The end of the "Batman could beat Superman" debate

[Dontfeedphil]

Hi...
Ive been hearing rumors bout the next Superman movie and how it will most likley be a Superman/Batman movie. But I dont remember anyone saying if this story is "Superman verus Batman" or "Superman Teams up with Batman". So whats the deal...

[NMoline]

Hi...
Ive been hearing rumors bout the next Superman movie and how it will most likley be a Superman/Batman movie. But I dont remember anyone saying if this story is "Superman verus Batman" or "Superman Teams up with Batman". So whats the deal...

A Simple google search will show you that this idea has been batted around since Michael Keaton played Batman. There have been many scripts written up, however most reasonable people do not see this movie anytime in the future. Bryan Singer did an interview recently where he said he would prefer to see the Superman character fleshed out a little more before this is attempted. Also, since Batman has restarted I don't see this happening anytime soon. If it ever happens it will be like Alien vs. Predator where both franchises are drained and its for one last effort to milk some money.

[Dontfeedphil]

^^^Good. I wasnt too enthusiastic about them wasting a movie on Supes and Bats. Not that I wouldnt want to see that too. But I like what you just posted about singer would like Superman more fleshed out before that...

[Agentum]

I think both of them will have some more own movies before, and i hope they dont do a VS movie where Batman needs to be the villain in the story.

[Project 22]

Batman vs Superman=stupidest idea ever...I wouldn´t be as angry about a World´s Finest though.

[Ms. M]

I can see this idea being revived in the future, especially if Superman Returns underwhelms globally and if the sequel to Batman Begins that will begin filming soon doesn't do great business.

In any case, I don't think either Superman or Batman would be a villain in a Vs. movie. They would just clash initially over misunderstandings and team up in the end, just like in countless comic book first meetings.

[Dontfeedphil]

What is the difference between Supes vrs Bats and a "world's finest story" I dont understand

[Agentum]

that they may have to have Batman as a villain in the story, the VS means against.

[Project 22]

In World´s Finest, they team up, Batman doesn´t end up the bad guy, as Bryan Singer has eluded to.

Oh...and I saw Superman Returns opening day in Spain...other than the group I went with, the theater was full of crickets.

[BYC]

I don't think it's a good idea to make Superman vs. Batman. Both characters are way too loved to have any real results. The mutual respect thing is kinda cliched and lame at the same time.

I wouldn't want to see them fight at all, just the setup for it would have to be incredibly well written. Most casual fans still know Superman and Batman are friends.

I much rather see a team-up, or even a trinity movie, although it'll be next to impossible to pull off.

[DWEarhart]

Superman vs Batman in movie form works only in personality and dialogue. There's no point in having them trade blows; everyone knows they'll end up as partners anyway.

Let them argue through the entire movie. The one-liners would be great.

[Gernot]

Well, if the heroes were going to trade blows, wouldn't Superman spend 99% of the movie looking for enough of Batman to bury?

[Zanku]

Well, if the heroes were going to trade blows, wouldn't Superman spend 99% of the movie looking for enough of Batman to bury?


Remember this is Batman, so he'd spend 99% of the time helpless against batmans tech, he'd also develop a knack of forgetting about his powers when confronted with Bats as well, thats the only way a batman vs superman could work, in the sense of them going against each other.

I for one would not like to see any type of batman/superman movie, because it makes me think there'd be a lot of batman fanwanking in order to make him have a purpose, batman might be a great detective, but supermans super senses and other powers would make him practically useless, even when exposed to kryptonite

[CaptainAwesome]

I could see a Batman and Superman movie. The problem is that it would have to have a 600 bazillion dollar budget and probably 3 different directors. I mean, it could be done, just not likely. They couldnt be enemies though, and they couldnt do the whole "clash at first then become friends" thing either. They would have to have a mutual respect that blossomed into a friendship. And Darkseid would be the only villian.

[The Foreigner]

I could see a Batman and Superman movie. The problem is that it would have to have a 600 bazillion dollar budget and probably 3 different directors. I mean, it could be done, just not likely. They couldnt be enemies though, and they couldnt do the whole "clash at first then become friends" thing either. They would have to have a mutual respect that blossomed into a friendship. And Darkseid would be the only villian.

Why would their have to be 3 different directors?

