Getting to know Captain America and Iron Man

[TransformersFan]

So after reading New Avengers series, Civil War 1&2, and some previous Avengers trades (like Red Zone), I think I know Capt and IronMan, a little. But, only when they work in a team.

Can you suggest some trades that collect some defining moments for these characters, so that I may better understand their motivations and agendas in CW. They work so well together, what happened.

Thanks...in advance.

TFans.

[Shellhead]

Aside from being an almost bland icon that stands for truth, justice and the american way, it's worth understanding that Steve Rogers, aka Captain America, is an idealist from another time. He missed at least 18 years of the 20th Century while in suspended animation. Probably more now, due to the sliding scale of Marvel time. Since his return, the biggest defining moment was probably his disillusionment during the Marvel Universe's equivalent to the Watergate scandal. In the MU, Captain America discovers that the Vice-President is the leader of the criminal conspiracy known as the Secret Empire. This caused Cap to retire, then later return as the hero called Nomad. A similar incident years later caused Cap to renounce his costume again and become The Captain, reinforcing that Cap doesn't blindly follow orders, he represents the highest of ideals.

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Tony Stark started out as an industrialist and inventor who specialized in military technology. While observing how his equipment worked on the battlefield in Korea, Iron Man stepped on a landmine, and ended up with a fragment embedded near his heart. He eventually got an artificial heart and was able to return to his playboy lifestyle, up until a villain overrode his armor and caused him to kill an innocent ambassador. Tony beat that villain and also beat the murder rap, but developed a drinking problem, which he gradually overcame. Since then, he has been very concerned about maintaining control, even going to the extent of shielding his armor against all forms of outside control, even psionic attacks.

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Years later, Stark discovered that his old enemy Spymaster had stolen his technology and sold it off to numerous villains. Iron Man went on a rampage to reclaim or destroy all of the pirated technology, causing him to commit some questionable acts, like attacking SHIELD and disarming all of the Guardsman armor at the high-tech prison known as the Vault. During this story arc, Cap and Iron Man came into direct conflict. First they debated the matter man to man and out of costume, then came directly to blows in the Vault.

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While they usually work together well in the Avengers, Steve and Tony are very different individuals, in some ways like Superman and Batman. Steve is the optimistic, idealistic Everyman, as well as a tactical genius with a charismatic personality. Tony is the pragmatic businessman, who believes that sometimes the end justifies the means. They are both heroes, and most of the threats that the Avengers have faced are pretty straightforward, so they have a strong history of working together.

[Kirk G]

Excellent choices to recommend.
I would suggest picking up the Captain America trade called "War and Rememberance" if only because in issue #247, we set the record straight on who he is, why he was created, what happened to his possessions from WWII... plus some 8 great stories follow... including his run for President from 250!

As for Iron Man, that's more difficult. I don't know if his Demon in a Bottle issue has been collected in a trade, but in spite of that, you might try the Many Armors of Iron Man trade (or is it known as the Armor Wars?) for a sampling of Tony... but I think Tony has been redefined most recently in his last restart of the numbering... so you could find him in Iron Man #1-6 or in the second half of a flipbook at the 7-11 stores or similar convenience stores most recently. (Don't know if those arcs have been collected. HELP anyone?)

[Shellhead]

In terms of trades, Marvel hasn't done a good job of putting out trades for either Cap or Iron Man. Maybe the demand is lacking. There was an Armor Wars trade, but that's been out of print for years. The Cap-Secret Empire story arc hasn't been collected in trade format yet, even though it features some pretty good material, including guest shots by Banshee, Black Panther, and the original X-Men.

[TransformersFan]

Thanks guys, Ill look into getting back issues if the trades arent available.

How about some recent pivotal story arcs? Anything important pre-Civil War that helps define Caps and Iron Man social dybamics?

[Shellhead]

Thanks guys, Ill look into getting back issues if the trades arent available.

How about some recent pivotal story arcs? Anything important pre-Civil War that helps define Caps and Iron Man social dybamics?

Maybe New Avengers... I'm not reading it so I don't know. What I do know is that both Iron Man and Cap are written very differently in their monthly titles, so you won't see any hint of Civil War characterization showing up there so far. Marvel characters seem to be off in their own worlds except for the official crossovers like House of M and Civil War.

[Kirk G]

Yeah, I think there are some conflicts between Cap and Iron Man in the Korvac saga. Don't know which issue, but the two argue about how to procede as Avengers begin to fall. Or maybe it was the Collector story arc.
Can anyone assist with identifying the issues for us?

[Shellhead]

Yeah, I think there are some conflicts between Cap and Iron Man in the Korvac saga. Don't know which issue, but the two argue about how to procede as Avengers begin to fall. Or maybe it was the Collector story arc.
Can anyone assist with identifying the issues for us?

