Civil War #3 *spoilers*

[BigBoss]

I don't like him much either. But I'm a big fan of the early X-Men issues. Oh, by the way, breathing underwater isn't his mutant power. Super-strenght and little wings on his ankles appear to be it. Even average Atlanteans don't have that.

Sandy Hausler
yea the recent X men is kinda lame except wolverine origin.

[XPac]

yea the recent X men is kinda lame except wolverine origin.

I don't know... I think Astonishing Xmen is pretty good. But yeah, Xmen will never be able to compare with it's Byrna-Claremont era. That's just an impossibly high standard that will always haunt the book.

[Zengei]

And don't forget Exodus.<g>

Sandy Hausler
and Selene

[-S-Man-]

I just want to raise a question:

Following the battle in CW #3 where Cloak and Wiccan were tranquilized and Cap got away...no one can really tell who got caught.

We know that Cloak got away...he was in the battle in the transportation of prisoners Amazing Spider-Man #534. But Cap might have learnt his lesson a choosen to only use one teleporter at a time.

The question: If Wiccan was captured...does S.H.I.E.L.D have any device to stop Wiccan from teleporting himself (and others) to freedom?

[phantom1592]

I just want to raise a question:

Following the battle in CW #3 where Cloak and Wiccan were tranquilized and Cap got away...no one can really tell who got caught.

We know that Cloak got away...he was in the battle in the transportation of prisoners Amazing Spider-Man #534. But Cap might have learnt his lesson a choosen to only use one teleporter at a time.

The question: If Wiccan was captured...does S.H.I.E.L.D have any device to stop Wiccan from teleporting himself (and others) to freedom?


When Falcon sprung him from the truck, it seems that the gag and restraints were stopping him. Also I imagin constant tranqualizers should keep him doopy.

[Markavian]

When Falcon sprung him from the truck, it seems that the gag and restraints were stopping him. Also I imagin constant tranqualizers should keep him doopy.
Wiccan is Already DOOPY as well as Cheesy as are the Entire YA line up :evilangry

[Beast]

Wiccan is Already DOOPY as well as Cheesy as are the Entire YA line up :evilangry
Comments like that make me doubt if you even have read the book.

[phantom1592]

I picked up the first issue, but the book didn't..... get me. So I really don't know much about any of the characters.



Did Really like Patriots original mask MUCH better than the little one he uses now. I also really like his Name/Costume.

[Markavian]

Comments like that make me doubt if you even have read the book.
Minors Running around Doing Good Deeds is called Endangering a Minor. Its one thing if some kids were near a building where a fire broke out and they helped someone escape but Running about looking for Criminals to fight would (And Should) Bring the Authoriities down on the Kids and their Parents or Guardians. Yes Yes I know Spiderman and Johnny Storm were both Minors when they started their Carrers. But as Stan Lee Said many times he hates Kid Heroes or Kid Sidekicks and says the courts would get those allowing it with endangering Minors. I think SHRA Outlawed Minors with Powers Using them to fight at all except maybe self defense. But even Pre SHRA frowned on Children being endangered. ;)

[Sandy Hausler]

Minors Running around Doing Good Deeds is called Endangering a Minor. Its one thing if some kids were near a building where a fire broke out and they helped someone escape but Running about looking for Criminals to fight would (And Should) Bring the Authoriities down on the Kids and their Parents or Guardians. Yes Yes I know Spiderman and Johnny Storm were both Minors when they started their Carrers. But as Stan Lee Said many times he hates Kid Heroes or Kid Sidekicks and says the courts would get those allowing it with endangering Minors. I think SHRA Outlawed Minors with Powers Using them to fight at all except maybe self defense. But even Pre SHRA frowned on Children being endangered. ;)

The X-Men (at least the original ones, along with New Mutants, X-Force, etc), Young Avengers, Teen Titans, Power Pack and the like have always been a problem in that way. It's one of those things that are ignored and have to ignored if you're going to have teen-aged (or younger) super heroes.

Sandy Hausler

[Nate Palm]

It's one of those things that are ignored and have to [be] ignored if you're going to have teen-aged (or younger) super heroes.

Sandy Hausler

And should be ignored unless needed for a story arc.

[K.I.M.]

Why would a super hero like Cap retire? The reason he is on the run is so he can do what he has always done and protect America. He has no desire to retire.

Also, why in the hell would Thor be Pro-Reg he is not even an American, like T'Challa he needs to stay the hell out. Let's just hope the Sentry is Anti-Reg and we get the Sentry Thor showdown we have all wanted since New Avengers!


Thor and T'Challa, although not American, still have a vested interest in the SRA because it affects mutants and superheroes everywhere. It is an attack on the liberty of homo superior. Plus, if people start fleeing to Wakanda for amnesty, the US may want to extradite mutants - which would place the Black Panther in a sticky situation.

[Beast]

Minors Running around Doing Good Deeds is called Endangering a Minor. Its one thing if some kids were near a building where a fire broke out and they helped someone escape but Running about looking for Criminals to fight would (And Should) Bring the Authoriities down on the Kids and their Parents or Guardians. Yes Yes I know Spiderman and Johnny Storm were both Minors when they started their Carrers. But as Stan Lee Said many times he hates Kid Heroes or Kid Sidekicks and says the courts would get those allowing it with endangering Minors. I think SHRA Outlawed Minors with Powers Using them to fight at all except maybe self defense. But even Pre SHRA frowned on Children being endangered. ;)
Again, you prove that you clearly have not actually read the book. As you would know that your problems are actually adressed within' the book. And Stan's dislike was teen sidekicks, not teen heroes. He wouldn't have created Spider-Man or the X-Men, etc. if he hated teen heroes.

