To go Mac or not to go Mac.

[Justin Davis]

My computer died yesterday morning. The hard drive was in the last stages of failure, and someone is trying to recover as much data as possible before installing another drive. This should all cost about $300. Now, I need whatever data can be recovered so that's not negotiable. There's some written work on there I don't have anywhere else, and I have some pictures I can't duplicate. However, this has led me to seriously consider getting a Mac. I've heard many differing views on Macs, but haven't researched them too much myself. Now's the time I need everyone who has an opinion on the Mac vs. PC debate to come out. Also, I may have a new job, but I still don't want to spend a ton of money.

Thoughts?

[Sanagi]

To get right to the point in a totally overgeneralizing kind of way: Macs have no viruses, but also have no games.

[SOGG]

I have both a PC and a powerbook g4. And I have to say, unless you play a lot of games, the mac is just better. More MIPS with less processor cycles and much better memory management. (I'm still on 256k)

Other things I didn't like about the Mac included:

1.) Bad graphics architecture on the notebook. The desktops are loads better though.

2.) The application threading model takes some getting used to. Every application spawns one thread in the same process. So if say one window in safari stopped working, all your safari windows are affected.

3.) Developing software is crappy with codewarrior, and there aren't many alternatives.

4.) some configuration (like dhcp, etc) needs to be done outside of OSX, which isn't too bad.

5.) It's far more expensive than its pc counterpart.

That said:
1.) it's light years more advanced than pcs in terms of memory architecture and graphics.

2.) The thing was built to take advantage of firewire from the get-go, so most firewire peripherals work faster on a mac.

3.) Memory management is amazing. There's a memory leak issue in safari, but apart from that, everything runs super smooth.

4.) No learning curve. At all.

5.) Automates a lot of stuff for you -- like searching for wifi connections.

[ChaosBuddha]

Well if you want to switch to OS X the "legal" way you'll be spending a lot of money. Even though Apple went to x86 processors they still wont sell a copy of OS X to anybody with a PC. There are ways of running OS X on a PC but it's a little less than legal (check the link at the bottom).

As far as the OS X vs. Windows debate, they are pretty similar as far as user friendliness goes, but it's usually easier finding third party software for Windows. The only other difference is that you're less likely to get spyware or a virus with OS X, but by no means is it more secure than Windows.

http://www.osx86project.org/

[Typo Lad]

If you wanna pay the shipping, I have a G4 tower not doing anything.

Sure, it's on the older side, but it's good training wheels until you're sure that you want to make that fiscal commitment.

Macs DO fail. It happens. I lost 4 years of photos when mine failed. However, they wouldn't have been erased if I hadn't tried to MacGuyver a solution.

Let me know.

[Athena Bast]

Not that this means anything..

My aunt is still using her "blueberry" iMac from like 12 years. I'm on my 4th PC.

My aunt runs 2 or 3 businesses (Webpage design, photography, pubic speaking). She's also retired.

[Drew Van T.]

I'm surprised that Bootcamp hasn't been mentioned yet. It's in beta still, but it will let you use both OS X and XP on a Mac machine. So buying a Mac now, you get superior hardware design with all OS/software options thrown wide open.

Yes, Macs tend to be more expensive than your average PC. But unless you do lots of heavy 3D editing and you play the heaviest 3D games, you do not need the fastest, biggest, most expensive machine. The new MacBook priced at $1099 should fill the needs of 90 percent of computer users in terms of speed and space. You will be able to dual-boot it into XP if that is your preference.

Apple's support is excellent, too, some of the best there is.

People who switch to Mac generally don't go back unless they really, really have no choice (like not being able to run XP simultaneously...which is now in the past).

[Typo Lad]

Eh. The price thing isn't as true anymore. A current Mac's price is comparable to any PC with a Dual Core chip.

[ChaosBuddha]

if you buy a computer from a place like Dell or Gateway, but if you were to build a computer it is still A LOT cheaper.

