I say they just get Warlock.... [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

chrono727

08-14-2006, 08:38 PM

Seriously the greatest closer of all time....You got a problem on a universal scale call in the professionals....Will he sacrifice you and 80% of your forces? Yes....Will he possibly get you killed? Of course and his prices are unreasonable but you will win dammit! The man has a record that few can match.....Every plan is done with sickening precision and efficency not seen since Martha Stewart was in prison. Before you have been sacrificed as mere cannon fodder for his "real" plan you at least will know you were apart of his grand tapestry....

Now im not saying half the galaxy will survive cause that is the one disclaimer that does go with the man.....Things will die....but you are guaranteed the win....eventually....and while you lay dead your loved ones will tell the story of Adam's victory....while he goes off somewhere to reflect and eat a bowl of cereal out of dead Nova's helmut pondering how good he is....

Yes they should simply find Adam...;)

Babylon23

08-15-2006, 12:24 AM

Works for me.

Alan2099

08-15-2006, 05:55 AM

I'd rather Adam and Thanos keep out of the story as much as possible.

Willminus2

08-15-2006, 12:23 PM

I'm dying to see Adam Warlock get in there and kick some butt.

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 04:04 PM

I'd rather Adam and Thanos keep out of the story as much as possible.

For once I agree with you. I could never get into Adam Warlock. He was created by the The Enclave as the perfect human and then for reasons I can't figure out became a space-faring cape-jockey after trying to force himself on Sif. The guy just makes no sense to me.

Edit: And Thanos has always been the poor-man's Darkseid.

drwho

08-15-2006, 04:24 PM

I think it is nice to see for a change another character get more screen time than Adam. He had all the Infinity minis where he was the main guy. Time for someone new to be in the spotlight.

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 07:56 PM

Edit: And Thanos has always been the poor-man's Darkseid.

I hope your joking right? Because if not you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! Darkseid hasn't done half of what Thanos has, plus everyone kickes Darkseids arse in continuity, who was the last person to lay Thanos out in continuity (don't give me that Squirell Girl crap, that was denounced from continuity). Thanos is the one person that when he shows up no matter who they are in the Mu they pretty well Shat themselves (save Adam Warlock). Plus it's common knowledge he'd make the Big Blue Boyscout his prison b!tch... That's fact!

chrono727

08-15-2006, 08:16 PM

For once I agree with you. I could never get into Adam Warlock. He was created by the The Enclave as the perfect human and then for reasons I can't figure out became a space-faring cape-jockey after trying to force himself on Sif. The guy just makes no sense to me.

Edit: And Thanos has always been the poor-man's Darkseid.

*cough* Baiter...*cough*

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 08:19 PM

*cough* Baiter...*cough*

I'm not baiting anything. If someone can explain Adam Warlock to me I'd be happy to hear it. The guy makes no sense to me. And Thanos has always been a cheap rip-off of Kirby's Darkseid. That's FACT!

(okay, that last part was baiting, but the rest is truth.)

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 08:20 PM

*cough* Baiter...*cough*

You're absolutely right, and I couldn't even help myself... :mad:

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 08:22 PM

I'm not baiting anything. If someone can explain Adam Warlock to me I'd be happy to hear it. The guy makes no sense to me. And Thanos has always been a cheap rip-off of Kirby's Darkseid. That's FACT!

(okay, that last part was baiting, but the rest is truth.)

Actually that's not fact both characters came from another template Starlin had designed, but never used.

Joe Acro

08-15-2006, 08:22 PM

What I don't understand is why we don't have Adam already. Gamora's there. The last time we saw her previous to all this was in Infinity Abyss, whereWarlock and Gamora joined the two year old Atleza in her new realm to ease her transition and act as foster parents.

And now she's sleeping with Nova...

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 08:26 PM

Actually that's not fact both characters came from another template Starlin had designed, but never used.

What? Starlin didn't create Adam Warlock. He warped him, yeah, but Lee and Kirby created him.

drwho

08-15-2006, 08:26 PM

I think it gets tiring because he is so powerful and knowledgeable on all things cosmic I just don't want him involved here.

Joe Acro

08-15-2006, 08:33 PM

What? Starlin didn't create Adam Warlock. He warped him, yeah, but Lee and Kirby created him.Warped? That sounds so derogatory. Starlin shaped him into the character we all love (or hate).

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 08:37 PM

Warped? That sounds so derogatory. Starlin shaped him into the character we all love (or hate).

I chose warped because the Stalin Warlock was such a total departure from what the character originally was. That's why he's never made sense to me. He started out the perfect human, went after Thor's girl, dissapeared into character limbo and was brought back as a snotty space adventurer. He might as well be two different characters.

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 08:55 PM

Warlock was created to be the ultimate champion of life standing outside the realm of Chaos and Order his "function" was to defeat the "champion" of death, who he at first thought to be himself the Magus, but later it was realized he was supposed to defeat Thanos, who was the "champion" of Death. The two actually fought side by side to defeat Magus' forces and eventually erased him from the time stream. Warlock then went to the moment of his "death" and absorbed his future self in to the soul gem to prevent ever becoming the Magus.

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 09:11 PM

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 09:14 PM

...wha...? When did that happen? What kinda crazy retcon is that "created to be the ultimate champion of life standing outside the realm of Chaos and Order?" Nothing like that was mentioned in Fantastic Four #66.

In the Warlock series in the 70's, and his appearances during the first Thanos war.

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 09:21 PM

In the Warlock series in the 70's, and his appearances during the first Thanos war.

See, that's what I mean. He went from being created by human scientists to be the perfect human to being the ultimate champion of life standing outside the realm of Chaos and Order his "function." It doesn't even make any sense!

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 09:32 PM

See, that's what I mean. He went from being created by human scientists to be the perfect human to being the ultimate champion of life standing outside the realm of Chaos and Order his "function." It doesn't even make any sense!

Honestly why not? Retconns like this have been a part of comics since their conception. Batman used to use a gun and kill, Superman ran from the cops and used to not be able to fly. This isn't just a Marvel thing or an isolated incident, if a character doesn't work one way he or she gets altered to fit another parameter.

Alan2099

08-15-2006, 09:40 PM

While it does make sense as far any any retcon makes sense, I think they went the wrong way with Adam and he's really suffered for it ever since.

Being a man created Ultimate man would have been tons more intresting than being Space Jesus.

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 09:46 PM

Honestly why not? Retconns like this have been a part of comics since their conception. Batman used to use a gun and kill, Superman ran from the cops and used to not be able to fly. This isn't just a Marvel thing or an isolated incident, if a character doesn't work one way he or she gets altered to fit another parameter.

Yeah, but power and attitude changes are a lot different that total origin restarts. It would make more sense to say that Superboy Prime retcon-punched Warlock into an Earth-Infinity Space Jesus. Starlin just took a C-Rate character and instead of improving him he just altered him into something entirely different.

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 09:59 PM

They kept his origin it just turns out the Hive was manipulated by cosmic forces.

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 10:13 PM

They kept his origin it just turns out the Hive was manipulated by cosmic forces.

Ugh. How silly.

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 10:24 PM

Ugh. How silly.

it depends on if you want it to be. Look at it from the point of view of how else is a underused basically unknown agency going to "create" the perfect person. Or is this another of those things where you are going to hate the character no matter what?

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 10:33 PM

it depends on if you want it to be. Look at it from the point of view of how else is a underused basically unknown agency going to "create" the perfect person.

