Welcome to the Danger Room

[Uncle Nobs]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Longshot/dp/087135568X/sr=1-3/qid=1157315137/ref=sr_1_3/202-9337526-8682251?ie=UTF8&s=books

Is this the right longshot tpb? Whee!
Yup. That's it.

[Mikl C]

I'm so participating! *buys*

[Mikl C]

That was... quite costly.

[fishtaco]

That was... quite costly.How much in American money?

[Mikl C]

About $66. That's alot because i'm poor.

[fishtaco]

About $66. That's alot because i'm poor.That's a crapload for me, too. I've read Longshot before, but I don't own the issues. Crap.

[Uncle Nobs]

Cost me a total of $18.83.

I don't mean that to rub it d_p's face. Just want to encourage everyone to find the best deals.

[Slung]

Oh for sure. Her original body was playing lady of the lake. No question.

It's just that there are two schools of thought over whether the Phoenix Force just cloned Jean and copied her memories to create the woman known as Phoenix, or if the Phoenix Force actually split her soul in two as well as copying her body and mind, making both women (original Jean and Phoenix-Jean) truly Jean.

It didn't even split her soul in two - according to Classic X-Men 8, pretty much all of her soul went into the new body - it said only a spark remained in the coccoon body. This is like Xavier being transferred from original body to clone body. He's still Xavier, just in a new body.

The difference being that the original body was brought back to life, with only a spark of a soul - I guess "coccoon woman" really was less Jean Grey until Inferno. Although it could be that when the Phoenix force brought back her soul and the original body rejected it, she infused the rest of her soul and merely rejected the memories of when she was Phoenix to save herself from having to deal with the whole Dark Phoenix trauma.

Point being, it was Jean who died on the moon and it was Jean who came back to X-Factor. Just not the same body. Same soul, same Jean, different body. Everybody's happy. Jean refused to accept that she was ever Dark Phoenix (can we say denial?) and only recently (Morrison's run and Pak's Endsong) has she allowed herself to come to grips with the truth. That is the way current canon seems to stand on the issue.

From what I understand from Morrison's run, when Jean dies she leaves a coccoon (he called it Phoenix egg) as a failsafe. In his final arc, a coccoon was found on the moon where Jean died.

Jean herself said it wasn't her at all. SO unless she's secretly EEEVIL then I'd believe her. Oh wait.
She isn't evil - she just couldn't handle the guilt and pain associated with Dark Phoenix. It would be a hard thing to come to grips with - so she rejected those memories.

Phoenix is Jean and so is Marvel Girl. Yay!

This way, we can enjoy Jean as Jean during her time as Phoenix in those classic Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne issues and enjoy Jean as Jean post coccoon.

:) It seems we are changing topics...and I didn't notice until now...

*ahem*On to the Firestar mini...This was my first introduction to the X-Men. And I love it! Emma Frost is absolutely evil in this mini. I mean murdering, manipulative, coldblooded evil! She scared me when I read this thing (I was like five or six). Even now, she still scares the bejeebus out of me sometimes.

[xakko]

*ahem*On to the Firestar mini...This was my first introduction to the X-Men. And I love it! Emma Frost is absolutely evil in this mini. I mean murdering, manipulative, coldblooded evil! She scared me when I read this thing (I was like five or six). Even now, she still scares the bejeebus out of me sometimes.
please do not discuss the next assignment until the appropriate time.

there is no extra credit for turning it in early

[Slung]

Sorry, I'm just messing up all over the place. I thought I was off talking about Classic X-Men...and really, I was fine. I mis-read the original post and thought it said "Sept 1" not "21". Dumb of me. Okay...back to Classic X-Men ;). Mea culpa.

[Uncle Nobs]

Sorry for the bump. Trying to get new participants, after all. :)

[xgeek52]

computer's been down...is there a list for septemeber...

[Mikl C]

My issues arrived today! I'm LOVING firestar. Longshot looks skanky. I'll give it a go, freaking paid enough for it :p

[The Fury]

Issues are Longshot 1-6 and Firestar 1-4 correct?

I'll try and get them but I'm promissing nothing.

[Mikl C]

They're on Amazon fury. I highly recommend the Firestar one anyway. It's cheapy cheapy digest form!

[xgeek52]

if i'm understanding right firestar and longshot are september...i'll take a pass...don't like 'em as character's, never will...

[Uncle Nobs]

computer's been down...is there a list for septemeber...
All assignments are always edited into the first post. :)

[Uncle Nobs]

if i'm understanding right firestar and longshot are september...i'll take a pass...don't like 'em as character's, never will...
Well, that's the point of this thread:

To discover new material and open ourselves up to new experiences.

[Cayman]

What the hell is this thread anyway?

[Affinity]

So, has everyone found it easy to find the materials?

lolol that was my cheap bump

[Mikl C]

I can't wait til we all start discussing this! yay for uncle Nobs!

[fishtaco]

What the hell is this thread anyway?Read the first post. :)

[Arrjay]

*Bumps.*

Ten. Ten.

[Uncle Nobs]

What the hell is this thread anyway?
This is the Jerk Club. Welcome home! :D

[Uncle Nobs]

Sorry to keep bumping this thread (from the third page, no less), but I'm hoping for as many participants as possible.

I'm SO looking forward to discussing this assignment! :D

[xakko]

I just got my copy of Longshot TPB today, hooray!

[spoon_jenkins]

I just finished Firestar. Moving on to Longshot. Hope we got a lot of folks for round 2! :D

[Uncle Nobs]

I know--I'm finding it tough to keep mum!

[Affinity]

Me too! I have so much to say about Longshot! =X

[Uncle Nobs]

Two days until this assignment is due!

My copy of Firestar is late. Grr.

[Dizzy D]

Can we start on this or do you want to initiate the conversation yourself, Nobs?

[Uncle Nobs]

Can we start on this or do you want to initiate the conversation yourself, Nobs?
Oh absolutely--DIG IN! :D

I'll be without 'net access for a few days, it seems, but you guys feel free to go nuts here. My copy of Firestar still hasn't arrived yet, anyway.

[xakko]

Can we start on this or do you want to initiate the conversation yourself, Nobs?
it's the 21st, so, i think you can go ahead...

i liked Longshot a heckuva lot more than Firestar, but part of that is because the central premise of Angelica being the "perfect assassin" is based on a myth- that microwaves heat from the inside out, which has been since disproved.

and as much as I liked Longshot, i think Ann Nocenti's introduction was accurate- they were striving for something with the character that they never quite achieved. but it was a fun ride, regardless.

i'd never read either of these series before, so it was all new. i knew some of these characters from X-books (well, all of the ones in Firestar, pretty much, but most of the Longshot characters too).

Angelica is a strong female character, who starts out maybe a little too naive. it distracted me, anyway, a teenager buying into some of that stuff. but it did make a stark comparison between the insecure girl in the beginning to the young woman who whomps Emma Frost but good.

[Mikl C]

Oh can we go?
Ok Firestar first. I found this so easy to get into! Good art, etc. Those girls were such bitches hissss. I have the M. *gasp* lolol.
Anyway I think this mini is the best WhiteQueen I've ever seen- completely ruthless coldhearted bitch with a tinnnny sense at the end that she did actually care about her.
Angelica was easy to identify with and feel bad for, she got screwed over alot. OMG NOT THE HORSE. eep.
Angel rocked the joint when she finally found out what was going on, although she should have burned emma's face right off.
lolol. 4/5 altogether, simple to read, well written.

Longshot. Eurrr at the start I literally found it tough to continue reading. It felt like the dialogue was translated badly from another language or something.
The colouring was also a bit woah.
Butttttt after about issue 3 I really started to enjoy the style. It's so random and chaotic, a bit like Longshot. He's a great character, wonderfully optimistic but naive.
Why did Ma'gog help him at the start anyone?
Awesome Shulk and Strange cameos. I liked the characterisation of mojo alot better than any I've read him since- he felt like a legitimate threat this time. Spiral was good too, although I really don't want Ricochet to become her :( she really suffered enough.
4/5 too, for entirely different reasons.

[Mariah]

I'm still waiting for my Longshot lmt. series to come in the mail, so I'm unable to comment on this, but I do have the Firestar lmt. series, and just finished reading it last night. It was amazing. The characterization was right on for how Emma was portrayed, which, back then, it was a rarity to do it seemed. The art was great, is it just me, or is Steve Leialoha the most underrated artist of the 80's(yes, I know he just inked, but you could soo tell he was doing the inking on this book). And while I didn't care for most of Mary Wilshire's pencils on her New Mutant stint, I think it's because it didn't mesh well with Bill's inks, than her artwork. I would definately give it a 4.5 out of 5

[Dizzy D]

I don't have much to say about Firestar, except that she was much younger than I thought she would be (13 years in issue #1? That would make her younger than Kitty.) She definitely got a couple of years added on to her in her later appearances. Overall I wasn't too impressed with the series, all emotions and reactions seemed to be so exaggerated for all characters.

Longshot then; one of my favourites and I read it dozens of time before, so I wasn't exactly discovering new things. Reading it it is funny how some characters are changed during the story. I'm not talking about character development here; let's take Spiral.
In issue #1 she is one of the bounty hunters, half-naked and following Gog's orders, but by issue 3 she is wearing armour and while Gog still seems to be in charge, he's threating her with some respect. Then when they return to Mojoverse, she is standing seperate from the other bounty hunters and Mojo even adresses her by her name, while it's obvious that the others are just faceless pawns to him, in return Mojo allows her to talk to him in ways none of the others (except maybe Major Domo) are allowed to talk. (And Gog disappears from the story without trace once they return to Mojo, you would expect he cared more about his son). It's as if Ann Nocenti or Arthur Adams started to like Spiral more and more while writing and kept increasing her part in the story.

Jackson looks a lot like Michael Jackson during those years, so I guess that's intentional. Odd that we never heard Longshot talk about him again (I guess the constant brainwashing is to be blamed)

I like Arize a lot. How brilliant is this guy, dragging a stone-age civilization by himself into a futuristic society? Too bad he had few appearances after this mini and none of them any good. Same for Magog, who has since been portrayed as a brutal and rather dim monster, while in this story he's quite intelligent (even if he seems to wander between simply manipulating Longshot and caring a bit about him.)

[fishtaco]

Firestar is one of my favorite 80's mini series. I also think that Emma Frost was at her best in it. She has never been written better. Who created Firestar? I know she first appeared on TV to replace the Human Torch on the Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends show, but would that mean that Tom DeFalco, Mary Wilshire, Chris Claremont, Dan Green, or John Romita Jr. did not create her? Does anyone know?

