What Are The Worst Retcons Of The Marvel Universe?

[jmc247]

What recons in Marvel comics just left you going what the hell was that?

[Haunt]

What recons in Marvel comics just left you going what the hell was that?


having Doctor Strange, of all people, claiming that there is no such thing as chaos magic.

[DDM]

Kwannon/Revanche as Psylocke's doublemint twin from X-Men #19-21, 31-32 to explain Betsy Braddock's transformation from Anglo-Saxon female to an Asian female. Fabien made another mistake making Kwannon Japanese when she should be Chinese.

Everything about Avengers Disassembled & House of M concerning the Scarlet Witch.

[Beamish]

1) Black Widow's memories (thrown off a roof into Ivan's arms as a baby during WW2, being a ballerina, being the only Black Widow until Yelena showed up) were implanted. She was a test subject, along with a lot of other Widows in training.
2) She was/is controlled/manipulated by pharmcuticals, which make her subserviant to Nick Fury.
3) Oh yeah, and that her dead husband, the Red Guardian is still alive (which, after all of this "new origin" crap for her, isn't he an implanted memory, too?).

[Haunt]

1) Black Widow's memories (thrown off a roof into Ivan's arms as a baby during WW2, being a ballerina, being the only Black Widow until Yelena showed up) were implanted. She was a test subject, along with a lot of other Widows in training.
2) She was/is controlled/manipulated by pharmcuticals, which make her subserviant to Nick Fury.
3) Oh yeah, and that her dead husband, the Red Guardian is still alive (which, after all of this "new origin" crap for her, isn't he an implanted memory, too?).

W...........T.................F?

[Young Avenger]

Everything about Avengers Disassembled & House of M concerning the Scarlet Witch.

That's more of the worst use of selective continuity then a retcon.

[jmc247]

I am still confused about the Xorneto's brother wrecked NY thing.

[Wind-Breaker]

Its a tie-between the conclusion of the clone wars, and the Xorn/Magneto travesty. Switching identities really rubs me the wrong way.

[Jeff-E]

I'm not trying to offend anyone here because I know his fans think he's the second coming of Estelle Getty, but anything involving the Morrison run, either the retconns during or after. Between Xorneto, and Genosha first being destroyed by a satalite and Mrs.Nova, then it was a multi teared sentinel attack, then it was a nuclear weapon, then it was sentinels again then it was a "super-sentinel", then there is the "Phoenix corps" in here comes tomorrow (though the Crawlers and Apollyon were cool) , and the secondary mutations, not much during this run made sense the things he tried to retroactively change didn't make much sense and the retconns after didn't either.

[static]

Xorn-neto is definatly the worst....so damn bad we dont even know (after it was explained) what the hell really happened! this recon is more of a "what if grant morrison wrote the xmen" than a real continuty story...

[protege]

W...........T.................F?
I know- was she a Russian agent, or always loyal to Fury?

[brundlefly]

Can I put bringing Norman Osborn back from the dead in here or does that technically belong in the Spider-Man section? :D

Of all the bad Spidey retcons, that's the worst one for me; if nothing else because it seemed to start a relentless tidal wave of them afterwards.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Lockjaw isn't really a dog.

[The Lucky One]

When Spider-Man was caught spying on the X-Men during Secret Wars, fought them off and managed to escape... and then had his memory erased by Xavier before he could tell anyone what they were up to? Yeah, that was pretty much the worst recon in the Marvel Universe. Effin' Spidey.

-D

[Aaron King]

Lockjaw isn't really a dog.

But the retcon was retconned! He's a dog again! See Peter David's first run on X-Factor.

[Alan2099]

When Spider-Man was caught spying on the X-Men during Secret Wars, fought them off and managed to escape... and then had his memory erased by Xavier before he could tell anyone what they were up to? Yeah, that was pretty much the worst recon in the Marvel Universe. Effin' Spidey.

-D
That's not even close to a retcon. That happened. A retcon is taking a previously told story and then saying "that didn't happen," or "that happened, but not in that way."

Now if we had never got that scene but years later after Secret Wars was over, somebody threw in a scene where Spidey was spying on the X-men and then got mindwiped, that would be a retcon.

[The Lucky One]

That's not even close to a retcon. That happened. A retcon is taking a previously told story and then saying "that didn't happen," or "that happened, but not in that way."

That's, uh... that's quite true. It's definitely not a retcon.

A recon, on the other hand...

-D

[Babylon23]

I have to agree with the following:

Kwannon/Revanche
Norman Osbourne still alive

And let me add:

Avengers Disassembled - Scarlet Witch suddenly doesn't remember her children, and oh yeah, she's crazy.

Avengers Disassembled - Dr. Strange: Chaos magic doesn't exist. Except I've used it in the past.

Avengers Disassembled - Captain America doesn't take charge in difficult situation, he sits around arguing and crying instead.

Jean Grey wasn't Phoenix at all. Let's flush all that emotional resonance down the toilet.

[Jeff-E]

Avengers Disassembled - Scarlet Witch suddenly doesn't remember her children, and oh yeah, she's crazy.


This happened back in WCA when they took her kids away they erased her memory of them i.e. Agatha Harkness. And she went nuts even back then. This wasn't so much a retcon as using a past story.

[Kid Monster]

I'm not trying to offend anyone here because I know his fans think he's the second coming of Estelle Getty, but anything involving the Morrison run, either the retconns during or after. Between Xorneto,

Grant Morrison's run was wild, crazy, and sometimes very goofy, but in fairness to him it actually all fit within continuity, although sometimes a little roughly.

The stuff that drove me to pulling out hair and that still makes no sense to me whatsoever is the "That wasn't really Magneto pretending to be Xorn, it was somebody pretending to be Xorn pretending to be Magneto. No, wait, it was really..." stuff that other writers added later as one of many attempts to "explain away" Morrison's run. They did more damage trying to "fix" what Morrison established than Morrison ever could have done.

As far as my vote for "Worst Marvel Retcon"... this may be a generational thing, but I still think they made a massive mistake in bringing Jean Grey back in the 80's. The Death of Phoenix Saga was always, to me, the ultimate X-Men story, and one of the greatest "Old school traditional supers" stories of all time. When I was a kid in the early 80's, it was widely regarded as one of the classic, lynchpin Marvel stories... now it's just kinda a footnote. A respected footnote, yes, but not quite what it once was.

[Norrin Radd]

The Beyonder let Doom steal his power.

[Babylon23]

This happened back in WCA when they took her kids away they erased her memory of them i.e. Agatha Harkness. And she went nuts even back then. This wasn't so much a retcon as using a past story.

The problem is that in the 15 years since that story, Wanda regained her memory, came to terms with the loss, and moved on. In the early issues of Busiek's run, she even draws strength from the event, and it helps her escape Morgaine le Fey's imprisonment.

The retcon comes from Bendis suddenly deciding that she didn't remember her children, and that the sudden revelation would be enough to drive her completely insane.

[Jeff-E]

The problem is that in the 15 years since that story, Wanda regained her memory, came to terms with the loss, and moved on. In the early issues of Busiek's run, she even draws strength from the event, and it helps her escape Morgaine le Fey's imprisonment.

The retcon comes from Bendis suddenly deciding that she didn't remember her children, and that the sudden revelation would be enough to drive her completely insane.

I missed some of that, I didn't know she regained her memory of the event. Sorry, my bad. However she has always struck me as a character who is slightly off in the head... or maybe I'm just trying to make excuses, I don't know. I guess since I didn't know that and I'm one of the few who did like disassembled I just felt the need to try and defend it.

[Dark Soul # 7]

First of all, it's Norman Osborn. Not Osbourne.

And Sins past is probably the worst.

[demos22]

I can think of 3...

1) The Xorn-Magneto mess... As much as I like Grant Morrison's run, the whole return of Magneto-thing afterwards was completely pointless. I don't think that it was ever explained in any story... I think I read it in one of the Handbook entries.

2) Death of Aunt May in Amazing Spider-Man #400 - To me this was one of the most touching Spidey story, especially the last few panels when Aunt May told Peter she knew of her identity all along... All of this was wiped away with some lame excuse... No, nobody even remembers the issue.

3) The Spidey clone saga... 'nuff said

[Kevinroc]

Avengers Disassembled - Scarlet Witch suddenly doesn't remember her children, and oh yeah, she's crazy.

Avengers Disassembled - Dr. Strange: Chaos magic doesn't exist. Except I've used it in the past.

Avengers Disassembled - Captain America doesn't take charge in difficult situation, he sits around arguing and crying instead.

Jean Grey wasn't Phoenix at all. Let's flush all that emotional resonance down the toilet.

1: I blame Wanda encountering Billy in Young Avengers Special. I look to YA season 2 to "save" Wanda. Especially since Billy and Tommy are going to look for Wanda.

2: Strange had a memory fart. It happens. :p

3: Captain America & The Falcon. There was a nice Disassembled tie-in where Cap and Wanda... well... it explains A LOT about why Cap was acting the way he did in Disassembled. Priest went above and beyond with that.

4: I blame Kurt Busiek for that one.

[Markavian]

Vulcan.... WTF does Cyclops need ANOTHER Brother For? That whole SL Simply blows:mad:

[Jeff-E]

Worst Retcon of all time... T-Ray is really Wade Wilson, and Deadpool is some schmuck named "Jack"... Seriously WHAT THE FUNK?

[Dark Soul # 7]

Worst Retcon of all time... T-Ray is really Wade Wilson, and Deadpool is some schmuck named "Jack"... Seriously WHAT THE FUNK?Wha??????????????:confused:

[darkhawk76]

1) Black Widow's memories (thrown off a roof into Ivan's arms as a baby during WW2, being a ballerina, being the only Black Widow until Yelena showed up) were implanted. She was a test subject, along with a lot of other Widows in training.
2) She was/is controlled/manipulated by pharmcuticals, which make her subserviant to Nick Fury.
3) Oh yeah, and that her dead husband, the Red Guardian is still alive (which, after all of this "new origin" crap for her, isn't he an implanted memory, too?).

how can that even work when UX-M 268 is considered cannon for Cap & Wolverine - did they imagine Natasha being there :confused: :confused:

anyway my least fav retcon if Norman & Gwen sleeping together, doesn't fit for me

[Deadpooligan]

Worst Retcon of all time... T-Ray is really Wade Wilson, and Deadpool is some schmuck named "Jack"... Seriously WHAT THE FUNK?

That's still subject to debate. Deadpool retains memory of his former life, T-Ray could have just been effing with him really badly, OR he was an albino zombie brought back to life near the Wilson's home, and he tried to assimilate Wade's memories.

You'll notice when T-Ray actually recieved all of Deadpool's personality and memory through a thing called a Gemini Star, his brain sort of... stopped. He's lobotomized now. That's Deadpool #64.

