Lazy Writing

[StoneGold]

I am getting pretty sick of the use of the term lazy writing. Especially when it seems like at least 90% of the time, what is really meant is "writing I don't like, but by calling it lazy, I can try to put it in some kind of quantifiable catagory."

Lazy writing is random 1970s-era Marvel Team Up issue where Spidey and random hero fight villain based on a movie the writer saw last week. Lazy writing is not Spider-Man took off his mask. In fact, that's quite un-lazy writing. That's strenuous writing. You might not like it, but that's an entirely different issue.

[Shellhead]

I am getting pretty sick of the use of the term lazy writing. Especially when it seems like at least 90% of the time, what is really meant is "writing I don't like, but by calling it lazy, I can try to put it in some kind of quantifiable catagory."

Lazy writing is random 1970s-era Marvel Team Up issue where Spidey and random hero fight villain based on a movie the writer saw last week. Lazy writing is not Spider-Man took off his mask. In fact, that's quite un-lazy writing. That's strenuous writing. You might not like it, but that's an entirely different issue.

I agree with your overall point. However, I do find that Bendis often writes dialogue that goes beyond schtick and veers into lazy writing.

[StoneGold]

I agree with your overall point. However, I do find that Bendis often writes dialogue that goes beyond schtick and veers into lazy writing.
I'm still going to call you on this then. I just did a search on your name. You only started using the term lazy writing fairly recently. Like well within after it became a part of the comic book internet vernacular. Now, would you have called a writer specifically on "lazy writing" a year ago? Because I just looked, and you didn't. Now, you might call someone on crappy dialogue, but crappy dialogue is more of a personal thing. Hey, I think Mamet overdoes it sometimes. Other people think he's a genius. But lazy writing is trying to put some kind of quantifiable term on it. And that's what I have a problem with.



Well, that and bandwagoning on a stupid phrase that wasn't being used a year ago.

[Shellhead]

It's been a long time since I had to write papers for school, and somewhat longer than that since I heard the term "lazy writing." (I'd like to think that my writing got better after I took a journalism class and started writing for the high school newspaper.) Anyway, I think that "lazy writing" is a very old term that English teachers have been scribbling on the papers they grade with red marker since, well, the invention of the red marker. So I don't think that it's a new fad term at all, though I do agree with your point that it's being used carelessly. One could say that excessive use of the term "lazy writing" is, in fact, lazy writing itself.

[StoneGold]

I'm not saying the term is new, but the sudden use of it on the Internet to describe comic books is overwhelming. And you're right, lazy. Well, unimaginative anyways, inaccurate and not very descriptive. It makes it so rather than describing why you don't like something, you can just pass it off as lazy.

[Paul McEnery]

I am getting pretty sick of the use of the term lazy writing. Especially when it seems like at least 90% of the time, what is really meant is "writing I don't like, but by calling it lazy, I can try to put it in some kind of quantifiable catagory."

Lazy writing is random 1970s-era Marvel Team Up issue where Spidey and random hero fight villain based on a movie the writer saw last week. Lazy writing is not Spider-Man took off his mask. In fact, that's quite un-lazy writing. That's strenuous writing. You might not like it, but that's an entirely different issue.
Oh, there's a lot more to lazy writing than that.

Chucking established characterization out the window to save your "darling". The unmasking of Spiderman, for example. At no time has Spiderman been a sucker. In fact, he's the one who questions authority, at all times.

Writing clunky dialogue that's heavy on fashionable phrases that again go against established characterization.

Creating startling events that don't proceed organically from prior events, simply to catch the attention of the gullible. And its sister sin, not paying attention to consequences, and instead plot hammering them.

[macul]

Would Bendis' (to paraphrase) "so many searched for Parker that the entire Internet crashed" be considered lazy writing? Or just stupid?

[tricksterpup]

Oh, there's a lot more to lazy writing than that.

Chucking established characterization out the window to save your "darling". The unmasking of Spiderman, for example. At no time has Spiderman been a sucker. In fact, he's the one who questions authority, at all times.

I would love to post the picture of Spiderman swinging through the sky in an FF outfit with Kick me on his back.

[StoneGold]

Chucking established characterization out the window to save your "darling". The unmasking of Spiderman, for example. At no time has Spiderman been a sucker. In fact, he's the one who questions authority, at all times.
.
Which is why he thought he was a clone. Or his parents came back to life. Or trusted his best friend's father. Or said best friend, after he tried to kill him half a dozen times. Or got bilked in cash scheme after cash scheme in the early issues. Or had the Spider-Mobile. Shall I continue, I've got more.



Maybe it's less lazy writing, more lazy reading.

[StoneGold]

Would Bendis' (to paraphrase) "so many searched for Parker that the entire Internet crashed" be considered lazy writing? Or just stupid?
Neither. At worst, it's a turn of phrase you didn't like. Seriously, the worst you could do is one sentence? Explain to me why it's lazy.

[Paul McEnery]

Which is why he thought he was a clone. Or his parents came back to life. Or trusted his best friend's father. Or said best friend, after he tried to kill him half a dozen times. Or got bilked in cash scheme after cash scheme in the early issues. Or had the Spider-Mobile. Shall I continue, I've got more.