[jbierly]

finally got ahold of civil war 3..

the thing is shown fighting on the pro-reg side, but in FF he is seen leaving the country in a story that clearly takes place b/f civil war 3

I'm confused

[phdecontro1]

Thor and T'Challa, although not American, still have a vested interest in the SRA because it affects mutants and superheroes everywhere. It is an attack on the liberty of homo superior. Plus, if people start fleeing to Wakanda for amnesty, the US may want to extradite mutants - which would place the Black Panther in a sticky situation.
In addition, the SRA is already being adapted for use in other countries (Israel), as seen in CW: X-Men 2.

[phantom1592]

And Stan's dislike was teen sidekicks, not teen heroes. He wouldn't have created Spider-Man or the X-Men, etc. if he hated teen heroes.


Makes sense. THere is a world of difference between a kid putting on a costume and putting himself in harm, and an adult ENCOURAGING that kid to put on a cosutme and put himself in harm. ;)

[Gregg Helmberger]

finally got ahold of civil war 3..

the thing is shown fighting on the pro-reg side, but in FF he is seen leaving the country in a story that clearly takes place b/f civil war 3

I'm confused

Nope. The story in FF takes place the day after the events in Civil War 3, as Iron Man & Co. are moving the prisoners they captured in the battle that was shown at the end of CW.

[-S-Man-]

Did Really like Patriots original mask MUCH better than the little one he uses now. I also really like his Name/Costume.

I really like his sit/ costume...Its flashy without looking too cheesey.

Plus, that double take on the prisoner break-out (Civil War #3 and Fantastic Four #539) is really confusing though.

[Markavian]

Again, you prove that you clearly have not actually read the book. As you would know that your problems are actually adressed within' the book. And Stan's dislike was teen sidekicks, not teen heroes. He wouldn't have created Spider-Man or the X-Men, etc. if he hated teen heroes.
I read the book but i dont buy it my friend Jake does and allows me to read the issues as they come. So far I am unimpressed. I see a book thats a waste of talent . Jake on the other hand Cant understand My Avengers and Ultimates:cool: facination so different strokes .....

[XPac]

Makes sense. THere is a world of difference between a kid putting on a costume and putting himself in harm, and an adult ENCOURAGING that kid to put on a cosutme and put himself in harm. ;)

Course, one could argue that's what was happening with Johnney Storm in the Fantastic Four. He was a teenager if I'm not mistaken, and this was family members encouraging him.

[Beast]

Makes sense. THere is a world of difference between a kid putting on a costume and putting himself in harm, and an adult ENCOURAGING that kid to put on a cosutme and put himself in harm. ;)
You mean, like Charles Xavier did? ;)

[Markavian]

You mean, like Charles Xavier did? ;)
And Note how he Changed his Mind years later when he founded the New Mutants.The NM were constantly getting into scrapes however even though Xaiver and Storm did their best to keep them out of Grief..the Bad Guys dont ask or care if a Superhuman is over 18 or not,but thats a given and doesnt detract from the fact that Adults should try to keep kids out of danger even if they want to become involved. Of course it can make good stories in the end :)

[phantom1592]

You mean, like Charles Xavier did? ;)


I always wondered what kind of parents would allow their kid to go to a school that had school Costumes, and a danger room.


Oh.. and REQUIRED Field trips :o

[Beast]

I always wondered what kind of parents would allow their kid to go to a school that had school Costumes, and a danger room.


Oh.. and REQUIRED Field trips :o
Well, the parents didn't know what they were doing. They used to have to pretend it was a normal school whenever their parents showed up for a visit.

[-S-Man-]

Well, the parents didn't know what they were doing. They used to have to pretend it was a normal school whenever their parents showed up for a visit.

Couldn't Prof X just make an experience that they visted the school and send them home?

[Beast]

Couldn't Prof X just make an experience that they visted the school and send them home?
Xavier doesn't like using his powers like that. And not to mention I'm sure the X-Men wanted to spend time with their families. Not just have them woggied. ;)

[Sandy Hausler]

And should be ignored unless needed for a story arc.

I agree 100%.

Sandy Hausler

[GUTB]

My whole problem with the CW is that while there aren't supposed to be good and evil, there clearly is -- strong-arming, plotting, blackmailing government agency vs. the morally superior underdogs. Even while Ironman is scheming and Reed is going mad scientist, Cap's people are still only primarily interested in fighting crime. So it's pretty obvious which side is evil and which side is good. It's pretty obvious which side is going to win -- since the good guys are for the status quo, we'll get the status quo in the end.

But why on Earth would Thor join this war? There are some Earth superheroes that just shouldn't and probably wouldn't take sides -- Dr. Strange, Thor, and Sentry. They've addressed Stange, but Thor? He and Sentry are a million miles above this crap. The super-heavies don't NEED public trust or official recognition, and would in fact be more likely to come down on the anti-reg side more than anything because the bill is what is upsetting things.

And it would be cool if Sentry would hold a press confrence in which he states that the bill is wrong and the government that supports it is unfit to be in office and so if it doesn't get stricken in a week there will be a regime change.

[Markavian]

And it would be cool if Sentry would hold a press confrence in which he states that the bill is wrong and the government that supports it is unfit to be in office and so if it doesn't get stricken in a week there will be a regime change.
And if he said that trying to dictate public policy instead of influcing it he wouldnt be a Hero anymore.:cool:

[Magneto Rocks]

My whole problem with the CW is that while there aren't supposed to be good and evil, there clearly is -- strong-arming, plotting, blackmailing government agency vs. the morally superior underdogs. Even while Ironman is scheming and Reed is going mad scientist, Cap's people are still only primarily interested in fighting crime. So it's pretty obvious which side is evil and which side is good. It's pretty obvious which side is going to win -- since the good guys are for the status quo, we'll get the status quo in the end.

That statement has one flaw- it's totally wrong. There is NOT a good and evil, and I am routing for Iron Man all the way. How about if I phrase it like this: Brave, noble, uncompromising heroes prepared to restore law and order versus heavily-armed rogues who support unliscened vigilante activity. See, it's easy to twist with words. Iron Man is PLANNING to restore law and order and make America far stronger, so is Reed. Cap's people are interested in defeating the LAW. Why does everyone ignore the Doombot scene in CW 2, or ALL of the Thunderbolts. Iron Man's side have taken down a VASTLY superior number of criminals to Cap's side, plus fighting a war. No side is evil, no side is good, and I want Iron Man to win because it's the RIGHT THING.