Noone still knows why he wore that band-aid. We may never again...

[Lanowar]

Worse Retcons... 616 wise

- Xorneto for sure that just confuses the hell out of me always

- Norman Osborn and Gwen Stacy having children

Ultimate Universe

- Hammerhead suddenly not being dead after his head exploded and not explaining it

- General Ross suddenly not being dead and not explaining it outside the "get your hand away from my vitals" comment.

[PastePotPete]

Great writers (and bad ones) are always going to mess with continuity so that they can bring their own vision to a book. The question is: is the story they tell with the revised continuity worth the changes that they make to the characters?

I think it's wrong to play the back-issues game: "Umm, Mr. Bendis? That could never have happened because in Avengers West Coast #41 Tigra is clearly affected by Psycho Man's Emoto-Ray, which would have rendered her impervious to future control by Purple Man in your recent storyline." These types of arguments assume that the events you speak of actually happened. But they didn't. This is a fictional universe. The writers make the rules.

If the current storyline is good, I'll forgive any retcon the writer had to make to set up that storyline.

I loved Xorneto! The whole Morrison run was fun! It was different! It took the characters in new directions! Did the Magneto/Xorn thing make total sense in a rigid linear "this is canon" continuity type way? Probably not. But few things in comics do if you look at them very closely.

Oh, and I'm not one of those who thinks Morrison is a God. Just a minor deity. :p

[Tommy]

I loved Xorneto! The whole Morrison run was fun! It was different! It took the characters in new directions! Did the Magneto/Xorn thing make total sense in a rigid linear "this is canon" continuity type way? Probably not. But few things in comics do if you look at them very closely.
Morrison himself only used one retcon that I can think of, and that was Cassandra Nova. Which the way he presented it worked. (Well he also had sublime, but that more started up at the start of his story.)

Now the slew of retcons that happened after Morrison left to, more or less, negate Morrison's run is the problem. Magneto is NOT Xorn. Magneto is alive and on Genosha allong with some other people. Xorn has a twin brother. Xorn is some energy thing try to be Magneto. It is a total mess.

[DDM]

That's more of the worst use of selective continuity then a retcon.

Bendis retconned the Scarlet Witch into a reality warping mutant a la Proteus; furthermore, out of the blue with no foreshadowing or subplots, Wanda is suddenly insane & has always been according to Brian Michael Bendis. Looking at the evidence, Bendis' "insanity defense" really does not hold water. Why? Wanda's insanity has long been resolved in 1990 by Roy Thomas' West Coast Avengers & further explained in Kurt Busiek's Avengers Forever #1-12.

Wanda's "insanity" & reality warping powers is a retcon since all of it is resolved. The Scarlet Witch is Bendis' pet deus ex machina to fill in the massive plot holes for his stories in Avengers Disassembled & House of M.

[Mariah]

Wanda's been a lot of people's deus ex machina for a long time. Not defending Bendis, cause I think most of his Avengers work sucks, just saying.

[david r]

1) There was also the retcon which said that Doctor Strange was the bridge that held the Universe together. Upon learning of this news, Doctor Doom attempted to kill Dr. Strange and so destabilize the universe that he could take control.

2) Reed Richards learned of Doom's plans and sacrificed Sue, his wife, to Doom's clutches to pacify him. We then learned that Doctor Doom and Reed Richards are brothers. Separated by gypsies during World War II.

3) Namor and the legions of Atlantis invaded Latveria to rescue Sue. Once Doom was defeated, we then learned that Franklin Richards was really the offspring of Sue and Namor. Hence, the blonde hair.

[Evan Lanctot]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned Spider-Man: Chapter One yet. One of the most glaring misfires in Marvel history. It wasn't broken, yet they had to try to fix it, resulting in way more mishandled Marvel history. UGH!:eek:

[hmnut73]

2) Death of Aunt May in Amazing Spider-Man #400 - To me this was one of the most touching Spidey story, especially the last few panels when Aunt May told Peter she knew of her identity all along... All of this was wiped away with some lame excuse... No, nobody even remembers the issue.



I consider that the worst recon I have ever had the displeasure to read. I literally stopped reading Spider-Man after the issue where Aunt May comes back.

[DDM]

Ben Reilly is really the one & only amazing Spider-Man. With this sudden revelation, I dropped Spider-Man in 1993, although I did purchase the Dan Jurgans Ben Reilly Spider-Man book in 1994 out of curiousity. It did not hold my interest beyond issue #1. I have not been reading Spider-Man since the awful Clone Saga.

[Laminator_X]

Cables name. Scott and Maddie's babie was named "Christopher," after Cyclops's father, not "Nathan Christopher." The only time the baby was called "Nathan" was by Maddie when she had gone evil. In order to torment Scott further, she was going to name their son after the bully who had tormented Scott at the orphanage.

The Aunt May one is a worse retcon, but I still can't get over that nobody remembered the character's name.

[davros42]

Oh god, so many...


X-Men:
Xorneto, Vulcan, every time Professor X has died and come back... Every time Jean Grey has died and come back... Everytime Magneto has died and come back... Magneto's orgins. (He's Erik Lensherr... No he isn't! Yes he is! No he isn't!)

Spider-Man:
The clones. Norman Osbourne's alive... Gwen Stacy's alive... Aunt May is alive...

Fantastic Four:
Valeria.

This thread:
Retconning the word retcon into recon.

Best retcon:
Bucky lives. Daring, risky, could have been so much crap, but actually works.

[Cephus]

This is a fictional universe. The writers make the rules.

Nope, sorry. This is an ongoing universe, fictional or not. If the writers want to make their own rules, they can go create their own characters and write their own stories. The whole point of having a shared universe is the fact that everyone is bound to respect what has come before. Otherwise, what's to stop one writer from deciding that Peter Parker wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider, he was possessed by a spider god? And the next guy decides it was Aunt May that died, not Uncle Ben? Why bother reading an ongoing story at all?

[jj9126]

A lot of good ones in this thread. This one has always irked me (but not necessarily the "worst"):

Fantastic Four #350 (written/drawn by Walt Simonson) - Dr. Doom and his entire army are taken down in the first few pages by...Dr. Doom. It's revealed the Doom who has been terrorizing the Marvel Universe for many years is a bot. The Real Doctor Doom has been in space the whole time. Now he's back and really pissed off.

As lame as it sounds - it was actually pretty damned cool. Doom was instantly made an SCARY bastard once more (after years of ridiculous plots involving mind-swaps with kids, etc) and the circumstances of his return/disapperance were pretty intriguing. I also loved his new armor, which suggested that he may have encountered some advanced technology in his time away.

Of course, the whole thing was retconned in a FF annual (as a joke) years later and never properly resolved. Bastards.

[DDM]

Cables name. Scott and Maddie's babie was named "Christopher," after Cyclops's father, not "Nathan Christopher." The only time the baby was called "Nathan" was by Maddie when she had gone evil. In order to torment Scott further, she was going to name their son after the bully who had tormented Scott at the orphanage.

The Aunt May one is a worse retcon, but I still can't get over that nobody remembered the character's name.

I believe Madelyne called their son Nathan long before she was the evil Goblin Queen. The bully Nathan is really Mister Sinister who programmed Madelyne to name their child after himself, although Madelyne did not know it at the time. Madelyne & Scott's child full name is Nathan Christopher Charles Summers.

When Scott walked out on his baby son & Madelyne, I say Madelyne has every right to call her baby whatever name she wishes.

[DDM]

The retcon which reveals Jean Grey never became Phoenix, but Phoenix became a Jean Grey clone circa The Avengers #263 & Fantastic Four #286; Marvel did not have the longview of Jean's resurrection since she would reclaim the name Phoenix in The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #1-4, further convoluting the Phoenix story beyond revognition. Jean Grey's resurrection only works as Marvel Girl keeping Phoenix separate from Jean Grey. The Jean Grey/Phoenix story is too much of a mess right now that adding anything further to the character just makes the knot tighter. The damage is also done to the character developments of Rachel Summers, Phoenix II & Madelyne Pryor.

[Anodyne]

Cables name. Scott and Maddie's babie was named "Christopher," after Cyclops's father, not "Nathan Christopher." The only time the baby was called "Nathan" was by Maddie when she had gone evil. In order to torment Scott further, she was going to name their son after the bully who had tormented Scott at the orphanage.

The Aunt May one is a worse retcon, but I still can't get over that nobody remembered the character's name.
IIRC, until Mr. Sinister called him "Nathan Christopher Charles Summers" in Uncanny #239, Scott and Maddie's baby's name had never been mentioned at all; I dimly recall a letter asking if he was always going to be known as just "Maddie's baby." Sinister said he was "named for his grandfathers--powerful men all." I see no reason not to assume that, at that time, Madelyne honestly believed she was the daughter of a man named Nathan.

[Frodo-X]

This thread: Retconning the word retcon into recon.

Funniest post I've read since I started coming here.

[creep]

The Hobgoblin isn't Ned Leeds but some minor character who hadn't appeared in a comic in over ten years. Yeah, I know that's who it was supposed to be from the start but how was it worth it to bring the whole thing up again?

Peter Parker's parents retconned back to life and made members of Spider-Man's supporting cast for several months.

Peter Parker's parents re-retconned as still dead, when Peter finds out killer andriods have been posing as his parents all this time, which the Chameleon had created in the loose hope that Peter might know who Spider-Man really is.

Norman Osborn gets better, despite big hole through upper body, fakes death, goes on to master engineer the clone saga and every other bad thing to happen to Spidey, ever. All just because.

Again, with Norman, whatever that conspiracy crap he was going on about during Mark Millar's Spider-Man run was.

Warren Ellis's retconning of Captain Marvel's/Pulsar's entire personality to suit his own purposes, instead of just creating a new character.

[paolo2142]

surprised no one has mentioned secret wars to me this is one of the greatest retcons of all time.Affter a pretty good 1st series where they introduce this awesome godlike character the Beyonder who is the most powerful being in the history of the multiverse.Then in series 2 when he enters our universe he is constantly described as the most powerful being ever encountered not only by the likes of reed richards and doctor strange who descrbes his power as unbelievable in Doctor strange 74,in fact the exact quote goes something like "Doctor strange master of the mystic arts,doctor strange who has stoon unafraid before eternity himself recoils in shock "when he senses the Beyonder's power.The silver surfer in avengers 266 describes the beyonder as dwarfing galactus in power,and what about him trashing the celestials,destroying death itself when all the other powers in multiverse combined couldn't.Also the writer constantly describes him as having millions of times more power than anything else ij.the multiverse.Then in an amazing u-turn in fantastic four 319 we find it is all a lie and he is not even as powerful as a normal cosmic cube and the likes of eternity and the celestials are way above him,what a pile of S***.

