomly locate and feel the urge to enter their local well-hidden comic book shop, because that is the one and only place you could purchase a comic book today. You can't pick one off the rack at a convenience store, you can't find 'em in the grocery store, or at a news stand. It's like a club. Or, maybe a cult, rather. :p

Anyway, yeah, I don't see the industry lasting much longer. It certainly won't manage to hang on for another seventy years.
It seems you haven't been to some bookstores. I feel that some people would have better incentive to buy some comics if they knew what is going on underneath the cover!!! I'm sorry. I just have a very big issue with not being able to learn anything about the story without opening it up. Portrait shots don't catch the eye. Saying something like, "An Avenger dies in this issue" does.

[Jack Zodiac]

I know Borders and Barnes and Nobles carry trades, and some (occasionally) have a spinner rack, but again, those're specialty stores that sell books. I used to love being able to walk down to the corner store with five bucks to buy a soda, a candy bar, and a couple of comics.

Also, the talking covers are making a comeback! The last issue of Superman was a perfect example of one of his old Silver Age covers, as opposed to all of the standard misleading covers books use today. My favorite was the last issue of Supergirl, which showed her and Powergirl fighting, when the issue was actually about Supergirl saving her. :p

[MythicBrawn]

I don't think it will die so much as evolve. The companies are starting to utilize the internet as a way to get their stuff out there too. It used to be that comics were disposable since they were so cheap. That certainly isn't the case now. I think it's funny that I spend less on comics now and I have more money than I did as a teenager. Granted, there are more things out there to spend my disposable income on.

[Yoda]

No one's managing to bring in new readers.

I always see this claim, i have to say i think it's false. Can anyone actually state that as a fact? Just because they aren't pulling in kids doesnt mean they aren't pulling in new readers. I think there are a lot more new readers than people like to admit. Especially with the trades and bookstore markets. Monthly comics might not be around in twenty years, but i don't think comics will go anywhere.

[filthysize]

Comic book issues? Maybe, possibly, likely.

Graphic novels? Not bloody likely. GNs are more popular than ever now, thanks to Joe Hollywood and his crusade for the Holy Adaptation.


You know what I think? Webcomics. Learn it, embrace it, face it: it's the future.

[Shellhead]

In the early 70's, Marvel cancelled the X-Men comic because it was only selling 200,000 of each issue. Today, Marvel usually only cancels titles that sell below 20,000. In other words, the industry has apparently lost 90% of the fan base since the early 70's. By general business standards, losing 90% of the market is a very bad sign.

[clayholio]

No, I don't think comics are dying. I think the pamphlet format is receding, but the art form of comics is just fine. Graphic novels are the destination format, and that's as it should be. And webcomics are becoming more prevalent. It's just a shifting of format, nothing to worry about.

[Kid Omega]

I should just put this in my signature...

BONE sells in the millions.

Fun Home was on the NYT bestseller list.

etc

etc

[Roquefort Raider]

There will always be people eager to read comics. There will always be peole eager to create comics. There will always be people capable of marketing comics. So in one form or another, I don't see comics vanishing.

The current American comics market, though, with its inbred marketing system aimed at late teenage or young adult males, and featuring mostly power fantasies? Yeah, that I can see disappearing. Not that I want it to, because I like a good superhero comic as much as the next guy, but I can see how that market has been supplanted by computer games and other forms of entertainment.

I would expect future comics to be available in standard bookshops, to appeal to a wide range of customers, and not to be based on the ongoing adventures of characters who never change. I expect them to be actual graphic novels. After all, that system works quite well in Europe.

[Count Vertigo]

I know that documentary he's talking about. It's like 2 years old. So I think it's not valid for today's market. To feel "sad" is silly. Comics will be around for awhile. Indy companies come and go, that's life but at least the big 2 will still be around.

[Cephus]

Sales are pretty healthy right now. Don't know about twenty years from now but for the present time, the Big Two are OK.

Sales are healthy compared to what? The comic book industry has been in a downward sales spiral for decades. Just because they're selling more today than they were 5 years ago doesn't mean they're not doing worse than they were 20 years ago. Or 40 years ago. And considering some of the really moronic choices the Big Two have made lately, how long they'll be "OK" is questionable.

[Arawn]

The early 90s there was a massive upswing in the market, also sales have risen steadily over the past couple years. You really should check your facts.

[Jack Zodiac]

The early 90s there was a massive upswing in the market, also sales have risen steadily over the past couple years. You really should check your facts.

After the early Nineties, there was a major downswing in the market. Facts. Check. Blah blah blah.

[Ed Cunard]

I should just put this in my signature...

"But Aaallleeex, those don't count."

[Patient Boy]

Sales are healthy compared to what? The comic book industry has been in a downward sales spiral for decades. Just because they're selling more today than they were 5 years ago doesn't mean they're not doing worse than they were 20 years ago. Or 40 years ago. And considering some of the really moronic choices the Big Two have made lately, how long they'll be "OK" is questionable.

I think an opinion like this is dependent on the point of view that superheroes and by extension DC and Marvel make up the backbone of the industry, and to mix my metaphors that the single issue is the foundation of comics publishing.

I wish I had a similar anatomical reference for the single issue. Maybe it's the pancreas of the industry. I like saying pancreas. Visually it looks a little like pancakes. It's eight in the morning, I think I should go get breakfast soon.

Anyway, I think increasingly that's changing, and while the comics industry might be a different place in ten years time, I think that's to be expected and it's highly unlikely that there won't be any major comic book publishers.

[Jack Zodiac]

"But Aaallleeex, those don't count."

They count, but probably shouldn't represent the majority of the mainstream market. Namely Marvel and DC. I'll honestly say, though, that I didn't know single issues of Bone sold in the millions. :) That's incredible.

[Ontir]

Yes, it is. The age of the readers is rising, and there aren't nearly enough kids getting involved in it. Tha Manga/Anime market (Japanese & American) is growing, but in ways that leave the American comic industry outside its success.

[Count Vertigo]

Phooey on modern manga.

[Iangould]

In the early 70's, Marvel cancelled the X-Men comic because it was only selling 200,000 of each issue. Today, Marvel usually only cancels titles that sell below 20,000. In other words, the industry has apparently lost 90% of the fan base since the early 70's. By general business standards, losing 90% of the market is a very bad sign.


In 1970, Marvel was publishing around a dozen comics per month.

Now they publish over sixty.