But why on Earth would Thor join this war? There are some Earth superheroes that just shouldn't and probably wouldn't take sides -- Dr. Strange, Thor, and Sentry. They've addressed Stange, but Thor? He and Sentry are a million miles above this crap. The super-heavies don't NEED public trust or official recognition, and would in fact be more likely to come down on the anti-reg side more than anything because the bill is what is upsetting things.

I think we're going to see this in CW 4. We're going to see why Thor picked that side, and if there was any reason hye'd be anti, it's certainly not because the bill 'upsets' things, it's because Thor has always sided with Cap over IM.

[Markavian]

Thor has known Tony longer than Steve and they were so tight that they reveled their secret Identities AGES before Cap found out who they were. Why is it so hard to think that Thor would side with IM over Cap? I would have been more stumped had Thor sided with Steve over Tony..:cool:

[Doombot330]

Thor has known Tony longer than Steve and they were so tight that they reveled their secret Identities AGES before Cap found out who they were. Why is it so hard to think that Thor would side with IM over Cap? I would have been more stumped had Thor sided with Steve over Tony..:cool:

In Secret Wars #1 when the heroes are trying to decide a leader they are talking about Cap and Thor says," I am a prince of the Gods! I do not pledge my allegiance to many of Mortal Stature! This man I will follow through the gates of Hades."

Personally I'm still not convinced that Thor is on the Pro-reg side and I don't think that he would side with Iron Man over Cap

[XPac]

Thor has known Tony longer than Steve and they were so tight that they reveled their secret Identities AGES before Cap found out who they were. Why is it so hard to think that Thor would side with IM over Cap? I would have been more stumped had Thor sided with Steve over Tony..:cool:

Knowing someone longer doesn't necessarily mean that you'd side with them (or that you're even necessarily closer).

Truthfully, given both their track records I think it's almost a knee jerk reaction to assume Cap is morally right and Tony is morally wrong. By most people's standards, Cap is the moral conscience of the whole freaking marvel universe. He's the guy they all look up to in that regard. Which isn't to say he's always right... but you never question whether he doen't at least intend what's best.

Tony is easily the more likely to morally compromise himself (not to mention having a history of being influenced more).

[Doombot330]

Knowing someone longer doesn't necessarily mean that you'd side with them (or that you're even necessarily closer).

Truthfully, given both their track records I think it's almost a knee jerk reaction to assume Cap is morally right and Tony is morally wrong. By most people's standards, Cap is the moral conscience of the whole freaking marvel universe. He's the guy they all look up to in that regard. Which isn't to say he's always right... but you never question whether he doen't at least intend what's best.

Tony is easily the more likely to morally compromise himself (not to mention having a history of being influenced more).

I think you're right, while I started off neutral I definitely swung Anti-reg and partly because its Cap.

[GUTB]

Anyone who thinks the pro-reg side, with blackmail, intimidation, thuggery, masked stormtroopers, interdimensional prison facilities and the target of just about every anti-reg remark made of behlaf of the writers themselves, AREN'T the antagonists in this story is seriously out to lunch.

We don't see Tony arguing for registration in a positive, persuasive light. Rather we see him politicking with other heroes and giving out orders to stormtroopers and setting up traps for the anti-regs. Ordering Wonder Man and Marvel out against Spidergirl for christs' sake.

Meanwhile, we see the anti-regs huddling into basements and we see Cap more concerned with not being able to play baseball with a Make a Wish Foundation kid. You really have to blind not see which way the writers want to take this story.

What CW needs to be about is supers vs. normals. The registration is the way for normal political systems to maintain power over society. That's where the super-heavyweights like Thor and Sentry should come in. You have the humans, and the human-identified supers, working towards a world in which humanity maintains control of their own destiny. Then you have the super-humans, the god figures, who stand above humanity, who will eventually ask themselves: if I can make the world better, why don't I? The conflict would start off much like it does in CW, but no one is really aware of what's really at stake -- the continued idependence of the human race on Earth -- except for Tony, Reed, and a few others. So they come over as dicks in their drive for registration and squashing resistence, but they are really trying to dois safegaurd humanity. They are patriots of the planet Earth. The anti-regs are essentially supers and others who do not want to be a part of human civilization, those who stand above or apart from it. And just as the pro-reg side finds their ultimate expression in the registration bill and unanomous support of the public and goverment, the anti-reg sides will find their ultimate expression in the most powerful, the most distantly removed from humanity -- ultra-supers like Sentry and Thor.

Only after several escalation leading to a confrontation with the goverment and such super-beings would the real lines of battle, the real issue, become crystalized for everyone else to see. Because you would have moved past national security forces cracking down on unregistered capes, and you would be looking at the goverment forces being crushed and the political system unraveling. Not hard to accomplish if you are a Thor. What the f*** can SHEILD do against Thor if gets serious? Nothing. What can any number of humans do against something like Sentry who would probably find smashing the entire US army a trivial effort?

[Morw]

Anyone who thinks the pro-reg side, with blackmail, intimidation, thuggery, masked stormtroopers, interdimensional prison facilities and the target of just about every anti-reg remark made of behlaf of the writers themselves, AREN'T the antagonists in this story is seriously out to lunch.

We don't see Tony arguing for registration in a positive, persuasive light. Rather we see him politicking with other heroes and giving out orders to stormtroopers and setting up traps for the anti-regs. Ordering Wonder Man and Marvel out against Spidergirl for christs' sake.

Meanwhile, we see the anti-regs huddling into basements and we see Cap more concerned with not being able to play baseball with a Make a Wish Foundation kid. You really have to blind not see which way the writers want to take this story.