[Lorendiac]

A long time ago I listed what I thought were the 5 Worst Retcons of Marvel's history. Here are the ones I mentioned at the time -- and several have already been mentioned as pet peeves of other people in this thread, I notice. :)

1. The revelation that it wasn't really Jean Grey in the Dark Phoenix Saga, no matter what Uatu the Watcher said at the time.

2. The return of Norman Osborn.

3. Revealing, several years after the wedding, that Johnny Storm had actually spent all that time married to a Skrull named Lyja - instead of Alicia Masters, as he (and his teammates, and his fans) had firmly believed.

4. The return of Ben Reilly the Spider-Clone who had been declared dead by Peter in the mid-70s and then dumped down a smokestack.

5. The revelation that Madelyne Pryor was actually a clone of Jean's, except that brilliant geneticists Charles Xavier and Moira MacTaggert had implicitly never taken the trouble to do a DNA test to nail that point down one way or the other after Maddie met the X-Men and they were struck by her incredible resemblance to Jean.

Those were the ones I listed about a year and a half ago. In addition, I'd like to add the following:

6. The introduction of the whole Psylocke/Betsy/Revanche/Kwannon thing. I was reading the "X-Men" title when that was first "explained" to us, and it so happens that just a few months ago I reread that material, and it's still completely unnecessary.

7. "Sins Past." Speaking of which, I suddenly remember that I have owned the issues of the "Sins Remembered" sequel for at least a year now, and never worked up the nerve to read them yet! Should I? (And if I do read it, will I be inspired to do a scathing "Mad Magazine-style parody" of it the way I did with JMS's "Sins Past"?)

8. "Captain America #186." Retconning Sam Wilson, the Falcon, from a clean-living African-American social worker who pulled himself up by his own bootstraps, into a criminal previously called "Snap" Wilson who used to wear a pimp suit until it amused the Red Skull to use the Cosmic Cube to implant some false memories so that Sam Wilson would seem like a nice guy who would become Cap's friend and partner until such time as the Skull saw fit to stir up his original memories again.

9. I'll go along with the idea that John Byrne's retcon of Lockjaw as "a regular Inhuman who simply looks like a big dog" was a lousy idea. (And I liked Peter David's retcon of the retcon, showing how gullible Ben Grimm was to a practical joke pulled on him by real Inhumans.)

Note: I still have not read any of the "House of M" material, nor "Deadly Genesis," nor the story arc that brought back the original Bucky . . . so it wouldn't really be fair for me to put anything related to those subjects on my list when I haven't even given them a fair chance to "impress" me yet.

[Joe Acro]

The worst retcons are in Sins Past and Avengers Disassembled. Those have already been mentioned. Those tie for first. Morrison's run on the X-Men comes in third. Rouding out the rest of the list are several things that have mentioned, such as that Lockjaw debocle and Norman Osborn living again, and one I hate where the symbiote is supposedly "permanently" stuck to someone and then somehow gets off, assuming that can be considered a retcon.

[Stephane Garrelie]

1) There was also the retcon which said that Doctor Strange was the bridge that held the Universe together. Upon learning of this news, Doctor Doom attempted to kill Dr. Strange and so destabilize the universe that he could take control.

2) Reed Richards learned of Doom's plans and sacrificed Sue, his wife, to Doom's clutches to pacify him. We then learned that Doctor Doom and Reed Richards are brothers. Separated by gypsies during World War II.

3) Namor and the legions of Atlantis invaded Latveria to rescue Sue. Once Doom was defeated, we then learned that Franklin Richards was really the offspring of Sue and Namor. Hence, the blonde hair.???huh?
Something you imagine or was it really published?

[Laminator_X]

IIRC, until Mr. Sinister called him "Nathan Christopher Charles Summers" in Uncanny #239, Scott and Maddie's baby's name had never been mentioned at all; I dimly recall a letter asking if he was always going to be known as just "Maddie's baby." Sinister said he was "named for his grandfathers--powerful men all." I see no reason not to assume that, at that time, Madelyne honestly believed she was the daughter of a man named Nathan.

I thought Sinister was referring figuratively to himself, Nathaniel Essex, as the powerful "grandfather" in question.

I remember the exchange about the bully fairly vividly, but sold my copies of the Inferno issues back during the speculative runup before the late 90's crash.

Does anyone have the issues in question to check this?

[DDM]

I thought Sinister was referring figuratively to himself, Nathaniel Essex, as the powerful "grandfather" in question.

I remember the exchange about the bully fairly vividly, but sold my copies of the Inferno issues back during the speculative runup before the late 90's crash.

Does anyone have the issues in question to check this?

Classic X-Men #41-42 is meant to be Nathan, the future Mister Sinister.

[Young Avenger]

Bendis retconned the Scarlet Witch into a reality warping mutant a la Proteus; furthermore, out of the blue with no foreshadowing or subplots, Wanda is suddenly insane & has always been according to Brian Michael Bendis. Looking at the evidence, Bendis' "insanity defense" really does not hold water. Why? Wanda's insanity has long been resolved in 1990 by Roy Thomas' West Coast Avengers & further explained in Kurt Busiek's Avengers Forever #1-12.

Wanda's "insanity" & reality warping powers is a retcon since all of it is resolved. The Scarlet Witch is Bendis' pet deus ex machina to fill in the massive plot holes for his stories in Avengers Disassembled & House of M.

I'll give you the reality warping powers but not the insanity. You can't cure mental illness. That's always with you no matter what.

[Lorendiac]

I'll give you the reality warping powers but not the insanity. You can't cure mental illness. That's always with you no matter what.

I think that's too sweeping a comment. I'm no expert in psychology or psychiatry, but I suspect there are some forms of "mental illness" that a person can put behind him once and for all. (Of course, we might need to work out a definition of exactly what is meant by "mental illness" first, before we can agree on whether some types are "curable.")

And remember: We're talking about the Marvel Universe here! Doctor Strange can cast a spell on your mind. Professor X can root through your memories telepathically and figure out which ones caused the most trauma for you, and help untangle all that from the inside. Extraterrestrial civilizations such as the Shi'ar may have medical techniques that go far beyond anything that modern medicine in the real world can provide. So there might be all sorts of "real cures" for various types of mental illnesses in the MU that we simply can't duplicate in real life -- yet!

[kel25]

So many choices it's not funny. One of the worst is Deadpool is not Wade Wilson but I'm with the group that thinks later this retcon was reverted.

Pretty much anything to do with Xorn. I liked this character, except the star brain, a lot when he was introduced. Everything that’s happened since that horrid story has permanently ruined this character for me. Even in AoA Xorn was someone in disguise.

Another big one is character resurrection. Any of them! Seriously why cant the dead stay dead?

[Lorendiac]

Another big one is character resurrection. Any of them! Seriously why cant the dead stay dead?

The most popular theory seems to be that the answer to your question is: Money!

A long time ago I posted the following sample conversation in an editor's office:

*****

EDITOR: I had just a brilliant idea! Let's do a story arc in which we kill off Character X!

ASSISTANT EDITOR: You realize this will make lots of fans angry, losing such an interesting supporting character from the monthly books of Team Y?

EDITOR: Don't be silly! The fans always complain because we DON'T really "change" anything, so now we'll make them happy by changing things permanently!

[A few years later, we have:]

EDITOR: That's funny. According to my sales figures spreadsheet, Character X hasn't been making much money for us lately. Why not?

ASSISTANT EDITOR: Probably because we killed him off three years ago. Remember? By now, anybody who actually cared about him has already bought a copy of the trade paperback collecting the story of his tragic death. So now we can't do anything with him.

EDITOR (honestly shocked): Are you saying that now he isn't making money for the company anymore? Even though there are still fans who would pay good money to see him again? I never dreamed such an evil situation would arise! We're letting a perfectly good character sit around doing nothing when he could be earning his keep by flexing his muscles on the covers of new comics! Why did you decide to kill him off in the first place, you moron? Did you give the writer the go-ahead when I was away on vacation or something? Do I have to do all the thinking around here? Get the writers of the Team Y books on the phone in a conference call! I'm going to explain to them that it's time to bring Character X back to life! Then we can collect that story arc as a trade paperback too!

[BeastieRunner]

Spider-man: Sins Past -- the whole thing.

Avengers: Disassembled -- The Scarlet Witch fiasco (crazy, kids, etc.)
X-men: Jean Grey comes back to life for the nth time.
Hulk: Abomination's origin changed and the two wives named Nadia, etc.
Cosmic: Quasar comes back to life for the nth time.
That's about it for ones that bug me the most.

[DDM]

Another big one is character resurrection. Any of them! Seriously why cant the dead stay dead?

Wonder Man was killed The Avengers #9 originally because DC Comics did not want him to be confused with DC's Wonder Woman. In the 70's, Marvel decided that there is no way to confuse Wonder Man to DC's Wonder Woman so the editors brought Simon back to life in The Avengers #151. In this case, it's editorial politics. Wonder Man became a full fledged Avenger & Beast's best friend outside the X-Men. He also served in The West Coast Avengers & the ill-fated Force Works to be killed again. Simon could be again with some creative writing by Kurt Busiek in The Avengers (volume 3) via the Scarlet Witch probability powers.

[Babylon23]

I missed some of that, I didn't know she regained her memory of the event. Sorry, my bad. However she has always struck me as a character who is slightly off in the head... or maybe I'm just trying to make excuses, I don't know. I guess since I didn't know that and I'm one of the few who did like disassembled I just felt the need to try and defend it.

It's all good. I've been a Wanda fan for 25 years, so when a read a story like Disassembled that contradicts a big chunk of her history, I get annoyed. If Disassembled had occurred shortly after Byrne's WCA, I wouldn't have this problem.

[Kurt Busiek]

Wonder Man was killed The Avengers #9 originally because DC Comics did not want him to be confused with DC's Wonder Woman. In the 70's, Marvel decided that there is no way to confuse Wonder Man to DC's Wonder Woman so the editors brought Simon back to life in The Avengers #151.

More to the point, DC introduced Power Girl, while Marvel was publishing POWER MAN.

Marvel objected, reminding DC that they'd gotten rid of Wonder Man when DC was concerned about name similarity, and DC refused to do anything about it.

So Marvel brought back Wonder Man as a response; if DC wasn't going to accomodate them, they didn't see why they should accomodate DC.

Worked out pretty well for the fans -- both Wonder Man and Power Girl are good characters.

kdb

[david r]

???huh?
Something you imagine or was it really published?

;) ;)

Was making a silly.

[Kid Monster]

I think it's wrong to play the back-issues game: "Umm, Mr. Bendis? That could never have happened because in Avengers West Coast #41 Tigra is clearly affected by Psycho Man's Emoto-Ray, which would have rendered her impervious to future control by Purple Man in your recent storyline." These types of arguments assume that the events you speak of actually happened. But they didn't. This is a fictional universe. The writers make the rules.


