Why Crisis why not start the whole DC universe over again?

[davids]

Wht didn't they just anounce that since it has been over 20 years since the last reboot. On June first the whole DC universe re boots again and will do so every 25 years.

There is no history, no one is married and what has happened in the past happened on two diffrent earths in two diffrent universes and has no effect on our prest DC universe which starts on June first with action and superman number one!

Or does that make to much sence?:evilsmile

[Damo]

Because that's a terrible idea and someone would have died at the hands of angry fans for implimenting it.

I don't believe you completely understand what "making sense" means. Your usage suggests you believe that something making sense is the same as meaning it sounds like a good idea to you, but that's incorrect.

[Jolly Mon]

It makes great sense if you want to alienate your long-time readers. And since there are so few new readers coming in, that might not be the best idea.

[Arrjay]

Because that's a terrible idea and someone would have died at the hands of angry fans for implimenting it.

It's better than what they actually did.

[phantom1592]

I kind of wish they did. While I hate that all the past continuity would be lost (again), This question of "What" is still real is much worse.



Of course I really like Tim Drake's Robin. Would a new world have started with Dick Grayson as Robin, or a More current Nightwing?

[kalorama]

They didn't do it for the same reason they didn't do it with Crisis on Infinite Earths: DC management didn't like the idea. The thought (with obvious reason) that fans were so wedded to the idea of "continuity" that wiping the slate clean and starting from scratch would cost them readers. (Because, if they started continuity over from zero, how could fans on the Internet bitch about when they got some minor detail from a story published before they were born wrong?)

[phantom1592]

Instead we get All Star books.



Same principle (although people already want to toss out Batman's first arc)

[shadowwolf47]

Crisis was bad enough as it was. Don't try to make it worse.

[The Shadow]

It makes great sense if you want to alienate your long-time readers. And since there are so few new readers coming in, that might not be the best idea.
Quoted for accuracy.

[Ontir]

The whole line was meant to start over after the original "Crisis," but various people changed their minds, mid-stream.

They should've gone ahead and done it this time around. A completely fresh start would've helped a number of porperties, and they could've used the opprotunity to allign concepts so that film and TV shows could make better fits, creating a greater ability to cross-promote, and make the other media feed back into the comics a bit better.

[phantom1592]

Of course we would then have had everything go out on a low note. Bat-Jerk, Identity Crisis murders, Mind wipes. The lowest of the low for the heroes would have been a lousy way to end that continuity.

[Void]

I think it's a great idea. DC squeezed every possible story from their properties years ago. They're making some great books right now, but many of the icons are just stagnating.

Infinite crisis was supposed to update the icons for today's world. Unfortunately most of the changes were fairly minor. They just keep regurgitating the same ideas over and over again.

DC needs to create a line of books that update major themes for today's world. I want to see superman as a newbie, learning the ropes and even making mistakes. That goes for all the icons as well. The few mini's dc releases yearly detailing the early years always leave me wanting more.

Hell, dc hasn't even applied beleivable tech advances for batman. Shouldn't wayne be utilizing nanotechnology? Or super drugs that would increase his native abilities?

For example, ellis's extremis arc on iron man gave a more accurate depiction of technology actually on the horizon. Batman on the other hand uses tech taht was considered futuristic 15 years ago.

I love the rich tapestry of history in teh dc universe, but being fairly young I wasn't there to read the major milestones. DC adn marvel have been copying each other for years, so I'm at a loss as to why there is no "ultimate" dc line.

And no all star doesn't count. Those books are just more material for the nostalgic fans of the silverage or all out satirical interpretations.

An ultimate dc line would be hella successful and not too difficult for dc to publish. So why can't they offer material for the older fan as well the newbs?:confused:

[Mister Mets]

Wht didn't they just anounce that since it has been over 20 years since the last reboot. On June first the whole DC universe re boots again and will do so every 25 years.

There is no history, no one is married and what has happened in the past happened on two diffrent earths in two diffrent universes and has no effect on our prest DC universe which starts on June first with action and superman number one!

Or does that make to much sence?:evilsmile

Because it leads to complications.
For example, how do you feature an inexperienced Batman, and Nightwing in the same universe.

[Lorendiac]

Wht didn't they just anounce that since it has been over 20 years since the last reboot. On June first the whole DC universe re boots again and will do so every 25 years.

There is no history, no one is married and what has happened in the past happened on two diffrent earths in two diffrent universes and has no effect on our prest DC universe which starts on June first with action and superman number one!

