Marvel's Flagship Female

[o1pickleboy]

Which one of marvels ladies has the best chance of evolving into a Wonder Woman style icon? As in which woman has the best chance of getting a ongoing series, selling it well and rising to icon status?

[Nick Kal]

At this point Bendis is really getting Spider-Woman up there. I would like to see Warbird & Jean Grey at that level, as well, as Spider-Woman.

[Atom_basher]

at this point, i think its storm

[Nick Kal]

Storm? Why's that? She's hardly anywhere right now. Uncanny X-Men.. Spider-Woman is going places. Mini, Ongoing, New Avengers, etc.

[Atom_basher]

Storm? Why's that? She's hardly anywhere right now. Uncanny X-Men.. Spider-Woman is going places. Mini, Ongoing, New Avengers, etc.


Thats only because bendis is suddenly up her arse. spider woman may be going places, but storm has BEEN places, shes in uncanny, and has a mini series of her beginings. shes been played in a two movies by arguably one of the most popular actresses in hollywood, she appears in most advertising for marvel (universal studios, visa....) she isnt based on a marvel male charecter, and has a totally recognizable look.

[Atom_basher]

oh yeah, and storm was in 2 sucessful cartoons

[milhouse123321]

Yep, Storm for me too.
Not that Im a fan of hers, no way, but she really IS the most iconic female face Marvel has.

[JolieBrunette]

For me, it's a tie between Jean Grey (as Phoenix) and Storm. I think they both have equal potential to become iconic characters. Storm, for the reasons mentioned above. Jean, for the fact that the Phoenix Saga has been reproduced in most mediums (cartoons, comics, games, eventually films).

[JLarson]

Spider-Woman. Or Jessica Jones, who should be on the poll.

Warbird? Please. I've read comics for over a decade, and even I don't have a clue who she is.

[Sandy Hausler]

Ultra-Girl. If only they'd acknowledge that she exists.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[bodie_3_7_ci5]

Spiderwoman. Bendis has done wonders with the character so far.

[SabrinaMorrell]

Spider-Woman

She has been revitalized by Bendis, and readers have been reminded what a great character she always was.

[BuccaneerBruce]

I have to jump on the Spider-Woman bandwagon too. From everything I've read, she's got a lot of fan buzz. She seems to be a favorite of Wizard too. All those covers aren't hurting her popularity.

Plus, Spider-Man is the face of the company, so the name tie in gives her the potential to be Marvel's go to female.

[SleepWalker]

I voted Elektra. Despite her ties to Daredevil, she's been able to make a name for herself outside of that book and era. I think she has the most clear-cut personal identity that isn't hampered by being tied to a team or being a female version of a male character.

Now, when I make the last statement, I am in no way cutting on Spider-Woman or She-Hulk. I'm well aware that they're not simply just female versions of their male counterparts. I think though, that outside the comic book world, saying the names Spider-Woman and She-Hulk would instantly for any person bring images of Spider-Man and The Hulk, which is detrimental to the status of either of those two women being icons on their own.

I don't necessarily think the same holds true for Elektra. Sure, it'll bring images of the DD movie and tie with that, but it's not like anyone thinks her to be a male counterpart of Daredevil.

Anyone see what I'm saying or am I just rambling for the hell of it?

[Schmakt]

I would have liked to have voted Elektra... a lot of good arguements for Storm too... but I went with Jean... if only she wasn't dead.

The problem with the "ongoing" thing, I think, is that it will be difficult to have a popular ongoing when one is member of a team. But some people just buy everything mutant, so an X-Man seemed to be the obvious choice...

I liked the Spider-Woman from the 90's FAR better than the original... I don't think she has a chance b/c it doesn't seem like it was fan desire that put her in the spotlight... it was simply Bendis's confusing infatuation with the character. Noone was really clamoring for a Spider-Woman series... or to have SW join the Avengers... eh... she's pretty boring to me.

[Cayman]

I would have liked to have voted Elektra... a lot of good arguements for Storm too... but I went with Jean... if only she wasn't dead.

The problem with the "ongoing" thing, I think, is that it will be difficult to have a popular ongoing when one is member of a team. But some people just buy everything mutant, so an X-Man seemed to be the obvious choice...

I liked the Spider-Woman from the 90's FAR better than the original... I don't think she has a chance b/c it doesn't seem like it was fan desire that put her in the spotlight... it was simply Bendis's confusing infatuation with the character. Noone was really clamoring for a Spider-Woman series... or to have SW join the Avengers... eh... she's pretty boring to me.

I was, and have been for years.

Cay

[Alan2099]

She-Hulk can stand alone without the Hulk being around, but Spider-woman can't escape the Spider-man comparison.

Elektra seems to be going places but isn't uite there yet. I'm going to have to give the spot to Storm. She doesn't just have tghe rep, she looks right. Put a group of Marvel icosn together in a picture and Storm will fit in better than any of the others here.

[Shellhead]

Warbird(Carol Danvers): No. Too many name changes. If she had stayed as Ms. Marvel and hadn't changed her whole appearance while hanging with the Starjammers, maybe.

She-Hulk: No. Her truly unfortunate name has grown on me, but it leaves her permanently in Hulk's shadow.

Rogue: No. Just no. Too much angst, and that extreme accent. No.

Electra: Maybe. But it will take time to live down her movie.

Spider-Woman: No. Like She-Hulk, her name permanently links her loosely with an icon, so she will always be in Spider-man's shadow. And unlike everybody else on this list, Spider-Woman has to compete with at least two other characters for name recognition, and she spent nearly 20 years out of sight. No way she will become an icon.

Jean Grey: No. Too many deaths and her name is just not icon material. If they had consistently written her as Phoenix and not diluted the name with other characters wielding the Phoenix Force, she could have been an icon as Phoenix.

Wasp: No. Too many costume changes, some long absences from comics, and a generic name that doesn't do well on Google. Also, Wasp lacks a flashy appearance, and her powers don't help. In group shots, she's either not using her powers or she's easy to overlook.

Scarlet Witch: No. Lacks a flashy appearance, and her powers aren't flashy either.

Storm: Yes. She has a unique appearance, flashy powers, and has appeared in a couple of popular movies. Her only disadvantage in this day and age is that her name doesn't Google well.

Other: In an alternate reality, Valkyrie might have had a chance. She was clearly the star of the Defenders, and if it hadn't been such a loopy fringe title (which I enjoyed) she might have a more interesting character to get a solo series in the 70's than the obviously derivative She-Hulk.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Noone was really clamoring for a Spider-Woman series... or to have SW join the Avengers...

Actually, her fans have been wanting to see her return for quite a while.
Saying "no one was clamoring for a Spider-Woman series" is not accurate.
I can understand if you say, that there wasn't a massive, huge number of people clamoring for that , but yes, she has plenty of fans who have been waiting over 20 years for her return and as fans, we are ecstatic that a top-selling writer with lots of clout has made her relevant again and has given her the chance to have a solo book.

And why is it that whenever a writer likes a female character, people say they are "infatuated" or have a "hard-on" for them?
It's called "favorite characters"...we all have them.
Nobody says Bendis is in love with Spider-Man or Luke Cage...nobody says Gail Simone is hot for Oracle and Black Canary, I have not seen anyone accuse Dan Slott of having a crush on She-hulk...so why is it that Bendis has an "infatuation" with Jessica, just because he has resurrected her and placed her back in the spotlight?
Any of us will do that with our favorite characters if given the chance.
And Bendis has EARNED that chance, by writing solid stories that SELL.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

She-Hulk can stand alone without the Hulk being around, but Spider-woman can't escape the Spider-man comparison.

.

How is that?
She-hulk is not only a blood-relation to Banner's, but her origin is directly tied to him, and simply looking at the She-hulk's skintone reminds people of Hulk.
Spider-Woman is not related to Pete, her powers are completely different(onlycommon power is the wall-crawling ), her origin is in no way tied to him and her costume looks nothing like his.

(This is not a slam on She-Hulk...I love her.
Both Jessica and Jennifer can stand alone. and they have both proved that they aren't under the shadow of their male counterparts anymore...)

[BlackKnight]

Actually, her fans have been wanting to see her return for quite a while.
Saying "no one was clamoring for a Spider-Woman series" is not accurate.
I can understand if you say, that there wasn't a massive, huge number of people clamoring for that , but yes, she has plenty of fans who have been waiting over 20 years for her return and as fans, we are ecstatic that a top-selling writer with lots of clout has made her relevant again and has given her the chance to have a solo book.

And why is it that whenever a writer likes a female character, people say they are "infatuated" or have a "hard-on" for them?
It's called "favorite characters"...we all have them.
Nobody says Bendis is in love with Spider-Man or Luke Cage...nobody says Gail Simone is hot for Oracle and Black Canary, I have not seen anyone accuse Dan Slott of having a crush on She-hulk...so why is it that Bendis has an "infatuation" with Jessica, just because he has resurrected her and placed her back in the spotlight?
Any of us will do that with our favorite characters if given the chance.
And Bendis has EARNED that chance, by writing solid stories that SELL.


Spider Woman is a good charater, is she Icon status, No. Can she be. Well she will be as long as Bendis keeps pushing her, when he losses his pull, Spider-Woman will go the way she went years ago, back into limbo. Just my opinion.
As for why people say Bendis has a crush on Spider-Woman, it could be because in interviews he said he had a crush on her when he was a kid and the fact that almost everything he writes has her in it in some way. Again just my opinion.

[Shellhead]

And why is it that whenever a writer likes a female character, people say they are "infatuated" or have a "hard-on" for them?
It's called "favorite characters"...we all have them.
Nobody says Bendis is in love with Spider-Man or Luke Cage...nobody says Gail Simone is hot for Oracle and Black Canary, I have not seen anyone accuse Dan Slott of having a crush on She-hulk...so why is it that Bendis has an "infatuation" with Jessica, just because he has resurrected her and placed her back in the spotlight?


I've never made any of those accusations, but I will state for the record that Devin Grayson is clearly stalking Nightwing. She's creepy.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Spider Woman is a good charater, is she Icon status, No. Can she be. Well she will be as long as Bendis keeps pushing her, when he losses his pull, Spider-Woman will go the way she went years ago, back into limbo. Just my opinion.


Just where Black Knight is enjoying a well deserved vacation, right? :D

(unless you consider Hudlin's Black Knight as the "real" deal)


I don't think Spider-Woman will go back to limbo.
I think Bendis has done with her what Byrne did for She-hulk with his Sensational She-hulk book and her FF stint, raised her profile in such a way that even after he was done with the character, many other writers used her and to this day ,keep her in the spotlight, whether as a team member or a solo star.
(at least I hope that's what happens...i would hate her to go the way of Dane Whitman...even though frankly, she was always a much more interesting character. My opinion, of course)

BTW...I am a fan of SW's but no, I don't think she will ever be an icon...people throw that word around too much...the only true female icon in comics is Wonder Woman.
No contest.

[Gaz]

Spider Woman is a good charater, is she Icon status, No. Can she be. Well she will be as long as Bendis keeps pushing her, when he losses his pull, Spider-Woman will go the way she went years ago, back into limbo. Just my opinion.
As for why people say Bendis has a crush on Spider-Woman, it could be because in interviews he said he had a crush on her when he was a kid and the fact that almost everything he writes has her in it in some way. Again just my opinion.
What like her two issues in Alias, or her being an Avenger, which was hardly his idea alone. (She's total Avenger material, as a B-lister without a solo) or SHOCK! in her own title?

[streator]

not that i like her, but i think storm is the most iconic female in the marvel universe.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Yeah that's funny..."almost everything he writes"???

She is only prominently featured in New Avengers and has a minor role in House Of M...how is that "almost everything he writes"? ;)

[Gaz]

Yeah that's funny..."almost everything he writes"???

She is only prominently featured in New Avengers and has a minor role in House Of M...how is that "almost everything he writes"? ;)
Oh, don't forget her one panel in this month's Pulse! :p

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

not that i like her, but i think storm is the most iconic female in the marvel universe.

See, this is a character that I have always felt Marvel totally missed the boat on: She has a distinctive, striking appearance...she is a wondeful character, smart, powerful, strong-willed, she has appeared in two highly-successful films and several successful cartoons and she is part of the company's premiere team:
Why is it then that she doesn't have her own, long-running solo series?
If Marvel had kept her in more or less the same costume from day one, her unique look, her unique status as probably comics' most high-profile black character and her powers could have turned her into a comic book icon to rival Wonder Woman.

She could easily be as universally recognized as Diana.
If only Marvel had done their job.
Give her a freaking solo book, and stand behind it.

[Nick Kal]

For the Storm defenese:

The movies in which she's been shafted to a background character, basically?
The cartoon in which she had as much spotlight as Rogue, Jean Grey, Jubilee, etc?
Not associated with a male counterpart.. but attached to a whole team?

Most of the reason she's popular is because she's associated with the X-Men. On her own she isn't very strong.

Give Spider-Woman time, she's blowing up.

[jam37wcc]

I voted for Spider-Woman not because she is the most iconic but she has the most potential to become iconic. Storm already is but not in the Wonder Woman kind of way, plus Storm could never carry an ongoing series just like no other X-men can with the exception of Wolverine. Storm is a team character and that is where her strength really come through for her as a leader. So, Spider-Woman has the best chance and has become very popular right now. Plus a good writer handling he will give her alot of support too, especially one that cares for her as much as Bendis does.

[Shellhead]

See, this is a character that I have always felt Marvel totally missed the boat on: She has a distinctive, striking appearance...she is a wondeful character, smart, powerful, strong-willed, she has appeared in two highly-successful films and several successful cartoons and she is part of the company's premiere team:
Why is it then that she doesn't have her own, long-running solo series?
If Marvel had kept her in more or less the same costume from day one, her unique look, her unique status as probably comics' most high-profile black character and her powers could have turned her into a comic book icon to rival Wonder Woman.

She could easily be as universally recognized as Diana.
If only Marvel had done their job.
Give her a freaking solo book, and stand behind it.

The challenge with a Storm solo title is that most comic writers are white guys, and many of them would feel uncomfortable about writing a monthly series starring a black female. They wouldn't know where to start.

Which is silly, imo, because what sometimes makes or breaks a monthly title is the supporting cast, and realistically, Storm's supporting cast is not going to be a bunch of black females, it's going to be a more diverse bunch. Mr. White Man Writer should be to at least write some supporting cast members with conviction. Since Storm is absolutely not a normal black female, there will be a fair amount of latitude in what she says or does, so give her a good supporting cast and she has a chance.

[thik_3rd]

this spider-woman love is ridiculous. she's a wack character, and as soon as bendis falls out of love with the character, bendis leaves marvel, or an artist that doesn't draw her as all t'n'a like finch does starts drawing her she'll fade back into an obscurity rivaling her two decade long one.

[BlackKnight]

Yeah that's funny..."almost everything he writes"???

She is only prominently featured in New Avengers and has a minor role in House Of M...how is that "almost everything he writes"? ;)

Oh yea and alias to... don't forget that... I said almost everything he writes.. Let see.

NA-Yes
DD-No
Alias-Yes
Pulse-Yes
Powers-No
HOM-Yes (just as much as Cap :) )
Secret Wars-don't know, didn't read it...
Well that looks like almost everything to me... How about you.

[Gaz]

this spider-woman love is ridiculous. she's a wack character, and as soon as bendis falls out of love with the character, bendis leaves marvel, or an artist that doesn't draw her as all t'n'a like finch does starts drawing her she'll fade back into an obscurity rivaling her two decade long one.
Because she couldn't POSSIBLY be interesting? :rolleyes:
And read the Mays story in Giant Size, she isn't T&A'd up there, she's just a character, as Maleev will do also.