Thank you, I agree wholeheartedly.

The Marvel Universe has become such a complex, convoluted mess that I can't imagine anything remotely interesting being written without contradicting something. The Ultimates line has very tight line editing and a very limited number of titles each month... and even it occasionally has continuity errors. The best stories get remembered and become "cannon", the rest just sort of fade into limbo... where they belong. This is just the reality of doing dozens of comics each month for over forty years and having them all take place in the same universe.

I remember when the first issue of Bendis' New Avengers came out, and there was this guy at the local comics shop who was foaming at the mouth over the fact that a very obscure old 70's villain, featured in the back row of a crowd scene during a prision break, had actually been killed in some forgotten Ghost Rider Annual or something back in the mid-90's, a fact apparently unknown to Mr. Bendis and his editors. He took it as a personal insult that New Avengers was being written by someone who didn't "care" as much about Marvel history as he did... That one guy in the back row robbed him of deriving any fun from the comic, just seething anger.

I felt sorry for the guy... talk about missing the point of comics.

[Stephane Garrelie]

;) ;)

Was making a silly.
With Joe Q & JMS you never know.
They're able to do that. Don't gave ideas.

[Elegance Liberty]

I remember when the first issue of Bendis' New Avengers came out, and there was this guy at the local comics shop who was foaming at the mouth over the fact that a very obscure old 70's villain, featured in the back row of a crowd scene during a prision break, had actually been killed in some forgotten Ghost Rider Annual or something back in the mid-90's, a fact apparently unknown to Mr. Bendis and his editors. He took it as a personal insult that New Avengers was being written by someone who didn't "care" as much about Marvel history as he did... That one guy in the back row robbed him of deriving any fun from the comic, just seething anger.

I felt sorry for the guy... talk about missing the point of comics.

... You're KIDDING me.

[Jolly Mon]

More to the point, DC introduced Power Girl, while Marvel was publishing POWER MAN.

Marvel objected, reminding DC that they'd gotten rid of Wonder Man when DC was concerned about name similarity, and DC refused to do anything about it.

So Marvel brought back Wonder Man as a response; if DC wasn't going to accomodate them, they didn't see why they should accomodate DC.

Worked out pretty well for the fans -- both Wonder Man and Power Girl are good characters.

kdb
Not saying you're wrong, but Wonder Man was introduced and killed in the same issue Avengers #9. How did DC have a chance to object unless they knew about it in advance?

[Jolly Mon]

Thank you, I agree wholeheartedly.

The Marvel Universe has become such a complex, convoluted mess that I can't imagine anything remotely interesting being written without contradicting something. The Ultimates line has very tight line editing and a very limited number of titles each month... and even it occasionally has continuity errors. The best stories get remembered and become "cannon", the rest just sort of fade into limbo... where they belong. This is just the reality of doing dozens of comics each month for over forty years and having them all take place in the same universe.

I remember when the first issue of Bendis' New Avengers came out, and there was this guy at the local comics shop who was foaming at the mouth over the fact that a very obscure old 70's villain, featured in the back row of a crowd scene during a prision break, had actually been killed in some forgotten Ghost Rider Annual or something back in the mid-90's, a fact apparently unknown to Mr. Bendis and his editors. He took it as a personal insult that New Avengers was being written by someone who didn't "care" as much about Marvel history as he did... That one guy in the back row robbed him of deriving any fun from the comic, just seething anger.

I felt sorry for the guy... talk about missing the point of comics.
This kind of guy (who goes berserk about one minor character in a crowd scene) makes the people who object to writers twisting a character's whole past history look bad.

[Tommy]

Nope, sorry. This is an ongoing universe, fictional or not. If the writers want to make their own rules, they can go create their own characters and write their own stories. The whole point of having a shared universe is the fact that everyone is bound to respect what has come before. Otherwise, what's to stop one writer from deciding that Peter Parker wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider, he was possessed by a spider god? And the next guy decides it was Aunt May that died, not Uncle Ben? Why bother reading an ongoing story at all?
You should take that up with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Shame them!

[Expletive Deleted]

The ones that I subjectively dislike.

I mean, duh.

[heretic]

What recons in Marvel comics just left you going what the hell was that?
The Rebirth of Jean Grey.

There have been a lot of (very) bad storylines, but this is a True Retcon that did a _vast_ amount of long-term damage.

The ones about Betsy and Emma were more painful for the chars, but less insane.

HTG

[heretic]

I am still confused about the Xorneto's brother wrecked NY thing.
Let us just say that the whole backtracking on the Magnus-as-Zorn thing was one of the best retcons and leave it at that.

HTG

[Tommy]

Let us just say that the whole backtracking on the Magnus-as-Zorn thing was one of the best retcons and leave it at that.
Nope. That was horrific merger of butchering, uncomprehending, unnecessary explanation, poor planning, multiple writers attempting correction. It was far worse than leaving him dead or just saying, "Wanda brought him back."

Oh what a tangled web we weave.

[Kurt Busiek]

Not saying you're wrong, but Wonder Man was introduced and killed in the same issue Avengers #9. How did DC have a chance to object unless they knew about it in advance?

As I understand it, DC objected and were told, "Don't worry, we won't bring him back," even though the issue was popular enough to justify it.

kdb

[Tommy]

As I understand it, DC objected and were told, "Don't worry, we won't bring him back," even though the issue was popular enough to justify it.

kdb
That is awfully mean. What other mean things have they done to each other?

[Joe Acro]

Nope, sorry. This is an ongoing universe, fictional or not. If the writers want to make their own rules, they can go create their own characters and write their own stories. The whole point of having a shared universe is the fact that everyone is bound to respect what has come before.I treat it logically. Assume for the moment that you just experience some big, [insert adjective related to emotion here] event. After a couple of years of remembering something, your memory changes. Everyone else who was there has their memory change. No one remembers it like it was. Does this happen? No. Do people just get willy-nilly resurrected whenever? No. That why there are things in comics so far beyond what we know is real. There are magic-users and cosmic entities. So, if you suddenly remembered something different, but knew something was wrong (like Peter Parker in Perfect World), wouldn't you like to figure out what happened? These things don't just happen. Events don't just change. Time doesn't allow that kind of thing. You'd have to find the explanation. And, if you're in comics, it's going to involve something never before discovered or known about within reality.

[Tommy]

You'd have to find the explanation.
And if the explanation is a CRAPPY story (as almost all explanations are) that leads to another crappy story explaining the explanation... which leads to a giant universe wide reboot, is it a good thing?

Or should people take Stan and Jack's root and say "lets just tell a good story and to hell with continuity."

[DDM]

That is awfully mean. What other mean things have they done to each other?

Marvel has the copyright/trademark to Captain Marvel; therefore, DC must use The Powers of Shazam for their Captain Marvel characters.

[Joe Acro]

And if the explanation is a CRAPPY story (as almost all explanations are) that leads to another crappy story explaining the explanation... which leads to a giant universe wide reboot, is it a good thing?

Or should people take Stan and Jack's root and say "lets just tell a good story and to hell with continuity."
First of all, a good writer won't make it a crappy explanation.

Second, a giant unvierse reboot is the lame way out, like saying the main character woke up from a dream.

Third, and finally, Stan and Jack kept continuity straight. Mags didn't contradict things, largely because Stan was either writing or overseeing every comic.

[curefreak]

having dark beast "create" the morlocks has always chapped my hide,
i dont understand why they changed what was such a great concept of ugly rejected mutants living in the sewars to basically an offspring of a mad scientist.

maybe if i actually saw it used it would make more sense to me but otherwise its just a pointless retcon.

[Lorendiac]

Nope, sorry. This is an ongoing universe, fictional or not. If the writers want to make their own rules, they can go create their own characters and write their own stories. The whole point of having a shared universe is the fact that everyone is bound to respect what has come before.

As I understood Mark Waid's Hypertime concept for the DCU, it could be interpreted something like this:

"The whole point of having a shared universe is that every writer should respect anything that has come before if he happens to feel like it. If he doesn't, then he can blatantly contradict it, while muttering 'Hypertime!' as his 'Get Out of Jail Free Card' to explain that yes, the previous story 'still happened,' and yes, his new and wildly contradictory story 'also happened,' and the way those different timelines keep crashing into each other and then separating again is the reason that these crazy things happen!"

DC has thrown out "Hypertime" as the name of the excuse for one writer deliberately or accidentally contradicting another writer's work. Now the "Get Out of Jail Free Card" is called "Superboy-Prime's Retcon Punch!" But it amounts to the same thing.

In another five or ten years, DC will invent yet another reason for why writers continue to not feel bound to respect what has been done before with the same characters. And then another excuse after that, and then another excuse after that! Isn't it inspiring? :)

[Cosmic Book Fan]

X-Men Deadly Genesis
Beyonder is half a cosmic cube
Bucky never died
Fantastic Four First Family

I had some others, can't think of them now.
But as far as I'm concerned, no matter how good any of the stories that came out of these retcons were, it's not worth messing with continuity.

[Anodyne]

I thought Sinister was referring figuratively to himself, Nathaniel Essex, as the powerful "grandfather" in question.
I was referring to Madelyne's possible belief when she and Scott named their son. At that time, she didn't know about Mr. Sinister or the clone story; she could have had an implanted memory of a father named Nathan.

[Omega Alpha]

1- Gwen Stacy, the whore. WTF was that all about?:mad:
2- Jean was never the Phoenix, the one we saw die is someone else. Screwed up everything until this day.
3- Psylocke/Betsy/Kwannon- To be honest, i think that Nicienza only came with that because he did not know how to solve the Jean/Scott/Betsy triangle, and invented that it was Kwannon that made Betsy flirt so heavily with Cyke so he could make way to Scott and Jean's marriage.

[Golon9977]

First of all, a good writer won't make it a crappy explanation.

Thats a matter of opinion. See Colossus resurrection.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

3) Namor and the legions of Atlantis invaded Latveria to rescue Sue. Once Doom was defeated, we then learned that Franklin Richards was really the offspring of Sue and Namor. Hence, the blonde hair.


umm Sue has blonde hair. Namor does not. & why no wings on Frankie's feet?
(well ankles)

[Patient Boy]

Peter Parker's parents retconned back to life and made members of Spider-Man's supporting cast for several months.

Peter Parker's parents re-retconned as still dead, when Peter finds out killer andriods have been posing as his parents all this time, which the Chameleon had created in the loose hope that Peter might know who Spider-Man really is.

I'm not a terribly big fan of this storyline, but I think that the "re-retcon" shouldn't be considered one since the whole "are they or are they not his parents?" angle was part of the story since the beginning.

Although I guess nobody thought they'd bring back Bucky or Jason Todd either. Hmm.

