Unresolved Avengers Plot Elements?

[Linguini]

In New Avengers #6 some part of shield was keeping criminals in the raft to use them for some purpose. This was said but the NA never pursued the subject. Anyone know whatever happened to this sheild mystery or have any information on it?

[Expletive Deleted]

The whole Vibranium thing hasn't been dealt with, yet. Maybe in the NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL that's coming out shortly.

The idea of SHIELD being untrustworthy in general, though, has been getting screen time in NEW AVENGERS, CAPTAIN AMERICA, and SECRET WAR.

[Kirk G]

The whole Vibranium thing hasn't been dealt with, yet. Maybe in the NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL that's coming out shortly.

The idea of SHIELD being untrustworthy in general, though, has been getting screen time in NEW AVENGERS, CAPTAIN AMERICA, and SECRET WAR.
And the topic continually keeps resurfacing every few years in Marvel Comics.
I have lost count how many times now. I do wish writers would come up with a fresh angle now and again.... :rolleyes:

[Ogrebear]

Ever read the mini-series Conspiracy?

Read it and it will tell you everything you ever needed to know about SHEILD and their role in the M.U.

It's Available on ebay eg. from the UK: comics (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CONSPIRACY-PARTS-1-2-MARVEL_W0QQitemZ6611627073QQcategoryZ93475QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem)
Though its not been collected as far as I know.

A good overview of what might be going on is here: secrets (http://www.ffplaza.com/commcenter/articles/Conspiracy.shtml)

[mattbib]

There's been a lot of "new" lore added to the Avengers over the past couple years. But are there any unresolved plot points that a capable writer might dredge? Not specifically story "possibilities," mind you, but something that's already been started at some point and left unfinished?

If so, what, and where would you like to see the plot go?

[Phrozen]

The new Zodiac that was left dangling when John's left.

[Haunt]

The new Zodiac that was left dangling when John's left.


what Phrozen said. i also want to know why a vengeful Scarlet Witch didn't kill anyone who actually hid the existence of her babies from her.

[Golon9977]

Not a popular choice but I would like to know what happend to teen Tony. Unless they say he was just a Space Phantom.

[mattbib]

Not a popular choice but I would like to know what happend to teen Tony. Unless they say he was just a Space Phantom.That was already addressed in an Avengers Annual several years ago.

[Rich L]

That was already addressed in an Avengers Annual several years ago.

Was it? I know that at the time, Kurt Busiek said he was going to address it but I didn't know he'd actually gotten around to it.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of return of the Gatherers - I felt that kind of fizzed out at the end, and I'm sure there were threads left hanging after #375.

Warbird's and Vision's relationship in Busiek's run seemed interesting but that clearly went nowhere and is even less likely to go anywhere now (although how had up for women must Wonder Man be? First Wanda, now Carol - how many times can he pull the 'y'know, he was based on my brain patterns, so you were kinda dating me' card?)

The Zodiac - not only Johns' version, but also the one that showed up just prior to Onslaught. They always seem to pop up, be ominous, then vanish.

[Mitchel]

Jocasta's fate. Last time we saw her she was inhabiting the child synthezoid Antigone's body. Then we saw her with her original robotic body during Disassemble's reunion but that must have been a Scarlet Witch construct.

[protege]

what Phrozen said. i also want to know why a vengeful Scarlet Witch didn't kill anyone who actually hid the existence of her babies from her.
We don't even know if anyone knew they aere really alive, do we? Agatha harkness is gone, but who else knew? Were Billy and Tommy "outed' to the Avengers?

[phantom1592]

That was already addressed in an Avengers Annual several years ago.


What happened with him?!?

[Haunt]

What happened with him?!?


when Franklin Richards re-birthed the marvel heroes killed during Onslaught, Teen Tony was aged and given the memories of the Tony Stark who flipped out during the Crossing. so the Tony Stark who is currently leading the pro-side is Teen Tony.


We don't even know if anyone knew they aere really alive, do we? Agatha harkness is gone, but who else knew? Were Billy and Tommy "outed' to the Avengers?


i'm the last person to ask. i was under the impression that Wanda has always known that her children were fakes. i don't see why Jan making a slip of the tongue would have caused Disassembled.

[Kurt Busiek]

when Franklin Richards re-birthed the marvel heroes killed during Onslaught, Teen Tony was aged and given the memories of the Tony Stark who flipped out during the Crossing. so the Tony Stark who is currently leading the pro-side is Teen Tony.

Not really true. The last anyone saw of Teen Tony, he went into Onslaught. The Heroes Reborniverse character was an adult, so if he was aged, he was aged there, not on the return trip.

And the corpse of Adult Tony vanished from its grave, as well, so Current Tony is actually Adult Tony restored, not just Teen Tony with a memory makeover.

kdb

[protege]

If my head wasn't already hurting, that explination would've given me a migrane...

[static]

Teen Tony...deaf Hawkeye....Insect-like wasp...were all fixed by Franklin "deus-ex machina" richards...

does anyone remeber the Zodiack that appeared in the Alpha Flight relaunch (vol 2) that had a brainwashed madison jefferies as Gemini? were they the same one that appeared in the Johns run on Avengers?!?!? what was there status at the end of that arc??? dose anyone care about poor Madison Jefferies?!?!?!?

[mattbib]

does anyone remeber the Zodiack that appeared in the Alpha Flight relaunch (vol 2) that had a brainwashed madison jefferies as Gemini? were they the same one that appeared in the Johns run on Avengers?!?!? what was there status at the end of that arc??? dose anyone care about poor Madison Jefferies?!?!?!?No, the Alpha Flight version of Zodiac were all killed by the latest incarnation of Weapon X, except Jeffries, who more or less was brainwashed into serving the Director.

[Babylon23]

i'm the last person to ask. i was under the impression that Wanda has always known that her children were fakes. i don't see why Jan making a slip of the tongue would have caused Disassembled.

And you'd be 100% correct. Wanda did indeed remember her children. So my unresolved plot would be why did Wanda really go nuts?

I'd love to see the Zodiac return, especially if a writer could link the pre-Onslaught Zodiac attack with the Johns Zodiac idea.

[Haunt]

Not really true. The last anyone saw of Teen Tony, he went into Onslaught. The Heroes Reborniverse character was an adult, so if he was aged, he was aged there, not on the return trip.