Two Words: Captain America

Or is this another of those things where you are going to hate the character no matter what?

*cough* Baiter...*cough* :p

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 10:45 PM

Two Words: Captain America

Yeah, but Cap wasn't capable of doing half the things Adam was and is capable of doing, plus cap wasn't exactly created by an unknown underused agency, he was a product of the U.S. Government and Weapons X and Plus.

*cough* Baiter...*cough* :p

I realize it reads like that, and I really didn't mean for it to. I have the same attitude towards some characters as well, that everything they do just seems rediculous to me. I really just didn't know if we were on a endless circle here you know? I didn't mean to insult or agitate you if I did.

Golon9977

08-15-2006, 10:49 PM

Mr.Musgrave

08-15-2006, 11:38 PM

Yeah, but Cap wasn't capable of doing half the things Adam was and is capable of doing, plus cap wasn't exactly created by an unknown underused agency, he was a product of the U.S. Government and Weapons X and Plus.

Originally, Adam was just a regular person really (as far as Prefect Regular Humans go) and before all that stupid Weapon X/Plus/whatever nonsense, the Super-Soldier program consisted of about five guys and was conducted out of what looked like someone's basement. Plus the Beehive was a lot more technologically advanced than you're giving them credit for. The whole idea that they needed to be "cosmically prodded" into creating Warlock goes against the whole basis of his story. It's a very poor, and silly, retcon in my opinion.

I realize it reads like that, and I really didn't mean for it to. I have the same attitude towards some characters as well, that everything they do just seems rediculous to me. I really just didn't know if we were on a endless circle here you know? I didn't mean to insult or agitate you if I did.

Nah. Just messin' with you. ;)

Thanos is still a Darkseid copycat though! :D :p

Jeff-E

08-15-2006, 11:54 PM

Babylon23

08-15-2006, 11:57 PM

Thanos is still a Darkseid copycat though! :D :p

Well, Starlin has always acknowledged that Thanos was a homage to Darkseid.

The problem is that Thanos has had many creators (including Starlin) treat him with the proper respect, while the majority of creators on Darkseid have completely missed the point of the character, and turned him into Superman's whipping boy.

Jeff-E

08-16-2006, 12:06 AM

Well, Starlin has always acknowledged that Thanos was a homage to Darkseid.

The problem is that Thanos has had many creators (including Starlin) treat him with the proper respect, while the majority of creators on Darkseid have completely missed the point of the character, and turned him into Superman's whipping boy.

And Batman's. The Superman/Batman story where Bat's punked him out was just despicable.

Babylon23

08-16-2006, 12:31 AM

And Batman's. The Superman/Batman story where Bat's punked him out was just despicable.

Good point. Darkseid is meant to be the universe's biggest badass, yet everybody punks him these days.

Mr.Musgrave

08-16-2006, 01:05 AM

And Batman's. The Superman/Batman story where Bat's punked him out was just despicable.

That was an extremely low point. It's gotten to the point where his Omega Beams are bouncing off of Wonder Woman's friggin' bracelets. Kirby must be rolling in his grave.

chrono727

08-16-2006, 05:21 AM

Ok I will do my best to "explain" warlock.

Ok we all know and are harping on the whole "He is supposed to be the perfect man not space jesus" thing. But if you will recall in his day he and like 50 other bit characters were designed as "the perfect being/man/woman ect ect" to be some hero's enemy until they realize they are both good or fighting is useless blah blah...Only to have the character do what most of the "perfect people" did....Leave earth or go find their way in the universe ect ect....

Adam was one of those guys if he hadn't been changed to a cosmic being then he would be one of those forgotten "perfect beings" that littered the comic world in the 60's and 70's. Is it a complete turn from his base concept? Yes and no....Characters don't stay the same we all know that....And I think Starlin did a great job of showing how he came from created being to the Adam he is today....Just pick up the first run of his book with counter earth and those stories and its a plausible character change....

Not many characters I know from the 60s/70's era has remained the exact same over the course of the years....Backstories are forgotten with new writers and origins are tweaked often. IMO Warlock is a better character thanks to what Starlin did....How far can you really go with that original base "perfect being" thing? That's why none of the others from that era are around....In their supposed "perfection" lies the problem. Boring Superman ripoffs would run rampant....Giving Adam the flaw of finding out he isn't so perfect and is not a well rounded or fully developed being is what makes him appealing to me. Over Starlins run he made Warlock almost Shakespearian in his mannerisms trying to find out what is his place in the universe, and filled with doubts every defeat or victory.

He isn't a hard character to figure out really....Just gotta give him a chance read the old school stuff.

Joe Acro

08-16-2006, 06:29 AM

The reason Warlock seems so different under Starlin's control is the events that have happened to him since the FF and Thor encounters. He was a confused, somewhat angry soul. He was revived by the High Evolutionary. Under Evolutionary's guidance, Adam's behavior improved. Shortly thereafter, he acquired the Soul Gem and was sent to Counter-Earth by his, for lack of a better term, foster father.

Tommy

08-16-2006, 08:13 AM

(don't give me that Squirell Girl crap, that was denounced from continuity).
Ask and ye shall receive! (It was in continuity.)

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9334/glxmas062jf.jpg

Don't make me post the scans of Thanos getting his ass kicked by seven year old!

Lord S

08-16-2006, 03:38 PM

Ask and ye shall receive! (It was in continuity.)

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9334/glxmas062jf.jpg

Don't make me post the scans of Thanos getting his ass kicked by seven year old! What issue is this from?

And it's not in continuity...how do we know that's even the real Watcher? It was a parody...not meant to be taken seriously. I heard SG's next target is the Living Tribunal! She just may have the the power to take the three-headed fool down!

And regarding Warlock...Andy Schmidt has refused to confirm or deny his involvment in 'Annihilation'...which is a sure sign that he'll show up.

Jeff-E

08-16-2006, 04:46 PM

What issue is this from?
And it's not in continuity...how do we know that's even the real Watcher? It was a parody...not meant to be taken seriously. I heard SG's next target is the Living Tribunal! She just may have the the power to take the three-headed fool down!

I believe it was in GLXmas. It was one of those gag things the writer just threw in because of people trying to mistreat Thanos over the years i.e. having Ka-Zar beat him, or Thor, so he had SG take him down and then had a watcher show up and get rid of any possible explanation, especially the ones used in the past, so now it's just concidered O.o.C. It was basically chalked up to a What If

Alan2099

08-16-2006, 05:30 PM

I believe it was in GLXmas. It was one of those gag things the writer just threw in because of people trying to mistreat Thanos over the years i.e. having Ka-Zar beat him, or Thor, so he had SG take him down and then had a watcher show up and get rid of any possible explanation, especially the ones used in the past, so now it's just concidered O.o.C. It was basically chalked up to a What If
On teh contrary, I think it had to do with people NEVER being able to get a win over Thanos and every time it happen, Starlin retcons it.

I haven't seen anybody that chalks it up as a What if? either. It happened. Thanos lost.

It's no big deal Squirrel girl has a record for taking down huge villians by herself.

chrono727

08-16-2006, 06:43 PM

On teh contrary, I think it had to do with people NEVER being able to get a win over Thanos and every time it happen, Starlin retcons it.

I haven't seen anybody that chalks it up as a What if? either. It happened. Thanos lost.

It's no big deal Squirrel girl has a record for taking down huge villians by herself.