[DDM]

3- Psylocke/Betsy/Kwannon- To be honest, i think that Nicienza only came with that because he did not know how to solve the Jean/Scott/Betsy triangle, and invented that it was Kwannon that made Betsy flirt so heavily with Cyke so he could make way to Scott and Jean's marriage.

Fabien said he never read Uncanny X-Men #256 in which Psylocke transforms into Lady Mandarin. Given how important the story is, the Psylocke origin should have been postponed; unfortunately, it was not postponed.

I'm just glad Fabien did not write Lady Deathstrike's origin about hjow she contacted Spiral to become a cyborg. I can see it now: Spiral merges Deathstrike with an adamantium cadillac! :rolleyes:

[Tommy]

First of all, a good writer won't make it a crappy explanation.
Tell that to the LARGE number of writers who attempted to explain the fall out from Crisis. *cough* Power Girl *cough*

Or tell that to Roy Thomas's Invaders Annual 1 (one of the WORST comics ever written).

Second, a giant unvierse reboot is the lame way out, like saying the main character woke up from a dream.
I agree. Ignoring bad old continuity is the way to go. But if you are going to force continuity cops, then it is the only choice.

Third, and finally, Stan and Jack kept continuity straight. Mags didn't contradict things, largely because Stan was either writing or overseeing every comic.
I suggest you take a close look at Captain America. He was active in the fifties until Stand and Jack decided that he "died" in World War II. Later writers sought to bring into continuity those stories they deliberately left out. And personally I think all the explanations of who Bucky and Captain America were in the 50's were really crappy.

Secondly if I might quote from the letters page about issue 16 of Avengers "you had best start to co-ordinate your stories. When Giant Man made his new helmet in his own mag, he had his old helmet in the Avengers."

I also find it distasteful that certain people's views on what constitutes "respect" for a different writer and artist is cult like adherence to every thing in it. Personally I find ret-cons EXTREAMLY disrespectful. To go back and basically rewrite someone else's story is far less respectful than contradicting it.

I find it doubtful that Jack Kirby of the 60's disrespected his own stories.

[Kevinroc]

Marvel has the copyright/trademark to Captain Marvel; therefore, DC must use The Powers of Shazam for their Captain Marvel characters.

That's not specifically Marvel being mean to DC.

DC (or National, as they were known at the time) sued Fawcett because they thought Captain Marvel was infringing on Superman. Fawcett eventually ceased publication of Captain Marvel. DC eventually licensed the Captain Marvel characters in the 1970s (and aquired all rights to the Captain Marvel characters over the years). But by that time, Marvel had already introduced their own Captain Marvel (who was introduced around 1967).

I don't think Marvel did anything wrong in that situation.

[Joe Acro]

Tell that to the LARGE number of writers who attempted to explain the fall out from Crisis. *cough* Power Girl *cough*Infinite Crisis was bad. Hence, like trying to explain why the Scarlet Witch went crazy, any explanation will suck.

Or tell that to Roy Thomas's Invaders Annual 1 (one of the WORST comics ever written).Did it retcon something?

I suggest you take a close look at Captain America. He was active in the fifties until Stand and Jack decided that he "died" in World War II. Later writers sought to bring into continuity those stories they deliberately left out. And personally I think all the explanations of who Bucky and Captain America were in the 50's were really crappy.
I think it's safe to assume Lee and Kirby felt that the after-WWII stories didn't happen within their Marvel Universe.

Secondly if I might quote from the letters page about issue 16 of Avengers "you had best start to co-ordinate your stories. When Giant Man made his new helmet in his own mag, he had his old helmet in the Avengers."Did the two stories happen at the same time? Doubtful. Did Avengers happen after the other incident?

Thats a matter of opinion. See Colossus resurrection.That's not a crappy explanation. That's a lack of explanation.

[Max]

1) Black Widow's memories (thrown off a roof into Ivan's arms as a baby during WW2, being a ballerina, being the only Black Widow until Yelena showed up) were implanted. She was a test subject, along with a lot of other Widows in training.
2) She was/is controlled/manipulated by pharmcuticals, which make her subserviant to Nick Fury.
3) Oh yeah, and that her dead husband, the Red Guardian is still alive (which, after all of this "new origin" crap for her, isn't he an implanted memory, too?).

If you are referring to the Black Widow minis that Morgan wrote I am not so sure that these are in continuity. I can't provide a link, but I read an article during the second mini that they were not. Of course things may have changed.

Anyone else on this mater?

[Kid Monster]

Or tell that to Roy Thomas's Invaders Annual 1 (one of the WORST comics ever written).


OK, I'll bite...

Being that Roy Thomas is generally respected as one of the better writers of the late Silver Age, just what is it about Invaders Annual #1 that makes it "One of the WORST comics ever wriitten".

Just curious. I have not read the comic in question.

[curefreak]

why am i the only one who finds the dark beast created the morlocks retcon to be one of the most ludacris?
i must admit to finding jean come back to life one of the better comic books even tho the whole cosmic thing was a whole hard pill to swallow.

[Tommy]

OK, I'll bite...

Being that Roy Thomas is generally respected as one of the better writers of the late Silver Age, just what is it about Invaders Annual #1 that makes it "One of the WORST comics ever wriitten".

Just curious. I have not read the comic in question.
I don't think I could tell the story better than the guy who told me...

Invaders Annual #1. What makes this Roy Thomas-penned tale sink below "mediocre"? Why can it not simply be excused as being "of its time"? Two things:

1) The whole story is Roy at his most "Kontinuity King" frightening. It seems, back when he wrote Avengers #71, that he and Sal Buscema got a couple things wrong, costume-wise. That story involved then-modern-day Avengers Vision, Black Panther, and Yellowjacket being plunged back in time to 1942, and battling that era's Cap, Namor, and Torch. To make it apparent that these were the WWII versions of the character, Roy had Sal draw Cap with a triangular shield and Namor with black trunks.

Except... Roy later discovered that that wasn't what those guys were wearing in 1942! They abandoned those duds in 1941! *GASP!*

Roy apparently spent years stewing over it, because in Invaders Annual #1, the entire story revolves around WHY CAP AND NAMOR HAD THE WRONG CRAP IN AVENGERS #71!

I swear -- between 1969 and 1977, the halls of Marvel must've resounded with the squeak-squeak-squeak of Roy Thomas' clenched buttocks.

2) You would think, having spent eight years waking up from feverish nightmares of Getting It Wrong, as Thomas undoubtedly experienced, you would have a humdinger of a tale ready and waiting when the time came to rectify matters. I mean, this is ROY THOMAS, not some flyweight intern writing a fill-in issue. Alas. The book begins with each Invader, on a solo mission, getting whipped by a no-name villain. The Hyena steals some of the (android) Human Torch's blood. Agent Axis tricks Cap into flinging away his circular shield (but the Agent was kind enough to bring Cap's original, triangular shield to the battle, so that, at least was nice of him). And then the Sub-Mariner gets electrocuted by a shark-shaped torpedo (don't ask). And then this (http://www.blar.org/budgie/Namor'sPanties1.jpg) happens (http://www.blar.org/budgie/Namor'sPanties2.jpg).

That's right. Hitler wants Namor's Speedos. Namor's funky-ass, never-ever-changed man-panties. To make wetsuits. Imagine the horror of being a Nazi SCUBA guy, had this plan come to fruition.

And look who he sends to get them. I'll be honest: I know nothing about this "Shark" character -- but doesn't he just strike you as the sort who'd take his sweet time changing the Avenging Prince of Atlantis out of his undies? And with a nose like that, you just know he's been... sniffing them. Maybe he plans on keeping 'em in his hope chest, who knows?

Oh, and as a parting shot, how about this scintillating exchange?

NAMOR: You! Ugly one!
HENCHMAN: Huh? You called me -- UGLY!?
NAMOR: I did! For that is what you ARE!

Neener, neener, neener. Namor practices his taunts on second-graders, it would seem. "You! Pee-pants! Yes, I have noticed that you smell like PEE! And that this odor emanates from... YOUR PANTS! Hah! Imperius Rex!"

Needless to say I went out, got said annual, and yes it is just that bad. Allthough you can enjoy it in a "what were they thinking/MST3K" way.

[Joe Acro]

Comics were different then. The language simplicity allows for the comic to appeal to children. As for the rest of it, I can't really say for certain that it is that bad. There may be reasons the author of that review missed or parts he doesn't elaborate on just to make his case.

[Expletive Deleted]

No, it pretty much is that pointless. Roy, for all his merits, is seriously anal about perfect continuity. That's why CRISIS was such a huge blow to his DC work.

He really did write that story for the sole purpose of fixing a costuming flub.

[Joe Acro]

Is anyone else not peeved at the retcon of Apocalypse's history?

[curefreak]

Is anyone else not peeved at the retcon of Apocalypse's history?
what was it?

[Joe Acro]

what was it?
How he's been killed multiple times in the past and uses Cable's techno-organic blood to resurrect himself. How the Celestials left Ship for him to find. How he's had a spare ship made from Celestial technology since way back when and hasn't ever used it until recently.

[Kid Kyoto]

umm Sue has blonde hair. Namor does not. & why no wings on Frankie's feet?
(well ankles)

It was shown in Astonishing Super Tales #23 that Namor is blonde just like his cousin Namorita but dyes his hair black so people will take him more seriously.

Since blonde is a recessive gene both of Franklyn's parents would have to carry it for him to be blonde.












(all BS of course but I had you for minute)

[Kid Kyoto]

No one's mentioned Sage?

Sage was intro'ed as Prof X's inside mole in the Hellfire Club from before they first fought the Xmen. She was supposed to be giving Prof X everything she learned. Yet in the original story the xmen AND prof X are completely igornant of their foes.

Either she is meant to be the worst spy ever or it's just a bad retcon. Worse yet she's a Clairmont creation so there's no excuse for her poor fit, he wrote both stories!

[hmnut73]

No one's mentioned Sage?

Sage was intro'ed as Prof X's inside mole in the Hellfire Club from before they first fought the Xmen. She was supposed to be giving Prof X everything she learned. Yet in the original story the xmen AND prof X are completely igornant of their foes.

Either she is meant to be the worst spy ever or it's just a bad retcon. Worse yet she's a Clairmont creation so there's no excuse for her poor fit, he wrote both stories!

Very fair point.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I want two things cleared up right now.

1) What DC has been trying to do with post-IC is make a more streamlined DCU, mixing in as many pieces of continuity together, yet making pretty much everyones history simplier, and more understandable.

Personally, I hope this is the last reboot DC does in a long time. The re-organization they have done post-IC has been very good so far. MUCH better than the post-COIE reboot. I like IC as a story, and for what it's doing, and I'm willing to defend my case.

2) Jean Grey. LAST TIME. SHE DIED TWICE, AND CAME BACK ONCE!!!! SHE IS THE PHOENIX. A PHOENIX RISES FROM THE ASHES.....