Marvel's topselling book is currently selling close to 300,000 copies per month, were any of those dozen titles back in 1970 selling three million copies per month?

The direct market combined with real increases in cover prices and repritn books has made it profitable to keep books going with 20,000 copies rather than 200,000.

[Jeff Brady]

They count, but probably shouldn't represent the majority of the mainstream market. Namely Marvel and DC. I'll honestly say, though, that I didn't know single issues of Bone sold in the millions. :) That's incredible.

Not single issues, but trades once Scholastic snagged the reprint rights. Considering sales only, BONE is more mainstream that Marvel & DC.

[Iangould]

Sales are healthy compared to what? The comic book industry has been in a downward sales spiral for decades. Just because they're selling more today than they were 5 years ago doesn't mean they're not doing worse than they were 20 years ago. Or 40 years ago. And considering some of the really moronic choices the Big Two have made lately, how long they'll be "OK" is questionable.

I'm informed by people who are in a position to know that total sales of American comics in magazine form, in volume terms, has remained roughly constant since the mid 1970's with the exception of an upward blip in the early 90's.

Add in trade sales and allow for the increase in real prices and revenue is growing.

[jaguarshark]

Comics are always dying, depending who you listen to, and yet, here they are, still kicking.
A popular story-telling medium with as long a history as comics isn't going to just up and die; it'll be around much, much longer than any of us are. Unless someone discovers an immortality serum, comics will definitely outlive us all; and even if someone did discover an immortality serum, we could hang around buying comics and keeping the industry alive for eternity!
Yay comics!

[Iangould]

I was going to make a separate thread about this but I guess it fits here:

http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/spider_man_comics_hit_newspapers

One hundred twenty-two of News America Marketing's 1000-plus client base will apparently participate in a Spider-Man comic giveaway in the next several days, with an insert of the character's first appearance in Amazing Fantasy #15. These clients include the Chicago Sun-Times and the New York Post (ad above), which is a pretty good two in your 122. Marvel signed a deal with News America Marketing last Fall.


That's 122 US newspapers including the New York Post, Richmond Times-Dispatch; Dallas Daily News; and the main San Diego paper. (Those are the papers retailers on CBIA mentioned.)

This is the start of a year-long weekly promotion which will see tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, of Spiderman comics in the hands of the general public - and every one of them will, i'm told, carry an ad for the Comic Book Locator Service.

Oh and while I'm at it:

Graphic novel sales in comic stores picked up the pace in July, with 25% growth vs. the same month in 2005. Comic sales were up 18%, bringing over-all sales in the category to a 19% increase over the previous year.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/9146.html

Led by Marvel's Civil War #2 and a host of #1 issues comic sales for June managed a 2% gain over June 2005, just enough to offset a 4% decline in graphic novel sales and provide a 1% over-all gain for the month. Thanks to an extremely strong performance in May (see "May Comics Boffo") comics were up 17% for the quarter, more than enough to offset a 5% decline in graphic novel sales (no Sin City) and fashion a potent 13% gain for the quarter,the largest year-over-year quarterly gain since Diamond Comic Distributors began basing their reports on actual sales versus orders.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/8987.html

Year on year growth of over 10% compunding for several years straight and we STILL have people telling us comics are dying.

And that's all through Diamond whose business remains focused primarily on the superhero market.

Meanwhile we have two HUGE Christian publishers announcing ambitious plans for new graphic novels lines:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/9164.html
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/9108.html

Meanwhile Denys Cowan and Dwayne McDuffie are launching a new animation block at BET, with Vin Deisel on board as voice talent and co-producer on one show. Anyone think those shows won't end up as comics.

Oh and people who've seen it are saying that Zack Snyder's adaptation of Frank miller's 300 is astonishing good - meaning we can expect February 2007 to see a repeat of the sales frenzy that accompanied the release of Sin City.

Hopefully, that will have died down by the time Sin City II hits cinemas or I'm going to have to hire extra staff.

[jaguarshark]

I was going to make a separate thread about this but I guess it fits here:

http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/spider_man_comics_hit_newspapers

One hundred twenty-two of News America Marketing's 1000-plus client base will apparently participate in a Spider-Man comic giveaway in the next several days, with an insert of the character's first appearance in Amazing Fantasy #15. These clients include the Chicago Sun-Times and the New York Post (ad above), which is a pretty good two in your 122. Marvel signed a deal with News America Marketing last Fall.


That's 122 US newspapers including the New York Post, Richmond Times-Dispatch; Dallas Daily News; and the main San Diego paper. (Those are the papers retailers on CBIA mentioned.)

This is the start of a year-long weekly promotion which will see tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, of Spiderman comics in the hands of the general public - and every one of them will, i'm told, carry an ad for the Comic Book Locator Service.

Oh and while I'm at it:

Graphic novel sales in comic stores picked up the pace in July, with 25% growth vs. the same month in 2005. Comic sales were up 18%, bringing over-all sales in the category to a 19% increase over the previous year.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/9146.html

Led by Marvel's Civil War #2 and a host of #1 issues comic sales for June managed a 2% gain over June 2005, just enough to offset a 4% decline in graphic novel sales and provide a 1% over-all gain for the month. Thanks to an extremely strong performance in May (see "May Comics Boffo") comics were up 17% for the quarter, more than enough to offset a 5% decline in graphic novel sales (no Sin City) and fashion a potent 13% gain for the quarter,the largest year-over-year quarterly gain since Diamond Comic Distributors began basing their reports on actual sales versus orders.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/8987.html

Year on year growth of over 10% compunding for several years straight and we STILL have people telling us comics are dying.

And that's all through Diamond whose business remains focused primarily on the superhero market.

Meanwhile we have two HUGE Christian publishers announcing ambitious plans for new graphic novels lines:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/9164.html
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/9108.html

Meanwhile Denys Cowan and Dwayne McDuffie are launching a new animation block at BET, with Vin Deisel on board as voice talent and co-producer on one show. Anyone think those shows won't end up as comics.

Oh and people who've seen it are saying that Zack Snyder's adaptation of Frank miller's 300 is astonishing good - meaning we can expect February 2007 to see a repeat of the sales frenzy that accompanied the release of Sin City.

Hopefully, that will have died down by the time Sin City II hits cinemas or I'm going to have to hire extra staff.
From my point of view, hopefully you or Comics Etc do have to hire new staff, because working at a comic shop would be rocksome.