[BlackKnight]

this spider-woman love is ridiculous. she's a wack character, and as soon as bendis falls out of love with the character, bendis leaves marvel, or an artist that doesn't draw her as all t'n'a like finch does starts drawing her she'll fade back into an obscurity rivaling her two decade long one.

I agree, I really don't see all of the fans that people claim she has.. Where were they before bendis started using her in NA.. Hal Jorden fans were all over the place yelling for his return, I didn't see one post about Spider-Woman before it was announced she would be in NA. So, it is my opinion that she is a fad, brought on by the hype of Bendis.

[Gaz]

Oh yea and alias to... don't forget that... I said almost everything he writes.. Let see.

NA-Yes
DD-No
Alias-Yes
Pulse-Yes
Powers-No
HOM-Yes (just as much as Cap :) )
Secret Wars-don't know, didn't read it...
Well that looks like almost everything to me... How about you.
If you count powers, count Ultimate Spidey. And Pulse can't count.She was in ONE PANEL!, literally, one panel, not even the focus of it. Alias she was a guest star.
By that logic Daredevil and Cap are in everything he writes.

[thik_3rd]

another reason spider-woman will never be an icon is because of one question -- which one?
12 years ago, people who were reading comics during their most popular period no this to be spider-woman.

http://underworld.fortunecity.com/blood/201/marvel/spiderwomanii004.JPG

[Gaz]

I agree, I really don't see all of the fans that people claim she has.. Where were they before bendis started using her in NA.. Hal Jorden fans were all over the place yelling for his return, I didn't see one post about Spider-Woman before it was announced she would be in NA. So, it is my opinion that she is a fad, brought on by the hype of Bendis.
Maybe because Hal had been a marquee player for decades? It's not the same, Hal is comparable to the hoo-ha over Ben Reilly as Spider-Man.
Spider-Woman is more like Batgirl or Zatanna, or even Wonder Woman (only reason WW has lasted this long is because they CAN'T cancel it)

[BlackKnight]

Because she couldn't POSSIBLY be interesting? :rolleyes:
And read the Mays story in Giant Size, she isn't T&A'd up there, she's just a character, as Maleev will do also.

Is she interesting, yes I think she is. Is she as big as some people like to make out. No I don't think so... The proof will be in the pudding when the ongoing is released and we will see how sales go.

Right now she is riding on the Bendis Hype and the Hype of NA.

[BlackKnight]

Maybe because Hal had been a marquee player for decades? It's not the same, Hal is comparable to the hoo-ha over Ben Reilly as Spider-Man.
Spider-Woman is more like Batgirl or Zatanna, or even Wonder Woman (only reason WW has lasted this long is because they CAN'T cancel it)

So she has a small fan base that can barley support a comic, got it. thanks.

[Gaz]

another reason spider-woman will never be an icon is because of one question -- which one?
12 years ago, people who were reading comics during their most popular period no this to be spider-woman.

http://underworld.fortunecity.com/blood/201/marvel/spiderwomanii004.JPG
Gee, the different costume and hair isn't a clue?
People can keep 4 different Batgirls straight, can't they?

[thik_3rd]

Because she couldn't POSSIBLY be interesting? :rolleyes:
And read the Mays story in Giant Size, she isn't T&A'd up there, she's just a character, as Maleev will do also.
let's see how well that giant-size issue does. and ahh, yes, maleev. i was trying to think who it was who would be doing her solo title, either him or gaydos. neither will draw her as nothing but a sex object. i don't predict big things for that book.

[Gaz]

Is she interesting, yes I think she is. Is she as big as some people like to make out. No I don't think so... The proof will be in the pudding when the ongoing is released and we will see how sales go.

Right now she is riding on the Bendis Hype and the Hype of NA.
Bendis is writing the ongoing, so she'll STILL have that. And she could easily get Kirkman or Vaughn, or Brubaker after that

[Gaz]

So she has a small fan base that can barley support a comic, got it. thanks.
And someone who isn't reading Zatanna and Batgirl is totally missing the point...

[Gaz]

let's see how well that giant-size issue does. and ahh, yes, maleev. i was trying to think who it was who would be doing her solo title, either him or gaydos. neither will draw her as nothing but a sex object. i don't predict big things for that book.
No-one predicted big things for Young Avengers, did they? And that didn't even have the name recognition.

[Shellhead]

Gee, the different costume and hair isn't a clue?
People can keep 4 different Batgirls straight, can't they?

No. I was only aware of 2 Batgirls, Barbara and Cassandra. Who are the other two?

[thik_3rd]

Gee, the different costume and hair isn't a clue?
People can keep 4 different Batgirls straight, can't they?
actually a lot of people can't get 4 batgirls straight...how many times have you known someone to mistakenly identify huntress as batgirl? i know people who didn't even know batgirl existed, that she was just a character made up for the movie.

and either way, batgirl is far, faaaaar from an icon. an icon is someone that a non-comic reader can pick out. neither spider-woman character could ever reach that status, but in a lineup of 10 other female marvel characters, which is more likely to be identified as spider-woman? the one with a generic red and yellow costume, or the one with a spider on her chest?

[BlackKnight]

If you count powers, count Ultimate Spidey. And Pulse can't count.She was in ONE PANEL!, literally, one panel, not even the focus of it. Alias she was a guest star.
By that logic Daredevil and Cap are in everything he writes.

Did I say she was the main charater, Nope so Pulse and Alias do count. Sorry.
My mistake for forgeting USM..

Lets look at Cap and DD.
USM-Cap -Yes, DD-Yes
Powers-No for both
Pulse -Yes both
Alias-Cap Yes, DD Yes
HOM- Yes for both
Secret Wars -Yes for both
DD-Cap-Don't know, DD-of course
NA - Yes to both..

So yep they are..
Wolverine
USM-Yes
Powers-No
PUlse-Yes
Alias-No
HOM-Yes
Secret Wars-yes
DD-don't know but would not be surprised
NA-Yes

Cage
USM-No
Powers-No
Pulse-Yes
Alias-Yes
HOM-Yes
Secret Wars-Yes
DD-Yes
NA-Yes

Amazing so far he just seems to keep using the same charaters over and over.. (excluding Iron Man, and Sentry)

Spider Man
USM-yes
Powers-no
Pulse-yes
Alias-yes
HOM-Yes
Secret Wars-Yes
DD-Yes
NA-Yes

Personally this just proved a point I made a long time ago.
Bendis keeps using the same charaters over and over no matter what books he is writing..
Thanks for helping me prove my point. :)

[Gaz]

No. I was only aware of 2 Batgirls, Barbara and Cassandra. Who are the other two?

Well, I'm kind of cheating, as Betty Kane (Flamebird) was Bat-Girl pre-Crisis and Helena(Huntress) was Batgirl just prior to Cassandra.
But how many people know Mattie or the fourth one?

[BlackKnight]

No. I was only aware of 2 Batgirls, Barbara and Cassandra. Who are the other two?

There arn't to more unless you go way back to the early, early days and even then it was Batwoman.

Oh by the way GrimJack rocks. :D

[Gaz]

actually a lot of people can't get 4 batgirls straight...how many times have you known someone to mistakenly identify huntress as batgirl? i know people who didn't even know batgirl existed, that she was just a character made up for the movie.

and either way, batgirl is far, faaaaar from an icon. an icon is someone that a non-comic reader can pick out. neither spider-woman character could ever reach that status, but in a lineup of 10 other female marvel characters, which is more likely to be identified as spider-woman? the one with a generic red and yellow costume, or the one with a spider on her chest?
I'm not exactly arguing the icon part. I don't think she is or will be either, but I also don't think she's a worthless character that is ONLY being used because Bendis had a schoolboy crush. He pitched an Alias style SW book way back, and that's the route the solo's going. He does that well, and thus it should be enjoyable, and even successful

[thik_3rd]

No. I was only aware of 2 Batgirls, Barbara and Cassandra. Who are the other two?
theres a mute assassin one too...or is that cassandra?

[BlackKnight]

Well, I'm kind of cheating, as Betty Kane (Flamebird) was Bat-Girl pre-Crisis and Helena(Huntress) was Batgirl just prior to Cassandra.
But how many people know Mattie or the fourth one?

Spider-Woman-Jessica Drew
Spider-Woman-Julia Carpenter
Spider-Woman-Mattie
Arana
Spider-Girl

All very similar to eachother. Spider-woman in any incaration is far from iconic and never will be iconic.

Pre-crisis, alternate world stuff, to dreg up two more batgirls, talk about reaching.

[Gaz]

Did I say she was the main charater, Nope so Pulse and Alias do count. Sorry.
My mistake for forgeting USM..

Lets look at Cap and DD.
USM-Cap -Yes, DD-Yes
Powers-No for both
Pulse -Yes both
Alias-Cap Yes, DD Yes
HOM- Yes for both
Secret Wars -Yes for both
DD-Cap-Don't know, DD-of course
NA - Yes to both..

So yep they are..
Wolverine
USM-Yes
Powers-No
PUlse-Yes
Alias-No
HOM-Yes
Secret Wars-yes
DD-don't know but would not be surprised
NA-Yes

Cage
USM-No
Powers-No
Pulse-Yes
Alias-Yes
HOM-Yes
Secret Wars-Yes
DD-Yes
NA-Yes

Amazing so far he just seems to keep using the same charaters over and over.. (excluding Iron Man, and Sentry)

Spider Man
USM-yes
Powers-no
Pulse-yes
Alias-yes
HOM-Yes
Secret Wars-Yes
DD-Yes
NA-Yes

Personally this just proved a point I made a long time ago.
Bendis keeps using the same charaters over and over no matter what books he is writing..
Thanks for helping me prove my point. :)

And I question using HoM. Given the universe-wide nature. Hell, he used Kitty, and Dazzler, both of whom he's never touched before!
Oh, and he's unique in using characters he likes, as opposed to ones he doesn't? Claremont doesn't do it, or Morrison, or Busiek? (And I never said that Alias doesn't count at all, but Pulse is a bit of a stretch, looking to prove your point rather than being rational)

[BlackKnight]

I'm not exactly arguing the icon part. I don't think she is or will be either, but I also don't think she's a worthless character that is ONLY being used because Bendis had a schoolboy crush. He pitched an Alias style SW book way back, and that's the route the solo's going. He does that well, and thus it should be enjoyable, and even successful

Then what are we arguing about, the only thing we differ on is that it will be successful. I personally think it will sell settle at 25 to 35K because Spider-woman simple is not as popular as her fans would like us to believe. When Bendis leaves the book it will drop quickly and be canceled.
Why because as hard as it for me to say Bendis writes some good crime nior books and that is exactly what this book sounds like. So yea it will be good but not huge.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I agree, I really don't see all of the fans that people claim she has.. Where were they before bendis started using her in NA.. Hal Jorden fans were all over the place yelling for his return, I didn't see one post about Spider-Woman before it was announced she would be in NA. So, it is my opinion that she is a fad, brought on by the hype of Bendis.

And where are all the fans of Dane's?
Oh. I'm sorry...u are one of his three fans :D

(Don't hate because Jessica is a key player in New Avengers, getting her own mini, her solo book, a Bowen Bust and a Bowen Full Size, her minimates, a Marvel Select etc...Black Knight had his chance to shine somewhat, now it's Jessica's turn to dazzle... ;)

[Gaz]

Spider-Woman-Jessica Drew
Spider-Woman-Julia Carpenter
Spider-Woman-Mattie
Arana
Spider-Girl

All very similar to eachother. Spider-woman in any incaration is far from iconic and never will be iconic.

Pre-crisis, alternate world stuff, to dreg up two more batgirls, talk about reaching.
Um, to draw up ONE more. Huntress was Batgirl in NML, the same crossover where Cass got the cowl.
And if she doesn't count, May can't either. (I'd even question Arana, as there isn't much overt spider-imagery about the title now)

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

So she has a small fan base that can barley support a comic, got it. thanks.


LMAO!!!
Let's see...Spider-Woman lasted 50 issues...how many issues did Black Knight's book last?
Did he ever get an ongoing that wasn't a mini?

[Gaz]

Then what are we arguing about, the only thing we differ on is that it will be successful. I personally think it will sell settle at 25 to 35K because Spider-woman simple is not as popular as her fans would like us to believe. When Bendis leaves the book it will drop quickly and be canceled.
Why because as hard as it for me to say Bendis writes some good crime nior books and that is exactly what this book sounds like. So yea it will be good but not huge.
Hmm, and yet Daredevil continues on... and Cable/Deadpool, and Runaways and She-Hulk and several other series at that level of sales.
And this is precisely the kind of conversation that happened about YA, "It's not going to catch on..." oops, there it goes with 70k sales. If, oh, I don't know, Brubaker, or Vaughn got it after, will it still bomb?

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Spider-Woman-Jessica Drew
Spider-Woman-Julia Carpenter
Spider-Woman-Mattie
Arana
Spider-Girl

All very similar to eachother. Spider-woman in any incaration is far from iconic and never will be iconic.

Pre-crisis, alternate world stuff, to dreg up two more batgirls, talk about reaching.

So it's ok for you to reach by counting a single SW panel in The Pulse as "Bendis writing Jessica in almost everything", but it's not ok for him to count BAT WOMAN and BAT GIRL as two more bat ladies?
Goose and gander, remember...

[BlackKnight]

And I question using HoM. Given the universe-wide nature. Hell, he used Kitty, and Dazzler, both of whom he's never touched before!
Oh, and he's unique in using characters he likes, as opposed to ones he doesn't? Claremont doesn't do it, or Morrison, or Busiek? (And I never said that Alias doesn't count at all, but Pulse is a bit of a stretch, looking to prove your point rather than being rational)

I give you that Pulse is a strech, but please name a writer that brought grouping have grouping of the same heroes from book to book like Bendis does.
Pulse-Cage, Spider-Man, Wolverine, DD
Alias-Cage, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Cap, DD
HOM-all of them
Secret Wars- Cap, Cage, Spider-Man, DD, Wolverine
USM-Spider-Man, Cap, DD, Wolverine
NA-Spider-Man, Cap, DD, Wolverine, Spider-Woman, Cage
DD-Spider-Man, DD, Cage (I assume Wolverine and Cap but don't know)
Powers-Different universe

Ok so out of 8 books.
Cage-6
Spider-Man-7
DD-7
Cap-6
Wolverine-6
Spider-Woman-3

Amazingly Spider-Woman is used the least of his group he takes everywhere with him.

[BlackKnight]

And where are all the fans of Dane's?
Oh. I'm sorry...u are one of his three fans :D

(Don't hate because Jessica is a key player in New Avengers, getting her own mini, her solo book, a Bowen Bust and a Bowen Full Size, her minimates, a Marvel Select etc...Black Knight had his chance to shine somewhat, now it's Jessica's turn to dazzle... ;)

I don't go around saying how great Dane is in every thread. Also I don't hate, that is only in your mind...

I am glad she is getting her chance, but there are not the 100,000 of thousands fans you try and lead people to think there are.

Also without Bendis where would Spider-woman be right now, oh yea in limbo with Dane...

[BlackKnight]

So it's ok for you to reach by counting a single SW panel in The Pulse as "Bendis writing Jessica in almost everything", but it's not ok for him to count BAT WOMAN and BAT GIRL as two more bat ladies?
Goose and gander, remember...

I gave Gaz the Pulse thing as reaching.. Try again kid.