But you all do have a point about the "is she Phoenix or not" stuff, that was messed up. What Marvel should do is get a talented writer that can show her history in a way that people can understand easier, and GET HER OUT OF THE X-TITLES. They already have Emma and Rachel.

[DDM]

No one's mentioned Sage?

Sage was intro'ed as Prof X's inside mole in the Hellfire Club from before they first fought the Xmen. She was supposed to be giving Prof X everything she learned. Yet in the original story the xmen AND prof X are completely igornant of their foes.

Either she is meant to be the worst spy ever or it's just a bad retcon. Worse yet she's a Clairmont creation so there's no excuse for her poor fit, he wrote both stories!

I don't think Sage is a retcon. Given Claremont wrote most of her appearances, he never did give out any substantial background information about Sage, as Tessa, when she was with the Hellfire Club. Furthermore, Sage acted as Xavier's double agent. As a double agent, she has a defined goal. I think Tessa's true role was to find the true source of the Hellfire Club's evil. The Shadow King is the source.

[brundlefly]

No one's mentioned Sage?

Sage was intro'ed as Prof X's inside mole in the Hellfire Club from before they first fought the Xmen. She was supposed to be giving Prof X everything she learned. Yet in the original story the xmen AND prof X are completely igornant of their foes.

Either she is meant to be the worst spy ever or it's just a bad retcon. Worse yet she's a Clairmont creation so there's no excuse for her poor fit, he wrote both stories!

I never cared for the Tessa "double agent" reveal. Despite how deep-cover and plugged-in she was supposed to be, the Hellfire Club were not only covertly tapping into Cerebro and plotting to take out the X-Men when first introduced to the reader, but then they trounced and imprisoned them twice. At what point is she allowed to give them a hand (or at least a hint that they're in danger)? A secret agent's not much use if the organization she works for gets wiped out while she's "maintaining her cover." And if Xavier knew about the Hellfire Club's potential threat all along, enough to put a sleeper agent into their midst, there's no excuse for how he got caught completely napping by them.

Plus I liked Tessa as Sebastian Shaw's Dune-like personal Mentat much better than the cliched Matrix knock-off Sage any day of the week. Not a good trade-off.

[Doom]

I'd have to say the worst Retcon I've seen in a while would be Huddlin's Black Panther series?

Did Captain America get the Vibrinium for his Shield by venturing to Wakanda, having a talk with T'Challa's father, before impressing him enough with his honour to be awarded the Vibrinium? You know the great Christopher Priest story where Cap showed that he was a truely honourable man who could win a kings respect?

Naw, according to the new Huddlin series Cap was sent to beat up T'Chakka, but lost because Black Panther is so bad asses. Then the US Government covered it all up.

Is the Radioactive Man, Dr. Chien Lui, a Chinease physicist who is currently working as a Thunderbolt?

Naw, according to the new Huddlin series, he's a Russian guy.

Ulysses Klaw, an evil scientist with the power to create and absoarb sound and solid sound items?

Naw, according to the new Huddlin series, he's an assasin with a robotic morphing arm.

And the less said about T'Challa himself, the better.

The Huddlin series is bizzare in how at times he completely reboots history. I keep thinking that maybe the explenation for why the current Black Panther is so different from the BP everyone else knew will be that one day T'Challa watched House Party on the television and had a nightmare as a result, and the Cosmic Cube in his basement altered Wakanda into this new House Partiesied version of itself.

(Ah Alex Ross's Earth X series. You introduced so many new concepts and historys that at times comic fans don't know what facts are established and what facts are just part of the Earth X universe.)

[Joe Acro]

Ulysses Klaw, an evil scientist with the power to create and absoarb sound and solid sound items?

Naw, according to the new Huddlin series, he's an assasin with a robotic morphing arm.

I think he started out as a scientist and later became an assassin (that whole killing Panther's father thing). And he has a morphing arm? I thought he had a sound device with which he could create and manipulate sound...

[Eric_Carnaby]

Dan Slott's turning She-Hulk into a clownish quirk-queen, arguably modelled after Ally McBeal is in my opinion one of the worst changes/retcons in the MU lately, as well as the book itself, which is neither funny nor thrilling...
Living Lightning all of a sudden being gay (for "shock"'s sake), in spite of past stories that showed him having girlfriends.
Black Panther by Hudlin also ranks there as a crappy retcon.
The Winter Soldier is absolute trash.
Sins Past stinks.

[Kyle_Ion]

1. Since When Was Polaris Magneto's Daughter, when did this happen. I have a friend who claims that this is so, so can someone confirm that.


2. The Retcon where in the Annihilation Mini that the writers are like oh by the way the Silver Surfer isn't Galactus first herald its the Fallen One, what a bunch of BS. Since the very first silver surfer comic book #1 its been said that the Silver Surfer was Galactus's first herald.

[Expletive Deleted]

This isn't a "what do you hate" thread. It's a "worst retcons" thread.

Admittedly it's a fine distinction, but I think it's worth mentioning.

[curefreak]

1. Since When Was Polaris Magneto's Daughter, when did this happen. I have a friend who claims that this is so, so can someone confirm that.


2. The Retcon where in the Annihilation Mini that the writers are like oh by the way the Silver Surfer isn't Galactus first herald its the Fallen One, what a bunch of BS. Since the very first silver surfer comic book #1 its been said that the Silver Surfer was Galactus's first herald.
magneto had claimed that polaris was his daughter during the first x-men series written by neal adams,
but then it was considered a lie at the end,
after that what happened im not sure.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Is it possible to put people on an ignore list around here?

[Tommy]

I would say Chris Claremont's attempts to effectively kick everything that happened to the X-men prior to his run out of continuity were pretty bad. Most notable was that Magneto prior to his run was dead, and that the Magneto of his run was a different person.

[Expletive Deleted]

Is it possible to put people on an ignore list around here?It is, and I highly recommend it. If everyone used the ignore list properly, we'd have far fewer flame wars.

Go to the user's public profile. There should be a link marked "Add [username] to Your Ignore List." Click it, click "Submit It" on the next screen, and you're good to go.

You can also get to the list through your User CP (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/usercp.php). Go to "Buddy/Ignore Lists" under Miscellaneous in the left-hand menu. Type in the username or names, click "Update Ignore List," and you're likewise good to go.

[DDM]

magneto had claimed that polaris was his daughter during the first x-men series written by neal adams,
but then it was considered a lie at the end,
after that what happened im not sure.

No, Neal Adams run revealed the "Magneto" Mesmero served in Uncanny X-Men #49-52 was a robot shown in Uncanny X-Men #58 & Magneto emphasized it in Uncanny X-Men #112 to clear up a confused Cyclops.

When the Sentinels kidnaps Mesmero, the "Magneto" robot falls apart.

[curefreak]

No, Neal Adams run revealed the "Magneto" Mesmero served in Uncanny X-Men #49-52 was a robot shown in Uncanny X-Men #58 & Magneto emphasized it in Uncanny X-Men #112 to clear up a confused Cyclops.

When the Sentinels kidnaps Mesmero, the "Magneto" robot falls apart.
blah i forgot about that :mad:

[brundlefly]

I'd have to say the worst Retcon I've seen in a while would be Huddlin's Black Panther series?

Did Captain America get the Vibrinium for his Shield by venturing to Wakanda, having a talk with T'Challa's father, before impressing him enough with his honour to be awarded the Vibrinium? You know the great Christopher Priest story where Cap showed that he was a truely honourable man who could win a kings respect?

Naw, according to the new Huddlin series Cap was sent to beat up T'Chakka, but lost because Black Panther is so bad asses. Then the US Government covered it all up.

Is the Radioactive Man, Dr. Chien Lui, a Chinease physicist who is currently working as a Thunderbolt?

Naw, according to the new Huddlin series, he's a Russian guy.

Ulysses Klaw, an evil scientist with the power to create and absoarb sound and solid sound items?

Naw, according to the new Huddlin series, he's an assasin with a robotic morphing arm.

And the less said about T'Challa himself, the better.

The Huddlin series is bizzare in how at times he completely reboots history. I keep thinking that maybe the explenation for why the current Black Panther is so different from the BP everyone else knew will be that one day T'Challa watched House Party on the television and had a nightmare as a result, and the Cosmic Cube in his basement altered Wakanda into this new House Partiesied version of itself.

(Ah Alex Ross's Earth X series. You introduced so many new concepts and historys that at times comic fans don't know what facts are established and what facts are just part of the Earth X universe.)

I have no idea why on Earth Hudlin is allowed to write a major comic book series (I realize opinions vary on how "major" BP is), much less one set in Marvel 616 continuity. A few House Party movies and Boomerang on a writer resume do not scream, "My God, sign this man up to write a Marvel title immediately!" He would be better off on an independent creator-owned title of some kind, one that I could then completely ignore since it wouldn't be affecting a comics universe that I read other titles in and then have to deal with his goofball stories having an impact on.

[dazzler_slave]

Let us just say that the whole backtracking on the Magnus-as-Zorn thing was one of the best retcons and leave it at that.

HTG
I agree. Morrison's story, if it had not been retconned, would have ended the possibility of ever using the X-Men's greatest adversary ever again. Plus, it's not THAT confusing people! There were two brothers who called themselves Xorn. One went crazy and impersonated Magneto and was killed. The other lost his powers in DeciMation. The first guy pops up again in Avengers and they clarify what happened and that's the end of it.

[Leebenhouse]

I have no idea why on Earth Hudlin is allowed to write a major comic book series (I realize opinions vary on how "major" BP is), much less one set in Marvel 616 continuity. A few House Party movies and Boomerang on a writer resume do not scream, "My God, sign this man up to write a Marvel title immediately!" He would be better off on an independent creator-owned title of some kind, one that I could then completely ignore since it wouldn't be affecting a comics universe that I read other titles in and then have to deal with his goofball stories having an impact on.
As for Hudlin, I wonder if he pulls the race card every time someone tries to correct him, considering I've heard he pulls it a lot.

Editor: uh, Mr. Hudlin, The Radioactive man isn't Russian...

Hudlin: Yeah he is!

Editor: Uh in all his appearances including the current Nicieza run on Thunderbolts, he's chinese.

Hudlin: Are you saying that I don't know comic books? That I'm some sort of uneducated (n-word)?

Editor: No, no of course not!

Hudlin: You think I'm wrong huh? You gonna have me fired? I'll sue this company for racism!!! I know hollywood lawyers!!

Editor: No, no it's okay, you're a bigshot Hollywood star at Marvel, we'd never fire you! Go ahead and write him as if he was Russian.

(Sorry if that offened anybody, but that's how I'd see it.)

As for other Retcons, I think Bendis, though I hated Disassembled, he wasn't stretching it much saying that Wanda had reality altering powers, as isn't her ability to alter probabilities on a massive scale? Thus isn't she altering reality by forcing upon it an impossible probablity?