The whole Squirrel girl thing is nonsense fun but nonsense....And I agree that some do want Thanos to lose....But he has lost in the past just not the way people want to see it I guess....

overcomebyfumes

08-17-2006, 12:12 AM

Can anyone post the panel of Thanos being arrested by the NYPD in that Spider-Man comic? I've seen it posted here, but I don't know what issue it comes from.

Makes me laugh my ass off every time I sees it, tho.

Expletive Deleted

08-17-2006, 07:16 AM

On teh contrary, I think it had to do with people NEVER being able to get a win over Thanos and every time it happen, Starlin retcons it.

I haven't seen anybody that chalks it up as a What if? either. It happened. Thanos lost.

It's no big deal Squirrel girl has a record for taking down huge villians by herself.What Alan said.

The dialogue is a jab at Starlin's silly Doombot-ization of Thanos's defeats (ie. any Thanos story he didn't write), GLX is still in continuity, and beating the unbeatable with nothing but nutty pluck is Squirrel Girl's schtick.

Tommy

08-17-2006, 08:57 AM

Cthulhudrew

08-17-2006, 09:30 AM

The dialogue is a jab at Starlin's silly Doombot-ization of Thanos's defeats (ie. any Thanos story he didn't write), GLX is still in continuity, and beating the unbeatable with nothing but nutty pluck is Squirrel Girl's schtick.

"Nothing but nutty pluck"? Are you so quickly forgetting that she has a nut-sack as well? Batman's utility belt has nothing on SG's nut-sack. :evilsmile

agrich

08-17-2006, 02:25 PM

Originally, Adam was just a regular person really (as far as Prefect Regular Humans go) and before all that stupid Weapon X/Plus/whatever nonsense, the Super-Soldier program consisted of about five guys and was conducted out of what looked like someone's basement. Plus the Beehive was a lot more technologically advanced than you're giving them credit for.

If Warlock was just supposed to be a regular person, albeit perfect, then how was he able to wipe out the technologially advanced Beehive? Not to mention go toe-to-toe with Thor for a bit? Obviously he was always intended to have some sort of cosmic abilities.

Where they "went wrong" with the character was, yes, setting him up as Jesus on Counter-Earth. It was a fairly trite and weak allegory that didn't sell and was scrapped after a mere 8 issues (10 if you include Marvel Premiere 1 and 2). The premise made sense - a naive, impressionable, and inexperienced being meets "God" (The High Evolutionary) and decides to aid him - but the execution was poor. It could have been okay if they hadn't felt the need to directly parallel the life of Christ right through to him being crucified. Anyway, since that series didn't sell and was cancelled, it's hard to blame Starlin for taking the character in a different direction.

As for Starlin's original run on the character, which I'm obviously kind of fond of, I strongly disagree with any assessment of the character as "snotty." Tortured, conflicted, self-destructive...I dunno, all those descriptions work better for me.

The Warlock who was brought back by Starlin in the '90s, I agree, was a bit harder to like/empathize with. Especially because he got so sadly overexposed - two titles of his own, with continually changing artists, tons of guest stars, and all those damn Infnity crossovers. A classic example of how even good ideas became overused and destroyed in the '90s.

It's true the character drifted quite a bit from what Stan and Jack originally created, but it's not like the character could have continued for long as a relatively thoughtless golden being who went around trying to steal characters' girlfriends or whatever. They took him one way with the Counter-Earth mess, Starlin took him another, and obviously a lot of people liked it -- judging by the fact that we're even talking about it.

Guts/Batman

08-17-2006, 02:40 PM

Edit: And Thanos has always been the poor-man's Darkseid.

Darkseid and Thanos carry different roles in their universes. It is stupid to compare the two.

Lord S

08-17-2006, 04:20 PM

On teh contrary, I think it had to do with people NEVER being able to get a win over Thanos and every time it happen, Starlin retcons it. Well personally I have no problem with someone like Thor getting a win over Thanos, as he has regularly beaten guys that are as strong, or stronger (Surter, Ymir, etc), than Thanos. But Ka-Zar? How the hell can anyone justify an unbathed Tarzan wannabe, physically going toe-to-toe with, and beating someone like Thanos? What was the writer thinking?

Christopher O

08-17-2006, 05:19 PM

Darkseid and Thanos carry different roles in their universes. It is stupid to compare the two.
It's not stupid at all. Regardless of their "roles," they have very similar characteristics.

Guts/Batman

08-17-2006, 08:02 PM

It's not stupid at all. Regardless of their "roles," they have very similar characteristics.

Well...

Metron is a hall of a lot more like Thanos than Darkseid is. Darkseid is much more comparable to Mephisto.

Yes, both are domineering, superpowerful beings who are total bastards in the search for the means for total power. That's all they have in common.

Then again, I don't respect Post-CoiE Darkseid in any shape or form. The only true Darkseid is Pre-CoiE Darkseid.

Joe Acro

08-17-2006, 08:28 PM

Well...

Metron is a hall of a lot more like Thanos than Darkseid is. Darkseid is much more comparable to Mephisto.

Yes, both are domineering, superpowerful beings who are total bastards in the search for the means for total power. That's all they have in common.

Then again, I don't respect Post-CoiE Darkseid in any shape or form. The only true Darkseid is Pre-CoiE Darkseid.
There's something wrong with comparing Metron to Thanos. There's something wrong with comparing Darkseid to Mephisto. I kind of see both of them, but I don't at the same time.

Darkseid and Thanos, I would say, are equal in power level. Darkseid has sought the Anti-Life Equation. Thanos has sought such powerful items such as the Cosmic Cube and Infinity Gems. They both wear blue (usually). Both act in their own self-interest. We never really know what either one is thinking or planning. They both occassionally like to conquer things/places. They have dealt with their respect universes' Earths' mightest heroes. They've both been seemingly killed or made immovable.

chrono727

08-17-2006, 08:30 PM

On teh contrary, I think it had to do with people NEVER being able to get a win over Thanos and every time it happen, Starlin retcons it.

Lets look at it this way...If you made a badass character and someone else came in and tried to make your hard work look as wack and as lame, and one dimensional as possible wouldn't you erase that vision if you had the chance?

The people writing Thanos in that god awful Celestial Quest and that Thor mini did not follow character development at all. They used the Thanos of the 70's template and didn't bother to implement any of the tendencies of the character. Much like the fact Spiderman can beat Firelord yet the Avengers look at him like a noob!?! This is SPIDERMAN! The man has done more than over half the Avengers that ever was on the team....Yet he gets treated like the Avengers version of Cannonball....

I can't blame the man for having to fix crummy writing dealt to one of his best characters....I wish someone would do that with Spidey.

Expletive Deleted

08-17-2006, 08:39 PM

It is stupid to compare the two.As soon as they stop being evil, stocky, stonefaced cosmic badasses in skirts . . . we'll stop, honest.

Guts/Batman

08-17-2006, 08:39 PM

There's something wrong with comparing Metron to Thanos. There's something wrong with comparing Darkseid to Mephisto. I kind of see both of them, but I don't at the same time.

Yes, they do have some differences. More similarities than Thanos/Darkseid do it seems to me. Metron may not be as physically powerful as Thanos is but for the most part, his actions are more similar to Thanos' than Darkseid's are outside of the standard comic book villainy...

Mephisto and Darkseid may not be on the same power level, but they have a lot more similarities than Thanos and Darkseid do...