And the corpse of Adult Tony vanished from its grave, as well, so Current Tony is actually Adult Tony restored, not just Teen Tony with a memory makeover.

kdb

ahh, i figured that Franklin's powers had wished adult tony's body into the cornfield AND create the Heroes Reborniverse. my fault.

[Sabrinaset]

Well, he WAS an Avenger for a few issues... but in the first Secret Wars, Reed Richards is called a "Force of Life" by Galactus... was that ever really explained elsewhere?

[StoneGold]

Who is going to win Civil War, Cap or Iron Man?



Hey, technically it is still unresolved.

[XPac]

Do we know who hired Electro to pull that prison break at the Raft during the first NA story arc?

I was always iffy about whether there was more to the story, or Brainchild and the Savage Land mutates were the end of that.

[Beamish]

During the recent Kang storyline, The Master was growing more of his odd creatures, one of whom could have been Marrina. Although Warbird seemingly killed him, what became of his creatures?

[Cosmic Book Fan]

Has anything ever been resolved in any issue of NA?

Looking back it seems like it's all still a bunch of dangling threads...

[Beamish]

What about Firebird and her possible immortality?

[mattbib]

What about Firebird and her possible immortality?Ooh..good one. I'm hoping to see something about that in Beyond.

[tangentman]

Since Englehart and Byrne devoted enough story time to it, I'm interested in learning the outcome of Master Pandemonium's search for the pieces of his soul. Were there any further appearances by "Master Panda Bear" after WCA ended?

[XPac]

Since Englehart and Byrne devoted enough story time to it, I'm interested in learning the outcome of Master Pandemonium's search for the pieces of his soul. Were there any further appearances by "Master Panda Bear" after WCA ended?

I think Pandemonium died when his suppossed soul fragments were all retrieved and he was replaced or absorbed by Mephisto.

Though admittedly it's been a while.

[Leebenhouse]

I think Pandemonium died when his suppossed soul fragments were all retrieved and he was replaced or absorbed by Mephisto.

Though admittedly it's been a while.
Yeah, I just read those issues, pretty sure he's croaked.

[Will.S]

Do we know who hired Electro to pull that prison break at the Raft during the first NA story arc?

I was always iffy about whether there was more to the story, or Brainchild and the Savage Land mutates were the end of that.
I asked Brian in the last Q & A and he said that this particular subplot hasn't been affected by Civil War so I'd expect it to still be revealed in a future NA issue.


Has anything ever been resolved in any issue of NA?

Looking back it seems like it's all still a bunch of dangling threads...
The Ronin stuff we all know is coming, the New Avengers will continue to hunt down the "Breakout" villains and the S.H.I.E.L.D. NA happenings are supposedly still brewing even though CW puts them in a somewhat safer place for the moment.

[Babylon23]

I think Pandemonium died when his suppossed soul fragments were all retrieved and he was replaced or absorbed by Mephisto.

Though admittedly it's been a while.

That's basically it. Once he'd collected all 5 fragments, he pretty much imploded.

[phantom1592]

That's basically it. Once he'd collected all 5 fragments, he pretty much imploded.


Sounds like that plan needed a little more thinking out.:confused:

[Cosmic Book Fan]

I think Pandemonium died when his suppossed soul fragments were all retrieved and he was replaced or absorbed by Mephisto.

Though admittedly it's been a while.


The Five pieces Pandemonium was looking for weren't his soul at all, they were Mephisto's shattered essence. And two of the fragments were used to create Wanda's children. When all five pieces were gathered Mephisto came back.

[Golon9977]

Not really true. The last anyone saw of Teen Tony, he went into Onslaught. The Heroes Reborniverse character was an adult, so if he was aged, he was aged there, not on the return trip.

And the corpse of Adult Tony vanished from its grave, as well, so Current Tony is actually Adult Tony restored, not just Teen Tony with a memory makeover.

kdb
What? So teen Tony is still disappeared during Onslaught so the Heroe Reborn Universe Iron Man was acutally teen Tony??

So if the corpse of the adult Tony vanished, how did he came back to life? I know the Avengers Annual (which I completely forgot about when I made my post) pretty much said that Franklin restored everything the way it used to be.

But this explanining up here kind of contradicts it doesnt it?

[Kurt Busiek]

What? So teen Tony is still disappeared during Onslaught so the Heroe Reborn Universe Iron Man was acutally teen Tony??

The Reborniverse Tony at the very least used Teen Tony as raw material, though it may well have used Adult Tony too. Franklin transformed things.


So if the corpse of the adult Tony vanished, how did he came back to life? I know the Avengers Annual (which I completely forgot about when I made my post) pretty much said that Franklin restored everything the way it used to be.

And it was right.


But this explanining up here kind of contradicts it doesnt it?

No, it repeats it. The explaining up there is the same stuff as is in that Annual backup.

kdb

[The Charlatan]

Does a 100 foot tall Bloodwraith still control the remains of that country Ultron exterminated? I think Black Knight's Ebon Blade has reappered in recent issues of Excalibur.

[Mitchel]

I think Pandemonium died when his suppossed soul fragments were all retrieved and he was replaced or absorbed by Mephisto.

Though admittedly it's been a while.

Master Pandemonium was last seen in the 90's Scarlet Witch solo series. He was deformed by Mephisto's tortures and had a love obsession with the Scarlet Witch. If I remember well, the Scarlet Witch killed him again -- as much as you can kill an already dead wraith.

[mattbib]

Does a 100 foot tall Bloodwraith still control the remains of that country Ultron exterminated? I think Black Knight's Ebon Blade has reappered in recent issues of Excalibur.I believe so; I don't recall any stories about him since he was trapped in Slorenia. So if it's the modern Ebon Blade that's appearing in New Excalibur a) it doesn't make sense or b) Bloodwraith was taken care of off-panel.

[Leebenhouse]

Does a 100 foot tall Bloodwraith still control the remains of that country Ultron exterminated? I think Black Knight's Ebon Blade has reappered in recent issues of Excalibur.
This is a good one but now I think it's going to be an Excalibur issue, rather than an Avengers one, since it appears Claremount wants the Black Knight for his return to the book.

[jade_nova]

Whatever happened to the country that Ultron wiped out? Was it ever cleaned up or what?