[Gaz]

I give you that Pulse is a strech, but please name a writer that brought grouping have grouping of the same heroes from book to book like Bendis does.
Pulse-Cage, Spider-Man, Wolverine, DD
Alias-Cage, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Cap, DD
HOM-all of them
Secret Wars- Cap, Cage, Spider-Man, DD, Wolverine
USM-Spider-Man, Cap, DD, Wolverine
NA-Spider-Man, Cap, DD, Wolverine, Spider-Woman, Cage
DD-Spider-Man, DD, Cage (I assume Wolverine and Cap but don't know)
Powers-Different universe

Ok so out of 8 books.
Cage-6
Spider-Man-7
DD-7
Cap-6
Wolverine-6
Spider-Woman-3

Amazingly Spider-Woman is used the least of his group he takes everywhere with him.
Stan Lee. Come on he used the Fantastic Four in Spider-Man, used Spidey in FF, Daredevil and Avengers...
That's what this argument sounds like to me. Minis are also a stretch to me, as they will often feature characters appearing in other titles, no matter who's writing them.

[Gaz]

I gave Gaz the Pulse thing as reaching.. Try again kid.
Heck, I didn't even count Batwoman, Kathy was brought in by you!

[BlackKnight]

Hmm, and yet Daredevil continues on... and Cable/Deadpool, and Runaways and She-Hulk and several other series at that level of sales.
And this is precisely the kind of conversation that happened about YA, "It's not going to catch on..." oops, there it goes with 70k sales. If, oh, I don't know, Brubaker, or Vaughn got it after, will it still bomb?

DD is selling in the 50K thanks to Bendis, (I have always given his kudos for that book).
Also when did I say that 25 to 35K was canceling level, nope never did.

If Brubaker takes over maybe she will continue, but she is not going to be this huge thing, that is all I am say.. Geezzz.

[Gaz]

I don't go around saying how great Dane is in every thread. Also I don't hate, that is only in your mind...

I am glad she is getting her chance, but there are not the 100,000 of thousands fans you try and lead people to think there are.

Also without Bendis where would Spider-woman be right now, oh yea in limbo with Dane...
OK, but saying that she doesn't deserve to be used, is a bit negative. I don't have any strong feelings for Dane, but if he gets a mini, good for you as a fan.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Why because as hard as it for me to say Bendis writes some good crime nior books and that is exactly what this book sounds like.

Again, you are bashing something just because it's Bendis without even doing your homework...Bendis clearly stated that Daredevil was his crime noir book, and Spider-Woman will be a spy thriller...two different genres.
If you are gonna keep on bashing Bendis' work just because he killed hawkeye and he doesn't give a rat's ass about Dane, at least know what you talk about...

(Oh, and before you accuse me of saying that the SW book will be a huge seller or something...I don't think it will be...it will probably be the top selling female title when it comes out, but as we all know female titles are not generally big sellers,not even Wonder Woman, and they are usually relaunched or cancelled)

[pureclint]

LMAO!!!
Let's see...Spider-Woman lasted 50 issues...how many issues did Black Knight's book last?
Did he ever get an ongoing that wasn't a mini?


Yeah and so didn't Quasar and Darkhawk, it does not make then huge characters. Spider-Woman I has not been a marginally used character in the MU for what 20 years? Right now she is being used, due to the premiere writer at Marvel liking her.

Is it possible that she becomes a Icon sure, but has she been super popular, sorry no.

And dude poking fun at one of his favored characters because he does not think she is or will be a Icon is really childish. Maybe if BlackKnight was a chick and had some relevance to the debate but as is your just stirring up crap, and by no means shining a positive light on the character you like or yourself.

Personally, I would like Carol Danvers as Ms Marvel to become the female Marvel Icon, I say she has one of the more interesting, straight forward and heroic pasts of the female leads. SHe also gets around the MU more then just about any other character with ties to the Kree, Shiar, X-Men, Shield and Avengers.

[BlackKnight]

Heck, I didn't even count Batwoman, Kathy was brought in by you!

No, I said that you would have to go back to early batman to find another female type bat charater.

Besides what does this have to do with what I was posting... NOTHING.

[Gaz]

DD is selling in the 50K thanks to Bendis, (I have always given his kudos for that book).
Also when did I say that 25 to 35K was canceling level, nope never did.

If Brubaker takes over maybe she will continue, but she is not going to be this huge thing, that is all I am say.. Geezzz.
But by that token, few really good books ARE selling well now. You're looking financially, we're looking quality-wise. And from that perspective, this negativity seems to say that no-one but Bendis can write her well..

[BlackKnight]

OK, but saying that she doesn't deserve to be used, is a bit negative. I don't have any strong feelings for Dane, but if he gets a mini, good for you as a fan.

When did I say that she did not derserve to be used. Good for her fans.. I am just tired of some people saying that she has this huge fan base when she doesn't.

[Shellhead]

Personally, I would like Carol Danvers as Ms Marvel to become the female Marvel Icon, I say she has one of the more interesting, straight forward and heroic pasts of the female leads. SHe also gets around the MU more then just about any other character with ties to the Kree, Shiar, X-Men, Shield and Avengers.

Of the characters listed in the poll, Carol is probably my favorite. But I can't agree with your description of her past as straight-forward. She has had at least four different costumes, three different names, one power-loss, one power-up, and one power-down. Another character in this poll stole her powers and also ended up with part of her personality and memories.

[Gaz]

When did I say that she did not derserve to be used. Good for her fans.. I am just tired of some people saying that she has this huge fan base when she doesn't.
And dismissing fans as being unrelated to success of a title? Sentry trades were rare, until he turned up in Marvel's top-selling title. The same couldn't happen for Spider-Woman.
You seem to take it as read that no-one is interested, but I, who wasn't a part of this "tiny" fanbase, would be buying it without the Bendis name, as long as it wasn't, say, Austen, instead.

[BlackKnight]

But by that token, few really good books ARE selling well now. You're looking financially, we're looking quality-wise. And from that perspective, this negativity seems to say that no-one but Bendis can write her well..

Well lets look at something for 20 years nobody wrote her, why (who knows). Bendis writes good crime nior, it sounds like this will be at least sort of in that vain. Lets also look at how much Hype Bendis gets and how much hype he gives SW. Do I think sales will drop when Bendis stops writing the book, yes, why because fans of Bendis will read it and when he stops writing it they will leave. Nothing to do with the charater.

[moebius]

(only reason WW has lasted this long is because they CAN'T cancel it)

That's no longer true...DC now owns the property outright.

Actually, it strikes me as odd that after 45 years of "Marvel" comics, we even need to have this discussion. Marvel hasn't been able to create a single female character that stands up on their own as an icon? Wierd.

(not that DC's better)

One thing Spider Woman has going against her is her origin. I'd call the following characters "Icons" for the Big 2:

-Superman
-Batman
-Spider-Man
-Cap
-Wolverine
-X-Men (as a concept, though not necessarily individual characters besides Logan)

The B-Team:
-Thor
-Iron Man
-Fantastic Four
-Green Lantern
-Flash
-Punisher
-Wonder Woman
-Hulk

What's distinctive about all these characters is that you can usually boil down their origins and/or concepts into one or two simple statements. "Last Son of Krypton," "Amazonian Princess," "Berserker with a mysterious past" and all that. Some of them (Thor, Iron Man, GL) have had convolution thrown upon them in later years, but it all goes back to a simple idea.

Good luck with Spider Woman.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

When did I say that she did not derserve to be used. Good for her fans.. I am just tired of some people saying that she has this huge fan base when she doesn't.

Why do u keep saying that we said HUGE FANBASE or HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FANS?
That's only in your mind, man...I used the word plenty, I never said "Yo, Spider-Woman has a hundreds of thousands of fans and her book will be # 1"...

You make things up to back up your statements, man....

[Gaz]

That's no longer true...DC now owns the property outright.

Actually, it strikes me as odd that after 45 years of "Marvel" comics, we even need to have this discussion. Marvel hasn't been able to create a single female character that stands up on their own as an icon? Wierd.

(not that DC's better)

One thing Spider Woman has going against her is her origin. I'd call the following characters "Icons" for the Big 2:

-Superman
-Batman
-Spider-Man
-Cap
-Wolverine
-X-Men (as a concept, though not necessarily individual characters besides Logan)

The B-Team:
-Thor
-Iron Man
-Fantastic Four
-Green Lantern
-Flash
-Punisher
-Wonder Woman
-Hulk

What's distinctive about all these characters is that you can usually boil down their origins into one or two statements. "Last Son of Krypton," "Amazonian Princess," "Berserker with a mysterious past" and all that. Some of them (Thor, Iron Man, GL) have had convolution thrown upon them in later years, but it all goes back to a simple idea.

Good luck with Spider Woman.

I'd go so far as to put WW on the A-list.
The origin is apparantly what Bendis plans on doing first, anyway.

[BlackKnight]

And dismissing fans as being unrelated to success of a title? Sentry trades were rare, until he turned up in Marvel's top-selling title. The same couldn't happen for Spider-Woman.
You seem to take it as read that no-one is interested, but I, who wasn't a part of this "tiny" fanbase, would be buying it without the Bendis name, as long as it wasn't, say, Austen, instead.

Again you are mis-interpeting what I am saying, your getting good at that.. :D

What I am saying is that currently she has a small fan base, that some of her fans try to claim is larger then it really is. Could it get bigger sure, it could also shrink.. I don't know that. All I know is that some fans on here are trying to put her up to IConic status now, when its now true...

[BlackKnight]

Why do u keep saying that we said HUGE FANBASE or HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FANS?
That's only in your mind, man...I used the word plenty, I never said "Yo, Spider-Woman has a hundreds of thousands of fans and her book will be # 1"...

You make things up to back up your statements, man....

Ok, my bad, you didn't say 100,000 but you did make it sound like there have been fans claimering for her return and well sorry there havn't... Heck you didn't appear until NA was already out.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Well lets look at something for 20 years nobody wrote her, why (who knows). Bendis writes good crime nior, it sounds like this will be at least sort of in that vain. Lets also look at how much Hype Bendis gets and how much hype he gives SW. Do I think sales will drop when Bendis stops writing the book, yes, why because fans of Bendis will read it and when he stops writing it they will leave. Nothing to do with the charater.


No it will not be in that "vain" :rolleyes: ...read the interview...it will not be crime noir, like DD was by Bendis ' own admission.
SW will be more in the vein of a spy thriller starring a superheroine.

[BlackKnight]

Yeah and so didn't Quasar and Darkhawk, it does not make then huge characters. Spider-Woman I has not been a marginally used character in the MU for what 20 years? Right now she is being used, due to the premiere writer at Marvel liking her.

Is it possible that she becomes a Icon sure, but has she been super popular, sorry no.

And dude poking fun at one of his favored characters because he does not think she is or will be a Icon is really childish. Maybe if BlackKnight was a chick and had some relevance to the debate but as is your just stirring up crap, and by no means shining a positive light on the character you like or yourself.

Personally, I would like Carol Danvers as Ms Marvel to become the female Marvel Icon, I say she has one of the more interesting, straight forward and heroic pasts of the female leads. SHe also gets around the MU more then just about any other character with ties to the Kree, Shiar, X-Men, Shield and Avengers.

Clint,
Thanks for having my back, I to think that Carol Danvers could become the female marvel icon, since there are rumours of a possible solo book in the furture.

[Gaz]

Again you are mis-interpeting what I am saying, your getting good at that.. :D

What I am saying is that currently she has a small fan base, that some of her fans try to claim is larger then it really is. Could it get bigger sure, it could also shrink.. I don't know that. All I know is that some fans on here are trying to put her up to IConic status now, when its now true...
And you're jumping to conclusions. We're saying she COULD, EVENTUALLY, get that status, but not yet, not even in 5 years time.
Saying that she's only being used as Bendis pet, implies she's not worth anyone using, because he's only using her for nostalgia, rather than because she's a worthwhile character.
Denying the potential and playing up the pitfalls because you dislike a writer is bad form, I'd say.
Marvel gets flak for NOT pushing older characters, and now they're getting it for doing so? Weird.

[pureclint]

Of the characters listed in the poll, Carol is probably my favorite. But I can't agree with your description of her past as straight-forward. She has had at least four different costumes, three different names, one power-loss, one power-up, and one power-down. Another character in this poll stole her powers and also ended up with part of her personality and memories.


Ehh number of Costumes is irrelavant, the different code names is a issue though. But I was talking more about her personal past not her life in the public eye.

I really boil her past down to:

After a military career she became a hero, in a attack by a villian she lost her powers then struggled to become a hero again and eventually rebuild her life.

IT can be fairly straight foward when trying ot attract the casual fan.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Ok, my bad, you didn't say 100,000 but you did make it sound like there have been fans claimering for her return and well sorry there havn't... Heck you didn't appear until NA was already out.

OMG...read my posts again...I said that plenty of fans were HOPING for her return...not CLAMORING...and yes, going by various Message Boards on the net and by the posts Spider-Woman Yahoo group for the last three years, I could say that yes, her fans were really hoping for a solo book WAY before she even showed up in NA...

[Gaz]

Clint,
Thanks for having my back, I to think that Carol Danvers could become the female marvel icon, since there are rumours of a possible solo book in the furture.
Gee, could that be BENDIS' too? Considering how she's in EVERYTHING he does.

[BlackKnight]

No it will not be in that "vain" :rolleyes: ...read the interview...it will not be crime noir, like DD was by Bendis ' own admission.
SW will be more in the vein of a spy thriller starring a superheroine.

So what its going to be like the TV series Alias except with a superhero in your opinion.

I still think it will be more like Alias the comic... Which was crime nior...

By the way, try rereading Clints post and reliaze that others don't find you amusing either.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Clint,
Thanks for having my back, I to think that Carol Danvers could become the female marvel icon, since there are rumours of a possible solo book in the furture.
Yep, a solo book that might use the name MARVEL in the title again, and we all know that she also was a "spinoff" of Captain marvel. (there has been rumours that Carol might go back to Ms Marvel or take up Catain Marvel)
Isn't that one of the arguments used here against She-hulk and Spider-Woman's potential to become iconic? That she was a "copy" of a male?

[BlackKnight]

Gee, could that be BENDIS' too? Considering how she's in EVERYTHING he does.

Well, lets see
HOM
Alias
Was she in Pulse I don't thinks so.

So what two books.. LOL

She has also been in Thunderbolts, not a bendis book.

[BlackKnight]

Yep, a solo book that might use the name MARVEL in the title again, and we all know that she also was a "spinoff" of Captain marvel. (there has been rumours that Carol might go back to Ms Marvel or take up Catain Marvel)
Isn't that one of the arguments used here against She-hulk and Spider-Woman's potential to become iconic? That she was a "copy" of a male?

Not one of my arguements, so try again kid.

[Gaz]

Well, lets see
HOM
Alias
Was she in Pulse I don't thinks so.

So what two books.. LOL

She has also been in Thunderbolts, not a bendis book.
Yeah, and that should qualify her as part of his "team" given that Spider-Woman was in what, 3, so far, as long as you don't count her tiny cameo in The Pulse?
And, wasn't she in Disassembled...?
Jessica Jones was in Young Avengers, Cage in MTU, Wolverine and Spidey, well, you know, Cap has his own book and was in MTU &YA, Iron Man, also own book and YA...

[BlackKnight]

OMG...read my posts again...I said that plenty of fans were HOPING for her return...not CLAMORING...and yes, going by various Message Boards on the net and by the posts Spider-Woman Yahoo group for the last three years, I could say that yes, her fans were really hoping for a solo book WAY before she even showed up in NA...

:rolleyes: please now you are argueing words. Clint is write you are childish.

[BlackKnight]

Yeah, and that should qualify her as part of his "team" given that Spider-Woman was in what, 3, so far, as long as you don't count her tiny cameo in The Pulse?

Hmmm well I guess Bendis likes her to, good for her. :D

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

So what its going to be like the TV series Alias except with a superhero in your opinion.

I still think it will be more like Alias the comic... Which was crime nior...

