Winter is Coming! (the official "A Song of Ice and Fire" thread)

[bitplayer]

Ya problem is Brieene doesn't advance the over all story much imo. I understand it's half of what he intended but my word what about the looming threat from the undead and why they're up and about and how to kill them? What about the dragons? What about the magic coming back?

All the really juicy stuff is missing in this book imo.

It's funny but a fair portion of this book seems to be from characters on the sidelines too. Take the iron men, for instance, the most powerful and interesting character isn't given a pov. Well I shouldn't really say most interesting as Theon was the most interesting out of them all- lil sneaky bastage that he was.

Don't get me wrong I liked the book and read it over the space of a few days but compared to the other books it's a bit weak imo.

Meh. I dunno. Just hope the next one actually does come out in 06.

[Donald M.]

Meh. I dunno. Just hope the next one actually does come out in 06.

Heh. Don't hold your breath.

[Ottmeister X]

I haven't started reading through Feast yet as I decided to re-read the books. Therefore, I avoided reading any of the other recent posts in this thread due to possible spoilers. Here's an interview with Martin that I got via a monthly Spectra book newsletter I receive by e-mail. Sorry if this has already been posted.

20 minute Martin Interview (http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/hmhV0KfrVm0WE0j8f0Ea)

[Norrin Radd]

I loved books 1-3.

But this time...

(spoilers)








It was well-written, as always, but I can't say I'm satisfied because the story didn't move much at all.

The Brienne chapters were almost totally superfluous. I was continually hoping for a payoff that never came. And they were a huge part of the book.

Practically nothing happens in Dorne or with Sansa.

The Ironmen were intriguing, but too much detail went into those characters.

The Cersei plot was captivating but could have been shaved. Neither did it hold many surprises.

I personally believe that when Martin originally wrote this huge book that included Jon, Dany, and Tyrion, those characters carried the story. But when he split the relatively minor characters away into Feast of Crows, the momentum was left behind with the other book.

[Gordon Smith]

Today's the big day, folks. I'll be seeing Mr. Martin this evening. I hope I don't give him my cold. :p

[Parallax48]

Was anyone else annoyed that he started calling the chapter headings things like The Drowned Man and The Prophet and The Soiled Knight instead of their names?

It's hard enough to keep track of all the characters, but man that made it even harder.

[Expletive Deleted]

I actually liked that touch. Giving everyone an epithet or two makes everything seem more . . . "epic" isn't exactly the right word, but it's as close as I can get.

[Donald M.]

Was anyone else annoyed that he started calling the chapter headings things like The Drowned Man and The Prophet and The Soiled Knight instead of their names?

It's hard enough to keep track of all the characters, but man that made it even harder.

I had no problem figuring out who was meant by the various chapters, ususally before even reading the chapter.

It's all that heraldry that gets on my nerves. Either the endless lists of families with no real bearing on the action and the symbols on their flags were less intrusive in previous books, or there was just more actually going on to distract me from it.

[Iangould]

It's all that heraldry that gets on my nerves. Either the endless lists of families with no real bearing on the action and the symbols on their flags were less intrusive in previous books, or there was just more actually going on to distract me from it.

I've become such a Westeros obsessive that I got excited when reading the bit in "The Hedge Knight" dealing with the origin of Red Apple Fossaways and the Green Apple Fossaways.

So no, the heraldry didn't bother me.

What did bother me was realising that we now probably have a more complete account of the last 2-300 years of the history of Westeros than we do of the history of medieval Europe.

[cactusmaac]

Was anyone else annoyed that he started calling the chapter headings things like The Drowned Man and The Prophet and The Soiled Knight instead of their names?

It's hard enough to keep track of all the characters, but man that made it even harder.

Preferred it.

Allows for more perspectives.

[davidboring]

The only part of the book which really stuck out in my mind was the bit with the Victarion guy jumping onto ships and chopping people up with his axe. That part was great!

[Ottmeister X]

Read the first three over again and just finished Feast. I'll have to say it was the weakest of the batch. Martin's writing skills seemed to have waned a little because it seemed not a lot of headway was made and there was more sex scenes and sexual references and sexual derogatory remarks than previously. I don't mind that stuff, but too much of it just becomes filler material to me. I still enjoyed the book enough, but I think the cliffhangers at the end are what saved the book for me.

Maybe it was the selection of POV's for this book. I like Jaime now and enjoy Brienne and Arya. I don't care for Cersei and Sansa is boring for the most part and I only enjoyed her when The Hound was interacting with her.

I, for one, could do without the other POV's that get one or two chapters. I can handle a prologue and an epilogue with someone else's POV, but that's about it. For example, the Greyjoys, is it necessary to bring them in as POV's with everything else going on? I could accept Theon since he already did him. I just get worried about him going down Jordan's path with too much going on. I could also do without the renaming of some character's POV, such as Sansa as Alayne. We know who she is.

I'm not trying to be critical of Martin and I'm happily along for the ride. However, it's a little mind-boggling that we waited this long for Feast when comparing the quality of it to the first three. I know, I know, there's another book due soon, but we've seen how quick his books come out.

[Ottmeister X]

Just in case no one has seen the new update:

DoD Update (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/nextbook.html)

[Blueferret]

Interesting about how much of DOD is finished. It may be longer than I thought before the book is published as it looks like it is only halfway complete.

[a. non]

hooray! a thrid Dunk & Egg! Duncan is one of the most decent (personality-wise) characters in SoIaF, and i liked how he's been mentioned through the books Lord Commander Duncan of the Kingsguard and King Aegon V Targaryen

[Inkthinker]

:eek:

Unbelievable... I can't believe I didn't make the "Duncan" connection until you spelled it out for me.

*slams head against wall*

That's awesome, though... I really need to read the second novella, too, I think I'll go pick that up this week.

Thanks for the heads-up! I really enjoyed the Hedge Knight a lot, and this will give me something too look forward to while we wait another couple years for the 600 pages he hasn't written yet (by his own estimate, he's got about 650 pages done and he want's the book to be 1200-1300 pages long).

But hey, more Arya in the next book! I'm really enjoying her story, I think it's one of the POVs that stands incredibly well on its own. Plus, he left us with an absolute son-of-a-bitch cliffhanger in AFFC.

:D

[Shellhead]

"Lost the plot" is a general comment meant to convey that the quality of the series is declining. I can't comment as to whether Martin has a plan or not. All I know is that I am becoming less and less interested in juggling the kind of detail required of readers of this series. I've been reading reviews of Book Four and I don't remember half of the things reviewers mention. I'm a pretty smart guy, but I read A STORM OF SWORDS five years ago and hated it so much that I have no desire to go back and re-read it to figure out what's going on in Book Four.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Martin's writing gets worse with each book: his style and his plotting get worse, he introduces minor POV characters in whom I have increasingly little interest, and, worst of all, he's begun to commit Jordan-isms. Dead people have begun to come back. Two-dimensional characters are sketched in repetitive behaviors that are somehow supposed to convey entire personalities. If I'd read one more description of Stannis clenching his teeth in A CLASH OF KINGS I think I would have broken a molar.

I have no issue with epic gigantism in fantasy-- I do read Erikson and Bakker after all-- but the writing has to hold up. Martin's doesn't.

rob

I just want to know why you are giving Tolkien a free pass, instead of judging him by the same standards you are judging Martin. Did you actually read The Two Towers, or did you just see the movie? Because that book was loaded with minor characters that lacked personalities, and after a while, most of their names ceased to mean anything to me. And again and again, we got filler material from Tolkien in the form of what-the-hobbits-ate-for-lunch or this-is-an-old-elven-poem. Was Tolkien getting paid by the word?

[leonaozaki]

I just want to know why you are giving Tolkien a free pass, instead of judging him by the same standards you are judging Martin. Did you actually read The Two Towers, or did you just see the movie? Because that book was loaded with minor characters that lacked personalities, and after a while, most of their names ceased to mean anything to me. And again and again, we got filler material from Tolkien in the form of what-the-hobbits-ate-for-lunch or this-is-an-old-elven-poem. Was Tolkien getting paid by the word?

I've been pondering how to respond to this for a while now, because my response would invariably include spoilers. Can I assume by this point that everybody reading this thread has read the first three books?

rob

[Roquefort Raider]

I've been pondering how to respond to this for a while now, because my response would invariably include spoilers. Can I assume by this point that everybody reading this thread has read the first three books?

rob

I think that is a fair assumption. Spoil away.

[leonaozaki]

I just want to know why you are giving Tolkien a free pass, instead of judging him by the same standards you are judging Martin. Did you actually read The Two Towers, or did you just see the movie? Because that book was loaded with minor characters that lacked personalities, and after a while, most of their names ceased to mean anything to me. And again and again, we got filler material from Tolkien in the form of what-the-hobbits-ate-for-lunch or this-is-an-old-elven-poem. Was Tolkien getting paid by the word?

First of all, what's with the personal insult? Did I say that Martin did shocking things to your family members with their consent? Of course I read the Two Towers, waaaay back in the dim dead time of 1984. I've reread the Lord of the Rings several times since then, well before the movies ever came out.

So am I giving Tolkien a free pass? I don't think so, but it all comes down to personal taste, since I've always had more tolerance for the quotidian reality of the hobbits' eating habits and the songs than many people, since to my mind they lend the work versimilitude that nearly all the fantasy that's come after him has tried to ape and failed. I don't really count Martin in that category, although at times Martin seems to equate 'long lists of heraldry' for 'world-building.' But that's a minor complaint.

Let's take the hobbits and food. It may bore you but it serves a thematic purpose, and it's not too difficult to figure out. Tolkien uses what Frodo and Sam eat (and don't eat) on their journey from the Shire to Mordor as a means of indicating to the audience how their situation has changed from the beginning to the end of their journey. That's a world of difference from Martin letting us know that Tywin Lannister voided his bowels at the moment of his death...just so Martin can get in the last line, that "Lannister did not in fact shit gold." Or that Tyrion really likes performing oral sex. If there was a point to all that, I missed it.

If you don't like the songs, well...it took me a while to appreciate them. But they serve a purpose as well: is it that difficult to understand why Aragorn sings the lay of Beren and Luthien at the beginning of _Fellowship_? Or the import of the song Galadriel sings to the fellowship upon their departure from Lothlorien?

Minor characters: again, this comes down to taste. I can see why you might find characters like Glorfindel, Erkenbrand and Prince Imrahil to be boring and two-dimensional, but they serve thematic and narrative purposes as well, and any one of them is more interesting to me than Stannis Tooth-Chomper or Cersei Incest-Lady.