Or does that make to much sence?:evilsmile

I'd like to hear you develop that idea a bit further. Suppose it's a couple of years ago, and you're talking to Dan DiDio and Geoff Johns and some other people, trying to persuade them to do a Total Reboot of the DCU at the end of Infinite Crisis. What exactly would you say they stood to gain by this? Higher sales figures? Happier fans? What would make it worth the risk? (The risk of making some fans angry when they were told that their favorite run on the the JLA -- by Grant Morrison, for instance -- was now erased and forgotten and would never be mentioned again?)

[saintsaucey]

I want to see superman as a newbie, learning the ropes and even making mistakes.

watch smallville :D

[saintsaucey]

In all honesty I get it, i really do. But it won't happen. That had a great oppertunity with The All Star Lines and they blew it big time. If they were to do It, I would want them to make Smallville Cannon. Hell they could even place metropolis in Kansas if they wanted. They've introduced a hell of a lot of people already, they might as well make smallville Ultimate Superboy but if they do then there is onething I want them to change.

Have Clark Fall In Love With Chloe Damnit.

[Lorendiac]

watch smallville :D

He didn't say he wanted to see Clark Kent learning the ropes and making mistakes. He said he wanted to see Superman learning the ropes and making mistakes. That is not the same thing as what he'd get from Smallville!

[Lorendiac]

The whole line was meant to start over after the original "Crisis," but various people changed their minds, mid-stream.

I'm curious: What's your source for that information? Over the years, I've heard various rumors, sometimes contradictory, about exactly how COIE was originally supposed to change things, and what various people were anticipating they would be able to do in the Post-COIE DCU.

One rumor has it that Roy Thomas thought he had received a solid promise that his beloved Earth-2 with its separate continuity would largely be left alone, still existing as an entirely separate world no matter how many others got wiped out, so that he could keep writing stories set on Earth-2 after COIE had concluded and the dust had cleared.

On the other hand, a long time ago I wrote a post with several quotes from Marv Wolfman on the subject of COIE -- why he wanted to do it and what sort of long-term effect on the industry he thinks it had and so forth -- in which he claimed to have felt at the time that it would be best to make a clean sweep and toss out about just about all of the dusty old continuity that had been piling up for several decades, so writers would be "unchained" by the nitpicking details of what was done in the 1960s or the 1970s by other people! But I don't recall, offhand, ever seeing Wolfman say that this was exactly what DC had previously assured him COIE would accomplish, as you suggest was the original strategic objective. (It may have happened that way! I just haven't seen him offer exactly that statement! :))

[Ontir]

There was an article, years ago and I think in the old Amazing Heroes, in which Wolfman discusses that plan, and that it had been abandoned. If I still have the issue, it's on the other side of the continent, so I'm afraid I can't be more accurate than that. The rest of what you wrote about Wolfman seems pretty close to what I've written, and is very familiar. I think the company would've been much better off, if they could've had a complete clean slate, and a new "day one." Ah well... next time.

I've not previously heard of the Roy Thomas story, but given his dislike for being tied to continuity (which is why he was first on the Legion, and then went to Earth 2), it makes sense. Given how good Infinity Inc. was, DC would have been wise to go with this, even if it meant precluding further dimensional cross-overs.

[Lorendiac]

I've not previously heard of the Roy Thomas story, but given his dislike for being tied to continuity (which is why he was first on the Legion, and then went to Earth 2), it makes sense. Given how good Infinity Inc. was, DC would have been wise to go with this, even if it meant precluding further dimensional cross-overs.

Yes, I own full runs of Infinity Inc. and All-Star Squadron, and with both of them, when I read them straight through, I can feel him struggling very hard to do "damage control" as it became clear just how badly COIE had gutted the original continuity. In the case of Infinity Inc. in particular -- which continued onward for another couple of years after COIE had officially ended -- it felt like the heart and soul of the book had just been ripped out and torn to shreds despite Roy's best efforts to patch things up somehow.

[Buried Alien]

One rumor has it that Roy Thomas thought he had received a solid promise that his beloved Earth-2 with its separate continuity would largely be left alone, still existing as an entirely separate world no matter how many others got wiped out, so that he could keep writing stories set on Earth-2 after COIE had concluded and the dust had cleared.

