View Full Version : Which Batgirl on What Team? (spoilers ahead; you've been warned)
DWEarhart
08-05-2006, 01:53 AM
"Asked about seeing the Cassandra Cain Batgirl again, Johns said that she is the Batgirl in the upcoming “Titans East” stryline in Teen Titans."
DC Nation panel (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=79466)
Kara Zor El
08-05-2006, 03:53 AM
Sounds good to me. I thought there were a lot of posative words there.
Gary Joyce
08-05-2006, 04:10 AM
Well to me Cassandra still is Batgirl (i try to pretend her character wasnt ruined in Robin).
But this is good news as was the news Wolfmans run on Nightwing was being extended.Means the book might get good again.
agentofthebat
08-05-2006, 06:07 AM
Looks like AZ isnt coming back the fans booo himed WTF thats craped out my day i loved AZ!!!! Those fans have no idea!!!!
Gary Joyce
08-05-2006, 06:44 AM
Looks like AZ isnt coming back the fans booo himed WTF thats craped out my day i loved AZ!!!! Those fans have no idea!!!!
To be fair Az probably only got booed becaused his series was so por towards the end.
Sean Walsh
08-05-2006, 08:42 AM
To be fair Az probably only got booed becaused his series was so por towards the end.
Define "toward the end."
In the minds of many, that book went on about 3, maybe 4, years too long...
cactusmaac
08-05-2006, 09:57 AM
Geoff Johns will be writing her?
Halleleujah, looks like I'll be buying Titans East.
Eliseu Gouveia
08-05-2006, 09:59 AM
If this is true (I am THAT skeptical about anything regarding Cassie these days), I will build a temple in Johns´honor. :)
Gary Joyce
08-05-2006, 10:03 AM
Define "toward the end."
In the minds of many, that book went on about 3, maybe 4, years too long...
I would say around the time Captain Death came to life from the big screen started the downward spiral of Azrael.I think it was around issue 73 (not sure off hand)
David Atkins
08-05-2006, 10:58 AM
Cassandra as Batgirl again, preferably with some plausible explanation as to her actions in Robin, would be a blessing. I may have to check into Titans East myself.
Also, for the record, Azrael was awesome. :cool:
Rez Steaua
08-05-2006, 11:54 AM
I for one am not looking forward to it. I agreed with Beechan that Cassandra's character in Robin arc was a natural advance for her and I thought she would be a great villian for Drake.
Now we get another street-leveler Martial artist hero back into the fray to dilute Batman, as if Robin, Batwoman, Nightwing, Red Hood, Huntress, Black Canary, Jade Canary etc weren't enough! Now the Kung-Fu munchkin is back too:mad:
comicfreak
08-05-2006, 12:16 PM
@Rez
I think that Cassy as a Character and as Batgirl is in herself unique enough to not dilute Batman.
As for Titans East. It sounds good.Too good to be true. So I'll just wait for the issues and then will eventually start to praise Geoff Johns.
Eliseu Gouveia
08-05-2006, 12:36 PM
Cassandra as Batgirl again, preferably with some plausible explanation as to her actions in Robin, would be a blessing.
I don´t need an explanation, I ´d rather pretend that whole mess never happened.
Sizzle
08-05-2006, 02:34 PM
Well, considering how they guys like to throw curve balls out there, she could certainly be the villian of this story as well.
Eliseu Gouveia
08-05-2006, 02:40 PM
That wouldn´t surprise me in the least.
colossus34
08-05-2006, 03:31 PM
Well, considering how they guys like to throw curve balls out there, she could certainly be the villian of this story as well.
Highly unlikely, from the recent Batgirl "return" in Birds of Prey where she rescues a couple from thugs it appears DC's going the long, boring, rehashed route of turning her into another "redemed hero". Frankly very unoriginal, especially considering Cass's mother Shiva is following the same path in the same book!
I don't understand why they just didn't stick the route they already planned for her and make her into an interesting, complex villian. Sure some Cass fans were complaining but other DC people weren't bothered by it.
Like Rez said all we need now is a flamming Batboy and Battransvesite to complete the Batfamily! Do we really need to dilute the Batmythos sooo much with so many clone Martial artist vigalantes?