[Will.S]

Whatever happened to the country that Ultron wiped out? Was it ever cleaned up or what?
I think the bodies were removed but the wreckage still remained.

It was followed up a little before the Avengers went pro-active (Avengers #36 & 37 I believe). Sean Dolan (Black Knight's ex squire) was at Slorenia at the time for relief efforts and carried the ebony sword with him which sucked up all the souls of the people of Slorenia and turned Sean into the Bloodwraith. He was ultimately stuck in a mystic barrier left by Scarlet Witch but the ebony sword oddly enough appeared again in Excalibur #11.

[Kirk G]

Master Pandemonium was last seen in the 90's Scarlet Witch solo series. He was deformed by Mephisto's tortures and had a love obsession with the Scarlet Witch. If I remember well, the Scarlet Witch killed him again -- as much as you can kill an already dead wraith.

"can kill and already dead wraith".... wasn't that the point of the on-going Phantom Rider storyline from WCA 16-41??

But I digress...
I'm not sure it fits the definition of a dangling plot thread, but I was never really satisfied with the conclusion to the Immortus/TimeKeepers/Tempus storyline that whippered out after John Byrne left the West Coast Avengers series. I would really like to see either JB return to tell us the "real" story of how it would have ended, or else... construct a subplot to unravel that ending and tell a better ending... (possibly that sets up Dissembled or proves in someway that Dissembled couldn't have been Wanda or her fault ...somehow...

I don't know... that's a tall order. In fact, I guess I would be pleased to see ANY talented writer (Kurt Busiek, John Brubaker, etc) take on the above task.

Anyway, that was my wish for an unfinished Avengers plotline....:rolleyes:

[mattbib]

But I digress...
I'm not sure it fits the definition of a dangling plot thread, but I was never really satisfied with the conclusion to the Immortus/TimeKeepers/Tempus storyline that whippered out after John Byrne left the West Coast Avengers series. I would really like to see either JB return to tell us the "real" story of how it would have ended, or else... construct a subplot to unravel that ending and tell a better ending... (possibly that sets up Dissembled or proves in someway that Dissembled couldn't have been Wanda or her fault ...somehow...

I don't know... that's a tall order. In fact, I guess I would be pleased to see ANY talented writer (Kurt Busiek, John Brubaker, etc) take on the above task.

Anyway, that was my wish for an unfinished Avengers plotline....:rolleyes:It was put to rest in Avengers Forever as just another way in which Immortus, serving the Time Keepers, sought to prevent humans from travelling into space. I'd personally hate for any past Kang/Immortus story to be dredged up again, as I consider AF the final say in all of it.

[Kirk G]

Agreed. The less said about that period the better, IMHO.

But, then how do you feel about the latest go-around in the first six issues of Young Avengers?
Iron Lad as young Kang? Does this open old wounds?

[Captain Exaggeration]

The new Zodiac that was left dangling when John's left.
Thats exactly what I was about to say!

[o1pickleboy]

The one I want to know is.

Who cause Henry Pym's breakdown? I don't care if it isn't a dangling plotline. No superhero should ever be a wife beater. I believe that the orginally storyline called for a villian to be behind it. If it didn't, then it should have. It could have been Ultron or Egghead. Maybe something completely new. I don't care, but it needs to be fixed.

[mattbib]

The one I want to know is.

Who cause Henry Pym's breakdown? I don't care if it isn't a dangling plotline. No superhero should ever be a wife beater. I believe that the orginally storyline called for a villian to be behind it. If it didn't, then it should have. It could have been Ultron or Egghead. Maybe something completely new. I don't care, but it needs to be fixed.During the Crossing it was said that Kang was behind it, but during Avengers Forever it was revealed that that was a lie. Nobody was behind Pym's breakdowns except himself.

[o1pickleboy]

During the Crossing it was said that Kang was behind it, but during Avengers Forever it was revealed that that was a lie. Nobody was behind Pym's breakdowns except himself.


So we believe liars now, I don't believe Kang or Immortalis. It may not be with the current cannon, but I still reject it for the reasons in my eariler post.

[Mo S.]

Agreed. The less said about that period the better, IMHO.

But, then how do you feel about the latest go-around in the first six issues of Young Avengers?
Iron Lad as young Kang? Does this open old wounds?

On the one hand, Heinberg gets major points for starting his comics career off by diving right in to the deep end of the pool - a Kang story. But. I'd felt that that the whole Kang-Immortus thing was pretty much wrapped up prior to that. I know there will be more in the story next season (Heinberg's promising a Cassie-Iron Lad-Vision triangle), and I'm curious how this all plays out against what we know.

Of course, "Young Kang" doesn't really know all of his own history yet, so it's a reasonably good way of dealing with it, plus, since Young Kang interacted with the Young Avengers and the Avengers, his story has already been altered from the Kang we know, so it's already moved into the realm of alternate reality-Kang. Which is fine by me. He'll grow up to be a Kang, not necessarily the Kang.

[Laminator_X]

It occurs to me that Iron-Lad may grow up to be the now-separate-from-Kang Immortus that was created by the Time-Keepers in Avegers Forever.

[Alan2099]

Remember the council of Kangs? Is it possible that Ironlad is Kang without being THE Kang?

[mattbib]

Remember the council of Kangs? Is it possible that Ironlad is Kang without being THE Kang?Probably not. According to Avengers Forever the Council of Crosstime Kangs weren't true Kangs, or even divergents, but merely "beings who'd defeated one or another alternate Kang in the past...and adopted my armament, my methods.

[mattbib]

It occurs to me that Iron-Lad may grow up to be the now-separate-from-Kang Immortus that was created by the Time-Keepers in Avegers Forever.The Time-Keepers didn't create the paradoxical Immortus. He came about purely because of Kang's strong will. Of course maybe THAT was the Time-Keepers' intention, however it was obvious they were as surprised at these results as evreyone else. Maybe the reborn Immortus was simply Iron Lad pulled from some other period?

I'd rather he just be a divergent younger Kang, though; no sense getting tied to past, more complicated storylines.

But speaking of Avengers Forever, at the very end the Supreme Intelligence acquires the Forever Crystal. That'd be a plot point worth developing.