Maybe it's less lazy writing, more lazy reading.
With the exception of the teen Parker still unsure of himself in the early issues, the examples above are stupid writing, editorially driven by talentless morons, and exactly the reason the lazy writing meme has taken off.

[Paul McEnery]

Neither. At worst, it's a turn of phrase you didn't like. Seriously, the worst you could do is one sentence? Explain to me why it's lazy.
No, that's genuine lazy writing. "the internet crashed" is a juvenile cliche.

[Cei-U!]

For me, "lazy writing" means rehashing old plots and themes, failing to do the simplest research (and I'm talking real world topics as well as comics continuity), overindulging one's stylistic quirks and resorting to shock tactics instead of honestly engaging the reader emotionally and intellectually. That said, there's nothing new about it. In fact, I'd say tons of Silver and Bronze Age comics suffer from lazy writing as much as (if not more than) contemporary comics.

Cei-U!
I summon my two cents' worth!

[StoneGold]

With the exception of the teen Parker still unsure of himself in the early issues, the examples above are stupid writing, editorially driven by talentless morons, and exactly the reason the lazy writing meme has taken off.
Aha. So what you're saying is that if he doesn't follow the history that only you care about, he's lazy. Got it. Thanks.

[StoneGold]

No, that's genuine lazy writing. "the internet crashed" is a juvenile cliche.
It's a cliche? Show me where else it's been used then. Seriously. Show me another example of something in fiction where a reveal was given and it caused problems on the Internet because so many people were looking for it online.


As opposed to real life situations, where news sites actually have suffered stress when real life criseses happened.


Or are you too lazy to do it?

[Tommy]

The first time I recall using the term "lazy writing" here was a general gripe about the quality of American "Man vs. The World" stories. Although I might have commented that the O.C.'s second season was filled with lazy writing (I certainly thought it.)

Generally I define lazy writing as writing where plot and characterization short cuts are taken. Eventually you wind up with something like the 198 (which I consider highly lazy writing).

The basic plot idea (note IDEA) is that the government is protecting the mutants at Xavier's, The X-men appreciate the added protection but are sitting on the fence about whether it is a good idea or not, and the 198 feel trapped.

What actually happened on page was that the Government is pure evil, the X-men inexplicably support them, and the 198 are poor, downtrodden, and misunderstood.

Mainly because they skipped so many necessary steps to do anything other than a generic story.

Mainly becouse they skipped so many nessicary steps to do anything other than a genric story.

[Gary Joyce]

I would love to post the picture of Spiderman swinging through the sky in an FF outfit with Kick me on his back.


Couldnt find the picture but did a custom figure for you to prove the point.

28187

[Expletive Deleted]

I tend to agree with StoneGold on this. Lazy writing and bad writing shouldn't be synonymous.

Greg Rucka basically ripping off the plot of a SANDBAGGERS episode for a QUEEN & COUNTRY storyline is lazy. Mark Millar having Spider-Man join the wrong side in CIVIL WAR is just bad.

[macul]

Neither. At worst, it's a turn of phrase you didn't like. Seriously, the worst you could do is one sentence? Explain to me why it's lazy.

I dunno. The fact that Bendis thinks lots of people using Google could crash the Internet seems like pure ignorance: lazy writing.

edit: Actually, was this Bendis? It was JMS rather than Bendis, wasn't it?

[macul]

As opposed to real life situations, where news sites actually have suffered stress when real life criseses happened.

cnn.com doesn't equal the Internet. Seriously, even during 9/11 when mainstream news sites were overloaded, you could still easily get to other sites, such as message boards, to gather information.

[macul]

I tend to agree with StoneGold on this. Lazy writing and bad writing shouldn't be synonymous.

Greg Rucka basically ripping off the plot of a SANDBAGGERS episode for a QUEEN & COUNTRY storyline is lazy. Mark Millar having Spider-Man join the wrong side in CIVIL WAR is just bad.

I think they blend at certain points. Lazy writing will show as bad writing.

[Expletive Deleted]

Well, yeah. Lazy writing is almost always bad writing. My point is that the reverse isn't necessarily true.

[Tadhg]

I dunno. The fact that Bendis thinks lots of people using Google could crash the Internet seems like pure ignorance: lazy writing.

edit: Actually, was this Bendis? It was JMS rather than Bendis, wasn't it?

Was he being hyperbolic or literal? Either way, I wouldn't call it lazy, but I'm curious.

[macul]

Was he being hyperbolic or literal? Either way, I wouldn't call it lazy, but I'm curious.

I don't have the comic in front of me. From what I recall, it was something along the lines of, "So many people searched for 'Peter Parker' that the Internet crashed."

[StoneGold]

Stupid double posts. See, Spidey did break the Internet.

[StoneGold]

Was he being hyperbolic or literal? Either way, I wouldn't call it lazy, but I'm curious.
Obviously, I took it more as hyperbole than Macul did. I figure, you crash a portal or two, you can make the claim. It was an off the cuff remark from Tony Stark, it wasn't like he had any figures in front of him saying that the Internet had actually broken down.