VietN
08-05-2006, 04:37 PM
If Cass's turn came out of nowhere and her babbling about Batman didn't make much sense to me. I mean if she can read body language as well as I thought she could she'd be a little more insightful. Ohh and look out a villainess with hots for the hero. It's like Independence Day and Passions rolled up into one spicy soft taco.
Eliseu Gouveia
08-05-2006, 04:53 PM
"Interesting, complex villain?"
I pray that´s a joke, the only thing "interesting and complex" about Robin#151´s Cass-clone was how absolutelly ludicrous she turned out.
"- Boo-hoo, Daddy had another daughter, so I´m gonna go eeevil."
Interesting and complex indeed.
PersonaDark
08-05-2006, 04:54 PM
Highly unlikely, from the recent Batgirl "return" in Birds of Prey where she rescues a couple from thugs it appears DC's going the long, boring, rehashed route of turning her into another "redemed hero". Frankly very unoriginal, especially considering Cass's mother Shiva is following the same path in the same book!
I don't understand why they just didn't stick the route they already planned for her and make her into an interesting, complex villian. Sure some Cass fans were complaining but other DC people weren't bothered by it.
Like Rez said all we need now is a flamming Batboy and Battransvesite to complete the Batfamily! Do we really need to dilute the Batmythos sooo much with so many clone Martial artist vigalantes?
If she had been made into an interesting, complex villian instead of a female Superemo Prime in the first place, no one would be complaining. And I don't understand how Cass 'dilutes' the Batmythos at all.
Apathy Boy
08-05-2006, 05:07 PM
I hope people aren't getting their hopes up too much with this news. Aren't the Titans East supposed to be adversaries of the real Titans? Granted, they maybe won't be villains, but I don't think they'll be shining examples of heroism either.
AlistairCrane
08-05-2006, 07:42 PM
I hope people aren't getting their hopes up too much with this news. Aren't the Titans East supposed to be adversaries of the real Titans? Granted, they maybe won't be villains, but I don't think they'll be shining examples of heroism either.
ITA. Plus, Geoff Johns is the type of guy who would destroy Cassie Cain if he had the chance. If you like Cassie, you're not in the best of hands.
agentofthebat
08-06-2006, 01:46 PM
what issue is this coming out?
Windbreaker
08-06-2006, 07:29 PM
Highly unlikely, from the recent Batgirl "return" in Birds of Prey where she rescues a couple from thugs it appears DC's going the long, boring, rehashed route of turning her into another "redemed hero". Frankly very unoriginal, especially considering Cass's mother Shiva is following the same path in the same book!
Just to clarify -- Shiva wasn't on her way to redemption. She agreed to switch "origins" with Black Canary for a period of time. Not because she wanted to join the good guys, but because she thought BC would turn into a killer.
But regarding Cassie, I was so miffed at the final arc in BATGIRL. Lame, lame, lame.
Magneto_X
08-06-2006, 09:15 PM
This is great news if Cass will become Batgirl again. :D
Nate Palm
08-07-2006, 12:12 AM
ITA. Plus, Geoff Johns is the type of guy who would destroy Cassie Cain if he had the chance. If you like Cassie, you're not in the best of hands.
It's possible. Although, I have a bit more faith because apparently at Wizard World Chicago Geoff Johns actually promised MrrarA, the guy who made that Save Cass website, that "Batgirl will be cool". Here's to hoping!
Jeff F
08-07-2006, 05:05 AM
"Interesting, complex villain?"
I pray that´s a joke, the only thing "interesting and complex" about Robin#151´s Cass-clone was how absolutelly ludicrous she turned out.
"- Boo-hoo, Daddy had another daughter, so I´m gonna go eeevil."
Interesting and complex indeed.
Why can't you let people like what they like?
David Atkins
08-07-2006, 05:43 AM
Why can't you let people like what they like?
Because people that like what they like simply in order to be contrary are too common for us to sort out the ones that actually are of that opinion because it is actually their opinion. ;)
Besides, the whole 'agree to disagree' thing is all good and everything, but tends to kill conversation about as quickly as 'That's exactly what I think!'
Highly unlikely, from the recent Batgirl "return" in Birds of Prey where she rescues a couple from thugs it appears DC's going the long, boring, rehashed route of turning her into another "redemed hero". Frankly very unoriginal, especially considering Cass's mother Shiva is following the same path in the same book!
