Batman: The Dark Knight Returns

[Wibbles]

Is The Dark Knight Returns one of the best Batman GN or not?

[literally exaggerated]

Most influential, certainly. Most controversial, possibly. Best? Depends on who you ask, and generally on whether they liked the last 20 years of Batman comics at all. If they did, as I did, then very probably they loved DKR. If not, there's a good chance they hate it.

[The Foreigner]

If not, there's a good chance they hate it.

Which is silly, because you should judge a story on it's own merits, not based on what influences it had afterwards.

I love The Dark Knight Returns; definitely among my favorite comic book stories. Can't wait for the Absolute edition, later this year.

[Wibbles]

thanks already on its way.

[Jeff F]

I thought it was a bit dull and couldn't figure out why Batman would stop being Batman.

Other people like it alot though.

[KittyPryde]

I really liked it (especially at the time it was first released). Too say it is THE best is probably an overstatement; but I would say it should appear on a list of the best. You most likely won't be sorry when you read it.

[The Foreigner]

couldn't figure out why Batman would stop being Batman.


"I gave my word. For Jason. Never. Never again."

I thought it was pretty clear.

[sleepingawake198]

lol yeah i thought so 2, stopped because jason died right?(or became the hood or watever idk?) but yeah i havent readthat much batman but dark knight returns is just amazing, i dnt know how to say it any other way i just loved everythign about it i loved the darkness, i loved batmans attitude in it hes not like a dick or anytingh but when it comes to criminals he has liek the whole i dont care if they die attitude, just anything so that thre will be justice, idk i just think its my favorite protrayl of batman ever, but idk lol some people dont like it, but id say yeah its good

[jsg2295]

A great read...not even DKR2 could kill it.

[the goddamn batman]

Most influential is more appropriate than best. For it's time? Yeah, it and Watchmen. Now? I think Franks done better, and so have others. But, without DKR, who knows. On the shoulders of giants, right?

I love it. I think it's bad ass. I remember the first time I read it... it changed everything.

[Jeff F]

"I gave my word. For Jason. Never. Never again."

I thought it was pretty clear.

That would be a good reason to not have another Robin. The Batman as I see him wouldn't give up the fight. I would think Jason's death would reinforce his mettle.

[dancj]

I can't think of a better graphic novel. I'm not saying there isn't one, but for my tastes it beats everything else - except possibly Batman Year One

Maybe Grant Morrison's Animal Man run would have a chance if the art (in Animal Man) was better.

[joe bloke]

I thought it was pretty cool, in it's day. I think Killing Joke - slim as it was - beat it hands down, though. Still, I guess it's down to the individual, isn't it? I remember hating Arkham Asylum with a vengeance - still do - though I'm assured by many that it's a classic.

[glue]

I'm not a big fan of DKR. My favorite Batman story is THE LONG HALLOWEEN.

[Lord Paradise]

Dark Knight Returns, I would say, is my favorite comic of all time. (But then again, I'm currently halfway through reading Watchmen, and it's already second). I haven't read DK2 yet, I've heard it was OK but not as great, and Year One was great but not as great as DKR.

I don't think it was all because of Jason, anyway. It seemed to me that with all the trouble with the government, Superman ripping off Green Arrow's arm or whatever he did, and just him getting old, Bats swore on Jason's grave that he would stop crimefighting. After ten years and a lot of alcohol, maybe he warped his perceptions to think that it was all because of Jason, a moral issue, which he found easier to face than him just giving up.

Is the Absolute Edition going to have more added to it, or just a bunch of special stuff tacked on the end? If it's actually longer, I'll definitely buy it.

Haven't read Killing Joke. Arkham Asylum and Long Halloween were... there. Not the best.

[The Foreigner]

Dark Knight Returns, I would say, is my favorite comic of all time. (But then again, I'm currently halfway through reading Watchmen, and it's already second). I haven't read DK2 yet, I've heard it was OK but not as great, and Year One was great but not as great as DKR.

I don't think it was all because of Jason, anyway. It seemed to me that with all the trouble with the government, Superman ripping off Green Arrow's arm or whatever he did, and just him getting old, Bats swore on Jason's grave that he would stop crimefighting. After ten years and a lot of alcohol, maybe he warped his perceptions to think that it was all because of Jason, a moral issue, which he found easier to face than him just giving up.

