Devin Grayson - slashfic writer?

[cactusmaac]

Excerpts from her recent DC novel Inheritance: (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446616575/sr=8-6/qid=1151364366/ref=pd_bbs_6/104-3549897-2141552?ie=UTF8)l:

A few paces ahead, Aquaman had caught up with Green Arrow.

“Your boy’s looking good,” he commented, both because it was true and because he was making an effort to honor the role he had assumed as Green Arrow’s chief entertainment.

“Yeah, he is, isn’t he?” Ollie sounded pleased. “That kid’s always been a looker. They all are. No wonder people like to speculate.”

Arthur frowned slightly as Ollie laughed. “I meant he looked healthy” Arthur clarified.

“Oh, yeah” Ollie was undaunted. “I meant the hero-sidekick thing, how everyone assumes we’re doing dirty things with these gorgeous kids in the–”

Arthur used his most regally authoritative voice to cut his friend off. “I know what you meant”.

“You never got that as much. Guess the whole breathing underwater thing is freaky enough. But Bats, man! Well, look at that kid, no wonder.”

and


For just one fraction of a second, Nightwing closed his eyes and exhaled in time with a hot release of breath on the back of his neck, synching his breathing to the presence behind him almost instinctively. Even after all these years, the strange feeling of protective danger that ran up the back of his spine when he unexpectedly found himself in his mentor’s shadow thrilled and overwhelmed him… The entire room fell silent as all eyes turned to Batman. Only Nightwing remained with his back to him. Batman was standing so close behind him that Nightwing couldn’t turn around without bumping into him. Batman had learned years ago that it was the only way to keep him still.

I think she gave a little more ammunition to her critics.

http://blog.newsarama.com/2006/08/02/in-which-devin-grayson-becomes-a-heroine-to-many-and-an-enemy-to-probably-more/#more-693

[Sean Whitmore]

I think she gave a little more ammunition to her critics.


No kidding.

Mel Gibson didn't give HIS critics that much ammunition.


SEAN

[Mia]

She doesn't need to give amunition to her critics. She's already stated in an on line interview that she likes gay porn. And she was actually very graphic.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, I thought it was so ignorant and unproffessional. Can someone please tell me how someone behaves like that in public and doesn't loose their job or hurt their career?

[Sean Whitmore]

I LOVE the way someone on Newsarama put it:

it’s some sort of game of publishing chicken, where she’s trying to see how obscene she can make it before they’ll actually refuse to print it

I think she won. :)


SEAN

[The Shadow]

. Can someone please tell me how someone behaves like that in public and doesn't loose their job or hurt their career?
I think it's similar to DVD commentaries: The opinions expressed by the following writers are not necessarily those of DC Comics and Time Warner.

They can't fire her for being honest.

[Mia]

I think it's similar to DVD commentaries: The opinions expressed by the following writers are not necessarily those of DC Comics and Time Warner.

They can't fire her for being honest.


No they certainly wouldn't fire specifically for saying that. But in my experience from working in the corporate world, They would just find some other pretext to bounce her. For example when the company needs to lay people off her name would be at the top of the list. Or they would just wait until she screwed up royally. I really don't get why she was left on NW so long.

[cactusmaac]

Well, she's a freelancer not an employee. I think she had an exclusive contract which meant DC would have to keep paying her regardless of whether or not she stepped on the wrong toes.

Plus as long as the work is conisdered adequate, DC generally don't care what their writers say in public.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

How could such a hot chick be so fucked up?

Poor girl has issues.

[geordiesteve]

I thought this was some kind of enormous joke, and I was laughing at first, a great wind up, well done everyone. Then I realised it was real.

What in the blue fuck is going on? How could DC ever let it happen?

Anyone else remember a little while ago, a painter in NYC I think it was, who had some slightly homo-erotic paintings of Batman and Robin and DC went nuts, and the whole series was pulled from the gallery very quickly. How is this different in any way?

[TheTen-EyedMan]

I thought this was some kind of enormous joke, and I was laughing at first, a great wind up, well done everyone. Then I realised it was real.

What in the blue fuck is going on? How could DC ever let it happen?

Anyone else remember a little while ago, a painter in NYC I think it was, who had some slightly homo-erotic paintings of Batman and Robin and DC went nuts, and the whole series was pulled from the gallery very quickly. How is this different in any way?


Is this what you mean?

http://www.artnet.com/artwork_images_423822183_228124_mark-chamberlain.jpg

First Madonna and Britney...now this.

[geordiesteve]

That's the one.

[cactusmaac]

I thought this was some kind of enormous joke, and I was laughing at first, a great wind up, well done everyone. Then I realised it was real.

What in the blue fuck is going on? How could DC ever let it happen?

Anyone else remember a little while ago, a painter in NYC I think it was, who had some slightly homo-erotic paintings of Batman and Robin and DC went nuts, and the whole series was pulled from the gallery very quickly. How is this different in any way?

That wasn't put out by DC, and the artist was selling the paintings which is technically copyright infringement.

[Tomodachi]

Ugh. On top of what everyone else mentioned, those excerpts don't even sound/read very well. Maybe it's just me, but the prose reads very bland. Kinda like I'm reading a bad high school creative writing story. But maybe that is just the excerpts, not really long enough to get into the story.

Not that I'm any better at writing.:D

[matrix]

wow, not that the nightwing rape wasn't enough but this just puts me off of her work completly. :evilangry

[Damo]

No kidding.

Mel Gibson didn't give HIS critics that much ammunition.


SEAN

Yeah, he did. First he said he didn't believe X, then he got caught yelling his belief in X, then he gave an uncontrite apology that stopped just short of explaining the whole thing as an out of body experience.

Devin, on the other hand, has always been an open book. That's a lower grade ammunition than being a hypocrite.