.
Right, because TV's ALIAS invented the female-spy genre, right? ;)


I am sorry, I really apologize...I forgot that you know more about the upcoming, not even -released Spider-Woman book than the actual writer of the book.
So even though Bendis, the WRITER of the book, has publicly stated , (in A PUBLIC FORUM I have to emphasize)that the book will be a spy thriller, and not a crime noir like his Daredevil, you still think it will be crime noir....
Ok.
:)

[Gaz]

Hmmm well I guess Bendis likes her to, good for her. :D
So explain why him liking a character = bad for character/ bad character, as I seem to be misinterpreting you as saying.

[BlackKnight]

Right, because TV's ALIAS invented the female-spy genre, right? ;)


I am sorry, I really apologize...I forgot that you know more about the upcoming, not even -released Spider-Woman book than the actual writer of the book.
So even though Bendis, the WRITER of the book, has publicly stated , (in A PUBLIC FORUM I have to emphasize)that the book will be a spy thriller, and not a crime noir like his Daredevil, you still think it will be crime noir....
Ok.
:)

You know I have noticed that if anyone challenges your opinion, you just become snipy and sarcastic. I am sorry that you can't handle others having different opinions. I am also sorry that you could not handle that I was saying that I thought it would be a good book because Bendis can write Crime nior or Spy thriller, since they are similar gener..

Please try and stop acting like you are teenager who has had there feelings hurt.

[BlackKnight]

So explain why him liking a character = bad for character/ bad character, as I seem to be misinterpreting you as saying.

I never said it was bad for a charater.. You are misinterpeting me again.

I said that Bendis has a tendance to use the same charaters over and over, showing that he is not good at expanding. (just my opinion, not a fact)...

I do think he will write a good Spider-woman book, never said he would not, I think you are confusing what I post with somebody else.

[Gaz]

You know I have noticed that if anyone challenges your opinion, you just become snipy and sarcastic. I am sorry that you can't handle others having different opinions. I am also sorry that you could not handle that I was saying that I thought it would be a good book because Bendis can write Crime nior or Spy thriller, since they are similar gener..

Please try and stop acting like you are teenager who has had there feelings hurt.
I do agree somewhat.
But you also seemed to assume that ONLY Bendis could write that style well, or that no fans would actually like the character.
Besides, a new writer might take a new approach, a la Slott on She-Hulk.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I am also sorry that you could not handle that I was saying that I thought it would be a good book because Bendis can write Crime nior or Spy thriller, since they are similar gener..



Crime "nior" and Spy thrillers are similar "geners"?

Really?

I guess that Double Indemnity and Laura are very similar to Octopussy and A View To A Kill after all....

[Gaz]

I never said it was bad for a charater.. You are misinterpeting me again.

I said that Bendis has a tendance to use the same charaters over and over, showing that he is not good at expanding. (just my opinion, not a fact)...

I do think he will write a good Spider-woman book, never said he would not, I think you are confusing what I post with somebody else.
The list of characters you gave omits others he's done well, like Ant-Man, Nick Fury, Iron Fist and Hawkeye, as well as ignoring how broad that list actually is

[Shellhead]

Ehh number of Costumes is irrelavant, the different code names is a issue though. But I was talking more about her personal past not her life in the public eye.

I really boil her past down to:

After a military career she became a hero, in a attack by a villian she lost her powers then struggled to become a hero again and eventually rebuild her life.

IT can be fairly straight foward when trying ot attract the casual fan.

I disagree about the costumes. It's very relevant. Wasp will probably never, ever be an icon, becaue the net effect visual of 40+ years of constant costume (and artist) changes is that Wasp is a physically fit woman with short brown hair. That doesn't exactly make her stand out, now does it?

Carol Danvers is basically an attractive woman with long, blonde hair... except when she was a red-skinned freak with a crackling energy field instead of hair. And what color is her costume? Red (original), white (freaky phase), or black (mid-career and current versions)? Generally people have a specific visual in mind when they picture an icon like Wonder Woman or Batman or Hulk, not a collage of costumes and skin and hair colors.

This is why Tide has been sold in orange packaging for decades, why Coke keeps selling in red packaging with a white wavy line, why Nikes have swoosh on the side, etc. It's about building a product that can be quickly and easily recognized by the consumer. And it's why Superman Red and Blue went away quickly and Spider-man put back on his classic costume.

[BlackKnight]

Crime "nior" and Spy thrillers are similar "geners"?

Really?

I guess that Double Indemnity and Laura are very similar to Octopussy and A View To A Kill after all....

Look I give Bendis a complement and say I think he will do a good job on this book and you are arguing with me.. why?

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I disagree about the costumes. It's very relevant. Wasp will probably never, ever be an icon, becaue the net effect visual of 40+ years of constant costume (and artist) changes is that Wasp is a physically fit woman with short brown hair. That doesn't exactly make her stand out, now does it?

Carol Danvers is basically an attractive woman with long, blonde hair... except when she was a red-skinned freak with a crackling energy field instead of hair. And what color is her costume? Red (original), white (freaky phase), or black (mid-career and current versions)? Generally people have a specific visual in mind when they picture an icon like Wonder Woman or Batman or Hulk, not a collage of costumes and skin and hair colors.

This is why Tide has been sold in orange packaging for decades, why Coke keeps selling in red packaging with a white wavy line, why Nikes have swoosh on the side, etc. It's about building a product that can be quickly and easily recognized by the consumer. And it's why Superman Red and Blue went away quickly and Spider-man put back on his classic costume.



I absolutely agree with your point about the costumes.
(And that's why I mentioned in a previous post that one of the things that would've helped Storm become iconic was if Marvel stuck with one costume.
She already has a distinctive physical appearance, unlike the generic brunette and blond that Jessica and Carol are, but a consistent packaging always helps.)

Supes, Bats, Wondy and Spidey and all those icons have had costume changes, but they were tweaks that still retained the basics...and whenever they have had major reimaginings, they always revert to the more recognizable model...

[BlackKnight]

The list of characters you gave omits others he's done well, like Ant-Man, Nick Fury, Iron Fist and Hawkeye, as well as ignoring how broad that list actually is

Well I can't say about Iron Fist or nick fury, but in my opinion he wrote a horrible Hawkeye that was just Bendis's mouthpeice and Ant-Man was just his sacrifical lamb in both Alias and NA..

[BlackKnight]

I absolutely agree with your point about the costumes.
(And that's why I mentioned in a previous post that one of the things that would've helped Storm become iconic was if Marvel stuck with one costume.
She already has a distinctive physical appearance, unlike the generic brunette and blond that Jessica and Carol are, but a consistent packaging always helps.)

Supes, Bats, Wondy and Spidey and all those icons have had costume changes, but they were tweaks that still retained the basics...and whenever they have had major reimaginings, they always revert to the more recognizable model...

Well with this I agree with you.. Amazing.

[BlackKnight]

I disagree about the costumes. It's very relevant. Wasp will probably never, ever be an icon, becaue the net effect visual of 40+ years of constant costume (and artist) changes is that Wasp is a physically fit woman with short brown hair. That doesn't exactly make her stand out, now does it?

Carol Danvers is basically an attractive woman with long, blonde hair... except when she was a red-skinned freak with a crackling energy field instead of hair. And what color is her costume? Red (original), white (freaky phase), or black (mid-career and current versions)? Generally people have a specific visual in mind when they picture an icon like Wonder Woman or Batman or Hulk, not a collage of costumes and skin and hair colors.

This is why Tide has been sold in orange packaging for decades, why Coke keeps selling in red packaging with a white wavy line, why Nikes have swoosh on the side, etc. It's about building a product that can be quickly and easily recognized by the consumer. And it's why Superman Red and Blue went away quickly and Spider-man put back on his classic costume.

I agree that a costume that stands out and is remains basically the same does help..
Carol is still my fave of all of the charaters listed, but I see your point.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Well with this I agree with you.. Amazing.

See, we can agree on something... :D


This December, all the secrets of Jessica Drew's past are finally revealed!
http://www.tomburgos.com/ORIGINSWbanner.jpg

[BlackKnight]

See, we can agree on something... :D


This December, all the secrets of Jessica Drew's past are finally revealed!
http://www.tomburgos.com/ORIGINSWbanner.jpg

We could agree on more or at least see our points of view if you were a little less sarcatic about it..
Just a suggestion...

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

We could agree on more or at least see our points of view if you were a little less sarcatic about it..
Just a suggestion...
And maybe if you were a little less confrontational and rude about it, it would help too, deal?

Seriously...truce? :)


This December, all the secrets of Jessica Drew's past are finally revealed!
http://www.tomburgos.com/ORIGINSWbanner.jpg

[Atom_basher]

For the Storm defenese:

The movies in which she's been shafted to a background character, basically?
The cartoon in which she had as much spotlight as Rogue, Jean Grey, Jubilee, etc?
Not associated with a male counterpart.. but attached to a whole team?

Most of the reason she's popular is because she's associated with the X-Men. On her own she isn't very strong.

Give Spider-Woman time, she's blowing up.

so what that she is associated with a team, so is captain america. the A on his head might as well stand for avengers, and guess what, hes extremely iconic.

what movies has spiderwoman been in?..........oh yeah.

[BlackKnight]

And maybe if you were a little less confrontational and rude about it, it would help too, deal?

Seriously...truce? :)


This December, all the secrets of Jessica Drew's past are finally revealed!
http://www.tomburgos.com/ORIGINSWbanner.jpg

Hmmm, I admit I am confrontational. Rude, well I don't think so, but I will try and be nicer, but don't expect me to be postive about stuff that I don't think are good.

If this is ok with then truce. (this means no more of your "if you don't like it don't buy it" or similar posts to me.)

Deal

[crystalline green]

Well all arguments against Spiderwoman aside, she is certainly winning this poll. That's gotta count for something. I am an old fan of hers and am glad to see her back in the spotlight, but in the end I voted for Storm. I agree with Shellhead and ChildoftheDarkholde that Marvel hasn't really won behind her and made her as iconic as she has the potential of being, but I still think she's the Wonder Woman of the Marvel Universe. We know Singer went on record as saying he never liked the character so I'm not surprised she got the short shift in the X-films. If Storm is given an opportunity to actually be more like comic version in the next X-film or if they do get around to doing that Storm film they've been mumbling about (and they actually do a good job of it) who knows?

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

so what that she is associated with a team, so is captain america. the A on his head might as well stand for avengers, and guess what, hes extremely iconic.

what movies has spiderwoman been in?..........oh yeah.

None yet.
But hey...you never know...didn't Fox say that there would be a total of six Spider-Man films when all it's said and done? ;)
(Hey, I can dream....even a cameo of a gorgeous blue-eyed, dark-haired woman in a Spider-Man sequel would make me happy! Have her be the lead detective at the scene of a crime, and have one of her cops call her with a "Drew, come here! You need to see this!" Even that will be fanboy heaven for me...)

[BlackKnight]

None yet.
But hey...you never know...didn't Fox say that there would be a total of six Spider-Man films when all it's said and done? ;)
(Hey, I can dream....even a cameo of a gorgeous blue-eyed, dark-haired woman in a Spider-Man sequel would make me happy! Have her be the lead detective at the scene of a crime, and have one of her cops call her with a "Drew, come here! You need to see this!" Even that will be fanboy heaven for me...)

Hey even I would think that was cool...

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Hey even I would think that was cool...

LOL!!!
Hey, we both have a reputation to maintain around here, you know!
We really have to stop agreeing with each other so much... :D ;)

This December, all the secrets of Jessica Drew's past are finally revealed!
http://www.tomburgos.com/ORIGINSWbanner.jpg

[o1pickleboy]

Yeah and so didn't Quasar and Darkhawk, it does not make then huge characters. Spider-Woman I has not been a marginally used character in the MU for what 20 years? Right now she is being used, due to the premiere writer at Marvel liking her.

Is it possible that she becomes a Icon sure, but has she been super popular, sorry no.

And dude poking fun at one of his favored characters because he does not think she is or will be a Icon is really childish. Maybe if BlackKnight was a chick and had some relevance to the debate but as is your just stirring up crap, and by no means shining a positive light on the character you like or yourself.

Personally, I would like Carol Danvers as Ms Marvel to become the female Marvel Icon, I say she has one of the more interesting, straight forward and heroic pasts of the female leads. SHe also gets around the MU more then just about any other character with ties to the Kree, Shiar, X-Men, Shield and Avengers.



This is the reason I voted for her. She has ties to just about everyone. Her solo comic could touch on all sub-universes in comics from space to street. Having some connections to the X-Men and Avengers does hurt either.

With all that going for her, in my opinion if used right her comic could sell very well. She could be a premier solo character just from the great stories that could be told.

To add the fact that she also has a dislike for Rogue(who I thought was up there in popularity too) it adds the story poltenial.

Her orgin and the basics of her character as very appealing to people.

Simple got powers from Aliens- orgin
Career Miltary
gains sympathy for being a recovering alcoholic
Has and should get the name Ms Marvel back.
Not attact to hip of any man.(no male overshadowing her)

This all make her a realistic strong woman with easy to understand powers that has a great name. Who could be a role model hero for woman.

[pureclint]

I disagree about the costumes. It's very relevant. Wasp will probably never, ever be an icon, becaue the net effect visual of 40+ years of constant costume (and artist) changes is that Wasp is a physically fit woman with short brown hair. That doesn't exactly make her stand out, now does it?

Carol Danvers is basically an attractive woman with long, blonde hair... except when she was a red-skinned freak with a crackling energy field instead of hair. And what color is her costume? Red (original), white (freaky phase), or black (mid-career and current versions)? Generally people have a specific visual in mind when they picture an icon like Wonder Woman or Batman or Hulk, not a collage of costumes and skin and hair colors.

This is why Tide has been sold in orange packaging for decades, why Coke keeps selling in red packaging with a white wavy line, why Nikes have swoosh on the side, etc. It's about building a product that can be quickly and easily recognized by the consumer. And it's why Superman Red and Blue went away quickly and Spider-man put back on his classic costume.


While I agree it is important to the brand and everything you say is true it is irrelavant to this discussion because we are talking about a "future Icon".

If she gets one look that works and is iconic and sticks with it then her past looks do not matter.

[BlackKnight]

LOL!!!
Hey, we both have a reputation to maintain around here, you know!
We really have to stop agreeing with each other so much... :D ;)

This December, all the secrets of Jessica Drew's past are finally revealed!
http://www.tomburgos.com/ORIGINSWbanner.jpg

Well I am sure we will fine something to disagree about soon enough :)

[Zel]

I consider an icon a character that someone who doesn't read comics will immediately recognize by sight or name.

Any marvel superheroine could be made an icon, if she gets a successful TV show or series of successful movies. That's the only way any comic book character will get recognition with the masses.

[AllisterH]

There is no way that Spider-woman can become an icon. Remember, there is a difference between ICON and popular. Captain America is popular, however, Spiderman is an ICON.

1) An icon is independent of an existing character. Its why Robin (way more famous than Spider-woman) can never be an icon. When I say Wonder woman to the general populace, people think Linda Carter. They think star-spangled panties etc.

To many people on the street, a spider-woman character will ALWAYS be a derivative of Spider-man (same reason why She-Hulk can become popular).

2) Not easy to encapsulate her origin. Quick: What is Jessica's origin storyline. All of the icons have a basic origin while Jessica's origin is too tied tightly to the marvel universe itself.

3) Exposure. Since Bendis joined marvel, exactly how many Jessica Drew appearances have there been? Part of New Avengers, (8 issues), a couple of guest appearances in Daredevil & Alias, small part in House of M and in total, we probably have less than 3 years exposure.

Before that, she was in comic book limbo. More importantly, Jessica is a fav of only 1 writer. How long Bendis is at marvel will decide ultimately Jessica's fate. (This is a problem marvel does have in general. Monica Rambeau had a good tenure as an Avenger but after Stern left, she got shuffled off to limbo).