Is the Absolute Edition going to have more added to it, or just a bunch of special stuff tacked on the end? If it's actually longer, I'll definitely buy it.

Haven't read Killing Joke. Arkham Asylum and Long Halloween were... there. Not the best.

Miller actually added in the elements of government registration (Which get brought up in issue four) because he was reading Watchmen at the time, and liked the idea so much. Pretty interesting. But yeah, all of those elements definitely led to his retirement, and his final "promise," you could say, to not fight crime came from the death of Jason. Overall, I felt it was pretty believable that he'd end up putting away the mask.

And the Absolute edition will be The Dark Knight Returns and The Dark Knight Strikes Again in one volume. No extra story pages, but it will have all of the extra material included in the previous editions of both books, as well as about 30 extra pages of sketches and other various behind the scenes material.

[The Foreigner]

Oh, and Killing Joke I thought was over-rated (And a little too disturbing for my tastes), Arkham Asylum I thought was mind-numbingly boring, and Long Halloween is simply a fun mystery that I enjoyed a lot.

[ultimatespyder20]

I just recently read Dark Knight Returns in 'The Complete Frank Miller Batman' and I was wondering is this in Batman continuity? I mean in the story Bruce Wayne is like forty or fifty, James Gordon is like seventy and retires, then in the end there is a girl robin, and Bruce Wayne goes into hiding. Now I know in the series right now none of this stuff is going on. James Gordon is not retired, Bruce isn't in hiding, or anything. Now, I'm new to the Batman scene, so just bare with me. So is it?

Alec

[Gargus]

Was the sequel to it as good as the original?

I never read it, only DKR.

[Wibbles]

what are the best batman gn?

[jackups]

No DHR is not in the dc continuity


The sequel is not as good, but still a coll story!

the best ones would have to be
Batman: Year One
Batman:the long hallowean and dark victory!

[The Foreigner]

I just recently read Dark Knight Returns in 'The Complete Frank Miller Batman' and I was wondering is this in Batman continuity? I mean in the story Bruce Wayne is like forty or fifty, James Gordon is like seventy and retires, then in the end there is a girl robin, and Bruce Wayne goes into hiding. Now I know in the series right now none of this stuff is going on. James Gordon is not retired, Bruce isn't in hiding, or anything. Now, I'm new to the Batman scene, so just bare with me. So is it?

Alec

No, the story is not set in regularly continuity. It was released in 1987 as a four issue mini-series.

And to those asking about the sequel, you really need to judge for yourself whether or not you like it. It's absolutely nothing like the original, and takes the characters to bizzarre extremes that most people absolutely hate (Batman is a vicious terrorist who murders with no remorse). The art is extremely sloppy and the coloring is beyond weird, but I still find it enjoyable. Just judge for yourself.

[joe bloke]

You're right, of course, Foreigner, DK2 has to be judged individually. For my own part, I thought it was not only one of the very worst Batman stories I have ever read, but also the very worst thing that Frank Miller has ever produced. I've always liked Miller, and there's not a lot bad that can be said about him and his work ( apart from the usual accusations of sexism and facism, both of which may have SOME backbone to them, but, to be true, I don't think that he's any more sexist or right-wing than any of your average blokes you'd find in any bar ). That said, DK2 reeked of rushed out anniversary cash-in. It was badly thought out, and badly executed. When the book was first released in hardcover, I, like many other fans all over, snapped it up straight away, and felt jipped from page one.

[dancj]

I just recently read Dark Knight Returns in 'The Complete Frank Miller Batman' and I was wondering is this in Batman continuity?

I believe when it came out it was officially a possible future. Since then with TDKSA, Miller's officially created a continuity that's all his own in which (among probably loads of other inconsistencies with the regular DCU) Barry Allen is still The Flash, so it's now firmly planted outside the DCU.

[dancj]

Oh, and Killing Joke I thought was over-rated (And a little too disturbing for my tastes), Arkham Asylum I thought was mind-numbingly boring, and Long Halloween is simply a fun mystery that I enjoyed a lot.