And yet when he arrested Prowler he treid to talk to him, when Ironman spoke to captain america captain america attacked him. Ironman alteast tries to talk. He dont want to fight the other side, they try not to. but they also have to defend themself and the public servicemen from them.

So where other might see Cap beein sorry for not helping Make a wish foundation I se him beeing selfsih and just want to do what he want and not take resopnsibility for what he does. If its a normal human that has that veiw of himself then we call them spoile brats.

[ultimatespyder20]

I just finally ordered this issue off a site here today. Should get it in a week. Can't wait.

Alec

[FBHthelizardmage]

And yet when he arrested Prowler he treid to talk to him, when Ironman spoke to captain america captain america attacked him. Ironman alteast tries to talk. He dont want to fight the other side, they try not to. but they also have to defend themself and the public servicemen from them.

So where other might see Cap beein sorry for not helping Make a wish foundation I se him beeing selfsih and just want to do what he want and not take resopnsibility for what he does. If its a normal human that has that veiw of himself then we call them spoile brats.

I think GUTB's point is not so much what is happening, but what should be happening.

As it is the pro-reg crowd is not selling it well...

We have the blackmail of superhumans.

We have the use of super villains to hunt down humans.

We have not so much superhuman regulation as a superhuman draft. Cap attacked Ironman when he tried to take sure, but only after two of his own men were taken down. If Tony was really intrested in talking perhaps he'd have been better off not starting with tranq rounds.

Further, to some extent, principle is at stake. Stark is offering "Come back to the fold and we won't prosecute you, but we will contiue blackmailing supermans and trampling on civil rights." and considering the way this whole problem started, If I was captain america I'd have very little faith on Shield honouring any agreement.

Marvel perhaps could have sold me a pro-reg agenda, but right now It's not doing a very good job of it.

Caps guys get points for being the underdog, points because shield is behaving very badly, points because the pro reg side started it and points because at the base of it the Pro Reg possition doesn't make sense as stated

Supervillains kill people, a lot of people, in a battle with a group of superheroes who are somewhat out of their depth. A competent responce here might have been to prosecute New warrior survivors for gross negligence, but it would also have been to crack down on supervillains.

Instead, massive goverment resources are going to fighting captain freaking america, dare devil, and numerous people who aren't really a public threat, rather than going after the real threats.

[Magneto Rocks]

We don't see Tony arguing for registration in a positive, persuasive light. Rather we see him politicking with other heroes and giving out orders to stormtroopers and setting up traps for the anti-regs. Ordering Wonder Man and Marvel out against Spidergirl for christs' sake.

Firstly, your example is COMPLETELY ridiculous. In said comic, he asks them to find Arana, (not Spider-Girl) even though the deadline is past and he is perfectly within his rights to simply have her arrested, he specifically tells them to ask her to register because she may think there is an age requirement. Certainly that portrayed Tony in a positive light. Next, Tony has not made the best arguments for registration, I agree. But Cap has made WORSE arguments against. Honestly, "It's tradition" is NOT an argument. Wow, he set a trap. Do you really think that were the roles reversed Cap would have done ANYTHING ELSE? As for 'giving orders to stormtroopers'- no. He has OBEYED THE LAW.



Meanwhile, we see the anti-regs huddling into basements and we see Cap more concerned with not being able to play baseball with a Make a Wish Foundation kid. You really have to blind not see which way the writers want to take this story.

Firstly, I'm not blind and in fact I believe some writers want to take it that way- Bendis, Jenkins. Others- like Millar himself, do not. We see the anti-reggers huddled in basements and warehouses... exactly as super-villains have done for years. Cap is concerned that he can't play baseball with the kid, meanwhile SHIELD want to end things quickly so that the super-villains can't come out again. On the other hand guess what- if Cap HAD registered.... he COULD have kept that appointment. :o

I must say, it's funny how every little time Cap is portrayed well, it is lauded about as proof. BUT the following are either all ignored or twisted:

-Pro-Reggers defend New York from a Doombot
TWIST: "Clearly Tony built the Doombot! Even though Marvel said he didn't! I bet he did!"

-Pro-Reggers manage to deal with hundreds of super-villains
TWIST: "let's ignore that and point out the ones Cap takes down!"

-Iron Man cautions Ms Marvel and Wonder Man to try and find a kid but be kind, offer her a fair chance even though it's against the law , she may not know about no age limit etc
TWIST: "Iron Man wants them to hunt down a kid!"

-Captain America THROWS A MAN WHO WAS JUST DOING HIS DUTY into a busy road where he could easily have been killed
TWIST: "Let's ignore that."

-Some of the smartest people in all of Marvel favour the Registration Act
TWIST: "They are acting out of character!"

-Iron Man OFFERS TO TALK with Prodigy and Prodigy attacks HIM
TWIST: "OMG! Iron man takes down prodigy!"

-Iron Man tries to talk with Cap and just explain things. Cap responds by attacking him and taking him down.
TWIST: "Ah well, you can't blame Cap, it was a trap. Of course, if the opposite were true, it would prove once and for all that Marvel were biased. But naa, this is Cap."

Those are just a few examples! EVERY GOOD PRO-REG THING IS TWISTED by the peopl claiming this to be biased, and every bad anti-reg thing is ignored, and every bad pro-reg thing is TRUMPETED, as is every ghood anti-reg thing. It's two things: Firstly peopel who just want to make fun of and hate this crossover (in the minority) and secondly... people who are bringing their own persona real-life views into comics or else think that Cap can do no wrong. As I've said a thousand times- I'm a liberal Democrat who is pro-registration, just as I am pro gun registration. People who talk about the sheer biasedness need to wake up; pro-reggers don't need their argument spelled out: It's clear, obvious and makes a lot of sense.