Mary Wilshire's art was awesome. At this time, she also took over as the artist on New Mutants with Sienkiewicz's inks. Those issues looked great. I like the way she uses shadows to show the mood of a scene, and I like the panel angles. The panels feel like they're moving. I liked how the mini went more in-depth with the tension within the Inner Circle itself, with how Emma and Sebastian wanted Selene murdered, which goes along with Shaw's comment in Uncanny X-Men #208 when Selene reported that Phoenix tried to kill her. Tessa also realized right off the bat that Selene was dangerous in Uncanny X-Men #189 when she wanted Shaw to use Phoenix and Magma to kill Selene. I liked Randall, her bodyguard. I also liked Cannonball's role in the story, and I thought it was kind of funny when Emma yelled at Angel because she could have burned him. If X-Men (1st Series) #131 didn't already do it, then Firestar #'s 1-4 really shows that Emma Frost is evil and unredeemable. She's as bad as it gets. I think we could have seen more of the Hellions. This was a good opportunity to show more of Empath and Roulette, although they did do a little bit to bring Angel down. Still, I think they could have had a bigger role. Great characterizations of the X-Men and New Mutants. More later...

[Mikl C]

Eurgh I forgot to mention my gripe with Firestar. The actual "master plan" seemd to come from NOWHERE. I mean she was training to kill the X-MEN/Xavier for the first half then all of a sudden it's like "Crap, Thunderbird did that... go for Selene!"
Randommmmm. And as if she could've taken Selene! Haha!
I liked how Emma wasn't uber powrful too, but eeeeviler. muhaahaha!

[Dizzy D]

Who created Firestar? I know she first appeared on TV to replace the Human Torch on the Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends show, but would that mean that Tom DeFalco, Mary Wilshire, Chris Claremont, Dan Green, or John Romita Jr. did not create her? Does anyone know?

We talked about it here:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3253025&postcount=63

Best I could find is John Buscema for art (though Tetragene says it was John Romita Sr. and knows more about her, so I think tetragene is right on that) and Cristy Marx for her first appearance on Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, but she probably was created by the whole writing team of the show.

[Affinity]

LONGSHOT WOOOOO!

Very difficult in the beginning, yo. VERY.

And Angelica has a nice name :D

[spoon_jenkins]

I had not read either before, except I read half of issue 1 of Longshot and I think I casually flipped through an issue or two of Firestar.

Firestar was better than I expected. I think I tend to underestimate the writing skills of Tom Defalco. He did a good job with the scripting. It didn't feel as forced as I anticipated. Their miniseries plot was very taut and organized for its purpose: showing the attempt to manipulate Angelica Jones into being an assassin. I was a bit confused about the tone though. At times it seemed the series was directed toward young girls. At other times it seemed directed towards older readers.

I think that that Steve Leialoha's inks improved Mary Wilshire's pencils. I'm not sure I luck her work much.

Longshot is very ambitious, but it's uneven in its execution. It's interesting to see super-early Art Adams. He could be sloppy at times, but still brilliant. I love the big panel with Magog during his fight with Longshot.

Ann Nocenti is one of those writers who can be great and awful at the same time. She's very ambitious and creative. However, she can also be too pretentious and awkwardly try to shove social/political commentary in the story. Longshot is such a different series with such creative characters. But some of her writing just wears on me. For someone opposed to The Man, Nocenti seems to have a lot of contempt for "ordinary" people. Jinx, as a character, was simultaneous hilarious and painful to read. She also seems to write bipolar characters; they bounce back and forth between loving the world and think everything sucks. Magog was very cool - both as a character and a visual.

[spoon_jenkins]

So does any know what Nocenti's plans were for Longshot after the mini originally? I get the impression from the end of the mini that he wasn't originally intended to move on to the X-Men. Plus, I think there was a bit of a lag until he showed up again.

Seems to me that Firestar's chronology causes headaches for folks that are into Marvel Time and continuity and all that. It takes place over several years, stretching out that time in X-Men history. Plus, since Firestar starts out in "her thirteenth year" that would make her actually 12 when it starts. That makes her younger than Kitty, which doesn't seem to fit with her other appearances. She didn't seem just 14 or whatever during UXM #193. To me, Firestar doesn't seem younger than Kitty. She was a full-fledged Avenger. I imagine her to be 2 years (or even more) older than Kitty.

[fishtaco]

So does any know what Nocenti's plans were for Longshot after the mini originally? I get the impression from the end of the mini that he wasn't originally intended to move on to the X-Men. Plus, I think there was a bit of a lag until he showed up again.Not sure, but Nocenti and Adams were going to do a second Longshot limited series in 1989-1990. That's why Claremont exited Longshot from the roster in Uncanny X-Men #248. Unfortunately, it never happened for reasons that were never explained in detail, and we ended up with X-Men (2nd Series) #'s 10-11. As for Longshot doing something other than joining the X-Men after the limited series, I have no idea. I didn't even get this impression. Can you elaborate further? :)

I don't think Firestar's chronology is confusing. Firestar #'s 1-2 must take place between Uncanny X-Men #'s 180 and 193, and Firestar #'s 3-4 must take place after Uncanny X-Men #193 and before New Warriors (1st Series) #1. I suppose the hardest part about this is several years passing in between Uncanny X-Men #'s 180 and 193. Otherwise, I don't think it's all that difficult. :)

[Mariah]

Okay, I've had the longshot mini for almost like, a week.(okay, three days) and I have to say, it's really hard to get into, I'm only into issue 2 right now. I hope the rest of the damn mini isn't like this. But I just got my Kitty and Wolvie mini today joy of joys!!!

[spoon_jenkins]

I don't think Firestar's chronology is confusing. Firestar #'s 1-2 must take place between Uncanny X-Men #'s 180 and 193, and Firestar #'s 3-4 must take place after Uncanny X-Men #193 and before New Warriors (1st Series) #1. I suppose the hardest part about this is several years passing in between Uncanny X-Men #'s 180 and 193. Otherwise, I don't think it's all that difficult. :)
Yeah, I just meant in the sense you indicated. There's a lot of time passing in Firestar, and I don't think that matches up with how much times passes in Uncanny X-Men.

And Kitty turned 14 around Uncanny #160-something. So she'd be like 2 years older than Angelica. That doesn't seem to fit. Rage was kicked out of the Avengers in the December 1991 issue because she was a minor. But there were no objections to Firestar circa 1997, so she'd have to be at least 18. That would mean Kitty was 20 back then. I don't know; it's seems off to me. Firestar wasn't written that young in Avengers.

[Dizzy D]

Yeah, I just meant in the sense you indicated. There's a lot of time passing in Firestar, and I don't think that matches up with how much times passes in Uncanny X-Men.

And Kitty turned 14 around Uncanny #160-something. So she'd be like 2 years older than Angelica. That doesn't seem to fit. Rage was kicked out of the Avengers in the December 1991 issue because she was a minor. But there were no objections to Firestar circa 1997, so she'd have to be at least 18. That would mean Kitty was 20 back then. I don't know; it's seems off to me. Firestar wasn't written that young in Avengers.

I think the reason behind this problem is that the Firestar everybody knew (the cartoon version) was the same age as Iceman and Spider-Man. Making the comic version then nearly 10 years younger certainly is an odd decision.

[Uncle Nobs]

I haven't received my copy of Firestar yet and I still have one more chapter to read in Longshot.

Did anyone notice that Longshot has a healing factor (chapter 3, page 5, panel 1)? Or that he can not only read an object's past, but its future, too (chapter 5, page 18, panel 6)?

Funny how nobody's used these powers since. We've seen him use his psychometry, but never to read an object's future.

[Arrjay]

I need to pee.

Can I have a bathroom pass?

[Uncle Nobs]

I need to pee.

Can I have a bathroom pass?
See that paper on your desk with the big red F on it? That's your pass.

You can also use it to wipe. Just FYI.

[Dizzy D]

I haven't received my copy of Firestar yet and I still have one more chapter to read in Longshot.

Did anyone notice that Longshot has a healing factor (chapter 3, page 5, panel 1)? Or that he can not only read an object's past, but its future, too (chapter 5, page 18, panel 6)?

Funny how nobody's used these powers since. We've seen him use his psychometry, but never to read an object's future.

He read Shadowcat's future shortly after Mutant Massacre when she is "falling apart". The healing factor was touched upon in Shatterstar, though I don't know if that was a conscious decision or just coincidence. His leathery skin is also not mentioned in his later appearances.

[spoon_jenkins]

He read Shadowcat's future shortly after Mutant Massacre when she is "falling apart". The healing factor was touched upon in Shatterstar, though I don't know if that was a conscious decision or just coincidence. His leathery skin is also not mentioned in his later appearances.
On the other hand, I don't think the mini mentioned Longshot's hollow bones. And it's funny that no one in the mini mentioned his figures. Fans might have thought it was just a mistake.

[Uncle Nobs]

On the other hand, I don't think the mini mentioned Longshot's hollow bones. And it's funny that no one in the mini mentioned his figures. Fans might have thought it was just a mistake.
Yeah, in the mini, all we get is She-Hulk surprised at how far he flies when she doesn't hit him very hard. I think Claremont first suggested hollow bones in whatever issue of Uncanny it was where they were training and hiding out on Alcatraz, just before the Fall of the Mutants. Pretty good explanation, if you ask me. (...Not that anyone asked me. I just shoot my mouth off without prompting.)

As far as the fingers go, in chapter 5, page 4, panel 1, Mojo says to Rita, "...But you do have the right number of limbs... but too many fingers!" To me, it served as a tiny acknowledgement of the slave race's missing digits (in other words, they're FREAKS).

This might be my dorkiest post ever. I really need to finish that last chapter now that I'm home from work. Then I can actually contribute more than just nerdisms. ...Maybe.

[Dizzy D]

Yeah, in the mini, all we get is She-Hulk surprised at how far he flies when she doesn't hit him very hard. I think Claremont first suggested hollow bones in whatever issue of Uncanny it was where they were training and hiding out on Alcatraz, just before the Fall of the Mutants. Pretty good explanation, if you ask me. (...Not that anyone asked me. I just shoot my mouth off without prompting.)

As far as the fingers go, in chapter 5, page 4, panel 1, Mojo says to Rita, "...But you do have the right number of limbs... but too many fingers!" To me, it served as a tiny acknowledgement of the slave race's missing digits (in other words, they're FREAKS).

This might be my dorkiest post ever. I really need to finish that last chapter now that I'm home from work. Then I can actually contribute more than just nerdisms. ...Maybe.

The Marvel Handbook entry on Longshot mentioned the bird-like, hollow bones as a reason for his agility and that was before he appeared in X-Men, so either Nocenti had the idea herself and told Gruenwald, but didn't mention it in the mini or Gruenwald came up with it.

[fishtaco]

Ann Nocenti might have asked Claremont to put in the "hollow bones" explanation. She was, after all, editing Uncanny X-Men at that time.

[spoon_jenkins]

As far as the fingers go, in chapter 5, page 4, panel 1, Mojo says to Rita, "...But you do have the right number of limbs... but too many fingers!" To me, it served as a tiny acknowledgement of the slave race's missing digits (in other words, they're FREAKS).
Oops, forgot that scene.

[fishtaco]

I liked the animosity between Colossus and Emma Frost in Firestar #2. It felt like anything could happen at any moment. I just re-read it again, and I swear that there is no opportunity for redemption in Emma Frost.