My real beef, though, with Martin is that he breaks his own rules. One of the things I really liked about A GAME OF THRONES was that it seemed to be, with the exception of the dragons and the Others, to be a relatively magic-poor world, which I thought was an appropriate choice for a fantasy world loosely based on the Wars of the Roses. Then, in book two, we get magic, from out of nowhere, in the person of the Red Woman (might be misremembering her name), who essentially eliminates one of the more interesting conflicts (between the Three Kings) of the first book.

Then there's the problem of Caitlin. I read an interview with Jordan around the time of A CLASH OF KINGS where he said that his main problem with THE LORD OF THE RINGS was the resurrection of Gandalf. At the time, I thought "There was a thematic point there, but fair enough, he didn't like it." And what happens at the end of A STORM OF SWORDS? So, Caitlin gets it in the neck, which was traumatic for anyone sympathetic to her character, but oh wait! She gets resurrected by a force (the green men) that have been barely been discussed in the books up until that point. (Moreover, that scene gives us another bowels-voiding-at-the-time-of-death scene, which bore me to tears but Martin seems to like.) So in my mind Martin is cheating, and playing fast and loose with the logic of his world.

rob

[Roquefort Raider]

We seem to have the same appreciation of Tolkien, rob, and I for one would think Lord of the rings far poorer if the songs and poetry had been removed from it. They are not cute additions, in my view; they are part and parcel of the whole and could not be excluded without seriously damaging what Tolkien wanted to build with his book.

Now as far as Martin goes, I think that part of his plan is to repeatedly pull the carpet from under our feet. With each new installment, it looks as if we have to reevaluate what the entire story is really about. At first it was the race for a crown; then it was that plus the defense of the world against zombies; then it was all that plus the return of magic into the world brought about by the hatching of dragons; then it was all of that plus the machinations of the maesters to rid the world of magic... I don't think Martin plays loose with his rules, but rather that he tries to hide plots within larger plots, and reveals each new layer very slowly.

The recent book was dreadfully slow in certain regards, but it brought a few important developments: we learned that the Citadel may be responsible for the disappearance of both magic and dragons and that Viserys the beggar king was all along in contact with the rulers of Dorne who may have prepared his return. Both these revelations shed an entirely new light on what we had seen before. (For what it's worth, I'm not too keen on this method of revealing layer after layer of plot, because I think it eventually thins the soup and keeps us away from the characters we have some emotional investment in. But if keeping us guessing is really what Martin is doing, he does seem to know where he's headed).

I just hope that he won't have to split "A dance of dragons" again before we get to know what happens next to the Winterfell crowd.


Cheers!

- Ben

[leonaozaki]

The recent book was dreadfully slow in certain regards, but it brought a few important developments: we learned that the Citadel may be responsible for the disappearance of both magic and dragons and that Viserys the beggar king was all along in contact with the rulers of Dorne who may have prepared his return. Both these revelations shed an entirely new light on what we had seen before. (For what it's worth, I'm not too keen on this method of revealing layer after layer of plot, because I think it eventually thins the soup and keeps us away from the characters we have some emotional investment in. But if keeping us guessing is really what Martin is doing, he does seem to know where he's headed).



Ben,

I agree with just about everything in your post...aside from the fact, of course, that you're still willing to read the series and I'm not. (I'm not making any judgements about that fact above and beyond the fact that I've lost patience with Martin.)

I also think you're right about Martin trying to continually pull the rug out from under us by revealing layer upon layer of plot. Normally I like that sort of thing just fine if the writing, the style, holds up, and to me Martin's just didn't in CLASH and STORM.

The point I've quoted above illustrates one of my chief problems that I forgot to include in the previous post. The books have become so unwieldy with characters, settings, and viewpoints, that the narrative has become lost in a muddle. I'm not one of those readers that thinks every narrative requires a heroic protagonist, but some kind of protagonist would be nice! I also agree that the sprawl of the books keep us away from the characters we have emotional investment in. If the writing held up, that wouldn't be such an issue, but since it hasn't, I can't work up too much emotion about Stannis, Cersei, or Theon. Tyrion's story even started to bore me in STORM. The revelation that the Winterfell characters wouldn't be in the most recent book sealed the deal for me.

Thanks a lot for the thoughtful response.

rob

[literally exaggerated]

The last book was reminescent of Robert Jordan. A few developments, sure. But not nearly enough.

I LOVED 1-3 and was quite dissappointed by Feast.

[Inkthinker]

Stannis and Cersei both serve thematic purposes as distinctive personalities within the narrative.

And Caitlin's ressurection would appear to have long and serious consequences, espescially for Caitlin herself... she's not merely brought back to life as if death had no consequences for the character.

If you can't see that, it's likely because you're too busy thinking about how much better such-and-such other favorite book is, rather than enjoying the narrative on its own merits.

[leonaozaki]

Stannis and Cersei both serve thematic purposes as distinctive personalities within the narrative.

And Caitlin's ressurection would appear to have long and serious consequences, espescially for Caitlin herself... she's not merely brought back to life as if death had no consequences for the character.

If you can't see that, it's likely because you're too busy thinking about how much better such-and-such other favorite book is, rather than enjoying the narrative on its own merits.

I don't think I have a problem evaluating the narrative on its own merits, and would appreciate not having my mind read. I didn't offer my initial criticisms of Martin in comparison to Tolkien, Erikson or Bakker; I evaluated the narrative on its own terms and came to the conclusion that I didn't like STORM OF SWORDS enough to buy A FEAST FOR CROWS.

I didn't make the initial Tolkien comparison; various people linked to articles crowning Martin the King of High Fantasy over Tolkien, and I responded by arguing such claims were rubbish. Then Shellhead asked me why I gave Tolkien a free pass for the things I criticize Martin for (in my mind that question is based on false assumptions, but there you go).

Was I thinking of how much more I enjoyed LORD OF THE RINGS when I nearly threw A STORM OF SWORDS across the room? Not consciously. But, again, thanks for telling me what I was _really_ thinking.

And, again, my real issue with Caitlin's resurrection is that it's accomplished by a force that up until that point had received barely attention in the narrative. So in my mind that's cheating. Alastair Reynolds pulled a similar thing in ABSOLUTION GAP but I like his style more than Martin's in A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE so it didn't bother me as much.

And I could make a snarky comment here about Cersei and Stannis's personalities but I've said my piece on them. You and I don't agree on the merits of ICE AND FIRE, which is fine. I don't think you're stupid for liking a series I no longer care for.

rob

[Inkthinker]

I disagree that the force which ressurected Caitlin and others was barely touched upon at all... Hell, there was half a book of the continuous ressurected Bendic Dondarrion, and it was the same force that Thoros used on Caitlin.

I'll be surprised if we don't find out that it's connected to the same forces which have been ressurecting dead men in the North since the first book... possibly a polar opposite of that force, since one is based on fire and the other on ice (hence, perhaps, the overarcing series title) but to say that it was barely touched upon, as if Martin pulled it out in the second act as a deus ex machina, is simply untrue.

Martin doesn't touch on magic much, it's true, but it's existence has been consistent, and once something in the system has been established (such as resurrection) then that element has (so far) been consistent as well.

You actually threw the book across the room?

[leonaozaki]

Martin doesn't touch on magic much, it's true, but it's existence has been consistent, and once something in the system has been established (such as resurrection) then that element has (so far) been consistent as well.

You actually threw the book across the room?

How much magic was in the first book? How much foundation did we have for the Red Woman's ability to conjure the assassin spirit and curse the kings in the second book?

But it doesn't much matter in the end. I'd be willing to put up with these narrative shortcomings if the writing were better...and it isn't, but so it goes.

No, I didn't throw the book across the room. I thought about it, hence the use of the word "nearly." I never reread STORM, either, and I believe I only reread CLASH once. I think I read GAME at least three times.

In closing, let me ask you this. I've read a lot of messageboard discussion of these books, and one of the main attractions for many people has been the idea that no character is safe (exactly why that's such an attraction I don't understand, but let that be). Now that resurrection has been introduced into the world, do these deaths have such meaning now?

rob

[cactusmaac]

How much magic was in the first book? How much foundation did we have for the Red Woman's ability to conjure the assassin spirit and curse the kings in the second book?

It seemed apparent that magic was going to be a continuing factor from the prologue, when Ser Waymar Royce was attacked by the Others.

Now that resurrection has been introduced into the world, do these deaths have such meaning now?

It's not like resurrections are a frequent occurrence in ASOFAI.

[Roquefort Raider]

In closing, let me ask you this. I've read a lot of messageboard discussion of these books, and one of the main attractions for many people has been the idea that no character is safe (exactly why that's such an attraction I don't understand, but let that be). Now that resurrection has been introduced into the world, do these deaths have such meaning now?


That's a good question, and since I assume most people here also read comics I think we're all aware of how meaningless the death of characters becomes if we know they can all be brought back.

In the case of Martin's story, I don't think that this worry applies. For starters, characters aren't resurrected wholesale. Furthermore, they aren't resurrected per se; they're more like "reanimated". Beric did state that each time he was brought back he was a little less of what he was; as for Caitlin, she was brought back as a three-days old corpse and is apparently brain-damaged. I sure wouldn't want anyone I care for to be resurrected that way. As for other characters we liked, I doubt they can undergo the same treatment; their flesh would be too badly decomposed.

Regarding magic or the lack thereof, I am pretty sure that Martin started A Game Of Thrones with the magic-meter close to zero and that it's the birth of the dragons that allowed it to seep back into the world. I'm fairly convinced that the Red Woman's powers have only recently appeared: I got the impression that although her faith was an old one, neither she nor anyone else could perform miracles before before the dragons were reborn. Didn't someone else in King's Landing say that certain things that didn't use to work started doing so? (I think it was something regarding some alchemical formula; maybe for that green greek fire that they prepared when the city was besieged).

Anyway, I agree with your statement that the "no character is safe" angle is one of the appeals I find in aSoIaF. Martin must however be careful: such an approach will work only if dead protagonists are replaced by others that we equally care for. Personnally, I'm not particularly enthralled by Brienne, Sansa or Samwell.

[Jack]

I just read A Feast for Crows, and finished earlier today. I've got a few things to say.