Those are pretty much in line with my thoughts (except the disturbing part). The Killing Joke has a great Joker origin, but the modern day story wrapped round it is pretty weak. Apparantly Alan Moore has said in interview that he doesn't think it's very good.

Arkham Asylum has nice touches (particularly two face) but is a bit up its own arse.

Long Halloween is decent fluff, but not nearly as special as the spectacular art makes you think it is

[dancj]

apart from the usual accusations of sexism and facism, both of which may have SOME backbone to them

Sexist, maybe but there's nothing fascist about Frank Miller. Pretty much every thing he writes is a comedy and he likes to write characters with fascist tendancies, but I believe he's quite left-wing.

[Micro]

Could someone fill me in on what's part of the DKR universe. I know Miller wrote a sequal, and has said that All-Star is in the same universe, but what else is considered part of it.
Miller-Batverse chronological order:
Batman: Year one(is this part of it?)
All-Star Batman and Robin
Dark Night Returns
Dark Night Strikes Agian

[literally exaggerated]

Batman Year One is in regular continuity, and apparently is canon in the all-star/dkr/dksa universe as well, though how that jives with the batshit crazy nut driving around in flying cars in All-star is something I really don't get.

[Darrell D.]

Miller actually added in the elements of government registration (Which get brought up in issue four) because he was reading Watchmen at the time, and liked the idea so much.

Actually, I am pretty sure that what John Byrne has been quoted as believing, I really don't think Miller ever came out and stated he used Watchmen for ideas.

Beyond that, DKR is great. But am I the only person in the world who thinks that DKR2 was a freakin' blast? I just loved it; the art was fun, the coloring bright and the script just oozed parody. I thought it rocked.

Darrell DeWeese

[Mister Mets]

Is The Dark Knight Returns one of the best Batman GN or not?

I'd say it is.
This is not to discount other great Batman stories, but I haven't read a better one.

[Alan2099]

It's decent, but it's not great and I didn't like how it handled Joker or Catwoman at all.

[Micro]

Batman Year One is in regular continuity, and apparently is canon in the all-star/dkr/dksa universe as well, though how that jives with the batshit crazy nut driving around in flying cars in All-star is something I really don't get.

so where will "Holy Terror Batman!!" fit into things I wonder:eek:

[rick]

Yes, Dark Knight Returns is one of, if not the very best Batman story ever published.

[the goddamn batman]

ok, I just need to say that the art in DKSA isn't sloppy or lazy. Frank drew it that way on purpose. He had a specific intent with the art. Lost on most readers? Yeah. I sorta got the vibe and looked into it, turned out he meant it to look 'clunky' I think was the word.

Either way, DKR Watchmen and Arkham are in the same boat for being adult when adult didn't happen in superhero comics. McKeans art alone is enough to keep AA a classic.

[dancj]

Could someone fill me in on what's part of the DKR universe. I know Miller wrote a sequal, and has said that All-Star is in the same universe, but what else is considered part of it.
Miller-Batverse chronological order:
Batman: Year one(is this part of it?)
All-Star Batman and Robin
Dark Night Returns
Dark Night Strikes Agian

Year One is (mostly) official DC continuity, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's also part of the DKR continuity as far as Miller's concerned.

Again it wouldn't surprise me if as far as Miller's concerned ASB+R is in DKR continuity.

He also said when he wrote Batman/Spawn that he considered that to be in the same continuity - though that'll probably never be official

[Gaspard]

'Returns is probably the best comic book I've read along with Watchmen.

[Mutate]

ok, I just need to say that the art in DKSA isn't sloppy or lazy. Frank drew it that way on purpose. He had a specific intent with the art. Lost on most readers? Yeah. I sorta got the vibe and looked into it, turned out he meant it to look 'clunky' I think was the word.

Either way, DKR Watchmen and Arkham are in the same boat for being adult when adult didn't happen in superhero comics. McKeans art alone is enough to keep AA a classic.

Yes. It was influenced by european art. It is cinematic and powerful. And the pacing and panels are amazing, the way he mixes splash pages, leads the eye along with different things happening in the background, etc. The way there is so much going on in the page.