[Mariah]

I liked the animosity between Colossus and Emma Frost in Firestar #2. It felt like anything could happen at any moment. I just re-read it again, and I swear that there is no opportunity for redemption in Emma Frost.
We all have our bad days, I mean, I just killed three of my wards bunnies yesterday, so they will be indelibly connected to me, because their horrible powers may kill the unsuspecting humans at anytime.

[Uncle Nobs]

I am going to shoot myself. I just wrote a LONG post about Longshot and accidentally deleted it.

I have to do it all over again now. I hate myself.

[spoon_jenkins]

How do folks think Tom Defalco handled the dialogue for the X-book characters in Firestar? I think he did a surprisingly good job. Everyone seemed to have their genuine "voice" as written by Claremont (but perhaps without the verbal tics).

I like Defalco's portrayal of the members of the Lords Cardinal. He did a good job of portraying the willingness of Frost and Shaw to kill their supposed ally, Selene. To me that gets to the heart of the Black King and White Queen. Basically, they're worse people than most of the less refined villains out there. They think about the vicious things they do before they do them. They're smart and calculating.

I thought Nocenti's dialogue for Dr. Strange was a little shaky. Then again, I don't read much Dr. Strange, so maybe I don't realize what he actually sounds like.

[Mariah]

i too was pleasantly surprised with defalco's portrayal of the characters. I especially enjoyed his Emma. She was such a manipulative bitch. I didn't know Nocenti's Dr. Strange was part of the reading assignment, so I didn't read any(the fact that I dont' have any, either may be the reason for this)

[fishtaco]

How do folks think Tom Defalco handled the dialogue for the X-book characters in Firestar? I think he did a surprisingly good job. Everyone seemed to have their genuine "voice" as written by Claremont (but perhaps without the verbal tics).I thought it was fine, and I agree with what you said about everyone having their genuine (or distinct) voice. But yes, the Claremontisms were absent. I also liked a lot of the characterization of some of the X-Men and New Mutants in Firestar, especially that of Magik, Magma, Professor X, Sunspot and Cannonball. :)

[Uncle Nobs]

So I kinda loved Longshot. I always did, but it had been maybe 15 years since I last read it.

It's NOT a perfect series by any means. In fact, it's not even a great series. It's got all kinds of problems. But it's a fun series, and in that, it succeeds in a way that even many better crafted series fail.

Spoon said it perfectly when he called it ambitious. It's the freshman effort of two people who love comics and are thrilled beyond belief to finally get their big break. Miniseries were not as common in '85, and especially with untested new characters and whole new mythologies tacked onto the MU. There's genuine excitement in there, even if it lacks structure at times.

Longshot is an ambitious character--tons of strangely defined powers (maybe too many, even), not created to really fit in neatly in one corner of the MU or another. You get the sense that Art & Ann just reeeaally wanted to do their best and make it shine. Art's illustrations are so lovingly detailed. You have to remember that almost nobody drew with such detail back then. Ann seems to have kept on adding in whatever ideas they were excited by, even though they sometimes made for a choppy ride. They seemed to flesh out the character and his world with so many details, I can't help but imagine their brainstorming sessions. It's much more than you often see in a character's debut. Less broad strokes, more intricacy.

Ann's writing actually works for me. I totally get why people would get annoyed by the disconnected, rambling, fickle narrative and dialogue. But it makes sense to me. In Longshot in particular and her later work as well, she seems to write about being surrounded by insanity, yet the heroes themselves can hardly be said to be sane. Sanity, logic, and a strict moral code aren't what saves the day. Instead, it's something more abstract--a part of the hero that is true, even if it's just as hard to grasp and make sense out of as the insanity around him. There's something very true about that idea to me. Even to the supposedly sane people in the story like the mother of the stolen baby and whoever said, "He's beyond crazy. He's... right," (I can't find it right now) they seem to grasp that even though things don't always make sense, they can trust that part of themselves that sees into a person and knows that they should just trust them anyway.

(This big focus on the disenfranchised and marginally insane is really indicative of a lot of '80s fiction, especially stuff set in New York. Reagan basically kicked the invalids out of the sanitariums, flooding the streets with the insane. You see it in Frank Miller's '80s work, Bill Sienkiewicz's work, Hill Street Blues, and all kinds of other fiction. But I digress.)

It's clear (to me, anyway) that Ann & Art knew where they wanted to take the story, but they weren't sure how to get there. As Dizzy mentioned, Spiral was completely revamped in issue 4 and Ann & Art seemed to realize, "Oh yeah... We don't really have a significant antagonist." Introducing Mojo after the story was halfway through was enough to make me wonder if they were trying to rework the story or if Ann just didn't understand how to pace it in the first place. Gog n' Mgog didn't really represent anything significant enough to the core concept to make him a significant antagonist. It seemed like they realized this, killed him off, and figured out they'd need to use the head slaver as the main villain instead of using just another slave.

But here's what makes it really sing to me: It's a mess that's so purely a work of love, just as its hero is a mess who purely leads with his heart.

I love all the messy little bits they put in. All the pop culture references, with Michael Jackson as Jackson, George C. Scott as Eliot, and Gumby popping up everywhere. Ann & Art's cameo in the last three panels of chapter 3.

Was it just me, or did Gog n' Mgog look a lot like Magus in chapter 5? It felt like Art was channeling Sienkiewicz to me.

I know a lot of people hated Mojo and/or Longshot. How many of you who hated them have reconsidered that now? Can any of you see Mojo as a genuinely creepy, dangerous villain now?

[Uncle Nobs]

i too was pleasantly surprised with defalco's portrayal of the characters. I especially enjoyed his Emma. She was such a manipulative bitch. I didn't know Nocenti's Dr. Strange was part of the reading assignment, so I didn't read any(the fact that I dont' have any, either may be the reason for this)
Doc Strange appears in Longshot, written by Nocenti. :)

[fishtaco]

Longshot is an ambitious character--tons of strangely defined powers (maybe too many, even), not created to really fit in neatly in one corner of the MU or another. You get the sense that Art & Ann just reeeaally wanted to do their best and make it shine. Art's illustrations are so lovingly detailed. You have to remember that almost nobody drew with such detail back then. Ann seems to have kept on adding in whatever ideas they were excited by, even though they sometimes made for a choppy ride. They seemed to flesh out the character and his world with so many details, I can't help but imagine their brainstorming sessions. It's much more than you often see in a character's debut. Less broad strokes, more intricacy. I love the detail in Adam's art. I actually spend more time looking at each panel for the details. I love it.

Ann's writing actually works for me. I totally get why people would get annoyed by the disconnected, rambling, fickle narrative and dialogue. But it makes sense to me. In Longshot in particular and her later work as well, she seems to write about being surrounded by insanity, yet the heroes themselves can hardly be said to be sane. Sanity, logic, and a strict moral code aren't what saves the day. Instead, it's something more abstract--a part of the hero that is true, even if it's just as hard to grasp and make sense out of as the insanity around him. There's something very true about that idea to me. Even to the supposedly sane people in the story like the mother of the stolen baby and whoever said, "He's beyond crazy. He's... right," (I can't find it right now) they seem to grasp that even though things don't always make sense, they can trust that part of themselves that sees into a person and knows that they should just trust them anyway. That's actually what the goal was. One of the concepts that Ann was trying to present was about a sane person in an insane world. A person who knows the truth in a world of lies. Ann also writes a lot of comics that are political in nature, and I think Longshot showed how badly the mass media influences people's minds.

It's clear (to me, anyway) that Ann & Art knew where they wanted to take the story, but they weren't sure how to get there. As Dizzy mentioned, Spiral was completely revamped in issue 4 and Ann & Art seemed to realize, "Oh yeah... We don't really have a significant antagonist." Introducing Mojo after the story was halfway through was enough to make me wonder if they were trying to rework the story or if Ann just didn't understand how to pace it in the first place. Gog n' Mgog didn't really represent anything significant enough to the core concept to make him a significant antagonist. It seemed like they realized this, killed him off, and figured out they'd need to use the head slaver as the main villain instead of using just another slave. Yeah, there was definitely some instances of Ann and Art changing their minds. Good call.

[spoon_jenkins]

Very nice post, Nobs. Although my posts on Longshot probably come across as more critical, I agree with much of Uncle Nobs's assessment. Longshot does very much come across a "labor of love" by new creators and that's reflecting in both its immense creative and its unevenness.

I do think there was retooling of the roles of the villains along the way, but I'm not sure I believe it was quite so drastic. I do think Spiral was reworked to be a more prominent character, but Magog didn't seem to me to be planned to be the main antagonist. I'm not so sure about Mojo - maybe they weren't planning to focus on just one "spineless one."

I definitely agree with the new mythology idea. Longshot is so ripe with its own ideas that they could have set the series in its own universe outside the MU (finding some stand-ins for She-Hulk, Spidey, and Dr. Strange) and I think it would have worked just as well or better.

Reading Longshot makes me want to dig up the Shattershot annual crossover and re-read it. I don't think I've read it since it first came out (around 1991 or 1992). From my vague recollections, I think it may have stuck closer to the original conceptions of the characters than Claremont's use of them.

It's interesting to see how Claremont altered the portrayals of characters created in Longshot. That's just an observation - I'm not sure whether I prefer his changes or not. For example, Mojo seems much more horrifying and less comical in the mini-series. In the mini, Spiral seems more colloquial and human (but still nasty) whereas Claremont's seems more distant and otherworldly. The Brat Pack (I think that's what they're called - Alfie, Darla, etc.) seem more cartoonish in Claremont's portrayal. IIRC, the kids were also recurring characters in Nocenti's Daredevil. I think she also took a more realistic angle with them there.

[Mariah]

Doc Strange appears in Longshot, written by Nocenti. :)
well, I guess that's what I get for not reading the whole thing yet.

[Uncle Nobs]

For example, Mojo seems much more horrifying and less comical in the mini-series. In the mini, Spiral seems more colloquial and human (but still nasty) whereas Claremont's seems more distant and otherworldly.
Claremont's Mojo actually started out even creepier than in the mini, but it took a nosedive as if Chris had just given up on him at some point.

New Mutants Annual #2 and Uncanny Annual #10: Mojo's a rotting corpse of a villain who lures children to him and makes them adore him, twisting their souls to suit his needs. Creepy as hell.

Uncanny Annual #12: Big joke. No idea why. It continued from there.

(And I love how succinctly and eloquently you summed up Spiral!)




I'm really looking forward to reading Firestar (if it ever arrives). The stories we've read so far have been old favorites of mine, and I really don't want this thread to turn into an excuse to force my tastes on others. Thankfully, I can read Firestar without bias and for November, I'll try to go for some really random stuff that I have no connection to.

[fishtaco]

Claremont's Mojo actually started out even creepier than in the mini, but it took a nosedive as if Chris had just given up on him at some point.

New Mutants Annual #2 and Uncanny Annual #10: Mojo's a rotting corpse of a villain who lures children to him and makes them adore him, twisting their souls to suit his needs. Creepy as hell.