[Markavian]

Firstly, your example is COMPLETELY ridiculous. In said comic, he asks them to find Arana, (not Spider-Girl) even though the deadline is past and he is perfectly within his rights to simply have her arrested, he specifically tells them to ask her to register because she may think there is an age requirement. Certainly that portrayed Tony in a positive light. Next, Tony has not made the best arguments for registration, I agree. But Cap has made WORSE arguments against. Honestly, "It's tradition" is NOT an argument. Wow, he set a trap. Do you really think that were the roles reversed Cap would have done ANYTHING ELSE? As for 'giving orders to stormtroopers'- no. He has OBEYED THE LAW.




Firstly, I'm not blind and in fact I believe some writers want to take it that way- Bendis, Jenkins. Others- like Millar himself, do not. We see the anti-reggers huddled in basements and warehouses... exactly as super-villains have done for years. Cap is concerned that he can't play baseball with the kid, meanwhile SHIELD want to end things quickly so that the super-villains can't come out again. On the other hand guess what- if Cap HAD registered.... he COULD have kept that appointment. :o

I must say, it's funny how every little time Cap is portrayed well, it is lauded about as proof. BUT the following are either all ignored or twisted:

-Pro-Reggers defend New York from a Doombot
TWIST: "Clearly Tony built the Doombot! Even though Marvel said he didn't! I bet he did!"

-Pro-Reggers manage to deal with hundreds of super-villains
TWIST: "let's ignore that and point out the ones Cap takes down!"

-Iron Man cautions Ms Marvel and Wonder Man to try and find a kid but be kind, offer her a fair chance even though it's against the law , she may not know about no age limit etc
TWIST: "Iron Man wants them to hunt down a kid!"

-Captain America THROWS A MAN WHO WAS JUST DOING HIS DUTY into a busy road where he could easily have been killed
TWIST: "Let's ignore that."

-Some of the smartest people in all of Marvel favour the Registration Act
TWIST: "They are acting out of character!"

-Iron Man OFFERS TO TALK with Prodigy and Prodigy attacks HIM
TWIST: "OMG! Iron man takes down prodigy!"

-Iron Man tries to talk with Cap and just explain things. Cap responds by attacking him and taking him down.
TWIST: "Ah well, you can't blame Cap, it was a trap. Of course, if the opposite were true, it would prove once and for all that Marvel were biased. But naa, this is Cap."

Those are just a few examples! EVERY GOOD PRO-REG THING IS TWISTED by the peopl claiming this to be biased, and every bad anti-reg thing is ignored, and every bad pro-reg thing is TRUMPETED, as is every ghood anti-reg thing. It's two things: Firstly peopel who just want to make fun of and hate this crossover (in the minority) and secondly... people who are bringing their own persona real-life views into comics or else think that Cap can do no wrong. As I've said a thousand times- I'm a liberal Democrat who is pro-registration, just as I am pro gun registration. People who talk about the sheer biasedness need to wake up; pro-reggers don't need their argument spelled out: It's clear, obvious and makes a lot of sense.
You should be a Lawyer ! :)

[BigBoss]

I loved the scene with Emma Frost and Tony Stark.

"Where were the Avengers when Genosha burned?"

Aesome stuff. the last page to was cool, I would love to see how SHIELD convinced Thor to be on their side.
I wouldent be suprised if that wasent thor.

[BigBoss]

Firstly, your example is COMPLETELY ridiculous. In said comic, he asks them to find Arana, (not Spider-Girl) even though the deadline is past and he is perfectly within his rights to simply have her arrested, he specifically tells them to ask her to register because she may think there is an age requirement. Certainly that portrayed Tony in a positive light. Next, Tony has not made the best arguments for registration, I agree. But Cap has made WORSE arguments against. Honestly, "It's tradition" is NOT an argument. Wow, he set a trap. Do you really think that were the roles reversed Cap would have done ANYTHING ELSE? As for 'giving orders to stormtroopers'- no. He has OBEYED THE LAW.




Firstly, I'm not blind and in fact I believe some writers want to take it that way- Bendis, Jenkins. Others- like Millar himself, do not. We see the anti-reggers huddled in basements and warehouses... exactly as super-villains have done for years. Cap is concerned that he can't play baseball with the kid, meanwhile SHIELD want to end things quickly so that the super-villains can't come out again. On the other hand guess what- if Cap HAD registered.... he COULD have kept that appointment. :o

I must say, it's funny how every little time Cap is portrayed well, it is lauded about as proof. BUT the following are either all ignored or twisted:

-Pro-Reggers defend New York from a Doombot
TWIST: "Clearly Tony built the Doombot! Even though Marvel said he didn't! I bet he did!"

-Pro-Reggers manage to deal with hundreds of super-villains
TWIST: "let's ignore that and point out the ones Cap takes down!"

-Iron Man cautions Ms Marvel and Wonder Man to try and find a kid but be kind, offer her a fair chance even though it's against the law , she may not know about no age limit etc
TWIST: "Iron Man wants them to hunt down a kid!"

-Captain America THROWS A MAN WHO WAS JUST DOING HIS DUTY into a busy road where he could easily have been killed
TWIST: "Let's ignore that."

-Some of the smartest people in all of Marvel favour the Registration Act
TWIST: "They are acting out of character!"

-Iron Man OFFERS TO TALK with Prodigy and Prodigy attacks HIM
TWIST: "OMG! Iron man takes down prodigy!"

-Iron Man tries to talk with Cap and just explain things. Cap responds by attacking him and taking him down.
TWIST: "Ah well, you can't blame Cap, it was a trap. Of course, if the opposite were true, it would prove once and for all that Marvel were biased. But naa, this is Cap."