Darkseid and Thanos, I would say, are equal in power level. Darkseid has sought the Anti-Life Equation. Thanos has sought such powerful items such as the Cosmic Cube and Infinity Gems. They both wear blue (usually). Both act in their own self-interest. We never really know what either one is thinking or planning. They both occassionally like to conquer things/places. They have dealt with their respect universes' Earths' mightest heroes. They've both been seemingly killed or made immovable.

I agree with the power level. Darkseid and Thanos SHOULD be equal in power but DC writers and editors have nerfed Darkseid over the at least the last 10 or so odd years. Even so to the point where Superman physically punks him, after Darkseid hides in the Kent's home to surprise Superman...

But the rest of that is standard villain-fare. Almost all villains do that. Unless you are Doc Light, of course...

Guts/Batman

08-17-2006, 08:41 PM

As soon as they stop being evil, stocky, stonefaced cosmic badasses in skirts . . . we'll stop, honest.

This is true.

Okay...my argument that it is stupid to be comparing them is wrong. I can see that, but I just don't see them being all that similar...

Alan2099

08-17-2006, 08:48 PM

Lets look at it this way...If you made a badass character and someone else came in and tried to make your hard work look as wack and as lame, and one dimensional as possible wouldn't you erase that vision if you had the chance?

The people writing Thanos in that god awful Celestial Quest and that Thor mini did not follow character development at all. They used the Thanos of the 70's template and didn't bother to implement any of the tendencies of the character. Much like the fact Spiderman can beat Firelord yet the Avengers look at him like a noob!?! This is SPIDERMAN! The man has done more than over half the Avengers that ever was on the team....Yet he gets treated like the Avengers version of Cannonball....

I can't blame the man for having to fix crummy writing dealt to one of his best characters....I wish someone would do that with Spidey.
What you call character development for Thanos, I call character loss. he doesn't actually do anything anymore except plot. The guy doesn't even have anything to plot for. He's just plotting and getting more powerful, occassionally going after some all-new source of infinite power for no established reason.

Thanos has gotten too big for his britches. If I had created a character that used to be intresting, but then got carried away with, I'd expect people to try to take him back to when he actually was good.

Jeff-E

08-18-2006, 05:16 AM

He hasn't really gone after an infinite powersource since the Gauntlet affair. Yes in the GLX thing he had the "pyramatrix" or what ever it was but that ignored recent character developments. Also what people seem to forget is that in his first appearances he went toe to toe with Thor and the Thing in hand to hand combat, and yes while he did have posession of the Soul/Infinity gems, it was external he wasn't using them on his person he had them wired up in a "cannon". I personally like the changes over the years and I would like to see where he's going next. I'd really like to see his series be renewed, but used more like the second six issues as opposed to the first six. Yes I'm biased (I have the cover of Infinity Gauntlet 4 tattooed on my back) but this is a character I really like, and just hate to see him abused i.e. GlX, getting arrested. I love the old 70's space stories where he and Warlock ran around together and fought 25,000 religious zealots on homeworld ("ah, memories that never were") and would love to see a return to this kind of action, just with his more current attitude. Thanos as one of the universe's great powers just trying to find his place among things no longer obsessed with death, but still trying to figure out where he belongs.

chrono727

08-18-2006, 05:38 AM

What you call character development for Thanos, I call character loss. he doesn't actually do anything anymore except plot. The guy doesn't even have anything to plot for. He's just plotting and getting more powerful, occassionally going after some all-new source of infinite power for no established reason.

Thanos has gotten too big for his britches. If I had created a character that used to be intresting, but then got carried away with, I'd expect people to try to take him back to when he actually was good.

But see I think the opposite....I think the old Thanos was 1 dimensional and if he remained that way the Darkseid ripoff opinions would be more valid. Like I have said on another thread Thanos is a demi-god....We can't hold his character to the same standard as you would Surfer or some other cosmic character. There is a big difference from being a demi-god and a powerful cosmic being. Gods tend to have their own motives and those motives are not meant to be known or understood....He is a Titan...and I think they are treating him like one. That is why he took on fallen one as a herald....it's not like he NEEDS one....but it amused him to do so.

He has gone from regular villain to what he was supposed to be in the first place....cosmic demi-god. From the Stranger, Elders, Celestials and other "cosmic gods" they all plot, scheme, and do things for no established reason like Thanos, but that is what "gods" do in Marvel. You can write reasons later on...

Alan2099

08-18-2006, 06:33 AM

Thanos isn't a god, unless you want to argue that Starlin made him one. He's just an eternal.

overcomebyfumes

08-18-2006, 06:44 AM

It is only considered OOC or a What If? by people who can't take a joke. But as of Cable & Deadpool #30 it is in continuity.

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/2058/img0141vy2fyqw4.th.jpg (http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0141vy2fyqw4.jpg) http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/4822/img0151uw1gdoy8.th.jpg (http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0151uw1gdoy8.jpg)

Thanks for posting those! I had only seen the one panel before with Thanos being arrested; I hadn't seen the rest of the page or the page previous. Thanks.

That just... what were they thinking?

Joe Acro

08-18-2006, 08:34 AM

He hasn't really gone after an infinite powersource since the Gauntlet affair.
What about him destroying the universe using the Heart of the Universe? I mean, he didn't really seek it, but he did want its power. With cunning and skill, he stole it from Akhenaten, shaped it so that that guy never existed, and after defeating several cosmic beings, destroyed the universe.

chrono727

08-18-2006, 02:21 PM

Thanos isn't a god, unless you want to argue that Starlin made him one. He's just an eternal.

With all the augmentation of power he has given himself through the centuries he is hardy "just an eternal".

Here is a quote to explain my why I call him a Demi God....

"The HBOTMU Book of the Dead openly states that Thanos had increased his own innate durability to a level exceeding even that of the deceased Zuras, former leader of the Earth Eternals, and the mightiest of their race. Since Thanos, for all intents and purposes, possesses most of the traits associated with Earth Eternals as opposed to the Titans, for reasons of clarification I will refer to those Eternals who possess the cosmic life-force as Cosmic Eternals. Thanos obviously fits into this category."

Not to mention that this Thanos was restored by Death and given even more power than in his previous incarnation.....On top of whatever power he has gained for himself since his resurrection.

Jeff-E

08-18-2006, 04:03 PM

What about him destroying the universe using the Heart of the Universe? I mean, he didn't really seek it, but he did want its power. With cunning and skill, he stole it from Akhenaten, shaped it so that that guy never existed, and after defeating several cosmic beings, destroyed the universe.

He more or less did that to prevent the power from falling in to less capable hands.

Jeff-E

08-18-2006, 04:05 PM

With all the augmentation of power he has given himself through the centuries he is hardy "just an eternal".

Here is a quote to explain my why I call him a Demi God....

"The HBOTMU Book of the Dead openly states that Thanos had increased his own innate durability to a level exceeding even that of the deceased Zuras, former leader of the Earth Eternals, and the mightiest of their race. Since Thanos, for all intents and purposes, possesses most of the traits associated with Earth Eternals as opposed to the Titans, for reasons of clarification I will refer to those Eternals who possess the cosmic life-force as Cosmic Eternals. Thanos obviously fits into this category."

Not to mention that this Thanos was restored by Death and given even more power than in his previous incarnation.....On top of whatever power he has gained for himself since his resurrection.

remember he was also cursed by death to never die, as well as oblivion so he can't even be erased from existence.