What makes you think that was Cassandra Cain in that Batgirl outfit?
Dan DiDio did a neat little bit of word association at the DC Nation Panel.
Dan: Who is Superman?
Crowd: Clark Kent.
Dan: Who is Batman?
Crowd: Bruce Wayne.
Dan: Who is Batgirl?
Crowd: Barbara Gordon.
You had some people yelling out "Cassandra Cain" and "Betty Kane," but most everybody said Babs.
Francis
08-07-2006, 02:51 PM
What makes you think that was Cassandra Cain in that Batgirl outfit?
Dan DiDio did a neat little bit of word association at the DC Nation Panel.
Dan: Who is Superman?
Crowd: Clark Kent.
Dan: Who is Batman?
Crowd: Bruce Wayne.
Dan: Who is Batgirl?
Crowd: Barbara Gordon.
You had some people yelling out "Cassandra Cain" and "Betty Kane," but most everybody said Babs.
I notice that Dan Dodo didn't dare ask "Who is Robin?" for fear of getting the answer "Dick Grayson". Hell, it's what I'd have replied. And in comics, Dick hasn't been Robin since before I could read.
Characters change. They move on. And as Oracle, Barbara Gordon is a far richer, deeper, and more mature character than she ever was as Batgirl. If they wish to destroy Barbara Gordon by returning her to being Batgirl, they can. But it will rank as a character assassination up there with that of Cassandra Cain. Or they could try having two Barbara Gordons wandering around (which is one possibility) - but that gets more confusing even than normal comics continuity.
In short, if you want to replace Cass with Babs in the batgirl outfit, replace Tim with Dick in the robin outfit. And replace Wally and Bart with Barry (or possibly Jay) in the Flash outfit. That way, at least you are being consistent. Otherwise, stop stupidly insulting the readers.
agentofthebat
08-07-2006, 04:09 PM
any idea when this issue coming out? When was Bane showing back up again?
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=79802
Aaaaaaand there go all my hopes. Other members of Titans East - Inertia, the evil Impulse (that was last seen questioning his motives for turning evil), Kid Devil's arch enemy, The Joker's Daughter, and Risk. Even if they're not straight out evils, this looks like a recipe for a whole team of Jason Todds. I'll wait and see, and I'll hope, but if this goes where it looks like it's going then shame on you Geoff. You have every right to write what you want, but you went up to a Cass fans wearing "Save Cass" t-shirts and promised they'd like what you were going to do with her, and anything that agrees with the Beechen story sounds like anything but keeping that promise.
Why can't you let people like what they like?
Because, no offense, but that's just plain silly.
"I like this fire!"
"Hey, cut that out! I like the thing you're burning, and the smoke is hurting my eyes and making me choke!"
"I like the smoke. Why do you have to be like that? Why can't you just let me enjoy the flames?"
What makes you think that was Cassandra Cain in that Batgirl outfit?
Dan DiDio did a neat little bit of word association at the DC Nation Panel.
Dan: Who is Superman?
Crowd: Clark Kent.
Dan: Who is Batman?
Crowd: Bruce Wayne.
Dan: Who is Batgirl?
Crowd: Barbara Gordon.
You had some people yelling out "Cassandra Cain" and "Betty Kane," but most everybody said Babs.
Which only really proves to me how obnoxious Didio can be sometimes. He should have yelled out "Green Lantern" and seen what the response would be.
Constantine Drakon
08-08-2006, 05:37 PM
So there is no Santa Geoff. Figures. *Adjusts glasses.* There can only come heartache from expecting Mr. Silver Age to restore a modern character to greatness.
Which only really proves to me how obnoxious Didio can be sometimes. He should have yelled out "Green Lantern" and seen what the response would be.
The point was the majority of fans still think of Barbara when they think of Batgirl.
Nate Palm
08-08-2006, 08:15 PM
The point was the majority of fans still think of Barbara when they think of Batgirl.
Indeed. Though I find that odd. I can only assume that it really has more to do with the cartoon than the comics though. I mean I'm thirty and I started reading comics like seventeen(dear God!) years ago. Barbara Gordon wasn't even Batgirl then. My brother reads comics and he's sixteen so Barbara Gordon hasn't been Batgirl for his entire life. Maybe if DC would push Cassandra Cain as Batgirl that could change but hell they didn't even cameo her in Hush and they were throwing everyone into Hush.