Those are just a few examples! EVERY GOOD PRO-REG THING IS TWISTED by the peopl claiming this to be biased, and every bad anti-reg thing is ignored, and every bad pro-reg thing is TRUMPETED, as is every ghood anti-reg thing. It's two things: Firstly peopel who just want to make fun of and hate this crossover (in the minority) and secondly... people who are bringing their own persona real-life views into comics or else think that Cap can do no wrong. As I've said a thousand times- I'm a liberal Democrat who is pro-registration, just as I am pro gun registration. People who talk about the sheer biasedness need to wake up; pro-reggers don't need their argument spelled out: It's clear, obvious and makes a lot of sense. I would like too state the opoins I make every oncein a while but since some peopl steal them I cant! ahahahah just joking. anyways I totally agree. there is nothing too it anit is bad and pro is right. there is nothing wrong with being pro and at times I think this civil war story could just be something that marvel needs to make to try and stay in the league with DC. but that's just me dont listen too me.

[GUTB]

Are you going to deny that, overall, there has been a clearly negative view of the pro-reg side? This goes beyond just arguments and actions, but the way the writers are presenting scenes, the way the art is slanted. No one has come out as just plain evil, or MASSIVELY out of character per se, but the indication of which side the writers are pulling for is clear. For instance, Reed gets spanked by Urich in an interview regarding statistics with a baseball analogy, making Reed look like an acedemic with no understanding of real people. His wife even tells him directly, that his equations are "gobley-gook". The whole concept is roundly dissed in Illumanti. Etc. No writer on any book has made attempted to slant an anti-reg scene in a negative light, but we are constantly beaten with how much we are supposed to sympathize with the antis and hate the pros.

[Jake V]

Are you going to deny that, overall, there has been a clearly negative view of the pro-reg side? This goes beyond just arguments and actions, but the way the writers are presenting scenes, the way the art is slanted. No one has come out as just plain evil, or MASSIVELY out of character per se, but the indication of which side the writers are pulling for is clear. For instance, Reed gets spanked by Urich in an interview regarding statistics with a baseball analogy, making Reed look like an acedemic with no understanding of real people. His wife even tells him directly, that his equations are "gobley-gook". The whole concept is roundly dissed in Illumanti. Etc. No writer on any book has made attempted to slant an anti-reg scene in a negative light, but we are constantly beaten with how much we are supposed to sympathize with the antis and hate the pros.
I think our perceptions of the Pro side are somewhat colored by a natural inclination to root for the underdog and want to fight against authority. Rebellion is way more glamorous than falling in line with the government.

Adding to that, (and I don't know if you've been following New Avengers) is the fact that SHIELD is fairly corrupt as of late, with Nick Fury being in hiding. So at least the SHIELD aspect of the Pro side is appropriately sleazy and filled with douchebags.

On the other side, while Cap's crew hasn't really been shown in a negative light, there have been anti-registration vigilantes acting like incompetent jerks in the Frontline mini. Also, keep in mind that we're in issue 3 of 7. There's 4 more issues the anti side has to be assholes.

As far as Reed goes, I think thats one point that there isn't an explanation for. Maybe an explanation will be coming, and maybe not.

[the eternal]

i agree the pro reg side doesn't look good at the moment. have you seen what iron man does to cap ? so i'm really interested about the neyt developments :)

[jackolover]

And did anybody notice the white lightning flashing across the panel on the cover around IM and Cap fighting? That was the clue that Thor would be in this issue.

[streator]

just read the issue... it was good. i enjoyed the first two issues more though.
some questions:

is daredevil in civil war really matt murdock? i don't remember if that was resolved (i'm assuming it's matt, since he's unmasked in this issue talking with the other anti-reg heroes).
i know the daredevil in his solo title was revealed to be iron-fist. does civil war take place sometime before or after that then (meaning, before or after murdock was in jail)?

or is this iron-fist in disguise as "cooper peyton" and murdock is indeed in prison?

when was thor last seen?

/my two favorite parts of the issue were when iron-man reboots and flies right into captain america (even through i am rooting for the anti-reg side) and the final page with thor.
//mcniven's emma frost was pretty cool as well.

[phantom1592]

is daredevil in civil war really matt murdock? i don't remember if that was resolved (i'm assuming it's matt, since he's unmasked in this issue talking with the other anti-reg heroes).
i know the daredevil in his solo title was revealed to be iron-fist. does civil war take place sometime before or after that then (meaning, before or after murdock was in jail)?

or is this iron-fist in disguise as "cooper peyton" and murdock is indeed in prison?



According to Ed Brubaker the Daredevil in Civil War is Iron Fist. I was curious if they were going to switch places and have matt take back over in CW, but it was indicated No. Matt also seems to be on the run and doing his own stuff out of the country in his own book.

[streator]

According to Ed Brubaker the Daredevil in Civil War is Iron Fist. I was curious if they were going to switch places and have matt take back over in CW, but it was indicated No. Matt also seems to be on the run and doing his own stuff out of the country in his own book.
thanks for the information.

[Bobster777]

when was thor last seen?
.
Thor was last seen during the Ragnarok storyline of Thor vol 2 in which the readers are left to believe that he died.

[Magneto Rocks]

Answering a point from a couple weeks ago.


Are you going to deny that, overall, there has been a clearly negative view of the pro-reg side? This goes beyond just arguments and actions, but the way the writers are presenting scenes, the way the art is slanted. No one has come out as just plain evil, or MASSIVELY out of character per se, but the indication of which side the writers are pulling for is clear. For instance, Reed gets spanked by Urich in an interview regarding statistics with a baseball analogy, making Reed look like an acedemic with no understanding of real people. His wife even tells him directly, that his equations are "gobley-gook". The whole concept is roundly dissed in Illumanti. Etc. No writer on any book has made attempted to slant an anti-reg scene in a negative light, but we are constantly beaten with how much we are supposed to sympathize with the antis and hate the pros.

Your Reed example is exactly right. I agree, it does indeed portray the pro-reggers in a strongly negative light, not to mention being patently ridiculous. Wow- biasedness in Frontline. If it hadn't been strongly evident since issue 1 I might even be surprised. I said earlier some books are biased- Frontline is one of them.