[Panman]

Could someone fill me in on what's part of the DKR universe. I know Miller wrote a sequal, and has said that All-Star is in the same universe, but what else is considered part of it.
Miller-Batverse chronological order:
Batman: Year one(is this part of it?)
All-Star Batman and Robin
Dark Night Returns
Dark Night Strikes Agian
I'm pretty sure Year One isn't part of the DKR universe, as both comics are set during the 80's.
The Batman from the batman/spawn crossover Miller wrote seems like the same Batman from DKR in his attutude and his size (Miller always portrayed Batman as a really big guy). Also notice that he never takes off his mask so its possible that he's the old Batman we see in DKR and DKSB (I vaguely remember Spawn calling him "old man", and Batman mentions that he's been fighting crime a lot longer than Spawn).

[Gary Joyce]

In my opinion the three greatest Batman graphic novels are Year One , The Dark Knight Returns , The Killing Joke.

As for The Dark Knight Strikes Again well its not as bad as some would have you believe the ending is abysmal and makes it seem worse then it actually is.

[Gaspard]

I'm pretty sure Year One isn't part of the DKR universe, as both comics are set during the 80's.
I don't think it says anywhere in either book that it's set in the 80's, does it? Both were written in the 80's and they have the 80's-feel in them, but Batman never happens in a particular year, unless it's an Elseworld tale like ThrillKiller or Nine Lives. That's atleast what I've gathered from reading Batman.

The Killing Joke wasn't nearly as good as DKR, but I actually liked the art, especially how both Batman and Joker are drawn. A story that I liked was the whole Knightfall saga, the only thing that sucked with it was the sequel "Prodigal", in which

***SPOILER*** Dick Grayson becomes Batman (a great idea), only to give the mantle back to Bruce in the end.[/Spoiler]

[dancj]

Both were written in the 80's and they have the 80's-feel in them, [/Spoiler]

Always thought Year One had more of a 40's feel

[Duy]

I've read it three times just to see if I can finally get it, and I can honestly say I absolutely abhor Dark Knight Returns. I despise it with every level of my comic loving being.

Having said that, I wrote a paper on it, Watchmen, and Maus in college, so I actually had to intellectualize the whole thing. In so many ways, on a purely technical level, DKR is an excellent piece of work.

It's just not for everyone, and it's definitely not for me.

[Kara Zor El]

The thing about DKR is that it is very much a part of its time. When it came out I loved it with a vengence. But When i re-read it recently I found it a bit old fashioned and slow. I can still read Watchmen and be totally entertained or Killing Joke for that matter. I still think it's one of the best Bat Grafs because of how it made me feel at the time. Nothing has come close.
I lent it out to some mtes who got into comics recently through The Ultimates. They gave up after the first chapter. Just couldn't get into it at all. I reckon they would have back in the day. They hated all the TV bits, news bulletins and chat show elements. I loved those first time round but also find them tedius now.
I thinjk The Watchmen is the greatest Graphic Novel of all time. It is by far technically superior to DKR and has far more imagination and originallity.

[Gaspard]

I just re-read Year One... man how great it is. I think I'm going to read DKR again tomorrow.

[Magneto_X]

what are the best batman gn?

Batman: Child Of Dreams by Kia Asamiya.

[Kara Zor El]

I just re-read Year One... man how great it is. I think I'm going to read DKR again tomorrow.
Year One is a different kettle of porpois. I can still go back to it and it's never aged for me. a great read. I loved the Catwoman spin off that they did in the early 90's with the same characters and origin. Just more her perspective of that year. It was a 4 parter, I think they went back on it though and retconned it away. Can't have Selina being a prostitute.

[Wibbles]

I've now read it and I thought it was great. I liked the way Frank told a lot of the story through the news and sowing the contriversy of Batman's actions. Great! :)

[Tony Starkz]

This was the first Batman story I read since I was alittle kid.I haven't read anything within the past 15 years tops.

Still,I highly enjoyed DKR.I thought the whole dark and gritty approach worked well within the context of the story.The whole idea of a worn and battered hero returning one last time to save a city which has forgotten him is awesome.

If you get a chance,read Miller's Year One as well.Heck,if you're gonna read Batman's end,might as well read his beginning.Plus it's one hell of a story as well.Both of these belong on any top 10 list.