I can look that up on my Avengers DVD when I get home. I recently read that issue, and I'm pretty sure that you're right about it happening during the Korvac saga.

[TransformersFan]

who is the official leader of the New Avengers (mighty avengers)? Iron Man seems to take a leader role even thought Cap America seems like the logical choice. I wonder how many conflicts between the two have previoulsy arisen.

[Kirk G]

I think they worked real well together for years, until someone at Marvel under Jim Shooter's reign of the Avengers decided that if DC was going to have quarrels between Batman and Supes, that Cap and Iron Man should quarrel also.... therefore, we get the strife in the Korvac saga.

At least, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it... ;}

[Shellhead]

I think they worked real well together for years, until someone at Marvel under Jim Shooter's reign of the Avengers decided that if DC was going to have quarrels between Batman and Supes, that Cap and Iron Man should quarrel also.... therefore, we get the strife in the Korvac saga.

At least, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it... ;}

I'm not positive, but I think they first clashed during the Roy Thomas run. I will check that too when I'm looking at my DVD tonight.

[Shellhead]

Yeah, I think there are some conflicts between Cap and Iron Man in the Korvac saga. Don't know which issue, but the two argue about how to procede as Avengers begin to fall. Or maybe it was the Collector story arc.
Can anyone assist with identifying the issues for us?


It was Avengers #168. Cap gets mad because he perceives Iron Man as treating his role as chairman of the Avengers as a part-time job, spending too much time away working for Stark. Then things get really ugly.

Iron Man: ...all Avengers are guaranteed their personal privacy by our charter... wha?

[sound effect: "KANG!" as Cap punches Iron Man in the faceplate]

Cap: You low-life mercenary! Don't the Avengers pay you enough for your services?

Iron Man: That does it, flag-face!

Thor: Nay, golden one! Stay thy wrath! [grabs Iron Man's arms from behind]

Cap: [holding his hand in pain] Let him go, Thor! I've trashed dozens of armored foes in my time! He's just one more!

[Then Scarlet Witch breaks up the fight with a hex and starts shouting at both of them, especially Cap.]


I couldn't find a previous Cap-Iron Man clash in the Thomas issues. I may have gotten it confused with a brief physical clash between Thor and Iron Man in #130, when Iron Man wanted to fight Crimson Dynamo during a chance encounter in Saigon.

[Kirk G]

Excellent research, Shellhead!
Thank you.

Now, did that feel out of character for Cap or Iron Man?

[Babylon23]

In terms of trades, Marvel hasn't done a good job of putting out trades for either Cap or Iron Man. Maybe the demand is lacking. There was an Armor Wars trade, but that's been out of print for years. The Cap-Secret Empire story arc hasn't been collected in trade format yet, even though it features some pretty good material, including guest shots by Banshee, Black Panther, and the original X-Men.

Great suggestions Shellhead.

The Secret Empire Saga has been released in trade, probably about a month ago. Captain America: Secret Empire collects Cap #169-176. I'm assuming they'll do a second volume with the Nomad storyline in it.

Demon in a Bottle was collected in the Power of Iron Man trade. A new version of that trade, now called Demon in a Bottle, comes out this month.

Armour Wars was collected a while back, but I believe it's out of print now.

[Saotome]

Captain America also gave up his name,costume, shield, and status as he became the Captain in Mark Gruenwald's run.

He wanted to stay as Captain America for his own beliefs the dream, and yet the government wanted him to work for them.

[Kirk G]

Good news all around! Marvel's on the ball with these trades for people interested in background on the prime two characters!

[Babylon23]

Let's not forget the Essentials as well. Cheap, easy to find, and full of 60's Marvel goodness.

And MODOK.

[IMJ]

Regarding nothing more about these characters than the basic question originally posed about their dichotomy, I have a suggestion. Go put together the Operation Galactic Storm crossover as well as the two What If? titles that have an Operation Galactic Storm story.

Aside from that story which spells many, many things out, any further answer to this question will lead me to start quoting issues and citing issue numbers to go buy (particularly regarding Iron Man).

[Kirk G]

That's a good point. The pair split violently in Galactic Storm... though it was ignored later, I always felt that this was an earthquake waiting to happen...again... and I think it has...

[Shellhead]

That's a good point. The pair split violently in Galactic Storm... though it was ignored later, I always felt that this was an earthquake waiting to happen...again... and I think it has...

That split wasn't ignored, it was dealt with in Captain America #401, "After the Storm", the issue right after Galactic Storm. Troubled by the ruthlessness of certain Avengers involved with the apparent death of the Supreme Intelligence, Cap calls a special meeting to discuss ethics. Almost nobody shows up for the meeting, so Hawkeye takes the saddened Cap (out of costume) to a nearby bar to cheer him up. Tony Stark shows up, and he and Steve have a serious talk and patch things up.