Uncanny Annual #12: Big joke. No idea why. It continued from there.

(And I love how succinctly and eloquently you summed up Spiral!) Yeah, Mojo lost the "creepiness" aspect in Uncanny X-Men Annual (1st Series) #12 (2nd Story). What do you think about how he (and/or Spiral) was/were handled in Uncanny X-Men #256? :)

[Indigo Al]

Yeah, Mojo lost the "creepiness" aspect in Uncanny X-Men Annual (1st Series) #12 (2nd Story). What do you think about how he (and/or Spiral) was/were handled in Uncanny X-Men #256? :)

Or better yet, the 90's cartoon??

"I Dream of Jean"!

[Uncle Nobs]

Yeah, Mojo lost the "creepiness" aspect in Uncanny X-Men Annual (1st Series) #12 (2nd Story). What do you think about how he (and/or Spiral) was/were handled in Uncanny X-Men #256? :)
You're right; Claremont went back to Creepy-Mojo for that one. But he plays a much smaller part in that than previous Mojo stories.

I'd still like to see someone bring Mojo back as the seriously messed up monster he was in the '87 annuals, and for a story that has a real lasting impact on the X-Men the way he used to. A little off-topic, but hey...

[Uncle Nobs]

Hey lurkers, speak up!

You don't have to write a freakin' sonnet like I did, but we definitely want to hear from you. :)

[Uncle Nobs]

Pete just reminded me it's the first of the month, so here's a reminder on our next assignment:

October 2006:
Classic X-Men #14-25, (Uncanny) X-Men #106, and (Uncanny) X-Men #110. Also available as Uncanny #106-119 (in multiple reprint editions) and X-Men: Vignettes (TPB) vol. 2. (#106 & 110 are not reprinted in Classic #14-25. If you choose to use the Classic X-Men reprints, I suggest reading #106 & 110 for free in a good bookstore or library.)
Due October 21st.

I know this is a broken record, but use your libraries and bookstores. I can't stress enough how easy it is, how cooperative they are, and how FREE it is! Plus, it's always better to get out a bit for some reading rather than staying in. Get some coffee, talk to girls, make a day of it. :)

[Indigo Al]

I know this is a broken record, but use your libraries and bookstores. I can't stress enough how easy it is, how cooperative they are, and how FREE it is! Plus, it's always better to get out a bit for some reading rather than staying in. Get some coffee, talk to girls, make a day of it. :)

Talk to girls with an X-Men TPB in your hand? Hmmm..... not a scenario I envision working...... :o

[Jack Flash]

Talk to girls with an X-Men TPB in your hand? Hmmm..... not a scenario I envision working...... :o

I do it all the time! Cool Thread, just wising up to it. I'll do my best to hunt down these.

[Uncle Nobs]

Talk to girls with an X-Men TPB in your hand? Hmmm..... not a scenario I envision working...... :o
Worked last week. ;)

[Mikl C]

The very sight of the word vignette offends me. And what darker_phoenix....

[Hi-Fi]

http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/2/2b/Danger.jpg


BOOOOOOOOOOOO

[CE_Rap]

still waiting on both to come in at my local Barnes and Noble. I ordered them sometime last week.

[spoon_jenkins]

Nobs, do you want to announce the November assignment early (like you did with the specific issue range of the October core canon assignment)? If it's announced earlier, that might reduce the chances of people getting their stuff late.

I think it would be good if all of us mention this thread elsewhere (like X-Cres), because I think many folks don't even know about this thread. Hopefully, participation will grow.

[fishtaco]

The next assignment sounds fun. I'm a big fan of several of those Classic X-Men issues, especially #'s 14-16, 19, 24. Oh, and the one with Storm and the M'Rin (I forget the issue number). I never quite understood that plot. I guess now I WILL be reading it again, so hopefully I can understand it better. Uncanny X-Men Annual (1st Series) #12 didn't help me understand it better much, either.

[Mariah]

can I pick the next reading assignment please nobs!!!!???!!! Longshot was too fricken boring, I had to drop it mid issue 2.

[The Lucky One]

Longshot was too fricken boring, I had to drop it mid issue 2.

...I take it all back.
:mad:

-D

[Mariah]

...I take it all back.
:mad:

-D
I'm sorry, drew. I really tried. Maybe if I switch to issue #3, I'll be able to get into it.

[Mikl C]

:o
You can't drop Longshot at TWO. THREE IS WHERE IT HAPPENS!!!!!!!!!!!

[Uncle Nobs]

Nobs, do you want to announce the November assignment early (like you did with the specific issue range of the October core canon assignment)? If it's announced earlier, that might reduce the chances of people getting their stuff late.

I think it would be good if all of us mention this thread elsewhere (like X-Cres), because I think many folks don't even know about this thread. Hopefully, participation will grow.
Good idear, Spoon. I'll work on it. Suggestions?

[Uncle Nobs]

can I pick the next reading assignment please nobs!!!!???!!! Longshot was too fricken boring, I had to drop it mid issue 2.
Of course! Anyone can jump in on any assignment. The only rule is that they actually read the assignment within that month (more or less). No "as I recall" or "back when I read it" posts.

[fishtaco]

Good idear, Spoon. I'll work on it. Suggestions?Byrne's Alpha Flight
Mantlo's Alpha Flight
Dazzler
Davis's Excalibur
MCP 72-84 (BWS)
Simonson's New Mutants
Stan Lee's (Uncanny) X-Men
Roy Thomas's (Uncanny) X-Men (either run)
Peter David, John Buscema, Archie Goodwin and John Byrne's Wolverine
Bob Layton, Louise Simonson and Jackson Guice's X-Factor
Louise and Walter Simonson's X-Factor
X-Men: Heroes For Hope
X-Terminators
Nightcrawler (1st Series)
Havok and Wolverine: Meltdown
Alan Moore's Captain Britain-based work

X-Tinction Agenda
Inferno
Fall of The Mutants
Mutant Massacre
Days of Future Present
Asgardian Wars
:)

[spoon_jenkins]

Good idear, Spoon. I'll work on it. Suggestions?
My preference is still for a major title that is readily available in TPB format to increase the likelihood of broad participation, so I'd like X-Factor or Wolverine (both Essentialized). But you'd prefer more obscure stuff in the non-Uncanny months, right?

Maybe a month of early Wolverine solo stuff like some combination the Wolverine limited series, Kitty and Wolverine limited series, Save the Tiger (from Marvel Comics Presents 1-10), Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure one-shot, etc. His original limited series and Save the Tiger have been reprinted and Jungle Adventure is available cheaply online.

I think Byrne's Alpha Flight would fit the alternate month spirit. I don't think it's been reprinted, but it's readily available. For example, mycomicshop.com and Mile High are both currently selling almost every issue of the his run for under $1 each.

[xakko]

most of 'taco's list would be cool. not too keen on some of the titles, but most are excellent. wouldn't mind a title i haven't read yet like Alpha Flight.

[Mariah]

Avoid Mantlo's flight like it was sars.

[Uncle Nobs]

Good suggestions, guys. Spoon, you're absolutely right. For the alternate months, I'd like our choices to meet the following criteria:

-Something I personally have no positive bias towards in order to keep this thread from becoming simply "everyone read Nobs' favorite stuff". I'll likely ease up on this rule later, since it would limit our choices in the long run.

-Tangential or character pieces. Not necessarily essential to core X-canon, but certainly relevant in their own regard.

-Older material. The fact is, anything released in the last few years always has some hoopla attached to it. Fans tend to remain divided on newer work and we develop argumentative factions. We tend to be able to apply a bit more perspective to older work.

-Obscure or possibly misunderstood. Discover some hidden gems, give some overlooked or dismissed comics a chance. In the end, if we still dislike them, let's at least be able to say we gave them a chance long after the hoopla died down and determine exactly what we disliked.

-Likely to have some merit. This is a tough call, since I'm looking for work that is overlooked or written off. But I'll try to at least skip stuff that is unlikely to be worth the effort, even years after the hoopla has settled.

-Short and self-contained. Since our even-numbered monthly assignment is long and ongoing, let's keep the odd-numbered months' assignments simple. Relatively, of course. There's some flexibility here.

-Relatively easy to obtain. There's flexibility here, too. Many people's definition of "easy to obtain" excludes several simple resources available to them. I don't want this to become an exercise in challenging participants to scour the earth for reading material or spend too much money, but I also don't want to shy away from books just because participants don't want to discover new resources. We can team up to get what we need.

-No Liefeld. ...maybe. :evilsmile




That said, I think the following suggestions fit the bill well:

-Byrne's Alpha Flight
-Moore's Captain Britain
-Dazzler
-Casey & Ladronn's Cable
-Muties
-The Brotherhood
-Morlocks
-Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix
-Beauty and the Beast
-X-Men: The Hellfire Club
-X-Men: Children of the Atom
-PAD's X-Factor
-A specific run of Generation X
-Champions
-Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix
-Further Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix
-Skroce's Gambit
-"Road Trip" X-Force
-Warlock
-X-Men: True Friends

I'd like to hold off on X-Factor vol. 1 and Excalibur vol. 1, since they are long, ongoing series. The '84 ('83?) Wolverine mini and Kitty Pryde series I'm planning to use as assignments to compliment our core canon reading when we reach that point in Uncanny. Same goes for X-Men Vs. Avengers, X-Men Vs. Fantastic Four, and Asgardian Wars. (Besides, I have a bias towards all of them.)

What does everyone think? Any preferences?

And Mariah, if you want to help pick the next assignment, you gotta speak up! ...and marry me, of course.

[Dizzy D]

-Byrne's Alpha Flight
-Moore's Captain Britain
-Dazzler
-Casey & Ladronn's Cable
-Muties
-The Brotherhood
-Morlocks
-Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix
-Beauty and the Beast
-X-Men: The Hellfire Club
-X-Men: Children of the Atom
-PAD's X-Factor
-A specific run of Generation X
-Champions
-Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix
-Further Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix
-Skroce's Gambit
-"Road Trip" X-Force
-Warlock
-X-Men: True Friends


I have no problem with any of those, though there are a few I haven't read. Champions came/is coming out in Essential recently?

[Mikl C]

Can we do Dazzler? Just so I can see what the raving (yet FABULOUS) fanboys see in her.

[spoon_jenkins]

Champions came/is coming out in Essential recently?
It was a color TPB: Champions Classic reprinting Champions #1-11.

[Mariah]

-No Liefeld. ...maybe. :evilsmile




That said, I think the following suggestions fit the bill well:

-Byrne's Alpha Flight
-Moore's Captain Britain
-Dazzler
-Casey & Ladronn's Cable
-Muties
-The Brotherhood
-Morlocks
-Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix
-Beauty and the Beast
-X-Men: The Hellfire Club
-X-Men: Children of the Atom
-PAD's X-Factor
-A specific run of Generation X
-Champions
-Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix
-Further Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix
-Skroce's Gambit
-"Road Trip" X-Force
-Warlock
-X-Men: True Friends

And Mariah, if you want to help pick the next assignment, you gotta speak up! ...and marry me, of course.
Okay, I choose Dazzler and Byrne's Alpha Flight. Specifically Dazzler 26-34 and the Graphic Novel. And Alpha 13-24. And I already told you yes Nobsy.