Seriously, that promotion with the newspapers is brilliant, and 300 is one of those comics that was always destined to make a great film. I'm not so sure about the rumours of Synder on 'Watchmen', but we'll see. This is definitely a golden age for comics fans, though.

[caats19]

i think comic books are doing fine. i'm curious how old you guys/girls are? i'm 19. when i was younger my older brothers bought some comics(mostly marvel), but they had a few old justice league of america and the superman death thing. and i read those and archie comics for awhile, till i guess i was like 14 and got a justice league subscription. what we COULD do is breed our kids into likeing comics when they're young...and keep it going!! muahahahahaha. and also, i hate the webcomics thing. so gay.

[Evan Lanctot]

With DC so obviously trying to recapture the Silver Age zeitgeist, the powers that be at that company know they are getting very few new readers, and so are trying to target their books at their known audience....the now middle-aged baby boomers that are still reading their comics.

As for Marvel, yes they are trying to be "modern" with mixed success, in my opinion. At least they are trying to go forward and not backwards, but whether this has resulted in quality books, again, a mixed bag.

I think the industry will survive....remember, not everyone has a computer and not everyone will ever have one. It will be like Rock & Roll music today, a niche in an entertainment industry that has so much more to offer people then it did thirty years ago.

[Nikita]

I just watched this thing on the history channel about comic books and well...it doesn't really make me feel good about the future of the medium. The whole vibe was"sales are the lowest they have ever been and were just not getting the new readers to sustain the medium". Is this true? I mean are comics really gonna disappear forever?
I'm in baltimore maryland and from here it looks like that will soon be the case? any thoughts?


A lot of the people I see at the comic convetions bring their kids with them...the love of comics is passed on through generations which helps keep them going.

[Headhunter]

The industry is doing great: waves of quality books are coming out, positive mainstream attention continues to increase, and a wider range of retailers are carrying the product. Marvel and DC are also getting some pretty good profits from their movie, television and video game properties which speaks really well to their financial sustainability.

If anything, I anticipate a drastic reduction in the number of specialized comic stores in the next decade. Between the increasing shift to the trade paperback format and the upswing of Internet/big bookstore chains carrying the product, local stores are going to be squeezed really hard. If the locals can't compete on price and the flow of monthly issue business drops, then there will be a pretty severe shrinkage of the direct market.

The quality stores with engaging, interesting and honest staff will continue to survive due to customer loyalty but I can't see the less than stellar ones surviving.

[cactusmaac]

I should just put this in my signature...

BONE sells in the millions.

Fun Home was on the NYT bestseller list.

etc

etc

When a thread like this comes along, I assume the OP is talking about the Big Two. Yes, there's plenty of high-quality, successful work outside of it but that's not what he\she seems to be concerned with.

[Kid Omega]

When a thread like this comes along, I assume the OP is talking about the Big Two. Yes, there's plenty of high-quality, successful work outside of it but that's not what he\she seems to be concerned with.

I assume he's talking about the Comics Industry, as that os what's in the thread title. And that's a far wider berth than just Marvel and DC. It needs to be said again and again and again, I guess.

[Iangould]

When a thread like this comes along, I assume the OP is talking about the Big Two. Yes, there's plenty of high-quality, successful work outside of it but that's not what he\she seems to be concerned with.

But the Big Two are also doing great - Marvel's publishing revenue is up strongly and while we don't have comparable numbers for DC we know their market share is up strongly in a market which is itself growing rapidly.

[Tadhg Adams]

I assume he's talking about the Comics Industry, as that os what's in the thread title. And that's a far wider berth than just Marvel and DC. It needs to be said again and again and again, I guess.

I generally read "Direct Market" whenever I see someone say "Comics Industry." And even then, I don't think the Direct Market is dying or that it will die in the future, though I do think that it will become a smaller part of the totality of the Comics industry.

[Kid Omega]

Does anyone else find it amusing that if you come to a place with a generic name like "Comic Book Resources", with forums for most everything out there, we should still assume that anytime anyone says "comic books" they just mean one genre from two publishers?

It's like going to Rock Music Forums, and everyone assuming everyone's talking about Ska

[Tadhg Adams]

The Direct Market is still fairly insular, so it never surprises me whenever anyone treats it like the entire Comic Book Industry.

[Kid Omega]

The Direct Market is still fairly insular, so it never surprises me whenever anyone treats it like the entire Comic Book Industry.

I'll surprise you...

WITH A FURRY PAW IN YOUR PANTS!

I'M A FURRY NOW AND IT FEELS GREAT!

[Erebus]

Yes, it is. The age of the readers is rising, and there aren't nearly enough kids getting involved in it. Tha Manga/Anime market (Japanese & American) is growing, but in ways that leave the American comic industry outside its success.
I can't confirm this, but I heard in every country in the world exept Japan, and maybe America, Western comics outsell manga.

[Kid Omega]

I can't confirm this, but I heard in every country in the world exept Japan, and maybe America, Western comics outsell manga.

Manga still doesn't outsell western comics here.

The best-selling manga titles do REALLY REALLY well, but on the whole, manga sells at about half the numbers of western books, last numbers i saw.

[Brandon Hanvey]

The industry isn't dying. It is just evolving as it always does. And it may be changing into something that some people are not comfortable with.

Does anyone else find it amusing that if you come to a place with a generic name like "Comic Book Resources", with forums for most everything out there, we should still assume that anytime anyone says "comic books" they just mean one genre from two publishers?

I cry myself to sleep every night thinking that.

[filthysize]

I can't confirm this, but I heard in every country in the world exept Japan, and maybe America, Western comics outsell manga.

I'd believe it if you meant except Asia. Otherwise then it's just simply not true.

[Ed Cunard]

Does anyone else find it amusing that if you come to a place with a generic name like "Comic Book Resources", with forums for most everything out there, we should still assume that anytime anyone says "comic books" they just mean one genre from two publishers?

"I'm shocked, shocked to find that there are comics other than Marvel and DC."*

I got into trouble once (well, relatively speaking--just some "oh, you're so elitist and mean and nasty" stuff) for pointing out that it's a little disingenuous to say one is a fan of comic books if the only comics one reads are superhero comics--really, it just makes that person a fan of superheroes who comes to the medium because of the prevalence of said genre in it.

*Apologies to Claude Rains.

[Erebus]

I'd believe it if you meant except Asia. Otherwise then it's just simply not true.
Wait, you mean manga outsells comics in Asia? Or manga is more popular in an international level?