[XPac]

Probably not. According to Avengers Forever the Council of Crosstime Kangs weren't true Kangs, or even divergents, but merely "beings who'd defeated one or another alternate Kang in the past...and adopted my armament, my methods.

Although the Council of Kangs were retconned, there were nonetheless multiple Kangs in different storylines so I suppose it's theoretically possible that the Young Avengers Kang exists as a seperate one.

Young Avengers to a degree kind of changed how time travel works in the Marvel U, so it's hard to say how it will work in this version of it.

For what it's worth I do think it would be interesting to have a Young Avengers Kang out there without doing anything to ruin or water down the already established Kang. Though truthfully at TIMES Kang as a badguy isn't THAT bad. Avengers Forever Kang for example... he had a few shades of heroism in there, maybe we're suppossed to assume there was a little Young Avengers in him there.

[tangentman]

But speaking of Avengers Forever, at the very end the Supreme Intelligence acquires the Forever Crystal. That'd be a plot point worth developing.

IIRC, the SI used the FC to give the Kree an "evolutionary jumpstart". They gained the adaptation abilities we first saw in "Maximum Security" and evolved into the Ru'ul.

[mattbib]

IIRC, the SI used the FC to give the Kree an "evolutionary jumpstart". They gained the adaptation abilities we first saw in "Maximum Security" and evolved into the Ru'ul.Ahhh, that's right. I forgot about that being what caused it.

I can never keep up with the Ru'ul/Kree thing. Wasn't there more development in one of the Captain Marvel series?

[mattbib]

Avengers Forever Kang for example... he had a few shades of heroism in there, maybe we're suppossed to assume there was a little Young Avengers in him there.I disagree that AF Kang was heroic. He was purely interested in self-preservation; in not becoming Immortus. He reverted to type at the end when, because of the paradoxical Immortus, he was no longer fated to turn into him.

The same question could be posed about Iron Lad. Is he truly acting out of heroism or is he acting out of self-preservation? Intent on not becoming Kang?

[Mo S.]

I disagree that AF Kang was heroic. He was purely interested in self-preservation; in not becoming Immortus. He reverted to type at the end when, because of the paradoxical Immortus, he was no longer fated to turn into him.

The same question could be posed about Iron Lad. Is he truly acting out of heroism or is he acting out of self-preservation? Intent on not becoming Kang?

Well, look at it this way - why doesn't he want to become Kang, potentially ruler of all he surveys? Because he disapproves of Kang on multiple moral levels. And he's willing to sacrifice quite a bit, including potentially himself, not to become that person. So he's definitely principled, at any rate.

[Kirk G]

It occurs to me that Iron-Lad may grow up to be the now-separate-from-Kang Immortus that was created by the Time-Keepers in Avegers Forever. oooooh.... I like that one.
I REALLY like that idea. It feels good.:rolleyes:

I don't mind with a subject as complex as time travel, for someone to spin a good story off from some prior story that closed the chapter on Kang. Its an enigma after all...:D

[Cthulhudrew]

It was followed up a little before the Avengers went pro-active (Avengers #36 & 37 I believe). Sean Dolan (Black Knight's ex squire) was at Slorenia at the time for relief efforts and carried the ebony sword with him which sucked up all the souls of the people of Slorenia and turned Sean into the Bloodwraith. He was ultimately stuck in a mystic barrier left by Scarlet Witch but the ebony sword oddly enough appeared again in Excalibur #11.

Speaking of the Ebony Blade, I was never quite sure how the sword got to Crystal in Attilan when it was supposed to be in the possession of the Bloodwraith. It is clearly shown to be underneath Attilan in a couple issues of the Quicksilver title (though I'm not clear on where/how Crystal got it- it seemed to be implied that it happened during the time of the Crystal/Black Knight romance in Avengers, but I never read most of those issues). Anyone have any clues on this?

[DMike]

Since Englehart and Byrne devoted enough story time to it, I'm interested in learning the outcome of Master Pandemonium's search for the pieces of his soul. Were there any further appearances by "Master Panda Bear" after WCA ended?

I think Pandemonium died when his suppossed soul fragments were all retrieved and he was replaced or absorbed by Mephisto.

Though admittedly it's been a while.

Master Pandemonium was last seen alive and in his normal costume in one of the Gail Simone issues of Deadpool, though that was just a cameo, so it probably should be taken with a grain of salt.

[o1pickleboy]

It occurs to me that Iron-Lad may grow up to be the now-separate-from-Kang Immortus that was created by the Time-Keepers in Avegers Forever.


It is either that or Immortus is Kangs son Marcus.

[Kirk G]

I got an unresolved thread for you...
While re-reading the Essential Avengers volume 4, looking at issues #90 & 91 for the Hank slapping Jan scene, I found when Goliath II (Clint) raced off to rescue Hank & company, leaving Jan behind again, he was avoiding discussing his situtation with the Black Widow. Her face appears above his head while he speaks to himself outloud, pining for her. However, he comments on how her face merges into WANDA's and shakes her out of his thoughts wondering why that happened.
Was this an unresolved plot thread, or a potential triangle with Vision, Wanda and Clint that was never acted out?
I should think this might also be something to be dealt with when Clint catches up with Wanda... or a possible explanation of why some of dissembled came down!

Anybody else notice this? Anybody got a line to Roy Thomas to ask what he had intended? The next major storyline was the Kree-Skrull war, which this adventure was the prelude to...and then Goliath II vanishes on a Skrull ship.

[Hombre]

However, he comments on how her face merges into WANDA's and shakes her out of his thoughts wondering why that happened.
Was this an unresolved plot thread, or a potential triangle with Vision, Wanda and Clint that was never acted out?
I should think this might also be something to be dealt with when Clint catches up with Wanda... or a possible explanation of why some of dissembled came down!

Anybody else notice this?

Clint had been suffering from Natasha's rejection, and started developing feelings for Wanda. Unlike some of his fellow heroes, he wasn't shy about them, except that Wanda, who was developing feelings of her own for the Vision, turned him down as well.

This led to Clint being increasingly frustrated and quitting the Avengers for a time, and eventually embarassing himself, as men often do in these circumstances, by going all the way to San Fran and trying to convince the Black Widow that they belonged together, to no avail, natch.