It's no rumor. The letters that Thomas wrote to DC's editors pleading with them to spare Earth-Two (and Thomas' discussion of what subsequently happened) is documented in the COMPENDIUM from last year's ABSOLUTE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Lorendiac]

It's no rumor. The letters that Thomas wrote to DC's editors pleading with them to spare Earth-Two (and Thomas' discussion what subsequently happened) is documented in the COMPENDIUM from last year's ABSOLUTE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well, that might explain where the rumor came from that I heard. Whoever I heard it from didn't specifically say, "I read all about it in my copy of Absolute Crisis!" Perhaps he had heard it from a friend, who heard it from a friend, who actually had splurged and bought the silly thing? :)

[Lorendiac]

While participating in this thread tonight, I got a certain feeling of deja vu. Hadn't I been in a very similar thread, here on the CBR forums, earlier this year? One that was also asking about the feasibility of doing Total Reboots of the DCU at regular intervals, instead of having an Event every decade or so that "shakes up" the continuity without sweeping it all away at once and letting everybody start over from scratch with his favorite individual heroes or teams? (Rhetorical question; the answer is Yes!)

I ran a couple of searches for threads with my name in them, and certain key words that I thought I would have used at the time, and finally found the right one.

Should the DCU reboot every twenty years or so? (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=127001)
(Begun by Kara Zor El about two and a half months ago.)

Accordingly, here's an "instant replay" of the single post I made in that thread. I think it applies to this one too, and even includes yet another rumor I heard somewhere about some of DC's editorial thinking as they were trying to sort out just how much would change in the Post-COIE continuity :)

***** OLD POST *****

I no longer remember where I first read what I'm about to paraphrase. Sometime in the last couple of years, somewhere on the various comic book forums where I hang out. Whoever was holding forth said (roughly) the following:

"Back in the mid-80s, when DC was deciding to give the green light for Reboots of Superman and Wonder Woman that would basically throw away all previous stories about the characters, they could have erased the history of Donna Troy, the first Wonder Girl, as part of the Wonder Woman Reboot in a package deal. Unfortunately, that would pretty much force them to erase all the previous history of the Teen Titans. One major problem with this was that the Wolfman/Perez run on 'The New Teen Titans' in the early 80s had proved to be a surprise hit; one of the very few DC titles that, for years, consistently was a serious competitor with Chris Claremont's 'Uncanny X-Men' in the 'Top Ten Bestselling Comics' lists each month. Most of DC's Pre-Crisis titles had never come within a mile of challenging the supremacy of Claremont's X-Men, and they didn't want to pull the plug on one of the very few Pre-Crisis success stories they actually had! Accordingly, Donna Troy stayed in continuity as the girl who had somehow 'independently' become Wonder Girl several years before Diana of Themyscira became Wonder Woman."

I don't know if that is a perfectly accurate statement of how the decision was made at DC's headquarters in the mid-80s that yes, they were going to throw away all previous Wonder Woman continuity and start over, but yes, they were also going to leave all previous Titans-related Wonder Girl appearances still in continuity (except for any times when Wonder Woman got a cameo in a Titans issue and was mentioned as being Donna's "big sister").

But it probably resembles the truth, and it illustrates the problems with trying to do a Total Reboot of the Entire DCU. DC in the 1980s was willing to take the risk of Rebooting Superman, because Superman titles weren't selling very well. Ditto with Wonder Woman. But the Titans were selling very well indeed, so DC presumably didn't want to alienate legions of diehard Titans fans by telling them, "All the Titans stories you ever read up until now just got erased. We're starting all over from scratch!"

By the same token, DC probably would not have felt it was cost-effective to "erase" and Reboot any titles it had coming out in 2005 that were currently selling better than most of the other stuff being published by DC, Marvel, or Image. But they might be willing to Reboot some relatively obscure stuff. For instance, the Warlord and the Creeper are both being rebooted, all previous stories wiped out as I understand it, because DC could safely assume that most of its current fans don't really care if the old stories about those guys are still in continuity or not.

In addition, there's a situation today that wasn't a factor twenty years ago: Trade Paperback collections (TPBs) in every local Borders, Barnes & Noble, etc. TPB collections were almost unheard of twenty years ago. Now I hear that a sizable chunk of a comic book publisher's income is made from reselling its material in that format. Does DC really want to have to start telling people who buy the occasional TPB of a Superman or JLA story arc that most of the stuff still available on the shelves at Borders is now "officially erased from the current history of those characters"?