I liked it, first of all, but I felt disappointed and frustrated by the near-complete absence of some of my favourite characters. I'd heard vaguely that Dany wasn't going to be in it at all, but I didn't know that Jon would be absent, or Tyrion. Considering Jon and Tyrion are basically my favourite characters, I wasn't happy about it. Of course, in a year or so maybe I'll get a book filled with them and be overjoyed as a result. Maybe not. We'll see.

I think my favourite chapters were the Arya ones, which were of course so few in number. I sort of disliked how Cersei got the most chapters. It was fascinating to get to see her thought processes at last, and I liked how Martin managed to add some real tragedy to Cersei without actually redeeming her as a person. But he really could have squashed them into fewer chapters and made more room for the other characters. Still, her comeuppance was very nice to read.

I liked how the Dorne and Iron Islands stories were told with rotating POVs, that was good. I kept hoping for Theon, miserable bastard as he is, to march in to the kingsmoot and claim the throne, and was disappointed when he didn't, but oh well. The revelation of how Doran had been in contact with Viserys and planning to marry him to Arianne all along was great. In fact Doran himself was wonderful, especially at the end where he reveals his true feelings on everything.

I liked both the political machinations of Littlefinger and Sansa's increasing understanding of them. The revelation of his plan was exciting, if rather doomed.

You'd think I wouldn't expect Brienne to make it through her hanging, but somehow I do. If only because Thoros is right there. It was a Brienne moment that I think I most disliked about the book, when she chose Dunk's shield as her own. That really brought me out of it, and just didn't seem right. Sure, it's a fitting sigil for her, but it just seemed silly and out of place, kind of a wink wink nudge nudge from Martin.

As I said, I liked it... but it really was only half a book, and only half as satisfying. Half an ASoIaF book is still better than most others, but it's not the same as a full one.

EDIT - Oh yeah... Since Jon is probably Rhaegar's son, I was wondering if he would get a dragon for himself. If he is the song of ice and fire, then should he not have both a direwolf (ice) and a dragon (fire)? My theory is that Stannis will discover that Robb made Jon his heir, and so Jon is King of the North, and decide to sacrifice him. They'll fight, and Stannis will be killed instead, which will still fulfil the requirements of a king's blood to hatch the egg, or wake the statues, or whatever

Oh, and I love the idea of the Maesters being the ones who killed the dragons and otherwise destroyed the magic. It's delicious and filling.

[atorifan]

If you like this series, you need to see some of the comic strips on this link. Pretty funny.

ASOFAI ART (http://www.winterfell.altervista.org/img.htm)
that's some good representations of some of my fav characters in fantasy. i wonder if the artist wants to be a book cover artist.

as far as book 4, i had no idea it came out last nov. i thought it was still waiting release. but i want to reread the whole series again. but there's so little time with comics, and scanning their covers, work 70hr weeks, try n sleep, only so much i can do.

i don't know what tolkien and martin have to do with one another, other than fitting under the same general bumbershoot. i think they wrote books in different styles, with different goals, and different ideas on how fantasy should work. tolkien was writing about the end of something, martin's is still in it's expansion, of course it's finite, but it's still revealing itself. now, one day we may be able to say martin held up or not. but from a personal point of view, tolkien's work was such an eye opener for me when i read it as a lad, it will always kind of be premier in my rankings.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I finally got around to reading A FEAST FOR CROWS. I've had a big stack of other things to read, and somehow it kept getting pushed further down.

Having finished it, I have to say there were many things I loved about the book - interesting new characters, startling revelations - but I found myself somewhat disappointed at the same time, something I've not felt with any of the other volumes. Mostly, it's a matter of us not getting much - or anything at all - of many of the established characters. Mind you, I liked what we got just fine, but the book really felt quite incomplete with no Jon, no Dany, no Tyrion. When we kept getting teaser references to Dany, when Tyrion has such a presence in the Cersei chapters yet never actually appears, etc., the overall result - for me, anyhow - was a rather cruel tease.

Anyhow, I'm hoping the wait for the next volume isn't as long as the wait for this one was.

[Inkthinker]

I think it'll work better when the books are all out, and a person reading it for the first time doesn't HAVE to wait a year for the next volume.

I just finished Glen Cook's "Black Company" series, which runs across 10 books published from 1984 to 2000, and he's got some plot-dangling stuff going on there which must have been painful for anyone reading the series as a contemporary... it's much easier when you can read all ten books about as fast as you can get from one to the next.

[Valmore]

Mind you, I liked what we got just fine, but the book really felt quite incomplete with no Jon, no Dany, no Tyrion. When we kept getting teaser references to Dany, when Tyrion has such a presence in the Cersei chapters yet never actually appears, etc., the overall result - for me, anyhow - was a rather cruel tease.

Anyhow, I'm hoping the wait for the next volume isn't as long as the wait for this one was.

Martin had written so much material that there was no way he could fit the entire book into one, thus the need to split it in two. Fortunately, the wait for "A Dance With Dragons" shouldn't be that long, since he already had half of the material at the time "A Feast For Crows" was published.

Of course, for those of us who get bored to tears with Dany's chapters, the next book does offer something to not look forward to. However, if Tyrion and Jon and Davos are in it I'm happy.

[Fenris]

It was indeed frustrating, having half the characters absent. And I kept wondering, "Was Cersei always this stupid, and we just never knew it because she seemed smart from the outside?"

But! I was reading the chapter where they discover Daenerys' role in the prophecy, and it felt like the entire series clicked closer together.

I mean: Jordon's series, for all its obvious flaws, has a clear narrative goal. Rand is moving towards the Last Battle. This structures everything (well, ideally it would) and provides an overview while I'm reading it.

I didn't have a sense of this while reading ASOI&F. It seemed like the series veered from one story to the next, especially as one protagonist after another got killed off. I'd begun wondering if the series was just going to be an ongoing chronicle of the land's political machinations.

But: "Daenerys is our hope." When I read that, I suddenly realized: it's the Return of the Queen. Dani's going to reestablish the original draconic monarchy, and end the cycle of political chaos that Kingslaying always brings about in classical literature.


õ
I'm embarrassed I didn't see it before!

[JeffreyWKramer]

It was indeed frustrating, having half the characters absent. And I kept wondering, "Was Cersei always this stupid, and we just never knew it because she seemed smart from the outside?"

I think that once she got to the top, she stopped using the subtlety and wits which had served her well up to that point. Beyond that, the depiction in the most recent volume somewhat suggests she was being driven nuts by the old prophecy and by the continued failure of anyone to locate Tyrion. Her paranoia kept leading her to order and take part in inrcreasingly desperate and immoral acts, which only drug her down all the faster.

Her grief over the loss of her son, her father and - effectively - Jaime didn't help her any, either.

But! I was reading the chapter where they discover Daenerys' role in the prophecy, and it felt like the entire series clicked closer together.
Yup, the pieces are finally starting to fall into place. It is still clear where some of the players fall - are they part of the big scheme, or are they only pawns - but the overall layout of the board is becoming more clear.

[JeffreyWKramer]

One thing GRR Martin has managed to do, time and again through the books, is to instill in the readers some sense of sympathy for - or even identification with - characters who are initially presented as simply villainous. Jaime and the Hound are two obvious examples.

That didn't happen this time around, in regard to Cersei. Or, it didn't happen for me, at least. The POV chapters gave me a better understanding of what makes her tick, of her motivations, but I can't say they made me the least bit sympathetic for her. Nor have we seen her have any feelings about anything or anyone which are not at least as much self-serving as reflecting true affection for that thing or person. Even her own children are adored more as pawns and as a means to an end than for their own sake. Honestly, it didn't seem to me that Martin tried to instill that sympathy. We find out a lot about Cersei, but none of it is noble - it's all petty, and the only transformation she experiences is downward. This is very much opposed to Jaime's growth - his attempt to honor his vows, his actual affection and respect for Brienne and his growing understanding of chivalry demonstrate a change on his part.

What about you? Did any of you find yourself changing your mind about Cersei, or having sympathy for her?

[Roquefort Raider]

What about you? Did any of you find yourself changing your mind about Cersei, or having sympathy for her?

No, and it's one of the problems I had with A Feast for Crows (apart from the lack of any significant advancement to the general plot). I didn't find any of the protagonists particularly sympathetic.

Cersei was a monster of egotism and pettiness; the Ironmen were arrogant and irritating; the Dornish characters were just more chess pieces with little distinguishing features, and Sam Tarly was just his bumbly foolish self. Brienne was O.K., I guess, but if she was a Star Wars character she'd be someone like Wedge... not someone I'd like to read hundreds of pages about. Plus all she did is wander around. (I should add, however, that given the climax of her own subplot, I'd be somewhat upset to have to wait TWO books to find out what happened to her).

Arya wasn't on stage long enough for it to really count, and although Sansa did show some mettle, she was also not given a whole lot to do for us to care about. She wiped the nose of a little monster and managed not to get seduced by Littlefingers, and that's it.

We're far, far from the engrossing quality of the first three novels, which were real page-turners.

[JeffreyWKramer]

No, and it's one of the problems I had with A Feast for Crows (apart from the lack of any significant advancement to the general plot). I didn't find any of the protagonists particularly sympathetic.


Brienne was okay but, yeah, definitely supporting-character material. I'm finding Jaime fascinating at this point, and I did like the Arya chapters, but yeah, this is another way in which the book really was hurt by the lack of some of the other characters - Jon and Tyrion, especially.

It was the first time I actually liked Sansa, though. She has always come off as more of a ditz up to this point. Still, I expect the ultimate influence of Littlefinger will not be a positive one.

[Roquefort Raider]

It was the first time I actually liked Sansa, though. She has always come off as more of a ditz up to this point. Still, I expect the ultimate influence of Littlefinger will not be a positive one.

You know what would be cool? Sansa learning to be more and more like Petyr. Right now she's written as a straight-arrow character who virtuously stands up for what is right and proper, but given her current environment and who her current guide is, I could easily see her becoming more devious and manipulative. She certainly learned how to manipulate her aunt (for a while) and the little snot she's in charge of. Wouldn't it be nice to see her out-maneuver Petyr eventually?

[JeffreyWKramer]

You know what would be cool? Sansa learning to be more and more like Petyr. Right now she's written as a straight-arrow character who virtuously stands up for what is right and proper, but given her current environment and who her current guide is, I could easily see her becoming more devious and manipulative. She certainly learned how to manipulate her aunt (for a while) and the little snot she's in charge of. Wouldn't it be nice to see her out-maneuver Petyr eventually?