All in all, these tales by Thomas - who also wrote the very moving tale of his brother's death - and Englehart were the ones that made me appreciate Clint's more human and vulnerable side, and helped make him such an endearing character.

[Pyro]

I was re-reading New Avengers, and I am really curious about this. Are there any new theories?

[Ventura]

Kirk and Pyro (and anyone else who may be interested):

I posted a rather lengthy chronology of the Hawkeye-Wanda connection in the "New Avengers #26 Spoilers" thread recently, on 12/23 or thereabouts...it may be helpful in filling in the gaps, you may want to take a look.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=156980&page=15

[The M.E.]

Speaking of Deathcry (what do you mean we weren't?), was her ultimate Shi'ar prophetical importance ever resolved? I vaguely remember Hercules going there with her, but i feel like it was left dangling.

[Rich L]

Speaking of Deathcry (what do you mean we weren't?), was her ultimate Shi'ar prophetical importance ever resolved? I vaguely remember Hercules going there with her, but i feel like it was left dangling.

It was; Herc returned in the Hulk/Hercules Unleashed one-shot after Onslaught to find his colleagues apparently dead, and I don't think we ever heard anything about Deathcry again.

[Kirk G]

Kirk and Pyro (and anyone else who may be interested):

I posted a rather lengthy chronology of the Hawkeye-Wanda connection in the "New Avengers #26 Spoilers" thread recently, on 12/23 or thereabouts...it may be helpful in filling in the gaps, you may want to take a look.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=156980&page=15

WOW! Great job, Ventura.:D

[Ventura]

Thanks, Kirk. :)

Like Mark Evanier says (in that great quote you use): "What else am I going to do with all this useless comics trivia I have stored in my head?"

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

Was it? I know that at the time, Kurt Busiek said he was going to address it but I didn't know he'd actually gotten around to it.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of return of the Gatherers - I felt that kind of fizzed out at the end, and I'm sure there were threads left hanging after #375.

Warbird's and Vision's relationship in Busiek's run seemed interesting but that clearly went nowhere and is even less likely to go anywhere now (although how had up for women must Wonder Man be? First Wanda, now Carol - how many times can he pull the 'y'know, he was based on my brain patterns, so you were kinda dating me' card?)

The Zodiac - not only Johns' version, but also the one that showed up just prior to Onslaught. They always seem to pop up, be ominous, then vanish.

As far as Teen Tony, one of two things happenned courtesy of Franklin Richards. Teen Tony and adult Tony were merged. Teen Tony was transformed into an adult who had not only full memories of both, but of an HR life as well. To figure out which actually occurred, I'd have to remember whether or not there was a body in Tony Stark's grave in the afforementioned Annual.

In all fairness, this plotline should resurface, as Tony may have some interest in events on Counter-Earth and Timeslide Earth.

Wonderman and Carol kind of had a thing way back when from 172 through
200, so Vision kind of copied him in that regard.

I wouldn't say the Gatherers fizzled out, the storyline ended with a bang...but seeing them as a team or as individuals WITHOUT Proctor would be interesting. Maybe Swordsman and Magdelene should take some responsibility for them. They must be somewhere....

Be interested in seeing either Zodiac. Is it definite there is no connection between the two?

[Rollo_Tomasi]

What was behind that door in New Avengers #26?

[marshal99]

I wouldn't say the Gatherers fizzled out, the storyline ended with a bang...but seeing them as a team or as individuals WITHOUT Proctor would be interesting. Maybe Swordsman and Magdelene should take some responsibility for them. They must be somewhere....


Well , some of them (the alternate reality vision , jocasta & the other android) did appeared in the vision mini series that followed later to wrap up the gatherers storyline somewhat. Though what happened with that vision , alternate golden armor jocasta & the other gathering refugee after the mini , i have no idea.

Before avengers 400 , in issue 398-399 , the avengers were attacked by some powerful foe named Benedict who got the better of them. That plotline was never resolved until Kurt Busiek took over and revealed it like 3-4 years later.

I wonder what the original plan was for that story anyway ? It was so weird to have that story dangling and they went off to fight onslaught and dissapear for a year.

[Will.S]

What was behind that door in New Avengers #26?
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7969/lab000100010img00741691bk6.jpg

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

Well , some of them (the alternate reality vision , jocasta & the other android) did appeared in the vision mini series that followed later to wrap up the gatherers storyline somewhat. Though what happened with that vision , alternate golden armor jocasta & the other gathering refugee after the mini , i have no idea.

Before avengers 400 , in issue 398-399 , the avengers were attacked by some powerful foe named Benedict who got the better of them. That plotline was never resolved until Kurt Busiek took over and revealed it like 3-4 years later.

I wonder what the original plan was for that story anyway ? It was so weird to have that story dangling and they went off to fight onslaught and dissapear for a year.

Yeah, especially considering the Gatherer Jocasta, we need to see what happenned to these guys. Did they register?

Busiek cleared up the Masque mystery...but I never actually understood Benedict's connection.


Speaking of Deathcry (what do you mean we weren't?), was her ultimate Shi'ar prophetical importance ever resolved? I vaguely remember Hercules going there with her, but i feel like it was left dangling.

Deathcry's prophetical importance probably wasn't addressed in Annihilation, but I'm still reading that.


In New Avengers #6 some part of shield was keeping criminals in the raft to use them for some purpose. This was said but the NA never pursued the subject. Anyone know whatever happened to this sheild mystery or have any information on it?


Has this been dealt with since this post?


when Franklin Richards re-birthed the marvel heroes killed during Onslaught, Teen Tony was aged and given the memories of the Tony Stark who flipped out during the Crossing. so the Tony Stark who is currently leading the pro-side is Teen Tony.


Not really true. The last anyone saw of Teen Tony, he went into Onslaught. The Heroes Reborniverse character was an adult, so if he was aged, he was aged there, not on the return trip.

And the corpse of Adult Tony vanished from its grave, as well, so Current Tony is actually Adult Tony restored, not just Teen Tony with a memory makeover.

kdb

Oh, ok. But Teen Tony IS in there too!



I'm the last person to ask. i was under the impression that Wanda has always known that her children were fakes. i don't see why Jan making a slip of the tongue would have caused Disassembled.

In AWC, Wanda had her memories temporarily "removed". Later she was shown to have remembered them, but it was such a passing moment, I'm not surprised the editors and writers forgot it. Wish I could remember what issue that happenned in.