It should be noted however that when DiDio asked, Batgirl or Oracle for Barbara, the fans chose Oracle.
The point was the majority of fans still think of Barbara when they think of Batgirl.
And my point was that it's much like Green Lantern. Just because a majority yells "Hal" that doesn't mean the people yelling "Kyle" or "Guy" or "Alan" or even "John Stewart" are wrong. He was trying to make his point that it was a simple question and the majority are right by using examples where only one person has ever really used the name. He stacks the deck to make his point.
David Atkins
08-08-2006, 10:22 PM
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=79802
Aaaaaaand there go all my hopes.
Ditto. I'm going to go curl up and cry. :(
Nick Kal
08-08-2006, 10:57 PM
Titans East are probably going to be heroes who cross the line... as we can tell from reading the clues and member list. That should be interesting, especially since there is someone who is recruiting and manipulating them...
Meta 05
08-08-2006, 11:26 PM
This series/ or arc as it were isn't even out yet.Before anyone starts complaing how its going to suck lets wait till after the material is published.I think what DC has done post IC has been good for diversifying the DCU.I didn't read anything that put me in a a rampaging state an i have every intention of picking it up an being open minded.DC knows how to keep a customer base an it knows how to tease people just enough that you will pick it all up ranting an raving an enjoy it an they will still end up with your 3 bucks an issue
This series/ or arc as it were isn't even out yet.Before anyone starts complaing how its going to suck lets wait till after the material is published.
I don't think anyone has yet said that the book that isn't out yet sucks. But there have been a few people going "oh, I don't like the sound of that". Which is how it should be. If every time any company made an anouncement about future plans people just sat around silent, thinking to themselves "I won't say anything until I see what happens," life would be a lot more boring.
Saying something sucks before you have the important details is silly. Saying something looks like it'll be bad, on the other hand, is not.
Kid Kamikaze10
08-09-2006, 11:22 AM
So there is no Santa Geoff. Figures. *Adjusts glasses.* There can only come heartache from expecting Mr. Silver Age to restore a modern character to greatness.
Yeah..... Like Cyborg Superman........
Blight
08-09-2006, 11:48 AM
Yeah..... Like Cyborg Superman........
Greatest revamp and latest candiate from the Geoff Johns School of Villainy where former great villains who lost their prime get a nice lecture from Mr. Johns on how to be evil and cool again to these fans and make them remember your name. :p
Geoff shall be forever worshiped by me for bringing him back. Oh and let's not forget other candiates such as Rose Wilson, her own father, and the new Zoom who also came from the Geoff Johns School of Villainy :D
Yeah..... Like Cyborg Superman........
Fair enough. But I think it's safe to say that Johns has a Silver Age bias. While characters from all Ages died in Infinite Crisis, the canon fodder were more modern characters (poor Pantha never did find out her origin). Mongal was sloppily killed to get us back to a classic looking Mongul. With the restoration of the "dead" Lanterns, pretty much all the sins of Hal as Parallax have been washed away. It's not always how he goes, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make me worry about how he would handle Cass, especially since she's on a team that sounds like a bunch of bad eggs. I don't see him in any rush to restore her to being a character worthy of the name Batgirl, a title that (and I'm speculating here) he probably thinks should only be applied to Babs Gordon.
Blight
08-09-2006, 07:40 PM
Fair enough. But I think it's safe to say that Johns has a Silver Age bias. While characters from all Ages died in Infinite Crisis, the canon fodder were more modern characters (poor Pantha never did find out her origin). Mongal was sloppily killed to get us back to a classic looking Mongul. With the restoration of the "dead" Lanterns, pretty much all the sins of Hal as Parallax have been washed away. It's not always how he goes, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make me worry about how he would handle Cass, especially since she's on a team that sounds like a bunch of bad eggs. I don't see him in any rush to restore her to being a character worthy of the name Batgirl, a title that (and I'm speculating here) he probably thinks should only be applied to Babs Gordon.
Though in all honesty was Mongal a good thing?