Joe Acro

08-18-2006, 04:06 PM

He more or less did that to prevent the power from falling in to less capable hands.
Well, mostly, but I believe he destroyed the universe just for the satisfaction.

chrono727

08-18-2006, 06:49 PM

Well, mostly, but I believe he destroyed the universe just for the satisfaction.
Actually he didnt have a choice....it was a preset decision created by the being (aka god) where he got his power from....The being left a preset in the power that would have Thanos go mad from anger and destroy the universe to reset it and repair the damage in the multiverse. So he really didn't have a choice...After he did it he realized he had been manipulated...

Joe Acro

08-18-2006, 07:16 PM

Actually he didnt have a choice....it was a preset decision created by the being (aka god) where he got his power from....The being left a preset in the power that would have Thanos go mad from anger and destroy the universe to reset it and repair the damage in the multiverse. So he really didn't have a choice...After he did it he realized he had been manipulated...
So, God wanted him to destroy the universe and then re-create it exactly the same? What point does He have in that?

Kyle_Ion

08-18-2006, 07:22 PM

No i say we leave Warlock alone, I have never liked Warlock even though I read the infinity crusade, the infinity gauntlet, the infinity war. I read those books because of the other characters there in the stories and I can't stand him.

chrono727

08-18-2006, 07:49 PM

So, God wanted him to destroy the universe and then re-create it exactly the same? What point does He have in that?

Well the story goes is that all the ressurections and rebirths in the marvel u was destroying the multiverse and despite even having seemingly ultimate power he nor Thanos could fix it. Apparently it was rigged that reality had to be destroyed and re-created to insure it's repair....Thanos was chosen cause that was his destiny to take that power and do what he did....He had no choice really. He was led along the whole way. So now "supposedly" if you die in the MU you stay dead....:rolleyes:

At least that was the plan...

Lord S

08-18-2006, 11:47 PM

Well the story goes is that all the ressurections and rebirths in the marvel u was destroying the multiverse and despite even having seemingly ultimate power he nor Thanos could fix it. Apparently it was rigged that reality had to be destroyed and re-created to insure it's repair....Thanos was chosen cause that was his destiny to take that power and do what he did....He had no choice really. He was led along the whole way. So now "supposedly" if you die in the MU you stay dead....:rolleyes:

At least that was the plan... Honestly, I didn't see any mention of the multiverse in that story. It was strictly the universe...now which universe that was, I don't know. I, (like pretty much everyone else), had always assumed it was 616...but I guess not. (Wikipedia says Universe-4321)

Butch Mapa

08-19-2006, 03:05 AM

Uhm, for those of us who haven't followed the character...

What has Warlock been up to since the Infinity minis? :) Where was he seen last anyway?

steve2275

08-19-2006, 04:18 AM

Don't make me post the scans of Thanos getting his ass kicked by seven year old!
*chants* do it do it

Joe Acro

08-19-2006, 08:50 AM

Uhm, for those of us who haven't followed the character...

What has Warlock been up to since the Infinity minis? :) Where was he seen last anyway?
He was last seen in Infinity Abyss.

Honestly, I didn't see any mention of the multiverse in that story. It was strictly the universe...now which universe that was, I don't know. I, (like pretty much everyone else), had always assumed it was 616...but I guess not. (Wikipedia says Universe-4321)
And the Handbook article (though not truly reliable, it's about as good as Wikipedia) doesn't mention that the events occurred in an alternate universe. Again, I suppose, we'll ahve to wait for the official word.

agrich

08-19-2006, 09:46 AM

He was last seen in Infinity Abyss.

After that he was in the Marvel Universe: The End series, followed by the first 6 issue-arc of the Thanos series.

I've been told here that that the "The End" series is out of continuity, but that doesn't really make sense considering Thanos and Warlock talk about it early in the Thanos series, which is in continuity.

Joe Acro

08-19-2006, 12:17 PM

After that he was in the Marvel Universe: The End series, followed by the first 6 issue-arc of the Thanos series.

I've been told here that that the "The End" series is out of continuity, but that doesn't really make sense considering Thanos and Warlock talk about it early in the Thanos series, which is in continuity.
As already mentioned, some of the events that happened in The End parallel those that actually happened at...some...time... I didn't buy either mag, but thank you for revealing that he has also been seen in Thanos.

Was that before or after Infinity Abyss?

XPac

08-19-2006, 12:22 PM

As already mentioned, some of the events that happened in The End parallel those that actually happened at...some...time... I didn't buy either mag, but thank you for revealing that he has also been seen in Thanos.

Was that before or after Infinity Abyss?

If events that parallel The End actually occured, then why not simply say THE END occured? Am I missing something here?

Tommy

08-19-2006, 12:44 PM

*chants* do it do it
I did a couple of pages ago…

Thanks for posting those! I had only seen the one panel before with Thanos being arrested; I hadn't seen the rest of the page or the page previous. Thanks.

That just... what were they thinking?

Well since you like it so much… First the Thanocopter…

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6200/img0055sz6egod7.jpg

Now the third to last page from that comic…

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1580/img0133xa7txoa4.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0133xa7txoa4.jpg)

Joe Acro

08-19-2006, 01:39 PM

This is some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen. I'd be mad if this kind of stuff happened to a character I created. I fully support that retcon.

XPac

08-19-2006, 05:22 PM

This is some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen. I'd be mad if this kind of stuff happened to a character I created. I fully support that retcon.

Ya don't think Starlin liked the Thano-copter?

I thought that was kinda cool... it had his name on the side and everything.

Alan2099

08-19-2006, 05:36 PM

This is some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen. I'd be mad if this kind of stuff happened to a character I created. I fully support that retcon.
Actually, that wasn't in continuity either, but it should be. :p

Still, there's no reason to be mad. That's just the way the game works when you create a character for marvel or DC. You basically get to play with him for a while and then somebody else comes along and plays with him for a while then somebody else, etc etc. The next time you get to play with the character again, it might be somebody totally different.

Starlin just ignore anything anybody else did. You could play up on the Thanos that loses to Ka-zar or Thor. Maybe it's part of a larger plot by Thanos. Maybe Thanos is losing his power and doesn't want to admit it. There's countless stories that could be told from that direction. Starlin just skips it and says nothing happenes since the last time he wrote the character.

XPac

08-19-2006, 05:51 PM

Actually, that wasn't in continuity either, but it should be. :p

Still, there's no reason to be mad. That's just the way the game works when you create a character for marvel or DC. You basically get to play with him for a while and then somebody else comes along and plays with him for a while then somebody else, etc etc. The next time you get to play with the character again, it might be somebody totally different.

Starlin just ignore anything anybody else did. You could play up on the Thanos that loses to Ka-zar or Thor. Maybe it's part of a larger plot by Thanos. Maybe Thanos is losing his power and doesn't want to admit it. There's countless stories that could be told from that direction. Starlin just skips it and says nothing happenes since the last time he wrote the character.

I'll disagree with that and say THEY ignored him.

He had the character evolve to the point where he would stop trying to destroy the unverse, but other writers without explanation would return him to that.

But rather than ignoring what those other writers did, he'd retcon the differing views so they all fit. I do agree that Starlin is very protective of the Thanos character... but that said if other writers ignore a characters evolution without explanation then they are basically asking for their work to be retconned.