[LtMarvel]

If you want to think about the future, get a 64-bit system. That is the next thing software will be written for.

You can get a pretty good deal on one here (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/category/category_slc.asp?CatId=1883&).

[Typo Lad]

Really? You think so?

Which model are we comparing to? The iMac? Remember to use comparable parts. Slot loading drive, Intel Core duo chip, high quality RAM (although they never give enough, the bastids), integrated camera, remote control, and a flat screen monitor. We'll even ignore the all-in-one aspect, and for arguments sake say it's a model without airport or bluetooth.

The Mini? Better chance of matching the price, thanks to the integrated graphics (bleh), but you'll still be hard pressed.

Then there's total cost of ownership to consider. The Mac OS is slightly more stable with less malware written for it.

PLus Macs tend to last longer. Until recently I was using a laptop from 1999 that performed on par with my work machine, a P4. I have two grape imacs in storage that run the latest OS just fine too.

I like PCs, but Macs are better in a buncha ways.

[Typo Lad]

I thought the core duo was 64 bit?

[Drew Van T.]

I thought the core duo was 64 bit?

The current incarnation is Yonah - not 64 bit capable. Its successor, Merom, will be.

Personally I am not convinced that the 64-bit revolution is all that it's talked up to be. Software developers will be slow to make the switch. Me, I have no need for it in my personal use.

[LtMarvel]

Intel was wayyy behind AMD developing a 64-bit processor. I'm not even sure Intel ever got the 64-bit developed.

Duel core systems were developed when they hit the heat barrier in terms of speeds of the processor. AMD has duel core 64-bit machines (really cool when the virus scan doesn't even slow you down!).

[Valmore]

The whole spheel about MACs never crashing or needing rebooting is complete BS. I worked on a MAC, and it crashed almost as constantly as any PC I've ever used.

[ChaosBuddha]

I wouldn't spend more than $500 on parts (including moniter) in the firsty place. I dont need my computer to play Half Life 2, I need it to run. Where are you people getting the idea that a PC is only good for a few years? Sure something will probably go wrong but instead of trashing it why not just figure out whats wrong with it and replace it, would you junk a car just because the sparkplug goes out?

I have a comp with 64mb of RAM and a Pentium II running Slackware and it does everything I need it to do.

[Typo Lad]

The whole spheel about MACs never crashing or needing rebooting is complete BS. I worked on a MAC, and it crashed almost as constantly as any PC I've ever used.

What OS version? I find that to be true for anything before 9. After that, mine have all been pretty stable until that eMac, but that was palm's fault.

[Typo Lad]

I wouldn't spend more than $500 on parts (including moniter) in the firsty place. I dont need my computer to play Half Life 2, I need it to run. Where are you people getting the idea that a PC is only good for a few years? Sure something will probably go wrong but instead of trashing it why not just figure out whats wrong with it and replace it, would you junk a car just because the sparkplug goes out?

I have a comp with 64mb of RAM and a Pentium II running Slackware and it does everything I need it to do.

See, but when you say a PC is cheaper in your earlier post, you give the impression that you mean a comparable PC.

A comparable PC is going to cost you just as much.

Unless we're talking a laptop. I personally would NOT buy a current mac laptop. They get hot enough to fry an egg on. Really. Someone did it.

Oh, and odd on the 64 bit. The g5 chip was 64 bit.

[ChaosBuddha]

When you buy a PC or Mac they usually don't tell of what quality the parts are. I can build a PC for about 400-500 that would cost around $1000 if you went to Dell (thats asuming I use bargain parts just like Dell).

But again I wouldnt spend that much because it's a waste of money, the only thing I dont cheap out on is the HDD.

[phoenixrising]

if you buy a computer from a place like Dell or Gateway, but if you were to build a computer it is still A LOT cheaper.