During the recent Kang storyline, The Master was growing more of his odd creatures, one of whom could have been Marrina. Although Warbird seemingly killed him, what became of his creatures?

This needs to be dealt with.


What about Firebird and her possible immortality?


Ooh..good one. I'm hoping to see something about that in Beyond.

Was it addressed?


Since Englehart and Byrne devoted enough story time to it, I'm interested in learning the outcome of Master Pandemonium's search for the pieces of his soul. Were there any further appearances by "Master Panda Bear" after WCA ended?




I think Pandemonium died when his suppossed soul fragments were all retrieved and he was replaced or absorbed by Mephisto.

Though admittedly it's been a while.

The mystery was solved in that the "Five" that Master Panda Bear were looking for were not exactly pieces of his soul like he thought, but fragments of Mephisto scattered by Franklin Richards. Two of which were Tommy and Billy (or Wiccan and Speed). Maybe Martin Preston will resurface in their story...


The Five pieces Pandemonium was looking for weren't his soul at all, they were Mephisto's shattered essence. And two of the fragments were used to create Wanda's children. When all five pieces were gathered Mephisto came back.

Right.


Master Pandemonium was last seen in the 90's Scarlet Witch solo series. He was deformed by Mephisto's tortures and had a love obsession with the Scarlet Witch. If I remember well, the Scarlet Witch killed him again -- as much as you can kill an already dead wraith.

Ugh.



Master Pandemonium was last seen alive and in his normal costume in one of the Gail Simone issues of Deadpool, though that was just a cameo, so it probably should be taken with a grain of salt.

Interesting. Ok, I'd like to see him in the pages of Avengers. If he appeared, then he appeared.


It is either that or Immortus is Kangs son Marcus.

Nah. Bad enough that Kang and Immortus both have seperate sons named Marcus, and both Marcus Kang and Kang himself are also the Scarlet Centurion.

I think the bodies were removed but the wreckage still remained.

It was followed up a little before the Avengers went pro-active (Avengers #36 & 37 I believe). Sean Dolan (Black Knight's ex squire) was at Slorenia at the time for relief efforts and carried the ebony sword with him which sucked up all the souls of the people of Slorenia and turned Sean into the Bloodwraith. He was ultimately stuck in a mystic barrier left by Scarlet Witch but the ebony sword oddly enough appeared again in Excalibur #11.





I believe so; I don't recall any stories about him since he was trapped in Slorenia. So if it's the modern Ebon Blade that's appearing in New Excalibur a) it doesn't make sense or b) Bloodwraith was taken care of off-panel.

Should be addressed. Poor Sean Dolan. Poor Victoria Bentley.


Speaking of the Ebony Blade, I was never quite sure how the sword got to Crystal in Attilan when it was supposed to be in the possession of the Bloodwraith. It is clearly shown to be underneath Attilan in a couple issues of the Quicksilver title (though I'm not clear on where/how Crystal got it- it seemed to be implied that it happened during the time of the Crystal/Black Knight romance in Avengers, but I never read most of those issues). Anyone have any clues on this?

At one point it was said that Crystal had the Sword of Might, but if anything, that made less sense.



What was behind that door in New Avengers #26?

The Cheers Bar.

[Will.S]

In New Avengers #6 some part of shield was keeping criminals in the raft to use them for some purpose. This was said but the NA never pursued the subject. Anyone know whatever happened to this sheild mystery or have any information on it?
Has this been dealt with since this post?
I believe it was the skrulls as part of their infiltration plan.

[Pedrocas]

I have a question: what's the deal with the two Thors showing up in Heroes Reborn? There's the Heroes Reborn egyptian lookalike Thor and later the regular Thor appears and the first one die or something. Please, explain.

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

I have a question: what's the deal with the two Thors showing up in Heroes Reborn? There's the Heroes Reborn egyptian lookalike Thor and later the regular Thor appears and the first one die or something. Please, explain.

The Thor in Avengers 2.1 who died in 2.11 was a creation of Franklin/native of Counter-Earth reality. The Thor who appeared in 2.9 onward is Thor from 616, who had last been seen in Onslaught Marvel Universe, and prior to that in 1.402. He appeared next after Heroes Return in Avengers 3.1.

Unresolved plot point....who exactly is Nebula really?

[marshal99]

Don't think Nebula ever revealed her true origins though i do think that she does believes herself to be the granddaughter of thanos.
When Thanos escaped from titan as a child into the far reaches of the universe to learn the dark arts to enhance himself after killing his own mother , there was a long period of thanos life from his youth to adult that was never written or known about. It could be during that period that thanos might have unwittingly foster a child without his knowledge and that child might have grown up and have nebula.

[GHalecki]

[QUOTE=Kirk G;3638484]I got an unresolved thread for you...
While re-reading the Essential Avengers volume 4, looking at issues #90 & 91 for the Hank slapping Jan scene....QUOTE]

You lost me in that first paragraph.....why were you looking in issues 90 and 91 for something that happened in issues 214 or thereabout?

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

[QUOTE=Kirk G;3638484]I got an unresolved thread for you...
While re-reading the Essential Avengers volume 4, looking at issues #90 & 91 for the Hank slapping Jan scene....QUOTE]

You lost me in that first paragraph.....why were you looking in issues 90 and 91 for something that happened in issues 214 or thereabout?

Yeah, I was starting to think 213 was not the first instance, but I knew hank had undergone some sort of transformation in 90-91, so I thought it was explainable. Is that the case? Don't have my indexes handy?

[alf_to_the_rescue]

Master Pandemonium was last seen alive and in his normal costume in one of the Gail Simone issues of Deadpool, though that was just a cameo, so it probably should be taken with a grain of salt.

Master Pandemonium showed up in Wiccans and Speeds issue of "Young Avengers presents" when they were looking for Wanda.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

Moses Magnum and Apocalypse.

[GHalecki]

[QUOTE=GHalecki;7968984]

Yeah, I was starting to think 213 was not the first instance, but I knew hank had undergone some sort of transformation in 90-91, so I thought it was explainable. Is that the case? Don't have my indexes handy?

213 was in fact the first and ONLY time it happened. It was not some sort of pattern of abuse, like some people would like to think. He was always troubled, but it was the only time that his mental problems ever expressed themselves that way.