But your example of Reed's wife telling him his equations are gobledegook... it's not correct, insofar as it doesn't make Reed look bad at al. Reed is the smartest man alive, Sue is pretty smart too, but Reed's calculations are so far advanced even she can't understand any of them. Makes sense to me, doesn't make Reed look bad. I mean I highly doubt they were ACTUAL gobledegook, since I'd trust Reed over Sue at maths any day of the week.
Yeah, the concept is dissed in Lumminati. By Bendis, who continues to be biased in New Avengers.

Yes, some titles are heavily slanted against pro-reg, yes no titles are heavily slanted against anti-reg. But the main titles, and most titles, are unbiased, and that's all I ask for and all I want.

[-S-Man-]

While I agree that the pro-side is getting a bashing from the writers I think the main title (CW) has a balanced view on things. We have the infamous Cap and IM battle at the end of CW #3, and a lot of people are blaming Cap for not listening and planting that scrambler.

People are over-looking the fact the Cap used missiles in his rescue attempt of the captured superhero. While a major accident was diverted, things could have gone very badly. I think as CW continues and the pro side wins the Caps underhand techniques will get more desperate and sloppy. Maybe enough to make him question his own motives.

Maybe all the writers have been told the lean towards one side and make the other side seem negative...its a little out there but who knows.

[phantom1592]

thanks for the information.


No prob. The thing I find funny is that nobody brings up the issue in the actual book, and when people read it five years from now, the fact that it isn't really Matt will just be forgotten.

Odds are it'll be retconned into being Matt sometime in the far future ;)

[Magneto Rocks]

People are over-looking the fact the Cap used missiles in his rescue attempt of the captured superhero. While a major accident was diverted, things could have gone very badly.

Actually, the missiles were sent by the Puppet Master controlling a helicopter pilot inj order to cause devastation.


No prob. The thing I find funny is that nobody brings up the issue in the actual book, and when people read it five years from now, the fact that it isn't really Matt will just be forgotten.

Actually, I believe it's been said DD will be revealed as Iron Fist later in the actual book.

[phantom1592]

Actually, the missiles were sent by the Puppet Master controlling a helicopter pilot inj order to cause devastation.



Actually, I believe it's been said DD will be revealed as Iron Fist later in the actual book.


That'll be cool if they do. although it's nice to see DD play such a major part in a crossover like this regardless of who's in the costume. He wasn't in Secret Wars, I don't think he was in the main SW II book, and he was one of the 1/2 killed in Infinity Gauntlet.

[Bobster777]

That'll be cool if they do. although it's nice to see DD play such a major part in a crossover like this regardless of who's in the costume. He wasn't in Secret Wars, I don't think he was in the main SW II book, and he was one of the 1/2 killed in Infinity Gauntlet.
He was in the Secret Wars involving Nick Fury, but yeah, it is nice to see the character playing a major role.

[phantom1592]

He was in the Secret Wars involving Nick Fury, but yeah, it is nice to see the character playing a major role.


Yeah the slow shipping schedule kept me from picking that up. I'll have to find the tpb. I always loved how he got a secret wars toy when he wasn't even there, and a LOT of people that WERE there just got shafted.:confused:

[Bobster777]

Yeah the slow shipping schedule kept me from picking that up. I'll have to find the tpb. I always loved how he got a secret wars toy when he wasn't even there, and a LOT of people that WERE there just got shafted.:confused:
Ha ha, really? That's hilarious. I can't believe they would do that.

Well, yeah, I recommend the tpb. Great read. I suggest going to one of your local Borders or B and N.

[phantom1592]

Ha ha, really? That's hilarious. I can't believe they would do that.




Ohh yeah. Daredevil got a figure, Kang got one, oh Falcon, Iceman and Hobgoblin got really hard to find figures and NONE of them were in the series, but none of the X-men except Wolverine got one. No Ultron. No Wrecking crew. Very odd choices. I would have thought that Cyclops, Storm, Nightcrawler... any of them would have sold better than "Falcon" Hobgoblin actually LOOKED pretty cool, but I don't think he came with a glider, so what was the point:confused:

[Bobster777]

Ohh yeah. Daredevil got a figure, Kang got one, oh Falcon, Iceman and Hobgoblin got really hard to find figures and NONE of them were in the series, but none of the X-men except Wolverine got one. No Ultron. No Wrecking crew. Very odd choices. I would have thought that Cyclops, Storm, Nightcrawler... any of them would have sold better than "Falcon" Hobgoblin actually LOOKED pretty cool, but I don't think he came with a glider, so what was the point:confused:
What?! Hobgoblin without the glider is like Ghost Rider without the bike.

[Ult. Fireboy]

I think the issue was great. The return of Thor was awesome.

[-S-Man-]

Was he dead though. I read Thor: Dissasembled and I thought he assended to a state beyond death more like suspended animation :p where he was in control. Hibernation, thats it.

[Ult. Fireboy]

Was he dead though. I read Thor: Dissasembled and I thought he assended to a state beyond death more like suspended animation :p where he was in control. Hibernation, thats it.
I don't think he ever died either. When his world ended, I think he just became a human, until he found his hammer.

[phantom1592]

Yeah... he was the only one they didn't use the word "dead" or "Killed" with. Maybe Loki's Head too. I don't know.


I'm curious What kind of power he has now? When he "went away" He was more powerful than Odin. He had the Odin-power, he had the magic of the Runes, He was blind in both eyes....

He sured looked like he was "classic Thor" to me.

[Ult. Fireboy]

I don't think anybody knows. Whatever power was in the hammer I guess. We'll see in CW 4.:cool: :)

[Bobster777]

Yeah... he was the only one they didn't use the word "dead" or "Killed" with. Maybe Loki's Head too. I don't know.


I'm curious What kind of power he has now? When he "went away" He was more powerful than Odin. He had the Odin-power, he had the magic of the Runes, He was blind in both eyes....

He sured looked like he was "classic Thor" to me.
yeah, he sure does. If it is Hercules that dies though, Thor must have had a power boost considering he kills him with one thunderbolt.