[xakko]

i'd vote for Alpha Flight, which I haven't read.

Please, no Dazzler.

[Hi-Fi]

Road Trip X-Force!!!

[Mariah]

i'd vote for Alpha Flight, which I haven't read.

Please, no Dazzler.
Sinner!!! It's seriously a really great book. It's too bad it didn't take off like it should have.

[xakko]

Sinner!!! It's seriously a really great book. It's too bad it didn't take off like it should have.
i have three issues and didn't care for any of them.

so i would prefer not to have to read any more.

[Mariah]

i have three issues and didn't care for any of them.

so i would prefer not to have to read any more.
which issues would this be? I really didn't start liking the book til around 13 or 14. As i fell in love with the series, it allowed me to enjoy the campiness of the first year on the book.

[xakko]

which issues would this be? I really didn't start liking the book til around 13 or 14. As i fell in love with the series, it allowed me to enjoy the campiness of the first year on the book.
the first two and one in the 30's where she fights Colossus and Wolverine.

and for an off topic month, i doubt we'd reach 13 or 14, if that's where it gets good. i don't mind camp, but there really wasn't anything here to appeal to me

[Mariah]

the first two and one in the 30's where she fights Colossus and Wolverine.

and for an off topic month, i doubt we'd reach 13 or 14, if that's where it gets good. i don't mind camp, but there really wasn't anything here to appeal to me
Ahh. You really didnt' like 38? wow, that was the first issue I ever bought. One of my favorites. I really would have liked to see where Goodwin was going with that book, as his run was really cut way too short.

[xakko]

Ahh. You really didnt' like 38? wow, that was the first issue I ever bought. One of my favorites. I really would have liked to see where Goodwin was going with that book, as his run was really cut way too short.
the weird thing is that it wasn't that she beat Colossus- that made sense, because he was soft hearted enough to leave himself open to attacks. It was more that it was yet another "let's show how cool someone is by having them beat on Wolverine", which never appeals to me, even though I am by no means a Logan fan. still, it was her book, so I understand why. it just didn't impress me.

i wonder if that's how Thanos fans feel after he got whomped by Squirrel Girl

[fishtaco]

-Byrne's Alpha Flight
-Moore's Captain Britain
-Dazzler
-X-Men: The Hellfire Club
-PAD's X-Factor
-Champions
-X-Men: True FriendsGroovy.

Oh, and the Wolverine mini was in 1982. :)

[Mariah]

the weird thing is that it wasn't that she beat Colossus- that made sense, because he was soft hearted enough to leave himself open to attacks. It was more that it was yet another "let's show how cool someone is by having them beat on Wolverine", which never appeals to me, even though I am by no means a Logan fan. still, it was her book, so I understand why. it just didn't impress me.

i wonder if that's how Thanos fans feel after he got whomped by Squirrel Girl
Technically, she only one because Scott intervened, but a win's a win right. It makes sense that even he would be affected by her powers, what with his enhanced senses and stuff. He'd probably be affected the most.

Don't remind me. I'm not at all impressed by the stupidity of squirrel girl.

[xakko]

Technically, she only one because Scott intervened, but a win's a win right. It makes sense that even he would be affected by her powers, what with his enhanced senses and stuff. He'd probably be affected the most.

Don't remind me. I'm not at all impressed by the stupidity of squirrel girl.
heh, i love Squirrel Girl as a foil and spoiler for Rumble boards everywhere.

and yes, Logan would be susceptible to her powers, but he also knows about them, and would take steps to circumvent them. Just as a long time nemesis would.

I would've loved a scene where Klaw, having been absorbed by Dazzler, took over her body. or, even better, was converted to sentient light and became more dangerous.

[spoon_jenkins]

Okay, I choose Dazzler and Byrne's Alpha Flight. Specifically Dazzler 26-34 and the Graphic Novel. And Alpha 13-24.
I wouldn't want to skip ahead in a title unless the reason was extremely compelling. In the case of Alpha Flight, I think it would be much better to start with 1 then to skip ahead to 13. I think it would be good to tackle Alpha Flight 1-12 or AF 1-17 if folks are feeling more ambitious.

[Gene M.]

I'm putting in my vote for Casey and Ladronn's Cable.

[Novaya Havoc]

the first two and one in the 30's where she fights Colossus and Wolverine.

The first two was the original, commissioned plot just bifurcated into two issues. It was deliberately campy.

It really doesn't start to grow legs until about issue 5, and hits its stride by #9.

And #38 was on the end coattails of the series, when they reinvented her.

Hardly the best issues to form an opinion.

[Mariah]

I wouldn't want to skip ahead in a title unless the reason was extremely compelling. In the case of Alpha Flight, I think it would be much better to start with 1 then to skip ahead to 13. I think it would be good to tackle Alpha Flight 1-12 or AF 1-17 if folks are feeling more ambitious.
fine, sigh. Alpha 1-12:evilangry lol, and Dazzler 1-12:D

[Uncle Nobs]

I have no problem with any of those, though there are a few I haven't read.
You dummy, that's the point! :D

[Dizzy D]

You dummy, that's the point! :D

Let me clarify: there are *only* a few I haven't read on that list.

[YummiYami]

i know this is weird but if you go to the library are they updated with the x-men comics? or do they just have old issues? im just confused since my mom is kinda upset of me buying the comics if im just gonna read them not collect them. x_x..

[Uncle Nobs]

i know this is weird but if you go to the library are they updated with the x-men comics? or do they just have old issues? im just confused since my mom is kinda upset of me buying the comics if im just gonna read them not collect them. x_x..
Hi Yummi.

Most libraries don't have individual issues. Even the ones that do carry individual issues can't stay up-to-date. It would be too expensive for them.

Most libraries have collected editions like trade paperbacks (TPBs) and digests. They also carry original graphic novels (OGNs).

And I agree. That's really weird that your mom would be upset with you for reading instead of wasting money on "collecting" when most comics are almost entirely without value as collectibles.

Reading is good for you. Wasting money is not. But I digress...

[YummiYami]

well it is my money afterall. BUt my brother gets upset when i bring comics home he gets angry and i hate it since i cant buy what i want to buy..BUt i never been so happy buying comics i go to the store and the comic store people are sooo nice i went their yesterday and i went out the door freakn happy! lol and i havent felt that happy for a long time.. I HATE reading all i can read is unfortunate events by LS which his series just ended (his last book came out today) and just magazine, but x-men comics im serious i hhave soooooooooo much fun reading them. i been bringing a issue to school everyday.. and i been reading it all on ssr time which is 20minutes. My mom just thinks its expensive but shhee is really happy that im buying comics instead of some useless thing. She said whatever it takes if ur gonna read read, but if they have it on libaries she wants me to get them their. ANd most of the comics i like are the recent ones but i know il have to go and check out the old x-mens.

[Uncle Nobs]

Check the first post (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3453070&postcount=1), kids. I did a little advance planning today.

Still plenty of room for suggestions for our odd months. :D

[Uncle Nobs]

Let me clarify: there are *only* a few I haven't read on that list.
Me read smart someday.

[spoon_jenkins]

Check the first post (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3453070&postcount=1), kids. I did a little advance planning today.

Still plenty of room for suggestions for our odd months. :D
Very cool! :D

Gotta get me some Cable. And I'm looking forward to reading road trip X-Force for the first time. It's nice that we're covering a lot in December 2006 instead of stopping in the middle of an important storyline.

The X-Men Annuals have been reprinted, although not individually (like Classic X-Men does with issues of Uncanny). All of the Annuals that have been assigned have been reprinted in Essentials. Annuals #3 and 4 have been reprinted in Marvel Masterworks volumes. Annual #3 has been reprinted in the Danger Room Battle Archives TPB (which also reprints Annuals #10 and 17, New Mutants Annual #2, and a Hulk Annual #7 in which Iceman and Angel guest star.

[fishtaco]

X-Men: Old Soldiers reprints New Mutants (1st Series) Annuals #'s 2-3 and Uncanny X-Men Annual (1st Series) #11.

[Uncle Nobs]

Hola amigos y recepción al Cuarto del Peligro!

Just a reminder that this Saturday we open conversation on the current assignment.

If you haven't already, be sure to check the first post of this thread, where our next assignment has been posted.

[spoon_jenkins]

Where is everybody? :eek: Well, I'll post some of my thoughts.

Uncanny X-Men #106-119 was a great reading. After feeling the characters out for a while in the previous Uncanny assignment, I feel Claremont has really built momentum here. The new X-Men (Storm, Wolverine, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Banshee) are solidifying who they are. Even though Wolverine still takes his lumps, but he's more a contributer to the team. Yet he's not an annoyingly dominating the book. All the characters have things to do. I don't feel favorites are played. A character will be wrong one time and right another. Even though Byrne wasn't a big Nightcrawler fan, I think Kurt's handle very well. A great example of depicted him in both art and scripting is page 10 of Classic #22. I love how he moves up in the rafters in panel 2. Then, in the bottom panel, you really see Kurt's personality when, in his thoughts, he fears a long distance 'port, but with bravado he says, "Watch me."

Byrne does some great stuff. His first issue seems kinda weak as far as flow, background art, etc., but then it really picks up. I love the effect of showing the telepathic link up on p. 13 of Classic #19 with the faces of the X-Men. Byrne does a lot of great stuff with splash pages. The two page spread of Wolvie attacking Sauron at the start of Classic #21 is unbelievable. The Savage Land arc give him lots of chances to shine (the "Welcome to the Savage Land" panel in #20, the title page in #22, etc.).

The Shadow King story is an interesting interlude, although I'm not nearly as big an SK fan as Claremont and others. The splash page of Xavier's face with flashbacks on p. 6 is great, and it's cool to learn his backstory. Interestingly, though, Chuck is apologizing to Moira for hurting her in Uncanny #106, but then we find she dumped him. I guess CC changed his mind.

The Moses Magnum story is pretty good, even though I don't think it's considered significant. I feel the Colossus feels like a weak link subplot was a bit contrived, because he didn't seem to be messing up until he mentioned it. I'm a fan of the old school, but #23-25 actually has something I'd like to see retconned away. Namely, it defies belief that Misty Knight meets Jean in #23 and then the other X-Men in #24, and they don't compare notes to find out Jean and the others mistakenly believe each other is dead. It's gotta come up in conversation, probably within the first few sentences. Of course, that subplot is also much more 1979 than it is 2006. With email and cell phones, the confusion would be cleared up much quicker.

Interesting that CC makes Wolvie have so much willpower than the other X-Men in the new Mesmero back-up, but back in the day, he's the one Sauron hypnotized. I think I like the weaker Wolvie better.

Some things I had forgotten until rereading:
1) The flashback to the end of the Shi'ar on p. 4 in #16. That clears things up because it was wrapped up too quickly.
2) And on the next page, Moira clears up what happened to Havok and Polaris. That had always bugged me; I was wondering how they got freed.
3) Something else I forgot again.