I think we're seeing signs of her heading that direction already - her increasing understanding of the politics of the realm, for example - and it makes sense that her being wedded off for politics (as opposed to her romantic fantasies of true love) will only move her further along that path.

At least this particular development serves to make her interesting. Much an improvement from her clueless victim-in-waiting status.

[Inkthinker]

I don't necessarily think we're supposed to find Cersei sympathetic... we might understand her motivations, but we don't necessarily like her or the choices she makes... mostly 'cause she is such a bitch.

[Valmore]

I don't necessarily think we're supposed to find Cersei sympathetic... we might understand her motivations, but we don't necessarily like her or the choices she makes... mostly 'cause she is such a bitch.

And I think that's the point, and it's not a bad thing - we're not supposed to sympathize with everyone in the novel, though one could certainly do so in a weird way with Cersei. In a way, she's like the parent who refuses to see her child is a little slow and needs help. (Like the ones who protest if a teacher tries to put a student in a slower group to help improve basic skills.) Joeffrey was not the regal boy prince/king that she continually saw in her eyes, but she would never admit it. And the children are also a means to an end she couldn't achieve on her own - the Iron Throne.

[cactusmaac]

I didn't like the relevation of her being attracted to Rhaegar.

It seemed somewhat tacked on.

[Blueferret]

I didn't like the relevation of her being attracted to Rhaegar.

It seemed somewhat tacked on.

I agree. It seemed like that was put in to make her somewhat sympathetic to readers, like she had made sacrifices as well.

[Jack]

I didn't like the relevation of her being attracted to Rhaegar.

It seemed somewhat tacked on.
I think that might be the point. It's Cersei justifying everything she's done and everything that's happened by saying that "Oh, if only I'd married Rhaegar, then everything would have turned out for the better". To her, it's okay that she's an evil, sinful bitch who's content to burn the kingdom down around herself, because after all it's not her fault. She wanted to marry Rhaegar.

The whole Cersei/Rhaegar thing does have some precedent in the previous books, specifically in a conversation between Oberyn Martell and Tyrion. But it seems to me that Cersei is making a bigger deal out of it than it really was in order to justify her crimes.

Oh, and Cersei was always that stupid. She’s the anti-Tyrion, as she’s a horrible, foolish woman with a beautiful body where Tyrion is a good, intelligent man trapped in the body of a dwarf. Littlefinger (I think) says of her in ASoS something like "Cersei has always relied on her three greatest weapons: her beauty, wealth and birth. Only one of those is truly her own, and even that will be gone soon." It's when he's telling Sansa about players and pieces in the Game of Thrones. Which, I also believe, is Sansa's destiny and role to play. It's because she's been learning to understand the Game that she's actually become interesting to me.

The Starks are all off mastering their own disciplines at the moment so that they can play the roles they're going to have to. Bran is going to the three-eyed crow, Arya is with the Faceless Men and Sansa is with Littlefinger, the political mastermind. I suppose you could say that Jon is learning to lead with the Watch and will go on to greater things, but he might not apply.

Speaking of Littlefinger... do you think he genuinely believes he took Catelyn's virginity? He brings it up again and again, and when Lysa tells her tale, the night she first slept with him he was stone drunk and called her "Cat".

I've been rereading the series and contemplating the various possibilities. I find myself wondering if Sansa will end up loving Tyrion for who he is, which would be a big change but a fitting arc for the girl who once loved Joffrey for his looks. Is the three-eyed crow a crow-crow or a Watch-crow (and on that note, I have to be incredibly disappointed that a book named “A Feast for Crows” managed not to include either the Watch or the TEC)? Who are the heads of the dragons? My bets would be on Bran and Jon, but that seems too easy. This is the Song of Ice and Fire, though, and Dany is fire, Bran is ice and Jon is both at once, so there’s a certain balance to the idea. After rereading Game of Thrones I’m completely convinced that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Ned interestingly never thinks directly about Jon, but spends a lot of time dwelling on the mysterious promises he made to her on Lyanna's death...floor and how he regrets not telling someone something about them.

Although if Jon is Lyanna’s son by Rhaegar, which is completely possible since Rhaegar is said to have loved her and definitely had sex with her, whether it was consensual or not, that begs the question of how the characters are supposed to find out, what with Ned dead. First guess would be the woman Edric Dayne thinks is Jon’s mother, Wylla. Ned (Stark) told Robert that she was Jon’s mother, and she apparently told other people, so if she’s lying and covering for Ned she might know the truth. The other possibility is Howland Reed.

Of course if Jon is supposed to be a head of the dragon and Dany’s future lover, that begs the question of how he gets out of his Watchness. Maybe the Wall really will fall. If it does, perhaps Bran will not be the Broken, but another Brandon the Builder. That would be helpful, since Winterfell has fallen too. Man I've been rambling.

[cactusmaac]

Littlefinger wanted Catelyn but couldn't have her, so he slept with Lysa instead.

I don't think Jon is the son of Rhaegar-Lyanna since George Martin's partner said that was way too obvious.

[Jack]

Littlefinger wanted Catelyn but couldn't have her, so he slept with Lysa instead.Aha, but see that's the obvious explanation :p

But as I said, the night that Petyr slept with Lysa he was extremely drunk and called her "Cat". It's entirely possible that he does actually believe he slept with Catelyn that night, considering how he goes on and on about it. We know that he didn't actually sleep with her, since Catelyn's inner monologue recalls at more than one point her wedding night, but it's entirely possible that Littlefinger genuinely does believe he slept with her.

[Arilou]

Aha, but see that's the obvious explanation :p

But as I said, the night that Petyr slept with Lysa he was extremely drunk and called her "Cat". It's entirely possible that he does actually believe he slept with Catelyn that night, considering how he goes on and on about it. We know that he didn't actually sleep with her, since Catelyn's inner monologue recalls at more than one point her wedding night, but it's entirely possible that Littlefinger genuinely does believe he slept with her.

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus.

Incidentally, some people think *Tyrion* might become one of the heads of the dragon. He has a fascination with fire and (especially) dragons, also, given his small stature he might be able to ride a dragon before anyone else can.

[Jack]

Tyrion as a dragon head would be awesome. One of Dany's visions might have been about Tyrion. It was "A white lion ran through grass taller than a man." The grass could be tall, but maybe the lion was just very small.

Back to Jon being the son of Rhaegar/Lyanna... remember what happened in that tower, and who was there. It came after Rhaegar had died, after Jaime killed Aerys, after Tywin ordered the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys and after Viserys and his mother were spirited away. There were three of the Kingsguard at that tower. And not just any three. Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent and the goddamn Sword of Morning.

The Kingsguard do not flee, they said to Ned. No, they guard. So what were they guarding?

[Inkthinker]

I think Petyr wants to believe he slept with Catelyn, and part of the reason he killed Lyssa was to permanently remove the only thing in life that could contradict his (possibly pyschotic) need to believe it.

The fact that it was a politically astute maneuver was just icing. Or maybe it's the other way 'round... either way, that's how you play the Game, right?

:D

[Valmore]

I think Petyr wants to believe he slept with Catelyn, and part of the reason he killed Lyssa was to permanently remove the only thing in life that could contradict his (possibly pyschotic) need to believe it.

Pretty much. He's certainly slept with Lyssa and wanted to sleep with Catelyn. Those are obvious. And it's obvious he's not beyond telling lies for whatever he sees as a personal gain, and with his mentality, he'd probably see people believing he slept with Catelyn Tully before Eddard Stark did as some sort of personal gain. And for some people, if you keep telling a lie over and over again, it suddenly becomes truth in your head.

[Jack]

Hmm, interesting..

Okay, new tangent! Does anyone else think that [Queen] Jeyne's mother was giving her moon tea (or an equivalent) so that she wouldn't get pregnant? Jeyne mentioned that every morning her mother gave her a mixture of herbs that were supposed to make her fertile, but she never did get pregnant... The Westerlings were Lannister bannermen, after all, and it's the sort of cunning thing that Tywin would have done. We know he had his part in the Red Wedding, but was there even more to it than that?

Also, Melisandre mentioned that new pretenders would rise to claim the thrones of Robb and Balon. Now, Euron took Balon's throne, but Robb's has remained empty... will Dance of Dragons see it go to Jon, or to someone else? I wouldn't say it had to go to anyone, since they lost everything, but Melisandre did say someone else would take the crown... Maybe Rickon will be found by someone. We don't know where he is, after all.

Oh! And SPOILERS for Feast, but... what the hell does anyone else think is up with Pate?

[Arilou]

Okay, new tangent! Does anyone else think that [Queen] Jeyne's mother was giving her moon tea (or an equivalent) so that she wouldn't get pregnant? Jeyne mentioned that every morning her mother gave her a mixture of herbs that were supposed to make her fertile, but she never did get pregnant... The Westerlings were Lannister bannermen, after all, and it's the sort of cunning thing that Tywin would have done. We know he had his part in the Red Wedding, but was there even more to it than that?

Yep, that's pretty much the consensus :p

Also, Melisandre mentioned that new pretenders would rise to claim the thrones of Robb and Balon. Now, Euron took Balon's throne, but Robb's has remained empty... will Dance of Dragons see it go to Jon, or to someone else? I wouldn't say it had to go to anyone, since they lost everything, but Melisandre did say someone else would take the crown... Maybe Rickon will be found by someone. We don't know where he is, after all.

Not certain but there *are* a few people who might take it up....
#1: Jon, obviously, though it's not likely.
#2: The Blackfish, he might at least try to rally the Northmen, I doubt he'd take a crown though.
#3: The Leech-Lord, Roose Bolton. With the Lannisters in trouble, nothing says he can't strike out on his own....


Oh! And SPOILERS for Feast, but... what the hell does anyone else think is up with Pate?


Pate is Jaqen H'gar. Check the descriptions of Jaqen's face that he reveals when he leaves Arya at Harrenhal against the face he uses as "The Alchemist". He killed Pate to take his place.

[Jack]

Yep, that's pretty much the consensusBah, I care not for your "consensus".
Pate is Jaqen H'gar. Check the descriptions of Jaqen's face that he reveals when he leaves Arya at Harrenhal against the face he uses as "The Alchemist". He killed Pate to take his place.Ah, that makes sense. The gap between me reading Storm and Feast was way too big for me to remember that detail, I guess.

Do we really need to bother will full out spoiler tags. Whatever. Anyway, I guess that means Jaqen wasn't the Faceless Man who killed Balon, but what's his mission now?Any idea who the new POVs will be for Dance? Presumably there'll be another two, though I guess Martin might do what he did in Feast and show some story threads from changing perspectives.