And that's only in comic book circles. Until Spiderwoman starts showing up in videogames, movies and cartoons, there is no chance of her becoming an icon.

Hell, the Juggernaut is probably better known than Jessica and that's just do to being in games and cartoons (if Cain is in X-3, I'm betting marvel head office will make Cain a villain once more in the comic).

4) Influence. What I mean by this is that an Icon should spawn a family of either characters or books.

Spidey holds down 3-4 books at a time and there is always 2-3 books which fall under the Spider-man label. Batman has a whole gaggle of characters and books as does Superman.
WW is the exception but even she has Troia and Wondergirl (two characters that appear regularly in DC books)

I just can't see Spiderwoman ever spawning a family of characters like Spidey/WW.

My vote for Marvel female Icon? Goes to Storm. Closest marvel has gotten. She has had the same basic outfit (except for her biker days) for about 4 decades.

She has appeared in ads, rides, cartoons, videogames, movies.

Nobody else at marvel has come close to being a female ICON.

[SleepWalker]

There is no way that Spider-woman can become an icon. Remember, there is a difference between ICON and popular. Captain America is popular, however, Spiderman is an ICON.

1) An icon is independent of an existing character. Its why Robin (way more famous than Spider-woman) can never be an icon. When I say Wonder woman to the general populace, people think Linda Carter. They think star-spangled panties etc.

To many people on the street, a spider-woman character will ALWAYS be a derivative of Spider-man (same reason why She-Hulk can become popular).

2) Not easy to encapsulate her origin. Quick: What is Jessica's origin storyline. All of the icons have a basic origin while Jessica's origin is too tied tightly to the marvel universe itself.

3) Exposure. Since Bendis joined marvel, exactly how many Jessica Drew appearances have there been? Part of New Avengers, (8 issues), a couple of guest appearances in Daredevil & Alias, small part in House of M and in total, we probably have less than 3 years exposure.

Before that, she was in comic book limbo. More importantly, Jessica is a fav of only 1 writer. How long Bendis is at marvel will decide ultimately Jessica's fate. (This is a problem marvel does have in general. Monica Rambeau had a good tenure as an Avenger but after Stern left, she got shuffled off to limbo).

And that's only in comic book circles. Until Spiderwoman starts showing up in videogames, movies and cartoons, there is no chance of her becoming an icon.

Hell, the Juggernaut is probably better known than Jessica and that's just do to being in games and cartoons (if Cain is in X-3, I'm betting marvel head office will make Cain a villain once more in the comic).

4) Influence. What I mean by this is that an Icon should spawn a family of either characters or books.

Spidey holds down 3-4 books at a time and there is always 2-3 books which fall under the Spider-man label. Batman has a whole gaggle of characters and books as does Superman.
WW is the exception but even she has Troia and Wondergirl (two characters that appear regularly in DC books)

I just can't see Spiderwoman ever spawning a family of characters like Spidey/WW.

My vote for Marvel female Icon? Goes to Storm. Closest marvel has gotten. She has had the same basic outfit (except for her biker days) for about 4 decades.

She has appeared in ads, rides, cartoons, videogames, movies.

Nobody else at marvel has come close to being a female ICON.

I agree with all of this, although I'd say that Cap, at least visually, is an icon.

With all this Spider-Woman spy-thriller talk, it got me thinking... don't we already have that in Black Widow??

[Shellhead]

There is no way that Spider-woman can become an icon. Remember, there is a difference between ICON and popular. Captain America is popular, however, Spiderman is an ICON.

1) An icon is independent of an existing character. Its why Robin (way more famous than Spider-woman) can never be an icon. When I say Wonder woman to the general populace, people think Linda Carter. They think star-spangled panties etc.

To many people on the street, a spider-woman character will ALWAYS be a derivative of Spider-man (same reason why She-Hulk can become popular).

2) Not easy to encapsulate her origin. Quick: What is Jessica's origin storyline. All of the icons have a basic origin while Jessica's origin is too tied tightly to the marvel universe itself.

3) Exposure. Since Bendis joined marvel, exactly how many Jessica Drew appearances have there been? Part of New Avengers, (8 issues), a couple of guest appearances in Daredevil & Alias, small part in House of M and in total, we probably have less than 3 years exposure.

Before that, she was in comic book limbo. More importantly, Jessica is a fav of only 1 writer. How long Bendis is at marvel will decide ultimately Jessica's fate. (This is a problem marvel does have in general. Monica Rambeau had a good tenure as an Avenger but after Stern left, she got shuffled off to limbo).

And that's only in comic book circles. Until Spiderwoman starts showing up in videogames, movies and cartoons, there is no chance of her becoming an icon.

Hell, the Juggernaut is probably better known than Jessica and that's just do to being in games and cartoons (if Cain is in X-3, I'm betting marvel head office will make Cain a villain once more in the comic).

4) Influence. What I mean by this is that an Icon should spawn a family of either characters or books.

Spidey holds down 3-4 books at a time and there is always 2-3 books which fall under the Spider-man label. Batman has a whole gaggle of characters and books as does Superman.
WW is the exception but even she has Troia and Wondergirl (two characters that appear regularly in DC books)

I just can't see Spiderwoman ever spawning a family of characters like Spidey/WW.

My vote for Marvel female Icon? Goes to Storm. Closest marvel has gotten. She has had the same basic outfit (except for her biker days) for about 4 decades.

She has appeared in ads, rides, cartoons, videogames, movies.

Nobody else at marvel has come close to being a female ICON.

I agree with most of your post, except that I want to note that Storm has only been around for 30 years, not 40. Btw, some bizarre trivia... Marvel's oldest active female character (in terms of real world appearances) is actually Hellcat. She first showed up as Patsy Walker in the pages of Millie the Model, way back in the 40's, before Spider-man, before the Fantastic Four, and before the Hulk.

http://toonopedia.com/patsy.htm

My girlfriend is a fan of Storm, even though she has never read an X-Men comic. She only knows Storm from the cartoons, the movies, and the games. The only comics that I could get her to read were the excellent Vertigo series, Y the Last Man.

[BlackKnight]

I agree with all of this, although I'd say that Cap, at least visually, is an icon.

With all this Spider-Woman spy-thriller talk, it got me thinking... don't we already have that in Black Widow??

why yes we do, and she is getting another mini soon. :D

[CoreyB]

I voted for Storm. She is easily the most recognizable of Marvel's female characters right now.

Firestar could've been big. There are still non-comic fans that remember her from the 80s cartoon. But alas... that ball was dropped.

Carol Danvers has potential, too. They should call her Captain Marvel and really put her front and center. The black costume with the sash and the lightning bolt, the straight-forward powers (flight, super-strength)... it's easy.

[Stony]

Well I am sure we will fine something to disagree about soon enough :)
Oh God I hope not, I don't think I could stand reading through 6-7 pages of you two back-and-forthing again

[Headhunter]

If done right, Emma Frost has the best chance. Between the attitude, powers and the really sexy costumes, all it'll take is one Angelina Jolie film to put her at the top.

[Ultraman Max]

Storm, provived she can establish an identity seperate of the x-men and perhaps inspire familial style characters.

Not only is she already fairly recognizable but she's one of the few characters on that list who seems to have the "don't screw them up" command that follows Icons around. Looking at that list there's alot of baggage with some of those characters that could be detrimental to them building a mass following; such as having a mind-controled romance with your other-dimensionally concieved son, or flipping out and trying to wipe out your pals before remaking the world. ;)

[AllisterH]

Firestar could've been big. There are still non-comic fans that remember her from the 80s cartoon. But alas... that ball was dropped.

.

This I so agree with. In an era when people only had 3 stations to look at, having Firestar being a prominent member of one of the 80s biggest cartoon successes, you would figure she would have become huge.

I don't understand why marvel didn't force the issue by having Angelica join either the New Mutants or the X-men....

She gets a mini (and that's it) and is mothballed until Fabian pulls her out of retirement for New Warriors.

What the hell was marvel's marketing thinking? You better belive by Aunt Petunia's favourite nephew that would never happen nowaday in the more media-savy Marvel.

[Shellhead]

... Firestar being a prominent member of one of the 80s biggest cartoon successes, you would figure she would have become huge.


I liked Marvel a lot back then, but that cartoon was unbelievably bad. Even compared to other cartoons back then, the animation was stiff and awkward. The stories were lame and contrived. The villains were laughable but not actually funny. Spider-man had some okay one-liners, but they never rose above the level of corny puns. The reason that cartoon failed to catapult Firestar to great fame and success is that it was a really bad cartoon.

[Nick Kal]

First off, people expect that Spider-Woman will not be an Icon at this point because she's been back for about 3 months. She's never been built up, but she is being now. Give her time, you never know... She can't appear in a comic one month and automatically be as famus as Wolverine, have her own cereal and be recogniozed as an Icon.. it takes time.

Anyways, did anyone ever think to mention that Wonder Woman also had several people in her position. Hippolyta... Earth 2, etc. Spider-Woman isn't the only one who's had several people with the same name...

so what that she is associated with a team, so is captain america. the A on his head might as well stand for avengers, and guess what, hes extremely iconic.

what movies has spiderwoman been in?..........oh yeah.

No, Captain America is not an extension of the Avengers. He is widely recognized as his own hero. People think Storm, they think X-Men.

Wait.. Storm has been in comics as part of X-Men for how long now? Spider-Woman has been under utilized and brougth back for like 4 months... oh yeah.

[BlackKnight]

Oh God I hope not, I don't think I could stand reading through 6-7 pages of you two back-and-forthing again

I was joking. :D
Personally I don't know if I can stand it either.

[RocketBoy]

I don't know if Storm has the stuff to become iconic, but out of everyone on this list, that's who I chose. I cannot personally think of a Marvel female that has better a shot in the long run.

Becoming an Icon seems to have more to do with basic character concept than how well the chararacter is written at any point beyond that. Superman has remained the most iconic superhero since he was created despite the fact that he has suffered horrible writing throughout most of his 67 year career. The non-comic fans find it easy to ebrace his basic concept. Yet, when confronted with Supergirl, who essentially has the same basic concept, there is not much love from the non-fans. Which i guess means that they will only buy the same concept once, as the same thing happened to Batgirl.

[Cloak]

It's Storm.

She certainly has the most potential, and she definitely has the exposure(she's Marvel's token female when it comes to 'all star' groupings). What she needs now is a good ongoing series (and a few adjustments to her costume, like some kind of symbol, but that's just nitpicking).

The problem with Spider-Woman is that she'll forever be tied to Spider-Man. Her entire concept is not original enough for her to be seen as an independent character. Carol Danvers would be a good choice is they'd turn her into Captin Marvel, yet it might be too late for Carol.

[metr0man]

Storm i think is the most easily recognizable to the public at large, regardless of "how many books she's in", thanks to the popularity of the X-Men (its popular movies, with a popular actress, its mega popular 90s cartoon, and of course popular in its own insular way xmen comics), and a unique look (african american with pure white hair, rather simple but cool design).

Of course its funny because I find Storm to be one of the most boring cbaracters ever, and would claw my eyes out when having to read through a storm-centered comic or cartoon episode, *laughs*

[JoJangles the Lizard Monster]

I chose Storm out of all of the others, and I think she probably is one of the most recognizable female icons of marvel. But I think the Invisible Woman would probably be just as iconic as storm is too. She's been around a lot longer than any of the other women, and the fantastic four is probably just as recognizable a team as the x-men are.

[o1pickleboy]

With the movie just coming out yeah Invisible Woman probably would get recongized., but it would be hard to seperate her from the FF. That alone would make it very hard for her to become a icon.

[jwmojo]

Right, because TV's ALIAS invented the female-spy genre, right? ;)


I am sorry, I really apologize...I forgot that you know more about the upcoming, not even -released Spider-Woman book than the actual writer of the book.
So even though Bendis, the WRITER of the book, has publicly stated , (in A PUBLIC FORUM I have to emphasize)that the book will be a spy thriller, and not a crime noir like his Daredevil, you still think it will be crime noir....
Ok.
:)

This is just my opinion, but I'd be very surprised if "spy thriller" and "crime noir" don't equate to the same thing in this case. Not that the stories will be the same, they won't. Rather, the feel of the books will likely be the same. Unless he gives Spider-Woman a goofy James Bond feel, spy and detective stories use a lot of the same plot devices and in-the-shadows scenes.

[jwmojo]

I liked Marvel a lot back then, but that cartoon was unbelievably bad. Even compared to other cartoons back then, the animation was stiff and awkward. The stories were lame and contrived. The villains were laughable but not actually funny. Spider-man had some okay one-liners, but they never rose above the level of corny puns. The reason that cartoon failed to catapult Firestar to great fame and success is that it was a really bad cartoon.

I agree that the show was pretty horrible, but I still loved the character of Firestar. That ball definitely got dropped.

[tricksterpup]

Dazzler
http://www.nybugle.com/Images/dazzler.jpg

[BlackKnight]

This is just my opinion, but I'd be very surprised if "spy thriller" and "crime noir" don't equate to the same thing in this case. Not that the stories will be the same, they won't. Rather, the feel of the books will likely be the same. Unless he gives Spider-Woman a goofy James Bond feel, spy and detective stories use a lot of the same plot devices and in-the-shadows scenes.

Thank you, that is what I was trying to say all along... :D
Some people just don't want to listen.

[anthony!]

Frankly I think the natural pick is Warbird/Ms. Marvel.

The more famous females are either a.) derivative of their male counter parts (Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Spider-Girl, etc.) or b.) they're on the X-Men (Phoenix, Storm, Rogue, etc.)

Elektra could be a candidate, but she's not a character that really thrives on being a major figure in and out of the MU. She's never really set the sales charts on fire.

Warbird/Ms. Marvel however does seem to have a small but consistent fan following that likes to see her get the occassional spotlight. I think she's also the natural answer to DC's Wonder Woman, complete with failings and faults to counter WW's perfectness. I just think she has a lot of potential that isn't taken advantage of. Plus she has a great costume and an interesting history both as Ms. Marvel, Binary and Warbird.

It all depends on what you consider icon. Marvel's sales icons don't match their universe's icons.

In terms of sales/recognition: Its hands down Wolverine, Spider-man and Hulk

In terms of the MU: its Captain America, Iron Man and Reed Richards/FF (possibly Thor, but I don't see it)

If Cap is like Superman, Iron Man is a lot like Batman... Warbird is a descent answer to Wonder Woman. (Though admittedly Wonder Woman is also a decent match with Thor, just as Sentry is becoming an interesting twist on Superman).

So there you go— my vote is for Warbird.

[Atom_basher]

while i agree that carol danvers could be an icon with a push, but biggest chance? i dont see it.

[ghostrider666]

My fave would be Spider-Woman. Always liked her, even her old series from the 70's. I'm also a big fan of Warbird. That said, I dont know if either could be Marvel's female icon. I'll go with She-Hulk. Powerful hero & alter ego, could be great if written properly.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Jessica has the lead, with Ororo not too far behind.

[Atom_basher]

Jessica has the lead, with Ororo not too far behind.


which shows the fame and potential storm really has, being that she isnt having a huge push currently

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Ah come on...this is easy, folks. Who beat Wonder Woman in "DC vs Marvel" by fan votes? Ororo Monroe aka Storm. Make the right choice, kids.

[tricksterpup]

I tell you its Dazzler.. :D
http://www.maxithecat.de/UHBMCC/BILDER/GMXMARCHIV3HEFT130.JPG

who else looks that hot with a disco ball around thier necks and roller skates?

[LordAllMighty]

which shows the fame and potential storm really has, being that she isnt having a huge push currently

Could also mean not a lot of people are voting on this post ;). Think about it, 1600+ viewers and no where near that many replies.