[Iangould]

Wait, you mean manga outsells comics in Asia? Or manga is more popular in an international level?

I can't point to definitive figures but everything I've heard says that manga is far mroe popular than US comcis in Malaysia; the Phillipines and most of the rest of South East and East Asia.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'd personally love to see DC/Marvel use the movies to lure fans better. I mean my god , why not use these Hollywood stars to do a small 2 minute trailer before the movie airs to promote the comics ? They can do it and make it work.

[Cei-U!]

Times change, technologies change, tastes change. Film lives on as a medium but silent movies do not. Radio lives on as a medium but radio drama does not. Theatre lives on as a medium but vaudeville does not. Comics will live on as a medium but the 32-page monthly periodical may not.

Cei-U!
I summon the evolution!

[Alan2099]

I'd personally love to see DC/Marvel use the movies to lure fans better. I mean my god , why not use these Hollywood stars to do a small 2 minute trailer before the movie airs to promote the comics ? They can do it and make it work.
People talk about how movie sales will attract new readers, but it never really does.

Comics are aimed at a very exclusive audiance these days and are convuluted, inaccessible, overpriced and not even aimed aimed at anything resembling the mass market.

[moebius]

I would say that between the cost of of the books and alternate forms of entertainment, periodical comics as a medium are not going to be around in 10, 20 years. The wave of the future is $1 or $1.50 periodical e-comics, combined with TPB every 4-6 months.

Unfortuantely, this won't be a good thing for most FLCS', but I'm not sure if that's a bad thing.

[P-Man]

"I'm shocked, shocked to find that there are comics other than Marvel and DC."*

I got into trouble once (well, relatively speaking--just some "oh, you're so elitist and mean and nasty" stuff) for pointing out that it's a little disingenuous to say one is a fan of comic books if the only comics one reads are superhero comics--really, it just makes that person a fan of superheroes who comes to the medium because of the prevalence of said genre in it.

*Apologies to Claude Rains.

It's only disengenuous if you ONLY read superheroes. If someone is willing to read non-super hero stuff, even if they rarely do, they can still say "I like comic books." I mean, is it desengenous of me to say "I like music." even though 90% of my CD collection is heavy metal?

[Ed Cunard]

It's only disengenuous if you ONLY read superheroes. If someone is willing to read non-super hero stuff, even if they rarely do, they can still say "I like comic books." I mean, is it desengenous of me to say "I like music." even though 90% of my CD collection is heavy metal?

Which is why I specifically said "if the only comics one reads are superhero comics" in the quoted post.

[cactusmaac]

Does anyone else find it amusing that if you come to a place with a generic name like "Comic Book Resources", with forums for most everything out there, we should still assume that anytime anyone says "comic books" they just mean one genre from two publishers?

It's like going to Rock Music Forums, and everyone assuming everyone's talking about Ska

It's what it means to the average Anglophone. Ask them to name a comic book and they'll say something like Spider-Man or Batman. There will be more saying Naruto or Fruits Basket than there would have been ten years ago, but not the majority.


But the Big Two are also doing great - Marvel's publishing revenue is up strongly and while we don't have comparable numbers for DC we know their market share is up strongly in a market which is itself growing rapidly.

Err yes I know, I said as much in the first reply to the thread.

[Kid Omega]

It's what it means to the average Anglophone. Ask them to name a comic book and they'll say something like Spider-Man or Batman. There will be more saying Naruto or Fruits Basket than there would have been ten years ago, but not the majority.


I'm not convinced that that's the case.

I think you're just as likely to get Archie, Acme Novelty Library, or Dilbert as an answer, depending on who you ask.

[Iangould]

People talk about how movie sales will attract new readers, but it never really does.

Comics are aimed at a very exclusive audiance these days and are convuluted, inaccessible, overpriced and not even aimed aimed at anything resembling the mass market.

I'll assume you aren't a comics retailer - trust me, Sin City and the Serenity trade both brought in a huge number of new readers.

Any retailer worth their salt, made a point of pushing Astonishing X-Men and Fray to the people buying Serenity and Miller's Batman books to the people buying Sin City. (Then when they come back again you sell them Dark victory, Long Halloween and Killing Joke. Killing joke then leads on to Watchmen which leads on to...).

Your second paragrpah makes it apparently that, once again, there's a confusion between "comics" and "superhero comics".

[Kid Omega]

I'll assume you aren't a comics retailer - trust me, Sin City and the Serenity trade both brought in a huge number of new readers.



Oh SERENITY... would that every movie tie-in flew with such velocity!

Hellboy also benefitted from the movie quite well, as did Ghost World, and many others I am blanking on.

I suspect 300 to do well come march.

[Iangould]

V for Vendetta was huge.

A History of Violence got a modest bump.

About the only movies that don't seem to boost sales of the comics are the superhero ones.

[Jack Zodiac]

Yeah, y'know, as much as I disliked some of the movie, "V for Vendetta" was probably a bigger draw for most people than "Sin City" was. "A History of Violence," though, most people don't even know as a graphic novel. Same goes for "Road to Perdition."

[Kid Omega]

V for Vendetta was huge.

A History of Violence got a modest bump.



There you go- both of those were HUGE sellers, for us, and as far as I can tell, for every other store in the world with the wherewithal to keep them in stock.

[jaguarshark]

I suspect the reason your 'Sin City' and 'Serenity' style books get a big bump from the movies, but superheroes don't, is because everybody already knows about the superheroes and have well and truly decided if they're interested in reading about them. I mean, you're not gonna have a big rush of people saying, "Batman? Why, what is this intriguing concept?"

So when a 'V For Vendetta' or a 'History of Violence' come out, it has a bigger impact because some people might not have been aware that those sorts of comics existed- and that those stories were possible to tell in comics- in the first place.

If you're really, genuinely worried that the industry is dying, then just try to get some of your non-comics reading friends hooked. I mean, my girlfriend, who had never read a comic in her life before we met, is now a bigger fan of 'Nextwave' than me, and my best friend- never a comics reader either- has been converted into a Grant Morrison worshipper. I'm so proud of them!

[Joe Acro]

I'm not convinced that that's the case.

I think you're just as likely to get Archie, Acme Novelty Library, or Dilbert as an answer, depending on who you ask.Wait, Dilbert's a comic book character?

[Iangould]

Going by the sales of his collections, he's probably the most popular comic book character in the US.