I think that would just create a great deal of unnecessary confusion and be the exact opposite of making DC's comics more "user-friendly" for people who are casually interested in buying the occasional TPB to see what's happening to the JLA or the JSA or the latest version of the Titans.

[phantom1592]

That is one of the differences between Marvel and DC. DC has history. For the longest time they DIDN"T ressurect their heroes. They replaced them. Tim Drake, Wally West, Kyle Rayner, Connor Hawke, now Bart Allen. These are sidekicks who grew into heroes in their own right. If you reboot Flash, you have to start with Barry. You can't even really tell Wally or Bart's origin without Barry. Yet it seems like Wally is people's favorite Flash.

Rebooting causes a lot of problems. MARVEL could do it. They don't have as many stories that have built on previous characters like Nightwing or the Titans.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

I think we can work out from this that the original Crisis on Infinite Earths, other than a cool Batman/Joker moment, was a complete mess.

Infinite Crisis, other than a "Kewl" Joke killing spree, was a complete mess.

[Meta 05]

It really wouldn't work i think dc more then marvel has trouble grabing young readers these days.[I think its partially thier own fault.Marvel began its movie launch with many of its characters an was smart enough to launch the ultimate line which closly followed it.The ultimate line acted as a gate way an many people starting with it moved over to main stream marvel but it took that big media leap to get its chars out thier an prove comics were still cool for kids. I don't see why DC couldn't do that with its All star line up of books

JUSTICE, SUPERMAN, BATMAN , WONDERWOMEN, GREENLANTERN, FLASH

All of them will be getting movies in a few years thus its a great way to swing new readers on board.

[kalorama]

I'm curious: What's your source for that information?

At the time COIE was actually being released, there were several pieces written about it in the comics press in which Wolfman, Wein, and Frank Miller talked about approaching Jeannette Kahn with the idea of rebooting the entire DCU from square one (based on talks they'd been having about future story ideas), and restarting every series from scrathc with a new #1 issue. But she and Dick Giordano (who was then Editor in Chief) nixed the idea. Miller dropped out of the deal (his intended contibution later resurfacing as Batman year One) and Wein and Wolfman retooled their concepts into Crisis on Infinite Earths. AS I recall, however, the plan wasn't changed midstream. It had been decided well before the book began production that there would not be a hard reboot.

[phantom1592]

one thing I noticed when I re-read the original Crisis is really how Poorly it ended.

IF its goal was to combine the universes and make it reboot certain characters... It failed.

They killed off Barry Allen, and if the Crisis isn't remembered then "how" he died has always been fuzzy. At the end of Crisis, everyone who was in the final fight "remember" everything, but once the books started up again, it had never happened.

Very Choppy work. Like Infinite Crisis and Nightwings "death", I don't find it hard to beleive that they changed their mind abour their goals during the last few issues.

[caats19]

well there was a scene cut out of infinite crisis that shows how nightwing was revived, that shoulda been left in. and i think rebooting DC would be the DUMBEST THING EVER. i love the fact that DC has history and has new people get promoted like the flash. i do not wanna see a DC ultimate line, that'd be really dumb, why would they do that?? superman and batman wouldn't be symbols or the best anymore. i think it'd absolutely just be the worst thing ever. did anybody like infinite crisis?? i really liked it. i guess i'm new to these boards, but all i see from the "elites" is how they hate change. or if they don't like it, then they'll just say "it was horrible writing", to make em sound right or something. i didn't read any of the 6 mini series up to infinite crisis, i just read the countdown. and i totally kept up with it, and if you post in here, i can't see how you wouldn't have been able to either.

[Damo]

It's easy to say "reboot". Now sit down and do it.

How do you handle the JSA? Is it set in the past or the present? If Batman is just starting off then we have to wait a while to get to Dick Grayson as Robin. Sorry Tim fans, maybe he'll be Robin... some day...

Outsiders fans, don't hold your breath waiting for anything like the current team.

Who gets to be Green Lantern?

Who gets to be Flash? Atom?

Birds of Prey? Probably cancelled, certainly not easy to do from scratch.

Robin won't be a book for a while.

Likely ditto for Catwoman.

Manhunter? Forget the rich history to be mined.

Sure it might sound initially good for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow and the JLA... but when it comes time to actually do the durn thing it really looks to me like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[kalorama]

It's easy to say "reboot". Now sit down and do it.