And not all the sins Hal has done have been washed away. He's still responsible for Zero Hour and techincally responsible for the deaths of members from the JSA and others. Hal still has blood on his hand as Parallax just less of GL blood.
Truth be told I was worried that the Cyborg Superman would be modified when he reappeared in GL. After all, his birth doesn't work with Birth Right and has actual ties to Man of Steel origin (he put his mind in Supes ship from Krypton and got a bit of the birthing matrix inside the ship hence why his cyborg body is of Superman).
Yet, Geoff did a accurate job replaying the origin of the Cyborg Superman just not going over the birthing matrix and just focusing on the important elements of the Cyborg Superman's history with Superman and Hal.
I have faith that either Geoff will have a better written Cassie then the one that was shown in Robin OYL. She won't be a Bond villain and probably hopefully the reasons for her being "evil" are more to get back at Slade. Who knows maybe she joins just to get close enough to Slade to kill him. After all who made Bludhaven go boom? Wasn't that Slade's little project there?
You don't think she might be playing loyal just so she could get close to Slade and snap his neck or a one hundred other methods her father taught to kill someone? After all Geoff did mention twists. And you know if Cass ever wanted to kill someone Slade would probably be #1 with #2 being Penguin and #3 well she at the very least pulled a #3 by killing Nyssa.
Constantine Drakon
08-09-2006, 07:46 PM
Word on the grapevine has it that Titans East is a team put together by Deathstroke consisting of:
Batgirl
Lil Barda
Sun Girl
Jokers Daughter
Risk
Inertia
Match
Choirboy
I have to say I have big problems with this. At the least it looks like DC is going ahead with the Cassandra Cain antihero angle. It wouldn't have been a story I would have been crazy about under the best of circumstances, but keeping on that road after the terrible continuity-chewing start in Robin makes me wince. But if the team actually knows who formed them, then I give up entirely. Deathstroke has been fingered as being the one to decide Bludhaven would be destroyed (in order to get at Dick). All of Cass' friends in Bludhaven died as a result. It's too early to know for sure, but if Johns plans to have her willingly working for Deathstroke then he's showing even less of an understanding for her than Adam Beechen showed.
Blight
08-09-2006, 08:01 PM
Word on the grapevine has it that Titans East is a team put together by Deathstroke consisting of:
Batgirl
Lil Barda
Sun Girl
Jokers Daughter
Risk
Inertia
Match
Choirboy
I have to say I have big problems with this. At the least it looks like DC is going ahead with the Cassandra Cain antihero angle. It wouldn't have been a story I would have been crazy about under the best of circumstances, but keeping on that road after the terrible continuity-chewing start in Robin makes me wince. But if the team actually knows who formed them, then I give up entirely. Deathstroke has been fingered as being the one to decide Bludhaven would be destroyed (in order to get at Dick). All of Cass' friends in Bludhaven died as a result. It's too early to know for sure, but if Johns plans to have her willingly working for Deathstroke then he's showing even less of an understanding for her than Adam Beechen showed.
Maybe she plays willing at first and when Slade has his guard down she attempts to kill him.
Sharpandpointies
08-09-2006, 08:37 PM
Arrgh.
This means that:
1. Cass will again be someone whose current character absolutely ignores everything set up in her past.
2. She'll end up as 'just another martial artist on a team' and job to whomever is the Heroic Martial Artist on the team they battle.
Nick Kal
08-10-2006, 12:00 AM
Word on the grapevine has it that Titans East is a team put together by Deathstroke consisting of:
Batgirl
Lil Barda
Sun Girl
Jokers Daughter
Risk
Inertia
Match
Choirboy
I have to say I have big problems with this. At the least it looks like DC is going ahead with the Cassandra Cain antihero angle. It wouldn't have been a story I would have been crazy about under the best of circumstances, but keeping on that road after the terrible continuity-chewing start in Robin makes me wince. But if the team actually knows who formed them, then I give up entirely. Deathstroke has been fingered as being the one to decide Bludhaven would be destroyed (in order to get at Dick). All of Cass' friends in Bludhaven died as a result. It's too early to know for sure, but if Johns plans to have her willingly working for Deathstroke then he's showing even less of an understanding for her than Adam Beechen showed.
Cass wouldn't work for Slade... she just talked about how her dad, Batman, etc. try to keep people like her and Robin down and in check...
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