[muimi]

I actually bought the book a few weeks ago. (Don't look at me like that. I like Nightwing and like Grayson's characterizations even though I didn't like her Nightwing run.)

But, uh, yeah. The book probably reads better to fans used to, hmm, thinly veiled innuendo. The book is slash fodder which doesn't necessarily make it good or bad. Mind you, I'm also a slash loving fangirl myself and bought the book totally expecting it. I don't like the plot so much as I like the interaction. IMHO like-minded slash fangirls like myself will love it; more conventionally minded fangirls and fanboys will not. This seems to be the two different camps on Devin Grayson, regardless.

[muimi]

Devin, on the other hand, has always been an open book. That's a lower grade ammunition than being a hypocrite.

Very true. She is openly honest, some would say to a fault, about her thoughts and opinions. I have to say that I respect her for that.

[Sean Whitmore]

Yeah, he did. First he said he didn't believe X, then he got caught yelling his belief in X, then he gave an uncontrite apology that stopped just short of explaining the whole thing as an out of body experience.

Devin, on the other hand, has always been an open book. That's a lower grade ammunition than being a hypocrite.


Fair enough. But either way, these two crazy kids need to get together to have some Jew-hating, Nightwing-loving babies! :D


SEAN

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I enjoyed her Nightwing run a lot. It was a great read and really pushed things for Dick Grayson. This however I wouldn't even try to. Its just not my thing.

[trickster]

No they certainly wouldn't fire specifically for saying that. But in my experience from working in the corporate world, They would just find some other pretext to bounce her. For example when the company needs to lay people off her name would be at the top of the list. Or they would just wait until she screwed up royally. I really don't get why she was left on NW so long.

Maybe she was banging Dan Didio and she's good in bed? :D

Anyway, she doesn't qualify as hot, to me at least. Now there's an example of corporate hotness :D (she's some Google bigshot):

http://www.bartnagel.com/images/MarissaMayer_2796.jpg

[Sean Whitmore]

Maybe she was banging Dan Didio and she's good in bed? :D


Would Didio wear the mask and the underarm wings, though?


SEAN

[Damo]

Maybe she was banging Dan Didio and she's good in bed? :D



Uncool man. Regardless of your opinion on her, I've really had it with snide remarks that she got where she is by sleeping with people. Nobody ever made cracks about Bruce Jones doing that to get his job.

[Amethyst Rose]

I'm just wondering how she can use copyrighted characters like that and not have DC say, "Hey, that's not cool." It would give people the impression that, since DC is letting it happen, they don't care how the characters are used.:confused: :confused:

Think what it would do to continuity...;)

[cactusmaac]

Uncool man. Regardless of your opinion on her, I've really had it with snide remarks that she got where she is by sleeping with people. Nobody ever made cracks about Bruce Jones doing that to get his job.

It would explain a heck of a lot if he did. :o

[Kid Lantern]

I say homophobia to you all, plus yaknow, their all totaly gay :D

[muimi]

I'm just wondering how she can use copyrighted characters like that and not have DC say, "Hey, that's not cool." It would give people the impression that, since DC is letting it happen, they don't care how the characters are used.:confused: :confused:

Think what it would do to continuity...;)

The book is licensed by DC but is not in any specific continuity. Obviously someone in DC's novel division stamped it as good to go since it has been published. Admittedly, I love the concept but the writing is so heavily filled with hints of love that perhaps go BEYOND a father-son bond (as the book explores) that it... well...

[Sean Whitmore]

I'm just wondering how she can use copyrighted characters like that and not have DC say, "Hey, that's not cool." It would give people the impression that, since DC is letting it happen, they don't care how the characters are used.:confused: :confused:


Well, it's not like Devin is printing out copies in her basement. :) DC hired her for this and ostensibly read her manuscript, so I would imagine they don't have a problem with it.

And let's be honest...if anyone else wrote the same thing, it would generate a couple of giggles of the "does this guy know what he's writing?" variety. It's only because it's Devin that people can joke about some weird agenda.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

It would explain a heck of a lot if he did. :o


I always assumed he had compromising pictures of editors, at the very least. Only because his stay on Hulk was so long that it had to be protected by fear, not love. :)


SEAN

[Dussan]

wow, not that the nightwing rape wasn't enough but this just puts me off of her work completly. :evilangry


WTF?

That has to be BS.

[muimi]

WTF?

That has to be BS.

What, the Nightwing rape? That's completely canon... issue #91, I believe? For the record, it was Tarantula.

[Dussan]

JESUS CHRIST!

He got raped!?!

By a villain? WTF.

[muimi]

JESUS CHRIST!

He got raped!?!

By a villain? WTF.

Actually, she was his ally. Don't try to make sense of it, your brain will a'splode.

[Dussan]

Tarantula, the woman? The hottie vigilante?

Dude that isn't rape. It's called delayed consensual sex.

[trickster]

Uncool man. Regardless of your opinion on her, I've really had it with snide remarks that she got where she is by sleeping with people. Nobody ever made cracks about Bruce Jones doing that to get his job.

Hey man, I've read far more uncool things on this board. Obviously you still have your innocence :D. But to paraphrase Tony Stark, "I have nothing against her. I hardly think of her one way or another". Just because I'm not a professional stand up comedian, doesn't mean I can't crack a really mean one-liner every now and then.

[Damo]

Tarantula, the woman? The hottie vigilante?

Dude that isn't rape. It's called delayed consensual sex.

Um... no, it was rape. She seemed to think she was "comforting" him, but he was noncensenting.

And now we know the real reason why. *DUCKS.*


Hey man, I've read far more uncool things on this board. Obviously you still have your innocence :D. But to paraphrase Tony Stark, "I have nothing against her. I hardly think of her one way or another". Just because I'm not a professional stand up comedian, doesn't mean I can't crack a really mean one-liner every now and then.