AAMOF, I'm willing to bet that Strom's fan base is greater then any other woman in Marvel comics. IMHO, her only competition would come from Jean Grey, Invisible Woman and maybe She-Hulk.

[Shellhead]

AAMOF, I'm willing to bet that Strom's fan base is greater then any other woman in Marvel comics. IMHO, her only competition would come from Jean Grey, Invisible Woman and maybe She-Hulk.

I just can't see Invisible Woman as an icon. ;)

[o1pickleboy]

After looking over the poll and seeing the Scarlet Witch at no votes. Just tells me how much Bendis screw up the witch. After 40 plus years and most of them being active in a comic. I would think she would have got at least one vote.

[Mark Spiridakis]

I will go with Warbird although they would have to change her name back to Ms. Marvel. She-Hulk is good too.

[loc_zsu]

nah man i think it should be rouge. she kicks but!!!! although i have a question. rite she looses her powers yet sum how gets em bak again did i miss sumink or wot?

[Titan76]

I like Jean better. Much more stories I think you could do with her. She has imo a much more interesting history then the others and I think Marvel could a lot more with her then they could with the others.

[Shellhead]

Icons are not created by buttkicking or being "liked".

From encarta:

"icon

i·con (plural i·cons)

noun
Definitions:

1. image of holy person: a holy picture, carving, or statue of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, or a saint, especially an oil painting on a wooden panel, of a type revered in the Eastern Orthodox churches

2. somebody famous for something: somebody or something widely and uncritically admired, especially somebody or something symbolizing a movement or field of activity
the all-time rock'n'roll icon

3. picture on computer screen: a small image on a computer screen that represents something such as a program or device, that is activated by a mouse click
Open the program by clicking on its icon.

4. recognizable symbol: a picture or symbol that is universally recognized to be representative of something

5. sign: a word or sign that stands for something else, e.g. the Roman numeral "II" representing the number two"

Obviously, we are talking about definition #2 here, although #4 can play into it as well, if a given heroine is associated with a specific symbol that is comparable to Superman's S or Batman's bat on his chest. An icon is going to transcend mere comic fandom and being recognized by the general public.

Jean Grey, formerly and variously known as Marvel Girl, Phoenix, and Dark Phoenix, in a variety of costumes, is not an icon. While Rogue has avoided all the name changes, she's had too many costumes, so her most recognizable quality is that skunk streak in her hair.

[Titan76]

Jean Grey, formerly and variously known as Marvel Girl, Phoenix, and Dark Phoenix, in a variety of costumes, is not an icon. While Rogue has avoided all the name changes, she's had too many costumes, so her most recognizable quality is that skunk streak in her hair.
I just said I wouldn't mind seeing her as one. And as for people being Icons look Superman, Batman, Spiderman are the only comic Icons imo because they are the only ones outside the U.S. that people on the street would know right off the bat who never read the comic book. As for the all those reasons you gave for what an icon has to be I think is b.s. Spider-man doesn't have a letter on his chest, or a hloy image like Jesus Christ :rolleyes: and as far as remember for something that they did what the hell is Spider-man remember for? That in high school he became Spider man? Most people don't even know that. In order for a comic book character to become an icon male or female they need to have a solo book, it has to run for a long time like Superman or at least Spiderman, they need to have a TV show like Superman and Batman have had and I think Spider-man had one too and they need to have big-office movies just like all three have had. These 3 guys didn't become icons just because of the comic book. They became icons because of the T.V. and movie screen. The comic book is just the starting point which means any character can become one it just depends on who is writing them, like say Bendis or Johns, and how long their comic lasted and how popular it becomes. Phoenix, Spider-woman, Storm could be one of these people.

[Deus ex Chris]

Frankly I think the natural pick is Warbird/Ms. Marvel.

The more famous females are either a.) derivative of their male counter parts (Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Spider-Girl, etc.) or b.) they're on the X-Men (Phoenix, Storm, Rogue, etc.)
FYI, Carol's a derivative too. Fabulous but derivative.

Anyway, I voted for Storm for all the reasons that have been listed. She's as close to a "Wonder Woman" as Marvel has gotten, and they should really utilize her. It's been said that Storm will be a key player in 2006, so I guess we'll see what happens.

[TimmyTony]

Spider-Woman.

[Smarty Jones]

"What like her two issues in Alias, or her being an Avenger, which was hardly his idea alone. (She's total Avenger material, as a B-lister without a solo) or SHOCK! in her own title?"

It's not exactly a secret that Brian Michael Bendis wanted Jessica Drew to be the star of "Alias," before creating the vaguely similar Jessica Jones.

It's pretty obvious that Bendis has blinders for several characters (Luke Cage, Wolverine and Spider-Man), and Spider-Woman is one of them. She pretty much is his central character in a team book (The Avengers, no less) featuring Captain America and Iron Man, and apparently will have a miniseries done by Bendis.

Any way, I agree with Shellhead that all Spider-Woman's noteriety is tied to fan favorite Bendis. There wasn't exactly this huge grassroots support for her for the previous 20 years until Bendis brought her out of mothballs.

Of all the Marvel females listed, Storm has the best shot. She's one of the more powerful female superheroes (and even higher among the black heroes), she's been arguably the longest tenured X-Man as well as a long-time leader. Storm has all the rare qualities of being an iconic character, especially among black readers.

What's going to keep Storm from that is ironically some of the things that have helped her in the past -- namely, being stuck in the X-Men's ghetto. She really has had no character development in the past 20 years, as various writers have latched on to other personal favorites. When writers have done something with her in any manner, it's usually with an approach that is offsetting to black readers (a potential core group that can elevate her standing even more).

[marvelboi77]

Well lets look at something for 20 years nobody wrote her, why (who knows). Bendis writes good crime nior, it sounds like this will be at least sort of in that vain. Lets also look at how much Hype Bendis gets and how much hype he gives SW. Do I think sales will drop when Bendis stops writing the book, yes, why because fans of Bendis will read it and when he stops writing it they will leave. Nothing to do with the charater.
Spider-Woman was not absent in the last 20 years from Marvel I wish you would stop using that as part of your argument. 1996 Spider-Woman got her own action figure in the Spiderman line, although it was a repainted Spider-Woman 2 figure from Ironman but then so was Invisible Woman. Spider-Woman was in a few issues of Wolverine #2 and one later that I know of for sure. She was in 2 issues of Alias which proves your Bendis point Not..... She was in Spider-Woman volume 3 which featured Mattie Franklin and she was in the book all 17 issues. Issue #1 was also the #20 highest ordered book that month. She was in Peter Parker and the Spectacular Spiderman issue 5, and 6. She was in Secret Defenders #18. So she had a small role in the Marvel Universe she was not gone.

As for why people were not crying for her. Lets see she has always been my favorite character. I only joined this message board in the last year. Spider-Woman may never be an X-Men but the fact that she is getting so much exposure now means she will never be put in the closet again. Everytime George Perez Draws a Poster celebrating an Avengers Anniversary she will be put on it everytime. She now and forever will be an Avenger.

[Smarty Jones]

Marvelboi, Jessica Drew was not Spider-Woman for a 20-year span. Yes, she's appeared in some books such as "Wolverine" and "Heroes for Hire" -- but as JESSICA DREW, former failed superheroine. That angle even was played up in a self-depreciating manner.

You named a handful of appearances from the mid-1980s until "New Avengers 1." That comes up to about one per year -- and that ratio was that high because of her appearances in the Mattie Franklin Spider-Woman books. Does that sound like a lot for a supposed major character?

[tricksterpup]

If I had my way, Dakota North would be an Icon.

http://www.thecomicshop.com.au/covers/comics/d/dakotanorth-03-marvel-good.jpg

[piloted]

I vote for Other - the Invisible Woman. It's bizarre to me that she's not even on the poll. She is the first lady of Marvel.

[Paradox]

I'm voting for She-Hulk. Even if people haven't heard of her, the name alone is going to give some kind of indication what she is, and the juxtaposition of her still having brains as opposed to most people's view of her cousin gives her a nice difference.

Yeah, Storm's probably got the best shot at the moment, but a She-Hulk movie would change all that in a heartbeat.

[Cloak]

I think it's quite foolish to suggest that characters that are more or less token female counterparts of existing male heroes (such as She-Hulk, Spider-Woman etc) could the female icon(s) of Marvel. They are excellent characters, I'm not doubting that, but they simply don't qualify(whereas I'd suggest Storm is much more qualified). Besides, Bendis' obsession with the flavour of the month Spider-Woman I is getting annoying. Stop ramming her down our throats, Brian!

. When writers have done something with her in any manner, it's usually with an approach that is offsetting to black readers.

hmm, explain.

[marvelboi77]

Marvelboi, Jessica Drew was not Spider-Woman for a 20-year span. Yes, she's appeared in some books such as "Wolverine" and "Heroes for Hire" -- but as JESSICA DREW, former failed superheroine. That angle even was played up in a self-depreciating manner.

You named a handful of appearances from the mid-1980s until "New Avengers 1." That comes up to about one per year -- and that ratio was that high because of her appearances in the Mattie Franklin Spider-Woman books. Does that sound like a lot for a supposed major character?
Regardless if she was calling her self Spider-Woman she was still around, it's the same character. I agree that's it's not alot of appearances but she was far from absent. Also what's wrong with a character getting new life by being put into the hottest book being sold right now. If it was not for Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, and Colossus then Magneto, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, and Angel would not be crap now. So those were good characters that no one cared about until popular characters surrounded them and they were exposed to an audience that embraced them because of the association to ones that they liked. So in essence Spider-Woman who in my opinion is a great character and has alot of potential is getting alot of exposure. So she is around Captain America, Wolverine, Spiderman, and Ironman if that makes her popular well good it worked for the X-men who could of had the same fate as her 20 year break but were saved from that.

[o1pickleboy]

FYI, Carol's a derivative too. Fabulous but derivative.

Anyway, I voted for Storm for all the reasons that have been listed. She's as close to a "Wonder Woman" as Marvel has gotten, and they should really utilize her. It's been said that Storm will be a key player in 2006, so I guess we'll see what happens.


I wonder if that means Storm will be getting her own series?

[Mr. Nobody]

I can't see really see any of these characters quite reaching anything like a Wonder Woman type icon status, and if you look at it how many characters male or female are ever going to. Wonder Woman had the advantage of being there first. Between Wonder Woman's debut and now the worlds a bit different not as many new things are going to make as big an impression culturally because theirs just so much crap out there movies, music, games, we have to distract ourselves with, most of it only passes by before being forgotten forever. Not that it doesn't happen but outside of Wolverine, there's not a single superhero created in the last thirty years, that probably more than one out of ten average people could identify.

She-Hulk, Spider-Woman - while i think these characters are pretty distinctive personality wise, they're still going have to get by an impression of being cheaply produced gender knock-offs.

Warbird - Not that much has been done with the character. Biggiest claim to fame is that Rogue stole her powers. Has a tendacy to dissappear for years, a lot of Avengers fans probably don't even know who she is.

Elecktra - character hasn't played nearly as well since her big comeback from being dead, any hope she had for reaching icon status has been set back years by her recent movie.

Jean Grey - A lot of important storylines have revolved around her, but of all the core X-Men she's the least iconic. Next to Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus and Cyclops, does she really stand out? Her powers aren't as interesting as the others, she doesn't have a decent code name, her costumes have usually just been whatever standard issue uniform with a big X on it professor X is handing out at the time.

Storm - She has a lot going for her in this regard. She's a powerful, distinctive character, and has typically run things when Cyclops isn't around. She's also as far as i know, the first major black female super hero.

A major obsticle with most of the characters listed is they're team members. They're defined a lot, by their relationships to their team members, and in some cases like with Wasp or the Invisible Woman seem to get over shadowed by their male counter parts alot. The Fantastic Four is sort of iconic when looked at as a team but would you really go as far as to say the same thing for Mr. Fantastic or the Invisible Woman by themselves. While i don't mean by this that their bad or weak characters, for the most part they probably work better as part of a team than on their own. I don't think a Storm or Roque series would last, but its for the same reason i don't think a Colossus or Nightcrawler series would make it.

[Nobbel]

1-Storm
2-Rogue
3-Warbird(Carol Danvers)
4-She- Hulk
5-Jean Grey
6-Electra
7-Spider-Woman
8-Scarlet Witch
9-Wasp
10-Blackcat

[Sandy Hausler]

1-Storm
2-Rogue
3-Warbird(Carol Danvers)
4-She- Hulk
5-Jean Grey
6-Electra
7-Spider-Woman
8-Scarlet Witch
9-Wasp
10-Blackcat

Why is that all althogh the question calls for a single name, there will always be a person who insists on giving a list?<g>

No offense intended, by the way.

Sandy Hausler

[bosshog7169]

that bullemic fat chick from the GLA. She is a great role model for little girls.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

How can it not be Storm? She BEAT Wonder Woman in a popualrity contest during DC vs Marvel! Good gracious....it's a wrap. All hail the Queen! :D

[Blackcat]

STORM of course, no doubt about it.....!

[Erebus]

In the Woman's Rumblers Survivor, it seems that Wonder Woman is about to win. To me, thats not very surprising, since Wonder Woman is probably the most famous female super heroine, and DC's flagship female charcer. But who's Marvels? Do they have any female charecters that they would consider to be their primary female charecter?

[Gaz]

Storm, probably. Although Jean Grey, Emma Frost, Spider-Woman, She-Hulk and Ms Marvel all have arguments for.

[BigJayStudd]

I'd say Storm right now. She has the most mainstream popularity with the X-men cartoons and the recent movies.

[SalazarSleaze2]

Sad that Marvel really has no female character that even non-comic fans can immediately identify as a solo star.

I guess that Sue Storm, Scarlet Witch, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman and Ororo are all Marvel's preeminent women...

[BigJayStudd]

Storm, probably. Although Jean Grey, Emma Frost, Spider-Woman, She-Hulk and Ms Marvel all have arguments for.

I'd say Spider-Woman in a few years. She's fast becoming one of the more popular females. On top of that her name is marketable with "Spider-Man" being so popular.

[Sandy Hausler]

Storm, probably. Although Jean Grey, Emma Frost, Spider-Woman, She-Hulk and Ms Marvel all have arguments for.

I guess you left Sue Richards out because the movie was so bad.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[agrich]

Probably Invisible Woman. Storm and Jean Grey are the only other reasonable candidates.

[dingo]

Probably Invisible Woman. Storm and Jean Grey are the only other reasonable candidates.

Storm stands out there as not being romantically linked to someone equally or more famous than herself (I assume Storm is more famous than the Black Panther).

[kalorama]

Depends on what the criteria are. If it's noncomics reader recognition, they don't really have one. If it's status within the Marvel universe, it's Sue Richards in a walk.

[mattbib]

Marvel is clearly positioning itself to, possibly for the first time in its history, have legitimate female icons.

With the two Storm series, plus the apparent pairing of her with Black Panther raises her a level or two. Halle Barry's on-screen portrayal of her, regardless of acting or dialogue quality, also helps.

The concentration on Spider-Woman returns a major player of the '70s to the forefront.

She-Hulk's current well-received title has continued her status as a fan-favorite.

And Warbird's reversion to Ms. Marvel is a smart move because it recaptures the company name, immediately propelling her up the ladder of importance.

Now the big question is which of these is most recognizable outside of fandom. I think the answer right now is clearly Storm. But with the right continued support any of these could grow in pop-culture status. Maybe not to the degree that Wonder Woman has (she's got how many decades on these ladies?), but still to a respectable level.

[agrich]

Storm stands out there as not being romantically linked to someone equally or more famous than herself (I assume Storm is more famous than the Black Panther).

