JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #0 - serious spoiler regarding Superman! [Archive]

Steve Brady

07-19-2006, 05:01 PM

Ah, that was the point of those "yesterday" and "tomorrow" windows.

I was at work reading it - I could concentrate only so much... :p

No, I read it incorrectly at first too, and got all mad that they were doing a giant retcon just to fit the movies. Which was really upsetting because after about page 3 I was all "Meltzer = God."

Then I got to the Batman Is Dead one and figured it out.

I don't know how it could be any clearer then again I know people who think Pulp Fiction is a linear movie and hate it because Vinnie Vegas comes back later without explanation after being killed by Bruce Willis.

It can be rough for relative newbies for myself, who neither know that (1) Donna Troy once got married and (2) that Hal Jordan never did. And they did just have a big continuity event, after all.

aeastwic

07-20-2006, 08:17 PM

Maybe because I've only read DC for the past 3 years and some of the better trades and Showcases, but I only got 1/2 of what was in this book.

However, I think everything that was labeled tomorrow was either:

1. On an alternate Earth
2. A possible future

But I think that someday DC editorial is going to kill off Pa Kent, since they have killed him off in other places and it'll happen at some point.

Jack Zodiac

07-20-2006, 11:47 PM

http://www.newsarama.com/WWPhilly06/DC/ASSMCv6.jpg

It makes sense. He's always been old. They were an older couple when they found Clark, and he's at least thirty by now, so in-continuity the Kents should be in their eighties. There was a period of time in the Nineties and early this decade where people started portraying them as younger looking. It makes sense, though. They can't live forever. And, sadly, Superman doesn't have very much tragedy in his life, and the passing of a loved one isn't as contrived as other deaths they could have interjected into his life, like another fake-out Lois death, or Supergirl being killed. This one's the most logical and hard-hitting death for him. I'd been kicking around the idea myself for a while.

Anyway, yeah... some of those tomorrows look like they're going to happen. Like Hal getting married, Pa Kent dying, and Lex avenging his "son's" death.

Dr. Drake Ramoray

07-21-2006, 01:53 AM

Is this maybe some art from a future issue of All-Star Superman? That sure looks like Frank Q's art to me.

Jack Zodiac

07-21-2006, 10:24 AM

I don't know. It was posted in another thread about great comic book covers for the past year. It does look like his style used on the last five issues covers, though. So, I wouldn't doubt it.

CaptainAwesome

07-21-2006, 11:20 AM

I don't know. It was posted in another thread about great comic book covers for the past year. It does look like his style used on the last five issues covers, though. So, I wouldn't doubt it.
Its the cover to AS Superman #6. Pa Kent isnt dead. Hal Jordan isnt married. I felt completely underwhelmed by this issue of JLA, but then again I was just angry that they didnt reveal the new team. Maybe if I read it again I wont hate it so much.

Steve Brady

07-21-2006, 12:27 PM

I'd be fine if Pa died in the future. I'm an advocate of letting all the characters age.

I just didn't want it retconned into there.

MythicBrawn

07-21-2006, 02:09 PM

I have no problem with one, if not both, of the Kents being dead. DC is not walking but running back to the pre-CoIE DC universe.

Bored at 3:00AM

07-21-2006, 10:38 PM

I'm kinda baffled that DC is so intent on keeping Pa Kent alive in the Post-Infinite Crisis history. Why keep him around? Just keep Ma Kent alive to be Clark's touchstone in Smallville. Having both foster parents alive doesn't really serve any purpose that I can see and having Superman lose his foster father just as he's entering adulthood is such a great part of the Superman myth that virtually every incarnation of the character has included. The only one I can think of that doesn't have Jonathan Kent dying is the Timm cartoon.

cactusmaac

07-22-2006, 03:40 AM

Lois & Clark.

Dr. Drake Ramoray

07-22-2006, 11:37 PM

All the mainstream (meaning; not elseworlds) DC books since Byrne's Man of Steel. That's around 20 years of comics that Johnathan Kent has been around for.

Bored at 3:00AM

07-23-2006, 12:14 PM

I'd forgotten about Lois & Clark, or rather my mind had blotted it out of my mind because it was so mind-numbingly terrible.