[Arilou]

Do we really need to bother will full out spoiler tags. Whatever. Anyway, I guess that means Jaqen wasn't the Faceless Man who killed Balon, but what's his mission now

We don't know :) Could be lots of things. (Everything from something to do with the Maesters or Marwyn, to Sarelass/Alleras or even Sam. It's literally driving the people on the ASOIAF board mad :p

But Marwyn seems the most likely. The Faceless Men is a religious order after all, they might be more interested in the revival of magic than in politics....

Any idea who the new POVs will be for Dance? Presumably there'll be another two, though I guess Martin might do what he did in Feast and show some story threads from changing perspectives.

No idea whatsoever actually.

[Jack]

We don't know :) Could be lots of things. (Everything from something to do with the Maesters or Marwyn, to Sarelass/Alleras or even Sam. It's literally driving the people on the ASOIAF board mad :p

But Marwyn seems the most likely. The Faceless Men is a religious order after all, they might be more interested in the revival of magic than in politics....Heh, well, I don't go to those boards, and I probably never will. A little bit of healthy discussion here is all I want, otherwise it'll end up being ruined for me somehow.

Anyway, I like the idea of the FM being interested in the revival of magic. They could stand in opposition to the Maesters in that regard.

I wonder if Luwin was in on the Maester's conspiracy. He did have the Valyrian steel link, and he was awfully adamant about magic not existing and Bran staying away from it.No idea whatsoever actually.I would guess Osha, personally. We don't know what's up with Rickon at all, and a Rickon POV is pretty unlikely.

The other one I think might be Jorah Mormont. I don't think his betrayal of Dany has actually come yet, though I think it will be the "for love" one.

[Drakonnen]

I just wanted to say that these are the best books ever written.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I just wanted to say that these are the best books ever written.

Well, I think that more than a bit of an exaggeration, but they certainly are quite good.

[Tobias March]

I just wanted to say that these are the best books ever written.

The other night someone told me Martin claimed he couldn't write for months after Bush was re-elected. Do you think if he threatened not to write another book in the series until the election was held again, it might have caused a politicial uproar among the nerd community. Good fantasy writing is hard to find these days :D The Eye of Argon thread on YABS seems to prove that certainly.

(not saying all fantasy is that bad, but there's certainly been a downward spiral of late)

[JeffreyWKramer]

(not saying all fantasy is that bad, but there's certainly been a downward spiral of late)


I don't know about "these days" or "of late." For the past 30 years or so, fantasy fiction has included more than its share of hacks. Indeed, I'd say that during that time, there has been a lot more crappy, derivative, unoriginal, badly-written fantasy than there has been really good stuff. Even a lot of the pretty popular stuff - the Shannara books, Jordan's stuff - really isn't very well-written. Tha's one reason why, much as I love well-written fantasy, I don't buy much fantasy - most of it is honestly awful. This is particularly true of the more traditional fantasy genres (quasi-historical and sword/sorcery).

There's crap in every genre, of course, and some - romance, for one, might have an even higher percentage of crappy stuff than fantasy - but I've observed that hardcore fantasy fans seem so hard-up for stuff to read that a lot of really crappy stuff ends up being successful. I honestly don't know how else one can explain the success of folk like Salvatore and the near-endless stream of crappy elf-and-unicorn books that filled the fantasy shelves back in the 80s.

Martin's stuff stands out not only on its own merits - which are considerable - but because it is so vastly better than a lot of fantasy writing.

[Tobias March]

I've met folk who claim to like Salvatore. It's like Big Brother - I just don't get it.

I really do enjoy the work of writers from around the turn of the century up until the 40's. There was quite a lot of interesting stuff been written then that we would now term fantasy. Which is just another opportunity for me to plub Gollancz's Fantasy Masterworks series. Shows up Terry Brooks for being the dead duck he is.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I've met folk who claim to like Salvatore. It's like Big Brother - I just don't get it.

Many people like Paris Hilton, too. I wonder how much overlap there is between "Likes the Drizzt books" and "Thinks Paris Hilton is an interesting and talented person."

[Inkthinker]

I have a very strong suspiscion that Salvatore employs a ghost writer. After the last few Drizzt novels, it feels like he writes a few key scenes and then lets someone else fill out the rest of it... it's just so bland.

But maybe I've just outgrown Salvatore, same as I did with Robert Aspirin and Piers Anthony (welll Anthony really just creeped me out, but the point remains).

[MKTerra]

Improbably, I've been holding out for the paperback version of A Feast for Crows so that I'd have a matching set. I'm not sure I'll do it again though; It sucks having to stay out of the loop for months and months after the hardback release :o

Plus, the other day, in a moment of weakness, I peeked at an Arya spoiler, and then went "AAAARRRRGH! NOOOOOOOOOOO! YOU IDIOT!"

I really should've known better, especially with this series :(

Supposedly the paperback's finally out, so with any luck I'll pick up a copy soon... Looking forward to it :p

[Gordon Smith]

Yes, the paperback edition of A Feast of Crows has now been released. It's available here in Edmonton and presumably most other places.

[cactusmaac]

Has anyone read Dreamsongs, the collection of George Martin's shorter stories?

[SoulOnIce]

Does anyone know if the Hedge Knight solicit under the Marvel banner is the same graphic novel that was released a few years ago?

Has anyone read it?

[Inkthinker]

Does anyone know if the Hedge Knight solicit under the Marvel banner is the same graphic novel that was released a few years ago?

Has anyone read it?

Probably... I certainly haven't heard of any new ones, though there was word that they might do an adaptation of the Hedge Knight sequel story.

I read it, thought it was okay, but not as awesome as I wanted it to be. Personally, I think the best artist for any ASOIAF adaptation would be Mark Smylie, the creator and artist behind Artesia, but I suspect he's kinda busy.

Though if you want something in a similar vein to Martin's epic, I recommend it. He's up to three graphic novels and he's publishing the issues of the fourth now. It's pretty rich in magic, sex, war and politics, and all done with the same flavor of authenticity that makes Martin's books as awesome as they are.

[Shellhead]

Improbably, I've been holding out for the paperback version of A Feast for Crows so that I'd have a matching set. I'm not sure I'll do it again though; It sucks having to stay out of the loop for months and months after the hardback release :o

Plus, the other day, in a moment of weakness, I peeked at an Arya spoiler, and then went "AAAARRRRGH! NOOOOOOOOOOO! YOU IDIOT!"

I really should've known better, especially with this series :(

Supposedly the paperback's finally out, so with any luck I'll pick up a copy soon... Looking forward to it :p

I waited, too. It was hard, because I love this series. Two months ago, I started re-reading the books, and when those ran out, I re-read the first Dunk and Egg novella to fill the time. I finally picked up my copy of AFFC recently and just finished it. Great stuff.

The pace was definitely slower than the last couple of books, and I was initially unenthusiastic about the new characters. But let's face it, Martin killed so many major characters in the first three books that he needed to re-stock the series with some more living characters. And he is still showing us new parts of Westeros and the lands beyond, giving us one of the most detailed settings in all of fiction.

[Valmore]

The pace was definitely slower than the last couple of books, and I was initially unenthusiastic about the new characters. But let's face it, Martin killed so many major characters in the first three books that he needed to re-stock the series with some more living characters. And he is still showing us new parts of Westeros and the lands beyond, giving us one of the most detailed settings in all of fiction.

Well, a lot of the major characters, as you know, are absent from this book, since he wrote so much stuff he had to split the book. No Jon Snow. No Onion Knight. No Theon Greyjoy. No Imp. Etc. They'll be in the next book, along with Boring Dany. It's so painful knowing she's the central figure to the entire book series and reading her chapters are so dull. She's the only character I don't look forward to reading.

[Shellhead]

Of course if Jon is supposed to be a head of the dragon and Dany’s future lover, that begs the question of how he gets out of his Watchness. Maybe the Wall really will fall. If it does, perhaps Bran will not be the Broken, but another Brandon the Builder. That would be helpful, since Winterfell has fallen too. Man I've been rambling.

As early as A Clash of Kings, I became convinced that Jon and Dany would be the key players at the end of this series, that they would either become lovers or fierce enemies. While there is still a serious question as to the nature of the Others, at this point I am expecting Jon and Dany to battle it out for the future of Westeros. And for the good of the realm, I think that Dany needs to die.

Don't get me wrong, I like Dany. She was the original heroine of this series, before her novella became the Dany chapters of A Game of Thrones. But she is apparently incapable of having children. While the source of that information is questionable, the horrific nature of her cursed and stillborn child supports that theory. Westeros has always been ruled by kings and queens, at least since the time of the Andals. So who would be Dany's successor? Nobody. If she conquered Westeros, there would be chaos as soon as she died. Even if she designated someone to succeed her, the lack of bloodties would weaken public support for that successor.

If an alternative political system were to arise, than maybe Dany could still be on the winning team. But that's not how she's running things now, and the only alternatives to hereditary monarchy in Westeros right now are the Brotherhood without Banners (anarchists?) and the sparrows (theocracy). The Brotherhood seems to have lost their way, and are rapidly evolving into bandits, while the sparrows seem to ruthless and intolerant to justly govern the people.

EDIT: actually, the wildlings also advocate anarchy, and by sheer population, they are now a force to be reckoned with, at least in the north. That's why Stannis wants to bring them under his control with a diplomatic marriage involving Jon Snow.

[Inkthinker]

Although it's entirel possible that magic could be enough to return her ability to bear children.

Nonetheless, I'm inclined to agree that she shouldn't try to reinstall the Targaryean line upon the throne of Westeros... how that will actually play out remains to be seen.

[Inkthinker]

Gnh.

Nothing new to speak of on GRRM's official site... the latest update regarding the next book is from July, and the sample chapter is still the Tyrion POV (an excellent little glimpse, though).

Oh, George... damn your suspenseful ways!

I guess not everyone can spit out a little gem once a yearor so, like Pratchett.

:D

[pesmerga316]

Im completly sold that Jon is the heir to the Targaryans.. He is Rhaegar and Neds sisters child, read it carefully or look at all the theories and you will prob think the same

[Matthew E]

That's a popular theory, and it makes some sense, and it's certainly in the best traditions of fantasy... but I don't trust it.

In fact, someone proposed that theory to Parris (Martin's partner) at a con or someplace once, and her response was, "Do you really think George would be that obvious?"