Yeah, yeah he got his start as a newspaper strip - Action #1's Superman story was repasted from the daily Superman strip Seigel and Shuster hadn't been able to sell to a syndicate.

[BigBoss]

I think the industry wont die I just think they wont be ever as popular as they use too be.

[filthysize]

About the only movies that don't seem to boost sales of the comics are the superhero ones.

Yeah. Although that's just because people wouldn't know where the hell to start.

I belong to a movie discussion board (several actually). I can't tell you how many times people ask me (the resident comic geek) about certain graphic novels when the adaptation is being discussed. And yes, they do end up buying the book. I've already had posters telling me that they bought 300 after watching the trailer.

[cactusmaac]

I'm not convinced that that's the case.

I think you're just as likely to get Archie, Acme Novelty Library, or Dilbert as an answer, depending on who you ask.

Well, I grew up reading Archie - and Asterix and Tintin - rather than superhero stuff but I'd have probably said Superman\Spidey if asked the question at age 10.

[cactusmaac]

I'll assume you aren't a comics retailer - trust me, Sin City and the Serenity trade both brought in a huge number of new readers.

Any retailer worth their salt, made a point of pushing Astonishing X-Men and Fray to the people buying Serenity and Miller's Batman books to the people buying Sin City. (Then when they come back again you sell them Dark victory, Long Halloween and Killing Joke. Killing joke then leads on to Watchmen which leads on to...).

Your second paragrpah makes it apparently that, once again, there's a confusion between "comics" and "superhero comics".

Was there much of a bump on the Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate Spidey, Batman: Year One and Long Halloween trades when the movies came out?

[Iangould]

Was there much of a bump on the Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate Spidey, Batman: Year One and Long Halloween trades when the movies came out?

Virtually none.

I think we sold a total of about two copies of the Superman Returns adaptation and the sales on the new omnibus Superman trades could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

[Kid Omega]

Virtually none.

I think we sold a total of about two copies of the Superman Returns adaptation and the sales on the new omnibus Superman trades could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Same here.

Hellblazer trades had a bump... Elektra did not. It's a weird phenomena.

[king mob]

I just watched this thing on the history channel about comic books and well...it doesn't really make me feel good about the future of the medium. The whole vibe was"sales are the lowest they have ever been and were just not getting the new readers to sustain the medium". Is this true? I mean are comics really gonna disappear forever?
I'm in baltimore maryland and from here it looks like that will soon be the case? any thoughts?

No, comics won't vanish forever. In fact the comic book medium couldn't be healthier; superhero comics on the other hand are having issues as mentioned in this thread.

There is a good article here (http://www.offthetelly.co.uk/childrens/doctorwho/fans.htm) about Doctor Who 'fans' which has a relevance to comics. The line "No more viewers. Fans. And that litany of trivia and facts is the antithesis of fun and accessibility. Doctor Who itself became a closed shop." is especially relevant to how superhero comics are now.

So comics are fine, we just have try to realise there's more to the medium than our little ghetto.

[Tadhg Adams]

No, comics won't vanish forever. In fact the comic book medium couldn't be healthier; superhero comics on the other hand are having issues as mentioned in this thread.

There is a good article here (http://www.offthetelly.co.uk/childrens/doctorwho/fans.htm) about Doctor Who 'fans' which has a relevance to comics. The line "No more viewers. Fans. And that litany of trivia and facts is the antithesis of fun and accessibility. Doctor Who itself became a closed shop." is especially relevant to how superhero comics are now.

So comics are fine, we just have try to realise there's more to the medium than our little ghetto.

So we need to get Davies to come in and save Superhero comics?

[Gingold]

Wait, Dilbert's a comic book character?

There are books of comics with Dilbert in them. If that's not the definition, I'm not sure what is.

[dingo]

There are books of comics with Dilbert in them. If that's not the definition, I'm not sure what is.
Not that there is a huge difference, but wouldn't it be more accurate to call him a comic strip character.

[Kid Omega]

Not that there is a huge difference, but wouldn't it be more accurate to call him a comic strip character.

It might be more accurate, but it wouldn't change the thrust of the point.

[Black Atom]

I'm not sure it IS the same. Having a a Dilbert Day calendar in your office is quite different from having a Batman Day calendar in your office. Similar medium, completely different market.

[Tadhg Adams]

I'm not sure it IS the same. Having a a Dilbert Day calendar in your office is quite different from having a Batman Day calendar in your office. Similar medium, completely different market.

Having a Buffy Calendar is quite different from having a Sponge Bob calendar but they're both still part of the television industry.

[Kid Omega]

I'm not sure it IS the same. Having a a Dilbert Day calendar in your office is quite different from having a Batman Day calendar in your office. Similar medium, completely different market.

It's the same medium.

[Black Atom]

Having a Buffy Calendar is quite different from having a Sponge Bob calendar but they're both still part of the television industry.

The Comicbook Industry, which is the subject of this thread, is quite different from the TV industry and many of the others people are making reference to here, because it is dominated so much by one specific genre that it may as well be synonymous with it. You cannot gauge the popularity or longevity of The Comicbook Industry by the performance of Dilbert because the two are completely dissimilar. I'm sure there will be clever cartoons in newspapers about family life or work long after The Comicbook Industry (which is mainly guys jumping around in tights punching shit, no matter how much you want to kid yourself) is dead and buried.

If the thread was "Is sequential art dead" then we'd have grounds to lump them. Otherwise, I see one having no bearing on the other.

[Tadhg Adams]

The Comicbook Industry, which is the subject of this thread, is quite different from the TV industry and many of the others people are making reference to here, because it is dominated so much by one specific genre that it may as well be synonymous with it. You cannot gauge the popularity or longevity of The Comicbook Industry by the performance of Dilbert because the two are completely dissimilar. I'm sure there will be clever cartoons in newspapers about family life or work long after The Comicbook Industry (which is mainly guys jumping around in tights punching shit, no matter how much you want to kid yourself) is dead and buried.

If the thread was "Is sequential art dead" then we'd have grounds to lump them. Otherwise, I see one having no bearing on the other.


No The Direct Market is dominated by one specific genre. The Direct Market != The Comic book Industry which is what many people have tried to point out.

[Slam_Bradley]

The Comicbook Industry, which is the subject of this thread, is quite different from the TV industry and many of the others people are making reference to here, because it is dominated so much by one specific genre that it may as well be synonymous with it.