And, yes, I know the comics have kept Jonathan Kent alive since the Byrne retcon. The entire premise of the thread is based upon that. I was talking about versions of Superman outside the comics.

Aside from the Timm cartoon and (shudder) Lois & Clark, have there been any versions of the Superman story in which Jonathan Kent didn't die?

Sean Whitmore

07-23-2006, 01:04 PM

Aside from the Timm cartoon and (shudder) Lois & Clark, have there been any versions of the Superman story in which Jonathan Kent didn't die?

Does the Superboy series count?

SEAN

Bored at 3:00AM

07-23-2006, 01:18 PM

Does the Superboy series count?

SEAN

Since Jonathan Kent's death has traditionally been the catalyst that turns Supes from boy to man, nope.

I have no problem with Pa Kent in Superboy stories, but he seems pretty redundant for Superman. I know some feel differently and I respect that, but keeping him alive removes a crucial piece of the mythology for me. The character needs to be balanced out with a few moments of tragedy and loss, otherwise you end up with a hero who is perfect in every way with a perfect life, a perfect family and a perfect wife. None of which is very interesting to a lot of readers, myself included. I'm not interested in reading about a Superman who has everything he wants.

Superman's hope and optimism are strengthened when it's colored by a little bit of sadness and tragedy, much like Batman's darkness and tragedy are strengthened by lighter elements like his sense of humor. These characters need both the light and the dark to work. That yin & yang.

Sean Whitmore

07-23-2006, 01:33 PM

The character needs to be balanced out with a few moments of tragedy and loss, otherwise you end up with a hero who is perfect in every way with a perfect life, a perfect family and a perfect wife. None of which is very interesting to a lot of readers, myself included. I'm not interested in reading about a Superman who has everything he wants.

I realize I'm probably the minority in this, but I like the fact that Superman has a nearly perfect life. If for no other reason than its a change from EVERY other hero, who has equal parts triumph or tragedy (in most cases, more of the latter). And if anyone's gonna have the perfect life, it should be Superman.

Superman's hope and optimism are strengthened when it's colored by a little bit of sadness and tragedy, much like Batman's darkness and tragedy are strengthened by lighter elements like his sense of humor. These characters need both the light and the dark to work. That yin & yang.

I might argue that his biological father's death provides enough of the dark. Some people tend to write it off as the loss of someone he never knew, but in many interpretations of the mythology, Krypton and Jor-el remained big parts of Superman's adult life. In the movies, obviously, Supes is all about Jor-el. And Smallville is going through its father issues that started with "My real daddy didn't want me", then "My real daddy doesn't understand me", and will likely end up with some semblance of, "My real daddy loved me."

SEAN

Steve Brady

07-23-2006, 04:22 PM

I would have thought the destruction of his civilization was angst enough B)

Take away Superman's (human) family and you've got Martian Manhunter. And we've already got one of those B)

Jack Zodiac

07-23-2006, 04:26 PM

Well, like he said in the "tomorrow" scene, he never knew his homeworld, so their death didn't mean anything more to him than being the last of his race. His father raised him from infancy and taught him all the morals he has today. That's more of an impact than the death of his world.

I think that killing Pa Kent would be a good idea in that it would further develope Clark's character. As an adult approaching his forties, he's going to have to face losing his parents soon. In the Golden Age, they were both so old when they found him that they both died before he even became Superman, which didn't leave too much room for their deaths to impact him in adulthood. Here, he's been Superman for about a decade. His father's death would hit him harder now than before.

Steve Brady

07-23-2006, 07:56 PM

Well, like he said in the "tomorrow" scene, he never knew his homeworld, so their death didn't mean anything more to him than being the last of his race.

Which is funny, because for all the Silver Age stuff they're re-introducing, Supes was all about the Krypton and "Rao's beard" back then, but they're not going that way.

Jack Zodiac

07-23-2006, 09:10 PM

He's been on that kick for at least the past ten years. "Great Rao!" this and that. I think it's time they knocked that crap off anyway.

chriskenny

07-23-2006, 10:03 PM

Sean Whitmore

07-23-2006, 10:07 PM

Perfect Life = No Drama

*shrugs* Brainiac trying to destroy the city is drama enough for me.