[Shellhead]

Im completly sold that Jon is the heir to the Targaryans.. He is Rhaegar and Neds sisters child, read it carefully or look at all the theories and you will prob think the same

I've heard this theory before, and it makes sense. I still think that will mean a serious war between Jon and Dany, because she can't bear children, but she won't bend her knee to him, either.

[Inkthinker]

That's a popular theory, and it makes some sense, and it's certainly in the best traditions of fantasy... but I don't trust it.

In fact, someone proposed that theory to Parris (Martin's partner) at a con or someplace once, and her response was, "Do you really think George would be that obvious?"


See, I don't think that it's THAT obvious... I mean, all the clues for it were dropped early in the first book, and I don't know that they've been mentioned since. It's only because the Internet gives fans a chance to feed back and forth that it's become somewhat "obvious"... if you were just reading the books without discussion, you might not catch it so easily.

[Matthew E]

Mmm... I think it's a pretty stereotypical epic-fantasy kind of thing to happen. And I'm not saying that it isn't true. I just don't trust the idea. My pet idea is that Jon really is Ned's bastard son from some random woman he met while away at the wars. Nobody's expecting that.

[Gordon Smith]

Mmm... I think it's a pretty stereotypical epic-fantasy kind of thing to happen. And I'm not saying that it isn't true. I just don't trust the idea. My pet idea is that Jon really is Ned's bastard son from some random woman he met while away at the wars. Nobody's expecting that.

Ya know, that's what I want to see happen. That would be one helluva surprise for most readers. Jon as a long-lost child/heir of some Targaryen princeling would be so clichéd. That would be about the last thing I want to see from George in this story.

[Shellhead]

Ya know, that's what I want to see happen. That would be one helluva surprise for most readers. Jon as a long-lost child/heir of some Targaryen princeling would be so clichéd. That would be about the last thing I want to see from George in this story.

It seems inevitable, though. For such an epic series with so many major characters, a preposterous number of extreme events have involved Jon Snow. Martin could have spread the action around with a couple more characters on the level of Samwell Tarly, but instead most of the excitement up north has featured Jon. So I expect that he will continue to emerge as the most important character in the series. He's not my favorite, but Martin may yet win me over.

[Matthew E]

Hmm. I don't know. I can't shake the feeling that Bran is the most important. Obviously Jon and Dany are important, and I like them, but I'm still on Bran. Anyway, Jon doesn't have to be a Targaryen to be important.

[Inkthinker]

Mmm... I think it's a pretty stereotypical epic-fantasy kind of thing to happen. And I'm not saying that it isn't true. I just don't trust the idea. My pet idea is that Jon really is Ned's bastard son from some random woman he met while away at the wars. Nobody's expecting that.

So like... Ned was telling the truth?

What a twist!! :D

[Shellhead]

Hmm. I don't know. I can't shake the feeling that Bran is the most important. Obviously Jon and Dany are important, and I like them, but I'm still on Bran. Anyway, Jon doesn't have to be a Targaryen to be important.

Bran has the potential to control a dragon. That may become a pivotal plot point later on. I can see all of the Stark kids having a huge impact at some point late in this series. Sansa will reveal herself and upset Littlefinger's plans at some point, probably in a way that also causes a serious shift in power in the Arryn lands and the north, depending on who she marries. Arya will probably kill somebody very important, and they will never see it coming. Jon, of course, will probably end up as King of Westeros.

[Zelgadis]

Reading A Clash of Kings currently and this is some of the best fantasy I have read. I think the the red mage is awesome, killing Renly with a shadow badass. The thing I like about A Song of Fire and Ice is that magic is rare unlike most fantasy books so it makes it special when it comes into play.

[Shellhead]

Now that I've caught up on my reading, I've been able to talk with friends about A Feast for Crows. And now I've got a couple of minor theories/predictions:

1. That missing gaoler, the one with the old Highgarden gold coin hidden under his privy, is one of Varys the Spider's many disguises. That's why he was rarely at his post near the dark cells, and why Varys had the opportunity to explore the secret passages so thoroughly.

2. Clegane, or at least his body, will return in the next book, as part of some Frankenstein-style abomination that Qyburn assembled from the various people that he tortured to death.

3. Jaime will die fighting as Cersei's champion in a trial by combat.

[Michael P]

Now that I've caught up on my reading, I've been able to talk with friends about A Feast for Crows. And now I've got a couple of minor theories/predictions:

1. That missing gaoler, the one with the old Highgarden gold coin hidden under his privy, is one of Varys the Spider's many disguises. That's why he was rarely at his post near the dark cells, and why Varys had the opportunity to explore the secret passages so thoroughly.

2. Clegane, or at least his body, will return in the next book, as part of some Frankenstein-style abomination that Qyburn assembled from the various people that he tortured to death.

3. Jaime will die fighting as Cersei's champion in a trial by combat.
Have you finished AFfC yet? 'Cause at least one of those looks not too damn likely by the end.

Oh, and we probably won't see anything at King's Landing in the next book, since it'll be covering the North and the Free Cities.

[Zelgadis]

Does anyone think Eddard Stark is really alive? I mean, in the first book Sansa said the head didn't look like her father's.

[Donald M.]

Does anyone think Eddard Stark is really alive?

No.


I mean, in the first book Sansa said the head didn't look like her father's.

Probably because heads look a bit different chopped off and stuck on pikes than they do attached to the neck of a living person.

[Fenris]

Semi-kinda-on-topic:

Has anyone read Tuf Voyaging (http://www.amazon.com/Tuf-Voyaging-George-R-Martin/dp/1592220053), the science fiction collection Martin did before ASoI&F?

It's about an eccentric interstellar trader who happens upon a long-lost spaceship with advanced biological tools; so he becomes an "ecological engineer," and goes about the galaxy solving complex bioproblems.

The stories delve into mythology (as analogy and theme, not in the mystical sense) and Tuf himself remains an enigma. But the main attraction of the stories is the problems themselves, and how they're solved.

[Tobias March]

Semi-kinda-on-topic:

Has anyone read Tuf Voyaging (http://www.amazon.com/Tuf-Voyaging-George-R-Martin/dp/1592220053), the science fiction collection Martin did before ASoI&F?

It's about an eccentric interstellar trader who happens upon a long-lost spaceship with advanced biological tools; so he becomes an "ecological engineer," and goes about the galaxy solving complex bioproblems.

The stories delve into mythology (as analogy and theme, not in the mystical sense) and Tuf himself remains an enigma. But the main attraction of the stories is the problems themselves, and how they're solved.

Haven't read anything else by Martin save for Fevre Dream, but a friend continually recommends his Wildcards series to me.

I'm going to crack open Mike Resnick's "Will the last person to leave the planet shut off the sun", first I think.

[Gordon Smith]

Does anyone think Eddard Stark is really alive? I mean, in the first book Sansa said the head didn't look like her father's.

Highly, highly unlikely, but, for the record, we did not see Ned Stark actually die. Arya actually looked away at the critical moment as he was about to be beheaded, so Ned's death, although strongly implied, was not actually shown to the readers, and, of course, Sansa did not recognize the head said to be his. Hence, we cannot be totally certain Eddard Stark is truly dead, although I would be terribly surprised if he were revealled to be alive at this point.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Highly, highly unlikely, but, for the record, we did not see Ned Stark actually die. Arya actually looked away at the critical moment as he was about to be beheaded, so Ned's death, although strongly implied, was not actually shown to the readers, and, of course, Sansa did not recognize the head said to be his. Hence, we cannot be totally certain Eddard Stark is truly dead, although I would be terribly surprised if he were revealled to be alive at this point.

Yeah, I was wondering some at the end of the first book, but at this point, the chances of his still being alive seem pretty remote. Some people have asked "Why, then, emphasize Arya not actually seeing the execution, or Sansa not recognizing the head as his, if not to hint that we were misled about the execution?" I tend to think this is more a commentary on people not always wanting to believe unpleasant things.

Time will tell, I guess.

[Inkthinker]

Arya didn't see it, but she DID see her father on the platform. Hundreds of other people DID see him get beheaded, incuding people who knew him to recognize him. Sansa's comment serves to illustrate the reality of a decomposing head that's been dipped in hot tar.

Eddard Stark is dead. I'll stake whatever you like on it.

Ned = dead.

[Roquefort Raider]

Ned = dead.

That's the way I see it. Ned being alive would be a cop-out on the scale of "Aunt May didn't really die".

[cactusmaac]

I was thinking of historical characters the ASOIAF people were based on.

Tyrion is obviously Richard III. Robert seems to be based on Edward IV, the popular, macho king with a disliked wife (Cersei\Elizabeth Woodville) who deposed Henry VI (Aerys). Also some elements of Henry VIII.

Dany might be Charles II, an exiled monarch called back after the homeland descends into successional chaos following the death of the chief rebel. Tywin would be Edward I (from Braveheart) an immensely ruthless and cold fighter who nonetheless deeply loved his wife while despising his son.

Joffrey could be Edward VI, the boy-king whose rule saw much unrest and dissension before he died early. Littlefinger would be Cardinal Wolseley, the wheeling-dealing power behind the throne of Henry VIII's time.

[Matthew E]

Semi-kinda-on-topic:

Has anyone read Tuf Voyaging (http://www.amazon.com/Tuf-Voyaging-George-R-Martin/dp/1592220053), the science fiction collection Martin did before ASoI&F?

It's about an eccentric interstellar trader who happens upon a long-lost spaceship with advanced biological tools; so he becomes an "ecological engineer," and goes about the galaxy solving complex bioproblems.

The stories delve into mythology (as analogy and theme, not in the mystical sense) and Tuf himself remains an enigma. But the main attraction of the stories is the problems themselves, and how they're solved.

I read it and liked it very much. It takes quite a writer to make his protagonist omnipotent and still be able to tell a good story, and Martin manages it with Tuf.

[eypcrew]

I got a free Hardcover of Tuf Voyaging this summer, I couldn't get through it.




On another note....has anyone heard any news about "A Dance with Dragons". The last update I saw was on GRRM's page from the end of october.

[Surt]

Amazon had it projected at october 1st 2007 at one point. I can't find it right now. Don't look for it until late next year, though.

[Valmore]

Amazon had it projected at october 1st 2007 at one point. I can't find it right now. Don't look for it until late next year, though.

You really can't go by any online retailer's projection of release date. I bought into that waiting for AFFC and continually had my hopes dashed.

If there's ever an update on when the next book is done, it'll be on GRRM's website.