Alan2099

08-19-2006, 06:15 PM

Joe Acro

08-19-2006, 07:39 PM

Thanos if writer are trying to change the character, the've been trying to change him to a character that actually works.
As clearly seen by the story above.:rolleyes:

XPac

08-19-2006, 07:50 PM

The problem there is Thanos doesn't DO anything other than try to conqour the Universe. Starlin himself has had Thanos go, "No. I've learned what Godhood is like and decided I don't want -- ooooh! New Uberpowerful plot devise to make me the strongest thing every! I must have it!" half a dozen times himself.

Thanos if writer are trying to change the character, the've been trying to change him to a character that actually works.

Thanos's new character worked well enough to get him several mini series and finally his own monthly there for a bit. So I'd say the direction Starlin took the character WAS working.

Wanting power is not the same thing as trying to destroy the universe. His motives changed, but the other writers ignored that. Seeking power to protect one's self or to keep it from someone elses hands is obviously very different from the pre-IG Thanos.

The Infinity Gauntlet and it's other sequals were huge company wide crossovers, and yet the actual repurcusions were ignored. To me that was bad writing that justifed retcons.

DoctorDoom

08-19-2006, 10:03 PM

Joe Acro

08-19-2006, 10:07 PM

Not sure if this has been directly mentioned, but Thanos' losses to Thor, Ka-zar, and the Avengers Celestial caga crap were explained as being clones in the mini Infinity Abyss, which would also explain the GLX Thanos joke.
I think that's what people are complaining about. And, no, that doesn't explain GLX because Uatu covers that one. However, I'd retcon it by saying she dreamed it and came to believe it. It's plausible enough.

XPac

08-19-2006, 10:41 PM

I think that's what people are complaining about. And, no, that doesn't explain GLX because Uatu covers that one. However, I'd retcon it by saying she dreamed it and came to believe it. It's plausible enough.

No retcon needed. It's Squirel Girl afterall.

DoctorDoom

08-20-2006, 10:04 AM

Mr.Musgrave

08-21-2006, 07:48 AM

TheMadTitan

08-21-2006, 08:32 AM

Thanos is like Apocalypse. They're scary because they're written to be scary. None of them have done anything of any lasting repercussion and yet everyone is supposed to crap themselves when they show up. Yeah, Thanos defeated the Elders...but they got better. And Thanos killed half the universe...and it got better too. When you get down to it, Starlin successfully created the worlds most unsuccessful stalker. He's grasping at straws trying to keep Thanos a badass. Something he never really was to begin with. He's just a purple faced stalker in a skirt.

Okay Apocalypse I agree with he has never done much to prove the hype but...

Thanos with the aid of Mangog killed 88 million Rigellians (Nova corps handbook), He also put Galactus on his ass (Galactus was weakened) he put beyonder in a coma, managed to fight Tyrant to a standstill, managed to fight Odin to a standstill in ASGARD! pimp slapped drax and hulk to the floor at once. Stopped Thors hammer just by putting his hand up. Fought a warriors madness and power gem enhanced Thor to a stanstill (after thor beat the infinity watch,surfer and strange at once) etc etc..

So yes he has a purple face, he is kind of a stalker, he sometimes wears a skirt - but he is still the most badass villain out there!

Mr.Musgrave

08-21-2006, 08:55 AM

And most of that it Starlin approved non-sense. Thanos isn't a cosmic being and there's no discernible reason he should be able to do most that. He's only the " most badass villain out there" when Starlin is at the helm. The rest of the time he's just a stalker in a skirt. Starlin is what the role-playing community would call a "power gamer" when it comes to Thanos. He can do anything because Starlin wants him to be "he most badass villain out there." There's no difference between what Starlin does with Thanos and what other writers do with Squirrel Girl. Thanos just has a better PR agent.

XPac

08-21-2006, 09:20 AM

Thanos is like Apocalypse. They're scary because they're written to be scary. None of them have done anything of any lasting repercussion and yet everyone is supposed to crap themselves when they show up. Yeah, Thanos defeated the Elders...but they got better. And Thanos killed half the universe...and it got better too. When you get down to it, Starlin successfully created the worlds most unsuccessful stalker. He's grasping at straws trying to keep Thanos a badass. Something he never really was to begin with. He's just a purple faced stalker in a skirt.

No villain can ever truelly have lasting repercussions. Because villians ultimately HAVE to lose.

But what seperates villians like Doom and Thanos from most others is they way they do it. On occasion they're able to prove that they are both MORE capabel and competent than the heroes, and losing is almost more a choice on their part rather than the result of the heroes beating them.

That's what makes them scary. Because they do a better job retaining the illusion that they can beat the goodguys (even though we know they won't) moreso than almost any villians out there.

Joe Acro

08-21-2006, 09:23 AM

But what seperates villians like Doom and Thanos from most others is they way they do it. On occasion they're able to prove that they are both MORE capabel and competent than the heroes, and losing is almost more a choice on their part rather than the result of the heroes beating them.

That's what makes them scary. Because they do a better job retaining the illusion that they can beat the goodguys (even though we know they won't) moreso than almost any villians out there.
At one time, Apocalypse could have been put in there. But ever since The Twelve...

Mr.Musgrave

08-21-2006, 09:34 AM

No villain can ever truelly have lasting repercussions. Because villians ultimately HAVE to lose.

But what seperates villians like Doom and Thanos from most others is they way they do it. On occasion they're able to prove that they are both MORE capabel and competent than the heroes, and losing is almost more a choice on their part rather than the result of the heroes beating them.

That's what makes them scary. Because they do a better job retaining the illusion that they can beat the goodguys (even though we know they won't) moreso than almost any villians out there.

I understand that, I just don't find Thanos to be interesting. For all his power and accomplishments, Doom is a flawed character. He's interesting to read about because at the end of the day he still puts on his iron pants one leg at a time. The way Starlin writes Thanos he goes out every morning, has his coffee, beats up Galactus, and takes HIS pants. The forced flaw of "he subconsciously sets himself up to lose" is just that...forced. It's meant to make him more interesting but it just doesn't.

chrono727

08-21-2006, 01:42 PM

I understand that, I just don't find Thanos to be interesting. For all his power and accomplishments, Doom is a flawed character. He's interesting to read about because at the end of the day he still puts on his iron pants one leg at a time. The way Starlin writes Thanos he goes out every morning, has his coffee, beats up Galactus, and takes HIS pants. The forced flaw of "he subconsciously sets himself up to lose" is just that...forced. It's meant to make him more interesting but it just doesn't.

Interesting opinion you have about "forced" flaw....By your own description Doom is saddled with the same flaw, but I guess him being human you consider him interesting. Odd...Most every major villain should not lose their encounters with heroes, but do so because of their "forced" flaws....Talking too much instead of killing, Not caring about that weaker hero who later saves the day ect ect....You don't like Thanos I get that....but please you can come up with something better than he seems "forced" Every villain is "forced" and uninteresting by your example.

Every writer who loves whatever character they are writing will take liberties with them hero or villain.....So your accessment of Starlin and his writing is pretty much describing damn near every writer. And Thanos not cosmic? Did you read any old Captain Marvel or Avengers stuff Thanos was in? Im not hating on your opinion I disagree, but I respect it. But your reasoning is very broad and commonplace....And for not thinking Thanos is interesting your spending a lot of time telling us how uninteresting he is....;)

Mr.Musgrave

08-21-2006, 02:40 PM

Interesting opinion you have about "forced" flaw....By your own description Doom is saddled with the same flaw

You're missing my point. He supposedly has a flaw where he subconsciously defeats himself. Why does he have that flaw? Because he needed one since Starlin writes him as more powerful than any other being out there. He has a flaw only because he needed one. That is why it's forced. Doom has the flaw of a massive ego. But it's a part of his character. He's written as an egomaniac. Thanos isn't written as someone with an internal struggle where he causes himself to lose. He's written as an unstoppable powerhouse who would never ever lose if he didn't have that flaw forced upon him. That's why he's uninteresting. Starlin writes him as being so powerful he should never lose. The only reason he DOES lose is because he has to so they give him this "flaw" that almost breaks the fourth wall in its absurdity.