The Starjammers are great in their first arc. They seem very, dare I say, edgy. I like the disdain they show for the Empire. Raza and Ch'od are very cool.

Just to divide stuff up, I'll focus on the new materials in a second post. :p

[spoon_jenkins]

Sort of like with the first batch of Uncanny issues, I tend to dislike a lot of the new pages that were inserted into the old stories, but I'm more receptive to the all new back-ups. I think stuff like the inserted two-page spreads of all the X-Men thinking in #14 and #18 really hurt the flow of the original stories and slow things down. Plus, it's kind of jarring with differences in art (and scripting, as CC has become more wordy).

My favorite inserted pages are the flashback in #20 that shows how the X-Men tunneled from Magneto's base to the Savage Land. I think it really helps the story and seems to maintain the tone. Maybe because it's a flashback the art difference isn't so jarring.

There are a number of back-up stories I both like and dislike. I like Jean in the forest with Banshee and Wolvie, but I find the retcon of Wolvie being the sage and Jean's good pal a bit annoying. I love Nightcrawler distracting Jean.

I don't like how CC made Jean so vulnerable in both #17 and #24. Like Jean would go for that corny loser in #24 even if he is Mastermind. But I do like the #17 story in some ways, partly for Mesmero's characterization.

The Banshee and Nightcrawler solo stories are very cool. I think I like the Banshee story better of the two.

I like how both the L'ilandra story and the Starjammers story fleshed things out. They both have flaws though. The Lil story has CC going a bit overboard with his prose IMO. The Starjammers story is good (I like that part of the Summers backstory a lot), but I think his characterization of Corsair is troublesome. If Corsair is supposed to become the leader of the Starjammers (not just a member), I think he'd have to be more impressive than that.

As offbeat and unusual as it is, I really love the Storm vs. the polluting company story in #20. Nice tone to it. I prefer it to the other Storm story. The Peter-Nereel relationship is handled well in #21.

I think the Wolverine and the hunter story in #25 is the first non-CC back-up. Like Nocenti in general, it's a hit-and-miss. The tone and story are nice, but it feels a bit too political. Plus, I'm not sure Wolvie doing side jobs at that point feels like it fits.

Art Adams does some nice covers. My favorite frontispiece is the sleeping mother and baby Ankylosaurs in #21. That's one cute! :D

[Uncle Nobs]

Sorry, guys. Busy with work. I'll jump in soon.

Good to see Spoon's keeping things moving along.

[fishtaco]

Sorry, guys. Busy with work. I'll jump in soon.

Good to see Spoon's keeping things moving along.Me too. I hope to write a huge post on all this soon. I'm so busy with college stuff!! :(

Okay, hopefully I'll have enough time for this. The assignment was Uncanny X-Men #'s 106, 109-119, Classic X-Men #'s 14-25, right?

In the Uncanny X-Men issues, the new characters (Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Storm, Colossus) begin to become better defined under Claremont/Byrne. Banshee, Cyclops, Phoenix and Professor X also go through more character growth and become better defined. Moira MacTaggert and Lilandra also begin to show more development. Guardian is first introduced in Uncanny X-Men #109, leading out to Uncanny X-Men #'s 120-121, 139-140, and eventually Alpha Flight itself. I liked Byrne's design for James Hudson. Uncanny X-Men #106 plants the seeds for X-Men and The Micronauts. The fight between the original X-Men and the new team was very fun. The visual of the evil Professor X was really cheesy, though. Does anyone know why Claremont was unavailable to do the issue that required a fill-in writer? Not that it was a bad issue (it rocked), I'm just wondering is all.

I agree that Byrne's pencils are kinda inconsistent at first but over time they become stronger. Byrne's art tends to repeat itself often, though. He often seems to use character designs that are similar to those that he had already done. For example, Destiny and Mantra (from the Imperial Guard) look very, very similar. The character Spore from Wolverine (2nd Series) #'s 22-23 looks way too much like the Shadow King. I don't think Byrne is the greatest X-Men artist ever, but I still think he's in the top 10.

A lot of the villains introduced here are great, but the one villain that really set the stage for what I consider to be the best years in X-Men history (that were unfortunately cut short) is the Shadow King. I liked the scene where Professor X enters the club and fights the Shadow King for Storm's freedom. I liked the homage to the scene in Uncanny X-Men #253 where Forge fights the Shadow King for Storm's freedom. Professor X's relationship with Moira MacTaggert is better defined, too. I wish the Shadow King appeared at least once more before his re-awakening in New Mutants (1st Series) #'s 5-6 thanks to Viper and Silver Samurai, although with Professor X around I think that might have been rushing in to things and it would have rushed to the intended Uncanny X-Men #300 climax waaaaayyyyyy too quickly. I guess New Mutants (1st Series) #'s 29-34 is the closest thing to my wish.

Some of the seeds for the Dark Phoenix Saga are planted in Uncanny X-Men #110, where Warhawk plants a bug in the X-Men's mansion that later allows the Inner Circle to locate several mutants, including Shadowcat, Dazzler, Firestar, Sunspot, Cannonball, Mirage, Jetstream, Empath, Roulette, Catseye, Warpath, Cypher (sorta) and Tarot. I didn't much like Warhawk himself, but the fight was cool and the ending still laid out the groundwork regardless.

Uncanny X-Men #114 was fun. It was nice to see Beast coming back to help out. I know it's been done several times, but I like the idea of the X-Men believing each other to be dead. It creates interesting angles and can further character development, and the payoff during the reunions were always exciting.

I really liked a lot of the Classic X-Men backup stories, especially #'s 14 (Lilandra), 15 (Corsair), 16 (Banshee), 19 (Magneto), 22 (Storm), and 24 (Dark Phoenix). John Bolton's art for these stories wasn't as spectacular as that of Jim Lee, Alan Davis or Bill Sienkiewicz's, but it was still clear and pristine. A lot of the shadows and shading were done exceptionally well (especially in #19).

I think Classic X-Men #14 really gave Lilandra much, much more depth. This is the first story where she is the sole character in the spotlight. The focus was totally on her, making it easier to understand her flaws without interference from other characters, whether developed or not, that also might require attention. The story takes place while she is fleeing the Shi'ar Empire (at the time ruled by D'Ken) to Earth to seek the help of Professor X, whom she really doesn't even know yet. Lilandra's memory confusion was similar to that of Rogue's in Uncanny X-Men #182. Lilandra really shined in this 12-page story. Great action scenes, too.

Classic X-Men #15 spotlighted Corsair and how the Starjammers were founded. I thought that Corsair's slave status was somewhat forced, and kind of odd since we didn't see any lasting effects in his chronologically subsequent appearances, such as in Uncanny X-Men #'s 104, 107-108, 154-157, etc (due to what Corsair experienced, there always are lasting effects; just look at Phoenix, Gabrielle Haller and Magneto, or a real-life Holocaust survivor if that isn't convincing enough). Retcons have a knack for being inconsistent, even just a little. I would have also expected Corsair to continue being defiant without the eventual aid of Raza and Ch'od. Otherwise, it was still a good story. I still want to see the scene where the four of them hijack the Starjammer, desposing of the ship's original crew. It would have been cool to see a story where the Starjammers (with the X-Men) find something on the ship that changes things for the better and/or worse. The Starjammer is the size of Manhattan. Claremont may have even had something planned, since this idea was used in X-Men: The End- Heroes and Martyrs. I liked the panel where Ch'od was in Corsair's face, and Corsair's reaction when he woke up looking at Ch'od's face grinning at him. I still would like to know how Raza and Ch'od first met. If X-Men Unlimited (or something similar to it) ever came back, I'd like to see Chris write this tale (I think he's still popular enough for an Unlimited story).

Classic X-Men #16 was all about Banshee. Very cool stuff. Maeve Rourke was interesting. I still wanted to see more of how Banshee and Maeve get married, since the story just ends with her walking out on Tom. In this story, we begin to see the origin of the resentment between Banshee and his cousin, Black Tom. Still, a civilized competition over a girl obviously isn't enough to cause Tom to become the Juggernaut's crime partner (and everything that followed). I realize Fabian Nicieza cleared all this up (nicely) in X-Force (1st Series) #31, but I would like to know the original intended details. Beginning with Uncanny X-Men #254, Claremont begins to delve more into Banshee's history, starting with a mysterious incident with Alysande Stuart (I have some very plausible theories about this, but that's another story). Bob Harras got rid of the Classic X-Men backstories in 1989, but Chris still might have been planning to delve more into Banshee and Black Tom's history in Uncanny X-Men, where Banshee was going to continue to star in after Uncanny X-Men #277. I liked the role of the conflict involving Northern Ireland and Ireland the I.R.A. etc being incorporated into this story. It only makes sense for Banshee to be involved in the conflict. Corrupt cops are also fun. That guy was sick.

[fishtaco]

Classic X-Men #19 was exceptional. Magneto is one of my favorite fictional characters ever, and this issue is certainly a part of why. The issue starts off very satisfying. Magneto kicks the crap out of Nazis who escaped to South America. Obviously, he was in it for revenge. He didn't kill Richter (did he?), but it still reminded me of V For Vendetta. This is the first issue where we begin to see the reason for Magneto's mental instability and flawed logic (such as how the only way mutants could survive is if they rule). The magnetic current has a bad effect on his brain. It's explained again in X-Men (2nd Series) #2 by Moira MacTaggert.

Magneto declares war on humanity at the end of this issue, but only right after he unleashes a huge magnetic burst, killing "Control". Magneto noted at least twice in the issue that the more he uses his powers, the worse the "headaches" get. The death of Isabelle (to spite him for killing Richter) is one of the most agognizing moments of Magneto's life, as Magneto is forced to relive it in Uncanny X-Men #275 (The Path Not Taken), along with the death of Anya and Magda leaving him, and a mysterious encounter with the Shadow King "followed by sick shame at the awful cost of my survival". The first memory was of Anya's death, and the next was Isabelle's death. That's chronological order so far. Does this mean that Magneto's encounter with the Shadow King took place afterwards? I would say yes, since in the flashback Magneto is wearing his costume. In that case, did this encounter take place after this issue and before Uncanny X-Men #1, or after? If after, then did it take place while Magneto was an X-Man, headmaster of the New Mutants and White King of the Hellfire Club, after Magneto left Muir Island and saved Rogue's life (Uncanny X-Men #'s 253, 269)? It's obvious to me that Magneto's headaches are the source of his violent and pessimistic "path".

I still was confused on some things though. "Control"? One person? More than one person? A group? Was Magneto part of "Control" since he was bringing Nazis to justice? What nationality were/was Control? They obviously weren't Russian, were they? German, but not Nazis? Magneto mentioned that the Nazis captured are sent to Israel for trial, so was Control Israeli or Jewish? If so, then why the hell would they/he ally with the Nazis to fight the Russians? Why didn't Magneto make indication of his hatred for the Soviets when Control explained that they are the new enemy? Not that he'd in a million years be willing to work with the Nazis to kill Soviets, but still. Also, what ended up happening to Richter? Did Magneto kill him, or send him to Israel (if so, then how could have have done so without Control knowing about it?)?