[eypcrew]

How is the Hedge Night? I picked up the comic adaption this week and I like it quite a bit.

[Ben Akers]

The Hedge Knight is great. The adaptation was great, but there's nothing quite like Martin himself telling the story.

[Mike Smash!]

The Hedge Knights and its sequel, the Sworn Sword, were excellent stories and very fun. Lighter in tone that the rest of ASoIaF, but they're pre-civil war as well.

And they sometimes have the coolest continuity tie-ins with the main series, especially in the last two books.

[Jmacq1]

On the topic of Jon Snow as Targaryen heir:

God I hope not. As soon as Jon loses his "bastard/underdog" status he's probably not long for the fictional world. ;)

After all, Martin seems to root for the underdogs himself (Jon, Tyrion, and Dany).

[Joshua Pantalleresco]

I love this series. It's very rare that good fantasy feels so real. Martin writes with a substance I wish I had in my own stories. My favorites so far have been Tyrion, Jon and Dany. I'm looking forward to Dance of Dragons. Hopefully it'll be out soon.

He's also a great guy. I've had the pleasure of meeting George RR Martin twice. The first time was entirely by accident. I was in a card game tournament until I saw that Martin himself would be there (he was a last minute guest). Anyways, I got in, heard him read a bit from Feast of Crows (before it came out) and got to meet him. Genuinely good guy and still seems very down to earth. I'm hoping to meet him again when the fifth book comes out.

JP

[TransformersFan]

I actually picked up the first novel of this series. Ive never gotten around to it though.

I picked up Tad Williams "Dragonbone Chair" novel, because I wanted something a little more Tolkienish, whymsical and magical. I have read that Martins books are a more realistic Fantasy series that is grittier and serious. Apprently there arent any monsters, magic, or fun creatures.

Ill read it one day.

[Joshua Pantalleresco]

I actually picked up the first novel of this series. Ive never gotten around to it though.

I picked up Tad Williams "Dragonbone Chair" novel, because I wanted something a little more Tolkienish, whymsical and magical. I have read that Martins books are a more realistic Fantasy series that is grittier and serious. Apprently there arent any monsters, magic, or fun creatures.

Ill read it one day.

NOT true. There are monsters, magic AND fun creatures in SoIaF...it's just not as pronounced right away.

JP

[Subotai]

How is the Hedge Night? I picked up the comic adaption this week and I like it quite a bit.

Isn't the sequel to this coming out pretty soon?

[Mike Smash!]

Isn't the sequel to this coming out pretty soon?


The sequel, the Sworn Sword, came out a couple years ago. But a third story starring the characters Dunk and Egg is in the works.

[Jmacq1]

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/31268

HBO is making ASOIAF into an original series....1 book per season.

This makes me happy.

[Matthew E]

It'll make me happy if Martin can actually finish the books in time for HBO to keep to that schedule.

[Jmacq1]

It'll make me happy if Martin can actually finish the books in time for HBO to keep to that schedule.

Well, if you figure that it'll probably be a year or two before it makes it to the screen, and HBO tends to take about a year+ between seasons of its' original shows. That gives Martin oh, say...6-7 years to finish two more books (since #5 is supposedly nearly done already)?

[Matthew E]

So there's a small chance.

[Inkthinker]

Well... if anyone CAN do it well, it's HBO. I'm always a little leery about adaptations of beloved works, though.

[Shellhead]

Offhand, I can only think of one of Martin's work that was adapted for tv or movie, and that was the first story in Tuf Voyaging. The movie version was called Nightflyers, and it was a pretty decent science-fiction movie.

[Erebus]

Just started reading the series about a month ago. I'm currently halfway through a Clash of Kings. Its quickly becoming one of my favorite book series. Tyrion and Jon are awesome.

[Inkthinker]

Word straight from the man himself. (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/news.html)

Martin mentions that his current favorite TV addiction is HBO's Rome, and that he's chosen HBO because they can offer him the quality he desires. Since he's scripting at least one episode per season and he promises it won't be an "adaptation" like the Sci-Fi Earthsea, I'm feeling a little more hyped. One hopes that they'll give Martin at least some respect and get things looking the way he's wanted, and that sounds very cool indeed.

[leonaozaki]

Word straight from the man himself. (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/news.html)

Martin mentions that his current favorite TV addiction is HBO's Rome, and that he's chosen HBO because they can offer him the quality he desires. Since he's scripting at least one episode per season and he promises it won't be an "adaptation" like the Sci-Fi Earthsea, I'm feeling a little more hyped. One hopes that they'll give Martin at least some respect and get things looking the way he's wanted, and that sounds very cool indeed.

Somehow the fact that Martin is addicted to ROME doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

rob

[Matt Linton]

I think the most difficult thing about adapting the books is the ages of the main characters. Dany is 13 when she's married, as is Sansa. Bran was 6 or 7 when he got thrown from the tower. Even though it's HBO, I wouldn't be surprised if the characters are aged quite a bit, and I don't know how well that will work.

[Zelgadis]

Looks like people who wanted a TV show got their wish.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117957532.html?categoryid=1236&cs=1&p=0

[Mia]

I think the most difficult thing about adapting the books is the ages of the main characters. Dany is 13 when she's married, as is Sansa. Bran was 6 or 7 when he got thrown from the tower. Even though it's HBO, I wouldn't be surprised if the characters are aged quite a bit, and I don't know how well that will work.

I think it will work well. No one objected to Paul Atreidies in Dune being a 20 something guy as opposed to the 15 year old he was in the novel. I think that what will count is the acting ability of the stars. And I have no doubt that some character parts will be morphed into one. Though probably not the main ones. I really am happy that this is being turned into a long mini series though as opposed to a big screen film. Or a four or six hour mini on the main tv networks.

[Inkthinker]

They'll probably address it by not addressing it... I would still expect Bran to be very young, certainly pre-adolescent (so maybe 9 at most), and I would still expect Dany to be young-looking, but not for them to make an issue of it. It's important to her character, though, that she be a sort of virgin princess sold off to the barbarians, so she can't be a fully mature adult.

It's all speculation on our part... let's wait and see how they start casting actors, and then we can start casting stones.

:D

[Karl J. Barnes]

They'll probably address it by not addressing it... I would still expect Bran to be very young, certainly pre-adolescent (so maybe 9 at most), and I would still expect Dany to be young-looking, but not for them to make an issue of it. It's important to her character, though, that she be a sort of virgin princess sold off to the barbarians, so she can't be a fully mature adult.

It's all speculation on our part... let's wait and see how they start casting actors, and then we can start casting stones.

:D

*puts down a really nasty stone*Oh...okay...

[Jmacq1]

They'll either age the kids a little bit (+3-5 years), or get a lot of young-looking actors/actresses to fill the parts. Bran isn't so much a problem, as it's just a matter of having a bad thing happen to a young child. But most of the older kids run into situations involving nudity, sex, etc... well before they're "legal" by today's standards.

I don't think they'll do too much damage to the "spirit" of the books if the older "kids" are closer to 17-21 instead of 12-17. The ages of the kids generally are more a reflection of medieval standards of "adulthood" to help give the novels a historical feel rather than a necessary plot point. Most of the elder "kids" pretty much act like adults, anyhow (with a few exceptions).

And thanks for mentioning "Dune"....now I can't get the image of James McAvoy as Jon Snow out of my head. :p

[Roquefort Raider]

The only thing that has me worried is that a few years from now good George may write on his blog:

"Sorry, it's STILL not finished. With all the work I've had to do on the screenplay of the latest episodes in season 2 of ASOIAF, I've had little time to polish the final chapters of A dance with dragons".

[Jmacq1]

I had that thought, too. But it seems that Martin's only planning/insisting on writing at least one episode a season (or at least I heard that somewhere). The rest he likely just reviews/signs off on.

So it shouldn't take up -too- much of his time. But I suppose we'll see. And once again, it'll probably be 2 or 3 years before it ever makes it to the screen, so we should at least have A Dance With Dragons out by then, and quite possibly at least some work on the next book.

And once again, that gives HBO 5 seasons of material to work with (assuming they follow through and do the whole series, which is iffy given HBO's track record on expensive series). Since HBO generally does 1 year between seasons (if not more), that's another 5 years of time for Martin to work.

So barring another "Feast for Crows" situation, I'm fairly optimistic he'll finish off the series before the TV adaptation gets to that point.

I wouldn't bet my life on it though. ;)

[Blueferret]

Somehow the fact that Martin is addicted to ROME doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

rob

HE can take the actor playing Octavian and let him be Robb Stark. The kid is freakishly good.

[Nick Soapdish]

The sequel, the Sworn Sword, came out a couple years ago. But a third story starring the characters Dunk and Egg is in the works.

The Sworn Sword is also coming out as a comic sometime this year.

[DrDoomX]

Ah yes, do you guys think we will see a "Dance of Dragons" before the end of this year or early next year? Hmmm...according to his blog he hints that he is near completion and had some good days to work on Dance...

By the way, here is a guy who put an audition of John Snow on You tube...enjoy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjrTGe9Gh5g&mode=related&search=

[Dreadstar]

I'm about halfway through book 3 in this... enormous monster. I vacilate between ecstasy with some of the writing and wishing that he'd cut a chapter down to bare bones.

I figure I'll be done with book 4 by mid-June.

All I have to say thus far (and I don't want to read the last 4 or 5 pages due to spoilers) is that I hope beyond hope that some of these people suffer fates worse than death. I may rebel if the 4th book makes Cersei a sympathetic character. That'd be *almost* as bad as what happened to Starling in Hannibal in my mind.

[Inkthinker]

Martin does some pretty awful stuff to the bad guys. Does some pretty awful stuff to the good guys, too.

[Inkthinker]

Whup... double-post.

At any rate, I feel somewhat certain that redemption is not in Cersei's stars. Jaime, perhaps, Tyrion even... but not Cersei. That bitch is goin' down.

[Dreadstar]

Whup... double-post.

At any rate, I feel somewhat certain that redemption is not in Cersei's stars. Jaime, perhaps, Tyrion even... but not Cersei. That bitch is goin' down.

In my mind (and from the perspective of only 2 and a half books) Tyrion requires no redemption. He's just a man who happens to be related to 3 of the book's worst villains; his father, his sister, and his nephew. Even his turn as Hand was surprisingly even-handed.

In fact, aside from a couple of the Stark children, he may be my favorite character in the book thus far.