If a guy writes something people don't like, he's an idiot. If a woman writes something people don't like, she slept around to get her job. I have no problem with mean one-liners, it's the double standard I don't like.

[Violently Apathetic]

Congrats, guys. Had I not bought the book a few weeks ago this thread would have ENSURED I bought it. Now I just need to suggest it to all my other slash loving friends.

[Jaye]

It has been a while, so just a reminder:

The Nightwing rape stuff has been talked about quite a lot, and the conversation has gotten caught up in a 'was it rape' discussion. It often turns into an argument of insults.

Please, if you want to get into that subject do a search in this forum for "nightwing rape" and read those threads. Anything further like that on this one will be deleted. Please keep it civil.

Thank you.

[Count Vertigo]

slashfic is just rubbish. Anything in which Harry Potter is getting "special lessons" from Snape or when Parker is meeting Venom for a special rendevous is absolute rubbish. Fan fiction or official. AND NO, I'm NOT homophobic.

[Kid Lantern]

damn I love those stories, that and the ones where for very little reason they have do dressup as girls and end up being seduced by the straight guy........

[Count Vertigo]

dressed up as little girls? oy... thats even worse. what's next PVC mexican wrestling mask wearing elvis impersonators?

[trickster]

Um... no, it was rape. She seemed to think she was "comforting" him, but he was noncensenting.

And now we know the real reason why. *DUCKS.*




If a guy writes something people don't like, he's an idiot. If a woman writes something people don't like, she slept around to get her job. I have no problem with mean one-liners, it's the double standard I don't like.

The only double standard I see is in your head. Double standard would imply that men and women are not different which they are. Besides, she's an idiot too. Happy now?

[Violently Apathetic]

The only double standard I see is in your head. Double standard would imply that men and women are not different which they are. Besides, she's an idiot too. Happy now?

Not to get involved in what could become a flame ravaged topic, but how is implying that a woman slept her way into a position while not making the same implication for an equally untalented man not a double standard? It's possible that's not what you're were suggesting at all, and I apologize but I can see how your comment may not have sit well with Damo.

Yes, men and women ARE different, but both are equally capable of being lousy writers that for some unknown reason are championed by the company without having to resort to quickies on the Editor's desk .'

[muimi]

slashfic is just rubbish. Anything in which Harry Potter is getting "special lessons" from Snape or when Parker is meeting Venom for a special rendevous is absolute rubbish. Fan fiction or official. AND NO, I'm NOT homophobic.

Hey, different strokes for different folks. Another person's trash is another person's treasure and all that.

[AdoraSpintriae]

Devin writes something that might actually start getting DC more readers & buyers and everyone flips out because of the faintest suggestion of homosexuality? Nice.

You do realise you're reading a medium where men with the most strapping physiques & closest relationships to the other men around them dance around in spandex and leather and such, right? How is what Devin Grayson wrote any different from this? (http://the-isb.blogspot.com/2005/11/where-they-went-wrong-superman-and.html) Or this load of trash (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/141651063X/103-8598352-0995817?v=glance&n=283155) which actually has some of the most OOC sex scenes I've ever read?

[Leslie Lee III]

How could such a hot chick be so fucked up?

Poor girl has issues.

She's no more screwed up than anyone who lusts after cartoon characters (read: many, many people on this board).

[stillanerd]

I don't know. Maybe Devin Grayson sees something we've refused to except.