If I remember correctly, issue 90 had Hank devolved into some sort of cave man or something, ans when the Avengers fought him the Wasp was injured. Hank felt guilty about it, but you really can't hold that issue against him anymore than you can cases where many various members were amnesiac, or mind controled or some other kind of thing. It even happened to the Wasp once when she was posessed by Dr Spectrum.

[Frank]

OK what were The Gatherers about actualy? And where did they go? First i'll tell you what I know(or what I think I know):

A group of super-beings from alternate realities destroyed by Sersi. They want revenge on her. Then it is revealed than they were actualy destroyed by an alternate Dane Whitman possessed by the Ebony Blade, right? At the time the real Vision had this ghost-like look with the white outfit and pale skin. Then he somehow exchanged body with the alternate reality Vision(who had the classic green and yellow look). The other Gatherers were destroyed except for their group's Swordsman plus his girlfriend Magdela who then left for the Squadron Supreme reality. Am I missing something?

About The Gatherers it is still an appealing concept to me because it was one of the first few ideas that had been created in the Avengers book in a while. The Avengers have always mainly dealt with domestic problems(whether it's a former teamate going nuts or whatever) and mainly being a place to visit to rest of the Marvel Universe than introducing new concepts. And also it wasn't the typical "hahaha!" maniachal villain at play here like a Graviton or a Count Nefaria would be. I would like to see some of these characters back like the alternate Swordsman and revisit these ideas a bit. Maybe introduce Kang into it, given his space-time travelling.

Also anyone remember what was Thane Ector about?

[bubbalee33]

At the end of Ultron Unlimited ( i think) War Toy takes the memory/personality discs Ultron was going to use to create his race of robots and splits. Im pretty sure this was never followed up on.

[Elegance Liberty]

Deathcry's prophetical importance probably wasn't addressed in Annihilation, but I'm still reading that.

It wasn't. She did appear in 'Annihilation: Conquest' as part of Starlord's group, but she was unceremoniously killed and reduced to ash not long into his mini-series.

[Asian_Invasion]

A big one, at least to me, is what happened to Kang? We haven't seen him since the Young Avengers ended.

[Ryan W]

At the end of Ultron Unlimited ( i think) War Toy takes the memory/personality discs Ultron was going to use to create his race of robots and splits. Im pretty sure this was never followed up on.

It was addressed in Avengers: The Ultron Imperative and several issues of the 2000s series.

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

OK what were The Gatherers about actualy? And where did they go? First i'll tell you what I know(or what I think I know):

A group of super-beings from alternate realities destroyed by Sersi. They want revenge on her. Then it is revealed than they were actualy destroyed by an alternate Dane Whitman possessed by the Ebony Blade, right? At the time the real Vision had this ghost-like look with the white outfit and pale skin. Then he somehow exchanged body with the alternate reality Vision(who had the classic green and yellow look). The other Gatherers were destroyed except for their group's Swordsman plus his girlfriend Magdela who then left for the Squadron Supreme reality. Am I missing something?

About The Gatherers it is still an appealing concept to me because it was one of the first few ideas that had been created in the Avengers book in a while. The Avengers have always mainly dealt with domestic problems(whether it's a former teamate going nuts or whatever) and mainly being a place to visit to rest of the Marvel Universe than introducing new concepts. And also it wasn't the typical "hahaha!" maniachal villain at play here like a Graviton or a Count Nefaria would be. I would like to see some of these characters back like the alternate Swordsman and revisit these ideas a bit. Maybe introduce Kang into it, given his space-time travelling.

Also anyone remember what was Thane Ector about?

Proctor was the Dane Whitman of an alternate reality. In that reality, she had done the Gann Josin bonding with him (mind-link/marriage). She rejected him, and the mind meld drove him mad. He killed her with the Ebony Blade. He then began to hunt down Sersis in other realities where she had in many cases destroyed Earth. The Gatherers were survivors of those timelines. He began driving Sersi mad in this timeline in a plotline that ran from 343 to 375. Our Dane killed him, but too late, Sersi was mad and had to go to the Ultraverse. The Gatherers were not indeed destroyed, and two of them showed up in the Vision mini. Swordsman and Magdelene, Gatherers who repented and became provisional Avengers, ended up going to an alternate reality, not Earth-S though.

Thane Ector was the leader of the Brethren, a warrior race the Celestials had evolved from germs. After "escaping" from the Collector, the Brethren tried to conquer Earth, but ended up having to work with the Avengers vs. the Collector. Sersi helped the Brethren form a Uni-Mind, which was later thought to be the cause of her madness before it was revealed Proctor was the guy who did it.


It wasn't. She did appear in 'Annihilation: Conquest' as part of Starlord's group, but she was unceremoniously killed and reduced to ash not long into his mini-series.

Thanks.

[marvell2100]

Okay someone refresh my memory again but whatever happened to the Hank Pym from Avengers Forever? I know he made it into this timeline and replaced our Pym but I don't recall what happened to him afterwards.

[GHalecki]

It could just be my faulty memory, but I don't remember the War Bride stuff being addressed at all after the end of that Ultron story. The last thing I remember is her taking off with those ceramic microchips and disappearing. What DID end up happening with that?

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

You may have missed this post:


It was addressed in Avengers: The Ultron Imperative and several issues of the 2000s series.

[tangentman]

Okay someone refresh my memory again but whatever happened to the Hank Pym from Avengers Forever? I know he made it into this timeline and replaced our Pym but I don't recall what happened to him afterwards.

I don't think that's what happened. After the events of AF, the roster changed to Iron Man, Wasp, Giant-Man, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel/Warbird, Scarlet Witch and Triathlon. Hanger-on Silverclaw received an urgent summons from home. She went back to her homeland, accompanied by the Avengers.

They became entangled in Kulan Gath's plot to sacrifice the local volcano goddess to his demonic masters. This goddess was also Silverclaw's mom. Part of Gath's plot was reverting a city back to Hyborean times. Warbird, She-Hulk, and Giant-Man step through the gate--and are transformed into ancient fantasy versions of themselves (think Conan or Red Sonja). In the process, Giant-Man splits into two men: a hyper-logical "Giant-Man" form, and an impulsive "Yellowjacket" form.