How do you handle the JSA? Is it set in the past or the present? If Batman is just starting off then we have to wait a while to get to Dick Grayson as Robin. Sorry Tim fans, maybe he'll be Robin... some day...

Outsiders fans, don't hold your breath waiting for anything like the current team.

Who gets to be Green Lantern?

Who gets to be Flash? Atom?

Birds of Prey? Probably cancelled, certainly not easy to do from scratch.

Robin won't be a book for a while.

Likely ditto for Catwoman.

Manhunter? Forget the rich history to be mined.

Sure it might sound initially good for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow and the JLA... but when it comes time to actually do the durn thing it really looks to me like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


Not at all. You can start all of the books out in the present day, without the weight of 70 years of convoluted, contradictory "continuity" and fill in the backstory on an ongoing basis as you go. Or you can have a line of books set in the present day, a line that follows the exploits of the WWII heroes, and a nother that covers the beginning of the major characters careers in the "Silver age" and coordinate the development of all three so that the continuity dovetails.

There are certainly ways to do it.

[Smarty Jones]

Cleaning up continuity would not be a problem at all. Most of it is simply trying to track everything back to a certain period.

For instance, The first-generation Justice Society of America would be the heroes from Wold War II. This time, there is no Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman who served with them.

The Silver Age would begin with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and second-generation versions of The Flash, The Atom, Green Lantern and Hawkman.

The major, big-picture aspects of characters would be kept without having to make it cumbersome. You don't have to play Connect the Dots with when did Dick Grayson became Robin, when did Barry Allen die, etc. I think people get too consumed with trying to match up everything with a particular issue.

[shyguy]

Continuity wouldn't even be such a big deal now if someone would just tell writers to leave it alone and move on.

Unfortunately, it seems like every big-name writer DC has write now just can't stop fussing around with continuity issues that would be better off left alone.

If they'd stop churning out crappy stories about continuity like Infinite Crisis, then nobody would have any reason to want to reboot the DCU.

One of the reasons that I've heard that DC didn't do a clean reboot during COIE is that New Teen Titans was their best selling book at the time, and there's really no way to start out a from-scratch DCU with an established team of Titans already in place.

I think the only way a complete reboot would work is if they just wiped the slate with everything and completely started over again. When a lot of people talk about "rebooting," they assume it's a lost cause because they see the end result looking basically like the DCU we have now. That's why COIE wound up being a big headache - all kinds of writers since COIE have been trying to make the post-Crisis DCU more like the pre-Crisis DCU whether or not it makes any sense.

What it would take for a reboot to hold would be a total reboot and an EIC who would put the kibosh on 6-issue storylines designed just to make Superman more like he was in the Silver Age.

[Lorendiac]

What it would take for a reboot to hold would be a total reboot and an EIC who would put the kibosh on 6-issue storylines designed just to make Superman more like he was in the Silver Age.

As Damo pointed out earlier in this thread, that raises a whole bunch of new problems. Let me expand upon one of the problem areas he offered as an example.

Suppose the JSA, along with everybody else in the DCU, gets a "total reboot" next year. What does that mean, exactly?

1. That there never was a JSA in the 1940s; it is only starting "right now in the modern world" for the very first time?

2. Or that there was a JSA in the 1940s, but all of their "old stories" from that era (those published in the 1940s, or published decades later in "All-Star Squadron" in the 1980s, or whatever) never happened? The only adventures they had were ones that will be offered to us right now, starting from scratch, in a new title featuring their adventures in the World War II era?

3. Or maybe their "old stories" from the 1940s still happened, since nobody is likely to scream in agony on that subject since it's such "ancient history" any way you look at it, but none of their comparatively recent appearances (as individuals or as a reunited group) from "modern continuity" of the last few decades, interacting with late-20th Century and early-21st Century heroes and villains, ever happened? Ever since the 1940s, there's been (we might be told) a long period of 50 years or more in which there was virtually no superheroing going on at all until just now, when the Rebooted Superman and the Rebooted Batman and so forth suddenly pop up in the news for the first time?

4. Or there's no JSA at all; never has been, never will be? Every character concept that ended up being part of the Pre-COIE Earth-2 gets thrown out the window and only the "Earth-1, Silver Age" concepts get rebooted? Making a Rebooted Barry Allen the Very First Flash because nobody in the Rebooted DCU ever heard of any other Flash before he came along "just now"?

5. Or something else entirely? I'm curious -- how would you handle it?

[metr0man]

problem is, what you propose is simple and clean. the comic industry is all about making everything as complicated as possible.