DR. FREDRICK WERTHAM: You see! I told you people that Batman comics were a homosexual fantasy about a man and a boy living together, but you didn't believe me!
DEVIN GRAYSON: Yes, Dr. Wertham. I have made it my mission to right the tremendous wrong that was done to you--by exposing the truth about Batman and Nightwing's special relationship....not that there’s anything wrong with it.
JUDD WINNICK: No, of course not. I mean, I use homosexual subtexts all the time.
BATMAN: I'm afraid not you foul villains. Have you fogorteen my numerous relationships with women?
DR. WERTHAM: Please. You’re overactive libido is a clear sign that you are attempting to deny your latent homosexual tendencies and obsessions by overcompensating your supposed masculinity.
CATWOMAN: And how else can you explain it, Bruce when after years of flirting and teasing and finally going to the bed together, you still went back to Dick?
SILVER ST. CLOUD: And what about me? You said I was the love of your life, but in the end, you couldn't get enough of being with Dick.
JULIE MADISON: And we were even engaged, Bruce but then you broke it off for Dick.
VICKI VALE: And you always neglected me in favor of Dick.
DR. SHONDRA KINGSOLVER: After I helped you to recover from a broken back, you left me with the mind of child for Dick.
VESPER FAIRCHILD: You let me die and found comfort in Dick.
SASHA BORDEARUX: I became you partner, went to prison for you, faked my death for you, lost my identity to protect you, and you still went back to Dick.
NIGHTWING: Jeez, why is everybody picking on me all the time?
BATMAN: Stay out of this, Dick. I’ll handle this.
DR. WERTHAM: You see. A sure sign of the dominance Batman plays in their relationship.
DEVIN GRAYSON: Abosolutely.
WONDER WOMAN: I was also rejected by you for Dick.
BATMAN: Hey, you and I both know Superman was the one you really loved.
SUPERMAN: Hey, don’t drag me into this, Bruce.
LOIS LANE: No honey, I’d be interested to hear about Wonder Woman’s attraction towards you.
SUPERMAN: But honey, Diana and me. It never was...I mean I--.
TALIA: Don’t forget me, my beloved. After you surrendered to me and planted your seed within my womb, you still went back to Dick.
CATWOMAN: Hey, he’s the father of your kid, too? Gee, Bruce, you’re even a bigger deadbeat than I thought.
BATMAN: Selina, it was your idea to raise Helena on your own.
IBN AL XU'FFASCH: Face it, father. You would deny your own children in favor of Dick.
KATHY KANE: You even outright rejected me in favor of Dick.
RENEE MONTOYA: Hey, I didn’t know you swung that way Kate.
BATWOMAN: Wrong Kate, Babe. Hey, Selina? Since you have this thing for Bats, how about chasing me over rooftops?
CATWOMAN: I think you got me confused with Holly.
POISON IVY: Come now, Catwoman. You and I both know what excites you. How else could my pheromones have worked on you?
BATWOMAN: And that tight-fitting leather, the claws, the whip...
CATWOMAN: What about Wonder Woman! She's got that whole bondage thing she’s got going on.
WONDER WOMAN: Whoa! I’m not a lesbian. I hate men but I’m not a lesbian.
DAN DIDIO: Fantastic! More lipstick lesbians.
HOLLY ROBINSON: Well, being Selina‘s friend, I can personally testify that, like her boyfriend, Selina is addicted to dick.
NIGHTWING: Hey, I never slept with her in my life! I mean, sure, I thought about...
CATWOMAN: Don’t even think about it, Dick!
BATMAN: Yeah, hands off, chum.
NIGHTWING: Geez, Bruce, you’re always giving me the shaft.
*Crickets Chirp. Everyone stares*
NIGHTWING: Wait a minute! I didn’t mean it like that!
BARBARA GORDON: Is that why you didn’t marry me, Dick?
STARFIRE: And why you refused to commit yourself to me?
TARANTULA: And why I had to take the initiative?
NIGHTWING: Damn it, Devin. You and your fanfic fantasies have ruined me.
DEVIN GRAYSON: Actually, I’d say Batman did an effective job of ruining you.
JUDD WINNICK: More like Bruce Jones.
BRUCE JONES: *Sniff* Why does no one like me?
DR. WERTHAM: You see, Batman. All this indicates that your homoeroticism even effects those around you. Like your codependency on your manservant.
ALFRED: But I’m a confirmed bachelor...
DR. WERTHAM: And also you’re codependency on Commissioner Gordon, whose pipe clearly is a sign of oral fixation.
GORDON: Hey, I’m trying to quit, damn it!
DR. WERTHAM: Not to mention your obsession with young boys.
ROBIN: Hey, what about Spoiler? She was Robin once too.
CARRIE KELLY: Ditto.
SPOILER: Oh sure. Batman treated me like dirt compared to the male Robins, and you know it Tim. And Carrie there looks pretty boyish to me.
CARRIE KELLY: Geez, you really are an idiot.
DR. WERTHAM: Then there's your rogues gallery. You have Two-Face: clearly a man who is struggling with secret inner turmoil in choosing how to exercise his masculinity
TWO-FACE: Just because my coin has two heads...
DR. WERTHAM: Or the Penguin, who with his umbrella, cigarette holder, and prominent beak of a nose is rife with phallic symbolism.
PENGUIN: Hey, doc, I’m into birds.
DR. WERTHAM: The Scarecrow. A thin, tall, a relatively neat looking individual who transfers his own fears of homoeroticism onto his victims.
SCARECROW: I'm afraid you’ll experience something very nasty, doctor. No wait a minute...
DR. WERTHAM: Characters like Bane, Killer Croc, and KGBeast clearly reflect you're homoerotic sadomasochistic tendencies.
BANE, KILLER CROC, and KGBEAST: Do you want a pounding?
DR. WERTHAM: And lets not forget the Joker, shall we? After all, Batman. Isn’t that the real reason why you refuse to dispatch the Joker? Because he serves as an outlet to deny your homoerotic, pedophilic obsessions?
JOKER: Gee, I never knew you cared so much, my sweet.
HARLEY QUINN: Ha Ha, Mr. J. You’re such a kidder. You are kidding, right?
GRANT MORRISON: Why do you think I brought back the batpoles?
CHEYANNE: Come on guys. Maybe Bats is gay, but Dick sure isn't. I mean, he was turned on when I wore that version of his costume, so if anything he’s into self-love.
JASON TODD: Oh, shut up. Nobody cares about you or you're stupid idoitic statements.
JOKER: Look whose talking, brat. Fans were happy when I killed you.
JUDD WINNICK: Hey, this fan wanted him alive.
BATMAN: So did I.
JASON TODD: Oh sure, that’s why you let me die, right Bruce. You always preferred Dick over me. Why I could never live up to him? I even wore Dick’s old costume, and it still wasn‘t enough.
DR. WERTHAM: Another indication of the Batman attempting to deny his homoerotic urges.
JASON TODD: That’s not what I meant at all.
ROBIN: Come to think of it Bruce, why did you put up with Jason in the first place?
ALFRED: Yes, I wondered that as well, sir.
JASON TODD: And why did you let me wear Dick’s suit? Was it because I looked like Dick?
BATMAN: Hey, you wore the Red Hood costume, too.
JOKER: Hey, good point, my sweet. Guess I should dress up like you to show my appreciation for you. Oh wait a minute, I think I did.
DR. WERTHAM: You might as well come to terms with reality, Batman. The evidence is clear.
JUDD WINNICK: Yeah, why do you think I choose to write about you?
DEVIN GRAYSON: And me too. I’m not afraid to admit it now that I always knew there was something between you and Dick.
BATMAN: For the one millionth time, I am not gay! I’m the G**Damn Batman!
FRANK MILLER: You tell em, soldier. Get you balls back.
JOEL SCHUMACHER: Well then why to you wear that tight rubber outfit that’s so anatomically correct. And those nipples. How I love those nipples you--
*Batman socks Schumacher out with one punch.*
DR. WERTHAM: You see. He denies his latent homoeroticism through aggressive actions towards those of likeminded proclivities.
BATMAN: That’s ridiculous.
DR. WERTHAM: Oh, then how come you are so keen on beating the Joker up all the time?
BATMAN: Hey, Jason Todd beat him with a crowbar? How’s that for phallic symbolism?
JASON TODD: So are you saying I’m gay, Bruce?
HUSH: And me?
BANE: And me too?
NIGHTWING: Hey, just because I choked him to death once...
DR. WERTHMAN: Clearly an act of homoerotic asphyxiation.
NIGHTWING: I’m not gay either!
DEVIN GRAYSON: Then why are you so intimidated by him, hmm.
NIGHTWING: I’m not. You hear me! I’m not!
DR. WERTHAM: Poor boy. Clearly he’s suffered a traumatic experience.
BATMAN: That’s it, doctor. You’ve gone too far.
DR. WERTHAM: Ah, once again, protecting Dick above all else.
BATMAN: I’m his adoptive father, damn you.
DR. WERTHAM: Oh, yes. You’re a guardian of children. Just like Michael Jackson.
MICHAEL JACKSON: Hey, just because I had children sleep in my bed...
ALFRED: My word, Master Bruce. Didn’t you and Dick also share a bed! And didn’t you spank him as well?
BATMAN: Et tu, Alfred?
DEVIN GRAYSON: Wow. I never realized I had so much to work with.
JUDD WINNICK: See why I took on writing for Batman?
DR. FREDRICK WERTHAM: Face it, Batman. I, Dr. Fredrick Wertham, have been vindicated.
*Grayson, Winnick, and Wertham laugh maniacally.*
ANNOUNCER: What now, faithful viewers? Has Dr. Wertham really forced Batman and Nightwing out of the closet? Will Dick Grayson ever recover? How can Batman fight back without casting suspicious innuendo on himself? Will he be forced to choose between Catwoman and Talia to be a father to their children to prove himself as a man? Does anyone care about Joel Schumacher? Or Jason Todd? Find out the shocking answers, same Bat-time, same Bat-channel.
BILL FINGER: I knew you should’ve never given Batman a sidekick, Bob.
BOB KANE: Come on, Bill, you know Batman and Robin weren’t lovers...not that there’s anything wrong with that.
JERRY SEINFELD: Geez, will you people quit stealing my material?