True Sue's romantic status is part of the reason for her notoriety, but the question isn't one of why. I mean, that shouldn't count against her. Storm wouldn't even be part of the discussion but for the X-Men movie.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Probably Invisible Woman. Storm and Jean Grey are the only other reasonable candidates.Agreed. Scarlet Witch and She-hulk do not belong on the list, sorry Salazar. They simply don't have any pop-culture recognition that compares with these three. I would also point out that in terms of pop-culture, while many might know that Wonder Woman 'hangs out' with Superman and Batman, many people would be hard-pressed to tell you if she is a D.C. or Marvel character.

[The Shadow]

Sad that Marvel really has no female character that even non-comic fans can immediately identify as a solo star.
I agree... they don't have one... Storm is about the closest.

[Chiasm]

You guys are leaving out the one obvious character. She is clearly the most famous of any Marvel female and as such is Marvel's flagship female - albeit a non superhero - yet I'll bet you that amongst non comic fans she is cleary the most famous. None other than Mary Jane Parker.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Storm stands out there as not being romantically linked to someone equally or more famous than herself (I assume Storm is more famous than the Black Panther).

I would say so, at least if we go by so-called mainstream regognizability (thanks to the X-men films and the various cartoons)

As for Spider-Woman...if Bendis and Maleev keep doing her book for a long time, and if Marvel keeps supporting the character like they have been doing this past year, she might have a chance at long-term success and "flagship" status...
But then again, Marvel needs to do that with several of their females...Storm for example: As much as I think she is recognized, Ororo could've easily become Marvel's true Female Icon, if only she had been pimped by Marvel the way they pimp their team books or some of their solo stars...
Pulsar also has tons pf potential, and Ms.Marvel/Warbird has a shot...it depends how her new book does...

[XPac]

Short answer is that it doesn't have one.

But of the choices we have... probably Storm, Invisible Woman, or MAYBE Electra.

Though I'm wondering if Marvel isn't going to TRY and make Ms. Marvel their flagship character, given her potrayal in House of M.

[ednemo]

Well, with the 3rd X-Men movie focusing on Storm as well her impending nuptials. Storm may be the Marvel postergirl for 2006. We could always give her mutonchops and claws and watch her grace the cover of hundreds of comics. Oh wait, we already have X-23 for that.

[kcekada]

Simple answer:

Marvel does not have a female flagship character.


Yes, they have plenty of female charactes, some of whom have had their own series -- a few of which lasted for serveral years.

Spider-Woman even had an animated series for one season.

The X-Men females aren't really flagship characters as they are very tightly bound to the X-Men mythos.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Agreed. Scarlet Witch and She-hulk do not belong on the list, sorry Salazar. They simply don't have any pop-culture recognition that compares with these three. I would also point out that in terms of pop-culture, while many might know that Wonder Woman 'hangs out' with Superman and Batman, many people would be hard-pressed to tell you if she is a D.C. or Marvel character.

Interesting.
Like Mattbib said, Carol retaking the Ms Marvel moniker was a smart move on Marvel's part, at least regarding the marketing possibilities of the name...it definitely creates an instant association between the character and the company.

[agrich]

Plus "Warbird" and "Binary" were both kind of stupid. Not that "Ms. Marvel" is brilliance or anything, but at least it's classic.

[sherlockbones]

Storm wouldn't even be part of the discussion but for the X-Men movie.


Sorry, but this is just a very bad argument, if it wasn´t for...
What else would you suggest then to be a valid argument?

What ever your opinion is on the movie, it is how public perceives the X-Soap.

Elektra might be a well known outside the comics aswell.

Anyway, I think it´s a tie between Sue and ´Ro

[kalorama]

Plus "Warbird" and "Binary" were both kind of stupid. Not that "Ms. Marvel" is brilliance or anything, but at least it's classic.

Have to disagree. I think both the name and the costume are outdated relics and really don't reflect the personalty of Carol Danvers as she's been generally portrayed over the years.

[sherlockbones]

Short answer is that it doesn't have one.
or MAYBE Electra.


was a little late, as it seems

[jpk]

In order:

1. Storm
2. Sue Richards
3. She-Hulk
4. Elektra
5. Black Widow
6. Spider-Woman
7. Jean (she's so far down because she's dead in the books, but she shoots to No. 1A after the third X movie.

Good call on MJ, by the way - everyone knows her from SM 1 & 2, but she's not a super-powered character so I left her out.

[agrich]

Sorry, but this is just a very bad argument, if it wasn´t for...
What else would you suggest then to be a valid argument?

What ever your opinion is on the movie, it is how public perceives the X-Soap.

Elektra might be a well known outside the comics aswell.

Anyway, I think it´s a tie between Sue and ´Ro

The point was in the response to the person who wanted to give Ororo the edge over Sue because of Sue's romantic link to the Fantastic Four, which is no more valid a reason to discount her as a flagship character. I didn't say Storm's presence in the discussion because of the movies was "invalid," just that that's why she's there (not her miniseries or pending marriage to Black Panther).

I'm a little unsure why people are ranking She-Hulk so high just because she has a popular series right now. Definitely not a true flagship candidate at this point.

As for the Ms. Marvel costume and concept being "outdated" compared to how she's been portrayed in recent years....I don't think she's been popular enough over that period for anyone to care. Probably more people read New Avengers right now than any of her collective appearances as Binary or Warbird. And (for what it's worth) it's those original Ms. Marvel appearances that will start skyrocketing in value in the months to come. Not that that matters, but we're talking flagship characters, so what appearance she's more recognizable as is what counts.

[Jake V]

Are there really that many flagship female characters anyway? All I can think of is Wonder Woman, and that's mostly due to the fact that she was a golden age character meant to stand beside Superman and Batman from day one (or so). The rest of DC's more notable female characters (Batgirl, Black Canary, Supergirl, etc) aren't on any level higher than Marvel's more popular female characters.

I think if Stan and Jack had created a standalone female character at the same time as they created all the other classic Marvel characters in the 60's, she'd be on the same level in terms of being an icon as Wonder Woman.

As it stands right now, we've got lesser female characters like She-Hulk or Spider-Woman, and female characters that stand out in teams like Storm or Invisible Woman.

[kalorama]

As for the Ms. Marvel costume and concept being "outdated" compared to how she's been portrayed in recent years....I don't think she's been popular enough over that period for anyone to care. Probably more people read New Avengers right now than any of her collective appearances as Binary or Warbird. And (for what it's worth) it's those original Ms. Marvel appearances that will start skyrocketing in value in the months to come.

That may be true, but it really doesn't have any impact on my point.

[agrich]

For the record, my use of the word "classic" shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as "great." By classic I just meant, original/'70s.

[lament]

I'm not sure if Marvel has a character iconic enough to be a flagship character. If anyone, I would say Sue Richards. When I was a kid, the FF symbolized so much of the Marvel Universe for me.

Otherwise, perhaps Storm, just because her presence in the movies makes her recognizable.

[LordAllMighty]

The top ten

1) Storm
2) Invisible Woman
3) Phoenix
4) Rogue
5) Elektra
6) Spider-Woman
7) She-Hulk
8) Scarlet Witch
9) Ms. Marvel
10) Shadowcat or Wasp (I guess)

[Citizen V]

Actually..with DC Wonder Woman is THE heroine that all can agree on without a doubt.But with Marvel people have their own call on who is the main heroine,its sort of ironic really.But if there is any,i would have to say Sue Storm.The Invisible Woman,one of the oldest,and still one of the most powerful.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Speaking of comic book heroines in the mainstream media, anyone remembers this skit from Saturday Night Live? (besides Spider-Woman, there is Lois Lane-between Supes and Thing- and IIRC she is played by Margot Kidder)

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1094/saturdaynightlive17nw.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1379/saturdaynightlive29va.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9571/saturdaynightlive31lu.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5340/saturdaynightlivesw49vy.jpg

[Capt USA]

when I think of a flagship character, I thin of someone that isn't going to change in a couple of years out of that role. In Dc it doesn't matter if they have a super popular batgirl or catwoman, Wonder Woman will always be their flagship female character.

In marvel, to pick storm even over her own teamates like Rogue or Jean Grey is a stretch in my opinion. Sure her popularity in the mainstream is about the highest it has ever been and may eventually be higher after her movie called Storm/Wolverine:X3 comes out. But I don't think it will have that long lasting of an impact. First off Halle is hot, but the storm character has boring dialog, crappy acting, and no personality. I just can't see her sustaining the success.

I have to agree with the person that listed Mary Jane, other viable candidates is Sue Storm, beyond that, you have to stick within the comic book geekdom and point to Scarlett Witch, Wasp, She-hulk and to a lesser extent Spider-woman...once again, I don't see spiderwoman sustaining her popularity, a relatively borin character who whole value is based upon the way she is drawn.

[Satana Hellstrom]

Ms.Marvel or Storm should be the company's flagship heroine.
Spider-Woman is a strong contender, especially with Marvel's top writer behind her.
She is a great character that is experiencing a "resurrection" of sorts, and Marvel is giving her a great push.

[Gaz]

I guess you left Sue Richards out because the movie was so bad.<g>

Sandy Hausler
No, because I forgot. :p

[the_big_billbowski]

My thought is thier is no female icon's that Marvel has that is compariable in status to Wonder Woman. Thier is no women characters in Marvel who could be a "Big Three" in terms of recognition. Ms. Marvel could because of her powers and associatoin with the Marvel brand name. She-Hulk and Spiderwoman definely could be because of their association with Hulk and Spiderman, 2 of the Marvel "Big Three"

[Babylon23]

I agree that Marvel has no iconic female character equal to Wonder Woman, or even Supergirl. I don't think that's going to ever change. Much of Marvel's 60's women were defined by the teams they were and and the men they were seeing/married to. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, was allowed to develop her own identity on her own title.

Marvel have made a couple of attempts to rectify this, most notably in the 70's-early 80's with Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Dazzler and Spider-Woman. Unfortunately, those titles were cancelled, and most of the characters either disappeared into limbo or were absorbed into other teams. I think one of the big problems is that they designed female derivatives of existing male characters, even when the links were tenuous (such as the case with Spider-Man/Spider-Woman)

Of course, now they're trying again, and they're using the same group of characters that failed in the past. I'm not sure if this will work in the long run, but I hope it does.

Of course, it will help if the characters aren't presented as purely male titilation objects.

[TheBronzeMarvel]

JohnnyComeLately,here! I might as well echo all of your comments just to prove I can think (or regurgitate), too!

Storm? I don't see it. Too "X." Sue? Don't see it. Never been a solo figure.

Ms. Marvel? Yeah! Could be. But they would need to star her in an animated series and retcon the hell out of here there. Make her seem like a female Superman. A couple of seasons of that, and there could be a new generatio identifying her as a "flagship" character.

She-hulk? Sorry.

Waso? Glad someone finally mentioned her. She COULD be, because of her continued appearances for decades and because of her longevity (like Sue). But, like Sue, the Wasp is "married" to the Avengers. She's their anchor, but is she a flagship character? Nah.

Spider-Woman? YES! I think Marvel would be foolish to NOT push both Ms. Marvel and Spider-Woman into the mainstream consciousness in the next 3 to 5 years. Characters like Emma Frost and Elektra are always going to appeal to too small of an audience, I'm afraid. Elektra is a Daredevil character. Emma Frost is an "X" character. Ms. Marvel and Spider-Woman have transcended teams, solo-series cancellations, what have you, and are being brought back (probably not because Marvel thinks they are not popular enough,but because Marvel thinks there is a demand for these types of characters and these characters in particular).

So, as everyone has said, Marvel doesn't have a flagship femme now. But they are poised to have TWO of them soon. It really will be interesting to see if they can parlay these characters into household names.

(Sorry if there are typos. Keyboard sticking.)

[richjb77]

...I went outside my usually comicbook circle for this...And I mentioned many different Marvel females to many of my female coworkers ( I'm a elementary school teacher) they only knew about Mary Jane from the movies and Spiderwoman from the short lived cartoon show that they vaguly remembered

[Chiasm]

I'll bet that in a poll of non comic fans Lois Lane would trounce Wonder Woman if asked to name one DC female, superpowered or non powered. Because females in comics are meant to be accessories to male superheroes. Not saying that right but its reality. WW is the only major non accesory female hero there is. All the rest are defined by their male counterpart (Supergirl, SheHulk) or who they are dating.

[superhornet34]

i would have said her but Grant Morrison killed her. She was a great character, strong and a leader.

[Jake V]

i would have said her but Grant Morrison killed her. She was a great character, strong and a leader.
What are you talking about? She was still alive by the end of his run. She just went somewhere else.

[DDM]

Marvel does not have a female flagship character. Marvel tried to create several female flagship characters such as Ms. Marvel I, Spider-Woman I in the 70's, She-Hulk, & Dazzler in the 80's, but all of their series were eventually cancelled.

[Indigo Al]

I think it could easily be Storm, if Quesada et al "Wolverined" her just a little - gave her a solo title, got her away from the X-Men into her own situation/operation, or maybe a short stint in the Avengers...but if she's off to be Mrs. T'Challa, I don't see this happening.

[DDM]

I think it could easily be Storm, if Quesada et al "Wolverined" her just a little - gave her a solo title, got her away from the X-Men into her own situation/operation, or maybe a short stint in the Avengers...but if she's off to be Mrs. T'Challa, I don't see this happening.

Storm works better as part of a team.

[Indigo Al]

Storm works better as part of a team.

Solo title doesn't mean no supporting cast. She could open an X-Corp branch in Africa or Europe or something.

But I guess post-HoM this idea wouldn't hold

[steve2275]

carol or jess drew
untill storm marries tchalla

[Lawrence]

I know this is a bit off topic, but I'm surprised that people haven't mentioned Catwoman when they talk about the flagship DC females. I'm not even sure if she is a heroine but as a non-DC reader, Wonderwoman, Catwoman, Supergirl and Batgirl come straight to mind. However, when I was little, I wasn't even sure if Supergirl or Batgirl existed or whether people just lied and said they did..

Then I get reminded of Harley Quinn and Posion Ivy but they're not really mainstream.

[Harold of the Rocks]

You guys are leaving out the one obvious character. She is clearly the most famous of any Marvel female and as such is Marvel's flagship female - albeit a non superhero - yet I'll bet you that amongst non comic fans she is cleary the most famous. None other than Mary Jane Parker.Spot on. This is by far the best suggestion on this thread. Aunt May might even come in second. In terms of super-heroine? Sue Storm. Not even Ororo can touch her for mainstream recognizability. Halle Berry has everything to do with her 'rise' in the public eye, before the X-Movies? Not on the radar. I would argue people might be able to name Susan's full name and Superhero codename. Not the case with Storm. Sue's just been closer to pop-culture for far too long in comparison. Still, MJ tops all after reading this thread and reflecting on it...

[Titan76]

Spot on. This is by far the best suggestion on this thread. Aunt May might even come in second. In terms of super-heroine? Sue Storm. Not even Ororo can touch her for mainstream recognizability. Halle Berry has everything to do with her 'rise' in the public eye, before the X-Movies? Not on the radar. I would argue people might be able to name Susan's full name and Superhero codename. Not the case with Storm. Sue's just been closer to pop-culture for far too long in comparison. Still, MJ tops all after reading this thread and reflecting on it...
MJ is Marvel's Lois Lane. She is the wife of a hero and is a normal person and is hot. That's it. People know her because of who she is with, which is the same reason why they know Lois Lane. She is Superman's wife, nuff said. If Wonder Woman and Superman were married then no female character in all of comics would even come close to Wonder Woman in being recognize.