As far as him being cosmic: Why is he cosmic? He's just another guy from Titan. Where did he get this supreme power? Why does he have it? Because Starlin said so, that's why. That's entirely boring. I understand showing favoritism to a character you've created but with Starlin it seems he's become his own fanboy.

Lord S

08-21-2006, 03:12 PM

If events that parallel The End actually occured, then why not simply say THE END occured? Am I missing something here? You're right on the money. I asked Andy Schmidt this question, and...well, go check out the answer for yourself. (I think it's on page 20 or so of the big thread). Basically what I was able to glean was that calling 'Marvel: The End' canon would hurt the feelings of guys like Chris Claremont, and the other writers, cause their stories were not. I say whatever.

Jeff-E

08-21-2006, 03:30 PM

You're missing my point. He supposedly has a flaw where he subconsciously defeats himself. Why does he have that flaw? Because he needed one since Starlin writes him as more powerful than any other being out there. He has a flaw only because he needed one. That is why it's forced. Doom has the flaw of a massive ego. But it's a part of his character. He's written as an egomaniac. Thanos isn't written as someone with an internal struggle where he causes himself to lose. He's written as an unstoppable powerhouse who would never ever lose if he didn't have that flaw forced upon him. That's why he's uninteresting. Starlin writes him as being so powerful he should never lose. The only reason he DOES lose is because he has to so they give him this "flaw" that almost breaks the fourth wall in its absurdity.

As far as him being cosmic: Why is he cosmic? He's just another guy from Titan. Where did he get this supreme power? Why does he have it? Because Starlin said so, that's why. That's entirely boring. I understand showing favoritism to a character you've created but with Starlin it seems he's become his own fanboy.

He's cosmic because a) He's a demi-god literally. He is the grandson of Kronos the god of time. b) he's augmented his powers through various "cosmic" means through out the years c) he's been "cursed" by cosmic beings i.e. Death and Oblivion and technically the curses haven't been lifted d) He fights battles on a cosmic scale e) he has no permanent home, he just travels through the cosmos, kind of like Quasar used to so that qualifies him as a cosmic character f) He stands out side the realms of Chaos and Order and is part of the celestial balance, with Adam Warlock as his balance.

You are partially right he is supposed to be a totally unstopable powerhouse. That's why they gave him the flaw of basically doubting his own self worth, and helping lead to his own demise. He's kind of like an "evil" version of Superman, for the longest time he had no real weakness then they gave him kryptonite and magic so there would be something that could defeat him. However "magic" titan rock would be stupid for Thanos to be affected by. Why is he so powerfull, and unstoppable, because your villians have to be bigger, stronger, and meaner than your hero's or else it's uninteresting. We all know in the end Thanos will loose, but because he's so unstoppable we (the fans of the character) are interested in how it's going to happen. This is the same reason I don't read Batman and Superman comics anymore, the same reasons you gave. They are so unstoppable, and godlike its just laughable that anyone really thinks they are going to get one over on Sup's or Bat's.

chrono727

08-21-2006, 03:37 PM

You're missing my point. He supposedly has a flaw where he subconsciously defeats himself. Why does he have that flaw? Because he needed one since Starlin writes him as more powerful than any other being out there. He has a flaw only because he needed one. That is why it's forced. Doom has the flaw of a massive ego. But it's a part of his character. He's written as an egomaniac. Thanos isn't written as someone with an internal struggle where he causes himself to lose. He's written as an unstoppable powerhouse who would never ever lose if he didn't have that flaw forced upon him. That's why he's uninteresting. Starlin writes him as being so powerful he should never lose. The only reason he DOES lose is because he has to so they give him this "flaw" that almost breaks the fourth wall in its absurdity.

As far as him being cosmic: Why is he cosmic? He's just another guy from Titan. Where did he get this supreme power? Why does he have it? Because Starlin said so, that's why. That's entirely boring. I understand showing favoritism to a character you've created but with Starlin it seems he's become his own fanboy.

As for the cosmic thing again read up on it...Captain Marvel and other books. My point is you are generalizing....EVERY character has a flaw written in to keep them from being unstoppable....Thanos came out the box a powerhouse and that is how he is and should be written. I could see if he came out "just a guy from Titan" which he did not. Doom without some writer giving him arrogance as his flaw would never lose either. Magneto would not lose without a flaw. There is no villain ever created by marvel that does not have that "flaw" written in to keep him for succeeding almost everytime. Starlin doing it bores you so why doesn't anyone else doing the same thing to other villains?

You seem to not know enough of Thanos's backstory or you know just enough to speak about it....Otherwise you wouldn't have wrote he's just a "guy from Titan". Starlin takes care of his characters when he writes them...Im not going to say the guy is perfect in doing so, but he is not unique in doing so. Thanos is not human....he does not have a kingdom to rule...a family to go home too none of the things you require to gain your "interest". Galactus doesn't have these things nor does any other cosmic beings.....You don't read about them to see Galactus and Thanos struggle with the morgage this month, you read to see them do what cosmic beings do.

Mr.Musgrave

08-21-2006, 04:04 PM

Doom without some writer giving him arrogance as his flaw would never lose either.

And once again, Doom is written as a flawed character right out of the box. His arrogance is a part of his origin story. It's what shapes him. Thanos was written as unstoppable right out of the box and remained so until they realized that he needed a flaw. His flaw was forced on him because he was a silly character to begin with. Just like Superman used to be. And at least Superman's weakness has been explored.

Starlin doing it bores you so why doesn't anyone else doing the same thing to other villains?

Because Starlin refuses to let him progress as a character. Anything done outside of "Thanos is a death-stalking power-monger" is retconned because, as I said, Starlin has become his own fanboy. That in itself is lame. Why read about someone who obviously can't be stopped by any other means than an internal struggle that's never been explored? It's repetative and boring.

Thanos is not human....he does not have a kingdom to rule...a family to go home too none of the things you require to gain your "interest". Galactus doesn't have these things nor does any other cosmic beings.....You don't read about them to see Galactus and Thanos struggle with the morgage this month, you read to see them do what cosmic beings do.

You're right. Thanos does nothing that's interesting to me. His plotting to rule the universe was interesting the first fourteen times. It's time to try something new. But Starlin never lets anything new happen. All of his stories are the same. Big Bad Thanos is trying to take over while kissing death's bony butt. That's why he's a watered-down Darkseid. Darkseid is unstoppable but it's the people around him and his subjects that make the stories interesting.

And you're right, Galactus isn't interesting. He's a force of nature. It's the people dealing with Galactus that make the story interesting. But Thanos isn't written that way. Thanos is painfully one dimensional. Just like Apocalypse. He's never done anything of long lasting importance but everyone shakes when he shows up. Why? "Just because."