By the way a complete reboot would not have alienated the audiences. All they need to do is announce a hot writer and Jim Lee on one book, and a hot writer and hot artist on another book and 99% of the angry fans are back. Hell more fans who read other books would come onboard. Big stunts like that always bring in fans.

[wellsoul2]

As Damo pointed out earlier in this thread, that raises a whole bunch of new problems. Let me expand upon one of the problem areas he offered as an example.

Suppose the JSA, along with everybody else in the DCU, gets a "total reboot" next year. What does that mean, exactly?

1. That there never was a JSA in the 1940s; it is only starting "right now in the modern world" for the very first time?

2. Or that there was a JSA in the 1940s, but all of their "old stories" from that era (those published in the 1940s, or published decades later in "All-Star Squadron" in the 1980s, or whatever) never happened? The only adventures they had were ones that will be offered to us right now, starting from scratch, in a new title featuring their adventures in the World War II era?

3. Or maybe their "old stories" from the 1940s still happened, since nobody is likely to scream in agony on that subject since it's such "ancient history" any way you look at it, but none of their comparatively recent appearances (as individuals or as a reunited group) from "modern continuity" of the last few decades, interacting with late-20th Century and early-21st Century heroes and villains, ever happened? Ever since the 1940s, there's been (we might be told) a long period of 50 years or more in which there was virtually no superheroing going on at all until just now, when the Rebooted Superman and the Rebooted Batman and so forth suddenly pop up in the news for the first time?

4. Or there's no JSA at all; never has been, never will be? Every character concept that ended up being part of the Pre-COIE Earth-2 gets thrown out the window and only the "Earth-1, Silver Age" concepts get rebooted? Making a Rebooted Barry Allen the Very First Flash because nobody in the Rebooted DCU ever heard of any other Flash before he came along "just now"?

5. Or something else entirely? I'm curious -- how would you handle it?

Yes..you very clearly point out the problems DC tells us to ignore every day.

1. Very little editorial control at DC..writers reboot/change without caring about the greater DC universe.

2. So you reboot..but with little editorial continuity control you have the same
mess soon anyhow.

3. Too many characters/franchises on one world.

There is a logical way to handle it.

1. Have a multiverse. This explains the multiple versions of each character.
When you want a specific character bring it to Earth 1.

2. Have editorial control so you don't wreck continuity for the sake of novelty.

Seriously..they had their chance with Infinite Crisis and they just don't
care enough to bother. They'd rather you throw out your comics every
five years because they now mean nothing.

JLA #0 sums it up. All this big deal for two years because Wonder Woman
kills Max Lord. woops..it's over..no prob at all now..just more "history".

[Kara Zor El]

While participating in this thread tonight, I got a certain feeling of deja vu. Hadn't I been in a very similar thread, here on the CBR forums, earlier this year? One that was also asking about the feasibility of doing Total Reboots of the DCU at regular intervals, instead of having an Event every decade or so that "shakes up" the continuity without sweeping it all away at once and letting everybody start over from scratch with his favorite individual heroes or teams? (Rhetorical question; the answer is Yes!)

I ran a couple of searches for threads with my name in them, and certain key words that I thought I would have used at the time, and finally found the right one.

Should the DCU reboot every twenty years or so? (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=127001)
(Begun by Kara Zor El about two and a half months ago.)

Looks like I got Retconned!:eek:

I didn't know the answer that's why I made the post a question. To see what others thought. I also mentioned how Judge Dredd isn't stuck in a time vortex. Every year the callender moves up a year to. Dredd ages and at one point had to retire. They found a way of making him young again. But the world around him keeps moving on.
I think we should have an Ultimates type line. Which All Star obviously isn't. In which we can start again.

[deganawida]

If I may, perhaps I can suggest a potential solution to the rebooting debate? Rather than reboot, wipe the slate clean, or so on, why not pull a 1956? That is, why not create a separate continuity with new takes on many DC properties? Green Lantern Hal Jordan was an entirely different beast in an entirely different world than Allan Scott, the Green Lantern. Would it not be nice to read of another, completely different Green Lantern on a world where no Corps existed? Rather than try to make certain characters profitable by killing them and replacing them, you use the base concepts to create new characters whose adventures are published beside those of the current characters, but whom share no relation.

I realize that this would most likely entail a return to pre-CoIE sensibilities, but I feel that is preferrable to having another big Crisis every 5 years or so, and lets creators still play with their favorites.