[The Foreigner]

I came upon this on another forum and thought it was pretty cool.

http://www.bluetights.net/theplanet/showpost.php?p=411696&postcount=5

When people say: "Batman can kick Superman's ass" they really mean one of three things:

1. I like Batman more and think he can do anything.
2. I think Batman can win a one-sided battle where he's prepared and Superman isn't; and I've read comics like that.
3. I think Batman can beat Superman under specific circumstances, but all things being equal, Superman will almost always win.

With Case 1, there's no arguing with them. With Case 3, I think the individual is reasonable enough and there's no need to force them to say Superman will ALWAYS win unless we're suffering from a bit of Case 1 ourselves, but with a Superman bent. I think a mixture of Case 2 and a little bit of 1 is the predominant viewpoint of people who say it.

The thing is, they typically don't acknowledge the inequality in preparation or technology... it's almost always a contrived circumstance to bring about a Bat-victory by the skin of Bruce's teeth. Even if they do, they put their faith in Batman's preparation and planning (and sometimes technology) to rule the day. The following addresses that (reposted):

Despite the incredibly presistant and wide-spread belief that Batman has a dozen plans up his sleeve to take out Superman, historically it's been proven otherwise again and again. Let's take some examples:

DKR - Bats, after 20 years of planning, gets his ribs broke, his fancy suit torn to shreds, suffers a heart attack, and ends up in the ground. His entire plan relies on Superman holding back and NOT simply unplugging Bruce from his lamp-post or disabling him from space (if Supes really just wanted Bruce to turn himself in, rather than getting into a dangerous fist fight)... in other words, poor writing for Supes (out of character motivation, out of character intellect/tactics), who could have undid the Bat's plan easily.

Hush - Bats breaks his hand & resorts to thug-level hostage tactics, while admiting he doesn't stand a chance. Honestly, he just gets in one good punch (that breaks his hand) shortly after, Supes smashes through the street and effortlessly lifts a car in each hand, no worse for wear. His plan needlessly puts himself at risk and relied entirely on Clark holding back/being good, which he had no logical grounds on which the make that assumption... having a "gut feeling" that Clark can resist mind control does not constitute a good plan.

Red Son - Dies. Despite all his prep, he didn't account for Superman's allies, which he has in spades and certainly on a different power-level than- say- the Bat Family. If anything is true of Supes, it's that he has many friends that would readily risk life and limb for his sake- heck, in the regular universe, Batman considers himself one of that number... any plan meant to take Supes out has to take into account his allies, friends, family, robots, pets, etc.

Babel - Years of planning on how to stop a rogue Superman... result: an expensive synthetic rock that makes Superman MORE powerful (and doesn't even prevent him from using his powers with surgical precision). Wow. Brilliant.

Superman/Batman #2 - Owned. This is in Batman's home turf, the ideal situation to combat Superman and to enact all the theoretical plans his fans have long believed he has against a rogue Superman... but the result? Bruce isn't even Future Supes's target yet he's a breath away from death if not for a save from present-day Supes.

Lex Luthor:Man of Steel - Batman with kryptonite and prep, defeated handily by Superman. Arguably one of the most realistic portrayals of how Supes could still defeat Batman without instantly killing him regardless of Bat-prep.

Superman: King of The World - Batman with prep and kryptonite fails to stop Superman from being able to crush his throat... only with the intervention of Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter is Supes stopped. Here we see danger of Superman with limited prep, the legions of his similarly powered Superman robots.

Sacrifice - Again, Batman, king of protocols, the man entrusted with the Kryptonite ring as a symbol of trust and the express responsibility of stopping Superman should he go rogue by Superman himself... finds himself in said situation and instead of pulling out "always prepared anti-Supes plan" finds himself beaten to near death saved only by the Plot Gods.

Infinite Crisis - After the last beating, you'd think Batman would create more comprehensive plans for taking out Superman and/or Superman-class enemies. Granted Kal-L is probably levels above them, but in terms of Anti-SuperBrick Planning, once again, Bruce fails... his entire defense the Kryptonite ring. Even if it were Kal-El and not Kal-L, it's highly questionable whether the ring alone would have been able to stop a motivated rogue Superman considering Supes has wielded the ring himself when fighting other Super-persons. If Batman were truly the master of planning and prep, this certainly should have been taken into consideration.

Final score: Bat Plans Zip; Supes nine of nine.

The only cases where Batman has been able to possibly get a leg up on Supes are when he has acted like a villain and held hostages or lead an assault against an unsuspecting Supes- hardly a feat (consider: who amongst us, with Batman's fortune and training, intimate knowledge of Superman as an ally, and even express consent from said target, WOULDN'T be able to come up with an attack plan against an unsuspecting Supes?). In any case where Supes has had the opportunity to fight back he has either won or been defeated by bad writing.