SEAN

Bored at 3:00AM

07-23-2006, 10:25 PM

I would have thought the destruction of his civilization was angst enough B)

Take away Superman's (human) family and you've got Martian Manhunter. And we've already got one of those B)

Who said anything about taking away his family? I'm only talking about his foster father, that's it. I think it's important for Clark to face his foster father's death prior to becoming Superman to drive home the idea that, even with all his powers, he can't save everyone.

Bored at 3:00AM

07-23-2006, 10:41 PM

I realize I'm probably the minority in this, but I like the fact that Superman has a nearly perfect life. If for no other reason than its a change from EVERY other hero, who has equal parts triumph or tragedy (in most cases, more of the latter). And if anyone's gonna have the perfect life, it should be Superman.

SEAN

I'm not talking about equal parts tragedy and triumpth, I'm just talking about some tragedy in an otherwise perfect life. Losing parents he never knew isn't enough. There needs to be a sense of loss that hits closer to home that makes the death of his birth parents resonate even more.

And, if you look at the original character and the most popular and sucessful later versions of the character, none of them had perfect lives. He didn't get the girl and he didn't get to save those closest to him, his foster parents. That yin & yang was there.

Again, while a it may be appealing to give Superman everything he wants because he's such a good, decent man, it doesn't make for a particularly interesting character that readers want to read about. There's a reason why so many people out there consider Superman boring. It's because they percieve him as so perfect that there's no drama. He can do everything. He can't be hurt so there's no reason to root for him.

The thing that people miss is that you don't hurt Superman physically, you hurt him emotionally and taking away any tragedies from his life undermines that. You end up with a character who is not only pefect physically, but whose whole life is perfect and that doesn't appeal to a lot of readers.

Again, this is not about turning Superman into a dark character, but there has to be enough elements of tragedy and loss in there to balance things out.

curefreak

07-24-2006, 01:24 AM

did anyone else get choked up when they showed superman dead and bruces reaction?

curefreak

07-24-2006, 01:26 AM

also they showed wonder woman about to get married.. wha? when did this happen???

Yoda

07-24-2006, 07:27 AM

also they showed wonder woman about to get married.. wha? when did this happen???

Half the book has captions which say "tomorrow" thats a possible future event meant to highlight the interaction and friendship between the Trinity.

shaunyc56

07-24-2006, 07:48 AM

Did anyone else think that the "Tomorrow" scene w/ Clark and Diana in crime alley, was the Frank Miller DKR future of Batman?

Also was anyone intereseted in the Earth 2 tomorrow window, I thought it would be cool to see how that would be handled w/ a more modern sensability.

curefreak

07-24-2006, 10:19 AM

Half the book has captions which say "tomorrow" thats a possible future event meant to highlight the interaction and friendship between the Trinity.
ah thank you (feels stupid now)

mrc1214

07-24-2006, 10:26 AM

Half the book has captions which say "tomorrow" thats a possible future event meant to highlight the interaction and friendship between the Trinity.

i thought that was pretty cool how they did that. It will be interesting to see if that stuff happens in the future.

cactusmaac

07-30-2006, 04:36 PM

Since Jonathan Kent's death has traditionally been the catalyst that turns Supes from boy to man, nope.

I have no problem with Pa Kent in Superboy stories, but he seems pretty redundant for Superman. I know some feel differently and I respect that, but keeping him alive removes a crucial piece of the mythology for me. The character needs to be balanced out with a few moments of tragedy and loss, otherwise you end up with a hero who is perfect in every way with a perfect life, a perfect family and a perfect wife. None of which is very interesting to a lot of readers, myself included. I'm not interested in reading about a Superman who has everything he wants.

Superman's hope and optimism are strengthened when it's colored by a little bit of sadness and tragedy, much like Batman's darkness and tragedy are strengthened by lighter elements like his sense of humor. These characters need both the light and the dark to work. That yin & yang.

For what it's worth, Jonathan Kent will be a big part of Donner\Johns' run according to their Wizard interview.

I'm not talking about equal parts tragedy and triumpth, I'm just talking about some tragedy in an otherwise perfect life. Losing parents he never knew isn't enough. There needs to be a sense of loss that hits closer to home that makes the death of his birth parents resonate even more.