More later...

[spoon_jenkins]

The fight between the original X-Men and the new team was very fun. The visual of the evil Professor X was really cheesy, though. Does anyone know why Claremont was unavailable to do the issue that required a fill-in writer? Not that it was a bad issue (it rocked), I'm just wondering is all.
I think writers, just like artists, don't necessarily have the time to work on a fill-in. He probably had a full workload. In the letter pages, CC mentions that he was an associate editor at the time Mantlo wrote it, so he probably had plenty of stuff on his plate. Plus, he said it was written two years before (meaning 1975, the start of his tenure as write), so CC probably had it hard enough trying to getting his footing.

I wish the Shadow King appeared at least once more before his re-awakening in New Mutants (1st Series) #'s 5-6 thanks to Viper and Silver Samurai,
But it kind of interesting to bring back a very obscure character from Xavier's past as a big villain rather than building him up over time, just because that's more unexpected.

I didn't much like Warhawk himself, but the fight was cool and the ending still laid out the groundwork regardless.
Although both fill-in art issues (#106 and #110) had good stuff, I think they were weaker than the norm. I didn't find Warhawk too compelling. It didn't make sense to meet that Iron Fist could defeat Warhawk by himself, yet the guy gives the X-Men a hard time.


Here's something I noticed (and forgot to mention in my earlier posts). I mentioned during our first Uncanny assignment that in seemed like CC was developing a Cyclops-Nightcrawler friendship early on, but as the years went on, it really wasn't followed through on. Well, there's another example in this assignment. In #109, Scott is worried about Jean's transformation into Phoenix and Kurt tries to act as his confidante.

[fishtaco]

I think writers, just like artists, don't necessarily have the time to work on a fill-in. He probably had a full workload. In the letter pages, CC mentions that he was an associate editor at the time Mantlo wrote it, so he probably had plenty of stuff on his plate. Plus, he said it was written two years before (meaning 1975, the start of his tenure as write), so CC probably had it hard enough trying to getting his footing.That explains it, then. Thanks.

But it kind of interesting to bring back a very obscure character from Xavier's past as a big villain rather than building him up over time, just because that's more unexpected.Well, I think it depends on the villain. The Shadow King is millenia old. He's the archtype manipulative villain. The only limit to his ambitions is his imagination. Thus, I think for the Shadow King's return, it was better to build things up very, very slowly. That's his style. I think that the Shadow King was manipulating and steering the world towards a race-war from very, very early on in Claremont's run. We readers did not notice it yet. There was often going to be hints that there was more than meets the eye to past events. I think Mastermind was a puppet of the Shadow King. I see so much pointing in that direction. In any case, I think Claremont was doing the long-term buildup while at the same time keeping things unexpected...if that makes any sense.

Although both fill-in art issues (#106 and #110) had good stuff, I think they were weaker than the norm. I didn't find Warhawk too compelling. It didn't make sense to meet that Iron Fist could defeat Warhawk by himself, yet the guy gives the X-Men a hard time.When did Iron Fist fight Warhawk?

Here's something I noticed (and forgot to mention in my earlier posts). I mentioned during our first Uncanny assignment that in seemed like CC was developing a Cyclops-Nightcrawler friendship early on, but as the years went on, it really wasn't followed through on. Well, there's another example in this assignment. In #109, Scott is worried about Jean's transformation into Phoenix and Kurt tries to act as his confidante.You mean when Scott was looking out the window at Jean showing off her powers to her parents? I've noticed this, too. I guess it got dropped over the time Claremont and Byrne were collaborating.

[Brian M.]

Do you think the Scott/Kurt friendship was trying to be built up to replace the one Scott and Beast had?

[spoon_jenkins]

When did Iron Fist fight Warhawk?
Iron Fist fought Warhawk in Marvel Premiere #23. The issue is reprinted in the Essential Iron Fist TPB. The TPB may be of interest to X-Men fans because the second half of the TPB is done by Claremont/Byrne and it includes both an X-Men guest appearance and Sabretooth's first appearance.

[spoon_jenkins]

Do you think the Scott/Kurt friendship was trying to be built up to replace the one Scott and Beast had?
I think it would've be a similar dynamic to some extent. The problem is that Scott had been set up as the teacher/boss/etc. to the other X-Men. How are you going to develop an emotional bond between Scott and any of the new characters? This becomes especially important when you separate the team from Xavier and Jean, and it's important to have Scott interacting with someone just as a leader. Ororo, Piotr, and Logan had developed into the characters they would become. Kurt comes across at this point as the most mature and thoughtful of the new X-Men (and most able to relate to Scott). He seems like a guy who'd notice when Scott needs a friend to talk to. Kurt wouldn't merely just butt heads with Scott (like Logan) or defer to him as a leader (like Piotr).

BTW, my thoughts on the Scott/Kurt friendship from the first reading assignment are in post #105.

UTVol, if you've read the assignment (or after you are going to read it now), feel free to post your thoughts. This thread could certainly use more participants.

[DDM]

Although both fill-in art issues (#106 and #110) had good stuff, I think they were weaker than the norm. I didn't find Warhawk too compelling. It didn't make sense to meet that Iron Fist could defeat Warhawk by himself, yet the guy gives the X-Men a hard time.

John Byrne was against Phoenix joining the X-Men. However, when Byrne needed to find his feet, Uncanny X-Men #110 with guest penciler Tony Dezunga (sp?) gave Chris Claremont enough room for Phoenix to officially rejoin the X-Men, although Phoenix would be separated from the other X-Men by the end onf Uncanny X-Men #113.

Chris Claremont said the fill-in for Uncanny X-Men #106 was planned well in advance, but the guest artist fill-in for Uncanny X-Men #110 was a rush assignment. John Byrne needed a guest artist until he found his feet by Uncanny X-Men #111. Chris Claremont & John Byrne were working on Marvel Team-Up & the previously cancelled Iron Fist.

[DDM]

can I pick the next reading assignment please nobs!!!!???!!! Longshot was too fricken boring, I had to drop it mid issue 2.

Longshot #1-3 are abstract, but comes together by Longshot #4-6. The climactic battle between Longshot vs Spiral & Mojo in Longshot #6 is good. However, the hopeful ending is diminished when Longshot appears amnesiac in Uncanny X-Men Annual #10. Mojo won the war on Mojo World given how easily he controls Longshot when Longshot believes he has free will...

[Uncle Nobs]

Sorry I've been gone, everyone. Had some personal issues that needed my attention and I have limited access to kompyewtors.

I'll be chiming in with my thoughts on October's assignment soon. Don't forget to check the first post for details on November's assignment (Alpha Flight & Ladronn's Cable).

Meanwhile, don't let this thing die without me! :)

[Uncle Nobs]

Here we are at November 8th, and I'm STILL catching up! Here are my thunks so far:




X-Men #106:
Sorry to start my feedback on such a sour note, but this issue straight-up sucked. No wonder they didn't reprint it in Classic X-Men. The high point of the issue was Wolverine doing modern dance over a laser beam. It felt like the writer had been forced to write a story that grounded the series in classic X-lore because someone was worried the big changes in the title might be causing them to lose fans of the classic team. I don't know why Claremont was credited at all. It seems like Mantlo wrote the whole thing. It's also interesting to note that several issues describe Lilandra as being telepathic. Strange that this has never (?) been followed up on.

I like the idea of Xavier's fever-dream causing him to subconsciously project telepathic images, but the way it was done was weak. Sensationalist crap. He had no subconscious reason to try to kill the new X-Men, nor did he have any reason to make the old X-Men such pricks. If they wanted to play on Xavier's fears and weaknesses while he was overcome by his dreams, they should have had Xavier project images of the old team dying, the new team leaving him, the alien images he'd been flooded with, etc. The "Evil Xavier" they used is just a retarded excuse for a villain-of-the-month. Sorry. Moving on...




X-Men #107:
Is D'Ken a pimp? Because that outfit is dope! I'm-a get me some green metal sleeves, a web cape, a scarab tunic, a feather goatee, and a tiara!!

I like how the X-Men are being pushed into new frontiers--literally. Everything about the series is saying these aren't your father's X-Men. Taking the "strangest heroes of all" thing even further. I used to have a real aversion to "Mutants in Space" stories, but over the last few years, I've developed an appreciation for it.

The X-Men attack the Imperial Guard needlessly, unfortunately. Kind of a comic cliche, but I suppose it's forgivable since they're on edge from fighting nonstop for several days straight. Cool how Nightcrawler had to push himself to teleport Lilandra away from the Soul-Drinker, never having done that before. Even more interesting that he displays superhuman strength again. Really, these early issues establish it pretty clearly. Marvel might as well make it part of his power set.

An early glimpse of Wolvie going native. I remember fans seemed to react to him slashing his way through an army of aliens and then stealing Fang's costume.

We've never seen Davon Shakari's face, and this issue hints that he may have a connection to Lorna.

Astra's hot.

The Imperial Fleet is a direct nod to Star Trek, the Imperial Guard resembles the Legion of Superheroes, and the Starjammers--a ragtag group of rebels fighting a galactic empire--are introduced in October of 1977, 5 months after Star Wars is released. Coincidence?

I dig how Corsair and Hepzibah seem to be in the middle of a spat when they arrive.




Classic X-Men #14:
Not exactly a revealing glimpse into Lilandra's character, but a revealing glimpse into what actually happened between her and Charles. Love at first telepathic rapport, I suppose.

I like how she loses her identity and how she rages against the whole thing. Good to see some sense of individualism there. She's always been portrayed as too passive, if you ask me. I'd like to see her character explored further.




X-Men #108:
John Byrne starts his run with an over the top cameo by Jimmy Carter and Janet Van Dyne throwing a hissy fit. Nice.

Jahf's orbital punch seemed like a way of satisfying the fans that were annoyed with Wolvie as the obnoxious upstart, giving him his long-deserved comeuppance.

It occurs to me that this story is pretty out-there. Here again, we've got Claremont and partner pushing the X-Men in totally new directions, touching on spirituality in comparing the X-Men to the tree of life and Phoenix to Tiphareth. I still wonder where CC was going with that. The issue worked well enough, even if the plot was a bit simplistic and the denouement a bit quick and tidy.




Classic X-Men #15:
Kinda seemed like a story meant to provide continuity and answer some questions. I know more about the 'Jammers and Corsair now, but it didn't feel particularly inspired, much like last issue's Lilandra story.




X-Men #109:
Cool issue. Good contrast to the previous year of being on the road and in space. I like the scene where Scott's brooding and especially how (if I'm not imagining it) he resembles Xavier in his steepling fingertips, glowering self-involvement, and even the window frames creating reflections of X's in his glasses. Nice touch by Byrne. Of course, I loved seeing Kurt as the one to try and reach him, always concerned about others, always attuned to their emotional state, fearless in his ability to speak up regardless of whether or not it's "his place" to do so. Can learn a lot from that guy.