And if you buy a PC from Dell or Gateway, you will be replacing it every two years, maybe more, because they are cheaply made and they suck horribly. I had three of them before I just went to Mac. I've had the same ibook four years now with no problems.

[Brandon Hanvey]

I mostly use a Mac at home since I'm more comfortable with it. And my graphics programs tend to work a little better with it.

Nicole used to use both a PC desktop and a Mac laptop. But when both died on the same day. She switched to just a Mac Intel laptop and uses both OSs on it with Boot Camp. She even uses her old desktop monitor with her laptop as a sort of dual screen setup.

[Expletive Deleted]

Admittedly it's been a while since I used a Mac, but two or three years ago their higher-end math programs were pretty lousy compared to the PC's.

Not that that's what you want it for, of course. I'm just sayin'.

[kmeyers]

See, but when you say a PC is cheaper in your earlier post, you give the impression that you mean a comparable PC.

A comparable PC is going to cost you just as much.

Unless we're talking a laptop. I personally would NOT buy a current mac laptop. They get hot enough to fry an egg on. Really. Someone did it.

Seriously. I have a friend Charlie who has an internal temperature gage, or something, and he said his computer gets up to 130 degrees sometimes. how can that be good for a computer?

I was using his computer for about thirty minutes. I had to put a pillow between it and my lap, or seriously risk burning my pubes off. My brother's is the same way.

[Valmore]

What OS version? I find that to be true for anything before 9. After that, mine have all been pretty stable until that eMac, but that was palm's fault.

I'm thinking it was around 7 or 8. It's been a couple years. But the one we have at work now is a 9 and it crashes, though admittedly with less frequency then before.

[Ontir]

Justin,

I bought my first Mac, after two PCs, last year. The first thing that you notice with a Mac (aside from that it costs more up font), is that it works. When they tell you it'll do something, it does, right out of the box, the very first time! I've never seen a PC, let alone owned one that does that.

For me, the difference comes down to this. You can buy a car that you have to tinker with, and spend all your spare time hunting parts and making modifications. If you enjoy that sort of thing, then a PC is for you.

If, however, you want to open the door, sit down, turn the key, press the pedal, and friggin' go! a Mac is where you're going to be happy.

You can get a decent Mini (which is what I've got), which now has the intel chip, and continue to use most, if not all of your peripherals. The only reason I bought a new keyboard and mouse, was because mine were pre-USB. Of course, a year later, I also upgraded to an HDTV/Monitor, which is lovely. You can also get the iMac, which has an HD screen. They're quite nice, and all-in-one.

Unlike the past, you can get a great deal of share-ware and free-ware, and the OS is constantly be substantially improved. The ease of use, and functionality of my Mac has been fantastic. I'll not go back to PC!

Also, if you're a student, or work for the governement, they offer discounts, check the web-site for details.

[Night]

I just like PC's... as my main machine, I've had for about 4 years now.... I've upgraded the memory to run better video compression since the move to the cube (shuttle Xpc box). I may have upgraded the processor too, but at the beginning if I did. Going to the cube was one of the biggest changes, because I had to get all new memory and go down to one optical drive. I recently got a surplus machine from work for about 100 bucks to do my Linux stuff because I got sick of running triple boot. I never got much out of running multiple OS's on the same box. Plus if something should go wrong with this one, I'll have something to fall back on.

As far as MS or Apple for business practices, I don’t like either of them. Less viruses on a Mac, but less programs in general.

As for hardware failure, Mac’s not going to save you from that, especially since they're going to more platform independence. It's the quality of the parts that matter. I don't necessarily get the cheapest parts, I try to look for things I want in performance. As far as hard drives go, I would strongly suggest "Western Digital" or at least "Seagate" as brand names to look for.