Sorry if this has already been hashed over, but I'm not reading a lot of this thread until I've finished book four.

[Michael P]

In my mind (and from the perspective of only 2 and a half books) Tyrion requires no redemption. He's just a man who happens to be related to 3 of the book's worst villains; his father, his sister, and his nephew. Even his turn as Hand was surprisingly even-handed.


That *might* change once you finish book 3.

And without spoilers, I enjoyed very much what Martin did with Cersei in book 4.

[Gordon Smith]

I'm about halfway through book 3 in this... enormous monster. I vacilate between ecstasy with some of the writing and wishing that he'd cut a chapter down to bare bones.

I figure I'll be done with book 4 by mid-June.

All I have to say thus far (and I don't want to read the last 4 or 5 pages due to spoilers) is that I hope beyond hope that some of these people suffer fates worse than death. I may rebel if the 4th book makes Cersei a sympathetic character. That'd be *almost* as bad as what happened to Starling in Hannibal in my mind.

No need to worry. Cersei doesn't comes off looking like a remotely sympathetic character in A Feast of Crows.

[Roquefort Raider]

True. However... I was disappointed by Martin's decision not to give us a resaonable point of view for Cersei. Despite all her misdeeds, I would have accepted (and even enjoyed) a Cersei shown to be driven to atrocities by of an extreme sense of protectiveness for her children, something that would have been understandable given how she, as a child, had always been used as a political tool. Besides, she was already shown to be pathologically overprotective.

However, unlike what had been done with initially unlikeable characters like Jaime, Martin decided to give us Cersei the crazy bitch from Hell. No hidden motive, no unexpected twist. What you see is what you get. It's his call, of course, since she's his character, and well... I guess not all characters can be as richly three dimensional as Tyrion. Still, I felt a bit let down because there was no surprise there.

[Valmore]

In my mind (and from the perspective of only 2 and a half books) Tyrion requires no redemption. He's just a man who happens to be related to 3 of the book's worst villains; his father, his sister, and his nephew. Even his turn as Hand was surprisingly even-handed.

In fact, aside from a couple of the Stark children, he may be my favorite character in the book thus far.

Sorry if this has already been hashed over, but I'm not reading a lot of this thread until I've finished book four.

It's alright - you can join the Tyrion Lannister club of Mike Smash and myself. He's the most consistently interesting character in the books.

[Mike Smash!]

True. However... I was disappointed by Martin's decision not to give us a resaonable point of view for Cersei. Despite all her misdeeds, I would have accepted (and even enjoyed) a Cersei shown to be driven to atrocities by of an extreme sense of protectiveness for her children, something that would have been understandable given how she, as a child, had always been used as a political tool. Besides, she was already shown to be pathologically overprotective.

However, unlike what had been done with initially unlikeable characters like Jaime, Martin decided to give us Cersei the crazy bitch from Hell. No hidden motive, no unexpected twist. What you see is what you get. It's his call, of course, since she's his character, and well... I guess not all characters can be as richly three dimensional as Tyrion. Still, I felt a bit let down because there was no surprise there.I wasn't let down. Not every POV character has to be sympathetic or a good guy.

I remember that even with the crap he went through, POV Theon Greyjoy was never purely sympathetic. He was a creep and he did terrible things just to try to prove to his father that he wasn't weak -- all the while unwilling to realize that his family would never think of him as anything but.

The twist we got with Cersei was pretty surprising only at the scale we got it. Before "Feast" I had no idea how utterly paranoid and incompetent Cersei was or the fear that she had for Tyrion. And "Feast" gave us a glimpse at a Cersei without the moderating influence of her father's tight leash and how completely self destructive she was -- and how different she and Jaime truly are.

She surrounded herself with witless and worthless "yes men" and sociopaths (who knows what Qyburn is doing to people in the dungeons.. Gah! The stuff that even Martin won't show on-screen) and managed to flush down the toilet every advantage she had until she destroyed herself. The twist being that Tyrion was loathed by the people of King's Landing, but was a far more effective ruler and did so much with so little.

And in the end, she fucks up so badly that even Jaime, the only person who truly loved her, has washed his hands of her insanity. What we learned is that Jaime grew up and Cersei didn't.

It isn't necessary to lose a great villain when you get into their heads. Sometimes - like Jaime - we learn that we've underestimated someone or misjudged them. Or...like Cersei and Theon -- that we haven't judged them harshly enough.

[Mike Smash!]

It's alright - you can join the Tyrion Lannister club of Mike Smash and myself. He's the most consistently interesting character in the books.HALF MAN! HALF MAN!

I have never rooted for a fictional character the way that I root for Tyrion. He's hilarious, moral, brilliant and wonderfully flawed. He's basically a man with unlimited potential that was born into a terrible family with a body that leaves him the target of open abuse even by his servants and has fought back against it his entire life by his wits and sense of humor alone. And it's left him a far more compassionate and decent person than anyone raised by Tywin Lannister has any right to be. At his core, Tyrion is a character who beyond all things wants someone...anyone... to simply love him. And its a desire that's left him stabbed in the back, betrayed by a family that he's got a fierce unrequited loyalty for...

[Dreadstar]

Almost finished with book 3, and book 4 is sitting on my nightstand beckoning me.


All I can say is that I have become like Arya. After I close the book, make a list in my head as to who deserves painful death. I just added Walder Frey and Roose Bolton. But it seems that I may be taking Jaime Lannister off it. I'm not sure I like that.

"Tywin, Cersei, Walder, Roose, the Mountain, Mellisandre, Joffrey, the Bastard, Littlefinger and Theon."




...I know I'm forgeting someone.

[Valmore]

Rereading the last couple of books, I've come to completely love how Martin has the Lannister twins going in completely opposite directions.

Cersei becoming way too bold even as she grew paranoid has been so well done. Add to the fact that the throne is adding things to her that she had hated in Robert - she's drinking a lot, and she's gaining weight, two things that plauged Robert. And by not trusting anyone, including her allies, she's played into their hands. None of her "shrewd" moves have really worked to her advantage, as evidenced in the ending of book four.

Whereas Jamie is starting to act smarter, most likely from having to face the fact that his days of skewring his way through things are over. His bloodless takeover of Riverrun was brilliant, despite losing the Blackfish. Heck, he even has managed to keep all of his oathes within reason. Which is funny, considering the only oath he's really ever broken was in killing a mad king who was horrible for Westeros. He's not as clever as Tyrion, but he's much more so than Cersei.

I wish Martin would freakin' finish book five so I can read about Tyrion and Jon, damnit.

[Inkthinker]

I think it's fairly obvious that Jaime will be skewering left-handed, eventualy.

[Valmore]

I think it's fairly obvious that Jaime will be skewering left-handed, eventualy.

Actually no, I don't think he'll be skewering anyone. I think he'll eventually become passable with his left hand, but he'll never even come close to being his former self. As it is, he's only training with one person, Ilyn Payne. We don't really know exactly how good he is a swordsperson for certain, especially since Jamie was a complete beginner with his left hand coming to him. In fact, he was only chosen because he can't talk and give away the fact that Jamie sucks fighting left handed.

Jamie may eventually be able to fight again, but to be the legend he was? I'm not thinking it so.

[Inkthinker]

I don't think he'll be legendarily good again, but I'm sure at some point he's going to be forced into a fight by someone who thinks that a one-handed Jaime Lannister is an easy target, and that someone is going to be sorely surprised.

Martin's a good writer, he's not going to put the reader through this buildup concerning Jaime's secret lefty training unless it results in a payoff further down the line.

[Valmore]

I don't think he'll be legendarily good again, but I'm sure at some point he's going to be forced into a fight by someone who thinks that a one-handed Jaime Lannister is an easy target, and that someone is going to be sorely surprised.

Martin's a good writer, he's not going to put the reader through this buildup concerning Jaime's secret lefty training unless it results in a payoff further down the line.

Or, knowing Martin, he might make Jamie think he's good enough to fight again, only to get his ass handed to him and get killed. Could go either way, considering Martin has no problem killing off major characters and players.

[Inkthinker]

Mmmm... possible, but if we're laying down Vegas odds I'm still putting my money on Jaime.

Unless he's up against another main, heroic character, such as Jon or Bran.

Ooooo... Jaime v. Bran.

Actually, given Jaime's slow but certain change of attitudes, I expect that if he meets again with Bran Stark he'll seek the boy's forgiveness, if anything.

[Blueferret]

I think, long term, that Jaimie's role will be just as important on Jon's or Dany's to the realms future. Martin's doing an incredible job of making him a likeable character, considering where he came from. The best part about Jaimie, IMO, is that he still has a tendancy to lapse back into being an ass from time to time.

Hell, I'm still waiting to see how and when Theon shows back up.

[Valmore]

Mmmm... possible, but if we're laying down Vegas odds I'm still putting my money on Jaime.

Unless he's up against another main, heroic character, such as Jon or Bran.

Ooooo... Jaime v. Bran.

Actually, given Jaime's slow but certain change of attitudes, I expect that if he meets again with Bran Stark he'll seek the boy's forgiveness, if anything.

Sure enough, I'd probably bet with you, but I wouldn't bet the whole farm or anything. Of course, the good thing is it appears Jamie's using his head, bluffing where he can and acting gently when he needs to. Even when he gets good enough, I'm pretty certain he's going to consider who he's going up against before grabbing his sword.

So I don't think he'll rashly jump into a fray with one of the great knights left, whoever those are.

I think, long term, that Jaimie's role will be just as important on Jon's or Dany's to the realms future. Martin's doing an incredible job of making him a likeable character, considering where he came from. The best part about Jaimie, IMO, is that he still has a tendancy to lapse back into being an ass from time to time.

Hell, I'm still waiting to see how and when Theon shows back up.

Well Jamie is a Lannister. I don't think he'll ever totally rise above his family's arrogance, but he seems to be a lot smarter than he's been. I don't think he'd toss Bran Stark off a castle window now.

Theon's up North somewhere, I think a captive of the Bolton's if I remember correctly, though I'm not certain.

[Xevious]

I'm halfway through the second book and am in love with what I'm reading so far. I switch between reading at home and listening to the audiobook at work. I started out listening to the audible reading, but I found the books for the blind version at my library and that's much better. the audible listen isn't bad, but the NLS reader has more voices so it's easier to tell characters apart.

[Chase]

I figured out a resolution to my "What am I going to do after Feast For Crows" dilemma by buying the first volume of GRRM's collection of short stories entitled Dreamsongs (hardcover <3).

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