[Francis]

Tarantula, the woman? The hottie vigilante?

Dude that isn't rape. It's called delayed consensual sex.

Not when he has said no and is in no condition to fight her off. Scans of the scene for anyone who hasn't seen it (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/1254819.html#cutid1).

[Leslie Lee III]

Not when he has said no and is in no condition to fight her off.

Oh, he was too emotionally distraught to do anything. Poor Nightwing.

Doesn't stop being funny.

[trickster]

Not to get involved in what could become a flame ravaged topic, but how is implying that a woman slept her way into a position while not making the same implication for an equally untalented man not a double standard? It's possible that's not what your were suggesting at all, and I apologize but I can see how your comment may not have sit well with Damo.

Yes, men and women ARE different, but both are equally capable of being lousy writers that for some unknown reason are championed by the company without having to resort to quickies on the Editor's desk .

Slept with many men to get a job, have you? No? Didn't think so. But then again nothing surprises me anymore. Women usually do that. It's part of their "arsenal" so to speak, because whether we like it or not, man have the overwhelming majority of dominant positions. Like those chicks who sleep with Hefner, or Anna Nichole Smith, or Melanie (a?) Knauss with Donald Trump. Personally I'm OK with that, I'm sick of men acting like women and women acting like men, although it seems to be all the rage at least in some circles.


Hey, different strokes for different folks. Another person's trash is another person's treasure and all that.


Well, sometimes trash is trash and a cigar is just a cigar.

[AdoraSpintriae]

Women usually do that.
No, they don't. I know it might be hard for you to possibly comprehend why a woman might be in a position of career superiority over you, but please, use a little logic. Every woman on the planet isn't Anna Nicole Smith, though you might wish they were.

And really, I would ask, which heterosexual man would be completely desperate enough to take his own life in his hands and sleep with Amanda Vanstone? (Use google, if you're confused.)

[RoguefanAM]

Slept with many men to get a job, have you? No? Didn't think so. But then again nothing surprises me anymore. Women usually do that. It's part of their "arsenal" so to speak, because whether we like it or not, man have the overwhelming majority of dominant positions. Like those chicks who sleep with Hefner, or Anna Nichole Smith, or Melanie (a?) Knauss with Donald Trump. Personally I'm OK with that, I'm sick of men acting like women and women acting like men, although it seems to be all the rage at least in some circles.

I agree with AdoraSpintriae. Don't assume that just because one woman does something, that all women do.

Read her work, there is obvious talent there, and you’d have to be blind to see it. While I don't like that she implements her love/like for homosexual relationships into her work (not that I have anything against homosexuals, I just think it's unprofessional), it's her book and she can do what she wants with the characters. DC gave its consent, and if they can trust her enough to write about their characters, then I think it's at least possible for you to do the same.

She doesn't need to sleep with men in order to gain her position, nor do I think she did. It's insulting to her and women in general for you to assume that.

[boy wonder]

She doesn't need to sleep with men in order to gain her position, nor do I think she did. It's insulting to her and women in general for you to assume that.
He didn't assume that. He made a joke about it.

[Constantine Drakon]

I'm sick of men acting like women and women acting like men,

*Sings.* Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again...

*Adjusts glasses.*

Anyway, getting away from the flame bait and back on topic, I don't see what the fuss is. It's innuendo worth a giggle, but it's not like she's actually making it canon even in her own book (which isn't canon in the DC Universe). She's a good author with some weird quirks. I'll take her habit of implying that male characters are gay over Frank Miller's stating that female characters are whores any day.

[RoguefanAM]

He didn't assume that. He made a joke about it.

A joke? It sure didn't seem like it. If it was, it wasn't funny at all.

[Jaye]

Please, back on topic about the writing.