Edit: I wouldn't have had to make the mods I did, It worked out of the box... I just wanted a better performance and instead of going to a new PC, I just added performace to the one I had. The surplus one worked as soon as I plugged it in (and gave it an OS.... surplus sometimes doesn't come with the OS)

Edit2: If it's only your Hard Drive that failed, Hard Drive changes are one of the easiest things to change on a PC... That is unless you just want a new computer. (reflecting the spark plug analogy)

[Leslie Lee III]

PC's. As has been pointed out, build one yourself and you're going to end up pay as little as half.

You won't have to worry about viruses are malware as long as you've got a clue.

If something goes wrong with a computer, you more than likely can fix it through basic trouble shooting.

[Typo Lad]

You cna also do basic troubleshooting on a Mac.

[Drew Van T.]

I'm thinking it was around 7 or 8. It's been a couple years. But the one we have at work now is a 9 and it crashes, though admittedly with less frequency then before.

When they made the switch to OS X, the most immediately noticeable difference was the absence of crashes. All these years I have had a system crash only once, and that was partly a hardware failure (programs can still lock up of course, not the same thing).

PC's. As has been pointed out, build one yourself and you're going to end up pay as little as half.

You won't have to worry about viruses are malware as long as you've got a clue.

If something goes wrong with a computer, you more than likely can fix it through basic trouble shooting.

Building is fine if you want to spend time and effort on it (and, indeed, do the repairs yourself). I don't want to have to do anything more radical than installing extra ram, and leave everything else to the store or Apple support.

Same reason I haven't completely switched to Linux yet, even though I believe in the open source philosophy.

[Leslie Lee III]

Building is fine if you want to spend time and effort on it (and, indeed, do the repairs yourself).

It's really not that hard. Putting together a computer takes less effort than putting together a computer desk.

[Typo Lad]

To you, yes. I myself can do it with one hand tied behind my back (Really. I've tried). However, not everyone has the skills.

[Mac Danny]

Mac WHOMPS ASS!

Now that they have the intel mac's cross platform software is not an issue. It's stable and sleek and easy to use.

get the mightymouse too. it's design simplicity with a lot of functionality.

Mac Zealot = Me

[Shade]

To you, yes. I myself can do it with one hand tied behind my back (Really. I've tried). However, not everyone has the skills.

Seriously though, as a technician it pains me to devalue myself and say "anyone can do it". But most coponent parts are designed so Fisher-Price like now that building your own pc now isn't much tougher than putting together a kids toy. Just follow the manual.

[SOGG]

I have a pc for purely gaming reasons and whenever I need to upgrade, I build it myself. For 80% of everything, I agree. Espescially since pcs got rid of P8/P9 power connectors and moved to atxpower. However, certain things are bound to frustrate people building a pc for the first time.

1.) The parts don't all work well together. Think about what would happen if someone bought an AMD motherboard, AMD processor and RAM and expected to just lego it together? Even with the correct socket matching, this combo can fail POST. I really believe that for the person who isn't a tinkerer, a mac is the way to go.

2.) BIOS settings. Boards nowadays start out with super conservative settings. Let's say the guy got 1) to work above, he'd be gettting a lot less computer for the same money.

3.) Orientation of the LED and switch cables. Some companies like ASUS or MSI have good labelling and manuals. Others expect you to know that the red side is positive. Get a taiwanese board and the red could even be negative. Herein lies the path towards infinite rebooting.

4.) Heat sink placement and thermal paste. Even if you get a PIB, you could very well screw up slathering the paste on. Too much and the heat never gets to the heat sink, too little and you've wasted a proc.

Building pcs is great fun -- for pc builders. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone.

[Justin Davis]

Thanks, nerds!

I got my computer back about an hour ago. It runs smoothly, but I have to download some files and programs that I lost. Not too big of a deal. The major thing I needed that I couldn't do on my own was salvaging data before the hard drive died. Basically, after over four years of constant use, the small 20GB hard drive couldn't take it anymore. Like Shade said, most computer parts are really simple to install nowadays. I haven't come across any yet that aren't plug-n-play. I've never had a problem with spyware or viruses. I tend to know what I'm doing in those departments. This is the first time I've had any serious problem I couldn't handle on my own since I got my computer in spring of 2002. On my PC, I write, play around with images, listen to music, watch videos, and do random things on the internet. I'm not a big PC gamer because I mainly stick to the PS2 for that.