Seems like Claremont was still toying with the idea of pairing up Ororo & Pete. That's quite a half-naked scene there, with her complaining that she'd rather be entirely nude. Cultural context aside, it's pretty provocative for readers.

I also like how the villain of the story is the P.O.V. we get. We're privy to his thoughts and they serve to humanize him, portraying him as a guy doing his job even though his words and actions would lead us to different conclusions.




Classic X-Men #16:
I like the dueling cousins thing and I like the atmosphere, but there could have been more substance to this story. I always dig stuff about Sean's early life, though, so I'm always left wanting more. It's part of the reason I wasn't too upset with his recent death. I usually have more interest in flashback Banshee stories than current ones, and now that's all anyone can deliver (for a while, anyway).




I'll be back for more soon. I still have to catch up on your posts, too.

[spoon_jenkins]

X-Men #106:
Sorry to start my feedback on such a sour note, but this issue straight-up sucked. No wonder they didn't reprint it in Classic X-Men. The high point of the issue was Wolverine doing modern dance over a laser beam. It felt like the writer had been forced to write a story that grounded the series in classic X-lore because someone was worried the big changes in the title might be causing them to lose fans of the classic team. I don't know why Claremont was credited at all. It seems like Mantlo wrote the whole thing. It's also interesting to note that several issues describe Lilandra as being telepathic. Strange that this has never (?) been followed up on.

I like the idea of Xavier's fever-dream causing him to subconsciously project telepathic images, but the way it was done was weak. Sensationalist crap. He had no subconscious reason to try to kill the new X-Men, nor did he have any reason to make the old X-Men such pricks. If they wanted to play on Xavier's fears and weaknesses while he was overcome by his dreams, they should have had Xavier project images of the old team dying, the new team leaving him, the alien images he'd been flooded with, etc. The "Evil Xavier" they used is just a retarded excuse for a villain-of-the-month. Sorry. Moving on...
When I re-read the two fill-in issues (#106 and #110), I liked them more than I had previously. But I agree that #106 is much weaker than the rest of the issues. I agree that Evil Xavier manifestation didn't make sense because it didn't seem to reflect aspects of his mind. Claremont was credited because he wrote the framing sequence and I think he also scripted the issue. I think Mantlo just plotted it, and it was sitting around unscripted.

Anyway, the X-Men guest appearance in Iron Fist #15 is more like a genuinely X-Men comic than #106 is.

X-Men #107:
[snip]
The X-Men attack the Imperial Guard needlessly, unfortunately. Kind of a comic cliche, but I suppose it's forgivable since they're on edge from fighting nonstop for several days straight.
Why would you say they fought needlessly? Maybe I'm forgetting things, but I thought the Imperial Guard were D'Ken loyalists here. I'm guessing most or all of them didn't grasp the consequences of D'Ken's plan, but that doesn't mean they be willing to listen to and believe the claims of outworlders about D'Ken.


X-Men #108:
[snip]
The issue worked well enough, even if the plot was a bit simplistic and the denouement a bit quick and tidy.
I agree. The conclusion was too quick. My theory is that Claremont and/or Byrne wanted to wrap up the storyline in #108, but the early part of the issue ended up taking more pages to tell than they anticipated. Thus, they were forced to give the ending short shrift instead of being more detailed. To me, the flashback in #109 suggests they couldn't fit everything they wanted to into #108.

X-Men #109:
[snip]
I also like how the villain of the story is the P.O.V. we get. We're privy to his thoughts and they serve to humanize him, portraying him as a guy doing his job even though his words and actions would lead us to different conclusions.

Yeah, that's a nice touch. That fits with Byrne's statements that Weapon Alpha (Hudson) wasn't supposed to be a bad guy and he was surprised when some fans took him to be one. But even though Hudson doesn't come across as eeevil, he still seems like a jerk here.

[Uncle Nobs]

Why would you say they fought needlessly? Maybe I'm forgetting things, but I thought the Imperial Guard were D'Ken loyalists here. I'm guessing most or all of them didn't grasp the consequences of D'Ken's plan, but that doesn't mean they be willing to listen to and believe the claims of outworlders about D'Ken.
Sure, the X-Men wound up being on the right side of that mess, but when they first arrived, they went all, "Where are we? Oh look! People in tights! Get 'em!" The rationale for it came later.

I agree. The conclusion was too quick. My theory is that Claremont and/or Byrne wanted to wrap up the storyline in #108, but the early part of the issue ended up taking more pages to tell than they anticipated. Thus, they were forced to give the ending short shrift instead of being more detailed. To me, the flashback in #109 suggests they couldn't fit everything they wanted to into #108.
Eezatly my impression. 'Cept I woulda said it with a Flemish accent. Classy, y'know?

[Uncle Nobs]

Hello? ...Hello? ...Hello?

Was it something I said? :confused:



Well, if anyone's still playing, we've got Byrne's Alpha Flight and Casey & Ladronn's Cable due Tuesday. Hope to see everyone here. :)

[Mikl C]

Are they available as a digest or something I can buy online? I'd like to play but I get confused.

[Sentinel K]

F***!!

I could have got LOADS of Byrne's Alpha Flight today!

But I didn't. Cos i didn't know about this.

Haven't been able to any of these yet. :(

[DDM]

Are they available as a digest or something I can buy online? I'd like to play but I get confused.

Classic X-Men #1-44 reprints Giant Size X-Men #1 & Uncanny X-Men #94-138 with new material with original covers & a new backstory. Early issues of Classic X-Men #1-30 feature "deleted scenes" originally cut in the book's original printing.

[Uncle Nobs]

Classic X-Men #1-44 reprints Giant Size X-Men #1 & Uncanny X-Men #94-138 with new material with original covers & a new backstory. Early issues of Classic X-Men #1-30 feature "deleted scenes" originally cut in the book's original printing.
DDM makes a point. Feel free to jump in on assignments from previous months. (Hell, I'm still catching up, myself.)

For the current assignment, though, neither Byrne's Alpha Flight nor Casey & Ladronn's Cable are available as reprints. But fret not! Plenty of sites sell them super-cheap. :)

[Uncle Nobs]

I just borrowed Alpha Flight #1-12 from a friend. FREEEEE!

He also bought me Black Kiss & American Flagg, and he loaned me the entire run of Preacher. ...But that's off-topic. I just like to brag.

Man, I still need to pick up the Cable issues and it's only 2 days until conversation opens on the current assignment! Are you guys ready?

[Uncle Nobs]

It's the 21st, which means the school for fools is open once again!

Alpha Flight: Love it? Hate it? Relevant? Dated?

Cable: Could Cable-haters appreciate the retro approach? Did it work? Any surprises?

GO!

[fishtaco]

Alpha Flight (1st Series) #1 was a great first issue. I liked how it started off with a very misfortunate event and by the end of the issue it was resolved as the team reformed, independent of government employment. We finally got to see a much more complex Northstar, Aurora, Shaman, Sasquatch and others. Snowbird and Guardian also shined in this issue. Marrina and Puck were both introduced for the first time too. I didn't like Puck too much in this issue. He was too much of an asshole and he blew things out of proportion. Also, most of the cliches in the dialogue were scenes that revolved around Puck. This is definitely one of the best Northstar issues. Pages 8-11 were very well written and illustrated. I realize that Heather was prominent throughout the issue, but I would have liked to see her in a less mundane role prior to James's death in Alpha Flight (1st Series) #12. Still, she was fun to read about. I enjoyed the fight between Alpha and Tundra, one of the Great Beasts. John Byrne's art didn't lose it's edge after leaving Uncanny X-Men. Too bad that now he's...well, John Byrne...

[DDM]

Alpha Flight (1st Series) #1 was a great first issue. I liked how it started off with a very misfortunate event and by the end of the issue it was resolved as the team reformed, independent of government employment. We finally got to see a much more complex Northstar, Aurora, Shaman, Sasquatch and others. Snowbird and Guardian also shined in this issue. Marrina and Puck were both introduced for the first time too. I didn't like Puck too much in this issue. He was too much of an asshole and he blew things out of proportion. Also, most of the cliches in the dialogue were scenes that revolved around Puck. This is definitely one of the best Northstar issues. Pages 8-11 were very well written and illustrated. I realize that Heather was prominent throughout the issue, but I would have liked to see her in a less mundane role prior to James's death in Alpha Flight (1st Series) #12. Still, she was fun to read about. I enjoyed the fight between Alpha and Tundra, one of the Great Beasts. John Byrne's art didn't lose it's edge after leaving Uncanny X-Men. Too bad that now he's...well, John Byrne...


The man who resurrected Tundra is actually Narya's biological father (time passed differently in the Realm of Northern Gods; therefore, when he returned on Earth years later, his mind snapped). You'll have to read Narya's origin in latter issues of Alpha Flight to understand the poor man's state of mind. However, Narya was raised by Shaman since he played an important role in Narya's birth.

[fishtaco]

Anyone know why Byrne killed off Snowbird? Not that it was a good or bad decision or anything.

[Uncle Nobs]

Man, I tell you what... With the holidays and all, I think we could all use a break. I know I need to save my scratch for gifts and such.

So let's take December off and reconvene in the new year. Give us all some time to catch up or just focus on higher priorities. Maybe we'll even get some new blood up in here.

As usual, I'll update the assignments on the first page.

[DDM]

Anyone know why Byrne killed off Snowbird? Not that it was a good or bad decision or anything.

Bill Mantlo killed off Snowbird. Byrne left the book in Alpha Flight #28. Mantlo was trying to get most or all of the original Alpha Flight exised from the team. Mantlo's team came together by Alpha Flight #51 with Box II, Vindictator II (Heather Hudson), Sasquatch II (Walter Langowski in Snowbird's body now calling herself Wanda), Purple Girl (Purple Man's mutant daughter), plus a few other lesser members.

[Uncle Nobs]

Welcome back, buckos! I hope everyone enjoyed their break.

I wanted to check in with our participants and feel things out, see where everyone is.

Do we need time for people to catch up? Are folks still interested? Are you happy with how this is progressing? If you're sliding into home and you feel a bunch of foam, what is it?

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

Hey NObs long time no see, IM or PM me, we can ketch up, anyhow, can we do some of the new xmen, like 114-whatever, or something like that? What do you think?

[Uncle Nobs]

Hey NObs long time no see, IM or PM me, we can ketch up, anyhow, can we do some of the new xmen, like 114-whatever, or something like that? What do you think?
Note sure about that, S_G. To me, it seems to go against the concept of the thread. Morrison's run is still very fresh in many readers' minds. I think we're looking for older or at least more overlooked work. Sorry to shoot that one down.

What about the rest of you? Should we proceed as planned? Are you still in? Do you still think I'm as pretty as the day we met?

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

What about the Age of Apocalipse? We can have that as our 4 month arc?

[Shane Shooter]

I Miss this Thread Hey Uncle Nobs Hit Us with a New Assignment !