XPac

08-21-2006, 04:18 PM

You're right on the money. I asked Andy Schmidt this question, and...well, go check out the answer for yourself. (I think it's on page 20 or so of the big thread). Basically what I was able to glean was that calling 'Marvel: The End' canon would hurt the feelings of guys like Chris Claremont, and the other writers, cause their stories were not. I say whatever.

I tried digging through that thread but it's massive. But I'll take your word for it.

It is weird though... I guess maybe they should have found a different title for the series than THE END. Who knew Claremonts feelings would be hurt over something like that.

Lord S

08-21-2006, 04:25 PM

It's time to try something new. But Starlin never lets anything new happen. All of his stories are the same. Big Bad Thanos is trying to take over while kissing death's bony butt. That's why he's a watered-down Darkseid. Darkseid is unstoppable but it's the people around him and his subjects that make the stories interesting. So that's why you're trolling around here? You have nothing of substance to add to the discussion...everything you've said has just come full circle back to your original flame-baiting of 'Thanos is a ripoff of Darkseid'. Yet you clearly know absolutely nothing of the direction the character has taken in recent years...nor do you even make the effort to know.

Thanos does nothing that's interesting to me. Well remind yourself of how uninterested you are in the character next time you concoct another half a dozen or so posts, dedicated to him.

I tried digging through that thread but it's massive. But I'll take your word for it. Check on page 6.

Expletive Deleted

08-21-2006, 04:58 PM

Talk about comics, not each other.

Thanks.

Guts/Batman

08-21-2006, 05:55 PM

It's starting to drag as I want to see more of the Warlord. But I'm keeping with it. My eyes are getting better at accepting the art the first time I read it.

Mr.Musgrave

08-21-2006, 07:50 PM

Note: If I wasn't trying to learn about Thanos and Warlock I wouldn't be having these conversations. I don't even dislike Thanos, he just doesn't make much sense to me as he is. He could be really cool but he's so mired in "standard issue" he bores me.

Jus' talkin' 'bout comics.:cool:

agrich

08-21-2006, 08:13 PM

Your assessment of Thanos is simply out of date. The "flaw" you talk of was dealt with in Infinity Gauntlet. Warlock brought it to Thanos' attention, Thanos grudgingly recognized it, and that was it.

In Infinity War, he joined up with Warlock to stop the Magus (again). He betrayed the heroes and all, but he wasn't seeking ultimate power, just trying to stop another from doing so.

Next came Infinity Crusade, which I'm not going to talk about because it sucked. Again, though, it was not a case of Thanos seeking ultimate power or anything.

Then a few years later we had Infinity Abyss. In this, some Thanos clones had run amok, Thanos and Warlock had to stop them, yada yada.

In The End, yes, Thanos gained ultimate power. But he didn't give it up because of some flaw, he gave it up because he destroyed the entire universe and was all alone in empty blackness. He saved it because he had no choice.

If you want something different out of the character, progression or whatever, you might have enjoyed where Starlin was going with the character in the Thanos series, The premise of the first 6 issue arc involved Thanos trying to make amends for his misdeeds. Because he's Thanos, his misdeeds were things like destroying worlds, so it's not like he's doing community service or anything. In the arc, he wanted to make amends to the Rigellians for destroying one of their worlds or somesuch, so he had to do so by saving one - from Galactus. Personally I kind of enjoyed it, or at least, I thought it had a good start. (Didn't care for the finish.) But, it was different. No "fatal flaw," no seeking ultimate power, just Thanos seeing whether he could be "good." I don't know, I thought it was interesting.

So basically I don't agree with your criticisms. They seem to rely on not reading anything recent, but reading older stuff and acting like nothing has changed, when in fact it has.

And if Starlin wants to retcon stupid stories like Thanos appearing in Ka-Zar simply because Thanos was so popular then everyone wanted to use him in their books, in line with the Marvel way of the '90s, I personally don't have a problem with that.

Mr.Musgrave

08-21-2006, 08:20 PM

I'll have to see if I can 50 cent box that Thanos series then. Like I said, I'm not setting out to hate him, he just doesn't make my top 20 villains list because I just don't get him.

Reptisaurus!

08-21-2006, 08:28 PM

Actually that's not fact both characters came from another template Starlin had designed, but never used.

Starlin disagrees with you.

And (Jack) Kirby (creator of Darkseid) has generally avoided using anyone else's work if he could help it.

According to his interview in Comic Book Artist, Thanos was originally supposed to be a kind of friendly tribute to Metron of the New Gods, at least in visual appearance if not in personality. In his first few appearances, Thanos is scrawnier 'an has a floating chair, like Metron.

Starlin's editor suggested to beef Thanos up to make him look more like Darkseid saying (Paraphrased) "If you're going to rip off the New Gods, at least borrow from the coolest one."

Which ain't to say that Thanos is ONLY a Darkseid/Metron clone; He's driven by passion, while the New Gods are much more emotionally distant. But there certainly are aspects of Thanos that are kind of a respectful tip 'o the hat to the King.

Lord S

08-21-2006, 09:03 PM

Your assessment of Thanos is simply out of date. The "flaw" you talk of was dealt with in Infinity Gauntlet. Warlock brought it to Thanos' attention, Thanos grudgingly recognized it, and that was it.

In Infinity War, he joined up with Warlock to stop the Magus (again). He betrayed the heroes and all, but he wasn't seeking ultimate power, just trying to stop another from doing so.

Next came Infinity Crusade, which I'm not going to talk about because it sucked. Again, though, it was not a case of Thanos seeking ultimate power or anything.

Then a few years later we had Infinity Abyss. In this, some Thanos clones had run amok, Thanos and Warlock had to stop them, yada yada.

In The End, yes, Thanos gained ultimate power. But he didn't give it up because of some flaw, he gave it up because he destroyed the entire universe and was all alone in empty blackness. He saved it because he had no choice.

If you want something different out of the character, progression or whatever, you might have enjoyed where Starlin was going with the character in the Thanos series, The premise of the first 6 issue arc involved Thanos trying to make amends for his misdeeds. Because he's Thanos, his misdeeds were things like destroying worlds, so it's not like he's doing community service or anything. In the arc, he wanted to make amends to the Rigellians for destroying one of their worlds or somesuch, so he had to do so by saving one - from Galactus. Personally I kind of enjoyed it, or at least, I thought it had a good start. (Didn't care for the finish.) But, it was different. No "fatal flaw," no seeking ultimate power, just Thanos seeing whether he could be "good." I don't know, I thought it was interesting. You missed 'Cosmic Powers', where Thanos was merely bored and was looking for a challenge...and found it, and more, in Tyrant.

And if Starlin wants to retcon stupid stories like Thanos appearing in Ka-Zar simply because Thanos was so popular then everyone wanted to use him in their books, in line with the Marvel way of the '90s, I personally don't have a problem with that. I can understand, and agree with, the idea that Thanos (or any character for that matter) shouldn't be winning all the time...no character should get too big...and if they wanted to bring him down a little bit, that's perfectly fine. But is Ka-Zar really the guy you want doing it? There's an entire roster in the MU full of characters (guys and gals) qualified to do the job, and they picked Ka-Zar? You have Iron Man, Hulk, She-Hulk, even Deadpool (who he was involved with later on)...hell they could have even made a meaningful X-story with Thanos, yet they picked Ka-Zar...go figure. :rolleyes:

That's not trying to help the character of Thanos become more well-rounded, or better flawed or whatever...it's an attempt at totally destroying his credibility...and I can understand why Starlin would be offended, and retcon it.