Sue Storm will never be Marvel's flagship female. The FF is what defines her. Her brother is a member and she is married to Reed who is their leader and they have two children together. She has more ties and more reasons not to leave her team then any other woman in comics. The FF is a family book and for Sue to leave it would be like breaking up the family. Which is why I don't see The Thing series lasting because even though he is popular its the FF that defines him and his character. People want to read these two in the FF book, not in a solo series.

Spider-Woman and She-Hulk will at best be in the same league as Supergirl because of their name. Even though Spider-Woman and Spider-man aren't related in anyways thats what most people will think of her when they see the name and when they find out Spider-man and her aren't related in any ways nor have the same powers, then there won't be much reason to check her out. These two can become very popular like Supergirl but won't be Marvel's flagship female who can have a solo for 60 years like Wonder Woman.

The best three at having a shot would be Storm, Phoenix, and Mrs. Marvel in that order.
First with Mrs. Marvel you have a good name and a stand out custome like Superman and Spider-man have and she has easy powers to understand. The only 2 problem with her would be her history and people knowing who she is. If Marvel could fine a way to explain her history really good or make people forget it then I say she would nearly be set. The only other thing that Mrs. Marvel lacks is that not too many people outside of comics know who she is. To know who Mrs. Marvel is you would more then likely need to know someone who reads or who has read comics. She has never had(to my knowledge) any mainstream media on her weather it be a cartoon or movie. Marvel has never really gave her a huge PR push, and she has been mostly a floater. She was with the Avengers, X-men, and I believe the Starjammers for a while to being back with the Avengers again and now off the Avengers again. If Marvel was to gave her a Wolverine PR push this could all change though.

Second would be Jean Grey, Phoenix. She has a nice/cool codename name, is really powerful, her green Phoenix custome is her stand out one so that would be more then likely be the one to use, and has can be used outside of the X-men now because of the way the X-men and Scott are being used. She is real popular and well known because of her time in the X-books, the movie, and she can use some of the X-characters as supporting cast members which would help because people now of days don't like new characters or don't have any interest in them. Not to mention during her time under Morrison she was shown to be able to stand on her own without Scott and be able to kick some major ass in battle. Her only problems would be her history and what way people remember her as or know her as. Do they know her as when she was Phoenix during the Phoenix saga, or during her time with X-Factor, or during her time with the X-men in the 90's, or in the cartoon, Morrison's run or the moive version. Too many versions when it comes to Jean and the whole Phoenix thing which goes into her history. There are still lots of question to be answer about when it comes to Jean being the Phoenix that Marvel tries their best not to come out and flat out answer. Pheonix dieing all the time in the past I don't think would be a problem because you would have to know comics real good to know all the times she has died. Hell, Superman died once and that is a thing in the past now, so I don't see this effecting Jean to much like people will try and say it will.

And last but not least, the more likely female to be Marvel's Wonder Woman would be Storm. She is a leader, is real powerful and has easy powers to understand, her look stands out more then any other female at Marvel. I mean how many other women are there at Marvel who are black with white hair? Has a easy history to understand and that can still be explored. Not to mention Storm is real popular because of her time with the X-men like Jean. She beat Wonder Woman in the Marvel vs DC fan voting(which one would think would have given Marvel a real big clue) and was real big during the X-men cartoon in the 90's and looks like her character will be getting the second most time in front of the camera behind Wolverine(mainly because of Berry) in the X-men movie. The only thing I see her lacking is that stand out custome that Phoenix and Mrs. Marvel have. But I don't see that being a problem unless Marvel's thinks the custome she has now is good and that she should stay in it because its ugly and needs to be change a.s.a.p. If Marvel could come up with the right outfit and if she doesn't marry the BP then I would say Storm is set and is only waiting for Marvel to give her the green light.

[Buddahbelly]

1) MJ
2) Aunt May
Their not heroines but the question was female character. Reguardlss of the fact that people only know them as Spidys family they are the most known. People care for them more than other female characters. Don't get me wrong, I like the other girls but for me MJ and Aunt May top the charts. If I had to pick a heroine I'd (at this point) have to go with Storm.

[lead sharp]

A friend and myself were discussing this the other day and we realised there were no iconic women in the Marvel universe.

By this I mean that while there are plenty of female characters and they've been written to various levels of quality from great to poor (in the same way the male characters have). Spider-Woman great, She Hulk cool, Miss Marvel/Warbird/Binery/whatever... well there's always Storm and Electra... ok strong but not Iconic in the same way Wonder Woman is.

Look at it this way, If you accept DC's icons as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, you could readily accept the Marvel equivalents being Captain America, Wolverine and ... fill in the blanks.

A strong indervidual female icon character, any ideas?

[CyberCoyote]

Yeah, the Marvel ladies haven't had the spotlight, but Wonder Woman has been around longer than most (any?) Marvel Comics and has been featured in TV shows for decades. A lot of exposure there.

Give Carol Danvers some time, she'll fill the void :) If not we can count Thor, he's got long pretty hair and knee high boots :cool:

[dingo]

Threads like this pop up quite regularly, so let me be the first to reply with the standard reply.

Most comic creators are male, therefore most comic creations are male.
Same holds true for race.

Unfortunate but true. Wonder Woman is a bit of an anomaly.

As for Marvel female, Storm comes closest.
But it is not for lack of trying lately. Spider-Girl, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman and Ms Marvel all are being pushed quite well.

[Karl J. Barnes]

I think that Sue Storm is pretty iconic. A arguement could be made that Jean Grey is an icon,too.

[JeffreyWKramer]

What you have to keep in mind is that there are essentially no truly "iconic" characters that have been around for less than 30 years. By "iconic", I'm talking about characters widely recognized beyond comic fandom, characters that have permeated the general consciousness, become pop-culture figures. One can argue that Wolverine and the Punisher have reached that level, but just barely; the last one before that was the Silver Surfer, and the last ones before that were Spidey and the Hulk. The FF as a group are kinda-sorta iconic, but the only one really recognizable on his own to the average non-comic fan is the Thing.

None of the Marvel female characters have iconic status largely because until fairly recently, history-wise, they have mostly been written as sidekicks and teammates more than dynamic characters in their own right. This is true of all DC's female characters, too, with one exception - Wonder Woman - who headlined her own book from her first appearance.

Then consider the possible contenders for "iconic" status among Marvel's female characters...
Dazzler - a disco spin-off. No go there.
She-Hulk - a spin-off from a male character.
Spider-Woman - a spin-off character in name, if not in history. Plus, she has an ugly costume.
Elektra - A spin-off from Daredevil, who is himself pretty much a non-entity in the larger pop culture.
Ms. Marvel - Another spin-off, from a very minor character. Plus, she's been reinvented/renamed repeatedly.... Binary, Warbird, etc. At this point, it's hard to describe her in less than four paragraphs, whereas truly iconic characters can usually be described in a simple catchphrase.
Phoenix - Some potential there, she certainly has the dynamic look, but her story is too mixed in with X-Men continuity, and she's famous mostly for turning bad and dying frequently.
Storm - No presence outside X-Men stuff, where she always plays a third-banana to Wolverine. Maybe if Halle Berry's performance in the X-movies wasn't so lackluster...

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think that Sue Storm is pretty iconic. A arguement could be made that Jean Grey is an icon,too.

Very few people outside comics fans would recognize either character if you showed them a drawing. Those who recognize Sue will more often than not say "she's one of the Fantastic Four", but not remember her name.

[The Shadow]

you could readily accept the Marvel equivalents being Captain America, Wolverine and ... fill in the blanks.
That Spidey guy I think would be well ahead of Wolverine.

Marvel has no real iconic women.

Storm, Jean Grey and Rogue would likely come the closest.

Here's a blog post on what I think the icons are... and where everyone else fits in. (http://gordsrandomthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/02/list-characters-b-listers-where-do.html)

Post some comments (here or there) and let me know if you agree/disagree!

[Gargus]

Personally I never cared.

I dont think any comic charcter is iconic in my eyes and personally dont care if they are.

The day I start worrying if a charcter is iconic or as some people put it, a role model then thats the day I stop reading comic books as I have taken them to seriously.

They are just comic books. I read them to enjoy a storyline and for fun. I dont try to inject rationality into them because that defeats the purpose of them. To me atleast.

[Tommy]

Wonder Woman is iconic due to the fact that she is 60-years-old. And she survived the initial cancellation of the DC Superhero line primarily due to her book being rather thinly veiled...

The main reason Wonder Woman is iconic is due to the Linda Carter Wonder Woman show and the Super Friends. Plus for many years DC couldn't cancel her series since if they did her ownership would revert to her creator's family.

Marvel's two most Iconic females are the Invisible Woman and Storm. However with a lot of push Ms. Marvel could be up there.

[The Shadow]

Very few people outside comics fans would recognize either character if you showed them a drawing. Those who recognize Sue will more often than not say "she's one of the Fantastic Four", but not remember her name.
Yep.

The ICONS are characters that ANY non-comic book fans (like your grandmother) have no problem recognizing.
Examples (and there are only four): Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Spiderman.
There are some up and coming icons... Wolverine, Hulk, and Robin the Boy Wonder.


A Characters
These are characters non-comic book fans would recognize but might have some trouble identifying. They can sustain a solo series.

Examples: Fantastic Four, Captain America, Catwoman, Daredevil, Lex Luthor, the Joker, Green Goblin, Supergirl.


B Characters
These are characters that roughly 90% of people buying comics would recognize. They might or might not be able to sustain a solo series.

Examples: Maritan Manhunter, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Flash, Punisher, Thor, Batgirl, Nightwing, Dr. Doom, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Captain Marvel (Shazam) and Iron Man

C Characters
These are characters that might be hard for the casual comic book fan to identify or are currently very popular. Some might be able to sustain a solo series (most have had one or even several).

Examples: Black Canary, the Atom, Elektra, Spider-Girl, Jean Grey, Spectre, Deadpool, Nick Fury, Sgt Rock, Namor, Venom, Emma Frost, Hawkeye, Cyclops, Ms Marvel, Storm, She-Hulk, Silver Surfer, Superboy, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider Woman, Moon Knight, Cable, Black Panther, Steel, Sub-Mariner.


D Characters
Decent characters that are primarily used as "extra's" in books (especially team books) and who cannot sustain a solo series.

Examples: Blue Beetle, Susnspot, Artemis, Deadman, Booster Gold, Warpath, Kitty Pride, Nightcrawler, Wasp, Hank Pym, Shanna, Wildcat, Hercules, Hourman, Quicksilver, Psylocke, Beast, Kid Flash, Diamondback, Cyborg, Beast Boy, Firestorm, Vision, Union Jack, Captain Britain, Plastic Man, Elongated Man.


E Characters
These are the bottom of the barrel. Used as cannon fodder when companies want to show death still means something in comics.

Examples: Kole, the Spot, D-Man, Black Lightning, Sersi, Gilgamesh and pretty much everyone else not named.

I've tried to only list heroes unless the villain warrants special attention like The Joker or Lex Luthor.

Agree? Disagree?

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'd say the Hulk is also an iconic character, though on a lesser level than Superman, Batman, Spidey or Wonder-Woman. Depending on how you look at it, he's either the least of the truly iconic ones, or the highest-ranking of the semi-iconic characters, ahead of folk like Wolverine and the Punisher.

[The Shadow]

I'd say the Hulk is also an iconic character, though on a lesser level than Superman, Batman, Spidey or Wonder-Woman. Depending on how you look at it, he's either the least of the truly iconic ones, or the highest-ranking of the semi-iconic characters, ahead of folk like Wolverine and the Punisher.
Hulk was in in-betweener... that's why I put him in the semi-iconic class

[Tommy]

Actually I would say several of Batman's villains (mainly Catwoman and the Joker) are at least semi-iconic.

I don’t think I know anyone who couldn’t identify them (including my Grandmother).

Thank you 70's TV.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Actually I would say several of Batman's villains (mainly Catwoman and the Joker) are at least semi-iconic.

I don’t think I know anyone who couldn’t identify them (including my Grandmother).

Thank you 70's TV.


I have to agree. The Joker, Riddler and Catwoman are more recognized than any Marvel characters other than Spider-Man (probably a tie there) and maybe the Hulk. They're certainly more recognizable by the general public than any Marvel heroine.

[dingo]

I think this whole icon debate has been hugely changed in the past few years by the floodgates of marvel movies opening. Ten more years and wolverine will be as big an icon as those on the Hulk/Joker level. If not moreso.

[icctrombone]

I think that Electra classifies as one. How many ninja women proceeded her ?

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think that Electra classifies as one. How many ninja women proceeded her ?

Iconic doesn't have anything to do with uniqueness, it has to do with recognizable penetration of an idea beyond a subculture into the general culture. By that standard, Elektra is a non-entity.

As to female ninjas before Elektra, I'm guessing there were plenty of manga examples.

[lead sharp]

I did think this may have popped up before or something like it, I do apologise, it does at least seem to have generated an interesting debate that has spun about in a few circles I didn't see coming.

My original post was pertaining more to the how the characters are represented in their respective universes but the debate coming in about how well characters would be recognised by 'Joe Public' is just as fun.

I think it boils down to many things, one that I can't see mentioned is the idea that while there have been good stories written around female Marvels there have been no epic classics that could help thrust a female character that's only been around for so many years.

I think the closest has to be Electra, she's far more consistant both visually and in character than the others mentioned.

I also can't help wondering what things would be like if the Sentry had been written as female...

[Arilou]

The ICONS are characters that ANY non-comic book fans (like your grandmother) have no problem recognizing.
Examples (and there are only four): Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Spiderman.
There are some up and coming icons... Wolverine, Hulk, and Robin the Boy Wonder.

This kind of varies though, with location and time: I know that Lee Falk's The Phantom would certainly qualify as iconic here (though admittedly he's not from either of the Big Two) I don't know *anyone* who wouldn't recognize him.

Admittedly it also changes a bit here: Marvel has a lot more sway than DC (People would recognize Batman, Superman (strangely enough Bat-villains are a lot more iconic than Superman-ones) Joker and possibly Catwoman, but no other DC character, while Marvel would have at least Hulk, Spider-Man and possibly Wolverine)

[Rorschach4100]

I actually just wrote a term paper somewhat on the fact that most comics in general don't have women characters that are easily identifiable. Discluding Wonder Woman of course.

[Love Machine]

The real question is when was the last time Marvel/DC actually created an iconic character?

Venom and the revamped Ghost Rider is the closest Marvel has come in that regard in the last 20 years

Storm would probably be the most recongnised woman from the MU..having an oscar winning actress play you in a movie will do that to you...

[Tommy]

The real question is when was the last time Marvel/DC actually created an iconic character?
Personally I think it is impossible to create a new Iconic character when the old ones still exist.

Take the DCU. Everyone looks up to Superman and is intimidated by Batman. Therefore no one can climb out of their shadows to achieve Iconic status.

Marvel is slightly better.

[Hi-Fi]

E Characters
These are the bottom of the barrel. Used as cannon fodder when companies want to show death still means something in comics.

Examples: Sersi



What??

Sersi is not cannon fodder!! You take that back!:evilangry



Oh, and I think Storm is the closest to what we can call an iconic Marvel woman.

[Rorschach4100]

Yeah, I think it would definatly have to be either Storm or Jean Grey but only because of the movies really and maybe the 90's TV show.

[lead sharp]

Storm has the potential but she's never realy been represented as what you might think of as iconic.

Fundamentaly icon types don't change (at least visually) Storms look and powers have wobbled all over the place since her inception.

It would be interesting to see Marvel try and come up with a genuine attempt at a female icon type (or one with the potential) character. After all what a wasted oppertunity Miss Marvel is.

[stealthwise]

Mary Jane Watson.

[lead sharp]

Actually that's brilliant. Imagine the strength of a character to stick with their superhero husband.

Certainly in a 'classic' Marvel feel.