Drop the subject about women who may use sex to advance thier careers.
If you must continue, take it to private messages.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

She's no more screwed up than anyone who lusts after cartoon characters (read: many, many people on this board).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/09/Wilma_and_betty.jpg/250px-Wilma_and_betty.jpg

Come on Leslie...tell me you don't find those two hot.

[Mia]

I'm just wondering how she can use copyrighted characters like that and not have DC say, "Hey, that's not cool." It would give people the impression that, since DC is letting it happen, they don't care how the characters are used.:confused: :confused:

Think what it would do to continuity...;)

I say the same exact same thing. Two years ago I sat in on a panel by BM Bendis and he said something very interesting. He said that many of his colleagues (ie. writters) were overworked. I always wondered if that was one of the reasons Devin Grayson wasn't yanked off Nightwing. There was no one suitable to replace her with, that and the fact that the book was doing moderately well.

By the way does anyone know what she'll be writing next? I heard a long time ago that she would be writing Batwoman. But Didio (recently) said there were no immediate plans on giving Batwoman her own book.

[trickster]

He didn't assume that. He made a joke about it.

Finally someone without a stick up their ass.

A joke? It sure didn't seem like it. If it was, it wasn't funny at all.

Your problem. After all, someone not finding a joke funny happens all the time.

[Sean Whitmore]

I heard a long time ago that she would be writing Batwoman. But Didio (recently) said there were no immediate plans on giving Batwoman her own book.


Batwoman isn't getting her own book? I thought that was the whole point of introducing her. Wasn't that part of the reason for ditching Cassandra's book, so there wouldn't be a Batgirl and Batwoman series on the stands at the same time?


SEAN

[Kara Zor El]

Stillanerd that was a very funny piece of writing. What's even funnier is how everyone has ignored it. It's great the way you got so many characters involved and brought in little bits of continuity. Very funny. This thread needed that.:)

[geordiesteve]

Batwoman isn't getting her own book? I thought that was the whole point of introducing her. Wasn't that part of the reason for ditching Cassandra's book, so there wouldn't be a Batgirl and Batwoman series on the stands at the same time?


SEAN

I read somewhere that she is getting her own ongoing title. Huh, will go check.

[Brack360]

Batwoman isn't getting her own book? I thought that was the whole point of introducing her. Wasn't that part of the reason for ditching Cassandra's book, so there wouldn't be a Batgirl and Batwoman series on the stands at the same time?


SEAN

Rich Johnston's "Lying in the Gutters" rumor column reported that there will be a new Batwoman monthly written by Devin Grayson with art by Dustin Nguyen. While this is only a rumor column, it is usually very accurate and reported as far back as December that the new Batwoman would be a new version of Kathy Kane who is a lesbian.

Dan Didio has since reiterated that there are no plans for a Batwoman series, but if they were planning one, it is unlikely that they would announce it this far in advance when the character has only made one full appearance.

[Damo]

I say the same exact same thing. Two years ago I sat in on a panel by BM Bendis and he said something very interesting. He said that many of his colleagues (ie. writters) were overworked. I always wondered if that was one of the reasons Devin Grayson wasn't yanked off Nightwing. There was no one suitable to replace her with, that and the fact that the book was doing moderately well.

I have respect for comic book writers, but the fact is that many of their Japanese counterparts are expected to turn in one or more scripts a week, complete with art. I know the American writers work hard, but it's a simple fact that there are people out there that are meeting even harsher deadlines. There are also many talented writers currently out of work. If some of Bendis' colleagues are overworked it seems more a result of DC and Marvel assigning several books to a few favorite writers more than due to a writer shortage. Also, Devin Grayson's sales stayed steadily around 30,000-35,000, often outselling authors on core books, and comparable to what Chuck Dixon had been bringing in. That seems a much more likely reason for DC to have kept her on the book than a shortage of writers.

[Count Vertigo]

...

You do realise you're reading a medium where men with the most strapping physiques & closest relationships to the other men around them dance around in spandex and leather and such, right? How is what Devin Grayson wrote any different from this? (http://the-isb.blogspot.com/2005/11/where-they-went-wrong-superman-and.html) Or this load of trash (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/141651063X/103-8598352-0995817?v=glance&n=283155) which actually has some of the most OOC sex scenes I've ever read?

:rolleyes: Not this again. How many times have I read this in some form or another in other discussion groups about superhero comics

God, talk about reading too much into it. Why does everyone see fit to see sex in everything? I know of that World's Finest issue and have it. Bought 2 years ago in fact at a local comic-con here in NYC. I didn't see anything sexual about it. I guess a friend comforting a friend is considered sexual.:rolleyes:

[stillanerd]

Stillanerd that was a very funny piece of writing. What's even funnier is how everyone has ignored it. It's great the way you got so many characters involved and brought in little bits of continuity. Very funny. This thread needed that.:)

Yay! Someone took the time to read it. :D

Sure, I admit that it was a little corny and a sure sign I have way too much free time on my hands, but hey, why not tackle absurdity with absurdity? (And yes, Devin Grayson's using gay subtexts with regards to Batman and Nightwing--especially her comments about Dick Grayson being bisexual, which yes, are indeed on record--are just as absurd as Dr. Fredrick Wertham's diagnosis about Batman and Robin 50 years ago.)

[Kara Zor El]

Yay! Someone took the time to read it. :D


I've sent it around a few friends too and they all enjoyed it and then got interested in the whole subject of this thread.

[Count Vertigo]

Sure, I admit that it was a little corny ....


Corny?? Not at all! I never laughed so hard in my life!
I think the following response is appropiate:

"BWAHAHAHAHA!"

[Amethyst Rose]

Yay! Someone took the time to read it. :D

Sure, I admit that it was a little corny and a sure sign I have way too much free time on my hands, but hey, why not tackle absurdity with absurdity? (And yes, Devin Grayson's using gay subtexts with regards to Batman and Nightwing--especially her comments about Dick Grayson being bisexual, which yes, are indeed on record--are just as absurd as Dr. Fredrick Wertham's diagnosis about Batman and Robin 50 years ago.)