[phantom1592]

If I may, perhaps I can suggest a potential solution to the rebooting debate? Rather than reboot, wipe the slate clean, or so on, why not pull a 1956? That is, why not create a separate continuity with new takes on many DC properties? Green Lantern Hal Jordan was an entirely different beast in an entirely different world than Allan Scott, the Green Lantern. Would it not be nice to read of another, completely different Green Lantern on a world where no Corps existed? Rather than try to make certain characters profitable by killing them and replacing them, you use the base concepts to create new characters whose adventures are published beside those of the current characters, but whom share no relation.

I realize that this would most likely entail a return to pre-CoIE sensibilities, but I feel that is preferrable to having another big Crisis every 5 years or so, and lets creators still play with their favorites.


They tried that with the Tangent Universe.


I believe it flopped. When Hal Jordan and Barry Allen were created the originals had been retired for many years. There was nothing to compare them too. I don't think any new universe would work when it's still in the shadow of the legends.

If they shut down the DCU for 10 years and THEN tried something new, I have no doubt it would work. Look at how many people on these forums don't know/like Hal Jordan. He stepped out of the spotlight for 10 years, and new readers see him as an outsider. (like most of us Jordan fans see Allan Scott)

[XPac]

This is something that simply cannot be fixed. They didn't do the Crisis right the first time, and no amount of retconning can turn back the clock and make it go away.

Trying to retcon the retcons just makes it worse in the long run. But it makes a nice "event" every few years, so I don't imagine this will change.

That said, the best thing DC can do is just LEAVE IT ALONE and go from there.

[Ontir]

That's my point, exactly. These piece-meal retro-fits don't work. There's always something that some character should/shoudln't know, but does/doesn't, and inconsistencies between books/writers/editors who bring in certain elements, unaware of their ripple affect.

If it were up to me, it'd be something along these lines:

the JSA would be re-done as a period book (I know this is unpopular with some, but there's a reason.), which would re-define the past of the DCU.

Wonder Woman would be restored to her first origin, and woudl be a part of the JSA.

Wonder Girl would have been Donna Troy, Lyta Trevor would still be Fury.

Batman would take on a more legendary status, with there being other Batmen through history, but not in a direct line. Bruce would learn of them, after becoming the Dark Knight.

Superman would be a modern character, and (rights permited) Superboy. He'd also have been a part, to some extent of the JSA, which would fuel his interest, along with Wonder Woman (still Diana), of starting the JLA.

From this basic structure, all the other characters would be put into a generational frame-work, laying out the DCU into a new more workable format. All the characters would (unless they need to be killed off for reasons of plot) be available in the beginning, and from that framework, re-works of fallowed characters are also possible.

[Kara Zor El]

Maybe they should reboot Coronation Street and Eastenders as well. And Neighbours and Home and Away.

[shyguy]

As Damo pointed out earlier in this thread, that raises a whole bunch of new problems.

Well, I don't think of the things you listed as problems so much as simple decision that would have to be made regarding the reboot. All it would take is for a decision to be made by whoever's in charge and for said person to make sure that writers didn't deviate from that.

The decision might be arbitrary, but you're never going to please anyone anyway.

If it were me, I'd probably just say start totally from scratch with Superman - no Justice Society, no golden age heroes, no nothing before Superman.

An equally simple solution would be to say that there used to be a bunch of heroes during WW2 but the've all been dead for years (which is more realistic than all the JSAers we have running around now anyway). Then start with Superman in the modern age.

People would get upset no matter what was done, but people are upset now, too, so I'm not sure that it's that big of a concern.

[phantom1592]

One of the things they should have done was give us a new timeline, like they did after Zero Hour. This whole find out what still counts as we go, isn't going to end welll.

[kel25]

I don't think they should ever reset the DCU. Why slap the faces of long time fans and say everything that happened up until this point doesn't matter?

On the other hand if DC came out with their own version of Marvels Ultimate (All Star is not it) line I would buy them in a second. :)

[Ian J.N.]

I don't see a reboot as ever being necessary. Writers can and do interpret characters in new ways, deciding which plot beats of the character's history are necessary for their story. Drastic reinterpretations--Blue Beetle as an hispanic teenager, for example--are accomplished by creating new characters. Drastically drastic reinterpretations are accomplished through alternative lines, like All-Star or Elseworlds.