And this is where you are absolutely wrong. The Comicbook Industry is clearly not dominated by one specific genre. Alex's example of Bone points that out. The fact that the local Barnes & Noble has three times as much Manga as it does all other comics trades combined is another example. The sooner everyone moves beyond their super-hero myopia, the better.

[Ed Cunard]

The Comicbook Industry, which is the subject of this thread, is quite different from the TV industry and many of the others people are making reference to here, because it is dominated so much by one specific genre that it may as well be synonymous with it. You cannot gauge the popularity or longevity of The Comicbook Industry by the performance of Dilbert because the two are completely dissimilar. I'm sure there will be clever cartoons in newspapers about family life or work long after The Comicbook Industry (which is mainly guys jumping around in tights punching shit, no matter how much you want to kid yourself) is dead and buried.

If the thread was "Is sequential art dead" then we'd have grounds to lump them. Otherwise, I see one having no bearing on the other.

No, you're wrong. You're so wrong that wrong doesn't quite describe it. The direct market, sure, the scales tip towards the superhero genre. However, even if you discount comic strips and collections--and even discounting manga, too, even though I wouldn't--you still have comic books like Love & Rockets, Optic Nerve, Action Philosophers, Mouse Guard, Conan, True Story, Swear To God--the list is really long, but I think the point has been made. Just because someone isn't aware of the diversity of the medium doesn't mean the medium isn't diverse--I mean, if I wasn't aware of there being over a hundred breeds of dogs recognized by the AKC, that wouldn't make all dogs German Shepards.

And that's just talking regular, periodical floppy comics sold in the direct market, not giant best-seller-list making graphic novels like Fun Home.

[Tadhg Adams]

No, you're wrong. You're so wrong that wrong doesn't quite describe it. The direct market, sure, the scales tip towards the superhero genre. However, even if you discount comic strips and collections--and even discounting manga, too, even though I wouldn't--you still have comic books like Love & Rockets, Optic Nerve, Action Philosophers, Mouse Guard, Conan, True Story, Swear To God--the list is really long, but I think the point has been made. Just because someone isn't aware of the diversity of the medium doesn't mean the medium isn't diverse--I mean, if I wasn't aware of there being over a hundred breeds of dogs recognized by the AKC, that wouldn't make all dogs German Shepards.

And that's just talking regular, periodical floppy comics, not giant best-seller-list making graphic novels like Fun Home.

I win in our continued battle of succinctness.

And It's Alsatian.

[Ed Cunard]

I win in our continued battle of succintness.

I win for snide, though. Slam wins the overall.

And It's Alsatian.

I learn something new every day.

[Slam_Bradley]

No, you're wrong. You're so wrong that wrong doesn't quite describe it. The direct market, sure, the scales tip towards the superhero genre. However, even if you discount comic strips and collections--and even discounting manga, too, even though I wouldn't--you still have comic books like Love & Rockets, Optic Nerve, Action Philosophers, Mouse Guard, Conan, True Story, Swear To God--the list is really long, but I think the point has been made. Just because someone isn't aware of the diversity of the medium doesn't mean the medium isn't diverse--I mean, if I wasn't aware of there being over a hundred breeds of dogs recognized by the AKC, that wouldn't make all dogs German Shepards.

And that's just talking regular, periodical floppy comics sold in the direct market, not giant best-seller-list making graphic novels like Fun Home.


Not to disagree with you, Ed, because I don't, but I cannot see how anyone can discount manga. They're comic books. Ok...Japanese comic books, but they's still comic books. I can see an argument that comic stip collections shouldn't be considered, but Manga meets any reasonable definition of comic books.

None of this should be construed to mean that I read manga. I just don't get it. But it's still comic books.

[Black Atom]

And this is where you are absolutely wrong. The Comicbook Industry is clearly not dominated by one specific genre. Alex's example of Bone points that out. The fact that the local Barnes & Noble has three times as much Manga as it does all other comics trades combined is another example. The sooner everyone moves beyond their super-hero myopia, the better.

Manga is manga.

[Slam_Bradley]

Manga is manga.


How is manga not comic books?

[Black Atom]

No, you're wrong. You're so wrong that wrong doesn't quite describe it. The direct market, sure, the scales tip towards the superhero genre. However, even if you discount comic strips and collections--and even discounting manga, too, even though I wouldn't--you still have comic books like Love & Rockets, Optic Nerve, Action Philosophers, Mouse Guard, Conan, True Story, Swear To God--the list is really long, but I think the point has been made. Just because someone isn't aware of the diversity of the medium doesn't mean the medium isn't diverse--I mean, if I wasn't aware of there being over a hundred breeds of dogs recognized by the AKC, that wouldn't make all dogs German Shepards.

And that's just talking regular, periodical floppy comics sold in the direct market, not giant best-seller-list making graphic novels like Fun Home.

But who buys that shit?

[Black Atom]

How is manga not comic books?

At the very least, it's a different delivery of the way we have traditionally interpreted the medium. The comic book industry, as we Americans know it, is in danger of dying, I believe.

[Tadhg Adams]

At the very least, it's a different delivery of the way we have traditionally interpreted the medium. The comic book industry, as we Americans know it, is in danger of dying, I believe.

Well it's just good that your belief is entirely uninformed and quite wrong then.

[Slam_Bradley]

At the very least, it's a different delivery of the way we have traditionally interpreted the medium. The comic book industry, as we Americans know it, is in danger of dying, I believe.


But that's a whole different issue. If the statement is...The traditional American 32 page comic pamphlet is dying...I might agree.

But the issue is Comic Book Industry. That is a whole different beast.

[Black Atom]

Well it's just good that your belief is entirely uninformed and quite wrong then.

What are you basing the accusation of my being uninformed on? Did you just think it would sound smart to say that?

[Ed Cunard]

Not to disagree with you, Ed, because I don't, but I cannot see how anyone can discount manga. They're comic books. Ok...Japanese comic books, but they's still comic books. I can see an argument that comic stip collections shouldn't be considered, but Manga meets any reasonable definition of comic books.

Just anticipating (and correctly) the reaction to "manga=comics," and leaving it off.

But who buys that shit?

Me, for one. Tadhg, for two. Really, there are more of us than you might imagine, but that doesn't matter--the question is whether or not things that are not superhero comics are still comics.

At the very least, it's a different delivery of the way we have traditionally interpreted the medium. The comic book industry, as we Americans know it, is in danger of dying, I believe.