Discuss.

[Smarty Jones]

This is pretty much how this throwdown will go down:

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/4518/batmanvssuperman8wx5at.gif

[The Foreigner]

That is priceless. I haven't laughed that hard in a while!

:D

[Damo]

...yeah, that was dumb. Even if I wasn't a Batman fan, that was dumb. It basically relies on "Batman is too dumb to use his computers" to be funny.

[Damo]

Superman: "I've killed your butler and burned down your house. What're you going to do about it?"
Batman: "I bought your movie franchise. You're now a brooding joyless loner, at once a messiah figure while simultaneously a jerk that bails on his girlfriend, mother, and planet, then proceeds to become a stalker. I've convinced an entire generation of children that you're the boring character they already suspected you were, and in a few years the lack of success of this film will be cited as a reason to "update" you in another film. Little Man is beating you in the box office. Also, I told your mom on you for that whole mansion-Butler thing."

[algertman]

As long as we have Bizarro and Batzarro I'm game.

[The Foreigner]

Superman: "I've killed your butler and burned down your house. What're you going to do about it?"
Batman: "I bought your movie franchise. You're now a brooding joyless loner, at once a messiah figure while simultaneously a jerk that bails on his girlfriend, mother, and planet, then proceeds to become a stalker. I've convinced an entire generation of children that you're the boring character they already suspected you were, and in a few years the lack of success of this film will be cited as a reason to "update" you in another film. Little Man is beating you in the box office. Also, I told your mom on you for that whole mansion-Butler thing."

...yeah, that was dumb. Even if I wasn't a Superman fan, that was dumb. It basically relies on "I'm bitter about Superman Returns not being the movie I wish it was" to be funny.

[Constantine Drakon]

...yeah, that was dumb. Even if I wasn't a Superman fan, that was dumb. It basically relies on "I'm bitter about Superman Returns not being the movie I wish it was" to be funny.

Heh. I see what you did there. That was clever. You took his line from earlier in the thread, and then you twisted it around to knock him. That's really a fresh idea, and I can't say I've ever seen it done so well before. Outside of the box thinking. Would you like to whip out any animated gifs to reinforce your point? Or maybe you would like to post this one in the Batman forum as well? It's certainly original enough for it. I'm very grateful, incidentally, for the way that you ended the Batman Superman debate in two different forums. Personally I thought this debate would keep on raging forever, but then one day I open up the forums and there it is: "The End of the Batman could beat Superman debate". In two forums. Guess you showed all those silly writers that disagreed with you. You ended the debate. By posting something you didn't actually write. In the Batman forum and the Superman forum, so that everyone would know that the debate had been ended. Seriously, a round of applause.

Normally I'm not quite so sarcastic, but good grief man, at least craft your own insults. Turning someone else's line against them (and clumsily, I might add) is just sad.

I like both characters equally. But Superman giving Batman a "booger", then burning down his house, while Batman is too stupid to use a computer... I find that an unfunny insult to both characters. It's a joke you can only enjoy, IMHO, if you like Superman so much you hate Batman. The idea of Batman sabotaging Superman in revenge by making the film that made my young comic-loving nephew and neice demand to leave the theatre... I found that funny. Not hysterical, but better than animated Superman handing around boogers.

As for the thread, it's been pointed out often enough but it bears repeating: it's always going to come down to who's writing the story. It really is that simple. The debate isn't going to end any time soon, and any time you see them go after each other in a book, the ending will be determined by which side of the debate the writer is on.

[Smarty Jones]

"I like both characters equally. But Superman giving Batman a 'booger,' then burning down his house, while Batman is too stupid to use a computer... I find that an unfunny insult to both characters. It's a joke you can only enjoy, IMHO, if you like Superman so much you hate Batman. The idea of Batman sabotaging Superman in revenge by making the film that made my young comic-loving nephew and neice demand to leave the theatre... I found that funny. Not hysterical, but better than animated Superman handing around boogers."

C'mon, the image was posted as a parody of the extreme depictions of Superman as the ultimate Boy Scout and Batman as the obsessive analytical hard-ass. You and Damo are making too much of it.

I've shown that image to one moderator on CBR and he thought it was hilarious. I guess it's a matter of personal judgment of laughter, but you two are getting two worked up over it to you're coming off as a little anal-retentive.