Morts, you rock as usual. What exactly does a G4 tower? I could look it up, but I figure you might be able to break it down better and faster than most sites I could find. How compatible is it with other things like printers, monitors, etc.?

[Typo Lad]

Morts, you rock as usual.

Oh hush.

What exactly does a G4 tower?

Mac geeks with no girlfriends.

I could look it up, but I figure you might be able to break it down better and faster than most sites I could find.

This particular tower is the first model G4 tower Apple made. It's got decent specs (http://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/stats/powermac_g4_350.html), despite the relative slow chip speed (350 Mhz). How good is it? Until earlier this year, it was a professional graphic designers machine. He did everything on it. In fact, I'm using an almost identical model: mine's just 450 Mhz instead with a gig of RAM and three massive HDs.

It's an easy-open case, with quick access to the HD, RAM, et all. It's a pain in the booty to get to the CD drive at first, but once you get used to it it's easy.

I'm not sure what size HD I have in it now. It may not be huge. I'd put 256 MB of RAM in it (it uses PC-100 RAM), unless I happen to find more.

The one annoying thing is that it uses PCI graphics instead of AGP. If you were a gamer, I'd say stay away. Everything else is rendered fine graphics-wise.

How compatible is it with other things like printers, monitors, etc.?

Any and all Mac compatible printers will work with it. That's just about any USB printer you could imagine.

The PCI Graphics card is VGA, so any VGA monitor would work with it. My own is hooked to a nice flat screen monitor.

I have a KB and Mouse for it. One neat thing I love about Mac keyboards is the eject button. SO CUTE. The mouse is a Microsoft IntelleMouse. I frigging hate Apple Mice.

The catches are as follows:

1) I have to dig up a CD drive for it. I was using a CD burner with it but I need that burner for work stuff. If you want to just put your old CD drive in, I'll send it as is.

2) Like I said, the HDs on the small side. The machine can only see HDs smaller than 128 Gig without 3rd party software.

I also have two purple iMacs. They're G3 333s. Good internet terminals and typing systems.

[elheffe]

Justin here's a pic:
http://mmlweb.rutgers.edu/images/g4tower.jpg

I'm completely biased, but I say buy a Mac. Sure, they aren't perfect, but they're so much easier to use. I recently had to start using a PC for the first time in my life, and while hating every second of it, I found that for everything you do on a Mac takes two or three more steps on a PC.
Like others have said, OS X is very stable, Macs really don't get viruses, and now run Windows.

[Dan Apodaca]

Macs DO fail. It happens.

An important fact to remember beyond the hyperbole, Justin.

Regardless of brand name, all computers are machines, and all machines will occasionally fail. My old roomates Mac used to freeze any time you tried to listen to music and go online at the same time. It was quite annoying and frustrating. It would also freeze up at other random times for no discernable reason.

So far, this is what I can tell:

PCs have games.
Macs have the good film editing software.
PCs have microsoft word.
Macs have iPod Rip.

[SOGG]

um... macs have ms office. at least os x macs.

[BlairH]

I have two rules for this situation:

The way I see it, is that Macs are for business, PC's are for pleasure. If you value security and professional productivity go for a Mac. If you want to play the latest games, go for a PC.

My second rule is that if you're going for a PC, it should either be be a self-build or made to order from a good company. There's really no-excuse for using a store-bought PC. Yes, it's a contraversial opinion, but I'm sticking to it.

Personally, i don't own any Mac computers because I'm a games maniac.

[Typo Lad]

Macs have had MS Office since almost day one, actually.

Blair: I find your logic amusing because it's almost the inverse of what used to be said: PCs are for work and Macs are toys.