As American superhero fans know it, maybe. And I still wouldn't even proscribe to that--maybe the monthly format will take a backseat to collections and original graphic novels, maybe bookstores will be the go-to point rather than local comics shops, but the industry? It'll adapt, it'll change (in delivery or content)--that's not the same thing as dying.

[Tadhg Adams]

What are you basing the accusation of my being uninformed on? Did you just think it would sound smart to say that?

Well your continued taking of The Direct Market to mean the totality of the Comic Industry was my first clue. The second is the fact that you either haven't paid attention to or have ignored that there has been some growth within the direct market and considerable growth outside of it; in and outside of the superhero genre.

[Kid Omega]

But who buys that shit?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

whew!

That was funny!

Seriously, look up some sales data.

[Michael P]

As American superhero fans know it, maybe. And I still wouldn't even proscribe to that--maybe the monthly format will take a backseat to collections and original graphic novels, maybe bookstores will be the go-to point rather than local comics shops, but the industry? It'll adapt, it'll change (in delivery or content)--that's not the same thing as dying.
As an aside to this, I don't even think the Big Two will die. They may also change, but they'll still be around.

Actually, if history is any indicator, they'll probably be the precipitors of the next big change.

[Black Atom]

Me, for one. Tadhg, for two. Really, there are more of us than you might imagine, but that doesn't matter--the question is whether or not things that are not superhero comics are still comics.

I'm not saying they're not comics and I'm certainly not trying to impune your tastes. I'm talking about market share. Like it or not,the bread and butter of the American Comicbook Industry is superhero stuff. If the big two stopped
publishing today, you could pretty much say the industry is dead. You can make a case for whatever indy lesbian romance monthly you want, but it's not going to support any local shops all by itself.

Manga's another variable, but there seems to be so little crossover that, like the Dilbert example, I'm tempted to put them in different catagories.


As American superhero fans know it, maybe. And I still wouldn't even proscribe to that--maybe the monthly format will take a backseat to collections and original graphic novels, maybe bookstores will be the go-to point rather than local comics shops, but the industry? It'll adapt, it'll change
(in delivery or content)--that's not the same thing as dying.

I can concede that. I just don't see local shops lasting too long, unless they start cross-selling into more mainstream media or, as you said, evolving into something else entirely.

[Tadhg Adams]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

whew!

That was funny!

Seriously, look up some sales data.

But Aaallleeex, they arn't in Diamond's charts!

[Black Atom]

Hey, if I'm wrong and the majority of American comics purchased every month are not on the direct market list, then I'm willing to admit it.

[Joe Rice]

Hey, if I'm wrong and the majority of American comics purchased every month are not on the direct market list, then I'm willing to admit it.

Persepolis, Jimmy Corrigan, and Bone outsell pretty much any superhero comic by buttloads (technical term). They don't show up on the Diamond lists, but those lists don't mean shit anyway.

[Black Atom]

But Aaallleeex, they arn't in Diamond's charts!

You do realize that those comics are called "underground" or "non-mainstream" because they don't dominate the market, right?

[Slam_Bradley]

As an aside to this, I don't even think the Big Two will die. They may also change, but they'll still be around.



They're clearly not going to die. Not when they have properties that can be exploited in other media. But let's be realistic and recognize that Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and the rest are much more valuable as fodder for films, television, and merchandising than they are as monthly comic books.

[Joe Rice]

You do realize that those comics are called "underground" or "non-mainstream" because they don't dominate the market, right?

They don't dominate the DIRECT market.

That's not all of comics. Archie doesn't dominate the direct market but they sell HUGE amounts through other distributers. Same with the Bone or Persepolis.

It's to the point now that "superheroes" are less and less "the mainstream." They're a pocket genre.

[Michael P]

You do realize that those comics are called "underground" or "non-mainstream" because they don't dominate the market, right?
Conan is underground?

[Kid Omega]

You do realize that those comics are called "underground" or "non-mainstream" because they don't dominate the market, right?

You do realize that they're only called "non-mainstream" by superhero fans that don't have any idea what's going on in the market beyond their blinders, right?

[Ed Cunard]

Hey, if I'm wrong and the majority of American comics purchased every month are not on the direct market list, then I'm willing to admit it.

That's not what you were saying before at all. You said Dilbert didn't count because it's not the same thing as American superhero comics. You said manga didn't count because it wasn't American comics. So, fine--if that's how you want it. You also said that the American comic book industry would be dead if not for American superhero comics, and that still wouldn't be true--there'd still be comics with an eye on the bookstore market (I mean, Harper Collins, Random House, Houghton Mifflin and other "real" publishers now have graphic novel lines because graphic novels are considered a growth industry in publishing).

The point is, it wouldn't necessarily die. I'm with Pullmann in that I don't think Marvel and DC will ever go away but, if they did, the comics industry? It'd look different, but it'd still be here. It would just be books you're unfamiliar with/uninterested in/unwilling to call comics for whatever reason. That last one is the one that got me to post, and the one I'm still trying to understand--I mean, I have no interest in anything published by, say, Avatar or Alias, but I'm not going to say they aren't comics.

[Tadhg Adams]

Conan is underground?

Fun home is totally Underground Comix, yo!

[Slam_Bradley]

Conan is underground?


Well he does chase a lot of slimy monsters through caves and dungeons.

[Black Atom]

You do realize that they're only called "non-mainstream" by superhero fans that don't have any idea what's going on in the market beyond their blinders, right?

I find it's usually it's the readers that pride themselves on reading "underground" comics that call them that, actually.

[Tadhg Adams]

Persepolis, Jimmy Corrigan, and Bone outsell pretty much any superhero comic by buttloads (technical term). They don't show up on the Diamond lists, but those lists don't mean shit anyway.

An aside, the IB English program here is going to be teaching Persepolis to the kids. And I think I convinced the Social Studies dept to look into Joe Sacco.

[Ed Cunard]

You do realize that those comics are called "underground" or "non-mainstream" because they don't dominate the market, right?

Totally missing Tadhg's point--they don't dominate the superhero-dominated nerdhaven of the direct market. Like Joe says, Archie books make a ton of bank, with little support from the majority of direct market comics shops.

Persepolis, Jimmy Corrigan, and Bone outsell pretty much any superhero comic by buttloads (technical term).

And are generally sold as one-copy-to-one-reader (aside from library sales), rather than one guy buying three-to-five copies for whatever reason people buy three-to-five copies of one book anymore.