Ironically, a convoluted backstory makes it easier to spin new directions, because there's a wealth of material to draw from. If a writer wanted to reinterpret Green Lantern as a metaphysical avenger, for example, he/she could reference Hal's stint as the Spectre to give legitimacy to the idea. A grim anti-hero? Highlight "Hard Travelling Heroes" and the Coast City tragedy. Two-fisted adventurer? Silently downplay the conflicting developments, and have at 'er.

A reboot strips away those stories that a writer might otherwise use to bolster his own. It takes away a storytelling tool. Yeah, you'd get a more streamlined and consistent continuity (for a while), but that's a secondary goal. What's important--always--is the story at hand. To that end, I wish fans could shift their thinking on the matter. Go into each new story assuming that nothing is in continuity, unless the writer implies otherwise.

[Zero Hunter]

All a total reboot does is end up giving us waterdown versions of characters. You would end up with something like the Batman cartoon with all his old villians being reintorduced with that "cool" modern makover. Plus how boring would it be to just see a different villian rebooted every few issues? Oh look here is the Joker story, then comes the Penguin story, oh look here is Catwomen, ect, ect, ect. Boring as hell. Plus every story would have to be an intro story, and those get tired very quick, especialy if you already know the characters. On the other hand they could go for the radical change in the character and that just pisses people off 90% of the time.

Total Reboot = Bad

[The Scribe]

Zero Hunter is correct.

We would have to reread the introductions of every hero, villain, etc., which would be extremely boring and redundant.

This would be an extremely bad idea.

[curefreak]

I don't think they should ever reset the DCU. Why slap the faces of long time fans and say everything that happened up until this point doesn't matter?

On the other hand if DC came out with their own version of Marvels Ultimate (All Star is not it) line I would buy them in a second. :)
isnt a retcon a virtual slap in the face of long time fans ?

[Kara Zor El]

All a total reboot does is end up giving us waterdown versions of characters. You would end up with something like the Batman cartoon with all his old villians being reintorduced with that "cool" modern makover. Plus how boring would it be to just see a different villian rebooted every few issues? Oh look here is the Joker story, then comes the Penguin story, oh look here is Catwomen, ect, ect, ect. Boring as hell. Plus every story would have to be an intro story, and those get tired very quick, especialy if you already know the characters. On the other hand they could go for the radical change in the character and that just pisses people off 90% of the time.

Total Reboot = Bad

I wasn't sure what I wanted when I posted the origionl post on this questoin about rebooting. I wanted to get a debate going and see what came up. But this sort of argument won me over to thinking it would be a very bad idea that would only work for new readers.

[Suzanne]

I thought Crisis was necessary. Making drastic changes without an explaination would've been odd. Take Batman's "dickery" for instance. Being a paranoid ass one month and completely different the next would've been baffling. (and I don't think a PMSing excuse would've worked ;) ) Same goes for everying else IC brought about.

[kalorama]

Zero Hunter is correct.

We would have to reread the introductions of every hero, villain, etc., which

First, no one has to read anything they don't want to. Second, it wouldn't be "redundant" because (A) none of the stuff that came before would mean anything and (B) the new origins would likely be altered in many ways from the original, adding some new twists and dimensions to the characters.

[caats19]

worst idea ever

[kalorama]

Ironically, a convoluted backstory makes it easier to spin new directions, because there's a wealth of material to draw from.

Conversely, a convoluted backstory limits what a writer can do by constraining him/her to work within the boundaries of stories written as many as 60 years ago, many of them built arounnd outdated, anachronistic ideas, concerns, and concepts that have little application to today's world.

[Zero Hunter]

First, no one has to read anything they don't want to. Second, it wouldn't be "redundant" because (A) none of the stuff that came before would mean anything and (B) the new origins would likely be altered in many ways from the original, adding some new twists and dimensions to the characters.

And there you get the new "cool" modern twists in the origins that I was talking about. Yeah some would proably be good, but others would be crap. Most the people would not be happy if all of a sudden everything was all new and that was the only version available to them. There is just to much history with these characters to throw it all away. The reason it has worked with the Ultimate line of books is because the old versions are still there. If it was just the Ultimate version of everything availible you would have seen Marvel hemorage readers like a man getting his head cut off, and the same would happen to DC.

Most of the time all it takes is a good writer to tweak or update an existing property. Look at what Johns did for the worse case senerio Hawkman. If that character could be saved any of them can be.

A total reboot is the lazy way out.