It's funny how things change.

[Dan Apodaca]

Macs have had MS Office since almost day one, actually.

Well, all I can tell you is that my old roomate's computer didn't cooperate with MS Office at all. Maybe it's an exception, but there was no word processing to be done on that computer.

[Typo Lad]

Is it possible he just didn't install it? It does cost extra.

Do you recall what model it was? Or at least what it looked like?

[Smell]

Don't they say once you've had mac, you never go back?

I've had a mac since 1984, except for three years when I had a PC for some AutoCAD work.

Macs also crash, they burn out, you can't imerse them in water, except for iPods, you can put them in washing machines and they keep on working.

They are expensive, but they're top end machines.

As for OS crashes - os x crashed on me from 10.1 to 10.4, and Apple have rushed out releases and used users for beta testing. the swines.

Dom

smells like a grannysmith

[howyadoin]

Well, all I can tell you is that my old roomate's computer didn't cooperate with MS Office at all. Maybe it's an exception, but there was no word processing to be done on that computer.Definitely an exception. Hell, Macs have their own native word-processing apps now.

[pennywisdom]

I've been using nothing but PC's since the early 90's. I hate games and just use my computer for web applications, word processing, and possibly spreadsheeting. I only need a machine that runs quickly, efficiently, virus-free (I don't think I've ever used a PC without crashes, bugs, and flaws slightly damaging the experience) and simply right out of the box.

I never considered a Mac, because I thought they were mainly for home-video buffs and guys who make record demos at home. I'm seriously considering a Mac as my next computer after reading this thread.

How much more expensive are they? Right now, the PC I'm using is a cobbled-together mutt that my uncle assembled very cheaply from parts. It's fast and generally works well, but it has the usual PC hang-ups. I wonder if I would be better off making the jump whenever it comes time to get a new one?

[Typo Lad]

A Mac Mini costs around 600 if you want the latest model. powermax.com has some of the previous models for decent markdown.

[Brian Cronin]

I don't get it...I mean, Tadhg tells me this stuff all the time, but I guess it just never sinks in.

There's an actual significant difference between Macs and PCs?

I mean, I get that ___ works on a PC, and you can only do ____ on a Mac, but is any of it really significant?

-Brian

[Typo Lad]

Well, the differences at this point are all on the OS and Software level. The hardware's almost identical.

Fact is, with the exception of playing City of Heroes, Macs can do everything PCs can.

I'm trying to think of a Mac app that doesn't have a PC clone and am failing utterly.

[Brian Cronin]

Well, that's his thing.

PCs have to come up with clones, and presumably the originals are better.

He was telling me this while finding me a batch resizer for PC. :)

-Brian

[Typo Lad]

Your batch isn't big enough?

Sorry, superdickery.com forums injoke.

[SOGG]

one more thing to point out.

on the garbage collection model, OSX beats the Windows any day. Hibernate takes under 3 seconds to come back from on a mac. On a pc running windows, it takes about a minute. And yes, the memory sizes are equivalent.

Though that, as typo said, is an OS difference.

[Solaris]

Yes, by all means, do McDonald's.

Everyone has to get a little Mac in them, sometimes.

;) :D

[Typo Lad]

That's what Terri says.

[pennywisdom]

A Mac Mini costs around 600 if you want the latest model. powermax.com has some of the previous models for decent markdown.
That's hardly unreasonable.

Thanks for the info, btw.

[Shem the Penman]

Definitely an exception. Hell, Macs have their own native word-processing apps now.

I've never felt a need to get MS Office on my Mac when I can just write in AppleWorks and then use MacLink to translate the file into MS Word format if necessary.

Anyway: not really substantial but funny -- http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/07/14/notes071406.DTL

[Mac Danny]

Yes, by all means, do McDonald's.

Everyone has to get a little Mac in them, sometimes.

;) :D


Yeah.. Yeah they do..

MAC Danny