Conan is underground?

He doesn't wear capes or tights.

[Michael P]

I find it's usually it's the readers that pride themselves on reading "underground" comics that call them that, actually.
Can I just point out that no one uses "underground" to refer to independent comics anymore?

If anything now is "underground," it's minicomics.

[Tadhg Adams]

I find it's usually it's the readers that pride themselves on reading "underground" comics that call them that, actually.

I honestly can't think of anyone using the term "Underground" except in reference to the Underground Comix movement of the sixties and seventies.

[Slam_Bradley]

I find it's usually it's the readers that pride themselves on reading "underground" comics that call them that, actually.


Do you really find a lot of people using the term "underground?" Because it's a pretty anachronistic term. It is generally applied to self-published books from the 60s and 70s. The term independent has been used almost exclusively since the rise of the direct market and the demise of the comics code in the 80s.

[Ed Cunard]

I find it's usually it's the readers that pride themselves on reading "underground" comics that call them that, actually.

Not all non-superhero books are considered underground, either. As Michael points out, that term is it's whole separate animal.

And, hell, most of us poncy elitists tend to posit that non-superhero comics are actually more mainstream in that they're targeted to wider audiences than most superhero comics.

[Michael P]

And are generally sold as one-copy-to-one-reader (aside from library sales), rather than one guy buying three-to-five copies for whatever reason people buy three-to-five copies of one book anymore.

Another pointless aside: Last month, I saw some guy buy nine copies of the first issue of Brubaker's Uncanny X-Men. When I commented (I believe my exact words were "Jesus Christ,") he said "For friends."

I guess he meant his friends E. Bay and C. Gea See.

[Tadhg Adams]

Do you really find a lot of people using the term "underground?" Because it's a pretty anachronistic term. It is generally applied to self-published books from the 60s and 70s. The term independent has been used almost exclusively since the rise of the direct market and the demise of the comics code in the 80s.

I bet Cunard still uses it. He's *that* snobby.

[Slam_Bradley]

I bet Cunard still uses it. He's *that* snobby.

Cunard is the exception that proves all rules.


And there's a lot of repeating going on...who's keeping track of the Cokes?

[Black Atom]

That's not what you were saying before at all. You said Dilbert didn't count because it's not the same thing as American superhero comics. You said manga didn't count because it wasn't American comics. So, fine--if that's how you want it. You also said that the American comic book industry would be dead if not for American superhero comics, and that still wouldn't be true--there'd still be comics with an eye on the bookstore market (I mean, Harper Collins, Random House, Houghton Mifflin and other "real" publishers now have graphic novel lines because graphic novels are considered a growth industry in publishing).

The point is, it wouldn't necessarily die. I'm with Pullmann in that I don't think Marvel and DC will ever go away but, if they did, the comics industry? It'd look different, but it'd still be here. It would just be books you're unfamiliar with/uninterested in/unwilling to call comics for whatever reason. That last one is the one that got me to post, and the one I'm still trying to understand--I mean, I have no interest in anything published by, say, Avatar or Alias, but I'm not going to say they aren't comics.

When I think "comic book industry", I think of 22-page monthlies, the lifeblood of comic retailers. It's distribution and delivery method is unique and specific to that medium. That's the infrastructure of the "comicbook" industry isn't just selling books--it's about specialized shops getting those books to people. This is what I forsee disappearing.

Dilbert and some of the other books mentioned, have garnered a crossover success indepedent of support from the direct market or local shops and I generally consider them to be simply "books". A niche genre of books, yes, but books (or graphic novels) nontheless, right down to the fact they're sold in bookstores and are not specialized shops. I don't have some prejudice against these books, I was only separating them for that reason.

[Ed Cunard]

I bet Cunard still uses it. He's *that* snobby.

I'm so snobby that I only use the term correctly.

When I think "comic book industry", I think of 22-page monthlies, the lifeblood of comic retailers. It's distribution and delivery method is unique and specific to that medium. That's the infrastructure of the "comicbook" industry isn't just selling books--it's about specialized shops getting those books to people. This is what I forsee disappearing.

Ask Kid Omega where most of his rather successful comic book store's sales--and profits--come from. That's the thing, though--you want the narrowest possible definition of "the comic book industry." Again, if it's not a German Shep--er, Alsatian, it's not a dog.

Dilbert and some of the other books mentioned, have garnered a crossover success indepedent of support from the direct market or local shops and I generally consider them to be simply "books". A niche genre of books, yes, but books (or graphic novels) nontheless, right down to the fact they're sold in bookstores and are not specialized shops. I don't have some prejudice against these books, I was only separating them for that reason.

But it's still the same medium, if not the same method of delivery and/or format.

[Tadhg Adams]

When I think "comic book industry", I think of 22-page monthlies, the lifeblood of comic retailers. It's distribution and delivery method is unique and specific to that medium. That's the infrastructure of the "comicbook" industry isn't just selling books--it's about specialized shops getting those books to people. This is what I forsee disappearing.


This goes back to the first point, The Direct Market is not the totality of the Comic Book Industry.

[Black Atom]

Ask Kid Omega where most of his rather successful comic book store's sales--and profits--come from. That's the thing, though--you want the narrowest possible definition of "the comic book industry." Again, if it's not a German Shep--er, Alsatian, it's not a dog.

But I think it's fair given the criteria. Those books have found marginal success replicating the product delivery style of the traditional book-seller industry, which is quite healthy. They are even assigned different nomenclature. I don't know enough about dogs to make an analogy, unfortunately.


But it's still the same medium, if not the same method of delivery and/or format.

With what qualifiers, besides the obvious?

[Iangould]

Fun home is totally Underground Comix, yo!

And so's that Halo grpahic novel from Marvel.

Because, you know, it doesn't have superheroes in it.

Do I really have to point out that hte direct market started otu primarily distributing non-Marvel non-DC books from publishers like Pacific and Eclipse and that the Big Two jumped on the bandwagon once it was already moving?

But, you know, Captain Victory; First Kingdom; Elfquest; Sabre, Scout, Detective Inc and Starslayer were all underground comics.

[Brandon Hanvey]

But who buys that shit?

I do for one. As well as a lot of other people. I also create such comics. So please do not refer to what I read and create that way.

[Jeff Brady]

With what qualifiers, besides the obvious?

Comics, or Sequential Art: n. A series of images (often called "panels") juxtaposed in order to tell a story. Text is common, but optional.