I just read it and found it hysterical.

Best

post

ever!

IIRC, she had a thing for the NW character anyway, and there were discussions of MarySue-ism thrown around. I just got totally turned off by the absolutely OOC rape scene, anf am not really surprised at the new book. My post was just wondering why DC would allow their characters to be used that way.

Of course, this kind of thing goes on in other fandoms, too. In the Ghostbusters community, there's a good amount of slash, including every possible pairup/grouping involving the four guys and Janine you can imagine. And you'll see the same reactions there that are going on here. Some of it is actually funny, while some is downright (IMO) disgusting. But, hey, they're fictional characters. Hey, I'm a huge fan of the Egon character, but that doesn't mean anything (besides, Janine got to him first). I do have a fictional presence in the GB universe (see my sig), but, even though she's based on me and uses my real name, I know it's just for fun. Comics should be the same way.

[Count Vertigo]

Rose hit the nail on the head. Some of the slash stuff is just plain unnecessary. I do know that some people enjoy and I know it's just for fun but honestly, how can anyone think of Potter getting it on with Hermione as "hot?" Come on. Even worse is that yaoi stuff.

[Amethyst Rose]

Hey, what exactly is yaoi? Or do I really want to know?

[Violently Apathetic]

Yaoi is a term for pairing male characters from anime or manga in explicit sexual relationships. It's an acronym of a Japanese phrase 'yama nashi, ochi nashi, imi nashi', which basically means "no climax, no punch line, no meaning." The term for lighter or fluffier versions of the same thing is 'shonen ai'

[Mia]

I have respect for comic book writers, but the fact is that many of their Japanese counterparts are expected to turn in one or more scripts a week, complete with art. I know the American writers work hard, but it's a simple fact that there are people out there that are meeting even harsher deadlines. There are also many talented writers currently out of work. If some of Bendis' colleagues are overworked it seems more a result of DC and Marvel assigning several books to a few favorite writers more than due to a writer shortage.

Bendis said that for every serious writer who submits a script. There are 20 teenage kids who do the same. And the editor has to try and feret out the wheat from the chaff.



Also, Devin Grayson's sales stayed steadily around 30,000-35,000, often outselling authors on core books, and comparable to what Chuck Dixon had been bringing in. That seems a much more likely reason for DC to have kept her on the book than a shortage of writers.

Actually Chuck's run averaged around 35k a month, and this was prior to when he left (they were much higher in the 45k range when he and McDaniel were on the book together) The numbers plummetted with Devin Grayson to around 28k a month until the WG cross over, and of course the NW Year One (written by Chuck and Scott Beatty) then they remained steady around 35k. I know this 'cause I've collected the numbers on NW.

[AdoraSpintriae]

Why does everyone see fit to see sex in everything?
Because the creators make it so.

Rose hit the nail on the head. Some of the slash stuff is just plain unnecessary. I do know that some people enjoy and I know it's just for fun but honestly, how can anyone think of Potter getting it on with Hermione as "hot?" Come on. Even worse is that yaoi stuff.
Er, you might want to look up the definition of "slash". Slash isn't heterosexual.

And pornography is never unecessary. ;)

[stealthwise]

Blarghl. The actual prose in the first post was really bad, regardless of the slash content.

[saintsaucey]

Okay, if Devin had chosen to write about Wonder Girl Cassie Sandsmark and Super Girl then most of you all wouldn't be bitchen and you know it. I won't read it, I don't get into guy on guy stuff but I'm not gonna judge her for it. And just because a women is succesfull at what she does, does not mean she slept with someone to get there.

[Sean Whitmore]

Okay, if Devin had chosen to write about Wonder Girl Cassie Sandsmark and Super Girl then most of you all wouldn't be bitchen and you know it.


For what it's worth, I would still make fun of it. :)


SEAN

[Count Vertigo]

LOL "never unnecessary"!! But I do know what slash means. Look at my earlier post.

I got my first disgusting dose of it some time ago when I was looking for Harry Potter fanfic for my niece and I came across a rather nasty one of Ron expressing his feelings for Harry and rubbing his inside leg during Potions. Okay then... It really didn't help that it was done in that annoying, sugary cutesy manga style. The worse was Luna making out with Hermione. UGH. I so DESPISE chanslash.

Now before you go off and label me a homophobe, let me make it clear I am not one and have a few friends which are gay and lesbian.

Because the creators make it so.


Er, you might want to look up the definition of "slash". Slash isn't heterosexual.

And pornography is never unecessary. ;)

[stealthwise]

Okay, if Devin had chosen to write about Wonder Girl Cassie Sandsmark and Super Girl then most of you all wouldn't be bitchen and you know it. I won't read it, I don't get into guy on guy stuff but I'm not gonna judge her for it. And just because a women is succesfull at what she does, does not mean she slept with someone to get there.

I'm not judging her. Grayson appears to have gotten where she is on her own merits, although I'll be damned if I can see why, as her writing seems mundane to me, at best.

And the lesbian sex fanfic does nothing for me. At all. In fact, it seems a lot worse, with the latest trend in Hollywood (as the major media form, tv and other media are guilty as well) being to heterosexualize the lesbian experience and make it more acceptable to be a lesbian by appealing to the fantasies of horny men, and featuring only extremely attractive young women in sexual situations.

[Damo]

Bendis said that for every serious writer who submits a script. There are 20 teenage kids who do the same. And the editor has to try and feret out the wheat from the chaff.