Interesting fact: I discovered while reading FF 378 or 379, that Byrne was the one who introduced Valeria in his retelling of Doom's origin as it was being implanted into Kristoff. She just wasn't an important character, just important in that she showed just how inhuman he became after his parent's death.

I really wish she hadn't been made into his skin armor, as that takes away a potential influence on him in future stories.

[dazzler_slave]

Thats a matter of opinion. See Colossus resurrection.
Yes I see the Colossus resurrection, and boy was I pleased about that! Umm, what am I looking at other than the return of one of my favourite characters?

(Of course, I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape over characters coming back from the dead. If you like a character, don't you want to see more of them? I am still moved at the death of the Phoenix, even if it wasn't Jean)

[Expletive Deleted]

I agree. Morrison's story, if it had not been retconned, would have ended the possibility of ever using the X-Men's greatest adversary ever again.Nah, he could've easily been brought back without retconning the Xorn angle. It's an X-Comic, after all.

[Kid Kyoto]

I don't think Sage is a retcon. Given Claremont wrote most of her appearances, he never did give out any substantial background information about Sage, as Tessa, when she was with the Hellfire Club. Furthermore, Sage acted as Xavier's double agent. As a double agent, she has a defined goal. I think Tessa's true role was to find the true source of the Hellfire Club's evil. The Shadow King is the source.

but it still makes no sense, since in flashbacks her mission was something like "to report everything she learned to Xavier". Yet in the original story Xavier's own thoughs say he has no idea who they are up against.

Sage could be made workable but the extent of the retcon is just really bad.

[brundlefly]

Nah, he could've easily been brought back without retconning the Xorn angle. It's an X-Comic, after all.

I think he meant use the actual well-written, three-dimensional version of Magneto again, seeing as how the ridiculous death camps and attempted genocide in NYC flew in the face of that characterization. No writer would be able to adequately explain or justify the behavior if attempting to bring Mags back as a grey area character. He (and we as readers) would have to deal with constant wearisome accusations of "How can you explain what you did in NYC; you're no better than Hitler!" Better to go with a simple "nope, that wasn't him" and just move on. Morrison's real villain through that whole series was always Sublime; it matters little who he was using as a host for the fight scene in Planet X. Having it be the real Magnus just creates unnecessary potholes for future writers.

[brundlefly]

As for Hudlin, I wonder if he pulls the race card every time someone tries to correct him, considering I've heard he pulls it a lot.

Editor: uh, Mr. Hudlin, The Radioactive man isn't Russian...

Hudlin: Yeah he is!

Editor: Uh in all his appearances including the current Nicieza run on Thunderbolts, he's chinese.

Hudlin: Are you saying that I don't know comic books? That I'm some sort of uneducated (n-word)?

Editor: No, no of course not!

Hudlin: You think I'm wrong huh? You gonna have me fired? I'll sue this company for racism!!! I know hollywood lawyers!!

Editor: No, no it's okay, you're a bigshot Hollywood star at Marvel, we'd never fire you! Go ahead and write him as if he was Russian.

Heh, that was great, Leebenhouse. :D Actually, I can totally see him using that as a knee-jerk defense for common everyday situations (speeding, cutting in line, being late, etc.), given how reflexively he used it to defend his subpar writing ability and lack of knowledge about the character that he's writing (and about Marvel comics in general).

[DDM]

As for Hudlin, I wonder if he pulls the race card every time someone tries to correct him, considering I've heard he pulls it a lot.

Editor: uh, Mr. Hudlin, The Radioactive man isn't Russian...

Hudlin: Yeah he is!

Editor: Uh in all his appearances including the current Nicieza run on Thunderbolts, he's chinese.

Hudlin: Are you saying that I don't know comic books? That I'm some sort of uneducated (n-word)?

Editor: No, no of course not!

Hudlin: You think I'm wrong huh? You gonna have me fired? I'll sue this company for racism!!! I know hollywood lawyers!!

Editor: No, no it's okay, you're a bigshot Hollywood star at Marvel, we'd never fire you! Go ahead and write him as if he was Russian.

(Sorry if that offened anybody, but that's how I'd see it.)

As for other Retcons, I think Bendis, though I hated Disassembled, he wasn't stretching it much saying that Wanda had reality altering powers, as isn't her ability to alter probabilities on a massive scale? Thus isn't she altering reality by forcing upon it an impossible probablity?

Interesting fact: I discovered while reading FF 378 or 379, that Byrne was the one who introduced Valeria in his retelling of Doom's origin as it was being implanted into Kristoff. She just wasn't an important character, just important in that she showed just how inhuman he became after his parent's death.

I really wish she hadn't been made into his skin armor, as that takes away a potential influence on him in future stories.


Reggie Hudlin is the Cynthia McKinney of the comic book world. You have just nailed him right in personality. The editors don't edit Hudlin's books; they are glorified yes-people--not editors. If the editors were doing their jobs, most of Hudlin's stories would not make it to publication due to the wrong content for the character.

[Expletive Deleted]

With all the mind control hijinx that've gone on in the MU over the years and the general inconsistency of the MU public's reaction to these things, I don't think it would've been quite that big a deal for Magneto to just blame Sublime and move on. . . but I do see where you're coming from.

Regardless, I think we can agree that the bigger problem isn't so much the retcon as the constant re-retconning. A simple "It wasn't Magneto" would've done the job just fine, as opposed to the continuity shambles we've got now.

[DDM]

but it still makes no sense, since in flashbacks her mission was something like "to report everything she learned to Xavier". Yet in the original story Xavier's own thoughs say he has no idea who they are up against.

Sage could be made workable but the extent of the retcon is just really bad.

Yes, but Sage may not have reported to Xavier in the time Jean Grey was corrupted into the Black Queen. Xavier wanted Tessa to keep a close eye on Sebastian Shaw & the Hellfire Club; she could not violate her mission without compromising her secret plans. Tessa also has said she feels guilty for not knowing of Jean Grey's corruption into the Black Queen until it was too late (Phoenix had already taken the persona & costume of the Black Queen when Tessa makes her first appearance in Uncanny X-Men #132).

[brundlefly]

Regardless, I think we can agree that the bigger problem isn't so much the retcon as the constant re-retconning. A simple "It wasn't Magneto" would've done the job just fine, as opposed to the continuity shambles we've got now.

Oh, I'm completely with you on that note. The simplest explanation should almost always be the way to go in such matters. Instead we get convoluted "revelations" like multiple Xorns, Kwannon/Revanche, "Norman Osborn never died and was behind the clone saga all along," etc. Just painful to read when a simpler explanation would allow the writer and the reader to move on past the damage control and on to an actual worthwhile story

[dazzler_slave]

I think he meant use the actual well-written, three-dimensional version of Magneto again, seeing as how the ridiculous death camps and attempted genocide in NYC flew in the face of that characterization. No writer would be able to adequately explain or justify the behavior if attempting to bring Mags back as a grey area character. He (and we as readers) would have to deal with constant wearisome accusations of "How can you explain what you did in NYC; you're no better than Hitler!" Better to go with a simple "nope, that wasn't him" and just move on. Morrison's real villain through that whole series was always Sublime; it matters little who he was using as a host for the fight scene in Planet X. Having it be the real Magnus just creates unnecessary potholes for future writers.
Yeah, that is exactly what I meant. I see your point too Expletive Deleted, but I really didn't find the whole Xorn issue all that convoluted. I think readers are making it a bigger deal than it is.

[Joe Acro]

As for other Retcons, I think Bendis, though I hated Disassembled, he wasn't stretching it much saying that Wanda had reality altering powers, as isn't her ability to alter probabilities on a massive scale? Thus isn't she altering reality by forcing upon it an impossible probablity?
Retcons in Disassembled have very little to do with Scarlet Witch's power. I mean, in JLA Avengers, she thrust Starro back into space. (I still don't think that's in continuity...) The retcons we refer to are Wanda going crazy in the first place, her knowing about her children, and Dr. Strange saying there is no such thing as chaos magic even though he's used it.

[Expletive Deleted]

I see your point too Expletive Deleted, but I really didn't find the whole Xorn issue all that convoluted. I think readers are making it a bigger deal than it is.If they'd gone with one explanation and stuck with it, I'd agree. It wouldn't have been particularly convoluted.

But they invented this whole elaborate backstory to who and what that the "fake" Magneto was. Then they blamed the Scarlet Witch. Then they went back to the elaborate backstory, but with some tweaks.

And that is convoluted.

[Kid Kyoto]

I think he meant use the actual well-written, three-dimensional version of Magneto again, seeing as how the ridiculous death camps and attempted genocide in NYC flew in the face of that characterization. No writer would be able to adequately explain or justify the behavior if attempting to bring Mags back as a grey area character. He (and we as readers) would have to deal with constant wearisome accusations of "How can you explain what you did in NYC; you're no better than Hitler!" Better to go with a simple "nope, that wasn't him" and just move on. Morrison's real villain through that whole series was always Sublime; it matters little who he was using as a host for the fight scene in Planet X. Having it be the real Magnus just creates unnecessary potholes for future writers.

well he was drugged out of his mind at the time but I see your point.

[Joe Acro]

At this point, I think the story is that Xorn is some kind of cosmic entity. It has a goal to enhance the mutant race's position in the world. So, it/they took physical form, possessing the one in Morrison's run before he joined the school. Later, he tried to complete his goal in his takeover of New York. After his defeat, and the body's decapitation, he went into hiding. He returned in New Avengers, having gathered the essences of the lost mutant powers. His goal this time was to apparently restore Magneto his power, giving him the ability to succeed where he and Xorn had previously failed.

[Kid Kyoto]

Yes, but Sage may not have reported to Xavier in the time Jean Grey was corrupted into the Black Queen. Xavier wanted Tessa to keep a close eye on Sebastian Shaw & the Hellfire Club; she could not violate her mission without compromising her secret plans. Tessa also has said she feels guilty for not knowing of Jean Grey's corruption into the Black Queen until it was too late (Phoenix had already taken the persona & costume of the Black Queen when Tessa makes her first appearance in Uncanny X-Men #132).

The problem is she's written as very smart, very competant and yet she did not manage to get one word to Prof X? And Prof X, no slouch himself, never figured "maybe I should contact my inside woman"?

I could buy it if she was written as a flake, or if the X-men had some knowledge of the Hellfire Club going in but as is the whole story just does not hold water for me. Your milage may vary of course.

[90'sCartoonMan]

(Ah Alex Ross's Earth X series. You introduced so many new concepts and historys that at times comic fans don't know what facts are established and what facts are just part of the Earth X universe.)

That's hardly Alex Ross' fault, but I agree with you. It's cool how he had Wolverine be a true human rather than a mutant, but it wouldn't make sense in the MU we know.