The popular theory at the time was that the YJ who abducted Hank was the AF version, but that was disproved.

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

I don't think that's what happened. After the events of AF, the roster changed to Iron Man, Wasp, Giant-Man, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel/Warbird, Scarlet Witch and Triathlon. Hanger-on Silverclaw received an urgent summons from home. She went back to her homeland, accompanied by the Avengers.

They became entangled in Kulan Gath's plot to sacrifice the local volcano goddess to his demonic masters. This goddess was also Silverclaw's mom. Part of Gath's plot was reverting a city back to Hyborean times. Warbird, She-Hulk, and Giant-Man step through the gate--and are transformed into ancient fantasy versions of themselves (think Conan or Red Sonja). In the process, Giant-Man splits into two men: a hyper-logical "Giant-Man" form, and an impulsive "Yellowjacket" form.

The popular theory at the time was that the YJ who abducted Hank was the AF version, but that was disproved.


Replace "Giant-Man" in your post with "Goliath", and you've nailed it.

[Cthulhudrew]

Don't think Nebula ever revealed her true origins though i do think that she does believes herself to be the granddaughter of thanos.

Nah. Her true parentage was eventually revealed. Her father is some old Nova villain named Zorr (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/zorrnova.htm). The first we ever glimpsed of him in her history was when she had a flashback to suffering abuse at his hands in an issue of Silver Surfer (he wasn't named at the time). Later, during Erik Larsen's Nova series, he was actually identified as being Zorr.

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

Nah. Her true parentage was eventually revealed. Her father is some old Nova villain named Zorr (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/zorrnova.htm). The first we ever glimpsed of him in her history was when she had a flashback to suffering abuse at his hands in an issue of Silver Surfer (he wasn't named at the time). Later, during Erik Larsen and Kurt Busiek's Nova series, he was actually identified as being Zorr.

Does this rule out Thanos being her grandfather?

[Kurt Busiek]

Does this rule out Thanos being her grandfather?

Thanos rules it out, at least. He's said he has no offspring -- as befits someone devoted to death, not life.

kdb

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

Thanos rules it out, at least. He's said he has no offspring -- as befits someone devoted to death, not life.

kdb

Still, you'd think it would have been settled conclusively during Infinity Gauntlet.

[Kurt Busiek]

Still, you'd think it would have been settled conclusively during Infinity Gauntlet.

Isn't that where Thanos told her he wasn't her grandfather and nearly killed her?

I may be misremembering, but I thought that scene was fairly early in INFINITY GAUNTLET, when he took back his ship. The impression I had was that she claimed to be Thanos's granddaughter for the clout it gave her, and the lie lasted only as long as Thanos was "dead" and unable to contradict her.

Once he was resurrected, he contradicted her pretty hard.

kdb

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

Isn't that where Thanos told her he wasn't her grandfather and nearly killed her?

I may be misremembering, but I thought that scene was fairly early in INFINITY GAUNTLET, when he took back his ship. The impression I had was that she claimed to be Thanos's granddaughter for the clout it gave her, and the lie lasted only as long as Thanos was "dead" and unable to contradict her.

Once he was resurrected, he contradicted her pretty hard.

kdb

I remember Thanos doubting her claim, but never using, say his newfound powers, to check. Of course he may have been so sure he didn't reproduce that he felt no need to check. He did, off the cuff, refer to Nebula (and Eros) as his family when he was torturing them. But I don't remember it well enough to say for sure it was never disproven, but I think i would have remembered if it had been.

[marshal99]

It could just be my faulty memory, but I don't remember the War Bride stuff being addressed at all after the end of that Ultron story. The last thing I remember is her taking off with those ceramic microchips and disappearing. What DID end up happening with that?

It was addressd in the special one-shot - Ultron Imperative
http://www.leaderslair.com/avengers/otheravengers/ultronimperative.html.

[Cthulhudrew]

Isn't that where Thanos told her he wasn't her grandfather and nearly killed her?

Yes. He later (during Infinity Gauntlet) commented about a "family reunion" when he, she, and Starfox were together, but considering the nature of the scene (he was torturing both Eros and Nebula), I find it hard to consider that reference anything other than a dark joke by Thanos.


I may be misremembering, but I thought that scene was fairly early in INFINITY GAUNTLET, when he took back his ship.

IIRC, it was in an issue of Silver Surfer where Thanos appeared, killed her lover/second in command Geatar, and burned Nebula horribly. It happened before the Infinity Gauntlet series, but was a lead-in to it.

But yeah, Thanos' comment was as you recall- that he, as Death's prime worshipper, would never "drop progeny". Which makes all sorts of sense.

(As to theories that, well, it's possible Thanos didn't/odesn't know if he ever impregnated a woman, again, I'd have to say I seriously doubt it. Thanos is, and always has been, the meticulous planner. He's the cosmic Batman... if Batman were a nihilist. I'm sure Thanos remembers full well all- if any- women he's ever been with, and would have known about any pregnancies he might have been responsible for. Heck, his initial enamoration with Death came to him at such a young age, I would be very surprised if Thanos has ever actually been with a woman.)

[The Hope and the Slaughter]

Yes. He later (during Infinity Gauntlet) commented about a "family reunion" when he, she, and Starfox were together, but considering the nature of the scene (he was torturing both Eros and Nebula), I find it hard to consider that reference anything other than a dark joke by Thanos.



IIRC, it was in an issue of Silver Surfer where Thanos appeared, killed her lover/second in command Geatar, and burned Nebula horribly. It happened before the Infinity Gauntlet series, but was a lead-in to it.

But yeah, Thanos' comment was as you recall- that he, as Death's prime worshipper, would never "drop progeny". Which makes all sorts of sense.

(As to theories that, well, it's possible Thanos didn't/odesn't know if he ever impregnated a woman, again, I'd have to say I seriously doubt it. Thanos is, and always has been, the meticulous planner. He's the cosmic Batman... if Batman were a nihilist. I'm sure Thanos remembers full well all- if any- women he's ever been with, and would have known about any pregnancies he might have been responsible for. Heck, his initial enamoration with Death came to him at such a young age, I would be very surprised if Thanos has ever actually been with a woman.)

I agree 100%. I just don't recall it being stated for the record. But someday my comics won't be in storage, and I'll double check!