That, and I thought it was a jab at Bendis' crack the Internet in half remark from a while back.



Speaking of which, I think Spider-Man did break the Internet. At least, CBR is moving like cold tar.

[Paul McEnery]

Stupid double posts. See, Spidey did break the Internet.
In half?
:D

[Joe Rice]

Lazy writing, to me, is usually a writer writing material not up to his actual caliber. But some writers seem incapable of anything but lazy writing: easy hits, fanboy pandering, cliched plots.

[StoneGold]

Well, yeah. Lazy writing is almost always bad writing. My point is that the reverse isn't necessarily true.
That's basically my point as well. Some of the worst writing is incredibly not lazy. And some good stories are just the opposite. Case in point, this is going back a bit, but when Steve Dillon wrote his Punisher Nuff Said issue. Page 1, Punisher kills some people. Page 2, Punisher kills some more people. Etc. But damned if it wasn't one of the better Nuff Said issues.

EDIT: Better example of that is Next Wave. I'm willing to bet Ellis could crap out those in his sleep. Half of it feels stream of consciousness. But damned if it ain't fun.

[Paul McEnery]

Speaking of which, has anybody noticed the way Civil War was set up?

Obviously, they decided they were going to do this thing, then had the prologue written up after the fact in order to justify it.

This whole Illuminati thing came completely out of nowhere, and showed no consistency with past plots or characterization. Or what we would call, were we denizens of the Marvelverse: Reality.

Which is strangely like the practice of Blair and Bush when getting us into the Iraq War. War first, justification after.

[Joe Rice]

I've got no problem with Civil War. It's one of the few cape books I can actually enjoy these days, and definitely the only big summer blockbuster crossover style thing I've liked in ages. It's a fun summer flick, which is more than pretty much every other corporate book can say.

[howyadoin]

I've got no problem with Civil War. It's one of the few cape books I can actually enjoy these days, and definitely the only big summer blockbuster crossover style thing I've liked in ages. It's a fun summer flick, which is more than pretty much every other corporate book can say.I've gotta say, I'm enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would.

I still keep wondering, though - how can Tony Stark's character possibly be salvaged after all this shit is over? I guess you could retcon him (again) into not being a government stooge and a douchebag, or you could have some big, weepy crisis-of-faith moment where he realizes what he's turned into, but I'm really hoping it's none of the above.

[StoneGold]

Speaking of which, has anybody noticed the way Civil War was set up?

Obviously, they decided they were going to do this thing, then had the prologue written up after the fact in order to justify it.

This whole Illuminati thing came completely out of nowhere, and showed no consistency with past plots or characterization. Or what we would call, were we denizens of the Marvelverse: Reality.

Which is strangely like the practice of Blair and Bush when getting us into the Iraq War. War first, justification after.
It's been far better discussed on the Marvel boards than I'm going to devote time to here. But needless to say, unless you are dead set against certain characterizations which have been used pretty consistantly for the last couple of years, the book works.

[StoneGold]

I've gotta say, I'm enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would.

I still keep wondering, though - how can Tony Stark's character possibly be salvaged after all this shit is over? I guess you could retcon him (again) into not being a government stooge and a douchebag, or you could have some big, weepy crisis-of-faith moment where he realizes what he's turned into, but I'm really hoping it's none of the above.
Depends on how you want to define saved. Honestly, I find him the most interesting thing in Civil War right now.

[howyadoin]

Depends on how you want to define saved. Honestly, I find him the most interesting thing in Civil War right now.Oh, it's definitely interesting. One thing I keep wondering, though, is how much of the bullshit he's spewing does he actually believe?

[StoneGold]

Oh, it's definitely interesting. One thing I keep wondering, though, is how much of the bullshit he's spewing does he actually believe?
I'm guessing most if not all of it. Otherwise, he's just an asshole making a power grab. But he truly believes this is necessary to keep the public from turning against their self-appointed protectors.


Or, in more comicy terms, Hyperion felt the same way in the original Squadron Supreme

[howyadoin]

I'm guessing most if not all of it. Otherwise, he's just an asshole making a power grab. But he truly believes this is necessary to keep the public from turning against their self-appointed protectors. Do you think he really believes the situation isn't at all comparable to slavery or to forcing Jews in WW2 to register?

[StoneGold]

Do you think he really believes the situation isn't at all comparable to slavery or to forcing Jews in WW2 to register?
Slaves and Jews didn't have the ability to blow up the earth singlehandedly. Do you think the people who put the Patriot Act together consider themselves Nazis for lookng at peoples' library records?

[howyadoin]

Slaves and Jews didn't have the ability to blow up the earth singlehandedly. Do you think the people who put the Patriot Act together consider themselves Nazis for lookng at peoples' library records?No, but I guess that deep down I always thought Tony might still have some idealism left in him.

[berk]

Civil War doesn't strike me as a particularly interesing idea creatively, but it apparently was a very smart idea in terms of business and marketing: it even made the front page of the local paper, the Ottawa Citizen, a couple weeks ago.

As for lazy writing, I'll tell you what I think ... nah, the hell with it.

[Sir Tim Drake]

My definition of lazy writing is... never mind, I don't have the energy to finish this post.