Maybe so. I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of the industry. All I know is that there are talented writers out of work at the moment while he frequently works on more than one book, which is not usual for American comic writers. I just want more evidence than his word to believe that the writers in the industry are seriously overworked due to an overall lack of writers. I admit that I have largely disliked his own work, and I hope that hasn't colored my judgement of what he says, but I have to admit it is possible that I would find it more believable coming from someone else. I'd like to think I can be more impartial than that, but I think it's only fair to admit that it's possible I'm not.




Actually Chuck's run averaged around 35k a month, and this was prior to when he left (they were much higher in the 45k range when he and McDaniel were on the book together) The numbers plummetted with Devin Grayson to around 28k a month until the WG cross over, and of course the NW Year One (written by Chuck and Scott Beatty) then they remained steady around 35k. I know this 'cause I've collected the numbers on NW.

You're not the only one. I added them up and did the math. Her average sales were 33,249 a month, by my numbers. Certainly a drop from Chuck's sales, but still within the top 100, and hardly low enough to be a cause to fire someone.

[Mia]

Maybe so. I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of the industry. All I know is that there are talented writers out of work at the moment while he frequently works on more than one book, which is not usual for American comic writers. I just want more evidence than his word to believe that the writers in the industry are seriously overworked due to an overall lack of writers. I admit that I have largely disliked his own work, and I hope that hasn't colored my judgement of what he says, but I have to admit it is possible that I would find it more believable coming from someone else. I'd like to think I can be more impartial than that, but I think it's only fair to admit that it's possible I'm not. .

Where did you hear that Bendis said that writers were overworked due to a lack of writers?

[Damo]

I must have misinterpreted what you said then. I thougt that your general argument was that Devin couldn't be pulled off the book, due to a lack of writers available to take over for her (with the lack of writers being the reason Bendis said he and others were overworked).

[AdoraSpintriae]

But I do know what slash means. Look at my earlier post.
Ah, no, you still seem to think it's only porn. It's not. A good deal of slash is just homosexual romance, with no sex involved. What's wrong with that? They're just love stories.

[Kari Anna]

I actually bought the book a few weeks ago. (Don't look at me like that. I like Nightwing and like Grayson's characterizations even though I didn't like her Nightwing run.)

But, uh, yeah. The book probably reads better to fans used to, hmm, thinly veiled innuendo. The book is slash fodder which doesn't necessarily make it good or bad. Mind you, I'm also a slash loving fangirl myself and bought the book totally expecting it. I don't like the plot so much as I like the interaction. IMHO like-minded slash fangirls like myself will love it; more conventionally minded fangirls and fanboys will not. This seems to be the two different camps on Devin Grayson, regardless.

*raises her hand* Hey Muimi! Haven't read the book yet, but I plan on it.

I'm also a slasher, and I liked the excerpts. Parts of them seemed a bit sparse on details, but that could be because they're just that: excerpts. Or it could be because you get that in almost any person's writing. Even those who have a tendency to go overboard on the details sometimes skimp in the wrong place.

I haven't read the recent Nightwing books either, but I've heard just how OOC Grayson made Dick. I don't like OOC even in the slash I read. I'm not defending her; I'm defending a book.

Okay, I'm done ranting. I'll just go back to looking forward to reading the book.

[Kari Anna]

Ah, no, you still seem to think it's only porn. It's not. A good deal of slash is just homosexual romance, with no sex involved. What's wrong with that? They're just love stories.

Indeed. Some of us slashers *raises her hand* have never written anything more than kissing and cuddling. Totally innocent stuff. Of the sort even non-homophobic conservatives would let even their ten and twelve year olds read. I can't speak for every slasher, obviously, but for me it's not OMGtehHAWT, it's OMGtehAWW.

[Nick Kal]

I flipped through this book at my comic shop... pretty hilarious.

"Green Arrow didn't understand what 'Going Cowboy' meant to Nightwing..."

Devin Grayson is too awesome.

[Merey]

Have you guys ever watched an episode of "Smallville"? Over at Television Without Pity (http://televisionwithoutpity.com), that show constantly gets the award for most HoYay (Homoeroticism, Yay! - "a celebration of textual and subtextual homoeroticism"). So, in my mind, Grayson is just reflecting the trends of current popular culture. I'm sorry to say, but comics is a bit behind the times compared to other forms of art and entertainment.

And I'm not a Grayson apologist. I have no opinion of the woman or her work, but I like that she apparently lovingly writes her superheroes with a light heart.

Also, I wouldn't consider this slash fic. Slash fic is WAY MORE overt with its homoerotic undertones, to the point that it's homoerotic overtones. So, until Batman and Nightwing are embracing and making their way to the BatBed, I'll just say that Grayson is having fun with some decades homoerotic subtext.

[Pennyghost]

I'm a comicfangirl who occasionally likes slash. But I still think that Devin's writing corny and embarassing. Don't get me wrong, there are/were definitely tons of worse writers out there, but she's definitely not what I would consider particularly good (particularly because she fangirls Nightwing so much she loses all sense of perspective which results in bad comics).

I say rather than giving her a book they should let her lose on some special issue Elseworld, something like that Wonderwoman/Superman/Lana Lang threesome nazi AU by Claremont (from the category "things that are more nuts than Devin Grayson").

Basically, it's not DC had to wait for Grayson to produce some mindbending cracky stuff.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

What was that line from Joe Jackson? (The English singer not the baseball player)

You don't want to sound dumb
Don't want to offend
So dont call me a faggot
Not unless you are a friend


Okay...pat lines.

Gays are people too.
I'm not a homophobe...but.
I don't like the act but don't mind the people.

Of course, the last word on homosexuality must go to the character of Dr Perry Cox (no pun intended) from that great show scrubs, more than brilliantly played by John C McGinley.

" I would never compare you to the gays. I like the gays. I like their music. I like their sense of style. I especially like what they've done with Halloween"

I think Devin needs a hug.

I'd gladly give it to her but then Jay Faerber would have my legs broke.