I think the destruction of Krypton, extinction of his race, death of his natural parents and the issues of being the last survivor are tragedy enough. He has a Fortress full of reminders of Krypton and personality engrams of Jor-El and Lara, and the knowledge that he'll always be something of an alien on an Earth, and not just one of the guys like he'd be back home.

Sean Whitmore

07-30-2006, 04:39 PM

For what it's worth, Jonathan Kent will be a big part of Donner\Johns' run according to their Wizard interview.

Hope his will is up-to-date...

SEAN

cactusmaac

07-30-2006, 04:52 PM

Oh, I think it's going to happen. Meltzer said that Didio told him one of the future scenes was something DC had already been planning. Jonathan Kent's death seems the most likely of the lot.

I don't think the death is really needed to make the Superman character work better. The most value it has is in showing how a Clark Kent who's still maturing deals with it, as they're doing in Smallville. Outside of that, in the comics that stuff can only be done retrospectively which substantially diminishes its' usefulness.

Personally I think Superman Returns would have worked better if they'd have Jonathan around to counsel Supes.

Sean Whitmore

07-30-2006, 04:59 PM

Ironically, Jonathon has outlived any of his purposes, dead or alive. He no longer needs to be his son's anchor to humanity, because Clark has been here forever now; he's as human as can be. And his death has missed any opportunity to teach Clark a message, because he's already learned a LONG time ago that he can't save everybody.

SEAN

cactusmaac

07-30-2006, 05:43 PM

Was he ever the anchor of Supes' humanity?

I always thought his role was being the moral compass and wise guide.

Apathy Boy

07-31-2006, 12:22 AM

Aside from the Timm cartoon and (shudder) Lois & Clark, have there been any versions of the Superman story in which Jonathan Kent didn't die?No. But those two shows, in addition to the comics and Smallville up to 2006, has represented 20 straight years where the public has seen a living Pa Kent. We've pretty much bred an entire generation of people who thought Pa Kent was still a vital part of Superman's life. Of course, that may have changed with the events of this year.

As for the comics, I agree that Pa Kent's redundant. But I don't see the point of bumping him off now. Pa Kent's death only has value if it comes before Clark becomes Superman; Pa Kent on his deathbed and telling a young Clark to do right is one of the iconic images of the character's story. But Pa Kent dying when Clark's an adult serves no purpose; it doesn't provide Clark with a moral compass or act as a source of inspiration, it just becomes a source of angst.

Though dollars to donuts that when the time comes, Zod's gonna have a hand in killing Pa.

Sean Whitmore

07-31-2006, 01:10 AM

Was he ever the anchor of Supes' humanity?

I always thought his role was being the moral compass and wise guide.

That's what I should have said. I was blanking on a description. :)

SEAN

Sean Whitmore

07-31-2006, 01:18 AM

Though dollars to donuts that when the time comes, Zod's gonna have a hand in killing Pa.

Gosh, I hope not. I don't care for the idea that Superman could have someone that close to him killed by a super villain. I'm hoping for weak heart, just like Bo Duke and Movie Pa.

SEAN

J. Robb

07-31-2006, 01:19 AM

That Pa Kent dying is such an obvious story is reason enough to not do it. It's like Gwen Stacy dying in "Ultimate Spider-Man"- wow, that sure came out of left field. :rolleyes:

Bored at 3:00AM

07-31-2006, 05:48 AM

I agree that there's no point in killing off Pa Kent now that Superman is an adult. His death only works if it happens right when Clark is reaching adulthood. The death of Jonathan Kent is important to the creation of Superman, it doesn't serve much purpose for an adult Superman.

I thought Infinite Crisis was a perfect opportunity for DC to retcon Jonathan Kent's death into the past, since it's not like he's done anything particularly important over the past 20 years aside from give out advice Ma Kent could have easily done on her own.

Granted, I also thought Infinite Crisis was a perfect opportunity to restore the old Supes-Lois-Clark love triangle in a new way (with Superman retaining his memories of his marriage to Lois, but the Lois of the New Earth being unaware of it), but they decided to go another way with that one too.