[Markavian]

yeah, he sure does. If it is Hercules that dies though, Thor must have had a power boost considering he kills him with one thunderbolt.
Hercules along with cloak and Dagger were seen being with a Battered Captain America in X Men CW 2 which showed the Anti Reg forces post CW 4. So I think its Goliath in all likelyhood.

[Ult. Fireboy]

I like it will be Goliath now. I used to think Falcon, but I changed my mind.:cool:

[Bobster777]

Hercules along with cloak and Dagger were seen being with a Battered Captain America in X Men CW 2 which showed the Anti Reg forces post CW 4. So I think its Goliath in all likelyhood.
Oh really? man, I gotta take a look at that issue again.

[Ult. Fireboy]

Marvel's preview said a BIG death, didn't it. Which would be Goliath.:eek:

[Haunt]

Marvel's preview said a BIG death, didn't it. Which would be Goliath.:eek:


yeah, but Joe Quesada also says that he gets off on misleading fans and watching little comments become huge rumours.

[Ult. Fireboy]

Yeah, they like to screw with our heads and think misleading things.:)

[jackolover]

What seems apparent, now, since the Civil War, Initiative, WWH, SI and Dark Reign, is that the one fulcrum moment that has changed everything was the encounter between Iron Man and Captain America in this book. Why Tony Stark and Steve Rogers came to blows at that moment in history.

If Steve and Tony remained friends after their fight, we may have forgiven all the division between them and just got on with the super human game. But both Cap and Iron Man made such a different stand to anything else that has ever come before or since. Two men whose integrity prevented either of them ever coming into conflict, had come to blows in the most violent and philosophically basic fashion that two characters could. To me, it looked like one of them had become a villain, either Steve or Tony. That's how strongly the clash meant to the genre. Can you imagine Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne ever becoming so at variance with one anothers philosophy that they come to blows over the very tenets of their genre? Superman would never let Batman on the JL ever again.

That's what I feel happened between Steve and Tony. The very laws both men based each others world on had changed, and been shown to be so different, they couldn't exist in the same world together. The super heroes were supposed to be one uniform fraternity, but now it has been shown to comprise of various value systems, not assumed to be all of the same kind, anymore.

I'm willing to think that the MU has been split down the middle and two groups of super humans now exist. The old traditionalist, and the Super Human Armed Forces, run by the government. This to me seems like a ploy by the powers that started this, to undermine the super humans, by fracturing them, and undermining their confidence. If the Super Humans are brought down to the humans level, then the SH's are more able to be manipulated.

[Gnarl]

Tony out-strateged Steve.

Steve, for all his tactical genius, isn't much of a strategist. He had probably expected things to work like they did for Spider-Man when he was an outlaw. Everyone knowing he was on the side of the heroes, nod and wink.

Be outlaws for a while, cooperate with the other heroes when needed. Spider-Man, the X-Men...it worked that way for lots of people.

At no point did anyone gather together the most powerful heroes and set fire to the Bugle to get Spider-Man in jail. Or bushwack the X-men at their school.
Thats why he struck Tony. He realized that Tony didn't play by the rules Steve had envisioned. Tony was going to actively hunt him and put him in jail! Tony basically took it way to far, in Steves mind.

[jackolover]

Tony out-strateged Steve.

Steve, for all his tactical genius, isn't much of a strategist. He had probably expected things to work like they did for Spider-Man when he was an outlaw. Everyone knowing he was on the side of the heroes, nod and wink.

Be outlaws for a while, cooperate with the other heroes when needed. Spider-Man, the X-Men...it worked that way for lots of people.

At no point did anyone gather together the most powerful heroes and set fire to the Bugle to get Spider-Man in jail. Or bushwack the X-men at their school.
Thats why he struck Tony. He realized that Tony didn't play by the rules Steve had envisioned. Tony was going to actively hunt him and put him in jail! Tony basically took it way to far, in Steves mind.

At no time, during the CW did it ever revert back to the days where heroes fought villains. During Frontline, Daredevil (#87), you can clearly see that the world was a changed landscape, now. SHIELD Capekillers were everywhere, and it wasn't so much super hero stories anymore, as a look at day to day living at ground level, once super heroes were stopped from their activity. Both the Initiative and the Osborn TBolts were forming within the pages of Frontline, and the days of the super hero were numbered leading up to CW #3. You read any one of those tie-in books, and not one of them gives you a feeling of thwarting crime, as much as setting a scene of desolation and isolation. Dark forces were being marshalled within those pages. There must have 140 books, and not one story dealt with taking a bad guy down, because the Pro-reg forces were patrolling the streets, (the Spider-Man Unmasked series were the only ones). Even the X-Men had to sneak around and escape their jail to get anything done. You think back to those days, and it wasn't super hero comics anymore. 140 books about what it means to not have super heroes between the pages.

[Gnarl]

At no time, during the CW did it ever revert back to the days where heroes fought villains. During Frontline, Daredevil (#87), you can clearly see that the world was a changed landscape, now. SHIELD Capekillers were everywhere, and it wasn't so much super hero stories anymore, as a look at day to day living at ground level, once super heroes were stopped from their activity. Both the Initiative and the Osborn TBolts were forming within the pages of Frontline, and the days of the super hero were numbered leading up to CW #3. You read any one of those tie-in books, and not one of them gives you a feeling of thwarting crime, as much as setting a scene of desolation and isolation. Dark forces were being marshalled within those pages. There must have 140 books, and not one story dealt with taking a bad guy down, because the Pro-reg forces were patrolling the streets, (the Spider-Man Unmasked series were the only ones). Even the X-Men had to sneak around and escape their jail to get anything done. You think back to those days, and it wasn't super hero comics anymore. 140 books about what it means to not have super heroes between the pages.

Yes. And Tony got that. Steve didn't.

Tony was setting up ambushes while Streve was cheerfully getting them "secret identities". Steve thought it could be business as usual, with his guys on the outside for now.