A lot of people have said Deadly Genesis, most likely because of Gabriel, but what bugs me most about the DG retcon is Krakoa. The way they altered him feels awkward.

[brundlefly]

Yes, but Sage may not have reported to Xavier in the time Jean Grey was corrupted into the Black Queen. Xavier wanted Tessa to keep a close eye on Sebastian Shaw & the Hellfire Club; she could not violate her mission without compromising her secret plans. Tessa also has said she feels guilty for not knowing of Jean Grey's corruption into the Black Queen until it was too late (Phoenix had already taken the persona & costume of the Black Queen when Tessa makes her first appearance in Uncanny X-Men #132).

Here's something I didn't think about when I made my earlier post about Tessa/Sage. Did we (the reader) ever see her during the Dark Phoenix Saga? It could be that Tessa was assigned elsewhere at the time (the Hellfire Club has other locales and holdings besides NYC) and not present or included in Shaw's schemings around the time of DPS, and then brought into the Inner Circle and made Shaw's mentat post-DPS. If that's the case (as I honestly just don't remember if she appeared during that time period), I have less of a problem with this whole concept. Xavier was never in imminent mortal danger from the Hellfire Club again after that nor were the X-Men ever completely defeated and captured by the HC again, two events that I think would be more than sufficient reason for Tessa to "break cover."

[Sandy Hausler]

First of all, it's Norman Osborn. Not Osbourne.

And Sins past is probably the worst.

At last. I would've thought that there would be no contest. Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborne . . . the mind boggles.

Sandy Hausler

[Joe Acro]

At last. I would've thought that there would be no contest. Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborne . . . the mind boggles.
At last, what?

[curefreak]

Here's something I didn't think about when I made my earlier post about Tessa/Sage. Did we (the reader) ever see her during the Dark Phoenix Saga? It could be that Tessa was assigned elsewhere at the time (the Hellfire Club has other locales and holdings besides NYC) and not present or included in Shaw's schemings around the time of DPS, and then brought into the Inner Circle and made Shaw's mentat post-DPS. If that's the case (as I honestly just don't remember if she appeared during that time period), I have less of a problem with this whole concept. Xavier was never in imminent mortal danger from the Hellfire Club again after that nor were the X-Men ever completely defeated and captured by the HC again, two events that I think would be more than sufficient reason for Tessa to "break cover."i dont remember tessa being around during the dark phoenix saga but if im wrong it wouldnt be the first time.

[Tommy]

i dont remember tessa being around during the dark phoenix saga but if im wrong it wouldnt be the first time.
She wasn't. She was retconned in later.

[DDM]

She wasn't. She was retconned in later.

Tessa makes her first appearance in Uncanny X-Men #132 placing Shaw's robe on him after he places an unconscious Storm on the floor. Tessa also appears by Shaw's side in Uncanny X-Men #151. However, Tessa's name is not revealed until Marvel Graphic Novel #4: The New Mutants when the fanatical mining magnate cyborg, Donald Piece, kidnaps Tessa in an attempt to take over the Hellfire Club's Inner Circle from Black King, Sebastian Shaw. Pierce is expellled from the Inner Circle for his failed coup de'tat thanks to Xavier's New Mutants & eventually founds the Reavers.

[brundlefly]

Tessa makes her first appearance in Uncanny X-Men #132 placing Shaw's robe on him after he places an unconscious Storm on the floor. Tessa also appears by Shaw's side in Uncanny X-Men #151. However, Tessa's name is not revealed until Marvel Graphic Novel #4: The New Mutants when the fanatical mining magnate cyborg, Donald Piece, kidnaps Tessa in an attempt to take over the Hellfire Club's Inner Circle from Black King, Sebastian Shaw. Pierce is expellled from the Inner Circle for his failed coup de'tat thanks to Xavier's New Mutants & eventually founds the Reavers.

Hmmm. OK, that works better for me now, since that means she could a) have been out of the loop for Hellfire's first strike on Xavier & the X-Men, unable to warn him that they were a target since she didn't know, and b) unable to communicate with Xavier during the attack on the Club's New York HQ during the Dark Phoenix saga (Chuck was at Angel's mountain retreat, not at the mansion when that took place, so she might not have been able to contact him) and then forced to maintain her cover even when the X-Men got taken out. Also fits with her regret about not being up to speed in time to stop Jean from being corrupted by Shaw and Mastermind, as she had only recently been brought into the Inner Circle. It was the Hellfire Club knowing everything about the X-Men and having a tap on Cerebro, plus Xavier getting caught completely unawares by them in their first encounter that made the "sleeper agent" bit hard to swallow if Tessa was firmly in place in the Inner Circle at the time and knew all their plans.

[DDM]

Hmmm. OK, that works better for me now, since that means she could a) have been out of the loop for Hellfire's first strike on Xavier & the X-Men, unable to warn him that they were a target since she didn't know, and b) unable to communicate with Xavier during the attack on the Club's New York HQ during the Dark Phoenix saga (Chuck was at Angel's mountain retreat, not at the mansion when that took place, so she might not have been able to contact him) and then forced to maintain her cover even when the X-Men got taken out. Also fits with her regret about not being up to speed in time to stop Jean from being corrupted by Shaw and Mastermind, as she had only recently been brought into the Inner Circle. It was the Hellfire Club knowing everything about the X-Men and having a tap on Cerebro, plus Xavier getting caught completely unawares by them in their first encounter that made the "sleeper agent" bit hard to swallow if Tessa was firmly in place in the Inner Circle at the time and knew all their plans.

When Mastermind is talking with Sebastian Shaw in Uncanny X-Men #129-130 about his corruption of Phoenix into the Black Queen, Tessa is not present. The shadowed figures in Uncanny X-Men #129--revealed later in Uncanny X-Men #132--is White King, Donald Pierce, & Black Bishop, Harry Leland. Tessa does not appear at all until Uncanny X-Men #132 near the end of the story.

[Kid Kyoto]

Good anaysis, I'm still not sold on it (my essentials are en route to my next assignment in China) but your take does hold some water.

I should also say Sage could work rereading the old stories in the essentials I can see hints that she had another agenda, esp the story with Rachel and Celene (sp?).

So if that's out then I vote for Phoenix wan't really Jean grey. I mean WTF? if you need Jean Grey back (and I personally think you NEVER need to ressurect a character, just make a new one) then bring her back. Once you start the 'everything you know is a lie' cycle then no story means anything. This nonsence leads to the second worst, Aunt May wasn't the one who died.

[DDM]

Good anaysis, I'm still not sold on it (my essentials are en route to my next assignment in China) but your take does hold some water.

I should also say Sage could work rereading the old stories in the essentials I can see hints that she had another agenda, esp the story with Rachel and Celene (sp?).

So if that's out then I vote for Phoenix wan't really Jean grey. I mean WTF? if you need Jean Grey back (and I personally think you NEVER need to ressurect a character, just make a new one) then bring her back. Once you start the 'everything you know is a lie' cycle then no story means anything. This nonsence leads to the second worst, Aunt May wasn't the one who died.

It's Selene. Reread Uncanny X-Men #189 when Selene applies to become the Hellfire Club's Black Queen; Tessa wants Shaw to Selene's "gift"--Magma & Rachel as slaves--to destroy Selene because Tessa recognizes Rachel has a close resemblance to Jean Grey, Phoenix. Selene, as the Black Queen, does make the Hellfire Club's power struggles between Shaw & Selene more dominant since Selene wants to rule the Hellfire Club.

Tessa has a minor role in Classic X-Men #7 when Sebastian Shaw & Emma Frost lead a successful coup de'tat against White King, Edward Buckman, & White Queen, Paris Seville. Shaw & Frost kill the human Council of the Chosen then repopulate the club within a club with mutants. Shaw renames the Council of the Chosen the Inner Circle.

[brundlefly]

When Mastermind is talking with Sebastian Shaw in Uncanny X-Men #129-130 about his corruption of Phoenix into the Black Queen, Tessa is not present. The shadowed figures in Uncanny X-Men #129--revealed later in Uncanny X-Men #132--is White King, Donald Pierce, & Black Bishop, Harry Leland. Tessa does not appear at all until Uncanny X-Men #132 near the end of the story.

Thanks for clarifying when we first actually saw Tessa, DDM, since I could not recall offhand. Her appearance being afterthe X-Men's first fight with Hellfire and Jean's transformation into the Black Queen make it much easier for me to swallow the Sage/sleeper agent concept. I don't mind the occasional retcon as long as it makes sense, serves a storytelling purpose, and doesn't wildly contradict pre-existing stories. Most tend to fail on all three counts, but it seems like the Tessa/Sage retcon holds water. My only nitpick was in reference to why she didn't warn Xavier about the Inner Circle's plans circa X-Men 128 or so. Since she was not privy to those plans... well, that would explain it.

[jadegiant77]

having Doctor Strange, of all people, claiming that there is no such thing as chaos magic.

Yeh really...he was using the stuff in Uncanny something or o ther(tthe one where Wolvie and Angel had to dip Psylocke's soul in the Crimson Dawn).

I know this was probably said hundreds o times, but..that whole Gwen Stacy doing Norman Osborne crap-o-rama. Thanks, JMS.

[jadegiant77]

Kwannon/Revanche as Psylocke's doublemint twin from X-Men #19-21, 31-32 to explain Betsy Braddock's transformation from Anglo-Saxon female to an Asian female. Fabien made another mistake making Kwannon Japanese when she should be Chinese.



Um, why should she be Chinese? I loved issues #31-32!

[Leebenhouse]

Um, why should she be Chinese? I loved issues #31-32!

She shouldn't be Chinese. Japanese, as the Hand, which was sort of involved in her transformation, was Japanese. I have her original new origin stories in the X-Men Origins TPB that reprints her, Beast, and Archangels transformations. Even back in those issues of Uncanny, The Hand was supposedly involved.

Question, is the Handbook the guide of continuity, at least for our standpoint as readers? After all, it orignally existed to define characters,but evolved to detail their history. In the paast it even existed to act as a no-prize clearing house, often filling in spaces or leaving spaces open in a characters history.

[Babylon23]

Yeh really...he was using the stuff in Uncanny something or o ther(tthe one where Wolvie and Angel had to dip Psylocke's soul in the Crimson Dawn).

There was a period in the 90's, somewhere around the Midnight Sons period IIRC, where Strange was exclusively using chaos magic. The Vishanti had rejected him, so he couldn't call on them anymore. He embraced chaos magic as a power source since no other options were available to him.

The fact that Wanda's origin was tied to a Chaos God doesn't help the Disassembled story either.

[Sandy Hausler]

At last, what?

The suggestion that the retcon that Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn had slept together and had children together was the worst retcon came fairly late in this thread (unless I missed an earlier reference), in my opinion.

Sandy Hausler