[Kirk G]

Ah yes, I recall that now.
However, I never felt that it was fully resolved.
After all, to kill or not to kill, even an alien species, it a major value difference.

[Shellhead]

Ah yes, I recall that now.
However, I never felt that it was fully resolved.
After all, to kill or not to kill, even an alien species, it a major value difference.

Cap probably wasn't shooting Nazis with rubber bullets back in the Big One. While his Invaders appearances never showed him toting a gun, Cap was definitely using a gun in the golden age war stories.

[Kirk G]

Cap probably wasn't shooting Nazis with rubber bullets back in the Big One. While his Invaders appearances never showed him toting a gun, Cap was definitely using a gun in the golden age war stories.
Good point.

And knives, as well, even,though as the golden age stories were reprinted in Marvel's Fantasy Tales (1966-68) the knives were whited out, and stories altered to fit the then ruling CCA Comic Code Authority, which prevented a whole host of visuals that we take for granted now.... including vampires, injury to the eye, disection of human parts, shooting of bodies on camera, etc.
I recall one particular panel in about Fantasy #6 where the mad musician (violinist) had a knife in his upraised fist above his head, but after the code sensored it out, he had nothing above his head as he raved about what he was going to do to cap. (Why they didn't draw in a violin bow, I'll never know!):rolleyes:

[Leebenhouse]

Say Shellhead, why'd you say Korea is where Tony Stark got hit by shrapnel? Unless it's been retconned, it was in Vietnam he got his heart punctured/became Iron Man/first met Rhodey.

Also in the Adventures of Captain America graphic novel mini, Cap had a gun, and he used it to shoot people in the arm several times, although in one panel you see him distinctly shooting a Nazi in the head. During his weapons Training, he used his revolver(which makes no sense since by then the standard U.S. sidearm was the Colt .45 automatic...) to purposely shoot at the shoulder of the target, rather than the head or heart.

I'm more of a fan of the school of thought that Cap did kill in WWII, as there weren't a lot of superheroes in the golden age Marvel Universe(as copmpared to DC), but he only killed Nazi's, in battle. No offense, but what good is a Super-Soldier that won't kill? Isn't that a waste of government funding?

In The Truth mini the black supersoldiers did, and I think that mini is still compatible with the Adventures of Cap mini, which is a more modern deeper retelling of his origin. AND, not to mention that when cap gunned down that Ultimatum agent, he even stated that he had done that back in the war, but this was a different time, so it was regretful he did do that.

[Babylon23]

Cap probably wasn't shooting Nazis with rubber bullets back in the Big One. While his Invaders appearances never showed him toting a gun, Cap was definitely using a gun in the golden age war stories.

True, but there's a difference between killing somebody in battle, and executing them afterwards. The Avengers voted to execute the Supreme Intelligence after he's been defeated. I think this was a big part of Cap's problem.

[Leebenhouse]

I thought they were going to straight up assasinate the Supreme Intelligence?

But then again I never read all of Galactic Storm, and It's been some time since I read the Cap #400 that was a part of it.

[Shellhead]

Say Shellhead, why'd you say Korea is where Tony Stark got hit by shrapnel? Unless it's been retconned, it was in Vietnam he got his heart punctured/became Iron Man/first met Rhodey.


That's a good story from my favorite Iron Man creative team (Michelinie/Layton), but it's a retcon. Rhodey got retconned into Stark's past and even his origin, but he wasn't around at all during the 15 years of Iron Man comics.

Iron Man's origin takes place in Korea. We have had troops there for over half a century now, so there was no need to change Iron Man's origin, at least not yet. But in 1963, we had a relatively small force in Vietnam, and most Americans were only dimly aware of Vietnam at that time, including Stan Lee and company. So Iron Man definitely got his start in Korea.

Iron Man's origin got retconned in the early 80's to Vietnam, because Americans were extremely obsessed with Vietnam at that time, and it haunted our movies and music and politics for many years after we left Saigon in '75. In hindsight, it was a mistake, because now Iron Man needs to be pushed forward periodically to stay fresh or else retconned back again to Korea. As of this writing, the U.S. still has a heavy troop presence on the border between North and South Korea.

[Shellhead]

True, but there's a difference between killing somebody in battle, and executing them afterwards. The Avengers voted to execute the Supreme Intelligence after he's been defeated. I think this was a big part of Cap's problem.

When your evil mastermind opponent is basically a colony of interlocking dead genius brain tissue floating in some kind of nutrient serum, you literally can't just kick it's ass. It doesn't have one. You can either stand guard over it and hope that a bunch of aliens with superior technology don't come to rescue it, or you can kill it. That is a tough judgment call, much tougher than the current Civil War strawman dilemma, and I can easily see reasons why both Cap and Iron Man might be right about the correct way to handle the Supreme Intelligence.